Two-time Emmy and Three-time NAACP Image Award-winning, television Executive Producer Rushion McDonald, interviews Dr. Chuck Wallington. He is a C-Suite executive and a chief marketing and communications officer. For the past 12 years, Chuck has held leadership roles in the healthcare industry. Previously, he held leadership roles in the financial services and consumer-packaged goods industries. A Seat at the C-Suite Table is an insightful look at the leadership journeys of 30 African American male C-Suite executives.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to money Making Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's to show that she is the secrets of success
experience firsthand by marketing and Brandon expert Rashan McDonald. I
will know he's giving me advice on many occasions. And
in case you didn't notice, I'm not broke. You know
he'll be interviewing celebrity CEOs, entrepreneurs and industry.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Decision make because it's what he likes to do. It's
what he likes to share.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Now it's time to hear from my man, Rashan McDonald
money making conversations.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Here we go, Hi, there, this is Rashi McDonald. And
it is cold in the south. That's right. Move to
the south is won no, no, no, no, move to
the south. And it is very cold. So this is
my air in summer. I'm got me tell you something.
Why I'm doing this interview right now in January. It
is cold. So whenever you hear this interview, if it repeats,
(00:49):
it's cold when I'm doing this interview. So when I
finished the interview, I'll be snuggling up in my gloves
and my big hat and my big coat and going
home and getting in the bed. That's going to keep
you warm all night. Yes, I am Rowshan MacDonald. I'm
the host of this weekly Money Making Conversation Masterclass show.
The interviews and information that this show provides are for everyone.
(01:11):
It's time to start reading other people's success stories and
start living your own. My guest on the show today
is doctor Chuck Wallington. He is the author of A
Seat at the c Suite Table, Insights from the leadership
Journeys of African American executives. Please work with the Money
Making Conversations Masterclass, Doctor Chuck Wallington.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
How you doing, sir, I'm will Rashaan. How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And you someplace warned my brother, please tell me yes
I am.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I am not. I wish I were a Greensboro, North
Carolina and it's.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well, you know this is a climate change. Well I'm
experiencing the climate change because brother, it is a chili
chili chili. But I'm born and raised in Houston, Texas.
So I'm a Southern boy. So you're in Greensboro, so
you know that's that's the South too, So that there's
those statement that you so is woman in South. That's
not true today for you, nor I And how you doing?
You got a book out, book coming out? Tell us
(02:06):
about it right quick.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I am doing well and I do have a book
that's in the market and it's called A Seat at
the C Suite Table. And I was inspired to write
this book after having worked in corporate America for now
thirty five plus years. I'm still working in corporate America,
and I've always wondered, are there journeys for other people
who look like me the same as mine or are
(02:28):
they different? And so that's what inspired me to actually
write the book. And I reached out to thirty black
men who are currently working in the US corporations in
C suite roles, and I asked them if they would
share their leadership journeys with me, and they did so,
and this became my doctoral dissertation research and it's now
(02:49):
a book that's available in the marketplace today.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I have to ask you the question, why did you
not include a woman?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
You know what, there's been a lot of research already
about women and their stories are important for sure. As
a black male, though, I wanted to understand and to
highlight the unique journeys of black men. So that's why
I chose to narrow my focus and focus on black men. Now,
if there's a part two to this, who knows, maybe
(03:18):
that could then focus on the journeys of black women.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Well, you know, being a former employee of IBM, I
worked at two and a half years undergraduate two and
a half years graduate of undergrads in mathematics. So I
was a guy who's journeying in that direction to an executive.
But we all need to be educated. So what exactly
do you mean when you say c suite? What does
that What does that term mean?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Great, that's a great question. So that term broadly refers
to people who are the chiefs of the areas for
which they're responsible. So think of the chief financial officer,
the chief executive officer, the chief operating officer, the chief
marketing and communications officer. It's the most senior person in
an organization who's responsible for that particular function and the
(04:05):
collective of those So the eight or nine or ten
on whatever the small number tends to be, those folks
typically report to the CEO and they're the ones who
make the strategic decisions for the organization. So that's the
C suite. There are not a lot of people there,
and for people of color, it can be a challenge
at best to get there, and then you have your
own unique experiences once you're there.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah. You know the interesting thing about it, like I said,
I was it was, like I said, I went to college.
I graduated in eighty three. So I worked for IBM
from eighty three to eighty six. And so a good
is about mentorship, and that word wasn't used back then
as it is used today about who you turn to,
who you communicate, because that helps you, that helps you
(04:48):
total line, you know. So I had no one I
could turn to, even you know, there was above me.
I have people on my same level, you know, but
no one above me that can tell me, you know,
reach back and pull me up or tell me what
I had to do get up. Did any of them
discuss that mentorship availability as they will growing their career objectives,
(05:13):
you know, sending the ladder.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Yes, there was great conversation among the thirty of them.
And remember I interviewed them individually and I kind of
pulled the data together collectively. So Yes, one of the
themes was that these men would love to have had mentors, coaches, sponsors,
and allies. Some of them did and some of them didn't.
Those who did have mentors, talk very finally about the
(05:37):
role the mentors played for them, how the mentors opened
doors for them, how the mentors helped them to navigate
the corporate culture. For those who didn't, they talked about
how they yearned for mentors. Even today, even though they've
reached the c suite, many of them still yearn from mentors.
They talked about if you didn't have a mentor, how
they had to navigate the system themselves, had to figure
(06:01):
things out, how they had to figure out what the
culture of their organization was. And they talked about how
challenging it was. It wasn't impossible for them, but it
was more challenging. And they talked about how they just
wish they'd had mentors and sponsors and coaches and role models,
or at least more of them.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
For sure, I know it's very important I can. I've
shared my story of my experience of being hired full time,
because when you work part time, there's some you know,
there's some allowances on how you should dress, and because
you're in college, you know so, so they won't be
as saying they can be more accommodating to your clothes
that you wear. When I came on full time. Then
(06:40):
I still was in that college mindset, you know, kind
of when and it was a ibing when IV's a
M was really you know, you had to really dress
a certain way. You know, had to have that great
gray suit, their browsuit, that black suit, you know, that
blue navy blue suit, red tie, all that stuff, because
that was the that was the format that they had. Today,
a lot of people, a lot more casual people pitch
(07:02):
casual fridays a very major corporations. But I came on board.
And that's why mentorship is important. Nobody told me, Rashan Rashank,
You're not in college anymore. You're going to have to
change the way you look. So I was rolling through, Chuck.
I was rolling through wondering why I wasn't getting promoted,
wondering why I wasn't getting invited into any inner circle
(07:25):
meetings that I felt would benefit me to grow as
a potential executive, because at that moment, that's what I
wanted to be. I wanted to be an IBM executive.
I wanted to go up the food change. But nobody
told me. So I was walking in there with my
little stylish pointy toe shoes and then I have a
little my little skinny tie, and I would have I
wouldn't wear a full suit. I would have a little
(07:47):
blazer jacket. You know the pants they were they will fly.
You know. Long as the ladies said they were looking nice,
I was putting it on. You know what I'm saying, Chuck,
and so you know what I'm saying. So but I'm not,
I'm not. I'm just telling people was truth. That's when
you don't have people telling you of pulling your coattail,
telling you, young man, you look nice, but what are
(08:08):
you trying to achieve here? If I had sat down
to sir, I want to be an executive at IBM,
they told you where you're dressing wrong, young man. That's
what mentorship will do for you. And that's why I
want to bring it up because you can go through
the whole process. And I'm gonna tell you something. I
got hired with two white guys at the same time
and they were just flying through. But they were not
dressing like Rashan McDonald. They weren't as fly as Rashan McDonald.
(08:32):
They were playing the roles. They had the white the
white conservative Stacey adams On and conservative wing tip shoes on,
and they had the white shirts with the tide that
there was appropriately deemed the role you should wear when
you go into the corporate experience. And I had to
go and talk to my supervisor and he had to
(08:53):
tell me, Rashan in a professional way, because you really
can't tell anybody, hey, you're dressing wrong when you're in
the leadersh le. He just told me, you may want
to check how you are dressing. Look around, look around
at the leaders, look at around at the supervisors. Do
you see anybody dressed like you, ra Sean? And I
(09:13):
had to admit no. And when I admitted to myself no,
then I went out and bought me some suits and
went in the store. At the time, I could buy
three suits for ninety nine dollars each. And I came
back through that door and my life changed. My life
at IBM changed immediately because I played the role. And
(09:35):
that's what you're talking about in mentorship. And I'm pretty
sure those examples of what they were saying, if they
had somebody, they may not be extreme ast mind, Chuck,
but I tell you need some guidance when you walking
into an environment that is predominant.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
White that's true, So you have to have the guidance.
And certainly these men had some experiences as far as
dress is concerned, but their experiences with mentors or the
lack there went even deeper. So you know, when you
go into any organization, you know there's a culture, right,
there's a way that you do things in a way
that you don't do things. And some of it's how
(10:10):
you dress, but some of it's how that you act
and how you conduct yourself. Some of it's just the
more nuanced pieces of the white culture that some folks
perhaps haven't been exposed to. All of that's important, and
you have to learn how to navigate an organization's culture
in order to be successful. So again, these men talked
about how they learn how to navigate this white culture.
(10:33):
And if you pause and think about it for a second,
you know, the companies in the United States, for the
most part, were created by white men for the success
of white men, and so all the rules, all the
regulations are for the success of white men. So think
about what happens when a black man or a black
woman or some other minority comes into an organization. The
(10:56):
rules are already set against them, right, It doesn't mean
they can't figure them out, and many people do. It
just means it's a challenge on the front end to
figure it out. That's what a mentor or a coach
can help you do. And the men talked about the
advantage of having mentors and coaches, and for those who didn't,
they talked about the struggle and fortunately they were still
(11:16):
able to make it. So you're right, it's everything that
includes dress. But it's not just dress. It's that and
so much more.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Absolutely, I'm talking to doctor Chuck Wallington his book A
Seat at the c Suite Table, Insights from the Leadership
Journeys of African American Executives, and I, you know, it's
really interesting because, like you know, when I was you know,
I come from inner city. I graduated from University Houston,
which is in third Ward. I still hung out with
my friends. I pledged amegasci Fi fraternity Incorporated, so I
(11:45):
my black culture. I came from a black neighborhood. I
went to a white school. I was fortunate to be
a vice president's student body while I was there, so
I understood communicating with everybody. But it's still when I
got to IBM, I didn't have a role model, and
that's why I think the value of internship. Interning helps
(12:06):
as well, because I'm just talking about not just these gentlemen,
but we're talking about future. If you can intern at
a company, it will help you and I also lead
you into some mentorship roles, because I think your book
is about more so about these men, but also how
society is today and how you can take advantage of
some of the things that are available today.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Correct, chup, that's exactly right. And one of the first
things that you have to do if you aspire for
a seat at the c suite table is to take
the opportunities that come to you now. And so if
you are young and in college and thinking about business
as a career, that's great, And to your point, speak
out every opportunity to learn, go in, ask questions. Yes,
(12:48):
you want to be compensated for what you do, and
you don't have to come in making a whole boatload
of money as an intern. It's very okay to come
in and be compensated and then go in and figure
out what it is that you can learn so that
you become even better at what you think you want
to do. Internships also rule out things. So you may
go into an internship and think you want to pursue
(13:09):
one area. You may decide I don't like that, right,
you discover something else along the way. That is the
value and the beauty of an internship.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
It's really amazing how you sit down and you know,
I also encourage individuals to look at temporary employment opportunities
because of the fact, like you said, I remember I
used that a lot as well, Chuck, and laying out
my aspirations because working at a temporary job, if they
like you, then they'll keep you and hire you permanently
(13:39):
because basically, especially the day a lot of companies are
trying to avoid you know, unemployment insurance or laying people off.
They'll hire people through through the through temporary inssignments. And
the whole thing that this conversation is getting to that
C suite and just seeing is that the company for you?
Because I knew and I eventually left IBM, not because
(14:02):
of a bad company. It wasn't a dream that I
had for my life. I prefer entertainment. And that's all
you're saying as well, Chuck, is that understand the culture?
Understand is this your final goal is just the environment
that you want to aspire and the only way you're
going to do that is do interning mentorship as well
(14:23):
as job experience. Correct.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yes, that's true, And you made a reference here that
I'm going to follow up on. Think about the industry
that you want to go into. So I had never
thought about going into healthcare, and twelve years ago had
a chance to come into healthcare in a leadership role
and that's what landed me in my C suite role
that I'm blessed to hoole today. But I had never
thought about health care. I'd worked in financial services and
(14:47):
consumer packaged goods and I'm a newspaper reporter by training
briefly right out of undergraduate school. So I never thought
about it. But everybody owes it to him or herself
to think about what about the industry and can I
see myself in that industry? Can I get excited about
the work that happens in healthcare or in financial services
or whatever your industry of choice happens to be. And again,
(15:09):
for your younger listeners, the beauty of it now is
you don't have to have it all figured out. You
get to explore numbers of industry that you might be
interested in, and you will eventually land in one that
really resonates with you and speaks to who you are
and what you're passionate about.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yes, you don't have to go to find you a botanica.
You're that big old dictionary on that wall. Did you
have to look through all the different words and figure
out what's going on? I'm speaking to doctor Chuck Wallington.
He's the book. It's the book is the author A
Seat at the c Suite Table, Insights from the Leadership
Journeys of African American Executive. When we come back, I'll
be asking doctor Wallington, how did he select these mail executives?
(15:48):
You know he put them out of the hand, but
they recommend it. How did he find he found thirty
of them? Where did they come from? We write back
with more money Making Conversation Masterclass. My guest is doctor
Chuck Wallington. He's an author of the book book the
c Suite and get correct name A Seat at the
c Suite Table, Insights from Leadership Journeys of African American Executives.
And these thirty African American executives are male. How did
(16:11):
you line them up or how did they come into
your book?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
That's a great question. The headline there is there's a
God somewhere, And I say that with all sincerity because
when I started this research, I knew four, maybe five
of these executives myself, and I had a goal of
thirty and I said, you know what, I can get
to thirty. And the methodology that I used, quite frankly,
(16:36):
was as I would finish an interview with someone, I
would say, can you please refer me to someone else?
And so I got to the thirty because a lot
of the men that I interviewed and reintroduced me to
someone else. I'll also tell you that I reached out
to women that I knew and said, I'm doing this research,
(16:57):
can you connect me with someone? And I am surprised, Well,
I am not surprised, but women answered my call and
they really reached out, and they referred me to folks
whom they work with or people whom they know. You know,
a couple of cases, a couple of women referred me
to their husbands, and that's how I arrived at the thirties.
(17:17):
So I owe a huge debt of gratitude not only
to the thirty men, for saying yes, but to the
people who referred me to them for them to open
up and to share their story.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Well, you've read of God and faith and how we
get there. I know that faith for a lot of people,
they show it publicly and a lot of people, especially
in the corporate world, you can't really display your faith,
you know. And so how have faith played a role
in your life? And how do you allow it to
be shared amongst people when you're delivering speaking and gave
(17:50):
me or do you keep it within yourself?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
You know what, I have gotten to the point in
life where I am not going to keep my faith
to myself. That is a mean that I shouted from
the rooftop when it's inappropriate, But it does mean when
it is appropriate. I do not hide the fact that
I believe. I'm a Christian and I believe in what
I believe in. And so in the workplace, you know,
there are opportunities in one on one conversations to weave
(18:18):
in faith. There are times when people come to me
and they want to close the door and have a
confidential conversation and I will listen. I can tell if
people believe in a higher being, and we can we
can turn the conversation to that, and I can encourage
them to be prayerful about whatever it is that they
are concerned about. So I am not one to walk
away from my faith. And it is crystal clear to
(18:41):
me that you and I would not be having this
conversation right now if the God that I choose to
serve had not ordained all of it and set it
into motion. So I am thankful for that, and I
appreciate you giving me this chance to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Well, you know, it's really one that I want to have,
you know. And I was speaking with a good friend
like ylanda Adams gospel singing legend, and I was trying
to get her to define the main difference between business
and faith, and she said, rash on that one and
the same, you know, because you know you you know,
it's about efforts about applying, you know, consistency and a belief.
(19:16):
You know, if you believe in your business, you believe
in your faith. They are tied together. Is that something
that you can relate to? When when she says that,
because I really thought you had to separate them, now
you trying to bring them together? She said, no, don't
try to separate them, embrace them, and use them as
dual motivation for your ultimate goal. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
If what she says makes sense, and I'm going to
broaden it to work for me. So my faith is
a part of my life and who I am, right,
and I choose to not separate it as I go
through life. So I choose not to separate it from
what I do at work. I choose to not separate
it from home and family and friends. It is all
a part of who I am and part of what
(20:00):
matters to me the most. So that's how I choose
to look at it. I choose to not separate it out,
but look at it as you know, the way that
I am, and that's a huge part of who I am.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I mean, let me ask you, doctor Wallington. You know
DEI Diversity Equity inclusion. You know it's two years ago,
was really hammered. Oh and even Elon Musk has an
issue with DEI, and he's getting in public spats with
basketball owner Apartment used to be the owner of the
(20:31):
Dallas Mavericks. He recently sold the team about d I.
Does d I water down the accomplishment of the that
being achieved by c suite executives.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I don't think it does at all, because remember, C
suite executives were achieving things long before diversity equity inclusion
as we understand it now was a real, real, real
focus of conversation. So those achievements are what they are,
and I celebrate those who've done them. I think now
you know, diversity equity inclusion are a foundation for what
(21:09):
folks are striving to achieve, and diversity equity inclusion, in
my opinion, will always be important because there are gaps.
There are clearly gaps between the world that we live
in and function in the world that others are blessed
to live in and function in, and so D and
I simply acknowledges their gaps, and d and I says,
(21:30):
here are ways that we can close those gaps by
working together.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
You know, everybody has a title, No, every generation has
a title. You know, Like when I grew up, I
would just want to I'm asking you because you're in
the game, you know, and sometim lose. I'll only just
suspect I grew upative Affirmative action was the termed that
I grew up with, you know, And it feels to
me that DEI is affirmative action, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (21:58):
You know what that's I can see why you would
say that, And I don't know that I have a
point of view one way or the other. What I
will continue to come back to is that there are
gaps right right, They're clearly gaps between Again, I'm going
to talk about what I know. If you look at
the US corporations, you know there are gaps between positions
of power. Who holds positions of power, who gets to
(22:20):
make the decisions and doesn't get to make the decisions?
Their gaps there. And so again, what I believe diversity,
equity inclusion does is acknowledges that there are gaps, and
it gives us a foundation upon which to simply have
a conversation and say, if we all acknowledge their gaps,
what are we going to do to close those gaps?
And how can we work together to close those gaps?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And the reason I brought up my listeners or let
them know that, you know, it's so hard to achieve anything,
especially when you are personal color, especially a person who's black,
and especially if you're African American male. You know, not
the water down the achievements and say it's easier for
African American females. African American males do place a much
(23:04):
more crisis role in pursuing opportunities in the corporate structure
that's predominantly male driven by whites. You know, what is
the hopes for the next generation of black executives, doctor
Chuck Wallington.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
So I'll tell you my hopes, and I'll tell you
what the thirty men whom I talked to hope for.
So the hope is that for those of us who
are blessed to be in these roles now, that we
will continue to do our very very best in what
we have been asked to do and to leave the
door open for the next generation of people who look
(23:40):
like us. It's not enough to simply occupy these seats
and lead. It is extremely important that we occupy these seats,
that we're blessed to do well, and that we leave
the door open so that others can come behind us
and do even bigger and better work than we've been
blessed to do.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Go to this question. You know, the society were living
in race is at its highest. I think racial issues
of racial place itselfs out. The political climate is very
racially driven, you know, is you know you either this
side of the ledger or you this side of the ledger.
(24:22):
How can we close that gap trying to move forward
and just be recognized not that's the late doctor markin
Luther King would say, not by the color of our skin,
because it seems that we are still being judged by
that and that's not fair because when I walk in
the room, you know I'm not a white guy.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Right right, Well, I think the first way of closing
the gap is to acknowledge that there's a problem. If
there is a gap, and so there's that we have
to acknowledge that there's a problem or challenge or an opportunity.
The second is to then bring together the right people
and say, if we acknowledge if there's a challenge or
a gap, what are we willing to do as we
(25:04):
work together to close the gap. And again I talk
about that in the book towards the end. You're a
if you're a CEO and you know that you don't
have representation from black men on your leadership team or
anywhere in your ranks, you know, first of all, you
have to acknowledge as a challenge, and then you have
(25:24):
to be willing to put together a plan that will
bring in, you know, the right people, and then you
have to support them along the way. You have to
prop them up. You have to give them the infrastructure
so that they will be successful. You have to also
hold your other leadership colleagues accountable because if they have
opportunities or openings in their areas, are they interviewing diverse
(25:45):
slates of candidates to ensure that people who look like
you and me have a chance to introduce these roles.
If they are great. If they're not, that's a problem,
and what's going to be done about that? So you know,
that's one way to do it. Acknowledge that there's a
gap or a problem problem, and then bring the right
people together focused on generating solutions that will help the close.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Wow, how can we find How can we find this book?
Is it online? Is it the website? Help us out
right down? The book I'm talking about is A Seat
at the C, Seat at the Seat the Letter C
Sweet Table. Insights from the Leadership journeys of African American
Executives by doctor Chuck Wallington. How can we find it?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
This book is available online at Amazon or wherever you
buy your books online, but I would suggest that folks
go to Amazon and.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Pink up a copy.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Would love to have you do that.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Well, Doctor Chuck Wallington and I and George's conversation, I
hope we was moving for you. I learned a lot
and it's about exposing people to the next level of
opportunity and you're providing with this book. The book was
a very very good read, and I recommend it to
anybody who's interested in this form of knowledge and learning
because we always want to take the next step. In
(26:58):
your book allowed that through my reading.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Thank you, Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity, and I
wish you well, and I wish your readers well or
your listeners well.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Talk to you soon, and my friend, and be careful
and stay warm.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
My next guest, my next guest, he's on the call
right now. And let me just tell you I used
to be a little chunky dude till I met this guy.
So if you're concerned about losing weight, if you're concerned
about how to do it and still have fun, and
I have fun. He's my guests is coming up next.
Don't go nowhere is New Year's Residu New Year's New
(27:31):
Year's Resolution time. Everybody always said someone in wanting it's
about I think the number one is weight loss. Where
my next guest is the man to talk to. Please
come back to Money Making Conversations Masterclass.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
Thank you for joining us for this edition of Money
Making Conversations Master Class. Money Making Conversations Master Class with
through Sean McDonald is produced by thirty eight to fifteen
Media Inc. More information about thirty eight fifteen Media Inc.
Is available at thirty eight fifteen media dot com. And
always remember to lead with your gifts
Welcome to money Making Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's to show that she is the secrets of success
experience firsthand by marketing and Brandon expert Rashan McDonald. I
will know he's giving me advice on many occasions. And
in case you didn't notice, I'm not broke. You know
he'll be interviewing celebrity CEOs, entrepreneurs and industry.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Decision make because it's what he likes to do. It's
what he likes to share.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Now it's time to hear from my man, Rashan McDonald
money making conversations.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Here we go, Hi, there, this is Rashi McDonald. And
it is cold in the south. That's right. Move to
the south is won no, no, no, no, move to
the south. And it is very cold. So this is
my air in summer. I'm got me tell you something.
Why I'm doing this interview right now in January. It
is cold. So whenever you hear this interview, if it repeats,
(00:49):
it's cold when I'm doing this interview. So when I
finished the interview, I'll be snuggling up in my gloves
and my big hat and my big coat and going
home and getting in the bed. That's going to keep
you warm all night. Yes, I am Rowshan MacDonald. I'm
the host of this weekly Money Making Conversation Masterclass show.
The interviews and information that this show provides are for everyone.
(01:11):
It's time to start reading other people's success stories and
start living your own. My guest on the show today
is doctor Chuck Wallington. He is the author of A
Seat at the c Suite Table, Insights from the leadership
Journeys of African American executives. Please work with the Money
Making Conversations Masterclass, Doctor Chuck Wallington.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
How you doing, sir, I'm will Rashaan. How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And you someplace warned my brother, please tell me yes
I am.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I am not. I wish I were a Greensboro, North
Carolina and it's.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well, you know this is a climate change. Well I'm
experiencing the climate change because brother, it is a chili
chili chili. But I'm born and raised in Houston, Texas.
So I'm a Southern boy. So you're in Greensboro, so
you know that's that's the South too, So that there's
those statement that you so is woman in South. That's
not true today for you, nor I And how you doing?
You got a book out, book coming out? Tell us
(02:06):
about it right quick.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I am doing well and I do have a book
that's in the market and it's called A Seat at
the C Suite Table. And I was inspired to write
this book after having worked in corporate America for now
thirty five plus years. I'm still working in corporate America,
and I've always wondered, are there journeys for other people
who look like me the same as mine or are
(02:28):
they different? And so that's what inspired me to actually
write the book. And I reached out to thirty black
men who are currently working in the US corporations in
C suite roles, and I asked them if they would
share their leadership journeys with me, and they did so,
and this became my doctoral dissertation research and it's now
(02:49):
a book that's available in the marketplace today.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I have to ask you the question, why did you
not include a woman?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
You know what, there's been a lot of research already
about women and their stories are important for sure. As
a black male, though, I wanted to understand and to
highlight the unique journeys of black men. So that's why
I chose to narrow my focus and focus on black men. Now,
if there's a part two to this, who knows, maybe
(03:18):
that could then focus on the journeys of black women.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Well, you know, being a former employee of IBM, I
worked at two and a half years undergraduate two and
a half years graduate of undergrads in mathematics. So I
was a guy who's journeying in that direction to an executive.
But we all need to be educated. So what exactly
do you mean when you say c suite? What does
that What does that term mean?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Great, that's a great question. So that term broadly refers
to people who are the chiefs of the areas for
which they're responsible. So think of the chief financial officer,
the chief executive officer, the chief operating officer, the chief
marketing and communications officer. It's the most senior person in
an organization who's responsible for that particular function and the
(04:05):
collective of those So the eight or nine or ten
on whatever the small number tends to be, those folks
typically report to the CEO and they're the ones who
make the strategic decisions for the organization. So that's the
C suite. There are not a lot of people there,
and for people of color, it can be a challenge
at best to get there, and then you have your
own unique experiences once you're there.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah. You know the interesting thing about it, like I said,
I was it was, like I said, I went to college.
I graduated in eighty three. So I worked for IBM
from eighty three to eighty six. And so a good
is about mentorship, and that word wasn't used back then
as it is used today about who you turn to,
who you communicate, because that helps you, that helps you
(04:48):
total line, you know. So I had no one I
could turn to, even you know, there was above me.
I have people on my same level, you know, but
no one above me that can tell me, you know,
reach back and pull me up or tell me what
I had to do get up. Did any of them
discuss that mentorship availability as they will growing their career objectives,
(05:13):
you know, sending the ladder.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Yes, there was great conversation among the thirty of them.
And remember I interviewed them individually and I kind of
pulled the data together collectively. So Yes, one of the
themes was that these men would love to have had mentors, coaches, sponsors,
and allies. Some of them did and some of them didn't.
Those who did have mentors, talk very finally about the
(05:37):
role the mentors played for them, how the mentors opened
doors for them, how the mentors helped them to navigate
the corporate culture. For those who didn't, they talked about
how they yearned for mentors. Even today, even though they've
reached the c suite, many of them still yearn from mentors.
They talked about if you didn't have a mentor, how
they had to navigate the system themselves, had to figure
(06:01):
things out, how they had to figure out what the
culture of their organization was. And they talked about how
challenging it was. It wasn't impossible for them, but it
was more challenging. And they talked about how they just
wish they'd had mentors and sponsors and coaches and role models,
or at least more of them.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
For sure, I know it's very important I can. I've
shared my story of my experience of being hired full time,
because when you work part time, there's some you know,
there's some allowances on how you should dress, and because
you're in college, you know so, so they won't be
as saying they can be more accommodating to your clothes
that you wear. When I came on full time. Then
(06:40):
I still was in that college mindset, you know, kind
of when and it was a ibing when IV's a
M was really you know, you had to really dress
a certain way. You know, had to have that great
gray suit, their browsuit, that black suit, you know, that
blue navy blue suit, red tie, all that stuff, because
that was the that was the format that they had. Today,
a lot of people, a lot more casual people pitch
(07:02):
casual fridays a very major corporations. But I came on board.
And that's why mentorship is important. Nobody told me, Rashan Rashank,
You're not in college anymore. You're going to have to
change the way you look. So I was rolling through, Chuck.
I was rolling through wondering why I wasn't getting promoted,
wondering why I wasn't getting invited into any inner circle
(07:25):
meetings that I felt would benefit me to grow as
a potential executive, because at that moment, that's what I
wanted to be. I wanted to be an IBM executive.
I wanted to go up the food change. But nobody
told me. So I was walking in there with my
little stylish pointy toe shoes and then I have a
little my little skinny tie, and I would have I
wouldn't wear a full suit. I would have a little
(07:47):
blazer jacket. You know the pants they were they will fly.
You know. Long as the ladies said they were looking nice,
I was putting it on. You know what I'm saying, Chuck,
and so you know what I'm saying. So but I'm not,
I'm not. I'm just telling people was truth. That's when
you don't have people telling you of pulling your coattail,
telling you, young man, you look nice, but what are
(08:08):
you trying to achieve here? If I had sat down
to sir, I want to be an executive at IBM,
they told you where you're dressing wrong, young man. That's
what mentorship will do for you. And that's why I
want to bring it up because you can go through
the whole process. And I'm gonna tell you something. I
got hired with two white guys at the same time
and they were just flying through. But they were not
dressing like Rashan McDonald. They weren't as fly as Rashan McDonald.
(08:32):
They were playing the roles. They had the white the
white conservative Stacey adams On and conservative wing tip shoes on,
and they had the white shirts with the tide that
there was appropriately deemed the role you should wear when
you go into the corporate experience. And I had to
go and talk to my supervisor and he had to
(08:53):
tell me, Rashan in a professional way, because you really
can't tell anybody, hey, you're dressing wrong when you're in
the leadersh le. He just told me, you may want
to check how you are dressing. Look around, look around
at the leaders, look at around at the supervisors. Do
you see anybody dressed like you, ra Sean? And I
(09:13):
had to admit no. And when I admitted to myself no,
then I went out and bought me some suits and
went in the store. At the time, I could buy
three suits for ninety nine dollars each. And I came
back through that door and my life changed. My life
at IBM changed immediately because I played the role. And
(09:35):
that's what you're talking about in mentorship. And I'm pretty
sure those examples of what they were saying, if they
had somebody, they may not be extreme ast mind, Chuck,
but I tell you need some guidance when you walking
into an environment that is predominant.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
White that's true, So you have to have the guidance.
And certainly these men had some experiences as far as
dress is concerned, but their experiences with mentors or the
lack there went even deeper. So you know, when you
go into any organization, you know there's a culture, right,
there's a way that you do things in a way
that you don't do things. And some of it's how
(10:10):
you dress, but some of it's how that you act
and how you conduct yourself. Some of it's just the
more nuanced pieces of the white culture that some folks
perhaps haven't been exposed to. All of that's important, and
you have to learn how to navigate an organization's culture
in order to be successful. So again, these men talked
about how they learn how to navigate this white culture.
(10:33):
And if you pause and think about it for a second,
you know, the companies in the United States, for the
most part, were created by white men for the success
of white men, and so all the rules, all the
regulations are for the success of white men. So think
about what happens when a black man or a black
woman or some other minority comes into an organization. The
(10:56):
rules are already set against them, right, It doesn't mean
they can't figure them out, and many people do. It
just means it's a challenge on the front end to
figure it out. That's what a mentor or a coach
can help you do. And the men talked about the
advantage of having mentors and coaches, and for those who didn't,
they talked about the struggle and fortunately they were still
(11:16):
able to make it. So you're right, it's everything that
includes dress. But it's not just dress. It's that and
so much more.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Absolutely, I'm talking to doctor Chuck Wallington his book A
Seat at the c Suite Table, Insights from the Leadership
Journeys of African American Executives, and I, you know, it's
really interesting because, like you know, when I was you know,
I come from inner city. I graduated from University Houston,
which is in third Ward. I still hung out with
my friends. I pledged amegasci Fi fraternity Incorporated, so I
(11:45):
my black culture. I came from a black neighborhood. I
went to a white school. I was fortunate to be
a vice president's student body while I was there, so
I understood communicating with everybody. But it's still when I
got to IBM, I didn't have a role model, and
that's why I think the value of internship. Interning helps
(12:06):
as well, because I'm just talking about not just these gentlemen,
but we're talking about future. If you can intern at
a company, it will help you and I also lead
you into some mentorship roles, because I think your book
is about more so about these men, but also how
society is today and how you can take advantage of
some of the things that are available today.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Correct, chup, that's exactly right. And one of the first
things that you have to do if you aspire for
a seat at the c suite table is to take
the opportunities that come to you now. And so if
you are young and in college and thinking about business
as a career, that's great, And to your point, speak
out every opportunity to learn, go in, ask questions. Yes,
(12:48):
you want to be compensated for what you do, and
you don't have to come in making a whole boatload
of money as an intern. It's very okay to come
in and be compensated and then go in and figure
out what it is that you can learn so that
you become even better at what you think you want
to do. Internships also rule out things. So you may
go into an internship and think you want to pursue
(13:09):
one area. You may decide I don't like that, right,
you discover something else along the way. That is the
value and the beauty of an internship.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
It's really amazing how you sit down and you know,
I also encourage individuals to look at temporary employment opportunities
because of the fact, like you said, I remember I
used that a lot as well, Chuck, and laying out
my aspirations because working at a temporary job, if they
like you, then they'll keep you and hire you permanently
(13:39):
because basically, especially the day a lot of companies are
trying to avoid you know, unemployment insurance or laying people off.
They'll hire people through through the through temporary inssignments. And
the whole thing that this conversation is getting to that
C suite and just seeing is that the company for you?
Because I knew and I eventually left IBM, not because
(14:02):
of a bad company. It wasn't a dream that I
had for my life. I prefer entertainment. And that's all
you're saying as well, Chuck, is that understand the culture?
Understand is this your final goal is just the environment
that you want to aspire and the only way you're
going to do that is do interning mentorship as well
(14:23):
as job experience. Correct.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yes, that's true, And you made a reference here that
I'm going to follow up on. Think about the industry
that you want to go into. So I had never
thought about going into healthcare, and twelve years ago had
a chance to come into healthcare in a leadership role
and that's what landed me in my C suite role
that I'm blessed to hoole today. But I had never
thought about health care. I'd worked in financial services and
(14:47):
consumer packaged goods and I'm a newspaper reporter by training
briefly right out of undergraduate school. So I never thought
about it. But everybody owes it to him or herself
to think about what about the industry and can I
see myself in that industry? Can I get excited about
the work that happens in healthcare or in financial services
or whatever your industry of choice happens to be. And again,
(15:09):
for your younger listeners, the beauty of it now is
you don't have to have it all figured out. You
get to explore numbers of industry that you might be
interested in, and you will eventually land in one that
really resonates with you and speaks to who you are
and what you're passionate about.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yes, you don't have to go to find you a botanica.
You're that big old dictionary on that wall. Did you
have to look through all the different words and figure
out what's going on? I'm speaking to doctor Chuck Wallington.
He's the book. It's the book is the author A
Seat at the c Suite Table, Insights from the Leadership
Journeys of African American Executive. When we come back, I'll
be asking doctor Wallington, how did he select these mail executives?
(15:48):
You know he put them out of the hand, but
they recommend it. How did he find he found thirty
of them? Where did they come from? We write back
with more money Making Conversation Masterclass. My guest is doctor
Chuck Wallington. He's an author of the book book the
c Suite and get correct name A Seat at the
c Suite Table, Insights from Leadership Journeys of African American Executives.
And these thirty African American executives are male. How did
(16:11):
you line them up or how did they come into
your book?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
That's a great question. The headline there is there's a
God somewhere, And I say that with all sincerity because
when I started this research, I knew four, maybe five
of these executives myself, and I had a goal of
thirty and I said, you know what, I can get
to thirty. And the methodology that I used, quite frankly,
(16:36):
was as I would finish an interview with someone, I
would say, can you please refer me to someone else?
And so I got to the thirty because a lot
of the men that I interviewed and reintroduced me to
someone else. I'll also tell you that I reached out
to women that I knew and said, I'm doing this research,
(16:57):
can you connect me with someone? And I am surprised, Well,
I am not surprised, but women answered my call and
they really reached out, and they referred me to folks
whom they work with or people whom they know. You know,
a couple of cases, a couple of women referred me
to their husbands, and that's how I arrived at the thirties.
(17:17):
So I owe a huge debt of gratitude not only
to the thirty men, for saying yes, but to the
people who referred me to them for them to open
up and to share their story.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Well, you've read of God and faith and how we
get there. I know that faith for a lot of people,
they show it publicly and a lot of people, especially
in the corporate world, you can't really display your faith,
you know. And so how have faith played a role
in your life? And how do you allow it to
be shared amongst people when you're delivering speaking and gave
(17:50):
me or do you keep it within yourself?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
You know what, I have gotten to the point in
life where I am not going to keep my faith
to myself. That is a mean that I shouted from
the rooftop when it's inappropriate, But it does mean when
it is appropriate. I do not hide the fact that
I believe. I'm a Christian and I believe in what
I believe in. And so in the workplace, you know,
there are opportunities in one on one conversations to weave
(18:18):
in faith. There are times when people come to me
and they want to close the door and have a
confidential conversation and I will listen. I can tell if
people believe in a higher being, and we can we
can turn the conversation to that, and I can encourage
them to be prayerful about whatever it is that they
are concerned about. So I am not one to walk
away from my faith. And it is crystal clear to
(18:41):
me that you and I would not be having this
conversation right now if the God that I choose to
serve had not ordained all of it and set it
into motion. So I am thankful for that, and I
appreciate you giving me this chance to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Well, you know, it's really one that I want to have,
you know. And I was speaking with a good friend
like ylanda Adams gospel singing legend, and I was trying
to get her to define the main difference between business
and faith, and she said, rash on that one and
the same, you know, because you know you you know,
it's about efforts about applying, you know, consistency and a belief.
(19:16):
You know, if you believe in your business, you believe
in your faith. They are tied together. Is that something
that you can relate to? When when she says that,
because I really thought you had to separate them, now
you trying to bring them together? She said, no, don't
try to separate them, embrace them, and use them as
dual motivation for your ultimate goal. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
If what she says makes sense, and I'm going to
broaden it to work for me. So my faith is
a part of my life and who I am, right,
and I choose to not separate it as I go
through life. So I choose not to separate it from
what I do at work. I choose to not separate
it from home and family and friends. It is all
a part of who I am and part of what
(20:00):
matters to me the most. So that's how I choose
to look at it. I choose to not separate it out,
but look at it as you know, the way that
I am, and that's a huge part of who I am.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I mean, let me ask you, doctor Wallington. You know
DEI Diversity Equity inclusion. You know it's two years ago,
was really hammered. Oh and even Elon Musk has an
issue with DEI, and he's getting in public spats with
basketball owner Apartment used to be the owner of the
(20:31):
Dallas Mavericks. He recently sold the team about d I.
Does d I water down the accomplishment of the that
being achieved by c suite executives.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I don't think it does at all, because remember, C
suite executives were achieving things long before diversity equity inclusion
as we understand it now was a real, real, real
focus of conversation. So those achievements are what they are,
and I celebrate those who've done them. I think now
you know, diversity equity inclusion are a foundation for what
(21:09):
folks are striving to achieve, and diversity equity inclusion, in
my opinion, will always be important because there are gaps.
There are clearly gaps between the world that we live
in and function in the world that others are blessed
to live in and function in, and so D and
I simply acknowledges their gaps, and d and I says,
(21:30):
here are ways that we can close those gaps by
working together.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
You know, everybody has a title, No, every generation has
a title. You know, Like when I grew up, I
would just want to I'm asking you because you're in
the game, you know, and sometim lose. I'll only just
suspect I grew upative Affirmative action was the termed that
I grew up with, you know, And it feels to
me that DEI is affirmative action, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (21:58):
You know what that's I can see why you would
say that, And I don't know that I have a
point of view one way or the other. What I
will continue to come back to is that there are
gaps right right, They're clearly gaps between Again, I'm going
to talk about what I know. If you look at
the US corporations, you know there are gaps between positions
of power. Who holds positions of power, who gets to
(22:20):
make the decisions and doesn't get to make the decisions?
Their gaps there. And so again, what I believe diversity,
equity inclusion does is acknowledges that there are gaps, and
it gives us a foundation upon which to simply have
a conversation and say, if we all acknowledge their gaps,
what are we going to do to close those gaps?
And how can we work together to close those gaps?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And the reason I brought up my listeners or let
them know that, you know, it's so hard to achieve anything,
especially when you are personal color, especially a person who's black,
and especially if you're African American male. You know, not
the water down the achievements and say it's easier for
African American females. African American males do place a much
(23:04):
more crisis role in pursuing opportunities in the corporate structure
that's predominantly male driven by whites. You know, what is
the hopes for the next generation of black executives, doctor
Chuck Wallington.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
So I'll tell you my hopes, and I'll tell you
what the thirty men whom I talked to hope for.
So the hope is that for those of us who
are blessed to be in these roles now, that we
will continue to do our very very best in what
we have been asked to do and to leave the
door open for the next generation of people who look
(23:40):
like us. It's not enough to simply occupy these seats
and lead. It is extremely important that we occupy these seats,
that we're blessed to do well, and that we leave
the door open so that others can come behind us
and do even bigger and better work than we've been
blessed to do.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Go to this question. You know, the society were living
in race is at its highest. I think racial issues
of racial place itselfs out. The political climate is very
racially driven, you know, is you know you either this
side of the ledger or you this side of the ledger.
(24:22):
How can we close that gap trying to move forward
and just be recognized not that's the late doctor markin
Luther King would say, not by the color of our skin,
because it seems that we are still being judged by
that and that's not fair because when I walk in
the room, you know I'm not a white guy.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Right right, Well, I think the first way of closing
the gap is to acknowledge that there's a problem. If
there is a gap, and so there's that we have
to acknowledge that there's a problem or challenge or an opportunity.
The second is to then bring together the right people
and say, if we acknowledge if there's a challenge or
a gap, what are we willing to do as we
(25:04):
work together to close the gap. And again I talk
about that in the book towards the end. You're a
if you're a CEO and you know that you don't
have representation from black men on your leadership team or
anywhere in your ranks, you know, first of all, you
have to acknowledge as a challenge, and then you have
(25:24):
to be willing to put together a plan that will
bring in, you know, the right people, and then you
have to support them along the way. You have to
prop them up. You have to give them the infrastructure
so that they will be successful. You have to also
hold your other leadership colleagues accountable because if they have
opportunities or openings in their areas, are they interviewing diverse
(25:45):
slates of candidates to ensure that people who look like
you and me have a chance to introduce these roles.
If they are great. If they're not, that's a problem,
and what's going to be done about that? So you know,
that's one way to do it. Acknowledge that there's a
gap or a problem problem, and then bring the right
people together focused on generating solutions that will help the close.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Wow, how can we find How can we find this book?
Is it online? Is it the website? Help us out
right down? The book I'm talking about is A Seat
at the C, Seat at the Seat the Letter C
Sweet Table. Insights from the Leadership journeys of African American
Executives by doctor Chuck Wallington. How can we find it?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
This book is available online at Amazon or wherever you
buy your books online, but I would suggest that folks
go to Amazon and.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Pink up a copy.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Would love to have you do that.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Well, Doctor Chuck Wallington and I and George's conversation, I
hope we was moving for you. I learned a lot
and it's about exposing people to the next level of
opportunity and you're providing with this book. The book was
a very very good read, and I recommend it to
anybody who's interested in this form of knowledge and learning
because we always want to take the next step. In
(26:58):
your book allowed that through my reading.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Thank you, Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity, and I
wish you well, and I wish your readers well or
your listeners well.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Talk to you soon, and my friend, and be careful
and stay warm.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
My next guest, my next guest, he's on the call
right now. And let me just tell you I used
to be a little chunky dude till I met this guy.
So if you're concerned about losing weight, if you're concerned
about how to do it and still have fun, and
I have fun. He's my guests is coming up next.
Don't go nowhere is New Year's Residu New Year's New
(27:31):
Year's Resolution time. Everybody always said someone in wanting it's
about I think the number one is weight loss. Where
my next guest is the man to talk to. Please
come back to Money Making Conversations Masterclass.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
Thank you for joining us for this edition of Money
Making Conversations Master Class. Money Making Conversations Master Class with
through Sean McDonald is produced by thirty eight to fifteen
Media Inc. More information about thirty eight fifteen Media Inc.
Is available at thirty eight fifteen media dot com. And
always remember to lead with your gifts
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