How to be an Activist with AAFC

Two of the co-leaders of the Asian American Feminist Collective join us to discuss how to advocate and be an activist.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.
Never told your protection of I heart radio. All right,
y'all um, I am so excited today to be talking
with two of the founders of Asian American Feminist Collective.

(00:28):
And I stumbled onto their site and on Instagram and
if you are able to go see it, you should,
uh And it got really excited because the group in
the platform is an amazing platform that talks about what
it is to be Asian American feminists and also being
allies and pushing forward in a revolution in a time
that we really need to have the conversation of what

(00:49):
is racism and why is it so harmful and impactful
and how does it even affect communities of colors and
specifically the Asian American community, and why we need to
have a bigger conversation on being a good ally. And
I'm completely fan growing right now a little bit, so
I'm having more hard time using all my words because

(01:11):
they are powerhouses and every time I see or look
at what they're doing is intimidating. Y'all are intimidating. I
just want to put that out there, so excuse my mumbling,
but can you introduce yourself for our audience. Yeah, definitely. Well,
we're really excited to be here. Thank you so much
for having us. UM. My name is Santi Sojoball and

(01:31):
I'm a co founder and co leader of the Asian
American Feminist Collective. I am based in Brooklyn. I'm a
native New Yorker and I'm a first generation South Asian American. UM.
I'm Indian and I moved to the US when i
was four and so I'm really excited to be talking
to you about cross racial solidarity in this moment because

(01:54):
I think it's something our communities are really hungry for,
um and something we really need to be talking about. Yeah,
and I'm Saloni Baman. I'm also a co leader of
the Asian American Feminist Collective, though actually not a co
founder UM. I joined about a year ago. I am
also a first generation South Asian American. I'm Indian and
I moved to the US when I was about eight

(02:16):
years old. And I'm originally from Los Angeles or I
mean originally from India. I grew up in Los Angeles
and UM, this is my tent here in New York City,
which is where I'm based. But I'm so excited to
have this conversation. I think it's something that's been kind
of on all of our radars for a long time. Um,
not just being a good ally but how to really

(02:38):
be in solidarity with a movement for liberation and think
about kind of collective liberation. And I'm none of us
sur free until we all get free, you know. And again,
I I'm so excited to have you on because I've
chaired with our audience. We've been talking about issues of
ally ship and what it means to not only be

(02:58):
not racist, but in hi racist and why that's an
important conversation. And for me myself, I've had a huge
struggle in being an Asian woman raised by white people.
So I I was adopted and I came into the
U S when I was seven, and I love my
family dearly, but it absolutely is ingrained with the whole
modern racist idea and growing up in that environment, fighting

(03:22):
that growing up and knowing that I was somehow being
lessered because I was a brown person underneath a white
family who I was supposed to show how grateful I am,
and and being able to be in that environment but
never be equal to that has always been a struggle
for me because I'm also a social worker who decided
to leave that field to come into this conversation. And

(03:45):
being a social worker was partially due to the fact
that I feel like I owe people and there's this
ingrained thought process in me and I had to really
like pull it apart of what that meant, and that
meant being grateful to the white commune city. And I
feel like this is not just me my circumstances a
little different. But when I see a lot of immigration

(04:06):
and refugee situations and I've seen anti black and racist attitudes,
is because they also have that kind of attitude and
learning of I have to be grateful. I have to
prove myself into that world, and in order to do that,
that means I must before what they are fighting as well.
So if white community is fighting being the dominant community
and being the superior race, then obviously we have to

(04:29):
be allied to that or that's that ingrained mindset and
being grateful. So yeah, I just I think I wanted
to talk about a little bit. So what does that
look like to break that down? I mean, can you
maybe it's just me in breaking that thought process down
and understanding this is what oppression is. Yeah, I think, um,
you know a lot of people have had really similar

(04:51):
experiences to you. And I also think like thinking about
our responsibility and role in this moment as non black
people of color is really complicated and I think requires
quite a bit of real reflection. I think that where
the tension lies often is in the fact that, you know,

(05:12):
as immigrants and as people of color, our communities have
been through a lot. Our communities have struggled and been oppressed,
you know, politically, economically, have suffered racism. And so I
think that sometimes where the tension lies is that, you know,
we see Asian people really sort of resistant to aligning
themselves with black struggle because I think that the instinct

(05:36):
is to be like, well, you know, I really suffered too,
and I also have dealt with white supremacy and my
experience in my life. So why should I be expected
to show up for this community or this movement or
these people when I feel like my struggles are being ignored?
And sometimes I see that tension as sort of like

(05:58):
the gut reaction. And I think that gut reaction is
also part of white supremacy, and that's also something that
we have to dismantle absolutely. And I also think that
we have a tremendous amount of similarity in our experiences
as immigrants and as Asian Americans, but also a tremendous
amount of diversity were a heterogeneous community. And I think

(06:19):
that a f C has actually had a whole lot
of transnational adoptees actually come into our space in the
last few months and share their experiences with us. And
you know that's not my experience, for example, but I
still believe that we can have community and comradeship and
really learn from each other there. I think applying that
same logic to sort of examining our differences, acknowledging our

(06:41):
positionality in sort of a larger struggle and approaching black
liberation is something that we must be invested in is
really important. I'm rambling a little bit, but I had
a professor once who said her name is Crystal theme Star.
She's very brilliant, but she actually once phrased it as
white supremacy is incredibly flexible and incredibly adaptable, so it

(07:02):
has all sorts of new tools that it always applies,
and whether that's pitting different communities against each other or
kind of positioning Asian Americans as a model minority in
order to act as a wedge against a certain kind
of solidarity. UM, the logics of white supremacy are constantly
evolving to meet the conditions it's presented with, and I

(07:23):
think that an awareness of that is so important if
we UM really seek to dismantle it. Thank you, I
realized I just jumped into that. I'm very this has
been a thought process for me, and it's been something
that I've been working out for a while. So I'm like,
oh my god, let me ask you. But the backtrack
a little bit. Can you kind of tell us about

(07:44):
a f C and how it came about? Yeah, definitely.
So we really came together in the aftermath of the election,
seeing I think this huge sort of ground swell of
feminist activism that happened right after Trump was elected, but
then also really seeing our communities and our voices really

(08:05):
um not present in that movement. You know. I think
that many of us went to the Women's March, and
I think that there was like just so much action
happening right then. But again, as so many times as
we have seen in feminist activism, it really feels like
it's a movement, or I should say mainstream feminist activism
really feels like it's led for and by cis gender

(08:29):
white women who experience economic privilege and whose problems are
very different from the problems of many of us who
are feminists, and so I think, like really seeing a
lack of Asian American voices in that space, we sort
of came together pretty informally a group of us to
host like some workshops and sort of like open community

(08:51):
forums about Asian American feminism in the age of Trump.
You know, how can we also draw on our histories
and our communities in this moment to think about what
liberation and justice UM and gender justice looks like for
us in this moment. And so after sort of seeing
the popularity of that first event series really sort of

(09:11):
pop off, we realized, oh, we really need to formalize this,
and this is actually a space that there's so much
hunger for. But oftentimes, like so many people like us,
I think, like queer Asians, trans Asians, brown Asians, multi
racial Asians, really didn't see UM an Asian American movement

(09:34):
that was really focused on our progressive politics. And so yeah,
we launched formally later in ten and since that time,
we have hosted a lot of different kinds of like
community workshops and panels, collaborated with different institutions across New York.
And yeah, we're really just focused on growing our movement
and creating a space for our community to come together

(09:57):
and get engaged politically and all so like, really create
a space for that identity exploration and support that so
many of us fought like we never had. Saloni, how
did you get involved? I came on? So I was
actually up in New Haven. I was in graduate school.
UM when a f C had their first launch event.
It was very sad to miss it, but quickly came

(10:20):
to every single one After that, CENTI and I were
friends and the kind of met out in the real
world because we were the only two brown girls at
a party and UM found each other like two magnets.
So there was kind of an instant solidarity there, right,
And I was thrilled when the four co founders asked
me to kind of be part of the collective about
a year later, and yes, since I think our first

(10:43):
kind of four I all together was last fall we
had a second year of birthday party. UM. It was
a wonderful celebration. We're very sad that we probably won't
be having one in person in September this year. Um yeah, cool. Yeah.
I'm gonna say when I saw it really excited. I
was very excited, and I'm like, man, I wish it
was in New York right now. I will say a

(11:04):
lot of y'all are much younger than me, and I
love that. I love seeing uh this community grow and
how affirming you are not only to each other it sings,
but to other organizations outside of yourself and making sure
you're an ally and being a part of that. And
that was kind of one of the big things. I
think I caught onto you when I was looking at
another link and it was kind of an intersexual communication

(11:27):
between um, I think a black feminist movement with y'all
and you were doing a book club together, which I
was like, yes, I need all of these things, but
can you talk a little bit about why that's so
important that we are inclusive and we do try to
collaborate outside of just your own organization. Yeah, definitely. So

(11:50):
I think like maybe it would be helpful if we
started a little bit just sort of talking about this
political moment even before some of the like you know,
civil rights up risings for racial justice that we're seeing
right now. So when the COVID nineteen pandemic started, we
were really seeing a rise in anti Asian hate, crimes

(12:12):
and prejudice UM, which was really you know, supported by
our racist president saying things like Kung flu and Chinese
virus and so all of this anti Asian sentiment was
happening while we were also seeing that the community that
was most affected by COVID was the black community. UM.

(12:33):
Racial disparities in health and access to healthcare have always existed,
and we've really seen how this moment has exacerbated a
lot of those things. And so we released a ZNE.
Our co founder Rachel, who's a brilliant scholar, really sort
of helmed this project where we put together a ZNE
called Care in the Time of Coronavirus that really looked

(12:56):
towards Asian and Asian American like histories of air and
care work and examining what it means to come together
as a community. And we had a lot of really
amazing writers and activists, UM and artists come together to
help create that project that really looked at how Asian
Americans were experiencing this crisis, and then, you know, not
soon afterwards, we were really sort of seeing more of

(13:19):
like the racial impacts of how COVID nineteen was really
hitting the Black community much much harder than a lot
of other communities. And so it was really interesting to
begin kind of thinking about what's cross racial solidarity means
and looks like in this moment where our two communities
were being impacted by this virus, obviously in different ways,

(13:42):
but um, it was really top of mind for us
to begin thinking more strategically about what that solidarity looks
like and means. And so, yeah, we collaborate with our
friend Jamie who runs this organization, Black Woman Radicals, UM,
and we had an Instagram lab conversation about Black Asian solidarity,
and you know, since then, it's something, obviously, with everything

(14:03):
that's going on, that we have been thinking about really deeply.
And I think, to kind of get to your other point, Sam, too,
the way that collaboration has worked for us is kind
of where we put our time and energy and care also,
and I think there's really no shortcut to building relationships,
maintaining friendships, really enjoying the people that you're organizing with

(14:27):
and taking the time to listen to what they need,
what they're hoping to get out of a collaboration and partnership.
Things like that. And what I've really been struck by
as someone who's kind of new I feel often feel
new to like the New York City activism scene, UM,
is that there is so much wonderful work being done
and there's really, um no time or space for ego

(14:48):
right now, you know. I think amplifying the voices of
great work that's being done in collectives that are not
our collectives, in missions that align with ours but aren't
necessarily the entirety of our mission is important because um,
it's only through kind of that kind of coalition and
relationship building that we're ever going to come up with
a mass movement. And I think what was so great

(15:11):
about that conversation with Jamie, or those initial conversations with
Jamie's that we've kind of taken the time to have
space where we can really talk about the similarities and
differences in our experiences without kind of engaging in the
weird like oppression Olympics that sometimes comes out. And I
think when I say comparing similarities and differences and I

(15:31):
almost hear myself become cautious because I'm sure you've heard
the kind of conversation I'm talking about where someone says,
this has been my experience of racism or anti blackness
and how I've experienced it, and then you'll see someone
jump in and say, oh, that's just like this thing
that happened to me, and it's almost like talking over
someone it's something different and sort of being like, wow,

(15:52):
that reminds me of the way my community has been
used or the way that my community has experienced white supremacy,
and how can we build together rather than and so
your experience doesn't matter, Um, I think in kind of
making space for the fact that we all have different
things to bring to the table and understanding that is

(16:13):
very important. I'm kind of rambling, but yes, so that's
exactly I know. That's one of the big things that
we have talked about on our show is why does
there seem to be such a limited and I say
that in quotes space for these conversations, as if we
only have enough space to talk about this one thing
and we can't look at the whole big picture. Whether
it's to say again, yeah, this is the marginalization that

(16:34):
we want to talk about because there's not enough for
all of this, or if it's success, oh this one
woman did it, so we can't talk about this other woman.
You know, it's kind of like, why is this need
to have limited amount of space and why is it
specific to typically women and those of color? Why is
that limits so small? And I think that's a great

(16:54):
point that you talk about with even with the fact
of being through some type of harassment or through prejudice,
that's has to be limited to somehow that Yeah, it's bad,
it's all bad. That's not what we're focusing on. That's
another conversation, but it's not necessarily a limited place, which, yes,
thank you, and you were talking more about the whole

(17:16):
ally ship and such. I think we're talking and just
in general, what does that look like today? What does
that look like for myself? For you who are brown
but not black, what does ally ship look like? Yeah?
I think that you know, Sloni brings up a really
great point, which is that you know, solidarity at the
end of the day is really about relationships and who

(17:39):
you are in relationship with and how you practice community care.
Like I think that there are so many institutions and
groups and people that we see today, I think, who
know exactly what to say and can like package there
are statements in a way that is like pretty and

(18:00):
speaks to people. But at the end of the day,
like whose team are you on? Who are you fighting for?
And also like what are you willing to give up?
Like what space are you willing to relinquish to really
pursue collective liberation for all of us? And I think
through thinking through a lot of this, like we have
also really committed to the fact that solidarity is messy

(18:24):
and anti racism work actually doesn't always feel good, nor
should it, and it's not always going to be something
that you feel like you're great at, and that's actually
not the point. Um. The point is like to learn
and grow, and I think be willing to get messy.
And so I think for us, like solidarity means like

(18:46):
explicitly naming definitely that we're not all affected by racial
injustice in the same way, but asking like what can
we actually do together to create a world where all
of our communities and thrive and live with the opportunity
that we deserve. And so I think being in solidarity
means listening first and foremost. I also think it means

(19:10):
like examining the spaces in your life where you do
have privilege and looking at how you are going to
take up space in those places in order to further
and anti racist agenda. And you know that can look
all kinds of different ways, um and I think that
it's something that we are still very much figuring out.
And I think also for Asian Americans in particular, there

(19:33):
are certain aspects of this that are definitely very specific
to our communities. As wide and varied as our communities are,
I think that anti black racism is a common thread
in many many Asian and Asian American communities, and we
really need to own that and examine it absolutely. I mean,

(19:54):
I think that we have to kind of be really
candid with ourselves and vulner doable about where we need
to change. And I think that comes since he was
saying kind of acknowledging where you have privilege and where
you can kind of spend some of that privilege to
redistribute your power. That requires an analysis of power and
how things work, right, knowing which spaces that you're taken

(20:14):
seriously in and how you're going to bring people in
being really candid when perhaps you're covering an opportunity because
you're the only one in the running for it because
of something, you know, the way something has been structured.
I often think that some of our work right now
is to also think about UM and really examine if
we have any collective discomfort around taking the lead from

(20:36):
black leaders and kind of letting them define what this
moment needs, UM, what the work should be in this moment,
what's most helpful for us to do in this moment,
how to kind of show up, and what kinds of
showing up are most helpful Because I feel like, you know,
there's ebbs and flows of urgency in certain kinds of activism,
and right now we're in a really urgent moment, and

(20:56):
so I think being willing to say, like, I'll take
your lead and tell me what to do is kind
of critical at this moment. Yeah, I love that, And
you know, I also do want to name some like
very specific things that I think all of us should
be doing, but as Asian Americans like some very specific
things that we can commit to. UM. I think, like

(21:19):
you know, committing to never calling the cops no matter what,
like actually committing to re envisioning different ways that justice
and accountability and care can happen in our communities. Were
obviously in a moment I think where people are learning
a lot more about prison and police abolition than ever before,
but understanding that as fundamentally a racial justice issue that

(21:43):
we can also commit to through daily behavior like refusing
to call the cops and also educating our families about
why defunding and dismantling police systems is a movement that
we should be involved in. And you know, I think
in terms like listening like a social media is such
an amazing way to be able to learn from black leadership,

(22:06):
especially people like black trans women who we probably are
not going to see have a national stage and the
way that they deserve. But we can really take it
upon ourselves to do that work of self education so
that we're not asking black people to educate us. We've
seen so much support recently of bail funds and a
lot of really well known black lead organizations, but I

(22:30):
also think donate more than just two bail funds in
this moment, if you can. The money that we donate
to bail funds goes back into this horrible system of
oppression that we're actively working to create. So can you
actually donate some of your money to grassroots organizations led
by black, trans and queer people. Can you donate that

(22:51):
money to progressive black people who are running for office?
And so I think just being really intentional about where
the money is going that you're donating. And I also
think like educating our families. I would say that's one
of the biggest things that you know, Selonie and I
and our work with a FC get asked about, is
people saying, like, my family is anti black. How how

(23:14):
do I possibly begin this education work with them? Right,
we have a lot more of our conversation for you listeners,
but first we have a quick break for word from
our sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's get

(23:38):
back into it. How should people how do people need
to be talking to their families their communities about being
anti racist and what that looks like and why anti
blackness is such a big thing and how to break
that down. Maybe this is a little I don't know
if I'm going to put my foot in my mouth here,
but I actually think it's our role as like real

(24:01):
community members, people who are part of our families. Right,
we're not like emissaries. We are going back to a
backward land to like tell truths to our parents. I
think that we have to have real conversations that are empathetic,
that listen, that actually inquire about our parents experiences with
power and the police and racism, things that they've experienced.

(24:23):
Because while in the kind of social media arena, here's
the oppression I experienced, and I don't like That's why
I think it justifies my anti blackness. That's not a
helpful thing to have on Twitter. But if you're sitting
around your dining table and you can have a conversation
around why an experience of racism that your mom or
dad had actually could be interpreted as something caused by

(24:45):
white supremacy and why they should be kind of committed
to this struggle, that can be really productive. And I
think that we kind of can use some of the
tools we have as children or siblings to be gentle
but also firm with our parents that kind of this
is important and to us, and have the kind of
like messier conversations that are sometimes it's it's not anyone

(25:06):
else's work to do. I guess like we have to
get our own families and right often when I talk
to my students, sometimes I think there's a frustration that
you know, like you go to college, you feel like
your mind is blown or something, or you stumble upon
your first critical race theory manifesto and you're so ashamed
that you thought you maybe had anti black opinions or

(25:27):
you had thoughts that you were ashamed of, and then
your shame turns into like anger towards your community and
not a lot of understanding or empathy. And I think
that we all have to work on sort of bringing
people to where we are when we love them for
whatever reason, right or I'm talking about, of course, people
who are lucky enough to come from loving and supportive families,
who perhaps have opinions that we want to change. But

(25:51):
we can kind of do that work and be patient
and be thoughtful. I think. Yeah. I also think, you know,
slone brought up earlier the model minority myth, which is
I think also something that we do have to actively
do the work of dismantling within our own families and
our own communities because we know that that's a myth,

(26:12):
but we also buy into it. You know, It's like
believing that as Asian Americans, we are superior to black people,
which is what the model minority myth teaches us. Is
again something that is like propagated and used by our
communities to create divisions between all of us as much
as it's used by white people who make a lot

(26:33):
of our rules. Right. But I think that also it's
really important for us to level with our families to
where we can talk about the oppression, racialized depression that
also exists within different parts of Asia and obviously has forever.
You know, Saloni and I are both Indian and thinking

(26:57):
about like castis um in India and how like that
is part and parcel of the white supremacy that we
deal with in the United States. Like it's the same thing.
It's the belief that certain kinds of people deserve opportunity
to live with freedom and other people don't. And so
I also think that having to deal with that kind

(27:17):
of oppression at home as part of again why it
might be difficult for a lot of Asians who come
to the US to be able to think about how
we have a responsibility to stand with and for black
lives again, because there understanding is like you know, I've
dealt with so much oppression, and it's like, yeah, exactly,

(27:38):
we have all with with this oppression that obviously doesn't
affect all of our communities in the same ways. But
if you would fight against that at home, um, in
your country of origin, why wouldn't you fight against that
same kind of terror that exists here? H And that's

(27:59):
I think that's a huge statement in itself when you
start trying to talk to your family and trying to
kind of put it into their terms and making sure
they understand from a perspective that they can be empathetic
to instead of just seeing the other. Yeah, the perspectives
Often that's kind of rooted in their experiences. Like Santi's saying,

(28:19):
you know, my dad, someone from Equality Labs actually tweeted
about this, and I was thinking about it a lot.
But my dad grew up in northern India and my
mom grew up in southern India, and they have had
very different experiences of India as a place. And my
dad has a very different or a very kind of
progressive analysis of why Islamophobia is toxic, and has never

(28:41):
liked the police and has long you know, it was
not hard to convince my father that we should abolish
the police. That was sort of a perspective that he
was really eager to take on once we started talking
about his experiences as a young man. His experience is
seeing communal violence the ways that that affected his community. Um.
But I think there's something that happens in the process

(29:02):
of immigration where all of a sudden, you're crammed into
a box and you're trying to kind of make relationships
with the people you find in a new place, and
there are fights that you feel are not yours to have. UM.
I guess I'm speaking from my experience speaking with my
parents and almost for us in having conversations, having permission

(29:23):
that they're allowed to care and be invested in racial
justice here, that it's also their fight and that they
can kind of have a stake in it, have skin
in the game. It's totally transformative. Um. And I think
that they, you know, move much faster than I ever
thought they would and are now they are full Black
lives matter. And I think that when I say meet
people where they are, I don't mean coddle them, but

(29:44):
I mean really be curious about their experiences and how
their ideologies were built. Right, And of course, you know,
it's helpful that my parents and I all immigrated together,
So I think there's some kind of like deep trust.
I think that they're probably very different conversations you would
have as an adoptee, the very different frustrating conversations I
sometimes have with you know, white family members I have.

(30:06):
That feels very different to me. So we all have
to kind of figure out where we enter when and
where we enter. But yeah, I also really, you know,
I've just been thinking lately about how being Asian and
being a feminist and having radical politics none of those
things are antithetical to one another. And the fact of

(30:30):
the matter is, like our radical histories as Asian people
have really been whitewashed and largely forgotten to history. Which
is why like one of the workshops that we do
is like to examine radical Asian American feminist history, like
learning about people like Grace Lee Boggs and your Coachiyama

(30:51):
and like different Asian Americans throughout history that have actively
fought with and for black lives and how have really
created like living examples of cross racial solidarity and action.
Our people have been fighting for justice and liberation for
a very very long time, and it's really sad that,

(31:14):
you know, a lot of kids don't learn about that
and then have a whole process of you know, for us,
we really had to seek out this knowledge. And we're
obviously so lucky that we were able to go to
college and that we were able to devote so much
of our time and like our youth to just learning.
And so I think like that's part of the responsibility too.

(31:35):
And when we talk about cross racial solidarity amongst Asian
Americans and black people, to say, like, this is nothing new.
This has been happening for a long time. People have
been having these conversations, and we're not reinventing the wheel here.
We're building on a long history of activists and liberation
fighters who have been talking and strategizing about this movement

(31:58):
for decades. Yeah, it's kind of the point that these
different movements were not singular movements. These movements were built
on each other, and we're you know, one of the
things that I had sent you guys, I know, was
the Immigration and Nationality Act of nine five, which was
in part with the modern civil rights movement. Of why
everything came about now, of course as a simple statement

(32:20):
and just a one statement, but it is. It's like
it builds on each other, and it shows that this
cross racial alliance has been important and has been around, um,
but it's been ignored and or you know, talked less of,
I guess, or pushed aside. And that's an unfortunate thing
because I will say, until I became an adult, I

(32:41):
didn't know much about this. And I say adult meaning thirties,
So it's been a minute. But I wouldn't even say
for me it wasn't college. Yeah, I wouldn't even say ignored,
but like strategically written out of the history that we learned, right,
because I think it's pretty threatening to the way power
operates right now, and kind of whiteness is a rupture
to imagine a sort of real solidarity. And all of

(33:04):
those movements were not without friction, right. There was a
ton of fighting and there's a ton of disagreement. And
one of my favorite things whenever we whenever I teach
feminism to my students is the idea that feminist practice
is actually disagreeing and trying to figure out through your differences, um,
like what your values really are and who um your
marginalizing and kind of building from that margin. Right, So

(33:28):
I think in becoming more comfortable knowing that you don't
just you're not born with all the answers. You don't
have perfect politics. When you come out of the womb,
you have to sort of constantly be committed to learning
and growing and being told when you're wrong or causing
harm and trying to incorporate that into your life. Only then, yeah,
only then are you building the politicist who want to

(33:48):
see Also is so interesting because you know, it wasn't
until I went to graduate school that I even realized
that the history of Asian America and the United States
goes back to the eighteen hundreds. Seventeen hundreds. You know,
George Washington used to collect China from China, and the
Astor fortune is built on the Asia trade. That's what

(34:11):
New York, you know, made all its money on. And
so when we look at an institution like the met
it's built with you know, black slave labor and Asian extraction.
So there are all sorts of ways that white supremacy
has like extracted from both of our communities. And understanding
that that's a long legacy and a long lineage has
been really powerful for me. Yeah, yeah, that's a whole

(34:35):
other things. Yeah, I won't do a whole history. It's
so dangel of talking about me after four pm. I'm like,
I've been reading all day, so I'm like, let's do
a small lecture. This is gonna gonna be when I'm
just gonna be like, hey, so I'm just gonna skype
you in and let you just talk to me. I'm
just gonna take a lot of notes. Okay, those are
terrible people. You have to be very careful before you

(34:57):
let us sleep. No, I love it. This is why
you guys are intimidating. As I'm looking at your biographies,
I'm like, well, they're gonna school me in so many ways,
and it's gonna be a long, good day. We're just
here to hell and I love it. I love it
so much. Yeah, I think you're asking me a little
bit of my history. My history is very my own

(35:19):
personal stuff is a lot of unlearning. Um and not
necessarily because I love my parents and I love who
they are and I am grateful that word comes in
a lot in my life and where I am today.
But there's definitely a lot that I've I've missed and
a lot of missing pieces to my life that I
have had to undo in the last I'll be forty

(35:42):
this year, so in the last twenty years, and trying
to understand what justice means, what equality means, the harm
that it has happened, because you know, this is a
whole other conversation when we talk about in our racial adoption,
in a cultural adoption, and what can be harmful and
what could be helpful. And my parents did something out

(36:03):
of a religious belief and they're good, good intended people,
and we know what that can be and at this
point in time has brought a lot of division between
the two, between myself and my family, and and it's
very obvious, and honestly it's been a growing thing since
childhood because being raised and pretty much an all white

(36:26):
town too, and being very aware that I was the
minority and that's just as it was, and an understanding
that I had a huge difference. It's definitely a lot
of unlearning. So for me, like even in the past,
I say, the first ten years in college, like outside
of college or while starting at college, was unlearning that

(36:48):
my race was not a downfall and not something that
I should be shameful of, and then trying to build
up what that means as a woman, as a feminist,
what does that mean coming out of religion and into
my own I guess you can say so. It's been
a whole other process. But finding organizations like yours is
what kind of pushes me and makes me want to

(37:10):
be bigger and stronger and louder. But it's definitely kind
of one of those Okay, how do I do this? Yeah?
It's hard. Where's my manual? You're doing it, You're engaging it.
Have you read Nicole Chunk's book All you Can Ever Know? No,
but it's in my list. Oh definitely. I thought it
was so beautiful. I'm just curious what you thought, but
what you will think? So you have to email me

(37:32):
when you read it. I will. I think I'm gonna
I'm gonna join this moop. Now I'm gonna be difference.
This is just the whole plot. This is honestly my
podcasting life is my plot to just find new friends
and now we're in relationships. It's definitely working, and he knows,
and he knows the bigger plot, it's not actually to
be on the podcast, is to find new friends and

(37:54):
good friends and then just be like, can I be
your best friend, We have a little bit more for
you listeners, but first we have one wrekup break for
words from our sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor,

(38:21):
So thank you guys so much. I've loved this conversation.
Just awakened so many things, uh in me when we
have conversations like this and just opening up barriers and
just being very real and honest about not only our identity,
but what it is to be an advocate and to
fight and to push forward. What are you some advice

(38:42):
for people like myself and there's out there who are
unlearning things one and trying to build up and trying
to be an advocate and fighter. What would your advice
be for those ladies out there or those who identifies females. Yeah,
this is something that I have been giving a lot
of thought to um and I'm really brought back to

(39:02):
a few weeks ago. I was at a campaign event
for someone who was running for state Senate seat UM
here in Brooklyn, and you know, it was really at
the height of a lot of these uprisings for racial justice.
And there was this black organizer who came up to speak,
and you know, he was looking out at this crowd

(39:22):
of people that was multi racial and you know, had
a lot of white people and a lot of non
black people of color. And he said, you can't love
what you don't know. And so, you know, I think
that when we think about solidarity being about relationships, you know,
ask yourself, like, who are the black people in your

(39:43):
life that you love? Do you have Black people in
your life that you love, respect, admire, that you will
fight for beyond just words and donations, but that you
will actually be committed to creating a whole new framework
of what it means to be in relationship and build solidarity.
I think that even in a city like New York,

(40:05):
obviously we are so segregated, and I really don't think
that you can actively fight for black lives if you
don't actually have black people in your life that you love.
And so I think that when we think about solidarity
beginning with relationships, like build those relationships and do that

(40:26):
listening and make yourself useful. Yeah, definitely make yourself useful,
and I think overwhelmingly went so you know, reading, learning, thinking, sitting,
reflecting all very good, and when you're ready to take
some punches, I would just say, like punch up. That's
my number one piece of advice. I see a lot

(40:47):
of kind of baby activists sort of sniping at each
other sometimes, and I think in the Asian American community,
it's sometimes very easy to go after other Asian Americans
in who you're going to critique or who you're going
to be frustra it it with, because it's challenging work
that takes a lot of personal growth to kind of do.
So just think about, like, what are the structors you're attacking, um,

(41:08):
go after those, Like what are the harms you're trying
to correct, Go after those. But I definitely agree with Cinti.
I think that politics of love are kind of critical
to doing movement work that feels long term and feels
really hard and sometimes requires you to be like brave
and it's not glamorous and it doesn't feel good, and

(41:28):
it might feel like you're giving up something even but
you have to have a vision of like who you're
giving that up for and who you're building a better
world for. Yeah, I love that. I think that's so
true about many people. Unless they have an actual personal connection,
they don't understand the whole picture, the bigger depth of
the picture. So thank you so much. Any do you
have anything, because I've definitely been taking over ban girling

(41:51):
a little bit, a little bit nervous here. It's great,
it's great. Um well, I always like to close out
with if if there's anything that we haven't touched on
that you would like to touch on that he feels
really important to share. And then also, what do you
have if there's anything in the future for yourself, both
personally or for the Asian American feminist collective that you

(42:12):
would like to share. We would love to share that,
We would love to hear that. I just thought of
one other thing that I think that we can all
commit to doing in terms of kind of like using
our privilege for good, but it's kind of sharing the
institutional knowledge we have. I've been thinking a lot about
I don't know if I'm going to mispronounce her name,
but there's this woman on Twitter, Tammy Techlo Marian. She's

(42:32):
a journalist, she's a wine professional who's been sort of
exposing these like horrible white male editors um at One
Appetite and uh Peter Mihan at the Only Time's Food section.
And I've been thinking about how like people get media
jobs and how people build careers and why we see
certain places like academia or um entertainment or media are

(42:54):
like so overwhelmingly white, and I think it's because of
the lack of like institutional knowledge orring. So something that
I think that we can do in addition to donating
and you know, being out on the streets, is sort
of being really transparent about what goes into things, how
people should either be negotiating, or how structures work, how
you got where you are. It was wonderful when you

(43:15):
sent us that email being sort of like, we'll be
paying you for this. That was kind of a you know,
I think it's that kind of work that's also important,
about sharing the things that you've learned and the things
that people may be shared with you because of your position,
um that now you have the opportunity to share more
widely and stop guarding as like carefully one institutional knowledge
sort of a strange thing to end on, but I

(43:38):
was thinking about it. I think that's very relevant. SENTI.
I don't know if you have our upcoming greatest hits
to think about. I don't think so. But I'm happy
to share a little bit about how people can stay
in touch with a f C and our work and stuff. UM.
So people can learn more about the Asian American Feminist

(43:59):
collect div at Asian and Feminism dot org um or
on our Instagram page at a f C dot NYC.
We have a tiny letter that goes out periodically, and
we also are doing a lot of different kinds of
virtual events and engagements until our lives go back to
some kind of normal UM and so we'll be pushing

(44:21):
out a lot of information on our channels about different
events and collaborations that we're doing, and we're always looking
to grow our community. We believe that everybody has a
place and a voice with us, and if you'd like
to learn more about us, please get in touch. People
can find me on Instagram at Senti Underscore Narrow and
at Senti Narwhal on Twitter. Yeah, and people can find

(44:46):
me at Saloni s A Hello and E on Instagram,
I'm just my own name and um on Seloni with
three est on Twitter. And that brings us to the
end of the this delightful interview. I'm so glad that
you found them and brought them on the show, Samantha.

(45:07):
I've already told them and I keep telling people my scheme,
but yeah, I'm just trying to find new friends and
I'm so excited to add them to my friend list.
I think you're doing an excellent job. Thank you. This
is my whole mission, you know, this just to get
more friends. I think I said that from the very beginning.
I never lied you, you know what. I appreciate that
about you. You were very upfront about your goals. You said,

(45:30):
I'm never gonna leave and I just want friends, and
look at this, it happened. It's like might wishless and
so Cynthia and Salani, thank you so much for coming
on um and talking with us and sharing with us
your massive amount of resources and knowledge. It's so fantastic
to be able to bring people on who can share
so much. Yes, and go check out the work that

(45:54):
they're doing. And if you have someone that you think
we should check out, or if you are someone doing
something that you think we should check out, please please
let us know. You can email us at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at i heeart media dot com. You can
find us on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You
or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks to our guest,

(46:16):
Thanks to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks Burger Face.
And thanks to you for listening. Stuff I've Never Told
You's a production of I heart Radio. For more podcast
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