September 26, 2018 • 41 mins
As more details come out about the level of ousted CBS head Les Moonves' wrongdoings, one thing is clear - gender based harassment doesn't have to be sexual.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you so. In our
continued coverage of the Me Too movement and all of
the wrinkles therein, we wanted to tell you that the
(00:27):
head of CBS, Less Moonvez, recently stepped down from the CBS.
Moonvez is a huge media figure. He oversaw the CBS Network,
which included shows like The Big Bang, Theory Sixty Minutes
and n c I S, the premium cable channel Showtime.
In the publishing house Simon and Schuster, he was also
a pretty big male vocal proponent of Me Too, and
(00:49):
in December he helped found the Commission on Eliminating Sexual
Harassment and Advancing a Quality in the Workplace, which is
chaired by Anita Hill. But according to a new Pie
spy who Else Ronan Pharaoh, six women who had professional
dealings with Les Moonvest between the nineteen eighties and the
late adds that he sexually harassed them or described forcible
(01:11):
touching or kissing during business meetings, and what they said
appeared to be a practice routine. Who said that Moonvests
physically intimidated them or threatened to debrail their careers all
said that he became cold or hostile after they rejected
his advances, and that they believed their careers suffered as
a result. So add another name to that creep list.
It's getting quite long. We could turn this show into
(01:33):
just like creeps mom never told you about? Yes, creep
some mom never told like yeah, which would not be
very fun to listen to, but important on it would
be informative, you know, having a having a updating creep list,
an updating creep list. Just hours after Ronan Pharaoh's piece
(01:54):
was published, Moonves was ousted from his role at CBS.
He will stay on as an advisor and CBS will
pay him one million if it's ongoing investigation fails to
find any evidence of sexual misconduct, which just doesn't seem
quite right. Yeah, so he's sort of a creep in
residence right now, exactly. It's got to have an on
(02:17):
site creep available at all times. Yeah, just in case. Well, Annie.
The Daily Mail actually points out that, according to an
SEC filing, CBS might actually be the one putting the
bill quote. Within thirty days following the termination day, the
company will make contributions and the aggregate amount of twenty
million to one or more charitable organizations that support the
(02:37):
Me Too movement and equality for women in the workplace.
The filing knows, so it does actually seem like they're
suggesting it will be a joint donation from Moonvez and CBS,
but CBS might actually be the one that's picking up
the bill. According to this filing, it's really upsetting and
kind of a predatory, an interesting predatory, I don't know,
(03:00):
like a way to hide what you're doing. When if
Les moon Bez was supposedly this big advocate for me too,
it's almost a way of hiding behind that when you're
creep really, oh for sure. It does not surprised me
at all that he was, you know, this vocal proponent
(03:21):
of me too and was propping up commissions to investigate
sexual harassment in the workplace while actively sexually harassing women
in the workplace. That's not surprising to me at all.
Just look at the former Attorney General of New York
who was a very vocal me too proponent while also
being terrible to women. You know, it doesn't surprise me
(03:41):
at all that he would be someone who is very
vocally supportive of this movement while also being a creep himself.
That doesn't surprise me. And it is a tactic that
I think abusers would use to sort of throw folks
off the trail and a sort of make them seem
like they are one of the good guys when they're
not well on a lesser on a lesser scale. It
(04:02):
kind of reminds me of when say, you're at a
bar and a guy approaches you and somehow it comes
up and he says, oh, I'm very very feminist, but
it's almost more of a way to like, oh, she'll
like this, like you're not really feminist, you just want
a girl to come home with you. Yeah. I have
this theory that men that use feminism to hit on women,
(04:25):
what they actually mean is oh I like women with
short hair, or like oh I'm you know. It's like
I don't think they mean what they think it means. Sure,
that's a good theory. Um. There is one thing that
we wanted to talk about that is sort of different
about Les Moonvez's case and his behavior, and it's that
(04:45):
gender based harassment is not always sexual. That's exactly right.
So these women alleged sexual harassment, groping, kissing, and meetings
that sort of thing. But when this story came out,
another wrinkle of it is the fact that he had
been derailing the careers of women. That it sounds like
he just didn't like, you know, they were mouthy feminists,
(05:07):
they didn't kiss his ass, and that he was such
a powerful figure that he systematically derailed the careers of
these women that might have otherwise gone on to flourish,
and that this was a big part of how he
treated women during his tenure at CBS. And I feel
like this is something that can really get lost in
the me to mix that harassment doesn't have to be sexual,
(05:28):
it doesn't have to be groping or kissing and things
like that. Sometimes it's powerful gate keeping men sabotaging and
derailing careers based on gender. And that's exactly what happened
with two women, Janna Jackson and Linda Bloodworth Thomason. So,
first of all, if you haven't read Designing Women showrunner
(05:48):
Linda Bloodworth Thomason, her piece in the Hollywood Reporter called
not all harassment is sexual, you need to. It's it
should be like a requirement for this episode. Oh my god, yes,
Like pause the episode and go read it. It's one
of those pieces where my you know that that that
um that sound effect that's in reggaeton musicorns. Yeah, I
(06:12):
was my feminist air horns were blaring after every paragraph,
every paragraph I read, and in the back of my
mind I was hearing because it was so good. Yeah,
and it's it's so good that it was a struggle
not to include the entire essay in this podcast. Yeah,
the episode could it has been us dramatically reading this
podcast with air horns sound effects, and I would have
(06:34):
been happy with the podcast that we've Maybe that could
be a bonus episode because that sounds like at a
reggaeton beat. Yes, yes, it'll it'll be the it'll be
the hot it'll be the hottest song in the club.
For like eight people who go to the club to
hear feminist essays read over music. Two of us included,
(06:56):
well Beyonce did it kind of true? Oh my, have
a remix of of a Beyonce song instead of we
should all be feminists this essay, I am here for it.
Just listen to this opening line. This is not going
to be the article you might be expecting about Les
moonvest It's not going to be wise or inspiring it's
going to be petty and punishing. In spite of my
(07:19):
proper Southern mother's admonition to always be gracious, I am
all out of grace when it comes to Mr Moonvesz.
In fact, like a lot of women in Hollywood, I
am happy to dance on his professional grade. And not
just any dance. This will be the macarena, the rumbach,
the moonwalk. You get the idea. I do get the idea.
(07:39):
It's so good. Also, can I say, because she is
the former showrunner of Designing Women, I don't know if
you'll ever watch Designing Women. This reads like a Julius
sugar Baker monologue. So if you watch that show, you
know the women were prone to, you know, feisty feminist rants.
I in my mind, Julius sugar Baker is reading this
and and with and you will never alter drapes in
(08:02):
Atlanta Again. If you watch Deciding Women, you get that reference.
You don't, You're confused, but trust me, it's great. And
all the while, there's the there's the hip hop horn.
This is a whole thing. We're creative. We need to
find Dixie Carter, the woman who played Julia sugar Baker, Delta,
Burke Beyonce, get them together, get a producer on it,
(08:23):
and and make this track. I'm telling you it will
be a banger. I think they're going to be. We're
not gonna have any trouble getting them on board at all,
not at all. If you're wondering, if you're not sure, um,
what's going on here? What Linda Bloodworth Thomason is talking about.
She's writing about how Moonvest systematically boxed her and other
(08:44):
women lad shows out of CBS. She writes, I was
never sexually harassed, are attacked by lesmon Bez. My encounters
were much more subtle in gendering a different kind of destruction.
Was given the largest writing and producing contract in the
history of CBS. It was for fifty million, involving five
new series, with hefty penalties for each pilot not picked up.
(09:08):
So after Moonves became president of CBS Entertainment, the network
didn't pick up any of her pilots. She writes. Often,
if he would catch me in the parking lot, he
would make sure to tell me that my script was
one of the best he had ever read, but that
he decided in the end not to do it. It
always seemed like he enjoyed telling me this. That's such
(09:28):
a sleazy move to go up to her and say, oh,
you almost had it, honey, but I changed. I decided
to go in another direction. I can sort of see
how that was meant to keep her hanging on and
hoping and fighting and wondering is it I mean, that's
almost like a it's almost like gaslighting, Like that probably
made her wonder, you know, is it me? Like what
(09:48):
am I doing? But if that was his tactic, that's
like a way to keep her always always holding out
hope that you know this time is going to be it. Yeah,
something on a much smaller gale. But similar happened to
me once where I um, I had gotten a pretty
decent for me role in a pretty big movie, and
the night I got there to shoot it, they had
(10:10):
me like waiting and watching somebody rehearse it over and
over again, and it was really cold night, and it
was late an hour's past and I'm kind of wondering
what's happening, and um, Eventually the assistant director came up
to me and he said, you know, I've been thinking
about it, and I really think we should give this
to the male stunt guy, and then he said something like, um,
(10:34):
isn't it isn't it difficult to work in an industry
that's all about your looks? And then they made me
watch them film it. It was awful. What an ass?
I know, like, that's what I'm saying. I think that
even so, that's so that sounds like it was a
very clearly gender base said it was about making you
(10:54):
internalize that you were not good enough in some way.
And I guess that's my point is that you know
this is this is gender based harassment. It may not
be sexual, but it is so toxic and pervasive and
it can really get in your head. And this we
should be interested in fostering workplaces where employees and people
(11:15):
who are on projects feel safe and secure and that
they don't feel like at any minute there's going to
be you know, um mind for them to walk on that.
You know, we should be promoting workplaces that feel safe
and people feel supported. And when you when you're in
a workplace where it sounds like this this movie set was,
or you're constantly being reminded that there's someone else who
(11:37):
could do your job and making you watch this happen,
you know that's that does not set up a workplace
where you feel safe. And it's even harder when you're
a woman, because you're already marginalized, so you're already feel
like you have a target on your back, and then
having to endure this, you know, it's just it's just
not good. I mean, it's not sexual harassment, but it's
so so toxic and it can really just mess you up.
(12:00):
I mean that if I had gone through what you
just described, I would have been mortified. I would have
been that would have it would have knocked my confidence
for so long. And again, who knows what the impact
that has on your career long term, right, And I
I just remember being in such shock, and I was
(12:20):
so cold, and I had to like walk back to
the room with all the other actors and crew, and
they asked me what happened? Why aren't you doing it?
And I couldn't. I almost couldn't find the words. I
just went home and cried. And it was such a
miserable because that was a big deal for me, that
that role was a big deal. And then the night
(12:41):
of for them to say no, I'll just give it
to this guy who's never rehearsed. I had to go
to like all of these rehearsals and anyway, Um, and
it's I won't be late at the point, but it's
it's such a it's so disrespectful. It's disrespectful of you
as a professional. It's disrespectful of your time, time and
the value that you put into your craft. You would
(13:03):
have been rehearsing, you you were physically there when this
decision was made. I mean, it's it's just so disrespectful.
It's just and it just cultivates this climate of gender
based disrespect that I think is I think as women,
this that probably sounds familiar to a lot of women listening, right,
this idea that someone would make this seemingly flippant choice
(13:24):
and it would just be this upholding of gross, disrespectful,
toxic bolshon that we find in workplaces as women. And
I hate it. It It makes it makes my skin crawl.
It makes my skin crawl as well. And um, it
sounds like before Moonvez took over at CBS, the network
(13:46):
was a better place to work, or at least it
had launched a number of groundbreaking feminist TV shows, including
the Mary Tyler Moore Show, Maud and Murphy Brown. But
bloodworth Thomasin points out that Moonvez ushered in the c
s I era, which is basically shows about women being
victimized by men. Though I have to say I do
(14:08):
love me some Law and Order which is on NBC.
Uh so a little bit of a problematic faith there.
I agree, I agree with her assessment, but I have
to say, like, I don't want anyone calling me out
on Twitter when that when I'm tweeting about how much
I love Law and Order because it is my guilty pleasure.
She says that she doesn't know what happened to all
the women lad shows at CBS, but she writes, I
(14:29):
just know that the likes of them have rarely been
seen on that network. Again thanks to Les Moonvess, I
can only guess they all became vastional swabs in crime
labs on c s I Amarillo, which is again a
pretty good line. That's that's epic. Yeah, to make matters worse.
When she left CBS, blood Worth Thomason said Moonvez agreed
(14:49):
to pay only a fraction of the penalties due for
failing to pick up her pilots. When her agent asked
the executive what he should tell his client, she said
Moonves replied, tell her to go for herself. Oh, and
I think it sort of needs to be said that
part of me wonders, you know, maybe this is just
(15:10):
the industry. This is just Hollywood. This is how it works.
It's all it's all games, and it's all mind games,
and it's all business and it's all weeling and dealing.
But this is not okay. The way that she is
a legend, that he treated her is not okay. And
I think that as long as we use platitudes like that, like, oh,
it's just business, it's just Hollywood, we're making it okay
(15:30):
to treat people, oftentimes women, and people love color, and
people who are marginalized in these fields. We're making it
okay to treat them like garbage. And we're saying it's
okay to have to cultivate an industry that, you know,
it doesn't matter how you treat people. It doesn't matter.
You know, if you were contractually obligated to pay X
and you're just not going to pay it because you're
a big deal and you can do that and you're
(15:51):
the head of this network and blah blah blah. We're
cultivating atmospheres where that's okay. And we should be better
than that. You know, I think that. I mean I
saw a lot people on Twitter saying like, oh, well,
that's just the hostess Hollywood, it's just business. I don't
think that's a good excuse for what's happening here. And
like we mentioned earlier, those those fines are not picking
up the pilots were hefty. Those are big a lot
(16:14):
of money there. And if you can only imagine if
Les bon Vez is one of the reasons that her
pilots didn't get picked up and then she's having to
pay the fine for it, that's ridiculous and a huge
that's a huge deal for your career. Absolutely, absolutely, and
(16:34):
again think about where she would be now if this
hadn't happened like she she flat out says that he
derailed her career and that people, you know, one of
the lines and her essay that we're gonna get to
is she says, people always ask what happened to you,
and she says, Les Moonvesz happened to me. Think about
where she would be right now. She could have a
room full of Emmy's if this one guy hadn't decided
(16:56):
to throw a wrench and her and the entire trajectory
of her career, which up until that point had been
very successful. And she says that she wasn't her asked
by Moonbez in a sexual way, but she did hear
word of his inappropriate behavior. Um quote. I began to
hear from female CBS employees about his mercurial, misogynist behavior
(17:18):
with actresses being ushered in and out of his office.
His mantra, I was told was why would I want
to cast him if I don't want to come? And
he was an angry bully who enjoyed telling people I
will tear off the top of your head and piss
on your brain. That's just disturbing. That is a boss
you do not want. Yeah. Can you imagine if your
(17:39):
boss said that to you or like that, you would
heard that that was something that he that he um
other people. Yeah, I would think that this is going
to turn into I've seen too many horror movies, but
I would think it was going to be a horror movie.
And I don't need this guy anywhere near me. Yeah.
It just sounds like he's someone who had a knack
(18:01):
for saying really gross things in he said quote when
I first got to CBS, the sexiest woman on the
network was Angela Landsberry. But fortunately we're doing a little
better than that now. Gross. What a jerk. And another
quote from Thomason's essay is also particularly horrible. She writes,
(18:23):
soon I would hear how he had invited a famous
actress to launch in the CBS dining room. Coming off
the cancelation of her iconic detective show, the star began
pitching a new one. He informed her that she was
too old to be on his network. She began to
cry and stood up to go. He stood up to
taking her by the shoulders and telling her, I can't
let you leave like this. She reacted suddenly touched. Then
(18:46):
he shoved his tongue down earth throat. I know this
happened because the stars of the person who told me,
oh that. Just when I read that, I was enraged,
and I did. I did have a moment where I
began trying to deduce who that might have been. But
ultimately it doesn't matter, because it doesn't. Like that is
(19:06):
such a just a terrible, terrible, terrible way to treat anyone,
but especially someone who is your employee like that, Like
that is just I mean, can you imagine if that
had been you. Can you imagine the rollercoaster ride that
your emotions would have been on. Yeah, that would have
(19:28):
been It would have been miserable. Um again, I have
a story that's kind of similar but not as bad,
where I like had a role and it was a
really good role. But then the producer he asked me
out and I said no, and he was like, well,
I guess you know. Now it's awkward and we can't
work together. And I was like okay, and he's and
(19:50):
then like where we were going to leave? And he said,
you know, I think you do great work and I
would love to work with you again, maybe just not now.
And I was like okay, and then he tried to
kiss me. No, okay, we're never working together. Good all
right now, I know. But that again, Why should you
(20:11):
lose an economic opportunity and a professional opportunity because of
his penis? Why why I don't think I should? I
don't think I should, but alas, I don't make the rules.
I'm trying to change the rules, but I don't make
the rules. Oh my god, this is yeah. I'm so angry.
(20:34):
Yeah we're not We're like not even to the first advict.
Thomason basically says that Les Moonves blackballed and derailed her
career and the careers of other women, all because he
didn't like those malodi feminists on TV. Quote. Over the years,
even when an actress managed to get one of my
scripts through an agent, the deal would immediately be killed.
(20:55):
It was like a personal vendetta. And I will never
know why. Was it because I was championing the New
South or an admittedly aggressive feminist agenda or both. When
the legendary Bette Midler informed Moonbez that she wanted to
do a series with me, I'm told he denied her request.
When the singer Huey Lewis, whom Les had become enamored with,
(21:15):
chose me to write a pilot for him, his contract
was canceled. It would have been so easy not to
mention honorable, to simply tell me he was never going
to put a show of mine on air. That was
certainly his right, But instead he kept me hopping and hoping.
When I finally realized he was never going to put
a show of mine on the air, I left. It
was never really about the money anyway. I just wanted
(21:37):
to work. People ask me for years? Where have you been?
What happened to you? Les? Moon Beez happened to me?
M And I guess that's what it all comes down
to for me, is that, you know, where would her
career be if he had just said, listen, you're not
my cup of tea. The shows that you put on
are not for me. It's not gonna be I don't
see it for with this network. I'm sorry, she said.
(21:59):
It sounds like she would have just packed up and left,
she would have found someplace else to work. But he
never did that. He just kept her hoping and calling
and working and probably internalizing, you know, was this me? Like?
What am I doing wrong? I thought I was good
at this. That probably went on for years and years
until she wise up and realized it's not me, it's him.
This is his thing. And yeah, it's just think of
(22:20):
all the time that she wasted. We didn't include it
in the episode today, but she describes this sort of
charm campaign that she waged. You know, she talks about
how she was voted most popular in high school and
that she figured, certainly she could figure out a way
to charm charm this guy, and so she would be
really nice and really she really tried to work with him,
(22:42):
and nothing that she did was going to convince him
to put a show of hers on the air. And
just keeping her hanging on for so long when she
could have been out flourishing on another network, out developing
new things, out working, I just think is so messed up,
and it really, it just it makes me sad. It
(23:02):
makes me sad that we as women, particularly women who
are creatives, have to put up with this, that this
is something that we have to put up with in
the industry. And I don't think it's fair. It's cruel,
and um, it's sadistic. It's it's it's almost it's almost
like a a sadistic head game. Like she says, why
(23:24):
didn't he just tell me it wasn't gonna work alculmate
this network? Because that's not a head game. That's not
that's not a power trip. A power trip is keeping
somebody trying to impress you, keeping someone hoping I'm calling
and working for a long time. That's a power trip.
Just honorably saying it's not going to work out, just
so you know, that's not a power trip. And it's
(23:44):
about power absolutely, and Thompson isn't alone. The reporting on
Les moon Vez's out stair at CBS also unveiled a
new wrinkle that he waged a campaign against Janet Jackson
following the infamous Super Bowl wardrobe malfunction, which we'll get
into after a quick break forward from our sponsor and
(24:15):
we're back. Thank you sponsor. So I should just say
right off the bat before we get into talking about
Shanna Jackson, I am a Jana Jackson super fan, So
full disclosure. You might be thinking, Wow, I just want
everyone to know that we're all on the same page.
I am a huge Shanna Jackson fan. That might color
(24:36):
how I feel about a little bit of what went
down on this situation. I just want folks to know,
just straight up, Yeah, my my color things a bit, uh,
But you're being an upfront and professional podcaster, Thank you. So.
According to a piece and the Huffington Post by yashar Alie,
Moonvez had a personal vendetta against Shanna Jackson and vowed
(24:58):
to destroy her career after her breast was exposed for
nine sixteenth of a second during the Super Bowl halftime
show The justin Timberlake in two thousand four. Do you
remember that um I do remember that. I didn't watch it,
but I remember people talking about it afterwards. Yeah, I
remember watching it live because I loved Janet Jackson and
(25:19):
always have and always will because she's a queen. So
of course I watched that performance. Um, and then afterward
we went we went on her. Um My whole family,
like went to her concert when she came to play
at Hampton Roads in Virginia when I was growing up.
But in case you've forgotten, people were outraged by this nipple.
America Online, who suponsored the halftime show, demanded a refund
(25:40):
of the nine point three million, and in a a pay
to do so. Several private citizens even fouled their own
lawsuits against the broadcaster. At the horror of seeing a
nipple for you know that amount of time, Heaven forbid
we see we be exposed to a nipple. I mean,
my god, can you imagine I'm scarred for life. I'll
never recover exactly exactly, might need therapy for that. One
(26:01):
Tennessee woman even filed a class action lawsuit on behalf
of quote, all American citizens who watched the outrageous conduct.
Oh whoa, I mean, there's outrageous conduct at the Super Bowl,
But I would say it's not that CBS and MTV,
a subsidiary of Viacom, the parent company of CBS at
the time, which produced the halftime show, based a torrent
(26:23):
of criticism in a five hundred and fifty thousand FCC fine. Now,
to be clear, both Jackson and Timberlake say that this
was a legit accident. You might remember the phrase wardrobe
malfunction being used to describe what happened during their routine.
Timberlake was meant to tear away the leather, exposing a
red lace brawl underneath a leather boostier, but instead he
(26:45):
accidentally ripped away everything, exposing her breast. But Moonvez didn't
buy this and thought it was an intentional ploy to
stir controversy. He banned both Timberlake and Jackson from the
two thousand four Grammys. Timber Lake issued a tearful apology
to Moonvez and was unbanned and invited to perform Alie
(27:08):
writes that the CBS chief executive was furious that Jackson
didn't make a similarly contrite apology to him. The fallout
from the incident inflicted significant damage on Jackson's career, which
until that point had produced ten number one hits and
still reverberates to this day. This really kills me because
I think that the popular narrative around this whole situation
(27:31):
is that after the Super Bowl Janet Jackson was so
ashamed and disgraced by what happened that she retreated from
the public limelight and that you know, that's you know,
she sort of went into hiding or something. That is
not true. She continued to make albums, She continued to
make music, She continued to be her super talented, amazing
(27:51):
self and put out hit after hit after hit or not.
Guess they weren't hits, but they were hits in my heart.
They were um. But her career was intentionally sidelined by
Les Moonvest. So people, I think that the popular narrative
is that she retreated from the limelight, and she didn't.
Her career was. She was just being blackballed by this
(28:13):
one asshole and one weird side note. Moonvez's wife Julie Chen,
who just stepped down from her role on the talk
following lesmon Vezza's alistair, said Janet never apologized for the incident.
She says that both parties would have been fine had
they both apologized, and that Justin apologized and that she didn't.
(28:34):
Here's what she had to say. Their camps were all told,
you have to just come out and apologize for what happened,
and you'll be on the Grammys the following week. One
person apologized, one person did, and that following week Justin
Timberlike who apologized, performed at the Grammys, and Janet Jackson
did not. But Jannet Jackson actually did apologize. She went
(28:55):
on TV and apologized. So here's a listen. And unfortunately
the whole thing went wrong in the end. I am
really sorry if I offended anyone. That was truly not
my intention. Yeah, it does sort of sound like that
Julie Chen was sticking up for her husband and CBS
(29:18):
and sort of rewriting history and saying that Jackson never
apologized when you know she absolutely, verifiably did. It does
sound that way, and Alice says that Moonvez ordered Viacom properties,
VH one and MTV and all Viacom owned radio stations
(29:39):
stopped playing Jackson songs and music videos, and the move
had a huge impact on sales of her album Demita Joe,
which was released in March two thousand four, just a
month after the Super Bowl, which, by the way, after
putting together the notes for this episode, I listened to
that album and it slaps a good album and it
tanked because of less one Vez, Bridget, You've got to
(30:04):
calm known. I know. I mean, I will, I will.
There are a few people that I will defend to
the death, and Janet Jackson is one of them. I
love it. Yeah. Side note, I used to always tell
my friends, if anything ever happens to me, like if
I get killed or something like that, in lieu of
a funeral, please pass a local organance that says that
(30:25):
all dance clubs in DC at midnight on my birthday
have to play Janet Jackson's Together Again and you can
dance as wild as you want and nobody can ever
get thrown. Now it will be like, um, Jackson, you
can just do whatever you want. There are no rules
dancing wise dancing. I mean, you can't kill a guy,
(30:45):
but you could, you know, stand at a table and
dance if that, If that's how you feel your body
needs to express itself. I love this, Bridget. I am
on board. Yeah, if anything ever happens to me, avenge
my death in that way please. I am on it.
I'm on it. A be Nation reports that Demita Joe's
low sales were in part because she was blacklisted by
clear Channel Communications, which at the time was owned by
(31:07):
Viacom MTB and CBS Radio, as well as subsequent radio
stations that made it virtually impossible for Jackson to promote
her album singles and music videos. And that is a
huge deal. She basically was not able to promote this
album at all. And I actually remember one of the
reasons why we were able to go, like the whole
my whole family went to her concert for this album,
(31:28):
And one of the reasons why we were able to
go because the tickets were really cheap. But I remember
it was a rare family thing where the entire family
and my cousins and stuff all went, and I think
we were only able to do that because the tickets
were kind of cheap. Um. Now, I have to say many,
myself very much included. I felt that Janet's career was
being installed because of the incident. While Justin was basically
(31:50):
allowed to flourish timber Lake, I think it seemed to
kind of throw her under the bus. In in subsequent
interviews after this happened, He said, I looked at her.
They brought a towel up on stage. They covered her up.
I was completely embarrassed and just walked off stage as
quickly as I could. He also said, I'm frustrated at
(32:12):
the whole situation. I'm frustrated that my character is being questioned.
And the fact of the matter is, you know, I've
had a good year, a really good year, especially with
my music. So I can't help but notice that his
talking about her. You know, they brought a towel on
stage to cover her up. That just seems so dripping
in shame that she should be a shame, you know,
(32:33):
cover her up. I was so embarrassed. It really sort
of distances his role in the whole thing and kind of,
at least in my book, seems to put the entire
thing on her in a way that I just found
find really you know, shaving. Yeah, there were two people
involved in that situation, Timberlake, Sir, you did say two
(32:57):
years later, in two thousand and six, and my honest opinion, now,
I could have handled it better. I'm part of a
community that consider themselves artists, and there was something I
could have done in her defense. That was more than
I realized, than I would have. But the other half
of me was like, wow, we still haven't found the
weapons of mass destruction and everybody cares about this. I
probably got ten percent of the blame, and that says
(33:19):
something about society. I think that America is harsher on women,
and I think that America is, you know, unfairly harsh
on ethnic people. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but it is
sort of like justin Timber late discovers racism. You know,
it's like it's it's it's I shouldn't laugh because you
know better late than ever, but it is sort of funny.
(33:42):
He also says that he has quote made peace with Janet,
which fine, but in my obviously very biased book, since
he didn't use his recent Super Bowl performance to like
bring Jannet Jackson out, give her a heartfelt and public
and meaningful apology, and then sit quietly while she performed
you know, five deep cut songs from her hat catalog.
(34:06):
I will always be sus of Timber like this, in
my personal opinion, I know people like him. People are
not gonna like that. I've said that, but I don't
know this happens up publicly, whether or not he's privately
made peace with her, whatever that means. Until he publicly
says I'm sorry for what happened to you, I will
always kind of be anti timber Lake a little bit
(34:30):
that what you just described as a super Bowl midtime
halftime show. I never watched the super Bowl that I
would tune in for, right same, We're just coming up
with all kinds of good content ideas in this episode
we are. Eli alleges now that Janet's career setbacks were
an intentional thing that Moonvez engineered. Ellie writes, seven years
(34:54):
after the two four incident, Moonvez told several sources he
was furious when he found out Jackson At signed a
book deal with Simon and Schuster for her book True You,
A Journey to Finding and Loving Yourself. Simon Schuster is
owned by the CBS Corporation. Quote how the did she
slip through? Moonvez asked, while recounting the story to a
source who spoke to me. He told another source that
(35:15):
heads were going to roll as a result of the deal. Yeah,
so you can kind of see how, you know, this
wasn't just something where she was so ashamed by her
boob being out for you know, a hot second, that
she retreated from public life, that this actually was an
intentional stalling of her career by Les Moonvest. According to reporting,
(35:38):
he bragged about it, and it was a thing that
he that people knew that that was his, that was
his vendetta, and that he held this vendetta for years.
I mean the book that you just mentioned that came
out in eleven, that's years later. Years later, he's still
talking about Shannon Jackson. I knows how to hold a grudge. Seriously. Yeah,
(36:00):
we have a little bit more for you, but first
we're gonna pause for one more quick break for a
word from our sponsor, m and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So,
in conclusion, this whole thing is a great case study
(36:23):
for the fact that gender based harassment is not always sexual.
Linda Bloodworth Thomas and alleges that Les Moonvez just didn't
like the quote loud mouth speeches women made on designing women.
He also tried to stomp out Janet Jackson's career because
she wasn't apologetic enough following her wardrobe malfunction. Yeah, exactly.
(36:47):
Gender based harassment can look like a lot of things.
Sometimes it is sexual, harassment, But sometimes it's a man
sort of trying to black ball your career because you're
the kind of woman he doesn't like. Sometimes it's being
mistreated systematically in a workplace. It doesn't always have to
be groping and kissing for it to be wrong and
for it to have a real negative impact on your career. Yeah,
(37:08):
and unfortunately, I think it's something that happens all too often.
So if this is something that's happened to you, listeners,
please right in let us know. And this brings us
to listener mail. Sarah wrote, I live in former Swaziland,
a small country in southern Africa. Here people are addressed
(37:31):
by familial relationships, whether you're related or not, rather than
marital status. I'll save you the trouble of pronouncing the
siswatty words, but it's a fairly simple formula. A man
your age or younger is brother. A man older than
you was father, A much older man is grandfather, and
the same applies for women. With sister and mother and grandmother,
you will typically be upgraded a problematic word choice, I know,
(37:54):
from sister or brother to mother or father upon getting
married and or having children, whichever comes first, but both
men and women switch over after marriage rather than only
the women. Also, you can still be mother or father
even if you've never been married or have no children.
It's just a culturally respectful title based on your relative
(38:14):
age to whomever is addressing you. Well, this is fascinating.
We this was in response to our recent classic episode
of MS mrs all of that confusion and how it's
different in other countries. So Sarah, thank you so much
for sending us this. This is it's really fascinating. Yeah.
(38:35):
I like that you could be mother or father even
if you don't have kids. That sort of reminds me
of how basically every adult that is close to my
parents as my aunt or uncle, even they are not
technically my heart. Yeah. I have so many relatives like that. Like,
I know that's not what you are, but that's what
I'm calling you exactly exactly. Victoria wrote, I am getting
(38:57):
married at the end of September and have really pondered
up at to take my future husband's name. We are
not traditional. My fiance did not ask my dad for
my hand, nor am I having my father walked me
down the aisle as I am deciding to marry. No
one is giving me away. My dad just gets to
sit back and relax in a big day. I decided
to take my husband's name one. I come from a
large family, and my name is at no risk of
(39:19):
dying out to My last name is very generic. You
could probably guess it in two or three tries, and
I don't feel a strong connection to it. My husband's
family is much smaller, and I absolutely love his family,
especially as paternal grandmother. She has such a strong connection
to our history and has passed down such a rich
oral history of their family to me. So the idea
of taking their name isn't something that threatens my feminist
(39:40):
nature at all. Secondly, on the travel alone episode, I
enjoy traveling alone and my fiance has encouraged this. He
thinks that demonstrates strength and it also gives us unshared
experiences that we can talk about even when we've been
together for a long time. Wow, that is an aspect
of traveling alone that I hadn't even considered that. If
you're inner romantic really lationship, having intentionally solo experiences can
(40:04):
sort of keep your relationship interesting and give you something
to talk about and give you something to bond with
your partner over even though you didn't share those experiences.
That's a really interesting kind of sweet thing. I hadn't
even thought of that. Yeah, that, Um, I love that
because it's true if you've been in a relationship for
a long time, and I mean I've only the longest
(40:25):
relationship I was in was for three years. But I
was glad that when we did things separately, it was
kind of a chance to recharge and then have things
to talk about because we've covered a lot of this
stuff already in those three years, and I can only
imagine that as a longer relationship would have compounded that.
And I also love a lot of you have written
in about this last name changing thing, um having a
(40:49):
generic last name and feeling like no connection to it really,
which I thought was an interesting aspect to this whole conversation.
Totally thank you for writing in, both of you, And
if folks want to write in themselves, where can they
do that? They can email us at mom Stuff at
(41:09):
how stuff works dot com, And as always, we're available
on social media on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told
You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And thank
you to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you
for listening,
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you so. In our
continued coverage of the Me Too movement and all of
the wrinkles therein, we wanted to tell you that the
(00:27):
head of CBS, Less Moonvez, recently stepped down from the CBS.
Moonvez is a huge media figure. He oversaw the CBS Network,
which included shows like The Big Bang, Theory Sixty Minutes
and n c I S, the premium cable channel Showtime.
In the publishing house Simon and Schuster, he was also
a pretty big male vocal proponent of Me Too, and
(00:49):
in December he helped found the Commission on Eliminating Sexual
Harassment and Advancing a Quality in the Workplace, which is
chaired by Anita Hill. But according to a new Pie
spy who Else Ronan Pharaoh, six women who had professional
dealings with Les Moonvest between the nineteen eighties and the
late adds that he sexually harassed them or described forcible
(01:11):
touching or kissing during business meetings, and what they said
appeared to be a practice routine. Who said that Moonvests
physically intimidated them or threatened to debrail their careers all
said that he became cold or hostile after they rejected
his advances, and that they believed their careers suffered as
a result. So add another name to that creep list.
It's getting quite long. We could turn this show into
(01:33):
just like creeps mom never told you about? Yes, creep
some mom never told like yeah, which would not be
very fun to listen to, but important on it would
be informative, you know, having a having a updating creep list,
an updating creep list. Just hours after Ronan Pharaoh's piece
(01:54):
was published, Moonves was ousted from his role at CBS.
He will stay on as an advisor and CBS will
pay him one million if it's ongoing investigation fails to
find any evidence of sexual misconduct, which just doesn't seem
quite right. Yeah, so he's sort of a creep in
residence right now, exactly. It's got to have an on
(02:17):
site creep available at all times. Yeah, just in case. Well, Annie.
The Daily Mail actually points out that, according to an
SEC filing, CBS might actually be the one putting the
bill quote. Within thirty days following the termination day, the
company will make contributions and the aggregate amount of twenty
million to one or more charitable organizations that support the
(02:37):
Me Too movement and equality for women in the workplace.
The filing knows, so it does actually seem like they're
suggesting it will be a joint donation from Moonvez and CBS,
but CBS might actually be the one that's picking up
the bill. According to this filing, it's really upsetting and
kind of a predatory, an interesting predatory, I don't know,
(03:00):
like a way to hide what you're doing. When if
Les moon Bez was supposedly this big advocate for me too,
it's almost a way of hiding behind that when you're
creep really, oh for sure. It does not surprised me
at all that he was, you know, this vocal proponent
(03:21):
of me too and was propping up commissions to investigate
sexual harassment in the workplace while actively sexually harassing women
in the workplace. That's not surprising to me at all.
Just look at the former Attorney General of New York
who was a very vocal me too proponent while also
being terrible to women. You know, it doesn't surprise me
(03:41):
at all that he would be someone who is very
vocally supportive of this movement while also being a creep himself.
That doesn't surprise me. And it is a tactic that
I think abusers would use to sort of throw folks
off the trail and a sort of make them seem
like they are one of the good guys when they're
not well on a lesser on a lesser scale. It
(04:02):
kind of reminds me of when say, you're at a
bar and a guy approaches you and somehow it comes
up and he says, oh, I'm very very feminist, but
it's almost more of a way to like, oh, she'll
like this, like you're not really feminist, you just want
a girl to come home with you. Yeah. I have
this theory that men that use feminism to hit on women,
(04:25):
what they actually mean is oh I like women with
short hair, or like oh I'm you know. It's like
I don't think they mean what they think it means. Sure,
that's a good theory. Um. There is one thing that
we wanted to talk about that is sort of different
about Les Moonvez's case and his behavior, and it's that
(04:45):
gender based harassment is not always sexual. That's exactly right.
So these women alleged sexual harassment, groping, kissing, and meetings
that sort of thing. But when this story came out,
another wrinkle of it is the fact that he had
been derailing the careers of women. That it sounds like
he just didn't like, you know, they were mouthy feminists,
(05:07):
they didn't kiss his ass, and that he was such
a powerful figure that he systematically derailed the careers of
these women that might have otherwise gone on to flourish,
and that this was a big part of how he
treated women during his tenure at CBS. And I feel
like this is something that can really get lost in
the me to mix that harassment doesn't have to be sexual,
(05:28):
it doesn't have to be groping or kissing and things
like that. Sometimes it's powerful gate keeping men sabotaging and
derailing careers based on gender. And that's exactly what happened
with two women, Janna Jackson and Linda Bloodworth Thomason. So,
first of all, if you haven't read Designing Women showrunner
(05:48):
Linda Bloodworth Thomason, her piece in the Hollywood Reporter called
not all harassment is sexual, you need to. It's it
should be like a requirement for this episode. Oh my god, yes,
Like pause the episode and go read it. It's one
of those pieces where my you know that that that
um that sound effect that's in reggaeton musicorns. Yeah, I
(06:12):
was my feminist air horns were blaring after every paragraph,
every paragraph I read, and in the back of my
mind I was hearing because it was so good. Yeah,
and it's it's so good that it was a struggle
not to include the entire essay in this podcast. Yeah,
the episode could it has been us dramatically reading this
podcast with air horns sound effects, and I would have
(06:34):
been happy with the podcast that we've Maybe that could
be a bonus episode because that sounds like at a
reggaeton beat. Yes, yes, it'll it'll be the it'll be
the hot it'll be the hottest song in the club.
For like eight people who go to the club to
hear feminist essays read over music. Two of us included,
(06:56):
well Beyonce did it kind of true? Oh my, have
a remix of of a Beyonce song instead of we
should all be feminists this essay, I am here for it.
Just listen to this opening line. This is not going
to be the article you might be expecting about Les
moonvest It's not going to be wise or inspiring it's
going to be petty and punishing. In spite of my
(07:19):
proper Southern mother's admonition to always be gracious, I am
all out of grace when it comes to Mr Moonvesz.
In fact, like a lot of women in Hollywood, I
am happy to dance on his professional grade. And not
just any dance. This will be the macarena, the rumbach,
the moonwalk. You get the idea. I do get the idea.
(07:39):
It's so good. Also, can I say, because she is
the former showrunner of Designing Women, I don't know if
you'll ever watch Designing Women. This reads like a Julius
sugar Baker monologue. So if you watch that show, you
know the women were prone to, you know, feisty feminist rants.
I in my mind, Julius sugar Baker is reading this
and and with and you will never alter drapes in
(08:02):
Atlanta Again. If you watch Deciding Women, you get that reference.
You don't, You're confused, but trust me, it's great. And
all the while, there's the there's the hip hop horn.
This is a whole thing. We're creative. We need to
find Dixie Carter, the woman who played Julia sugar Baker, Delta,
Burke Beyonce, get them together, get a producer on it,
(08:23):
and and make this track. I'm telling you it will
be a banger. I think they're going to be. We're
not gonna have any trouble getting them on board at all,
not at all. If you're wondering, if you're not sure, um,
what's going on here? What Linda Bloodworth Thomason is talking about.
She's writing about how Moonvest systematically boxed her and other
(08:44):
women lad shows out of CBS. She writes, I was
never sexually harassed, are attacked by lesmon Bez. My encounters
were much more subtle in gendering a different kind of destruction.
Was given the largest writing and producing contract in the
history of CBS. It was for fifty million, involving five
new series, with hefty penalties for each pilot not picked up.
(09:08):
So after Moonves became president of CBS Entertainment, the network
didn't pick up any of her pilots. She writes. Often,
if he would catch me in the parking lot, he
would make sure to tell me that my script was
one of the best he had ever read, but that
he decided in the end not to do it. It
always seemed like he enjoyed telling me this. That's such
(09:28):
a sleazy move to go up to her and say, oh,
you almost had it, honey, but I changed. I decided
to go in another direction. I can sort of see
how that was meant to keep her hanging on and
hoping and fighting and wondering is it I mean, that's
almost like a it's almost like gaslighting, Like that probably
made her wonder, you know, is it me? Like what
(09:48):
am I doing? But if that was his tactic, that's
like a way to keep her always always holding out
hope that you know this time is going to be it. Yeah,
something on a much smaller gale. But similar happened to
me once where I um, I had gotten a pretty
decent for me role in a pretty big movie, and
the night I got there to shoot it, they had
(10:10):
me like waiting and watching somebody rehearse it over and
over again, and it was really cold night, and it
was late an hour's past and I'm kind of wondering
what's happening, and um, Eventually the assistant director came up
to me and he said, you know, I've been thinking
about it, and I really think we should give this
to the male stunt guy, and then he said something like, um,
(10:34):
isn't it isn't it difficult to work in an industry
that's all about your looks? And then they made me
watch them film it. It was awful. What an ass?
I know, like, that's what I'm saying. I think that
even so, that's so that sounds like it was a
very clearly gender base said it was about making you
(10:54):
internalize that you were not good enough in some way.
And I guess that's my point is that you know
this is this is gender based harassment. It may not
be sexual, but it is so toxic and pervasive and
it can really get in your head. And this we
should be interested in fostering workplaces where employees and people
(11:15):
who are on projects feel safe and secure and that
they don't feel like at any minute there's going to
be you know, um mind for them to walk on that.
You know, we should be promoting workplaces that feel safe
and people feel supported. And when you when you're in
a workplace where it sounds like this this movie set was,
or you're constantly being reminded that there's someone else who
(11:37):
could do your job and making you watch this happen,
you know that's that does not set up a workplace
where you feel safe. And it's even harder when you're
a woman, because you're already marginalized, so you're already feel
like you have a target on your back, and then
having to endure this, you know, it's just it's just
not good. I mean, it's not sexual harassment, but it's
so so toxic and it can really just mess you up.
(12:00):
I mean that if I had gone through what you
just described, I would have been mortified. I would have
been that would have it would have knocked my confidence
for so long. And again, who knows what the impact
that has on your career long term, right, And I
I just remember being in such shock, and I was
(12:20):
so cold, and I had to like walk back to
the room with all the other actors and crew, and
they asked me what happened? Why aren't you doing it?
And I couldn't. I almost couldn't find the words. I
just went home and cried. And it was such a
miserable because that was a big deal for me, that
that role was a big deal. And then the night
(12:41):
of for them to say no, I'll just give it
to this guy who's never rehearsed. I had to go
to like all of these rehearsals and anyway, Um, and
it's I won't be late at the point, but it's
it's such a it's so disrespectful. It's disrespectful of you
as a professional. It's disrespectful of your time, time and
the value that you put into your craft. You would
(13:03):
have been rehearsing, you you were physically there when this
decision was made. I mean, it's it's just so disrespectful.
It's just and it just cultivates this climate of gender
based disrespect that I think is I think as women,
this that probably sounds familiar to a lot of women listening, right,
this idea that someone would make this seemingly flippant choice
(13:24):
and it would just be this upholding of gross, disrespectful,
toxic bolshon that we find in workplaces as women. And
I hate it. It It makes it makes my skin crawl.
It makes my skin crawl as well. And um, it
sounds like before Moonvez took over at CBS, the network
(13:46):
was a better place to work, or at least it
had launched a number of groundbreaking feminist TV shows, including
the Mary Tyler Moore Show, Maud and Murphy Brown. But
bloodworth Thomasin points out that Moonvez ushered in the c
s I era, which is basically shows about women being
victimized by men. Though I have to say I do
(14:08):
love me some Law and Order which is on NBC.
Uh so a little bit of a problematic faith there.
I agree, I agree with her assessment, but I have
to say, like, I don't want anyone calling me out
on Twitter when that when I'm tweeting about how much
I love Law and Order because it is my guilty pleasure.
She says that she doesn't know what happened to all
the women lad shows at CBS, but she writes, I
(14:29):
just know that the likes of them have rarely been
seen on that network. Again thanks to Les Moonvess, I
can only guess they all became vastional swabs in crime
labs on c s I Amarillo, which is again a
pretty good line. That's that's epic. Yeah, to make matters worse.
When she left CBS, blood Worth Thomason said Moonvez agreed
(14:49):
to pay only a fraction of the penalties due for
failing to pick up her pilots. When her agent asked
the executive what he should tell his client, she said
Moonves replied, tell her to go for herself. Oh, and
I think it sort of needs to be said that
part of me wonders, you know, maybe this is just
(15:10):
the industry. This is just Hollywood. This is how it works.
It's all it's all games, and it's all mind games,
and it's all business and it's all weeling and dealing.
But this is not okay. The way that she is
a legend, that he treated her is not okay. And
I think that as long as we use platitudes like that, like, oh,
it's just business, it's just Hollywood, we're making it okay
(15:30):
to treat people, oftentimes women, and people love color, and
people who are marginalized in these fields. We're making it
okay to treat them like garbage. And we're saying it's
okay to have to cultivate an industry that, you know,
it doesn't matter how you treat people. It doesn't matter.
You know, if you were contractually obligated to pay X
and you're just not going to pay it because you're
a big deal and you can do that and you're
(15:51):
the head of this network and blah blah blah. We're
cultivating atmospheres where that's okay. And we should be better
than that. You know, I think that. I mean I
saw a lot people on Twitter saying like, oh, well,
that's just the hostess Hollywood, it's just business. I don't
think that's a good excuse for what's happening here. And
like we mentioned earlier, those those fines are not picking
up the pilots were hefty. Those are big a lot
(16:14):
of money there. And if you can only imagine if
Les bon Vez is one of the reasons that her
pilots didn't get picked up and then she's having to
pay the fine for it, that's ridiculous and a huge
that's a huge deal for your career. Absolutely, absolutely, and
(16:34):
again think about where she would be now if this
hadn't happened like she she flat out says that he
derailed her career and that people, you know, one of
the lines and her essay that we're gonna get to
is she says, people always ask what happened to you,
and she says, Les Moonvesz happened to me. Think about
where she would be right now. She could have a
room full of Emmy's if this one guy hadn't decided
(16:56):
to throw a wrench and her and the entire trajectory
of her career, which up until that point had been
very successful. And she says that she wasn't her asked
by Moonbez in a sexual way, but she did hear
word of his inappropriate behavior. Um quote. I began to
hear from female CBS employees about his mercurial, misogynist behavior
(17:18):
with actresses being ushered in and out of his office.
His mantra, I was told was why would I want
to cast him if I don't want to come? And
he was an angry bully who enjoyed telling people I
will tear off the top of your head and piss
on your brain. That's just disturbing. That is a boss
you do not want. Yeah. Can you imagine if your
(17:39):
boss said that to you or like that, you would
heard that that was something that he that he um
other people. Yeah, I would think that this is going
to turn into I've seen too many horror movies, but
I would think it was going to be a horror movie.
And I don't need this guy anywhere near me. Yeah.
It just sounds like he's someone who had a knack
(18:01):
for saying really gross things in he said quote when
I first got to CBS, the sexiest woman on the
network was Angela Landsberry. But fortunately we're doing a little
better than that now. Gross. What a jerk. And another
quote from Thomason's essay is also particularly horrible. She writes,
(18:23):
soon I would hear how he had invited a famous
actress to launch in the CBS dining room. Coming off
the cancelation of her iconic detective show, the star began
pitching a new one. He informed her that she was
too old to be on his network. She began to
cry and stood up to go. He stood up to
taking her by the shoulders and telling her, I can't
let you leave like this. She reacted suddenly touched. Then
(18:46):
he shoved his tongue down earth throat. I know this
happened because the stars of the person who told me,
oh that. Just when I read that, I was enraged,
and I did. I did have a moment where I
began trying to deduce who that might have been. But
ultimately it doesn't matter, because it doesn't. Like that is
(19:06):
such a just a terrible, terrible, terrible way to treat anyone,
but especially someone who is your employee like that, Like
that is just I mean, can you imagine if that
had been you. Can you imagine the rollercoaster ride that
your emotions would have been on. Yeah, that would have
(19:28):
been It would have been miserable. Um again, I have
a story that's kind of similar but not as bad,
where I like had a role and it was a
really good role. But then the producer he asked me
out and I said no, and he was like, well,
I guess you know. Now it's awkward and we can't
work together. And I was like okay, and he's and
(19:50):
then like where we were going to leave? And he said,
you know, I think you do great work and I
would love to work with you again, maybe just not now.
And I was like okay, and then he tried to
kiss me. No, okay, we're never working together. Good all
right now, I know. But that again, Why should you
(20:11):
lose an economic opportunity and a professional opportunity because of
his penis? Why why I don't think I should? I
don't think I should, but alas, I don't make the rules.
I'm trying to change the rules, but I don't make
the rules. Oh my god, this is yeah. I'm so angry.
(20:34):
Yeah we're not We're like not even to the first advict.
Thomason basically says that Les Moonves blackballed and derailed her
career and the careers of other women, all because he
didn't like those malodi feminists on TV. Quote. Over the years,
even when an actress managed to get one of my
scripts through an agent, the deal would immediately be killed.
(20:55):
It was like a personal vendetta. And I will never
know why. Was it because I was championing the New
South or an admittedly aggressive feminist agenda or both. When
the legendary Bette Midler informed Moonbez that she wanted to
do a series with me, I'm told he denied her request.
When the singer Huey Lewis, whom Les had become enamored with,
(21:15):
chose me to write a pilot for him, his contract
was canceled. It would have been so easy not to
mention honorable, to simply tell me he was never going
to put a show of mine on air. That was
certainly his right, But instead he kept me hopping and hoping.
When I finally realized he was never going to put
a show of mine on the air, I left. It
was never really about the money anyway. I just wanted
(21:37):
to work. People ask me for years? Where have you been?
What happened to you? Les? Moon Beez happened to me?
M And I guess that's what it all comes down
to for me, is that, you know, where would her
career be if he had just said, listen, you're not
my cup of tea. The shows that you put on
are not for me. It's not gonna be I don't
see it for with this network. I'm sorry, she said.
(21:59):
It sounds like she would have just packed up and left,
she would have found someplace else to work. But he
never did that. He just kept her hoping and calling
and working and probably internalizing, you know, was this me? Like?
What am I doing wrong? I thought I was good
at this. That probably went on for years and years
until she wise up and realized it's not me, it's him.
This is his thing. And yeah, it's just think of
(22:20):
all the time that she wasted. We didn't include it
in the episode today, but she describes this sort of
charm campaign that she waged. You know, she talks about
how she was voted most popular in high school and
that she figured, certainly she could figure out a way
to charm charm this guy, and so she would be
really nice and really she really tried to work with him,
(22:42):
and nothing that she did was going to convince him
to put a show of hers on the air. And
just keeping her hanging on for so long when she
could have been out flourishing on another network, out developing
new things, out working, I just think is so messed up,
and it really, it just it makes me sad. It
(23:02):
makes me sad that we as women, particularly women who
are creatives, have to put up with this, that this
is something that we have to put up with in
the industry. And I don't think it's fair. It's cruel,
and um, it's sadistic. It's it's it's almost it's almost
like a a sadistic head game. Like she says, why
(23:24):
didn't he just tell me it wasn't gonna work alculmate
this network? Because that's not a head game. That's not
that's not a power trip. A power trip is keeping
somebody trying to impress you, keeping someone hoping I'm calling
and working for a long time. That's a power trip.
Just honorably saying it's not going to work out, just
so you know, that's not a power trip. And it's
(23:44):
about power absolutely, and Thompson isn't alone. The reporting on
Les moon Vez's out stair at CBS also unveiled a
new wrinkle that he waged a campaign against Janet Jackson
following the infamous Super Bowl wardrobe malfunction, which we'll get
into after a quick break forward from our sponsor and
(24:15):
we're back. Thank you sponsor. So I should just say
right off the bat before we get into talking about
Shanna Jackson, I am a Jana Jackson super fan, So
full disclosure. You might be thinking, Wow, I just want
everyone to know that we're all on the same page.
I am a huge Shanna Jackson fan. That might color
(24:36):
how I feel about a little bit of what went
down on this situation. I just want folks to know,
just straight up, Yeah, my my color things a bit, uh,
But you're being an upfront and professional podcaster, Thank you. So.
According to a piece and the Huffington Post by yashar Alie,
Moonvez had a personal vendetta against Shanna Jackson and vowed
(24:58):
to destroy her career after her breast was exposed for
nine sixteenth of a second during the Super Bowl halftime
show The justin Timberlake in two thousand four. Do you
remember that um I do remember that. I didn't watch it,
but I remember people talking about it afterwards. Yeah, I
remember watching it live because I loved Janet Jackson and
(25:19):
always have and always will because she's a queen. So
of course I watched that performance. Um, and then afterward
we went we went on her. Um My whole family,
like went to her concert when she came to play
at Hampton Roads in Virginia when I was growing up.
But in case you've forgotten, people were outraged by this nipple.
America Online, who suponsored the halftime show, demanded a refund
(25:40):
of the nine point three million, and in a a pay
to do so. Several private citizens even fouled their own
lawsuits against the broadcaster. At the horror of seeing a
nipple for you know that amount of time, Heaven forbid
we see we be exposed to a nipple. I mean,
my god, can you imagine I'm scarred for life. I'll
never recover exactly exactly, might need therapy for that. One
(26:01):
Tennessee woman even filed a class action lawsuit on behalf
of quote, all American citizens who watched the outrageous conduct.
Oh whoa, I mean, there's outrageous conduct at the Super Bowl,
But I would say it's not that CBS and MTV,
a subsidiary of Viacom, the parent company of CBS at
the time, which produced the halftime show, based a torrent
(26:23):
of criticism in a five hundred and fifty thousand FCC fine. Now,
to be clear, both Jackson and Timberlake say that this
was a legit accident. You might remember the phrase wardrobe
malfunction being used to describe what happened during their routine.
Timberlake was meant to tear away the leather, exposing a
red lace brawl underneath a leather boostier, but instead he
(26:45):
accidentally ripped away everything, exposing her breast. But Moonvez didn't
buy this and thought it was an intentional ploy to
stir controversy. He banned both Timberlake and Jackson from the
two thousand four Grammys. Timber Lake issued a tearful apology
to Moonvez and was unbanned and invited to perform Alie
(27:08):
writes that the CBS chief executive was furious that Jackson
didn't make a similarly contrite apology to him. The fallout
from the incident inflicted significant damage on Jackson's career, which
until that point had produced ten number one hits and
still reverberates to this day. This really kills me because
I think that the popular narrative around this whole situation
(27:31):
is that after the Super Bowl Janet Jackson was so
ashamed and disgraced by what happened that she retreated from
the public limelight and that you know, that's you know,
she sort of went into hiding or something. That is
not true. She continued to make albums, She continued to
make music, She continued to be her super talented, amazing
(27:51):
self and put out hit after hit after hit or not.
Guess they weren't hits, but they were hits in my heart.
They were um. But her career was intentionally sidelined by
Les Moonvest. So people, I think that the popular narrative
is that she retreated from the limelight, and she didn't.
Her career was. She was just being blackballed by this
(28:13):
one asshole and one weird side note. Moonvez's wife Julie Chen,
who just stepped down from her role on the talk
following lesmon Vezza's alistair, said Janet never apologized for the incident.
She says that both parties would have been fine had
they both apologized, and that Justin apologized and that she didn't.
(28:34):
Here's what she had to say. Their camps were all told,
you have to just come out and apologize for what happened,
and you'll be on the Grammys the following week. One
person apologized, one person did, and that following week Justin
Timberlike who apologized, performed at the Grammys, and Janet Jackson
did not. But Jannet Jackson actually did apologize. She went
(28:55):
on TV and apologized. So here's a listen. And unfortunately
the whole thing went wrong in the end. I am
really sorry if I offended anyone. That was truly not
my intention. Yeah, it does sort of sound like that
Julie Chen was sticking up for her husband and CBS
(29:18):
and sort of rewriting history and saying that Jackson never
apologized when you know she absolutely, verifiably did. It does
sound that way, and Alice says that Moonvez ordered Viacom properties,
VH one and MTV and all Viacom owned radio stations
(29:39):
stopped playing Jackson songs and music videos, and the move
had a huge impact on sales of her album Demita Joe,
which was released in March two thousand four, just a
month after the Super Bowl, which, by the way, after
putting together the notes for this episode, I listened to
that album and it slaps a good album and it
tanked because of less one Vez, Bridget, You've got to
(30:04):
calm known. I know. I mean, I will, I will.
There are a few people that I will defend to
the death, and Janet Jackson is one of them. I
love it. Yeah. Side note, I used to always tell
my friends, if anything ever happens to me, like if
I get killed or something like that, in lieu of
a funeral, please pass a local organance that says that
(30:25):
all dance clubs in DC at midnight on my birthday
have to play Janet Jackson's Together Again and you can
dance as wild as you want and nobody can ever
get thrown. Now it will be like, um, Jackson, you
can just do whatever you want. There are no rules
dancing wise dancing. I mean, you can't kill a guy,
(30:45):
but you could, you know, stand at a table and
dance if that, If that's how you feel your body
needs to express itself. I love this, Bridget. I am
on board. Yeah, if anything ever happens to me, avenge
my death in that way please. I am on it.
I'm on it. A be Nation reports that Demita Joe's
low sales were in part because she was blacklisted by
clear Channel Communications, which at the time was owned by
(31:07):
Viacom MTB and CBS Radio, as well as subsequent radio
stations that made it virtually impossible for Jackson to promote
her album singles and music videos. And that is a
huge deal. She basically was not able to promote this
album at all. And I actually remember one of the
reasons why we were able to go, like the whole
my whole family went to her concert for this album,
(31:28):
And one of the reasons why we were able to
go because the tickets were really cheap. But I remember
it was a rare family thing where the entire family
and my cousins and stuff all went, and I think
we were only able to do that because the tickets
were kind of cheap. Um. Now, I have to say many,
myself very much included. I felt that Janet's career was
being installed because of the incident. While Justin was basically
(31:50):
allowed to flourish timber Lake, I think it seemed to
kind of throw her under the bus. In in subsequent
interviews after this happened, He said, I looked at her.
They brought a towel up on stage. They covered her up.
I was completely embarrassed and just walked off stage as
quickly as I could. He also said, I'm frustrated at
(32:12):
the whole situation. I'm frustrated that my character is being questioned.
And the fact of the matter is, you know, I've
had a good year, a really good year, especially with
my music. So I can't help but notice that his
talking about her. You know, they brought a towel on
stage to cover her up. That just seems so dripping
in shame that she should be a shame, you know,
(32:33):
cover her up. I was so embarrassed. It really sort
of distances his role in the whole thing and kind of,
at least in my book, seems to put the entire
thing on her in a way that I just found
find really you know, shaving. Yeah, there were two people
involved in that situation, Timberlake, Sir, you did say two
(32:57):
years later, in two thousand and six, and my honest opinion, now,
I could have handled it better. I'm part of a
community that consider themselves artists, and there was something I
could have done in her defense. That was more than
I realized, than I would have. But the other half
of me was like, wow, we still haven't found the
weapons of mass destruction and everybody cares about this. I
probably got ten percent of the blame, and that says
(33:19):
something about society. I think that America is harsher on women,
and I think that America is, you know, unfairly harsh
on ethnic people. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but it is
sort of like justin Timber late discovers racism. You know,
it's like it's it's it's I shouldn't laugh because you
know better late than ever, but it is sort of funny.
(33:42):
He also says that he has quote made peace with Janet,
which fine, but in my obviously very biased book, since
he didn't use his recent Super Bowl performance to like
bring Jannet Jackson out, give her a heartfelt and public
and meaningful apology, and then sit quietly while she performed
you know, five deep cut songs from her hat catalog.
(34:06):
I will always be sus of Timber like this, in
my personal opinion, I know people like him. People are
not gonna like that. I've said that, but I don't
know this happens up publicly, whether or not he's privately
made peace with her, whatever that means. Until he publicly
says I'm sorry for what happened to you, I will
always kind of be anti timber Lake a little bit
(34:30):
that what you just described as a super Bowl midtime
halftime show. I never watched the super Bowl that I
would tune in for, right same, We're just coming up
with all kinds of good content ideas in this episode
we are. Eli alleges now that Janet's career setbacks were
an intentional thing that Moonvez engineered. Ellie writes, seven years
(34:54):
after the two four incident, Moonvez told several sources he
was furious when he found out Jackson At signed a
book deal with Simon and Schuster for her book True You,
A Journey to Finding and Loving Yourself. Simon Schuster is
owned by the CBS Corporation. Quote how the did she
slip through? Moonvez asked, while recounting the story to a
source who spoke to me. He told another source that
(35:15):
heads were going to roll as a result of the deal. Yeah,
so you can kind of see how, you know, this
wasn't just something where she was so ashamed by her
boob being out for you know, a hot second, that
she retreated from public life, that this actually was an
intentional stalling of her career by Les Moonvest. According to reporting,
(35:38):
he bragged about it, and it was a thing that
he that people knew that that was his, that was
his vendetta, and that he held this vendetta for years.
I mean the book that you just mentioned that came
out in eleven, that's years later. Years later, he's still
talking about Shannon Jackson. I knows how to hold a grudge. Seriously. Yeah,
(36:00):
we have a little bit more for you, but first
we're gonna pause for one more quick break for a
word from our sponsor, m and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So,
in conclusion, this whole thing is a great case study
(36:23):
for the fact that gender based harassment is not always sexual.
Linda Bloodworth Thomas and alleges that Les Moonvez just didn't
like the quote loud mouth speeches women made on designing women.
He also tried to stomp out Janet Jackson's career because
she wasn't apologetic enough following her wardrobe malfunction. Yeah, exactly.
(36:47):
Gender based harassment can look like a lot of things.
Sometimes it is sexual, harassment, But sometimes it's a man
sort of trying to black ball your career because you're
the kind of woman he doesn't like. Sometimes it's being
mistreated systematically in a workplace. It doesn't always have to
be groping and kissing for it to be wrong and
for it to have a real negative impact on your career. Yeah,
(37:08):
and unfortunately, I think it's something that happens all too often.
So if this is something that's happened to you, listeners,
please right in let us know. And this brings us
to listener mail. Sarah wrote, I live in former Swaziland,
a small country in southern Africa. Here people are addressed
(37:31):
by familial relationships, whether you're related or not, rather than
marital status. I'll save you the trouble of pronouncing the
siswatty words, but it's a fairly simple formula. A man
your age or younger is brother. A man older than
you was father, A much older man is grandfather, and
the same applies for women. With sister and mother and grandmother,
you will typically be upgraded a problematic word choice, I know,
(37:54):
from sister or brother to mother or father upon getting
married and or having children, whichever comes first, but both
men and women switch over after marriage rather than only
the women. Also, you can still be mother or father
even if you've never been married or have no children.
It's just a culturally respectful title based on your relative
(38:14):
age to whomever is addressing you. Well, this is fascinating.
We this was in response to our recent classic episode
of MS mrs all of that confusion and how it's
different in other countries. So Sarah, thank you so much
for sending us this. This is it's really fascinating. Yeah.
(38:35):
I like that you could be mother or father even
if you don't have kids. That sort of reminds me
of how basically every adult that is close to my
parents as my aunt or uncle, even they are not
technically my heart. Yeah. I have so many relatives like that. Like,
I know that's not what you are, but that's what
I'm calling you exactly exactly. Victoria wrote, I am getting
(38:57):
married at the end of September and have really pondered
up at to take my future husband's name. We are
not traditional. My fiance did not ask my dad for
my hand, nor am I having my father walked me
down the aisle as I am deciding to marry. No
one is giving me away. My dad just gets to
sit back and relax in a big day. I decided
to take my husband's name one. I come from a
large family, and my name is at no risk of
(39:19):
dying out to My last name is very generic. You
could probably guess it in two or three tries, and
I don't feel a strong connection to it. My husband's
family is much smaller, and I absolutely love his family,
especially as paternal grandmother. She has such a strong connection
to our history and has passed down such a rich
oral history of their family to me. So the idea
of taking their name isn't something that threatens my feminist
(39:40):
nature at all. Secondly, on the travel alone episode, I
enjoy traveling alone and my fiance has encouraged this. He
thinks that demonstrates strength and it also gives us unshared
experiences that we can talk about even when we've been
together for a long time. Wow, that is an aspect
of traveling alone that I hadn't even considered that. If
you're inner romantic really lationship, having intentionally solo experiences can
(40:04):
sort of keep your relationship interesting and give you something
to talk about and give you something to bond with
your partner over even though you didn't share those experiences.
That's a really interesting kind of sweet thing. I hadn't
even thought of that. Yeah, that, Um, I love that
because it's true if you've been in a relationship for
a long time, and I mean I've only the longest
(40:25):
relationship I was in was for three years. But I
was glad that when we did things separately, it was
kind of a chance to recharge and then have things
to talk about because we've covered a lot of this
stuff already in those three years, and I can only
imagine that as a longer relationship would have compounded that.
And I also love a lot of you have written
in about this last name changing thing, um having a
(40:49):
generic last name and feeling like no connection to it really,
which I thought was an interesting aspect to this whole conversation.
Totally thank you for writing in, both of you, And
if folks want to write in themselves, where can they
do that? They can email us at mom Stuff at
(41:09):
how stuff works dot com, And as always, we're available
on social media on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told
You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And thank
you to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you
for listening,
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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