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February 14, 2024 43 mins

Kelly welcomes dating coach, author and founder of Date Brazen, Lily Womble, to the podcast to discuss a new perspective on Valentine's Day. Whether you are single or coupled up, Lily gives tangible tips to stop buying into the V-day Scam and comparison game that surrounds this holiday of romance. Lily's upcoming book Thank You, More Please also challenges listeners to build confident and joyful dating lives and relationships and breaks down simple steps to help you apply this to your life. She also discusses ways to have self compassion, to make this day what you want it to be and to always live a life where you celebrate yourself. 


Socials: @datebrazen 

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's
Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Lily Womble is a feminist dating coach, the founder and
CEO of Date Brasen, and the author of the upcoming
book Thank You More Please, A Feminist Guide to Breaking
Dumb Dating Rules and Finding Love. I love that title
about dumb dating rules, because aren't they stupid?

Speaker 3 (00:25):
So dumb? Oh my godness, oh dumb.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Lily, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
I'm so excited to be here. Kelly.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
We were just talking. We are both Southern girls, and
I said, you know, the dating world is different for
us Southern girls. Have you felt that? I know? Now
you live in New York City, right, I.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Live in New York. Now. I don't know if me
and my husband love relieve. We live in Brooklyn. We
love it. But he's from Texas as well. So I
married a Southern man, and I knew that I wanted
to find somebody who was connected to his family and
who had like the warmth that I remember growing up,

but who had chosen to live in New York. So
I think, I mean, I don't know what your perspective is,
but I grew up watching the women around me dying
on the vines, like older women, moms, dying on the
vines of unfulfilling marriages. Like I just was watching this
and the whole like you know, Southern thing. And maybe
it's not just I don't think it's just Southern, but

it's so prominent there with the church culture and the
Deep South like Bible Belt culture of you know, a
woman needs to be subservient to her husband, which I
really as a feminist, I would go to these weddings
as a child, Kelly and look around and be like,
oh no, no, oh no, no, I don't know about this.
I don't think that this is healthy for anybody right here. Yeah,

so it definitely And then going to school in Mississippi
for college and being in a sorority for a couple
of years and then quitting. I talk about that in
the book, like how that like ended in a fiery
hellscape because I realized that this this is some more
conservative organization and that I didn't belong really. Yeah, so yeah,
being a Southern woman definitely informs everything that I talk

about in the dating world.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah. Well, we mentioned now that you're the founder of
dating brazen, and so I want to you are here,
of course to talk about Valentine's Day, because this podcast
is going to be released on Valentine's Day, so we
have a lot of good nuggets for you guys on that.
But I want to talk about the work you're doing
now and kind of give the listeners a little bit
of a background. So you just said you're from the South,

you moved to New York City, you were a matchmaker?
Am I getting this right? Okay? I Actually it's so
fun because I don't meet a lot of matchmakers, but
I know these exist in the world and they're so helpful.
But then take it from there, how did your journey
come unfold?

Speaker 3 (02:46):
So the well being of women and girls has always
been my heart and my purpose, and I sort of
randomly I needed a side hustle in New York because
I needed to make ends meet, as you do, and
I landed at this national matchmaking firm. Of I thought
it would be hilarious, sorry about the Brooklyn noise outside.
I thought it would be a hilarious story about how
I was once a matchmaker. And then I got into

this job and I realized that number one, I was
really good at it, Kelly brag I became the third
most successful out of one hundred and sixty matchmakers at
this firm. And yeah, and I had hundreds of clients.
I was having thousands of phone calls with potential dates
for my clients. I mean, I learned so much. I learned. Also,

I think the most important lesson that I learned was
that dating was a microcosm of our well being as
human beings and especially as women. So dating is you
know how some people treat dating as like, oh, you'll
figure it out, like it's kind of frickless. Being sure,
it is kind of privolous, But I saw that it
was every hope, joy, dream, fear, insecurity, desire that we

have as humans.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
So I saw true.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Dating is this portal if I could help someone with
their dating life, yeah, well feel free, have agency, then
I can help them be well in their life period.

Speaker 2 (04:02):

Speaker 3 (04:03):
So at that point I was like, oh, I kind
of like working in the dating space, but in my
own personal life, my love life was a dumpster fire.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Isn't it funny? It's like the things we can't do
we're teaching. But then you're like, wait a second, what's.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
It's sort of the guy who felt like I had
a split personality. I would be on with my matchmaking clients,
be like, you deserve so much more, and then on
my own personal life, I would be like crying in
the bathroom of my then boyfriend's apartment, like silently and
and you know it, just I did not receive any
of the care or love that I wanted, but I

firmly am growing up in the Deep South, I wonder
if you can resonate or relate. I believed that I
was too much. Yeah, too intense, too bossy, too much
of a leader, too loud, too sensitive, and so I
was dating to like prove that story wrong. But in
doing so, I was attracting people who believed I was

too much because that's what I believed that I.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Was worth exactly. And they always talk about the mirroring thing.
We talk about that a lot on the podcast, Like
you're gonna draw in whatever it is, your soul is
ready to heal, and so you obviously were being ready
to recognize that in yourself and move past it. I
love that. So once you have this realization, though, then
what happens.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
Oh my god, So after a too long in that
relationship and I talk about all of the details in
my book of like really being in that relationship and matchmaking.
At the same time, I was about a after a year,
no longer willing to live in dissonance anymore. I just
felt so much cognitive dissonance. My brain was fighting itself
all the time. My parents were getting a divorce at

the same time. Uh. And so I got to this
breaking point where I told my therapist, like, I'm no
longer willing to live out of alignment and I need
to learn how to never settle again because this has
been my pattern, and I didn't know how to fix
that pattern. And I looked around for help. When I,
you know, courageously broke it off with that person with
the help of my therapist, I looked around for help.

My therapist hadn't dated in thirty years. She didn't know
what to tell me. My friends just told me to
download another dating app, just play the numbers game. Are
you sure you're not being too picky? Okay, that's not
going to work. Then I looked at matchmaking, which can
be a good solution for some people, but I needed
something so much deeper than a first date. Yeah, and
so I started to build my own solution. About seven

years ago, started to coach myself. I started to get
beneath the surface of the your too much story. I
started to practice self compassion for the first time. I
started to own my essence based preferences, something that I
was helping my matchmaking clients do for themselves, but I
hadn't done for myself. And so the magic that happened
is that I started feeling free and joyful in my

dating life. I started feeling flirty. I started giving my
number to cute waiters. I started like I at that
point came out as bisexual to my family and friends.
I was like coming into this version of myself that
felt so authentic and aligned. And then I started coaching
my matchmaking clients and they started to find better dates
and relationships for themselves than I or anybody else could

find for them. So the bonus that happened is a
few months later, I ended up meeting the love of
my life, my now husband, Chris, on a rooftop and
we've been together for the last six years. And six
years ago, I broke up with matchmaking to start date Brazen.
So now I get to help feminist humans build dating lives.

That are joyful and that lead to the right relationship.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
When you say that you saw your matchmaking clients helping
themselves through their dating patterns, what does that mean?

Speaker 3 (07:41):
What do you mean by well, I was like coaching them.
So I was like coaching them through how can you
overcome the paralyzing fear of being rejected? You're like, it
is a pretty pretty crucial How can you own your
preferences and just start asking for more out out Like
it's so simple seeming, but because as women, especially or

people socialized as women, we are socialized to want less,
be less, shrink, it can be very counterintuitive feeling to
start taking up more space in your romantic life, especially
if you haven't had much success before. So they started
to like make eye contact with people on the subway,
like ask people out, and like go be bold and
brave out in the real world. They didn't need necessarily

somebody setting them up on a date anymore, you know.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, So that's so interesting. So when you're getting to
the root of why, like you're driven by the things
you're driven by, you almost don't need the extra piece
at the end where they, like you're saying to get
set up on a date like you have to build
your own confidence, in your own understanding of self, and
then all of a sudden, the world completely opens up.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah. And not to knock anybody who has loved matchmaking,
it just for me. I wanted to help people become
their own expert matchmaker in that way.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah. So Brazen is now more of the coaching aspect
of that.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, it's all coaching. I have hundreds of clients, about
one hundred act clients in my program, the Brazen Breakthrough
Right Now and the book Thank You More Please, is
my proven process, like step by step from unpacking past
patterns that are haunting you, to detoxing from dating apps
and really detoxing from toxic patriarchal dating culture, to then

owning all of your preferences and starting to date in
person with main character energy and online with main character
energy so that you can make the right relationship inevitable.
So my program I coach people through is also exactly
what's in the book, which is why I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
The book is great, you guys. I got a pre
coopy and I've been reading it and I love it.
And I was telling Lily, it's so great because so
many times in this dating culture, it's like all of
these rules are all of these things that are just
so complex that I think a lot of people just
can't fully grasp it or understand it or even apply
it to their lives. And these are such tangible tips

and they're also it's probably because it's spoken from experience,
which to me is always the best kind of information
to get because you're like, you've lived it, you have
a success story, and also you've just learned about yourself
in the process. So she really speaks from that voice. So,
as I said to you before the podcast, we'll have
to have you back on when the book comes out
to really dissect the book. Today, we got to dive

into Valentine's Day.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Let's get into it. We got we gotta help people,
Let's let.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Us get into it. I feel like when I was
thinking about this podcast and having this conversation with you specifically,
I was like, she's gonna understand my gripes about Valentine's Day,
Like I hate Valentine's Day. I think it's so stupid.
Can we do like an overall understanding of why why
do we make Valentine's Day such a big deal? In
this culture.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Okay, I have such hot takes on this.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Kelly, Okay, I can't wait.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Okay, So if we do a macro look at why
as women or people socialized as women or people in
why do we play so much emphasis on romantic relationship
as the gold standard of human.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Existence and happiness and happiness? Yeah, like you nuke. It's
like almost like in our culture, people cannot accept that
you might be okay if you're not in a relationship.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
One of my clients said it so beautifully. She was like,
I'm treated as if I'm pathetic for wanting a relationship
and pathetic for not having had one already.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
So it's this double bind. So I think that just
like bringing awareness, it can bring some comfort. I think
to just bring some awareness to the societal pressure at
play that has nothing to do with you or your worthiness.
Because I don't think that a romantic relationship is a
marker of value. But the world treats couple people as
a head of single people. Oh and I think that

that's BS. I don't think that that's true at all.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, I feel like this Taylor Swift Travis Kelsey thing
is the perfect exam get into it. Well, it's just like,
I'm like, guys, are we going to stop talking about this? Ever?
This is like showing me just how almost love addicted
our society is because we're so wrapped up and just
obsessing over this fantasy relationship that we know nothing about

and the fairy tale of it. You know. It's like
it's almost like maybe it's people need the hope of
it so much, which makes me really sad about what's
going on behind the scenes of everyone's lives.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a hard both and I'm
a big proponent of the both and right either or
would say the either orer might say like, either I
want a relationship and then I'm desperate, or I'm fine
being single and I don't want a relationship at all,
which could be a denial of a deeper desire for
the partnership. Right, So a both and coming in the

middle could sound like for individuals struggling on this Valentine's
Day and you've got me in my southern accent now
not usually brought it out and struggling struggling Yep, yep,
you totally did. But I love it. So the both
and would sound like I want a relationship and it's
not here yet, and sometimes that can feel crappy, and

there's so much more to my life than this one
piece of it.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yes, yes, I agree with that completely, and I think
that it's great. Like I mean, I obviously have lived
in a place where I've been single. Listeners know this
for a while, and I really definitely want a partnership,
but I also don't want to settle, and so in
the meantime, I'm building the life that I want, doing
the things that make myself happy. But then there are

days like today Valentine's Day, where I think you kind
of start to question yourself a little bit, or you know,
the things come up where you're like, everyone has these plans.
I gotta make plans because if I sit at home
by myself, I might be sad. So let's talk a
little bit. We kind of touched on the v days scam.

But what do you think the veto scam really is?

Speaker 3 (14:03):
It is go spend money. I mean, that's the thing.
It's like that the the the wolve's been pulled over
our eyes. You know, it's not really about it's not
really about love and connection. I don't think in the
in the cultural narrative, it's about have it. It's about
going and spending money at a beautiful restaurant and buying
gifts so that you stimulate the economy. I think that

that's also why people that like top down are pressured
into getting married and having babies, so that like we
keep the we keep the status quo going of all this.
So I think just saying like, very similar to you know,
the pressure on TikTok that I've experienced sometimes to spend
money to live a certain lifestyle right right, that that
then creates more stress when I can just neutralize all

of it and be like what do I actually want,
what do I actually need? And strip away the noise.
I think that very similarly, dating apps are you know
that they're like quippy to designed to be deleted. Messages
of them all would have us all believing that dating
ass are on these streets to actually help people, when
in actuality they're original. Their deeper intention is to make
money because they're a you know, a company that is

owned by match Group, tender Hinge, not Bumble, but all
the rest of them to make money for the shareholders.
So really like stripping away the facade of these different
pieces of the dating world, Valentine's Day dating apps, to
really see beneath the surface and see like, Okay, what's
the intention of these structures or holidays quote unquote, and

how can I create meaning for me and create what
I want for me? For example, for Valentine's Day? If
you have this craving for love and connection, then how
can you create that now people in your life now? Right?
If you want to find the right partnership, how can
you not look to a dating app to solve that problem?

What if you just said, like, how can I how
can I be in control of this tool, you know,
and not be taken advantage of by a dating app
or the V day myth?

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, I mean if you're a manifestor or anyone that's
like a big proponent of energy, that is what they
say to do, right, to create the feelings that you
want for your future, for your relationships in your life currently.
So I love that to just like find the connection,
find the love. It doesn't have to mean that you
don't have that in your life in other areas just

because you're not in a relationship.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Tell me about Kelly, are you willing to kind of
ask you a question based on something you just said, sure, no,
I'm just curious. You said something that was like, oh,
I wonder what you mean. Okay, you said, I'm starting
to have pressure or like around Valentine's Day, like some
I'm afraid to be sad, or like the like deeper

stories that feel like, oh that's that story is not fun?
What were you thinking of? Like what trying of thought?

Speaker 2 (17:00):
I said that. I actually don't remember when I said that,
but I do think that in the past I could
say that there's been like I'm actually content in my
life right now, so I don't feel this, but in
other times of my life I have definitely felt and
this was a little bit when I was younger, still
kind of unraveling some of the Southern programming. I think

I'm just feeling like a failure on this kind of
day if I didn't have this perfect relationship, and actually
that this is the perfect transition into what I wanted
to talk about next, which is the comparison game, because
I think it can go so many ways, right like,
if you're single, you're comparing yourself to your friends and relationships,
or you can be in a relationship and you're still

on days like today, like, well, shit, her boyfriend took
her to this really nice state restaurant and we went
to Chipotle. Like it's like just constant comparison. And I
think that one of my narratives that I've had to
let go of is like this picture perfect Southern old
of getting married by this certain age having kids. My

life has just played out differently and now I'm really happy.
But at the time of releasing all that programming, it
was really hard. On days like today.

Speaker 3 (18:11):
Yeah, I think that comparison is so hard because it
feels like the truth, the capital T truth, that you
are behind or that you somehow are broken, Like, though,
what's happening in the brain. Let's just look at like
why your brain might be serving you those thoughts. Okay,
it's The function is self protection. The function is reshearsing

tragedy so that you remain in your safe zone because
it feels much more vulnerable to open up to hope,
oh my possibility.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
That just like blew my mind a little bit because
it's so true, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
Yeah, the function of comparison is safety.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah. I always say this on the podcast. Our brains
are doing everything they can do constantly to keep us safe.
Like all of our trick all the things we're worried about,
it's just our brain trying to keep us safe, which
is really actually nice.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
Well, it's that earnest like little person in us, the
little version of us who like literally couldn't advocate. I
think about my little self, you know, and not having
the language or the emotional maturity to describe what I
wanted or what I needed and not getting my needs met. Yeah,
And so the response to that was try to control

things or trying to perform in order to feel valuable
or you know, trading vulnerability for like I can be
vulnerable with you and then you can like me more. Right,
Like I was doing my best to survive. And so
if you look at if if you look at today,
and if you're feeling comparison with other people who are coupled,

really acknowledging that that's just a younger version of yourself
who just wants to be safe, and having compassion for
that version of yourself, compassion for her, and saying like,
because self compassion will stop comparison in its tracks. Self
compassion is not just like going easy on yourself. This

is something that I love talking about in my work
and my programs in my book, because self compassion is
not just like a fluffy thing to scientifically proven resource.
Twenty fourteen study out of Stanford found that self compassion
is a force that reduces cortisol, so reduces stress and
increases resiliency, two things that you definitely need to move

through any comparison spiral right, because what's happening is that
you get stuck in the idea that it's a fact
and you want to be safe. Then you're trying to
fix it when in actuality, to fix it, what you
need to do is stop and offer yourself self compassion,
which I can share like is three concrete things because
sometimes people are like, do self compassion and they're like, okay, how.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Like what does that look like? Yeah, okay, so give
some great things. I love that. The thing I want
to repeat that self compassion will stop comparison in its tracks.
If I was obrah, I would be like, that is
a tweetable moment if I've ever heard one, you know,
that is such a statement. I love that. Okay, now
go ahead.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Amazing, Okay, so first you know, level set, put your
hands somewhere compassionate. That's not one of the steps. It's
just like a you know, a thing to do when
you're getting ready, on your heart, on your belly, on
your lap, like put your hands on your and then
like unclench as much as you can in your physical body. Yeah,
the three steps which I am interpreting and I'm adapting

from doctor Kristen Neft's work who wrote the book Self
Compassion and as a Ted talk star. You know, so
number one kindness over judgment. So to me, that sounds like,
of course I'm struggling, right, of course, of course I
feel a comparison. Of course in step trying to fix it,
be like, shut up, be quiet, don't don't think that way,

Be like, of course I'm struggling right now. That makes
total sense. Give yourself the benefit of your context. I
was raised in the South. I was taught that a
romantic relationship meant that you were more worthy of of
course I'm struggling with this day. Number one kindness. Number
two community over isolation. That looks like getting your butt

with people that love you, like even mentally imagining yourself
surrounded by people that love you, or you know, calling
a friend. And that's why I do all of my
group all of my coaching in groups, because belonging is
a subtle proofing force. When you get in community, it
is an actively settle proofing force because if you're stuck

in comparison, comparison bee creates more isolation. It's like, I'm
the only one I'm broken, I believe, And then that
isolation is a version of small settling that I've seen
in my own story and other people stories leads you
big settling down the road, you know. So to really
solve for that isolation, you got to get in community

and belonging, even mentally if you can't be with somebody
physically in the moment. The third and final way to
practice self compassion is to notice thoughts not facts, so
to even like, jot down on paper, here are the
thoughts my brain is having. So many people avoid acknowledging
the comparison thoughts because they're afraid that it makes them
more true, or that it will like you know, be like,

it'll make it a confirmation. But if you just write
down what your brain's thinking and be like, ooh, these
are really hard thoughts and they're not facts. It's not
a fact that I'm broken. It's not a fact that
I'm actually behind and just then go through the self
compassion again, the kindness, the community, and then the thoughts
not facts that stops comparison in its tracks.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
It is so true about writing things down because so
often when I write down exactly what's happening in my brain, immediately,
just like you said, you're like, wait, that's not true.
Like it's like you just have to see it sometimes
because if you leave it in the head, you got
to like process it out, because if you leave it
in your head, like my head can get real dangerous,
you know, like the hamster I will just take me
eight hundred miles down the road of something that is

not actually ever even true. So I love that writing
it down one of the other pieces of the comparison, though,
I think that can kind of get triggered, or I've
noticed this with my friend groups is like that thing
where all your friends are asking, well, what are your plans?
Or like you go see your grandmother and the first
question is, well are you dating anyone? You know, Like
it's just this constant thing about what does your dating

life look like? What is your then relationship look like?
When you get in one? When are you gonna have
a baby, when are you gonna like all the stuff?
And so I love that you have started talking about
boundaries around your dating life and your relationships, having that
with just your nosy friends and family or anything like that.
So one, why do you think that it's important to

have boundaries around that? And then two how do we
do it?

Speaker 3 (24:50):
What is happening when you're asking for advice? Like, there
are a couple different areas, one being you're asking for
advice from your loved ones and relatives who you know
can't really help you in the way you need or
want to be helped. Right, Yeah, you know what your
aunt is gonna say, you know what your friend is
gonna say. They're gonna say it happens when you least
expect it, or they're gonna say, are you sure you're
not giving them too few chances or whatever. You know

it's not gonna work out, but you ask because you're
earnestly trying to build like some sort of community. You're
trying to figure it out, and maybe your brain is thinking, well,
they're in a relationship, so they must know something that
I don't know. False, it's false, Like just because somebody's

in a relationship does not mean they are qualified to
give you dating advice, okay.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Man to that truly, Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
And then what also might be happening is you know
you are when somebody asks are you still single? Or
why are you? How is your dating life going? You
might be sent into a shame spiral. Yes, is part
of you is fearful that something is wrong? Yeah, So
in both of those scenarios, I think there's an external

boundary to be set and an internal boundary to be set. Okay,
the external boundary with other people who are nosy or
who are trying to give you advice and you're like,
you gotta say I've got this.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Okay, So the cost.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
The confidence, the the you know what, dating is hard,
and I'm getting support for like I feel better than
I ever have about it, or I'm getting help with
like somebody who knows what they're talking about, like you can.
You don't even have to give them that. You could
just say I've got this and thanks for your concern
and then go get support in an aligned space with

somebody that you really trust or a coach or a
therapist so that you can be supported because it's a
very tender thing asking for help with your dating life.
And I want people who are asking for help to
be asking from people who are aligned with their values.
I don't want there to be you know, somebody given
you dating advice who just tells you to be less picky.

That's not in alignment with your power. So that's the
external boundary.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Go ahead, Yeah, I was to say in the book,
you even say like you were asking your friends for
dating advice, and it's like the blind leading the blind,
and I'm like, right, yes, Like why are we thinking
that my friend who's struggling with dating two has any
more information than I do?

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Oh yeah, And then you can get into the negative
spiral of conversation with your single friends, which then only
increases the confirmation bias of it is hopeless, it won't work.
So there's a lot going on there to set boundaries
around the internal boundary, especially if you get sent into
a shame spiral when you get asked about this is

reminding yourself. This is a feeling, it's not a fact.
I am like, the shame is trying to tell you
like you're broken, you're something to fix. Just reminding yourself, WHOA,
that's a really hard feeling. It's not a fact. I'm
willing to feel anything to be with you.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
To be with yourself?

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Is that what to be yourself?

Speaker 2 (28:01):

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Okay, because and that's a quote from Simone Soul, who's
a coach I love, but and I talk about this
in the book, but the shame spiral continues. Let's just
put you in your grandma's house and she asks about
your dating life, why are you still single? Whatever? And
then your body goes into like five flight freezer fawn mode.
Basically you're in a shame spiral. You're like, oh my god,

I don't want to talk about this and it's not
going well and how can she tell? And I don't
know what to do? And maybe there is something work
with me. The way to stop shame in its tracks
is to give yourself permission to feel it and to
let it pass instead of avoiding it for fear that
it's going to last forever. I do this in my
own life so regularly when I have a moment where

I'm embarrassed or i feel shame. And still I'm not
perfect at this, but the thing that's changed my life
is like stopping being like, hey, Lily, I'm going to
the bathroom. I'm willing to be with you right now.
There's nothing that you could say, do, or feel that
would make me want to stop being your friend. I'm
feeling shame right now. That sucks. It sucks. And then
the more I acknowledge it and just like take deep

breaths and see it in my body and like love
on myself through this moment takes three to five minutes,
and then I'm like, Okay, I feel more clear, i
feel less shame ashamed, I feel more empowered because I
have my own back instead of abandoning myself when I
have a hard feeling for fear that it is going
to last forever.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Oh that is so good because so often too, Like
my grandmother's the perfect example. And I'm sure my mom
is listening to this, dying laughing because we make jokes
about it, because it's just like the constant question, you know,
And I will be in a place of it doesn't
even I'm in a happy place, you know, or in
my life. I'll think that I am, and then I

get the question and I'm like, oh, it does. It
hits that thing, And then immediately you can go into
these shame spirals and you're like what narrative. Am I
attaching to this though, because it's just not the reality
I'm living every day. But when she asked me, it
all come back up and it's just old, you know.
So I love that staying with yourself, getting back grounded

and going wait, that's not even my narrative. I got
this right, It's just.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
A it's a hard feeling. Yeah, feelings aren't facts. They're valid.
You get to feel it, but like it may not.
Having the feeling of shame may not mean that you're
behind or that you're not as healed as you thought.
Like none of us are completely done cooking. So I think, like,
feel the feeling and you'll move through it and you'll
get back to grounded quicker.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, and everyone's on their own timeline. That's what I
always say to people. It's just like that is a
big Southern one, is like by a certain age and
all that stuff, and it's just like everybody's journey looks
so different on purpose, it's supposed to. We don't have
to do things exactly when Susan does things, you know.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Right, well, and if we sort of take a step
back and look at the historical context of women's so
women in romantic relationship. Yeah, it wasn't until nineteen seventy
four the women could get a credit card without their
husband's signature.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
You know, it did need to be married.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
So economically, the concept of you know, the concept of
being single was economically untenable for so many women until
very recently in our collective memory. So the idea of
got to be married by a certain age, got to
be partnered up is tied to a historical context of

like women had to settle until very recently, and you know,
and some people didn't settle, Like good for you. But
I just want to I want people to understand the
macro of this so that you don't feel, you know,
like you're unmored in your brain or like there's something
wrong with you. Like there's a reason that you feel
this way, and it's important to acknowledge it.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Did you say nineteen seventy four? Yeah, that is crazy. Yeah,
Oh my god, that is just like shaking me. That
is not very long ago.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Nope, Wow, nope. You know, there's been a revolution in
the last fifty sixty years and the way we talk
about women at work. Yeah, but there's not been the
same revolution about women in.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Dating no, not at all.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
That's why that's why I built my business, That's why
I wrote this book, because the dating space needs a
feminist revolution, not to like, you know, and not to
do the thing of like you know, on TikTok, there's
the women who are like, I'm not a feminist. I
can cook. I'm not a feminist. I enjoy, you know,
having my husband. Like, feminism is about collective freedom for everybody,

and it's about having the agency in our lives to
pursue what we desire and to create freedom for more people,
you know. So yeah, I think it's it's deeper than
the surface, for sure.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, I love that history for us. Talk a little
bit about if you are listening and you're like, I
just don't have plans tonight, like wow, what am I
gonna do? Kind of just yeah, you're hearing what we're saying,
which you're also like, yeah, and I still hate this
day and whatever. How do we celebrate ourselves?

Speaker 3 (33:16):
You know, like we're talking about nineteen seventy four, we
got We're like, we're going to how we celebrate ourselves? Okay,
how do we have a good day today? Here's how
to have a great day today? And to like feel yourself. Okay,
I have a couple of suggestions to choose your adventure.
Simple two minute practice. I call it twenty and two

where I want you to put grab a piece of paper,
set a grab a pen, set a two minute timer,
and try to write down twenty reasons why you're the
best and you love yourself. Okay, literally write, Try to
write down. Most people will not get to twenty reasons
and they'll be like, oh wow, that took me a
little longer than I thought. Some of you will be
like twenty five reasons, thirty reasons in two minutes. Just

try it and see what's on your piece of paper,
and then text a friend to do this exercise with you,
and then exchange brags, love, exchange why you love each other,
just like bring community in. Talk about this in a
dating context. That's a great exercise to do before a
first date or any time you need to kind of
get off on yourself a little bit, or like kind
of boost your self confidence because you are bringing so

much to the table. That's the twenty and two exercise.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Well, then I imagine if you share it with a friend,
like I just know the way that my friends are
we might be like, and you're this, and you're this,
and you start getting more feedback about great qualities about yourself.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yes. Yeah, that's the giving yourself permission to celebrate yourself
and to be celebrated.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Okay, done, You're going to do that.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
Just like so many people don't do it. You gotta
do it in your in your life and your love
life because your love life is about you.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah right, yeah, it is a reflection of you.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah. Another thing thing to do is just acknowledge how
do I want to feel today?

Speaker 2 (34:57):

Speaker 3 (34:57):
If I feel hopeless today, do I want to feel hopeful?
If I feel a little you know, anxious today, do
I want to feel grounded? And then, you know, if
anybody listening to this podcast has been on probably a
healing journey, a journey of self discovery. Y'all know what
makes you feel good?

Speaker 2 (35:16):

Speaker 3 (35:16):
Do something that makes you feel good. I'm I like,
whether that is masturbating, whether that is watching person rec
and ordering takeout, or like making a gorgeous charcoterie board
for yourself, whether that is randomly texting a friend, going
over to their house and just like hanging out and
drinking a mocktail or whatever, it is is like, you

know what makes you feel good, give yourself permission to
do that thing. Period.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
This goes back to bringing the energy you want in
your dating life into your life now, like whether you're
in a relationship or not. So if you're taking yourself
on these kind of dates, that's what you begin to like,
that's what you attract.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
Right, Yeah, well I think it is a worthiness question
for me. Yeah right, yeah, reminding yourself. I'm worthy of
feeling good, I'm worthy of feeling chosen. I choose myself.
I am worthy of feeling pleasure. I'm worthy of filling
the blank. Right, because the idea of oh god, this

has to suck until the dating has to suck, until
I just randomly meet somebody, I'm not good at it
and whatever that's keeping you, that narrative, it's trying to
keep you safe, but it's keeping you stuck. And so
giving yourself permission to actually feel good in your love life,
but before you ever meet your person will free you

up to attract more.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
I love that. Well. We've mentioned the book a couple
of times. It's called thank You More Please. I can't
wait for you guys to read it when it comes
out in June. Will you just tell us a little
bit some bullet points about the book and kind of
what people would find.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, absolutely, so, thank you more please. A feminist guide
to breaking down dating rules and finding love is my
entire process to creating a joyful af dating life life
that makes the right relationship inevitable. From stripping away the
patriarchical narratives of dating, the dumb dating rules that are
keeping you stuck, to really detoxing from dating app culture

and toxic dating culture in general, to really creating your
own rules. What do you need in your dating life?
What boundaries do you need to start setting? I teach
you how to do I mentioned this earlier, how to
do in person dating with main character energy, like how
to actually find love in person, which is how I
met my husband. How to also create a joyful dating

app experience, which feels counterintuitive, like is it is doable,
so possible, It's so doable, but in the moment it
just feels like we're even saying a language you speaking.
I have helped thousands of humans build dating lives online
and in person that are joyful and fulfilling and that
lead to extraordinary relationships. And so this book is exactly

the toolkit that you need to create a dating life
that feels his Brillian is the rest of your life
and that leads to love. So if you pre order,
you can pre order like literally anywhere, and I have
pre order bonuses at date brazen dot com slash book
where you can get coached by me. As a pre
order bonus, you can join the Thank You More Please Club.
We have a podcast listening guide and if you want

to work with me, I also have a free live
training coming up tomorrow February fifteenth, called creating a confident
and enjoyful as fuck dating life that makes the right
relationship inevitable. And so all that info we can we
can put I can share with you. It's at date
brazen dot com as well.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
I would definitely put that in the description of this
podcast for you guys. I do also know you have
a thank You More Please challenge? Yes, can you tell
the listeners about that?

Speaker 3 (38:42):
Okay? Put it on TikTok like middle of last year
and people went wild where it got millions of views.
I was like, whoaess, people really resonate with us. Yeah,
thank You More Please. Obviously, the inspiration for the book
is about building hope in or dating life and building actual,
tangible evidence that what you want exists. So instead of

swimming in hopelessness, instead of really staying and like what
I want isn't possible, or there isn't a man who
can meet my needs, or there's not a woman who
can meet my needs. This is not gonna happen. I
dare you. I dare you to go out into the
world for one week and look for a sliver of
evidence that what you want does exist. Right, it's working
off of the a sliver, a baby sliver because your

brain toxic positivity is like it does exist. Shut up,
don't don't be hopeless, right, that's toxic postivity and it's
not gonna work. Your brain's gonna freak out if you
try to force it into a belief that does not
feel grounded in truth. Which is why to change your
brain and to change your actions and to change your
results in your dating life, you gotta start with building

the evidence with the thank you More Place challenge. So
you go out in the world, you look for a
sliver of evidence. Acute Barista, you have a fluority conversation
with you see acut exiting a therapy office. You may
eye contact somebody cute on the street and you give
a little smile. After those moments, you just recognize it
and say thank you more please, and the universe is listening.

Just say out loud, thank you more please. Not only
will your brain start recognizing the evidence around you more
often because you're rewarding your brain with a thank you
more please moment, you also will start building a new
neural pathway in your brain that says, it might be
possible that the love of my life is on their way.

It might be possible that what I want exist, which
then creates more empowered action, which then creates more attraction.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Oh my god, Like it's that's what I was saying
about the book, Like that is like, yeah, of course,
why wouldn't I do that? But I would have never
thought of that. So thanks, Yeah, that is amazing. I'm
gonna do this tomorrow and actually moving forward, I'll start
my challenge tomorrow or this we're recording this early. Obviously
this is Valentine's Day, so maybe if you're listening, start

it with me. Let's do this. Thank you more please.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
I love that you more please. And I guess it's
like it's manifestation with very tactical action. Yes, I tend
to get lost in the sort of the like, Okay,
what do I do manifest Just go out of the
world and look for a thank you more Please moment
and say thank you more Please out loud. Even if
you feel awkward, even if you do it messy, even
if you feel nauseous like taking this action, still do

it because those that do it are not only telling
me they're building so much more hope in their dating lives.
They're attracting dates with this thank you More Please challenge.
They're literally approaching people in the real world. They're being
approached in the real world, and it's working for people.
So that's why the book is called thank You More Please,
because it's about this like permissive revolution to really give

yourself permission to want what you want and to attract
it with more ease and less hustle. And that's what
think you More Pleases about.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Well, again, I just keep going back to everything you're
saying reminds me of just when you put your self
in the position to feel the feeling that you like,
that you want and then I love it. You're acknowledging
it to the universe, like, yes, that is it, that's
the thing I've been looking for. Then it does. It's
just we're become magnetic for that kind of stuff. It's
so I'm such a big energy person, so that just

makes itat I love it.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
I love it. And it's also about like the more
please of it all is we don't have to settle
exactly to you don't have to just settle for the
scraps and be like thank you so much, just like,
thank you more please.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Let's go keep it common universe. I love this, Lily,
Thank you so much. These are such tangible tips for everyone,
including myself, and I'm so excited to try this challenge.
Where else can people find you? I know we said
the book comes out in June, and I'll make sure
to put that in the description of this podcast, But
where else can people find you if they want to
stay in touch in the meantime?

Speaker 3 (42:50):
Yeah, The Date Brazen podcast is my podcast. It's it's
the go to, one stop chop for all things feminists
dating advice that's going to have you feel and enjoyful
and finding amazing partnership. And then you can also find
me on Instagram and TikTok. TikTok is my main jam
at date, brazen, d at E B R A z N.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
And again I will put that in a description of
the podcast for you guys. Thank you so much for
being here and celebrating Valentine's Day with us.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
Happy Galentine's Valentine's I am grateful for this conversation, and
anybody listening know that I'm over here in Brooklyn believing
that what you want is possible before you. If you
can't believe it right now, I'm believing it for you
and you can just relax and have a good time
on Valentine's Day.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
I love that. Thank you for being here, and thank
you guys so much for listening.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Thanks for listening to the Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,
where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a
little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty,
and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.
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