Kelly's Favorite Conversations: Facing Your Enneagram Number’s Core Fear with Katie Gustafson (The Velvet)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Katie Gustafson is here. She is the Enneagram informed therapist
and coach has been on the podcast a couple of times.
Hi Katie, thank you for being back with us today.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh thanks for having me. I always love coming to
talk to you. Such a trull.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
We love having you on. I'm obsessed with the Enneagram
and I know so many of my listeners are as well.
And I initially reached out to you because it kind
of dawned on me when we were going through our
topic for this month, which is Cobwebs about Oh my gosh,
there are so many parts of the enneagram that we
don't dive into, and that includes the core fears. And

(00:48):
so when I was thinking about cobwebs and just the
Enneagram popped into my head because of some stuff that
I was going through, and I thought, this is such
an interesting take, like looking at the core fears of
each number and how much that actually is driving our behavior,
whether it's conscious or unconscious. So I had texted you
because you know, I've talked a little bit about this

(01:08):
on the podcast, but I've been going through some somatic
therapy which is life changing and just crazy and such
an interesting experience, but I went through a bunch of
traumatic events all at the same time, and so it
feels kind of crazy when you're like four years later
just being able to talk about things and work on
certain things. But that's where I am. And some of

(01:29):
it has to do with this public embarrassment that I
had on a reality TV show that I was on.
And for listeners that are new, they might be like, what,
I didn't even know this about her, and you've even said, like,
I know you so separate from that that it doesn't
even like dawn on me. But that was a part
of my story and it's something that I've been working
on a lot because I'm seeing how hard it's become

(01:51):
for me to like put myself out there, Like I
feel a little frozen in my public life that I
never have felt before this experience, and so I started
thinking about that because I was like, gosh, this was
so traumatic for me, yet I do see other people
go through similar things and not really have the same
reaction to it, and so I kind of started to

(02:13):
deep dive into why it was impacting me that way,
and the enneagram was one of the main things that
popped into my head because one of the core fears
that the number four is being misunderstood, and that was
like the main part of that story was there was
stuff that was being said about me that wasn't true,
and then the public was reacting as if and responding

(02:35):
to me as if that was a true statement, and
I just froze instead of being able to find words
or talk or do anything. It completely crippled me. So
it just got me thinking about this whole thing, like
how much do our core fears actually impact what we're
doing on a daily basis.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Totally thanks for sharing that, because that sets this conversation
up just perfectly. And I feel like, as hard as
it has been for you to revisit some of those traumas, Yeah,
I always think about when I think about fear and
how much it drives our behavior kind of steers the ship.

(03:17):
I think about. This is gonna like probably make you laugh.
Do you ever see the movie Batman Begins?

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Which one was that long time agour new nail.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
It's okay, okay, two thousand and five six somewhere on there, Okay,
So it kind of gives you the backstory on how
he becomes Batman, and he had this early memory of
falling into this cave on his family's estate. You know,

(03:50):
he's kind of out wandering too far. Yeah, and he
falls into this cave, little Bruce, and he is like
like getting his bare looks around and all of the sudden,
his vision kind of narrows in on this massive wall
of bats. They fly all over him, and it's it's

(04:13):
totally terrifying, right, I'm terrible exercise. Yeah right, so yeah, anyways,
the point of this story is that movie shows where
Bruce Wayne goes back into this fear of his He
revisits the cave that he had that traumatic experience, and

(04:36):
he purposefully, you know when he's able to, which is
years and years and years later, goes back into the
cave and experiences this swarm of bats and and you know,
kind of the Hollywood like dramatic way, he in that
kind of moment really becomes batman.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, like totally faces the feet, any kind of breathing it.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah. Yeah, in a very theatrical way. But it's such
a good picture to kind of reverse engineer this whole conversation.
You know, how do you work with the fear that's
specific to your enneagram type. We have to go back
into it in a safe way. And what you just
described in the work that you're doing four years later,

(05:25):
is you described going back into the fear, going back
into the emotional kind of overlay of those really really
traumatizing events. Yeah, and doing some healing work in that space.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well. And the interesting thing about that, the way you
just said that is a lot of people say to
me like why would you you know, like why why
would you go back into that? Like you can move
past it, you seem fine, blah blah blahlah blah. But
for me, I knew I wasn't fine. Like I know
that I'm not operating at a certain level that I'm

(06:00):
capable of or as my authentic self fully because I
can feel the difference, and I just know like the
only way out is through. I've just been taught that
for so long and I just believe it. That's been
my experience. And so if I don't go face it,
like to go back to your analogy, if I don't

(06:20):
go back in the cave, it's still there. It's just
like driving me in this way that's not necessarily in
my conscious mind on a day to day or you know,
minute to minute, but I want to like clear it out,
like face it, clear it out, and actually move forward.
And that's just been the way that I've dealt with
most things in my life. But people think I'm crazy,

(06:42):
like that looks really hard and painful and not fun.
But I just think fears can drive us in this
most like insane ways. Really it's just not worth it.
I'd rather face it and be done well.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
To me, that's the essence of courage, Right, It's really
kind of that opposite of fear. Or it's not that
you don't have any fear anymore, it's just that you're
showing up in spite of the fear. Yeah, And that's
what I've seen you do ever since I've known you,
is just to keep like showing up as honestly as
possible and live in integrity with yourself, which does include

(07:21):
a lot of meeting the fear and moving through the
fear and working.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
With Yeah, well, let's dive into the enneagram numbers and
the fear a little bit, but let's let's start with
why is it important to understand your fear? I mean,
because we kind of just touched on that, right. If
you don't look at it, it's that thing that's looming
in the shadows, but it's probably driving some of your behavior.
So is that something you see a lot with any

(07:47):
of your clients that you're talking to you about this
enneagram stuff?

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Absolutely, you know, our personalities. The enneagram is this dynamic
kind of grand theory or system, if you will. It's
a tool that we use to understand the nine core
personality types in the world, one of which we all
gravitated to, one of which each of us gravitated to
in early childhood. So you know, the personality is wild.

(08:17):
It's kind of this mashup of like temperament, innate qualities,
coping strategies, defense mechanism, affects, and our childhood experience really
helps to shape our personalities, and our personalities are protective mechanisms. Yeah,

(08:38):
it's just a big old survival strategy for planet Earth.
That's really kind of our personality becomes this kind of
survival strategy that we live out of based on whatever
was going on around us as little little people. As
some people had really steep staircases to climb, right, Yeah,

(09:02):
just didn't have the glaring kind of drama and trauma
and chaos, but we all had. We all had a landing,
no matter you know, how gentle it was or how
kind of ruckous it was. Like, we all have one,
and so our personalities are incredibly helpful tools. And really

(09:25):
the enneagram teaches that these personalities are defensive structures that
form around a lot of times a childhood wound. And
now this can be a literal wound, it could be
a perceived wound. But we all, you know, like we
come into the world and we are not fearful. Yeah,

(09:49):
like we're born into the world. We're not afraid. We're
just incredibly vulnerable. But we're open and we're curious, and
we're just kind of you know, moment to moment. It
doesn't take long, however, to realize that the world that
we live in and the people that are around us

(10:09):
are are less than perfect. Right, Yeah, it doesn't take
long for us to kind of kind of wake up
to this fact that this like I got to work
to get some of these needs met, and it's really
important for me to get the approval of others so
that I can fit in and belong and feel loved

(10:31):
and accepted. And so what is the most brilliant strategy
of doing that our personality and how the core fear
fits in. That is, if these defensive strategies form around
a series of events or childhood experiences as little people,

(10:52):
fear is going to be really really helpful in helping
us sniff out anything that remotely smells like that old wound.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Okay, wait, I have a question first, because you're talking
about childhood and how that impacts our personality. So are
we born a certain Enneagram number or do we kind
of like come into that?

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Is it like the nature versus nurture thing?

Speaker 2 (11:20):
I have friends in the Enneagram community that really believe
we're born with our type. Okay, I don't think that
that's the case. I think it's I think it's nature nurture.
I think we're definitely born with temperament, ye right, Yeah.
I have a four year old kid who is the
biggest extrovert I've ever met in my life, right at

(11:42):
four years old, and my husband and I are both
pretty introverted. Like, he has his own thing going on
that we have very little to do with, right Yeah,
So I think he's definitely like, we're all born with temperament,
with these innate kind of quality. But again, I think
it's a mixture it's a mixture of our early experience

(12:05):
as people. Okay, what was happening around us kind of attachment,
this feeling of did we have attunement with our you know,
original caregivers. What did that look like? Yeah, I think
it's both.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
So if that's the case, does some of it become
amplified about these fears like do we pick these kind
of let me think of how to say what I'm
trying to say. It's like, I'm thinking, Okay, I'm a four.
Did I become a four because of some things that
maybe went on in my childhood? And so then all
of a sudden, like I felt very misunderstood or whatever.

(12:43):
So you start to kind of build your personality around
these fears.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
I think it's it's again, it's like fours typically have
a more reserved temperament. Yeah, look at more to themselves,
kind of more attuned to their interior experience. So there's
a lot of temperament stuff going on. But yeah, I
mean to your point around this childhood wound of the

(13:10):
four has a lot to do with abandonment and either
having a perceived experience or a real experience of being
abandoned and not understanding that and so they make it
be about something that's wrong with them. So there's that wound,
and so what do little fours do? They learn how

(13:32):
to make themselves really special in the eyes of other
people so that they won't be left that they won't
they won't have to relive that fear. So that's where
the fear kind of kicks in.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Okay, I see, Yeah, so let's go back to number one.
Let's start back there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Type one's basic, and again, like for anybody that's new
to the system, we've done episodes that they can revisit.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, multiple episodes with Katie. If you guys, just put
in Velvet's Edge and Katie Gustafson, which I will put
in the description of this podcast so you know how
to spell. But you'll see that we've done just a
breakdown of enneagram numbers and then some other stuff about
some other drivers and the wings. I remember us talking
a lot about that. There's a lot of layers to

(14:24):
the enneagram, so if you are new, you may want
to go back and start with one of those. But
this is kind of like a deeper dive into something.
We were saying this before. I have never heard anyone
talk about the core fears in nyagram and to me,
as like even just the example I was giving earlier,
I'm starting to realize, oh, this is probably a major

(14:44):
driver for a lot of the things that I do.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, right, because again, fear is a protective emotion.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Totally, and we've all developed these survival skills. Yeah kids,
like you said, right.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
So the fear is really in it. It's kind of
own little organism trying to be helpful, trying to help
us stay safe. And that's that fight or flight. It
sounds like you said you froze.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
I was in fighter flight for a long time, and
then I think, yeah, it went into freeze. And that
was the thing I actually recognized more because I think
I've probably been in fighter flight for a long time.
So you get you do, you get a little more comfortable,
you know, And as what I assumed was like overachieverness,
but I actually think I was probably in flight a
lot of my adult life, just like I've got to go,

(15:31):
I gotta go, you know, like give me more coffee,
let me power through this. And then it just got
to be too much and I went into freeze, which
is like, well, why can't I get out of bed feeling.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, so Type one's fear being bad, be corrupt, and
really ultimately unworthy. A lot of times I hear ones
talk about an early experience where they were publicly humiliated
or embarrassed somehow, maybe at school or on the playground,

(16:03):
and so as little improvers, you know, they really learned
early on just how good it felt to do the
right thing, to stay in their lane, to be teachers,
little helper, to avoid any kind of situation that might
kind of reveal any kind of like unsavory part of

(16:27):
who they are. Yeah, so they develop these really rigid
kind of standards and ways of moving through the world,
and you know, in their most vibrant expressions, they're really
world changers, right because they are just incredibly committed to
making themselves in the world around them a better place. However,

(16:50):
just this fear of being corrupt and bad and kind
of found out is driving the show a whole lot.
And that really few, that perfectionism and that inner critic
that is so loud for Type ones.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
So the one is the perfectionist? Is that the right name?
So how do you see that manifests in people's lives.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
So many different ways? I mean in a good sense
or in an unhelpful.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Sense with the fear piece of it.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well, I think a lot of you know, I think
I think perfectionism is really all about fear. It's all
about fear and control right and control is like at
the heart of control is fear. So if I it's
kind of a little bit of a god complex. If
I don't do this the right way, you know, it's

(17:43):
not going to get done.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
It's all fall apart.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Nobody can do it like I can. You know. I
think ones their fear kind of keeps them stuck, and
this inability to delegate, and just this real hyper self
criticism in others, criticism because they're so afraid of the
just the humanity in themselves that could leak out sideways

(18:07):
and be miss misunderstood or mistaken for bad behavior, you know,
So they just stay so buttoned up, which is you
know that rigidity I think is a byproduct of fear, fear,
you know, unworthy in some way.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
So if there are ones listening, do you have some
feedback on maybe some tips to kind of get in
touch with this fear that's driving them.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
You know, I love using kind of the arrows, the
lines on the enneagram, if you look at type one,
they're the line that points to type seven, which is
where type ones go in security. And I think a
seven is such a good influence for type ones because
they're so playful, right, Yeah, they're so curious, and they're

(18:56):
so in the moment and when they're healthy. Right, it's
the high side of that number. So I think ones
can really kind of it's it's going to be hard
to just get rid of that inner critic. But I
think the thing that I love to encourage ones to
do is to practice curiosity instead of self criticism, to

(19:17):
practice playing first instead of you know this really like
hyper responsibility, to get the job done right, to really
loosen that grip of their personality and relax into this
kind of more curious, playful space where I think, I

(19:38):
don't know about you, but curiosity helps me stay out
of fear when i'm curally something and move towards it
a little bit more. I can kind of tease it
out a little bit more. But if I'm so bound
by you know, fear and control that is running the show.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
I love that point because or one of my I
don't know, if this isn't there, our mentor back in
the day told me just stay curious, like even about
my own behaviors, why I was responding certain ways to
certain things, And that shift in mentality, just that tiny
little stay curious versus like what you said, going into
the self criticism and all of that stuff, it does

(20:16):
make everything feel a lot lighter. And then a lot
of times you realize, and I would wonder if anyone's
listening would resonate with this, but you do realize you
don't really know how life is mapped out, like none
of us really know, you know, And so a lot
of times if you set your vision to something or
a certain way, it's going to be you kind of
miss all the opportunities there are for greatness. So kind

(20:40):
of staying curious versus really attaching to it has to
be done like the rigidity. Yeah, yeah, that makes a
ton of sense as it. Okay, let's move to the
the caretaker.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
So, man twos, in my mind are the type that
is most simplified, over simplified of.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
All the type of interesting.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Okay, So Type two's fear being unlovable, I mean I
think that to me, that's the core of they fear
being dispensable. So you know early on a lot of
I mean, I think heart types in generals twos, threes,
and four's had a love need that didn't get met,

(21:32):
but definitely type twos. So they spend their time and
energy kind of ensuring connection with others in relationships, and
this is often engineered by helping and by giving. You know,
I wouldn't say that twos can be just like kind
of drilled down to helpers. They're just they just want

(21:55):
to help. They just are helping, and they're just here
to help with the cast role in hand at all times.
It's like you like, I feel like twos they're like
we all are very complex, and so everything that they
do is really focused on other people. Okay, is on
other people. So their own personal needs and desires really

(22:17):
get they fall asleep to them really back burner, and
they're they're always wanting to maintain engineer this connection and
relationship to people around them, because this fear is driving
the show that if they did have their own needs
and desires, if they were really difficult and had boundaries,

(22:41):
that that might turn people away.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Oh, so they operate from a boundaryless giver place to
earn the love that they in the place in these
people in these relationships. Yeah, okay, So how much of
A two's behaviors are authentically what they want that want
to do now I'm confused.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Well, it's a really good question. I think healthy two's
are really have had to do the work of learning
how to set boundaries, learning how to say no, how
to spend time in solitude, like they go to the
you know, the type four, there's that growth path that

(23:23):
really invites them like you and I as four, as
we could just sit around and drink coffee on our
own all day long and have a big old time,
right the best day for me? Yeah, yeah, totally. And
I think for a two that's really scary to give
yourself that. And so again that's going back into the fear.

(23:44):
For them is really putting their needs first, putting their
desires first, spending that time going inward and quieting down
to that voice inside that I think was pretty shut
down early on. That's a big kind of invitation for
type twos to go against that fear, you know, because

(24:06):
I think growth, this healing work, as you very well
know this, but I think it's such a combination of
real just relentless self compassion. Yes, and also challenging the
limiting patterns that are at play in our personality. So

(24:26):
it's like both and we got to level self into it.
But there has to be a little bit of discomfort,
you know, because the work is going to go against
these very ingrained structures and patterns of behavior that we've
been living out of our whole lives.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Well and like you said, if we've picked them up
in childhood or they came from something that happened in childhood,
it's the story. Like you've heard people say, the story
in my head is, and it is, it's the story
in our head. But until we even recognize that it's
just a story, it's the driver all things. Yeah, and
you can't fully grasp oh there may be another story,

(25:06):
you know, like maybe this is just a fake story,
and I need to look at the other opportunities for
a different kind of story or have someone present that
to you. But stepping into that new narrative is really
really scary.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, that's so well said, you nailed it. I mean,
our personalities really do become the stories that we live
out of, well to like middle age, right, yeah, you know,
but these are stories that were made up by a
six year old. Right, So six year olds are really

(25:39):
great storytellers, but they're really shitty interpreters, right. They don't
have depth of insight, they don't have context. It's just
you know, it's like I see it all the time
with my son. If I don't get to eat this
popsicle before breakfast, I might die, Like I don't.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
You're like, you're not gonna die.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
I'm fine, let's just babystep this, you know. But these stories,
I mean, that's a silly example, but that's kind of
an example of some of these just wild stories that
we made up as little people in order to kind
of make sense of the world around us. Sure, and
things that we were experiencing that were a little scary.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah, And it seems like very black and white type
thinking because I think that's probably as when we're younger,
that is the only option, right, if this happened, then
that means this, and it's just like that's got to
be it. That's the only way that my mind can
wrap its head around this. And it, like you said,
if before would be like turn on themselves or whatever
it is. And so yeah, I think we like hold

(26:43):
on to those narratives and then you get into adult life,
and it's like, oh wait, there's a whole lot of
gray happening in adult life, and if you don't learn
to work with that, it can leave you feeling very stuck.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Well, what happens, I think is that these little personalities
have to grow and expand to kind of facilitate the
complexities of life as an adult, and they get so
overgrown that we can't tell the difference between our personnelity
and our true self. And that's where this work. That's
where the waking up happens. And sometimes that takes a

(27:19):
traumatic experience in your life to like get you into therapy. Yeah,
sometimes it takes a loss. Sometimes it takes a really
jarring event to kind of be that wake up call.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
All right, let's get to the threes.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Threes our neighbor. Their fear is failure as being a failure.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
The three are achievers, right, yes, sorry, are.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
The achievers performers, But yeah, it's it's this fear of
failure which would basically render them not valuable. Okay, So
early on, you know, they kind of garnered this life
and acceptance through their really impressive kind of achievements as

(28:06):
little people. They just learned how to do things just
really at a high level early on, and got so
much great feedback from this that they kind of mixed
up love with success. So they are walking around really
trying to maintain this sense of value for themselves. The

(28:27):
sense of success. Yeah, everything to do with what they
what they do, instead of who they are.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Oh it's so interesting. I love when we go through
these because you know, as you say the description of
each one or the core feir, I'm thinking of the
people in my life that have these numbers and if
anyone out there is a three or knows a three.
One of the things that I think I struggle with
my three friends the most is I'm like, Okay, you
seem exhausted. You need to take a break. Like that

(28:56):
sounds really easy to me to be like, Okay, I'm overloaded.
Now I have to take a break like those I
don't know if I would say it's easy, because I
struggle with that in the past. But like I can
see where those two things make sense. And I watched
my friends. They were threes really really struggle to lay
all the things down, like it's actually seems virtually impossible

(29:18):
for them a lot of times. But if they're equating
it to their love and value. I can see why,
you know, because they I would think somewhere in their
brain a three's story might be something like, if I
don't do this, then I lose all my love in
my life.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
Right, It's so interesting. I just had a client earlier
that or I guess yesterday, and who was a Type three,
and it was fascinating. She was saying, you know, she
has not connected to any type of passion of her
own since high school because it's like she was cut

(29:58):
off from this part of her that wanted to dream
and be creative and have passion because she just was
such an achiever and you know, coming from a family
with high expectations, high standards, and this client is not old,
you know, but like for the past fifteen years she

(30:20):
has been living out of this drive to succeed, succeed,
succeed well as you can imagine. Speaking of fear, she's
really hitting this place of kind of panic because she
can't do that. You can't maintain that humans ertainable. No
meant we're not meant to maintain that. It's unsustainable. And

(30:42):
so so a lot of the work with Type threes
is going into that fear but what does it feel
like to just be here? Terrifying? For a three, they
are so identified by what they do, just sitting here
as a human being is really uncomfortable. But it's going

(31:02):
into that fear. It's just slowly creeping in and saying
I'm just gonna I'm gonna babystep this thing. I'm gonna
tiptoe in.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah. And I think that goes back to sort of
what we were saying at the beginning about when people
ask me, well, why would you even go do all
this stuff? Like it seems painful? It's like you're fine whatever,
But are you first of all? And then second of all,
Like I think the question to always look at with
this fear driven stuff is, yes, you can still continue

(31:33):
to live with your fear driving you, but at what cost?
Like at what cost are we letting the fear drive
us by not facing it, by not sitting with ourselves,
Like what kind of quality of life do we feel
like we have? And is that worth it? Ultimately? Really,
on your deathbed, are you going to be like, gush,
I'm really glad that I you know, Like, what's gonna matter?

(31:55):
I guess those are the kind of questions I've been
asking myself.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, yeah, I have this little crochete. It's this hilarious
little thing that's framed out in the kitchen area of
my private practice, and it says, deal with your shit,
or your ship will deal with you.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
It's so true. Right, you can't run it. It's gonna
come up.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Right.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
We surely try, though we do.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
And threes. It's hard for threes because they they literally
oftentimes they're so good at what they do and they
look good doing it. Yes, it's so annoying, it's but
it's it's like they are those people that are on
the beach with their families on vacation and they've got
their laptops and they've they're their devices and they're taking call.

(32:42):
You know, just it's just an extension of who they
are because it's just been what it's been, the water
they swim in for so long. Yeah, it's so hard
to disconnect and slow, slow down and move closer to
that fear of what does it feel like to sit
in this moment and.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
Just be probably, who am I? If I sit in
this moment and just be totally all right? I'm kind
of touched on fours a little bit. But is there
anything we've missed with the force.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Something that's really interesting about the four story, this wounding
kind of story is again this like early, early kind
of perceived experience of loss of love. So there's just
something that happened, Like for me, I was really little
my grandmother. I was so close to her. She was

(33:34):
like in the second mom she lived with us. We
had this just special bond. I was about four or five.
She had breast cancer and she died at fifty eight,
and nobody explained it to me. I just it's like
one day she was there and then we were like
playing with her wigs, and then the next day she
wasn't there, and so I just was. I just felt like,

(33:56):
oh my gosh, there's such a loss here. This larger
than life, beautiful person in my life is no longer.
And then that feeling of kind of introspection that we
do all the time aspores is like, well, maybe maybe
I had something to do with this. No. So there
that's where this kind of this narrative of deficiency comes

(34:19):
into play, right, And so we do we spend a
ton of time trying to reverse this scenario by showing
up as really special and trying to find that ideal
person or relationship that will kind of repair this this
broken union with love.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Also, I wonder if any other fours are like me.
But I am like I always want to if someone
tells me anything about myself, I'm like, huh is that true?
And I want to I like deep dive into every
facet of myself. You know. Like my friends kind of
have a joke about how much self work and introspection
and all of the stuff that I do. It's like

(35:02):
I find it fascinating, But I wonder how much of
it is like an internal drive of so I can
fix myself so that I can be loved, do you
know what I mean? Like that's just a real honest like.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
But well, and that's it's such a comfortable place for
us to sit with those kind of difficult emotions to go.
You know.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
It's like, yeah, they don't scare me at all. Like
people are like I never want to feel sad. I'm like,
oh really, I don't really, it just is I don't.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Know, Yeah, I was life beyond sadness. Yeah, I completely
identify with that. It's it's always been such a such
a like fluid space for me to be in as
a client in therapy, and as a therapist, it's like
nothing shocks me, you.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Know, right right, So I resonate with that. All right,
let's move to our fives.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
So fives they fear being kind of useless and incompetent
and helpless. This drives a whole lot of their self sufficiency.
Fives are known as the investigator or the observer, and
they're just this type. My husband's a five, and they

(36:21):
are more at home studying and learning about any type
of topic from the cosmos to technology, to the animal
kingdom to current events. I mean, they're just they just
kind of hoover up information and knowledge in order for

(36:43):
them to feel safe and self sufficient. And so a
lot of times I hear that type fives early on
had this experience of being neglected or either engulfed by
their caregivers that they really needed in order to survive,
and so they just kind of in order to get by,

(37:05):
they did what they could with the little they had, right,
they became incredibly self sufficient, and that kind of drives
a whole lot of the stinginess that people experience with
Type fives, sometimes emotionally even materialistically. And it also explains
why type fives are often some of the most emotionally

(37:27):
cut off people from themselves and from other people in relationships.
So again they're trying to avoid the fear of kind
of being helpless, like they have felt early on.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
If they have all the information themselves, then they can
remain self sufficient and not rely on anyone else.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
That's it, Okay, It's so funny. My husband I joke
with them all the time. He has like a backup
of every single thing that we own in the house.
It's because if we lose power, we got to have
not just one generator but two. You know.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's like, nah, he's always prepared.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
He's always prepared. A lot of six going on there.
But there's just this kind of driving fear of I
really cannot count on anybody but myself, and that's why
I'm going to learn everything. Fives can spend more time
alone than any other type, even more than you and
I as fours. They need so much privacy and solitude,

(38:30):
and as a result, they end up being these incredible innovators.
They come up with just incredible inventions. Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking,
like Mark Zuckerberg, all these types of people who have
contributed so much to our culture through science and technology
and all the things. But fascinating people five, sixes, and

(38:51):
sevens kind of they live in the fear triad or
the head triad. So fear is even more of a
very prominent part of their kind of defensive structure.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Because that end of the head translated to more fear based.
That makes total sense because and we'll move on to
six with this statement, but like six is are known
to be the most fear driven number, Yeah, all of them, right,
So the five, six, and seven they operate from their head,
and so that's just like what over analyzing things like.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
That, planning, analyzing, you know, strategizing, all of these kind
of faculties that the analytical mind is so experienced and
of with. And so that is their dominant intelligence center.

(39:55):
Whereas for you and me, as four as two threes
and four is really we operate out of our heart intelligence,
our feelings. Some people call the shame triad. I think
it's sadness and grief that really kind of is the
dominant emotion, the go to emotion. And then for eight,
nine and ones, it's anger. So that's kind of that

(40:16):
anger triad. That makes sense because that's the body triad. Right,
So anyway, not to derail us, but yes, so sixes
are kind of at the core, they're kind of the
prototypical fear type of all types. And listen, I believe
that we are still around as a species because of
type sixes. Okay, you know, like they have been the

(40:38):
ones if you think about kind of this herd mentality,
they have been the people drive in the pack. They
are always on the lookout for any type of danger.
Their fear is a being without support and guidance, okay,
and so they are always always looking to solve problems.

(41:01):
But what happens for type sixes is that they also
as good problem solvers, they become problem seekers.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
I love that the way you just said that, because
I'm thinking of the sixes in my life and I'm like,
but don't they create problems too? Because I'm literally talking
to them sometimes and I'm like, this isn't a problem.
What are you what? They're like pre thinking a problem
that's not even there yet.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Totally and as little people. Six is really describe being
in kind of ongoing threatening situations.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
So a great example is like having an alcoholic parent, Yeah,
and not having like I mean literally having such an
anxious attachment. You know, you're like, I don't know, I
don't know what's going to happen when this person comes home,
and so of course there's a lot of pain around that.
So you know, six is are just constantly looking depending

(41:53):
on subtype. Subtypes for sixes are very very glaringly different
as they are kind of with fours. But you know,
they're looking to create as much safety for themselves, to
have guidance, to have safety and security, and they do that.
If they're kind of the phobic kind of classic sixes,

(42:14):
they go they run away from the fear, and they're
the counterphobic, which is the sexual six or the one
to one six, they kind of go against the fear
in order to feel safe and secure.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
What do you mean against it?

Speaker 2 (42:28):
So if you think about fight or flight, the fight
mechanism is a byproduct of that fear. Right, the fear
the signaling and we can either fight or we can
run like hell in the other right. Yeah, So the
kind of the one to one six is they are
very much going against that fear. They're not afraid to
fight it, but the fear is still there. The social

(42:50):
and the self pres sixes are more in the kind
of flee and freeze, so they kind of look more
like classic sixes.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
I just experienced a lot of hypervigilance with my friends
in our sixes. So what like just I'm thinking specifically
of two of my friends, and I want to be
able to give them some positive like insight into this.
But what would be a way for a six to
lay down some of the spear because it's so much
a part of their personality.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
A couple things. I think having a spiritual practice of
some type, developing kind of this inner security, knowing that
there is something out in the world that's bigger and
better than me, that is calling the shots, whatever that

(43:41):
higher power is. I think, developing some type of faith practice,
some type of spiritual practice that can really support them
in their fear necessarily numb the fear. But I also
think for for six is I do think what you're
doing getting into the body, Yeah, because a lot of times,

(44:03):
you know, fear, our bodies hold more memory than our
thinking minds.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
You know, my thinking mind have been over all the
stuff that I'm talking about for a while, right, but
my body can't get over it, and so then it
brings it back to surface in my mind, and I
can like logically go, oh no, that's not true, that's
not true. But until your body believes it, the fear
is still there and it's still driving so much of
your life.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Totally Doing some type of body work or somatic practice
is huge. Even just movement. Yeah, getting out of the
head into the body, Like, there's just I mean a
lot of us do from time to time just live
from the neck up and so really accessing the present moment.
You know, we can't be anywhere else but here if
we're really in our bodies. Sure, and so I think

(44:52):
that's huge. I think too. I Mean this sounds kind
of simplistic, but I really think Type sixes do really
well with some type of gratitude practice. I like to
tell my Type six clients, you know, if you're gonna
go to worst case scenario, do me a favor and
also go to best case scenario. Just balance it out

(45:13):
a little bit.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Yeah, write down all the bad things, but then write
down the good things too.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
I love that. All right, let's go to seven enthusiast sevens.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah, sevens. You would not really think of as being fearful.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
No, not at all. I don't know, it's want to
have fun.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
I know, they're just so bubbly and just magnetic and exuberant.
And they are that way because they're so afraid of
being trapped or in pain. Okay, so they've had to
become that way. Young sevens often describe a really difficult
relationship with one parental figure who is really dominating, really overbearing,

(45:58):
really stern. A lot of times this was this is
the maternal parent, this is the mother figure. And so
they kind of have this belief that this authority, this
this just dominating presence of authority limits them, takes certain
choices away, and so they believe that kind of authority

(46:19):
equals limitations. So what do they do. They kind of
keep things really up and open. Growing up. They try
to have no limitations. They try to as many choices
as possible, lots of options, right, Yeah, it's funny. It's
kind of why I wait to teach type seven till

(46:39):
the very end of any kind of like Enneagram class
or talk I get, because sevens it's hard for them
to sit still and listen to all the other types.
They're like, Okay, we just did my type, let's go
get brunch the next and so they just again, they
just have the fear that's driving them is they don't

(47:00):
want to feel trapped, you know, it's the need to
avoid pain. And so that's what sevens do. And I
think the thing that kind of that, you know, the
passion of type seven is gluttony, and so it's not
necessarily about food, but it's just it's like more is better,
like or options, more this, more that. And so really

(47:23):
part of the work is kind of reeling it in
a little bit and learning how to sit in the
present moment with whatever comes up and not try to
reframe or not try to find the silver lining, but
to just sit really literally to sit with the fear
of being trapped, of being without options, of being in pain.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
But see, okay, so if I'm a seven from what
you just described, I'd be like and why would I
want to do that? Like what so why would a seven?
How would it be manifesting in their life that if
they were operating from this sphere and not ever sitting
like you're talking about, Like, what are some ways that
we would see examples of this playing out in a
seven's life.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
They become unhinged.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Meaning a pretney spears, shaver head moment or yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Right, maybe they go off the rails. Okay, they can't
commit in relationships, they can't finish a project at work,
they don't like anyone to expect anything from them. They
you know, run through their inheritance, money, whatever the thing is.
It's like go big or go home. At some point,

(48:39):
the party's got to stop a lot of times. You
know this, the invitation for sevens is sobriety. Not that
you know, sevens are all dealing with addiction necessarily, but
that is a big way that it does manifest.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
I was just thinking that as you're describing it, because yeah,
you just want to run. If you want to run
from pain, you've got to find ways to do that.
So imagine addiction is a big part of sevens.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
And they go so fast. I think that's the difference
between sevens and nine because nines want to avoid two.
Seven's really like their energy is so up, they have
their it's so high. But you know, I think too,
it's like I would say, really famous people that are
have been type sevens, you know, somebody like Robin Williams.

(49:25):
It's kind of the ultimate death right.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, when you go so.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Hard and you become so disconnected from the truth of
who you are, but making everybody laugh and deep, deep,
deep depression that's happening inside that just becomes I mean
you literally become you're living out of two kind of
two different lives, and they're just too polar, right. So,

(49:52):
I mean I think that you know, sevens oftentimes will
have failed marriages, they'll have you know, job bloss they'll
have problems with substance, just kind of have this kind
of trail of flakiness, like flaky behavior and relationships. And
you know, after so much of that, you've got to

(50:14):
kind of like bring the mirror front and center and
kind of look at look at those blind spots that
are really driving the show.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
If you want a fulfilling life, probably yeah, and see
like you know that Jim Carrey moment and Dumb and
Dummer where he's got his hands in his ears and
he's like a la la la la la, like I
don't want to listen. That's what I imagine A seven
would be doing right now.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah. I mean, one of my best friends is a seven.
It's so cool because I'm so proud of her. She's
doing She's done so much deep work throughout the years
she's a teacher of mine, spiritual teacher and other realms too.
But you know, she's really like moving to that five
point of going into this place of studying this really

(51:02):
cool new program that she's doing getting a master's and
like she's just going in there and doing the sitting,
and she's got a big, big, heavy load, and she's
like a typical like a seven who has not done
their work would just be like dip in and out
of that because you know it's too demanding. But so

(51:24):
it's just such a picture of somebody who you know
is such an evolved type seven and can really like
sit in the weeds of Yeah, yeah, hammered out.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
Okay, let's talk about eights, because I find this one
to be a really fascinating number to talk about fear
with because what an eight, in my interpretation of an
eight and eight would not want you to know they're
scared of anything?

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Oh gosh, so true. I mean, I think one of
the words that people really kind of often use to
describe eight's is fearless. They just show up in the
world like that, they but they do. They do fear
being weak, They fear being controlled by other people. A
lot of eights describe their early childhood having some type

(52:10):
of like combative relationship or conflict where they had to
grow up super super young. I have a client who
is a Type eight, and she remembers being like seven
and and her mom was kind of checked out, and

(52:30):
they had she had a cousin that came to live
with her who was like special needs or just really
rambunctious and behaviorally a challenge. And so my client remembers, like,
and the mom couldn't handle it. The mom was like,
it's too much, I can't peace out, you know. So
she remembers when she was like seven or eight making

(52:54):
peanut butter and belly sandwiches for she and her cousin
to go to school with, and she couldn't even see
over the countertop.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
So here she is filling in this kind of role
as mom, as a parent, way before she needed to.
That's a story that I hear in different kind of
you know, different flavors across the board with eights. You know,
they had to grow up way too young in order
to survive, so of course they have to disconnect with vulnerability.

(53:26):
They have to disconnect from that childhood innocence because that
would render them weak, and they don't have to be
in control all the time. They just they just don't
want you to control them. Like they don't always have
to be the one in control. They don't always have
to be the controlling you.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Okay, they just don't want to be controlled. So as
long as it's not impacting them in any way or
affecting them in any way, they don't really care.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
It's not kind of cornering them. And again this is
we're talking kind of average levels of health for each
of them, right right, So in an average kind of space,
you know, type eights do not want they just don't
want to be controlled. They're not trying to control you necessarily.
Maybe sometimes they are, but they just don't want to
be careful.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
All the eights that I know are highly capable, So
that makes sense of like the growing up to fast,
and so they had to, like maybe am assuming, rely
on themselves a lot, and although become very capable in
taking care of them and then other people. And the
biggest struggle with my aides in my life has been

(54:41):
this fear of vulnerability or appearing weak in any capacity.
And like you mentioned earlier, their fear though doesn't manifest
in like a same way as a six, where they're
hyper vigilant and worrying. But when I see an eight
sphere kick in a lot of times, to me it
comes out as anger and just like attack.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, it's impulsive, instinctual, you know, because their body types
and they kind of overdo impact. They overdo their anger.
They tend to kind of move into action without even
thinking about the fear. It's there, but they're not sitting
They're not a head type that's sitting there thinking about

(55:23):
planning and strategizing to avoid the fear. They're just going
against it.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Right. My mom is an eight, and she always says
that eights are instead of ready aim fire, they're fire
ready aim like they think about it in a different way.
And that's been my experience is that if an eight
is triggered, they go into attack mode without really thinking
about all of the other things or even like, hey,
maybe this is fear driving me or not reality, you know,

(55:51):
like if it feels real to them, if the threat
is real, they are reacting unless they get to a
healthier place. But yes, it seems to be the case.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Well, and a lot of people think of type eight's
as protectors. So if it's not self protection, it's others protection.
So there's a lot. I mean, I think eights are
just fierce protectors.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah, so if.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
There is injustice or something happening, like they are, they
are on the front lines. Just like your mom said,
you know, it's they're already there. You know, they're not
sitting back there trying to figure out the best plan
of attack. They're just already there. And yeah, like you said,
they're they have more energy than any other type mm hmm.
They're tireless people, but you know, you can only run

(56:37):
from vulnerability so long.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Like, well, I was just going to ask that question
because when you said they're they have the most energy,
the immediate thought that I had was again, I'm talking
about my mom, who she is a very She's done
a lot of work on herself, so we're we're able
to talk about kind of these things because as a
four and an eight, she and I, but it has
a lot with me growing up because we're so different

(57:00):
and the fours we are such feelers, right like I
can get into every emotion and I can feel it
really deeply, and an eight kind of might struggle there.
And then my mom when she retired, was kind of
just facing like that life changed thing. There was a
lot of grief. She's been in her position a long time,
all the people she was leaving, and she said to me,

(57:21):
oh my gosh, I am so exhausted after this week
of like going through these retirement celebrations and all of
the sudden, she was like, is this what you feel
like all the time? And I thought, yes, that is it,
because I'm carrying not only like my feelings, but others
feelings you know as well. But I'd wondered how much
of an eight's energy is because they're shut off from

(57:43):
their vulnerability.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
That's a good question. I love that story. I think too.
They're they're the doers of the enneagram. Their body tech, right,
A lot of this is kind of almost like wiring.
It's their makeup. They had to move into action from
such an earth early age, so their tolerance is a
little bit bigger than the rest are. Yeah, and they're

(58:05):
used to such a high level, you know, because it's
it's all about impact. It's all about kind of challenging
the system. That takes a lot of strength, that takes
a lot of effort, And for whatever reason, I do
believe that there's something to that. As a body type,
they are just their energy is relentless. Yeah, and I

(58:28):
think that's a great point, you know, not going into
deep emotions of sadness and fear and shame and guilt.
I mean that that does free up a hell of
a lot of energy to go.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
To things, I mean, to your Yeah, an interesting thought.
All right, let's wrap this up and talk about our nines.
The Peacemakers nines are a lot like twos in many ways,
but definitely in their fears.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
It's all about this loss of connection. They had this
early interestingly enough, this early experience where their opinions didn't matter,
they weren't heard, and so perhaps there were siblings who
were a lot louder, or more opinionated, or more fiery,

(59:19):
and so they learned to regulate and to keep calm.
They had to go along with what everybody else wanted
to do, and that was kind of their survival because
their moo, it's all about like, let's keep the peace right, peace,
and there's not peace around me. So in order to

(59:41):
have peace, to order to be connected in relationship, I
have got to keep the peace. And so I am
going to deny myself my own agenda, and just merge
with the agenda of other people. That fear of loss
and connection is really kind of manifests in there's this

(01:00:05):
word indolence. It's kind of the fixation of type nines,
and it basically it's just kind of like, oh, I'm fine.
Oh yeah, it's good, We're good, life is good. Oh
we don't, we don't, we don't really need to talk
about that. It's it's kind of the self deprecating energy
that kind of downplays everything.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
And we're even in touch with what they're feeling or
are they just trying to get out of that? Like
does that make a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Times No, the fear is driving the show of you
know this, the fear of loss or disconnection. It shows
up in the passion. It manifests in this pattern of laziness.
And it's not necessarily physical laziness, but it is when

(01:00:55):
the energy is on everybody else and the house and
the dog and the you know the schedule and you
know the trip, they are full throttle. Yeah, but the
energy and the focus when the focus of a contention
comes back to the nine, when they are the focus
of attention, their energy is way down. That's where some

(01:01:18):
of that laziness comes in. And you know, they grow
up with this belief that you know, their presence doesn't matter.
Everyone else's presence is is louder. So sometimes they have
a lot of trouble kind of finding their own voice
because if they were to voice their own opinion or

(01:01:42):
have a strong opinion, that might result in disconnection and relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
So that's their main fear is being disconnected in the relationship.
So they will just almost become not a human in
the way of like their's feelings and opinions and all
the things, just to keep the peace so that they
can stay in the relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Yeah, a lot of Type nines see stay in long
term relationships way past the expiration date. They're so afraid
that they're going to hurt the other person.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
So what for type nines, Like, what tips would you
have with this stuff? Because the Nines that I know,
I find it it's almost crippling to them to step
outside of the sphere and they just don't want to
at all.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Well, doing self work is really important for type nines. Okay,
bringing the focus of.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Energy, oh, because then they have to look at.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Themselves right and it's you know, there are some nines
that it's a long road in therapy because you have
to acclimate them to their kind of interior space. Right.
It's because their energy is just like merging all over
the place with the people, yeah, really connecting them to

(01:03:00):
do they need?

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
What do they want? You know? Sometimes the hardest question
for type nine is how are you? You know, it's
because it's like, oh, I think I'm okay. You know,
they're just their focus is on others all the time,
and so I think it's bringing the focus of attention

(01:03:23):
back to themselves, you know, and it's taking action. I
think you know that for a Type nine, it doesn't
have to be massive action, but it has to be
some type of small action in the right direction. Otherwise
they just kind of numb out in order to just

(01:03:44):
because they fall asleep to their own agenda. Yeah, it's
all about other people's agendas. So you know, like I
always let my Type nine friends pick the place that
we're going to go eat dinner, you know, because otherwise
they'd just be like, oh, whatever's fine, I'm good with whatever. No, really, no,
it's your yeah, like you pick the place we're doing this.

(01:04:05):
That can be really hard, but it can be a
good exercise for type nines.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Oh isn't it true about type nines that they miss
type pretty often? Like it for I've known nines to
be like the one who has tested as multiple different
types and then someone's finally like, no, you're.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
A nine totally.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
But nines are so out of touch with themselves maybe
in their own feelings, that that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Yeah, that's a good point. I think that's pretty true.
I mean I see so many people mistyped walking around,
mistyped because they've just taken a free test online. They
haven't done the self work to really verify it for themselves.
So I see so many people misstyped anyway, But definitely

(01:04:51):
mines and two because they're very open, kind of curious
people like they're like, yeah, it could be true, and
that could be true. Like they right, Like they're also
called the mediators, so they can see all the sides. Yeah,
so sometimes it can take them a little bit longer
to really know their definitive type. I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Well, this is fascinating to me. So if you guys
have any more questions about the core fears, Katie, where
is a good place for people to reach out to you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
A good place is my website, probably Katiegustafsen dot Co.
Probably Instagram is where I interact the most in terms
of social media, be bad at all the others, but
estay consistent on Instagram. And then I have an online
membership platform called The Practice, and it is an Enneagram

(01:05:47):
based self care toolkit that is all about helping you
learn more about yourself, have more compassion for yourself, and
put the Enneagram into practice through really specific self care
practices for your type.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
I will put all that info in the description of
this podcast. For you guys, go check out Katie's page Instagram,
The Practice all of the things. Katie. Thank you for
being here with us today.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
You friends, this has been fun. You know I could
talk about this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Forever kinda me. See, we're such a Nagram nerds, aren't we.
Thank you guys for listening.

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Host

Kelly Henderson

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Kelly's Favorite Conversations: Facing Your Enneagram Number’s Core Fear with Katie Gustafson (The Velvet)