SMNTY Classics: Where the f*** are the pockets on women's clothing?

After a disatrous search for a dress with pockets, Anney wanted to revisit this classic. E&B break down the quest for pocket equality.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're
listening to stuff I've never told you. Today, we have
an update to one of the episodes that you and
Emily did brigid um about where are the pockets? Um,

(00:30):
ladies clothes? And this is a question that is near
and dear to my heart. And um, I have a recent,
a recent encounter with this very question. Yeah, because a
couple of weeks ago, I was invited to one of
my best friends graduations and it was a bag free event.
You could not have a bag, and um, it was
outdoors in Atlanta, hot, muggy Atlanta heat for about three hours. Um,

(00:55):
no shade. So I needed something lightweight to wear, uh,
and something with pockets because I couldn't have a bag. Um.
I demolished my closet looking for something that fits this
bill anything. I was trying to get really creative with it.
I mean, maybe I can roll up these pants all

(01:16):
the way like anything, anything with functional pockets, because of
course I have a ton of clothes that have non
working pockets, but I had I didn't have any I
didn't have any options, so I went on Amazon typed
in dress with pockets and had to expedite it, get
get like delivery the next day, because I had no options.

(01:39):
That is a real pocket dilemma, the pocket emergency. It was.
I was furious. I was like doing the over the
top thing you see in movies. Yeah, closed, plinging clothes
over my shoulder, yes, like cursing loudly. Um. Yeah, it's
just I want pockets. We deserve pockets. We don't just

(02:01):
want that, we deserve that. We do. And one of
our listeners, Jennifer, sent us an article called what do
women want Pockets? From the week earlier in June, looking
into a study researchers published attempting to answer the question
that is related, why do people carry their phones in
their hands while walking? M Well, the author of that article,

(02:23):
jenn Dall, was like, the because middle pockets, right? Um?
She yeah, she thought to herself. Obviously I'm gonna hold
my phone because I don't have pockets, and the purse
is an untamed jungle. Who knows how deep the phone
will go if you need it? Who knows if you'll
be able to find it again in a timely manner,
if at all? Um? But eventually, Jendall, she gave in

(02:44):
and read the study wanting to know what in the
world they could have found, and the researchers called this
quote previously unobserved phenomenon phone walking, which they loosely defined
is holding a phone for significant amounts of time without
using it. One of the things they found, no surprise
of Doll, was that men and women engage in this
behavior at different rights. That's right. Of the over three

(03:07):
thousand adults researchers observed, about two of them were phone walkers.
But if you delve into the differences between the sexes,
twenty percent of men were phone walkers compared to thirty
percent of women, And the researchers had a lot of
theories for why this could be. Women might be more
dependent on their phones. Are they've got boyfriends who expect
a speedy text response. Um, this was seriously a reason.

(03:29):
These were all real reasons, um, or to lower the
risk of their phone being stolen, or even that it
is an indicator of relationship status. The phone walker may
as well be wearing a wedding ring. Yeah, this was
the reason they gave um. And this is why, in
their opinion, couples aren't as often phone walkers. They don't
have to display their relationship status by being on the

(03:49):
phone because they're with the person. It couldn't be that
it's rude to be on the phone when you're with someone.
That's ridiculing any don't be ridiculous. That's yeah, that's I
don't know what I'm even thinking. But they missed the
obvious answer. In Doll's opinion and our opinion, I would say, Um,
here's what she posted on Twitter and response quote researchers
missed the point that women's clothing often doesn't have pockets

(04:11):
and it's hard to find a phone in a bag.
This is an all caps Yeah, of course it is
because it's infuriating, right, um, and Twitter in response was like, yes,
women's clothes kneed pockets. Give us pockets, actual functioning man
sized pockets. We deserve, we do. I need to be
able to go to a graduation without aving to special

(04:34):
order address with pockets. That was like, my only just pockets,
just pockets. But you found the dress I did. I'm
glad it's got pineapples on it. But you shouldn't have
to have that big of a dilemma justified address with
frequent pockets. Nope. Uh. Doll in the article with this

(04:56):
observation quote. Our phones have become a metaphor for the
weight we carry as women in the society, a society
in which we're saddled with a range of expectations, for example, motherhood,
and yet not given the proper facilities or support in
which to carry them out, for example, proper affordable health care.
Isn't it about time we were given some bigger pockets?
Hell yeah, hell yeah. So um. We hope that you

(05:21):
enjoy this revisit of a past, a past favorite of ours.
Where are women's pockets now? Today? I have a little
bit of a personal gripe that this episode is based on,
which is that I bought what I thought was a beautiful,
beautiful skirt. I couldn't wait to try it on. It

(05:43):
was pretty expensive, more money than I usually drop on
an outfit I get at home. And it has those
damn decorative pockets that aren't even really real pockets. Were
they like the ones that are so shut they were
just like not even give you a little dip and
it's not you can't put anything in there. So they're
just for fashion. They're just decorative decorative pockets. Decorative pockets,
because God forbid, I have anything to carry a phone

(06:05):
on a pencil or whatever, and I got me thinking,
where the are the pockets on women's clothing? What is
going on? Where did they go? Where did they go?
And on the other side, I'm the kind of person
who if I'm in the fitting room trying on a dress,
especially formal dresses. I found this in more formal gowns especially,

(06:26):
and I'm on the fence about it looks good fit's,
good fabrics. Cool, Okay, I kind of like it, and
then I realized as my hands go down the sort
of waste of the gown itself, Oh my god, there
are pockets in this dress. Instantly sold. Pockets are such
a game changer. It's a total apparel game changer decision making,

(06:49):
like absolutely going from the maybe category to the hell yeah,
I'm bringing that home category. I don't feel like we're
exaggerating the extreme pleasure that pockets on guard. It's real pockets,
functional pockets give us. We're backpack love and women. Yeah,
I mean, it's not like we're without a good satchel
on occasion. I'm not really a purse totor as much anymore.

(07:12):
Since I discovered the love of a good formal backpack
which you as a little plug for if you are
a sporty gal, get yourself a polished backpack, a work backpack,
and love. So, first of all, I get it. Yes,
this is totally totally a first world problem. You might
be thinking, you know, bridget of all the things going

(07:34):
on in the world right now, pockets really, but listen
to this. Fashion is actually political, right, like most things
in this day and age. It's not just fashion. It's
not just a skirt, it's not just a pocket. It's
actually political and like many things, it does raise I
think some interesting points about gender. Absolutely, and if you
look at the consumer data, if you really think about

(07:54):
the economics of fashion and apparel, women are the ones
making those decisions in the fitting rooms more than men.
Quite frankly, women are the biggest spenders when it comes
to fashion. Women of every age group consistently outspend their
male counterparts on apparel. According to the Sage Business Researcher.
Back in two, the average annual expenditures when it comes

(08:17):
to how much you're spending money on clothing peaked for
both groups in the thirty five to forty four age range.
Oh so I have more spending ahead, don't you women
have a VEG shop any more, be shopping with the
women spending fifte so one thousand, five hundred eighty one
dollars a year and men spending nine d sixty one.

(08:38):
Those are kind of big numbers. Are kind of big numbers.
So women, women be shopping. We were the biggest consumers
when it comes to fashion. We spend the most money.
And that's why I think it's so frustrating that these
retailers are still not giving us products that fit for
our lives and are functional for our bodies. I think
you see that in a whole different way when it
comes to plus size women in the clothing options that
are available to them. But even something as small as pockets,

(09:01):
I think really demonstrates how this industry that is dominated
by women consumers and should be giving us things that
fit our lives and our needs, it's just really failing. Well,
it's it's that fashion over function form, right, It's this
decision someone is making that I think it's important for
us that our clothes are fashionable. I think consumers care

(09:23):
about fashion, but somebody is saying fashion is more important
than function. Well, actually, Emily, a lot of experts out
there would agree with you. One reason why people say
that there are so few pockets of women's clothing is
because mid range fashion that stuff like you and I
are probably wearing a lot of you know, your gaps
and your j cruse, those are actually dominated by male designers,
and male designers are much more concerned with things like

(09:45):
fit and drape than functionality. Over at the Atlantic, they
interviewed Camilla Olsen, who is a creative director of a
high tech fashion firm, and she says that there's inherent
sexism within the industry that keeps things like pockets and
other functional garments being standard in women's clothes. She goes
on to say, Honestly, I believe the fashion industry is
not helping women advance, and the lack of functional design

(10:05):
for women is one example. We women know that clearly
we need pockets to carry technology, and I think it's
expected that we were going to carry a purse when
we're working. We don't carry persons around a pocket. It's
a reasonable thing, and so I think it's interesting how
she makes this point that because of the heavy male
dominated fashion industry, women aren't getting clothing that it's actually
functional for us to live our lives. That's so sad.

(10:27):
It seems like such a missed opportunity. And yet again,
if you look at every industry, once you get to
the top ranks, like the director ranks of pretty much
every industry, you start to see women become fewer and
farther between. And even though there are some notable exceptions,
I think Jenna Lyons was a really noteworthy creative director
who put Jaku on the map quite frankly in the odds, right, Um,

(10:51):
it's so true that even in the female dominated spaces
like retail, when you look at the creative directors who
are wielding the most power, making the biggest decisions that
influence the direction of design, they're still predominantly male. Yeah.
What a mismatch between the audience that you're trying to
serve and the decision makers. Because how can an industry

(11:12):
that purports to serve women have so few women at
the at the highest highest levels and get it so
wrong when it comes to giving us things that we
actually can use. I don't know, but it's I think
it's yet another case for wide diversity and leadership is
actually good for business. Definitely, do you wear a lot
of J crew I don't own a single piece of Jakes.
Here's my beef with J Crew. I used to love
J Crew when it was cool, functional things that fit.

(11:36):
Now I feel like I go in there and everything
is like embellished. I'm like, how do I wash this?
It will be like a shirt that has bedazzled stuff
on it, and I'm like, how do I watch this?
If my first thought whenever I pick up something from
Anthropology or Jay Crew these days. Yeah, and you were
not missing anything other than having clothes that are dirty
forever in your closet because you can't wash them. I
seem to recall a Fabrieze conversation we've out on there.

(12:00):
There was a conversation and I'm sure that was a
J Crew garment. So let's get this straight. Bridget doesn't
wash her hoodies. She for breezes her hoodies, and Ergenes
doesn't wash her jeans, and now all of your other
garments from an Anthropology and banker, I'm not doing any laundry.
But you're like, I'm piecing together, You're just not watching anything.
I approved that message, girl. I know you know what

(12:23):
I think I just thought of as we were planning
for this episode. It didn't come up. But I'm going
to sound like a walking talking ad for one of
our sponsores right now. But how is the rental clothing
industry changing this? Because I mean I looked at that number,
fift dollars expenditure a year, and I'm like, get on
that Littote bandwagon, right like clear the Litote sponsors our podcast,

(12:49):
and I'm also where she gets that jacket. I've always
tend to toe and Littote right now, But between rent
the Runway and Litote and subscription rental services like that,
do you never have to do launch you again? Well
not even that I don't, Yes, because you can send
your clothes back dirty, which is part of the perk.
And furthermore, I don't spend. I don't buy clothes anymore.
I just rent. I love it. Yeah, it's like Netflix

(13:09):
for clothes. Yes, I like it anyway. So that's why
I haven't stepped foot in an anthropology in a decade.
At a certain point, I wonder if it's sort of
we're going culturally, we're going less towards owning and more
toward renting things like you know, why have a car
where you can use lift? Why? You know it's it
seems like that like we're heading towards that as a
culture in some weird ways. Sharing economy for sure, and

(13:29):
I wonder if that's a net positive for the environmental
impact of clothing. Do you think people throw out tons
of clothes all the time because this is like up cycling.
Oh yeah, well, actually, Emily, the average American tosses out
eighty two pounds of textile waste each year, which adds
up to eleven million tons from just our country, just
from America. That's a lot of clothing being thrown out. Wow.
So I just I think the sharing economy can sort

(13:52):
of be part and farcel with this minimalist movement, and
I wonder how that will impact the way that designers
are making clothing design decisions. I hope we'll see more pockets.
Maybe I can have a small influence by just renting
things with pockets, Like, it's very cool. You're doing your part.
You're doing your part for pocket equality. I know. I
wish I could show you all the jacket I'm wearing
right now, got some deep pockets. It's got deep pockets,

(14:12):
and it's super chic and functional and by the way,
it's reversible. Yeah, Okay. If I'm a walking ad, I'm like,
come on, sponsors, give us more. Oh my god. You
know what look like right now that you ever watched
The Fresh Prince how he turns his jacket inside out,
his uniform jacket, That's exactly what's happening right now. It's
got like a leather shoulder decals and now on the

(14:34):
inside feels like this nice little like pad, like shoulder pad.
It's cute. Right, this is now a jacket centric podcast. Sorry,
they're like, what are you talking about? We can't see.
We'll post. Okay, good, I'm ready. So it's interesting that
you say that this minimalist sort of sharing economy cultural
thing might be influencing our fashion. Another thing that has

(14:54):
really been influential on whether or not garments of pockets
is technology. So back when the ipe when six came out,
you might remember, it's pretty pretty large, and most men's
garments actually had pockets where you could put your iPhone in,
but women's garments really didn't. And so when the iPhone
came out, the new big one, a lot of people
were like, yeah, like, I can't put this in my pocket.
What am I gonna do? I'm gonna have to carry

(15:16):
it in my hand or put it in my bag
or whatever. And actually Mashable talked to five different fashion
brands Levi's, l L, Bean, J Crew, American Eagle, and
Lee to ask them if this new iPhone was going
to have them adding bigger pockets to their women's garments.
Most of them gave some kind of variation of maybe,
we'll see, but for the most part the answer was

(15:36):
a no. I wonder if they did, though, because I
am a Gap Gene loyalist, because once I found a
pair of jeans that actually fit my body, I was like, Okay,
I'm done shopping around because this is hard. But I've
split a few pairs of pockets like jeans in my
time because I do have the Giant, Yeah, I have
the Giant plus the six plus and the back. The

(15:58):
front pocket is a non starter, right, it's not going
in there. Not going in there. But I had a
whole appear because I was shoving my Giant phone in
my butt pocket and it definitely was not fitting. But
I like forced it. Oh, don't force it, touche. I
have since found that the Genes as of late, the
ones I've bought in the last maybe three or four

(16:19):
years have worked fine. I really do feel like putting
an iPhone in your back pocket as a recipe for
it falling into the toilet in a public race. So
I'm I'm very skeptical about putting anything back there. Your
case is gigantic. Yeah, I actually have the smaller version
of the iPhone, but my huge, ostentatious phone case makes
it impossible to put in any kind of pocket whatsoever. Now,
it's not happening, not happening, But what would you say

(16:42):
is in your pockets on average, like the functional garments
with pockets, Like what might you find in a bridget
Todd pocket. Well, I've actually kind of trained myself to
not carry a lot of stuff if I don't have
my backpack on me, so usually like I'll do debit card,
I D chapstick keys, Like I'm a headphone so I'm
down to the five staples I've travel like and headphones
like the the earbuds can fit into the front pocket. Yeah,

(17:04):
that's good. I'm a chapstick person too. One of the
things I think is kind of interesting is how the
ability of men to be able to carry things like
cell phones and women not really having that option for
their pockets might play out in the workplace. The article
that it's referenced from the Atlantic makes this point pretty sustinctly.
They say a man can simply swipe up his keys
and an iPhone on the way to a rendezvous with
his coworkers and slip them back into his pocket. A

(17:26):
woman on the way to that same meeting has to
either carry those items in her hand or bring a
whole purse with her, a definitive, silent sign that she
is a woman. So what you're basically saying is that
there's this added visual acknowledgement of gender differences, which we
actually know if you look at the research on uh,
there's some interesting research that's been done on perfumes. Perfumes

(17:48):
that are especially feminine sort of just provide a little
sensory reminder of your womanhood can backfire in interviews. Interesting,
So even though it seems really small, like tiny detail,
it can still sort of come up and weighs that
you maybe you don't expect. Well, it sort of gives
you this impression, oh, she's a girly girl, or the
purse can be like what kind of purse is it? Is?

(18:10):
She a kind of woman who has a nice purse
that she takes care of, or like me, trashes every
purse she's ever owned because I can't seem to keep
any of my belongings in nice shape. And what does
that say about her? It's just another way for people
to judge you. Interesting. This is kind of a random anecdote,
but I have a friend who is a military wife,

(18:31):
and one of the things that she says of all
the sort of hurtful, ridiculous stereotypes about military wives, one
of them that I found the most curious was if
she owns a coach bag, that means like that the
stereotypes is that means something about what kind of military
spouse that she is, which I found very unusual, like
such a specific thing. Oh, because it plays into the

(18:52):
fact that like military wives are just leeches benefits of
like the governments exactly. So they say, like, if a
woman has a coach bag and she's trying to you know,
she's a military spouse, that means that she's yadd some
some negative stereotype there. So it's interesting how these markers
of femininity, even though they seem quite small or quite
you know, like they're not big deals. Actually people can

(19:15):
use them to make unfair assumptions about what kind of
person you are exactly. Yeah, that's a good point. And
I also, on the flip side, have bonded with many
a strong, powerful, influential woman over purses. Yeah, you know
what I mean, Like in our own company here, I
was gonna say, is someone you're thinking of, Well, there's
a certain someone in the higher highest ranks of leadership

(19:37):
and how stuff works, who is a boss lady? All
shout out to the fact that we've got women running things,
running things that how stuff works, one of whom is
like intimidating, lee, powerful and awesome. And I met her
in a very formal boardroom like setting when I was
just interviewing for this particular job and I'm trying my

(19:58):
best to be impressive, in articulate and also humble and
courteous and respectful all the same time. And uh, you know,
it was a pretty formal exchange until we met up
again later in a less formal setting at the bar,
and my ostentatious turquoise purse became the thing we bonded over.

(20:19):
And now I'm like, oh, I'm in we got this.
We got this relationship on lack and look at where
we are now. Yeah, it seems like I worked out well.
It didn't work out well. So it's just an interesting
thing how in a male dominated space, your purse might
be something that holds you back. But when you're when
we have more women in leadership, maybe purses can. Like
you and I've bonded over backpacks, Maybe purses can actually

(20:40):
be a way to bond with one another. Well, it's
interesting that you bring up purses because the history of
the handbag actually has a lot to do with why
the pockets on women's garments tend to be so sucky.
And let's dive into that after this quick break and back. Now.

(21:01):
I know that I've been complaining about pockets today, and
maybe you've been complaining about the pockets on your garment,
but women have actually been complaining about the lack of
pockets on their clothing for quine of a long time.
Back in nine o five, Charlotte pet Gilman wrote, one
supremacy there is in men's clothing is adaptations of pockets.
Showed this in The New York Times. She continues to say,
women have from time to time carried bags, sometimes sewn in,

(21:23):
sometimes tied on, sometimes brandished in the hand. But a
bag is not a pocket, and she's rights. In nineteen
fifty four, Christian Duor was quoted in the Spectator of
saying men have pockets to keep things in women for decoration,
because God forbid, I have an important thing to keep
on my person. Well, it's just like it kind of

(21:43):
reminds me of the biking episode, in which it is
a very systematic discrepancy between it being socially acceptable for
you to actually have the freedom that comes with riding
a bike versus women who ride bikes like, oh, they
could be up to anything. Well, you actually see a
lot of that same idea playing out when it comes

(22:05):
to the history of pockets and women. Totally. Back in
the medieval era, most women had little bags or sort
of satchels or purses tied around the waist. That eventually
folks began sort of hiding their bags under petticoats, which
was a discreet way to say I have things, Right,
I'm a woman who owns stuff, and might you know,

(22:26):
have whatever I damn well please in my pockets. But
I wouldn't ever brandish those pockets basically in public, visible
to all. That would make me a radical woman. And
in the late seventeenth century, even when pockets became much
more commonplace and sewed into men's clothing, women did not
have built in pockets because that would have been taboo.

(22:47):
So they continued to have these sort of tied on
versions until the French Revolution really changed the game when
wide skirts were out out with let them eat cake
style of the French Revolution, and what became much more
in vogue were skirts closer to the body, sort of
less flamboyant really, so there was less room for pockets,

(23:08):
so that whole pocket conversation became null and void for
women who continued to carry the reticule, a small decorative
purse instead of God forbid they should go out in
public with pockets, because they would be outing themselves as
a woman with things, maybe having things of her own.
God heaven forbid you have to carry things and be

(23:28):
a woman. But I love is that. In the eighteen hundreds,
the Irrational Dress Society began pushing for women to abandon
the stiffness. Of course, it's for looser clothes that had
lots and lots of pockets. Radical radical, can you imagine?
Founded in eighteen nine, the Rational Dress society called for
women to dress for health, ditching corsets in favor of
boneless days and bloomers, wearing loose trousers and adopting clothing

(23:50):
that allowed for movement, especially bicycling. So it is connected,
it is, it's very much connected. It's very much connected.
An eight New York Times piece made this really really funny,
maybe sort of tongue in cheek claim that civilization itself
it's actually founded on pockets. They right, as we became
more civilized, we need more pockets. No pocketless people have

(24:12):
ever been great since pockets were invented. And the female
sex cannot rival us while it is pocketless. So basically,
this was like a very overt and clearly insecure male
person saying, um, you know, let's keep women out of power.
Let's not allow them to have pockets. I've often, and
this is not a research point, it's just my own opinion.
I've all think about that heels with the same way, Right,

(24:33):
while women are tottering around on heels, we'll keep them well.
Then used to wear heels all the time during the
American Revolution, right, So if you think about it, men
ditched heels. They kicked off the heels and women's heels
got taller. I almost wonder if the men were like, Hey,
we're having trouble getting from point A to point B
on these heels. This is dumb. Let's wear regular shoes
and then pressure women into wearing heels. Actually, I think

(24:56):
that's the next episode, right, I think we have to
do on that our how a tire got gendered, because
think about it, like, did you know that for button
up shirts, men's buttons are on one side and women's
buttons are on the other. Like, there are so many
weird little particulars about gendered clothing that have these fascinating histories.
Oh my gosh, let's do more on that. I love that.

(25:17):
So just bringing it back to pockets for a second,
this idea of pockets for women was a total game
changer for gun toten bike riding women, which I thought
was amazing. Back in one designer of women's bicycle costumes,
which were what they were called at the time, the
things that these daring women who biked might actually wear

(25:41):
even included pockets for pistols. Quote, not all of them
want to carry a revolver, said the anonymous tailor, quoted
by The New York Times at the time, but a
large percentage do and make no bones about saying so.
Even when they do not tell me why they want
the pocket, they often betray their purpose by asking to
have it lined with duck or leather. So basically, this

(26:02):
tailor is like sewing in ducklined pockets for these women
on bicycles to carry their hand guns with them. And
you've got I mean, you've got to hand it to
these pistol packing bike riding Turn of the century women
in bloomers and split skirt suits because they're right to vote.
You know, granted in the Nineteenth Amendment was still twenty

(26:24):
six years away when these women were practicing their Second
Amendment rights. Well, what I love about this is that
it almost goes back to our episode about biking and
that are all sort of connected to this idea of
freedom where they can have free reigin men don't know
what they're getting up to where they're going, and it's like, yeah,
I'm a woman that's got to carry and stuff to
do when it coulis to be Yeah, and I've got
pockets and you don't need to get to know what's

(26:44):
inside of them exactly. It really comes down to being
a symbol of freedom and mobility. Isn't it funny though,
that like a pocket was considered so much more suspicious
than a purse. What the hell? I'm not a gun owner,
but I would imagine you'd be a lot more likely
to put a gun in or boot. Yeah boot. Think
about the West, you know the women of the West.
They all are packing pistols and stockings. Sounds like our

(27:06):
next episode. All I can think about right now are
the women of West World, which we should we should
unpack that series. I don't see they had a kshop
on it. I'm obsessed. Okay, I got it. This is
my next my next show. Okay, do so again. You
have pockets playing out through all these different parts of
history when it comes to women. Um, pockets were a big,
big part of the suffragette movement down if you think
about those white suffragette suits that are that our sisters

(27:29):
used to wear a lot of times those head pockets.
In nineteen ten, the New York Times had a headline
that said Bundy of pockets in the suffragette suit. And
it really makes the point that pockets is connected to
voting or being someone that's interested in voting. The article
goes on to say it has pockets of plenty, and
it's exactly what you'd expect for a woman with polls
on her mind. I love it. And they go on
to say that it's all within sight and the things

(27:52):
in her pockets would be easy to find even for
the wearer. So I do you think it's funny that
what's radical about that is like someone is daring to
wear pockets in broad daylight and broad daylight, like what like,
what are they doing? Right? You don't know, you don't
know what she's up to. So if you want to
pack a deep dive into the history of pockets, I
definitely recommend this really long throw article un Racked. One

(28:13):
of the points they made about pockets and the Suffragets
is that there was a kind of anxiety around women
that had pockets. They write this last bit about visible,
straightforward pockets hints at all the lingering anxiety over women's clothing, privacy,
and property. It's not merely that women will strut with
their hands in their pockets on point to challenge men.
It's that women's pockets could carry something secret, something private,

(28:35):
something deadly. Yeah, you never thought about pockets as being
this mysterious. I mean, we just carry simstick in ours,
but you don't know what we got in there. You know.
It makes me feel like I need to get some
more edgy pocket filler. It. I'm like, maybe my chapstick
is disappointing a little when when you think about that
some women were expressly using pockets to carry guns, your

(28:56):
chapstick seems a little bit wimpy, right, Not that we're saying,
like a kidding, lock and load in your pockets, get ready, patriarchy,
we should do an episode women in gun control always smokes,
that's a good one. So I really like, it's interesting
how something as small as pockets actually has this really

(29:19):
dense political and gendered history. But you know, why don't
we even think about women's clothing versus men's clothing in
the first place. Let's talk more about that after this
quick break and we're back talking about men's pockets versus
women's pockets. But really, what's the big deal with gendered

(29:42):
clothing anyway? Like, why do we have clothing that's this
kind of way for men and this kind of way
for women that doesn't seem to be the way that
gender plays out, And so it's interesting that that's the
way that it plays out when it comes to clothing.
I mean, we've seen the rebellion on the toy aisle, right,
We've seen how the Pink Barbie aisle and the Blue
Boys toys I have become a thing of the past.
And I love seeing that retailers are starting to question

(30:04):
whether these strict binary sections for women's versus men's clothing
really makes sense anymore. And I would I mean, I
would argue that most of our listeners to identify as
women shop in the women's department, and the question is like,
should there be a women's department? Well, that's the thing.
I mean, we know gender isn't a binary, so it
seems like we should stop treating clothes like their binary.

(30:26):
I actually do wear a lot of men's clothing because
my style icons are probably James Dean and Pugsley Atoms
from the Atoms and way sort of they had a
kid and that kid wore a lot of black. Uh
So yeah, I definitely am down with a little bit
of you know, unisex clothing. But I think it's interesting
how you see big retailers who can really be shaping
how these industries think about gender and clothing, saying no,

(30:49):
we're gonna move away from gendered things and have a
more unisex vibe. Self Ridges, a high end department store
in the UK, announced that it was getting rid of
gendered floors and it would just have three floor a
fashion merchandise together so that customers could shop according to
their own self expression. And other high end designers like J.
W Anderson, Rick Owens and rad Harani have championed gender

(31:12):
neutral clothing and the approaches filtered down to the high
street sort of H and M and Zara, which have
both created non gendered ranges, which I think is really
interesting because a androgynous style has always been a mainstay
on the runway, right, I mean, you've even seen it
more like on the runway these days. You've seen a

(31:33):
lot of notable examples of people just having you know,
more androgynous style, which I always thought was really cool,
really cool. And I really think that the hipster moment
was a turning point because hipster fashion, as cliche as
it has become, that sort of Brooklyn beanie wearing hip

(31:53):
look looks very identical when expressed by someone who identifies
as a man versus a woman. And there was sort
of this weird backlash I think when hipster style became
more mainstream, which was that you've stolen the look of lesbians,
or that you've stolen this look from like the game movement.
And I wonder if like the mainstreaming of gender neutral

(32:15):
dress is a co opting Oh that's fascinating of like
LGBT style or is that a good thing? Is that
a bad thing or is it just the thing that's happening.
I don't know. Yeah, I will say that when so
I came of age and like the scene ster hipster time,
if you remember that time, it was the adds. So
we were all dressing kind of weird, low slung jeans.

(32:36):
But I remember when skinny jeans became a thing. My
then boyfriend was wearing my jeans. We were just like staring.
We were just like wearing each other's jeans, which I love. Yeah, Brad,
and I still do that. I actually lent a guy
a pair of jeans. I don't think I ever got
those back. Well. I really hope that this pushed towards
unisex and gender neutral clothing will get us the pocket
equality we all know we all deserve, yes, because pockets

(32:57):
are functional as they are fashionable. The idea of adding
pockets to something for the look without the functionality makes
me wanna tear my hair out. So I would rather
see retailers justes chewing pockets altogether than adding a stupid
decorative pocket just to create frustration and disappointment. In bridget
Todd specifically, yeah, yeah, save you the trouble. But we

(33:19):
all know. You know, when you try out a dress
and it has really good, deep, functional pockets, it is
the best. I love how Tracy Moore put it over
at jez Bell And trust me, this is gonna sound
like an exaggeration, but I don't believe it is, because
this is how much I appreciate good pockets. Humor me.
I want you to remember the last time you bought
a piece of clothing with pockets, real ones, usable ones,

(33:40):
ones that fit things like the standard night out keys, phone,
I D lip gloss compact. It's a rare thing. No,
maybe an a line dress or skirt, something vintage with
a full bodied lower half, and the moment you discovered
that not only was the fabric perfect, the fit amazing,
but there were actual functioning pockets. Let me ask you
was not the greatest moment of your life. Did it

(34:02):
not add a skip to your step? Were you not
astonished each time you reach down and slid your hands
into the outrageously useful fabric compartment? When women complimented you
on the outfit, did you not reveal to them with
exclamatory glee that it also possessed something unexpected and lovely?
And was that thing not pockets? I think that is

(34:23):
so true because you're on the dance floor and someone's like,
nice dress, and you're like, no, you don't understand this.
This thing has pockets. It has pockets. You're like, check
it out, like you don't even know how great this
romper is. Girl, let me show you. Okay, pockets, full
on pockets. It makes you want to empty them out
and like turn them inside out. I got this many.

(34:44):
I have had many a drunken night in a lady's
room at a nightclub where I'm like, oh, you think
this is a nice dress? Check nipped it out like
it's like you're it's like the bass drop on. And
they're always like they always get it women when it
comes to pockets. Women always it. And then it becomes
where did you get this we need this in my life. Yes, yeah,
that's so true. It's bonding over pockets. Well, Smithy listeners,

(35:06):
I hope that we just bonded our podcasts. I know
you and I just bonded our pockets, But I want
to hear from you. What has this experience been like
in your own time? What do you think about the
rise of non gender binary clothing being available? Do you
have any feels when you put on the pants of
your loved ones and it fits or doesn't fit, or

(35:27):
what does that experience like for you? Do you wish
you had more pockets all the time? Have pockets revolutionized
your life? Tell us You can reach us on Instagram
and tag us in all those pocket pictures at stuff
mom Never Told You, tweeted us on Twitter at mom
Stuff podcast, and send us a good old bass and
email at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.