The Feminism of Finances

How does knowledge around finances empower women, and how does it relate to feminism? Financial coach Caroline Snyder joins us for a conversation all about women and money.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Manning and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
I never told your protection of I heart radios how
stuff work. So today we're talking about money, money, which
we've actually talked about quite a bit um. It is
a huge It's hard to overstate how important money is

(00:30):
to everything everything, and when we're talking about women and
feminism and equality, money is huge. There's so many issues
you could think about, the pay gap, the investing gap,
the paint tax. And then today I learned there's a
gender pay gap in allowances. Boys make more money in

(00:52):
their allowances. Girls do twice the work for less pay,
and boys are likelier to get an allowance. I almost
flipped my dang desk. This was so mad. That's not okay. No,
it's not okay. And the more I thought about it,
the more I really can't. Paigned hard for an allowance

(01:13):
in my family because I, as the listeners know, I
really wanted to save a bunch of money. I had
a big concern about I don't know, not having any
money and not being able forward a place to live.
So I pushed really hard for it. But a lot
of stuff I ended up getting paid for I was
doing anyway, Oh yeah, we didn't get allow so we
were just told you get food. Well I only got

(01:38):
it for a couple of weeks and then they took
it back from me. Um. But it's it was just
kind of the outrage of it because my brothers. I
was doing stuff and not getting paid for it, but
my brothers would get paid if they would do the
same thing. It's right. Um. Women are also more likely
to be impoverished when they retire. And then we've talked

(02:00):
about all kinds of things that impact women's finances more
than men's, like UM, caring for elderly or sickly parents, UM,
child care. In general, divorce impacts women's finances more than men's.
One study found that a woman's household income drops by
after a divorce and after being widowed, compared to around

(02:22):
two for men. And then another study i I found
said that in the United States, compared with the average
single dude, the average single ladies network is three times smaller.
That's significant and all of this is a huge part

(02:43):
of the conversation when we're talking about feminism, because yeah,
it just impacts everything. It impacts your your ability to
move freely in the world, start a company, whatever it
might be. Um, so we thought we would bring in
an expert today. UM, I believe as you hear this,

(03:03):
it is the new year, the new decades. Happy new year, yes,
so what better time than to talk about money? Right,
hopefully it's less of a you know, stress sorry dumpster
here o, Happy new year. Wow. We really don't have
high hopes for joining in. I do have high house

(03:24):
because twenty nineteen was so horrible. Okay, yeah, yeah, no,
it won't be as much of a dumpster fires here
is hoping. But to start out the year and hopefully
better year, we have an expert to talk about finances.
So let's go ahead and get into our interview. So

(03:44):
my name is Caroline Snider. I'm a financial coach and
I work primarily with entrepreneurs and freelancers. Um, but really
it was kind of a wide range of people. I
say that I'm a financial coach for feminists, and the
reason I say that is mostly to make sure that
certain people don't reach up to me and ask for
help who I don't want to work with. It has

(04:07):
been a very good tactic. Um. And unlike a kind
of traditional financial advisor, I don't do any asset management
so not controlling anybody's money. Um and people only work
with me for a limited period of time. So I
work with people to help them gain the skills, knowledge,

(04:28):
and competence they need to reach their specific financial goals.
And that could be something that takes three months of
working together or six months or nine months, but whatever
that time period is, it's based on those goals. And
when we're done, we're done. And what led you to
this career? Yeah, so very round about. I really hated money, finance,

(04:58):
mass business, kind of the whole shebang for most of
my life. UM So. I started out my career as
a social studies high school teacher. And while teaching, I had,
i'll say, the opportunity because I think of it is
that now, but I didn't at the time, um, to

(05:21):
teach financial literacy to teenagers. And at the time, I
was very much in credit card debt um terrified to
look at my bank accounts, would cry a lot when
it came to jack time every year because I was
just so confused and overwhelmed. UM. So not exactly like

(05:41):
poster child for who should be teaching anybody else anything
about money? But through that experience I realized one that
it's not as hard as I thought it was, um
and too if I'm looking at it from a perspective
of an educator. Then all of a sudden, a lot
of things started falling into place. Um and when I

(06:03):
had been looking at it in the past as uh,
just kind of like a cut and dry this is
what you're supposed to do or not supposed to do,
and this is how math works. Those things weren't falling
into place for me. It doesn't make sense, there was
no connection or had worked. So after teaching financial literacy
for a little while, I ended up deciding to leave

(06:24):
the classroom, go back to grad school get my m
b A. And then I worked in traditional financial advising
so A management and UM benefits consulting for a while
before starting my own coaching business. And I think about
coaching now, is this incredible marriage between education or I'm

(06:46):
very much still a teacher and helping people gain the
knowledge they need in this kind of taboo area of
the world, which is money. Um and I love taboos,
so do we. I know that's one reason I was
very excited to be here today. Yes, and we're excited

(07:10):
to have you. We found when we were researching this
before we got started. We found one survey that UH
found that six women would rather talk about dying than
talk about money. Why do you think that is? Why
do you think we're so nervous when it comes to
talking about money? Totally? Well, so, I think there's a

(07:33):
couple of things that are happening all one one we
are very much taught to not talk about it. So UM.
One of the things I work on with clients a
lot is is there money narratives, their own personal money narratives,
like why you think the way you think about money,
and then how do we modify those to make them

(07:54):
be more healthy and helpful for you in this part
of your life. And one of my own personal money narratives,
UM came from just being shut down a ton as
a kid anytime I asked questions about money. So there's
one very specific memory of asking my dad how much
she made and he yelled at me UM, And like

(08:18):
that was a moment where I was like, oh, this
is a completely off topic conversation, even amongst family, even
amongst like loved ones and people who it's okay to
talk about other things and ask questions about UM. And
that's really common, Like that experience that I had is
not special in any way, So we societally and often

(08:39):
in our um families are taught to not talk about it.
That's that's part of it. We are not taught any
basic knowledge in schools. So as of I think it
was two thousand eighteen, might be two thousands seventeen, but
I'm pretty sure she was an eighteen. There are only
seventeen states that require finance hill literacy as part of

(09:01):
the court um and actually I was teaching it in
Louisiana and they got rid of that wall I was
teaching the State of Louisiana removed that as part of
the curriculum UM and seventeen is the highest has ever been.
So if you're currently in school in one of those states,
you might be getting a little bit of the knowledge,

(09:23):
but there's no way for us to know, like, what
does that actually look like? Is it someone like me
who's in a bunch of credit card debt and doesn't
know what's going on teaching you financial literacy, because that's
not going to be as good as someone who actually
knows what they're doing. UM, And we don't know how
long it is, right, it might be like a week long,
and you might be learning how to write a check,
which is not terribly helpful information. So humans just naturally

(09:49):
are uncomfortable talking about things that we don't feel that
we're good at, especially when we're told simultaneously that it's
something that you should just be implicitly no because you're
an adult, so you know, I think about like hashtag
adulting um. Money is part of what we're just expected

(10:11):
to be good at and maneuvering in society. We're expected
to know how to handle it, even though we're given
no resources and told to not ask questions about it.
So it makes sense that we don't want to talk
about it. It's scary and we feel dune, when in
fact it's okay, like if third makes no sense for

(10:32):
us to have known this stuff before you ask questions. Absolutely,
and I feel I'm actually really fortunate because I've I've
grown up with friends who were very open about money, UM,
and I'm learning now that that was I was very
lucky um and it's pretty rare, but I do think

(10:52):
they're What I've experienced is either I'm afraid I'll get
judgment for making too little or too much, So that's
something i've had to face totally well, and if you
think about a workplace environment, so there are often rules

(11:13):
put in place by management and HR that says that
you cannot talk about how much you make with your colleagues.
So there's this institutional systems in place to keep us
from talking about it. Um, So then you have no idea, right,
It's like, oh, am I killing it? And I not

(11:35):
able to handle my money well and I make so
much more than the other people around me, or am
I not making what they're making? And like you just
don't know and you're not allowed to ask, which is bonker. Yes,
it is ridiculous. So this might be a total long
shot if you if you don't have this information readily available,

(11:57):
then don't worry about it. But I was wondering if
you would give as a brief, very simple history of
women in finance and then sort of an overview of
where we are today. Yeah. Um, I won't have like
perfect dates for you, Okay, I did, um, although I
will say that I'm currently writing a book on this

(12:20):
will be perfect dates at um if I ever finished it.
Writing a book is a lot of process. I had
this like a moment a couple of years ago. I
was like, yeah, I can just like knock that out
in like six months, completely completely insane. UM. So this

(12:45):
is actually true pretty much globally. There are exceptions to
this rule, but most societies are controlled by the men
in our lives, right, and that has been true historically.
So women have been systematically help um put in a
place where they're not able to gain power. And one

(13:07):
of the ways they're not able to gain power is
that they're not able to own property or um wheeled
money on their own right. And like that has just
been true for hundreds and hundreds of years. Uh. In
the United States, it wasn't until the seventies, and I
want to say at seventy eight, but I could be

(13:29):
wrong on that year that women were allowed to get
credit cards on their own. So until then they were not.
We were not able to get loan basically um to
then have money to do whatever we want to do
with it without having either a husband, father, brother co

(13:53):
signing onto that process. So if you think about that,
like that is not that long ago. That would be
my mother who would have had that experience. UM. And
if you're trying to make big changes in your life,
often you need access to capital, right, Like, if you

(14:14):
want to start a business, if you want to change careers,
if you want to move, most people don't have savings
set aside to be able to do that easily on
their own. Um. And most people don't have kind of
family money or outside help to be able to do
that easily on their own. Obviously their exceptions to both
of those things. Um. And that's where credit becomes really powerful.

(14:37):
I'm not saying like credit card debt is a great thing,
but being having access to credit gives you the ability
to make changes in your life and that really didn't
happen until the late seventies for women in this country. UM.
At this point, the statistics are still pretty depressing. So

(14:59):
only percent. I'm just going to come throw out on
a couple of ones that I know off the top
of my head that make me angry, so you can
be angry with me. Only women's founders speak funding speak
outside funding, and of that only I think it's like
thirty actually received funding um, which ends up meaning that

(15:24):
women founders get about two of DC venture capital funding total.
So like that is a crazy tiny amount of the
tie that women today are able to access. And again,
like yeah, Accessing that money is not the end all

(15:45):
be all, but accessing that money means that you're able
to grow in a way that without that money you're
obviously not allowed to grow. UM. In the US, the
ownership of wealth has changed pretty radically. So it was
just a couple of years ago, I think it was
seen or eighteen when women now are control more than

(16:09):
half of the wealth in this country, which is exciting, UM.
But worldwide that's really different. So it's like seventy trillion
dollars of wealth something around that that women control versus
like a hundred and fifty trillions that men control. UM.
So clearly, while the US is about fifty fifty, that's

(16:33):
not true in other parts of the world, and in
some places it's almost nothing that women control. UM. And
I don't even think that like fifty fifty in the
US is it's just like a bare minimum, right. It's like, well,
there's also more women than men, so we should control
more of the wealth the men can control the men control,

(16:56):
Like just that's the mass that should be happening. UM.
And just because we're controlling more of the wealth doesn't
mean that we're using that wealth UM to really further
causes that are important to women and impact women on
a day to day basis. Yeah, I also want to

(17:19):
ask a question other sad statistics. Well, I'm about asking
those sad questions. So here we go. Okay, if you
don't have the answer, that's fine to it. But I
know one of the things that is slowly being talked
about a little more and more as would talk about
UM when it comes to domestic violence and abuse in situations, Oftentimes,
finances is one of the main reasons that women remain

(17:39):
with their partners or UM those who are in partnerships
because of that, and there's this control. UM. Can you
talk a little bit about what you've seen with changes
that need to be made, even like the conversation of
what we need to have in realizing this is a
form of abuse. Yeah, I actually think that's a really

(18:00):
good link back to what I was saying about access
to credit UM, so in abusive partnerships, even if technically
you were allowed as a woman to get a credit
card on your own, it doesn't mean that you will
be able to do that UM or have a big

(18:21):
account on your own that isn't linked to your husband. UM.
The one one thing I think about in the abs.
This is a little tangentile, and I'll come back to
what your actual question was. But if you have um
like spending power on a credit card that's in somebody
else's name. So let's say like I had a credit
card and I add my husband to that credit card,

(18:45):
I can see everything that he buys if he logs,
he has to log on it with my log in
to see anything, like it doesn't go on too his
log in, even if it's through a bank that we
both have UM. And So if you're in an abusive
relationship and the way you have access to money is

(19:07):
all linked to your partner, then that person is going
to be able to see and control everything that you
do with finances UM and you won't be able to
see it separately. So like you can't see what they're doing,
they can see what you're doing. So that puts anyone

(19:27):
in that situation at a disadvantage because now we're talking
about it can't be done electronically because the partner is
controlling all of the money UM. So you have to
be able to kind of stock away actual cash to
be able to leave that relationship in a way that

(19:52):
feels safe, right, like money is power, money is safety. UM.
So you have to have money to be able to
get out of that or have access to other people
who have money who are going to be able to
help you and protect you. Um. And in this current society, like,
do either of you ever have cash on you? I mean,

(20:18):
like I like I have a a financial coach. I
live in l A, which actually in a place where
like cash is kind of helpful because parking is stupid
and you have to valet regularly, which is very annoying. Um.
I could go on a ten minutes rants about that,
but like I don't ever have cash. Like when I
have cash, it's because I split a check with someone

(20:41):
and they randomly had cash and I decided to pay
for and they paid me back in cash. UM. So
actual cash is hard to get and so it becomes
really important that people are able to have their own
independent control of their money. UM. I think your question
is like what do we do about those that? Right,

(21:03):
it's just kind of like what you see and the
changes that we can be making where we can focus
on and trying to bring awareness to that as being
a type of abuse. Yeah, so I think it starts.
There's kind of two things that I have in my
head going simultaneously based on that question. So one is like,
how do we prepare women to be able to control

(21:26):
their own money and use money to get out of
situations that are abusive? Um? And that starts at an
early age, That starts in family homes, having conversations, that
starts in schools. And I'm a huge proponent every single
person needs to learn financial literacy in schools. And it
cannot just be learning how to write a check because
that is not helpful. UM. So that's part of the

(21:49):
piece of the puzzles, like we have to be empowered
from the young age to be able to use money
in a way that lets us get out of situations
um the we don't want to and should not be
in the other piece of the puzzle is actually having
the conversations that we're having right now and recognizing that

(22:10):
as a form of abuse. So knowing that this is
part of the problem is important because it's not actually
a conversation that we have a lot of the time,
like how often have I heard this and just like, well,
you know you're being abused, Like then they should get
out of it. And that is just really simplifying a

(22:33):
very complicated problem. Um. And not only is there an
emotional aspect of that that makes it really hard to
get out of an abusive relationship, but there's actually legit logistics.
So I'm not an expert in this area, and I'm
not going to pretend to be an expert in this area,
but legislatively, there needs to be ways to make sure

(22:59):
that women who are leaving abusive relationships have access to
money to be able to stay out of those that relationship.
Because I don't know the statistics off the top of
my head, but I know that many times when women leaves,
they end up back in the same situation again, and
a lot of times that's because they don't have access

(23:21):
to the money that can help them stay out of
bad relationships. And you add like kids in there, and
things get real, real complicated. Yes, absolutely, And that's something
I've seen on maybe a not as high stakes scale,
I guess, but I as I've gotten older, a lot

(23:43):
of my friends, UM, their moms have stayed in relationships
they wanted to leave because in this in this relationship,
these relationships and thinking of the father, the dad, UM
had control of all the money and they felt there
was no way for them to leave. And as you say,

(24:06):
in the seventies that's when our parents generation, my parents generation,
my mom could get a credit card, could get loan.
So it's like heartbreaking well and thinking this, my parents
situation was not abusive and they are you know, a
good team together. However, when it comes down to it,
my mother was very young when they got married, got

(24:26):
pregnant very young, and so she I don't think she
ever had a full time job ever, um. And part
of that is because she also wanted to stay home
with children. But that means she also had no experience
to get money. And but she with all of that.
My dad was a great provider at all of that.
But he was definitely that very much stereotype of head

(24:46):
of the household. He maintains all of this, He brings
in all the money and you just figure out how
to maintain the home. Um. And so if something had
gone wrong, my mother would have been in a lot
of a lot of situations, like a big situation of
what do I do? Because of course, as you have
said earlier, mania times they also have the young ones
or children that they have to take care of, and

(25:07):
they are responsible for and a lot of that, especially
if it is a an emergency situation, they have to
leave all those different things and they're not going to
get money immediately from the partner to support the kids.
That's one more way of controlling that situation if that
is the case. And again, like I said, my parents
were not in a situation, thank goodness. But the fact

(25:29):
of the matter is it would have been a giant
nightmare and a cycle as we see all the time
for her to come back because she could not do
it on her own. And I think that's a big
conversation that we you know, we've all talked about. But
well now we've both women in the industry or um,
those of us in the industry that have seen it
or have looked at it, know that this is one

(25:49):
of the biggest problematic issues that's not being addressed as
an underlying issue and as like a way of controlling
the situation. UM. So it's the Violence Against Women Act,
which I should have already known, UM, which was slowly
dismantled during this administration. And because they are starting to
talk about are about, oh, you know, it's just a
family issue, we don't need to control that whatever. But

(26:11):
it was there to protect things like this in order
to be able to call this abuse because oftentimes it's
just seen as a problem, a financial problem, and it's
individual and not as a group or a setting or
a family setting. And it protected those who are victims.
And now it's kind of been dismissed and is kind
of going back to well, it's his money, it's their money,

(26:34):
so you really can't ask for it if you were
the one that left, which is a whole big contention
of so how do we prevent this? Now that at
one point it was acknowledged that this is an abusive
power and and uh in a manipulation that is abusive
to this person and violating their their rights. Now it's
kind of gone back away, and it's kind of that
conversation of Okay, how do we fix this, how do

(26:55):
we look at this, how do we have this larger
conversation about why things like this is important? Yeah, well,
and I think this is a very important conversation to
have from um with any partnership when you're dealing with money.
So I have a couple of clients all the time
who are trying to figure out, like, do we combine everything,

(27:20):
do we keep things separate? Do we keep something separate?
We combine like in this way or in this way,
and it gets really complicated. And the truth of matter
is often the easiest thing is just to combine everything,
but that is not always the right move and it's
not always the wrong move either to be totally transparent,

(27:40):
Like everything for my husband and I is combined. I'm
also a financial coach and definitely the one dealing with
the finances regularly in our family, and like that's what
works best for us, um, but it doesn't work best
for everybody. And I think if you've either experienced manipulation

(28:04):
or abuse them in some way, UM, or you just
want to make sure you're really maintaining your autonomy and
that you're not sure how to protect yourself. Making sure
that some of your finances are separate is a way
to do that, UM and the way each person should

(28:25):
do that. It's gonna look a little different, right so
along that, what would you say are some things to
consider when you're coming into a partnership, whether it's marriage,
or whether it's living together, whether it's buying a house together.
What are some advice or some things that you would
say to look out for or pay attention to in
the process of making a decision to whether or not
you're going to combine or keep it separate, or how

(28:47):
to even do it. Yeah. Yeah, so step one is
really having a conversation about what is happening for real.
So a lot of many use like romantic couples in general,
A lot of romantic couples. I wish I had a

(29:07):
statistic on this. There's probably some terrible not accurate like buzzfeeds,
but um, a lot of compoles. Just anecdotally, I will say, like,
I don't know what each other's financial reality looks like.
So maybe they know how much each other makes, maybe
they don't, um, but often people don't know how much

(29:30):
debt we're in, Like, don't know what credit score you have,
don't know if there's you know, retirement savings, other investments,
family money, like all of those things need to be
talked about so that you are coming into the relationship
or the next phase of that relationship in a really
transparent and trustful way. Um. You know, like getting married

(29:55):
and then finding out that your partner has a hundred
thousand dollars of credit card debt. That's pretty rough. You
want to know that first. I'm not saying you don't
marry the person necessarily, but having that knowledge is really
important to be able to go into the next phase. UM.
So that's step one. Step two is doing some really
personal thinking and reflecting. I am a big proponent of

(30:18):
journaling when it comes to this kind of money. Work
on what's going to make you feel best? So is
combining everything going to make you feel good? Like why
or why not? Is keeping something separate going to make
you feel best? Like? What are those things then going
to be? Do you want to keep everything separate? Um?

(30:41):
And then just be aware that there's if it's the
legal partnership. So if you get married, um, even if
you have everything exept like that's what feels best to you,
kudos to you if that's what it is. Um, Legally,
it may not be able to stay that way. So
uh um. In many states we have what's called community property,

(31:04):
and uh. Community property means that whatever I own, my
partner owns, and vice versa. Fifty fifty um. So even
if you keep things really separately, just like fy I,
you may not actually be separate. It might still be

(31:25):
fifty fifty um. And that's when you know for some people,
like prenuptials makes sense, or having a will that's really
clear with separate money makes sense, whatever that needs to
be for you. But doing the reflecting on your own
before having that conversation with your partner is really important,

(31:45):
so that you can walk into the conversation with your
partner knowing like what your lines are, so saying like
maybe if I want to at minimum have a separate
checking account that I'm a to keep that has nothing
to do with you, and I put money into every
single time I get paid, or maybe that's like where

(32:08):
my money comes when I get paid, and then I
put money into a joint account. From there, we have
some more of our discussion around money, but first we
have a quick break for a word from our sponsor,

(32:32):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's get back into it.
I did find a lot of studies showing that couples
who have regular conversations about finances are happier. And I
also learned about financial infidelity, which I knew was a thing,
but I didn't know the term. This is secrecy or
dishonesty about money, basically lying or hiding something. It could

(32:55):
be debt or you're sifing off money, lying about how
much you make, paying for a secret family, having a
secret credit card. That would be an infidelity. But it's
that over multiple multiple of the respondents in the in
the married couples of this survey, admitted to lying or

(33:15):
hiding something about money. I thought was pretty shocked. Is
hiding the same thing as like not telling? I think
that was lying about it, well, hiding. I mean maybe
maybe you're you're just not up front about how much
you make, and you let them believe you make a
lot less then than you do. It doesn't have to

(33:37):
be outright lying. I think hiding implies that your manipulating. Yeah. Yeah,
But I think that word shame is really important because
we're that comes from someplace, right. So um. I regularly

(33:57):
have clients where like, I'm ashamed in to tell my
partner how much I spent on x um in whatever
that X is. It's often like a category of spending
that for some reason they feel really guilty about. Uh.
So often I just clothing and personal care come up

(34:18):
a lot in those kind of guilty areas, And I
think often those things that we feel shame around are
the things that we've been taught our fellow lists or
like bad to send money on my personal belief And
I think this is what we would make everyone so
much happier in life, is that we just like get

(34:40):
rid of all of the guilt around all of this,
all the reasons like this category is bad or not
bad and instead of what do you actually want? What
are your values? What's most important to you? If getting
a weekly massage is what brings you just boodles of joy,
that is a good I stopped myself from swearing there,

(35:04):
then why is that a bad thing? You're weekly massage?
That's cool as long as you can afford it and
aren't going into debt because of your weekly massaged and
like that's great and it's not. Yeah, yeah, that's really
funny because it brings me back to so on one
of my credit cards my mom still has, she's like

(35:27):
the power person in it, so she can see what
you do. Yes, And I've tried to change it, and
of course it's never worked, but I didn't know she
was still getting like this to change it. She does, yeah,
and she's still getting the statement. And randomly she asked me, so,
why do you order so much food at three? Oh? No, Mom,

(35:50):
I'm a city girl living a city life. You can
see the exact time too. She just doesn't just get
the statement, wow, that's the whole level. I'm pretty sure
when you order food after a certain time, it's marketed
in a specific way. So late night order, well, that's
a shame fact right there. Let me order what I
want to that's right, that's right. So a good point

(36:14):
that it's not always romantic partners' yes, familial as well.
I definitely had a moment when of reckoning when I
learned she had for years been able to see what
I was buying, a mechanic of oh no, oh no,
that's pretty funny. You know. One of the things that
I've recently seen a lot more of, or I think

(36:35):
the conversation is coming out a lot more of um,
is literally having businesses shame people in order to manipulate
what people are being paid and act as if you're
getting way more than others. So don't you dare tell,
because you're going to make yourself look bad. And then
when you start really having competition, you realize you're all
making the same. They just don't want you to ask.

(36:56):
Sure and more, I feel like for women, especially it's like,
especially a woman who is maybe climbing the ladder slowly
being really shamed too. Well, you know you're you're getting
this much. Not everybody's getting that. Why do you think
it's such a big part of Well, First of all,
I think that carries into our own shame factor in
working talking with what that coworkers not want to say

(37:19):
out loud just in case we're going to shame them
or make them feel bad, which I like to make
people feel guilty. And I'm like, I'm a social work.
I make nothing, buy me stuff. But that's a whole
different level. That's just a whole other level of shame
from me. But what do you think that is the
reasoning and why do you how do you think that
may affect or does it affect women more than others?

(37:41):
I think it totally affects women more. Um, I'm just
going to speak without any research or data to back
myself up right now that I'm right. I think that
narrative of being told like don't tell you're doing so
much better than other people and you don't want people

(38:01):
to feel bad, do you. Um, it's hooper manipulative and
the people who are doing that know what they're doing, right,
Like they know what other people are getting paid, and
they know what you're getting paid, and they're doing that
to cover their own boots and to kind of protect

(38:23):
the narrative that that company is UM it has for
its UM what like employee welfare or culture right like
whatever that narrative is the reason why there's that manipulation
going is to protect the company and not to protect

(38:45):
you as a person. UM. Women. The reason why I say,
like I'm confident that this impacts women more than men
is that women are societally, at least in the US, UM,
in most places, are taught that it's really important and
our roles to make sure that other people around us
feel happy and secure and safe. UM. You know we

(39:09):
talked about like people pleasers. We're not just like born
people pleasers. Were taught how to be people pleasers from
a really young age. UM. And that's done systematically in
schools and by your parents, so UM and other adults
in our lives. So when it happens from a company perspective,

(39:34):
like the company has kind of being like parental and
that situation telling woman child in this situation like don't
rock the boats and people listen unfortunately. Um. And there's
a real fear of reprisal too, because if the company
has an actual, um kind of like rule in place

(39:55):
where you're not allowed to talk about it, and then
you do talk about it, there could be repercussion for you,
and that's scary. Yeah. Yeah, we did an episode on
paid transparency a while back and it calls quite the
kerfuffle and they let it go up. But it was
one of the few times where they've actually intervened in

(40:16):
an episode topic that I did. Yeah, um, yeah, they
it was a very subtle intervention, but I knew it
was happening. One thing I was wondering if through through
your work, if you've witnessed differences in how men and

(40:37):
women handle money are maybe just how they're expected to
handle money, or or just stereotypes that really impact women
when it comes to money. Totally, So transparency, I worked
with very few men so I worked with are usually

(40:57):
usually in a heterosexual couple, and I'm working with the couple,
and in those situations, never has been the man who
has thought me out, and it's always been the woman. Um.
So you know, since from a professional standpoint, I'm not
doing a whole lot of comparing because I'm mostly just

(41:18):
one group. Um, so you know, just keep that in mind.
But the expectations that we put on women I see
all of the time. So there's kind of two that
I think come out the most frequently. One is like
you're bad at money, um, and you're supposed to be

(41:41):
bad at money because you're a woman. And the other
thing is like you as a woman, and this is
especially true with women who have long term romantic partnerships um,
and even more true if you have children. Women are
supposed to be in control all of the house along

(42:01):
with everything else. And so therefore, like if the money
and the family is not going well for whatever reason,
then that's your fault. So those two narratives together make
no sense, right, Like you should be controlling the household
and doing a really good job of it, and so
therefore you should somehow be very good at money. Simultaneously,

(42:22):
you're a woman, so you're bad at money. Um, that's
the mind. Like I do not know how you're supposed
to maneuver between those two narratives, um, and do that well,
and neither of them are healthy. So the way it
often comes out with those folks that I work for
or work for. I mean, I guess they do work for,

(42:43):
but work with. I don't think of it as work for.
Weird slip, I should think about that. Um. The folks
that I work with is that they're coming into the
conversation saying, like, I know that I need help, and
I know that this isn't working well, and I know
there's a lot of stuff that I don't know, and

(43:04):
that's why I need you financial coach to work with
me collaboratively to get us to where I need to be. Um. However,
I also have always thought I'm bad at this, so
don't entirely believe that I'm ever going to be actually
good at it. And that is heartbreaking and something that

(43:28):
I completely understand because I felt that way for a
long time. It took a lot of school and education
and personal work and honestly a lot of therapy for
me to go to the point where I actually trusted
that I was good with money. Um, even after years
of being good with money, and I still like to

(43:49):
be totally honest, like I still on my low days,
like I have a doubt where I'm like, maybe I'm
terrible at this, and like what am I talking about?
This is not true. Um, but those doubt they're really
really ingrained, and it means that people often don't trust
what they're doing even when they're sure that it's the

(44:11):
right thing. So for example, like, um, you're working at
getting out of debt and you're following a plan for
how you're getting out of debt, Um, there's still maybe fear.
They're like, I'm not doing it right, or I couldn't
possibly keep up with this, or something's going to go
wrong and I'm going to mess it up. Uh, And

(44:32):
that narrative. I just don't think men get that in
the same way, like I don't think men are taught
as young boys to feel that way the way women are. Um. Yeah, yeah.
It reminds me of the my school. In elementary school,

(44:53):
we got to play and I was immediately cast this
the shopoholic and all of the little girls in the
play we're shopoholics who couldn't control their What a weird play.
It was weird. It was a local place Schoolholics elementary.

(45:15):
I had a lot of I was gonna say, it
wasn't just like Hey, I wrote a play and it
is by a fifteen year old girl or a fifteen
year old boy who says, mom, is this way or something?
Actually like the third role I ever had behind tree
number two, shopholic number one. So I proved up like
what I don't need? You didn't wait? Wait? Wait? Is

(45:38):
this just like your neighborhood girls got together? Yes, and
we decided we would all be shotolics. You did it
after the video of the board, Dave, didn't you mall madness? Madness? Oh?
I forgot about mall mad Look I'm that old I was.
It was a new thing and I was like, what

(45:59):
credit card? Oh my god, you know, Okay, that's just
me cool. I don't know about that. Fine, this is okay,
So you're yes. I was just saying that that that
kind of stereotype you're spending it on, like you were
saying frivolous things and you can't control you're spending. You

(46:20):
were bad. See. I grew up in a whole different
stereotype because my mother was the coupon queen and budgeted
not no other I will say. She was kind of
in charge and making sure all things were handled in
our house. Um. She may not have been the breadwinner,
but she absolutely knew what was needed each month, had
those ready to go um, But yeah, I know she was.

(46:44):
Everything was either store brand, the off brand Laura Laura
was or and if it was ever a name brand,
it's because she had a coupon every time, every time.
And yeah, so for me asked what women did what
clip coupons? Which I did. I helped my mother do this,

(47:04):
by the way, and I had this satisfaction of cutting
it perfectly on the little dash dashes for it was um.
But I never use coupons myself, except for like Kroger
I have on my car does that you can up
that you can upload and I don't have to do
anything else for it. But my mother had a whole
system and that's a big thing today, Like I feel

(47:27):
like that you see a lot of women that's a
women thing coupon and that's what I've seen when you
totally do you now, I know you just said you
don't do the coupons, Like do you now feel pressure
to No? I feel weird about it to me, Like
I'm like no, i' because when you're correct, I was

(47:48):
one that didn't get a conversation of why it's important
to budget and what that looks like. It just it's
just that's how it was, and for me, I felt
like I missed out, which is completely privileged conversation Asian.
Um that I've missed out on a lot of things
because we were always cutting corners and trying to save
as much as possible. And again this has to everything

(48:08):
to do with the fact that my mom and dad
got made very young, had three children, and then had
foster kids, and then had me adopted me. So I
had a large family to provide for with one person
having the main job and neither one of them having
anything more than a g D or a high school diploma.
So very very that kind of level. So for me
growing up, I felt a little bitter that I didn't

(48:30):
have the piano lessons or like the extracurricular activities or
I definitely wore the hand me downs, a lot of
hand me downs, um. And yeah, I didn't take the
school lunch. I didn't take back lunch to school because
that was a privilege to you know, buying these cute
little snack packs, you know, that wasn't a thing. So
growing up after the fact, I kind of felt a

(48:52):
little RESTful. Yes, yeah, that was that was the privilege
to me. You know, the juice boxes I didn't have those. Yeah.
I remember being in the grocery store went with my
mom and like really wanting legibles, which disgusting, but my
mom was just like like absolutely not, Like you're going

(49:13):
to have your PBNJ that you have every single day
from kindergarten. Ye. Yeah, I know. I definitely got the
dollar fifty money, yes, still on fifty to go buy
my lunch, and I would save that. Sometimes I wouldn't
need lunch and just save it. In the week, I'd
buy a diet soda and something. At the end. I
was so tricky, But yeah, that's definitely something that I

(49:35):
kind of grew up because I saw that, and I
saw that as and again at comes into shame factor
of having to do all of that, which was brilliant
on my parents part um. For me, it was like
a shameful thing. Ye yeah, and able to provide as
much as they did for us, and definitely healthy. I
was definitely healthy, good um. But coming back like later,

(49:56):
felt that shame and saw that as being a lower
class way of living, poor people living, I guess, and
I felt like I shouldn't do that. And that's still
of course. Part of part of that is also I'm
very lax and lazy when it comes to coupon ing,
and I'm just gonna go for whatever's easiest at that
point time. Don't get me wrong, I love a good deal.

(50:16):
I love good deal, but at the same time, I
don't seek it out like my mother. I absolutely would
And yeah, I had everything to do with a shameful
need for me to prove that I'm okay, I can
do these things, I can afford this. Yeah, yeah, I
guess that kind of is a good segue into Um.
One of the questions we wanted to ask, which is

(50:36):
a huge thing for this show and for feminism, is intersectionality.
And you've talked about how privilege and background and family
dynamics and all sorts of things influence our relationships with money.
Is that something you can expound on. Yeah, so I
talked about this a lot. Um. The more financially privileged

(51:04):
you are, the less people you often feel like you
need to understand money, Um, just because you just have it.
It's just like appears right, um, And I think exactly
what you were just talking about, Like the when you
aren't coming from a place of privilege, it feels important

(51:24):
to understand it. But then there's this added we talked
about Shane, which I think is important part of it.
But there's also this added like expectation that you're going
to be able to do all of the things with
a very limited income, which is impossible, right, Like, we
live in a society that's very capitalist and very materialistic. Um.

(51:51):
I feel like, particularly I used to live in I
lived in New Orleans for about fifteen years and then
moved l a couple of years ago. I'm like, Wow,
the way people decide to spend money here is different.
In New Orleans. It's all about like alcohol and costumes. Yeah,

(52:14):
in the l A. Um, it's just a lot of everything,
to be totally honest. So I feel like I just
totally derailed my own thought process in saying that. But
privilege is inevitably part of a conversation about money, and
if we pretend like it's not, then we're not doing
ourselves or the topic of money or the topic of

(52:36):
privilege justice. Um, if you come from privilege, understanding that
not everyone just has these things that happened, UM, is
really important and powerful to be able to talk about.
So I talked about this pretty regularly. I'm very privileged UM,

(52:58):
I don't have school debt. My parents paid for my school,
my high school, not my high school. I went to
public school, but the college and grad school. UM. I'm
a white woman, I'm straight. I have education that has
been able to get me to where I am today.

(53:19):
I don't have any family help like i've My business
has been me bootstrapping my business to make it what
it is. Um. But the fact that I don't have
student loans means that I was able to take a
risk of starting a business and that I knew it
would be okay, right and very And the reason I

(53:40):
knew would be okay because I just didn't have all
of those extra costs of having students debts. Um. I'd
also already gotten out of credit cards that by the
time I started my own business. But that is a
privilege that I have. In recognizing my own privilege is
really important for me to be able to do the
job as a financial coach, but also to be a

(54:02):
feminist and live in the world. UM. So recognizing our
own privilege, and then if you're not coming from a
place of privilege, to be able to get to a
place of privilege financially is going to take more but
it is so crucially important if we're going to get

(54:23):
anywhere in the world. Right Like, the whole idea of
feminism is that there's equality, and right now there's not equality.
And the reason I think that there is not equality
is amongst people is that not everyone has access to power.
And the reason why not everyone has access to power

(54:46):
is because not everyone has access to money. And the
way we get access to money is through education and
knowledge and then strategic action. UM. And I think that
is one thing that is sore missing in the conversation
right now. We talk a lot about like legislative change,
we talk a lot about vernacular, we talk a lot

(55:08):
about um like actual equality with the law, but we
don't talk in within society and how we interact with
each other. But we don't talk about money. And the
truth of the matter is that you need money to
get anywhere. I mean, like to think about how our

(55:28):
current administration has gotten where it has gotten, right Like,
the reason why Trump was elected is because of money
and his fame around money. Um. Even then ignore it. Yeah,
he's bad at it, like if you building, and which

(55:53):
is also why the whole tax returns and all of that.
His papers as not us, but people are asking to
And that's such a huge fight because again, I mean,
not only is there, it's not what he it's not
what he's pouting himself to be right, for sure, but

(56:14):
can we talk to talk about the fact that there
are people who So I was just reading an article
yesterday in which Uh, an NFL star who won a
Super Bowl, was trying to invest his money, which he
has money, but actually a bank stopped him just because
he was a big black man, essentially uh and saying

(56:35):
assuming that he can't he couldn't keep up with what
they were requirements were for in specific type of investment,
and they actually said that to him, and not only that,
not and it was more of a context of saying
that because the man he was talking to, I think
was a black employee and he was just trying to
be honest. He's like, hey, yeah, these people are racists.
We're you know, we as a company are not going

(56:57):
to trust people of colors, specifically black people. And I'm
just talking about, um, this being a black athlete who
could afford it. You think about women women of color
who are working their butts all trying to provide for
whatever being told, even though you're trying, is still not enough,
and we don't trust you based on this color of
your of your skin, and because of the inherent racism

(57:20):
that will always remain seemingly um and hopefully that will
change one day, but can you talk a little about that.
And I don't know, I don't know if you have
any experience or having conversations with people of what that
looks like and having the understanding of this is a thing,
this is an actual thing, and we need to acknowledge
this bias because it prevents people from living. As you said, yeah, no,

(57:44):
it's absolutely I mean, it's just the fact that, like
we could an anecdote after anecdote after anecdote, that is
happened daily, um, in all parts of this country. And
that is why I'm a big opponent of supporting the
businesses that support you. Right, So going to women owned businesses,

(58:07):
going to businesses owned by people of color, and making
sure that those are the places that you patron um.
That's are words that you patrona Yeah, okay, cool English,
the English language. Yeah, it's tough. So making sure that

(58:34):
this is what I call voting with your wallets, so
as you are gaining knowledge around money and control of
money and therefore having more money to be able to
use more wisely and more strategically, that we're furthering the
cause of equality by making sure that the money is

(58:56):
not just going back into the hands of the oppressors. Right. So, like,
I don't know what bank that was, but that's NFL
player went to, but that bank should not be gone to,
like they don't deserve his money. There are other institutions
who will be able to provide the same services and

(59:19):
do it in a way that doesn't involve racism. UM.
And sometimes those institutions are smaller, they're often more local.
Sometimes they're not able to do quite as much as
the big I'm specifically thinking like the big banks of
the world. UM. But if we want progress to be made,

(59:39):
the only way those smaller organizations and companies are going
to be able to get to the size where they're
doing everything that you want them to do is by
you investing in them as UM a customer and as
a client. And that's unfortunately, I think it's sacrifice that

(01:00:03):
we all collectively need to make. UM. Those we keep
putting money into the hands of the people who are
making sure that they keep the money away from everybody else. Then,
I mean, what what do we expect to happen? They're
gonna keep doing what they've always been doing, right, They've

(01:00:24):
really figured it out, right, So just out of I mean,
and again you may not be able to answer those
because it is a very specific question, um for a
black woman or a woman of color or um. And
I'll say this is and I specify black women because
we know obviously that there is a hierarchy and there's
a level of racism within people of color as well,

(01:00:46):
and so that's automatically something that we need to acknowledge
and move on. There is there as a level within
that community, and some are more ostracized than others. And
I think black women are some of the most um
for secuted, essentially most discriminated again right, Um, So for
a woman who who is of who is black, who's

(01:01:08):
trying to create a bit or go for a loan
for a business, what would your advice to them be
and how to how to search for the best option
and trying to propel their business. So looking at um
financial institutions where you already have a relationship, and this
is true, I would say for black women and also,

(01:01:32):
just like people in general, this is good advice. So
if you're seeking alone, um, starting with financial institutions, so
you already have a good standing with So that may
be a bank that you've been with for a really
long time, it might be a credit union, whatever that places,
but that being your starting point um. Because even though

(01:01:58):
there's a rubric, right, so every financial institution that is
giving a loan uses some sort of rubric. They're not
going to tell you what it is, but they're gonna say,
like a dude, does this person meet all these requirements?
There's also a person who's actually doing that, and there's
gonna be biased that whether or not they know they're
bringing that bias to the table, they are bringing that
to the table um and we all do that all

(01:02:19):
of the time every day. So going into place where
you already have a relationship gives you a leg up
on being able to secure that loan. Um that step one.
If that place, for whatever reason, is not a good bit,
and it might just not be a good bit, not
because of who you are, but because they don't offer

(01:02:41):
what you're looking for. Then looking for things where you
are able to access capital, maybe in potentially in a
less like UM traditional way. And this is very annoying
to say this because this should not be the case.

(01:03:02):
But if you really feel like you've been you've looked,
you've tried to get loans, you've been denied UM, then
going with the last traditional route. So like Kiva dot
Org is an organization that does small business loans. They
started out doing UM like micro lending in other countries,

(01:03:23):
but now they do small business loans in the US.
They would be a good one to be looking at UM.
There is like a crowdsource funding aspect to them, which
can be a reason to not do it UM, but
looking at those less traditional sources to get a loan
so that you're able to use the capital that you

(01:03:45):
should be able to get UM. And just to kind
of like plug financial coaches in general, and I guess
myself specifically to having an expert in your corner can
make the world all the difference because often there are
some things that you can do financially before speaking out

(01:04:06):
alone to make it much more likely that you're going
to get approved to that loan. And I don't really
have like a blanket this is what you should do.
It really depends on each individual person's financial reality UM
in situation, but there's often things you can do ahead
of time to make it work in your favor, be

(01:04:29):
more likely to look in your favor. And we have
even more to say about finances, but first we have
one more quick break for word from responsor and we're back.

(01:04:53):
Thank you, sponsor. I was wondering since you've since you've started,
as we we close up this decade, the most expensive
times of the year and we're entering a new decade,
are there any trends that you've observed or are things
that you've witnessed. I thought you were gonna ask her

(01:05:14):
if she had any investment investing put all my money
in Disney. I am not answering that one. Then we
all got arrested. Yeah, like that's a great way to
get in trouble. Yeah, they're so just to end, like,

(01:05:37):
if we're ending the decade in a positive note, I
would feel like there's several things that are happening that
I am really exciting. It's exciting I'm really excited about
So there UM is a general push for companies that
we interact with that we are customers of to be

(01:06:01):
UM supporting the values that we want them to support
and that makes me really happy. So the fact that
there are more companies who part of their mission is
to do good in whatever way they want to do
good in UM says a lot of good things to
me about like where our economy is going, and the

(01:06:24):
fact that customers and the public are using the power
of their own purses UM to push the economy in
a direction that we feel better about UM. So that
makes me really happy, and I think that will continue
to be the case. UM. I think that the several

(01:06:50):
just like social movements of the decade have helped us
collectively talk about things that were uncomfortable talking about out
so like me too, has helped us talk about um A,
discrimination and sex and abuse in ways that collectively as
a society we've not ever been comfortable talking about before,

(01:07:12):
and people are still uncomfortable with it. But like we're
moving the needle, and the more of those things are happening,
the more I see people are getting more and more
comfortable talking about money too. And it's not just blanket
across the board that everyone's comfortable about it yet, and
I don't expect that to happen in the next decade either,
But as we realize that conversations are key to moving

(01:07:37):
the needle forward in any way. I think that's happening
with money too, and that gives me a lot of
hope for the future. Um yeah, those two things are
the things that hold onto his hope and really like
the more. We haven't talked about this too much today,

(01:07:58):
but we've talked a lot about like what we want collectively,
where we want the world to be going, and like
moving towards the place of the quality um Ideally, today
I feel like moving towards the place like so well,
but actually getting action. Um there. It starts with each individual.

(01:08:21):
So you as an individual understanding your money and being
able to reach your financial goals on your own, and
then that just snowballs. Like I think about, like as
an individual, you're now competent and knowledgeable and what you
want to do with money. You're then able to impact
the people around you by sharing that story and helping

(01:08:44):
them get to where they want to go. And that
snowball effect is really real, and I think that is
what's going to tip the scales towards women not only
controlling over half of the wealth in this country, but
also being able to control the power um, and large
institutions and the government and companies, and that's what's going

(01:09:07):
to push equality in a much more quick and real way. Yeah,
so I do have some resources. So one, anybody who
listens to the podcasts and wants to do financial coaching
with me gets ten percent off of a series of

(01:09:28):
financial coaching and that series is based on your goal.
So the number of that lead you together. So that's
step one. Thank you, m Yeah, so that it makes
it a little more affordable, okay, esen And to you,
why is the promo code for ten percent off? So
that's that's definitely. UM. The other there's a couple of things.

(01:09:54):
If you are looking for something that is one free
and self guided, I highly recommend what I call money
dates and money dates. Are you sitting inside time by yourself,
like fifteen minutes is good? You can do more, that's great.
But in this money date, going through your recent transactions,

(01:10:14):
making sure there's no fraud or something that looks wrong,
because that it is real. UM and sorry, I've been
trying to be very good about yeah yeah, better than
I do. Okay, thank you great. UM. So that's step one.
And then checking in on your financial goals. So first

(01:10:38):
creating those goals where do you want to go, creating
plans for how to get there, and if you need
help figuring that out. I have some articles on my
UM the Verity Advising blog, Security Advising dot Com that's
D E R d I Advising dot Com UM so
money dates totally free, self guided, but they really help

(01:11:00):
just getting you comfortable with dealing with money. So like
setting aside a time once a week, once every other
week to just look at the account, it does help. UM.
And then there's a couple of books that I love.
So The Soul of Money by lend Twist is one
that I think I like end up reading every year.

(01:11:21):
I just like keep coming back to it UM. Another
one that I've recently been really into is The Behavior
Gap by Carl Richards. And then a couple of websites
blogs that I love. So The New York Times has
your Money section. Sometimes it's like actual actionable like things
that you can do it will help, and sometimes it's

(01:11:42):
more just like personal finance stuff in general. And I
love that UM. Financial Best Life is a good blog,
so it is making sense of sense UM. And then
a two podcasts I like, UH Bad with Money with
Gabby done and afford anything or both too good month
and just to plug myself for future months since Financial

(01:12:05):
Feminists podcast that I'm hosting is coming out the spring
and it'll be all about money, all free stuff. Oh cool,
is not all bleak, It's not all bleak. And I'm
I'm personally like not a big resolutions person, but I

(01:12:26):
love that other people are like, I'm just what I
do with resolutions poorly. Maybe I'll do a better job
for resolutions that I don't, Yeah, be better resolutions. So
it's like I always come up with something that I
don't actually know enough about. So I'll be like, I
want to take pilates and I'm going to do that

(01:12:47):
every week, but like, I've never taking a piloties class
in my life. What if I ate the pilates class
and then it doesn't work and then I'm a failure.
So that's how I often do resolutions. It's bad, don't
do that. But I love this time of year because
I think it helps people feel more comfortable being like, Okay,

(01:13:08):
for real, I don't want my relationship with money to
be so poopy, and there are things that I can do,
so whether it's getting a financial coach or getting a
financial advisor, or taking a course, or reading more podcasts
or doing money, doing something on like whatever that is.
It's kind of a beautiful time. People feel comfortable making

(01:13:30):
changes and that makes me happy again. I'm just gonna
try to be positive because I end up on a
hopeful upbeat note. Um, is there anywhere the listeners can
find you? Yes, so you can find. My website is

(01:13:50):
Verity Advising dot com. That's again the E R D
I um fun fact, Verity my granddad's middle name. He
hated it, but he's dead, so so I misspelled it

(01:14:12):
to make it you know something. I was like, you
can't be like totally mad website, and he and my
brother named his son after that. There you go, that's great.
I love that. I love a good uh work the

(01:14:33):
name ordering him, but yet it did and I don't know,
yeah yeah, it's all good like backhanded honors like yeah,
um yeah. So that's the website. I'm on Instagram at
Verity Daily and my email address, which you can find

(01:14:53):
on my website or my Instagram is Caroline at Verity
Advising dot com. And I love chat about money. So
even if you're like, I just have questions, please read
out to me DM me email me. Um. I'm always
happy to talk, much to my own detriment. Probably that's

(01:15:14):
good for podcasting though, so podcasting casting there you go. Yeah, yeah,
not great for like getting the things done, unless that's
podcast There you go. Oh, so true. I'm see I'm
helping myself and moving land. That's right. I'm just sending

(01:15:35):
myself up for success. Yes, there we go. Lessons learned
right now. Yes, and that is promo code Sminty and um. Yeah,
keep an ear out for Caroline's podcast, and thank you

(01:15:55):
so much for joining us. Thank you so much, Thank
you much for having me. This has been lovely. This
brings us to the end of our interview with Caroline.
It was a delight It was very delightful. Yes, yes,
I I'm feeling a little better. I'm thinking of the
ways to, you know, better deal with money's feeling so ashamed. Yeah,

(01:16:21):
I think that is a big, big piece of it.
My three am deliveries I'll reconsider, you know, you enjoy that.
I'll look at them in a different light. Perhaps, don't
let your mom worry about it. It's fine, I have
to say. My mom's defense. She was more tickled by
the whole thing. Hey, at least you're eating food. I mean,

(01:16:42):
that's the I've said before. One of my biggest city
girl spoil is that I can order food whenever, and
when I go home to my small town, I always forget.
Not only can you not order food whenever, you can't
order it hardly ever, nothing delivered to where we are.
So perhaps she was just so shocked that, you know, Atlanta,

(01:17:06):
you can get all kinds of things at three. First
of all, yes, I know, I know, but we would
love to hear from from you listeners. If you would
like to email as you can or email is Stuff
Media mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can
find us on Instagram at stuff on Ever Told You,
or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always

(01:17:26):
to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks thanks to you
for listening. Stuff I'm Never Told You was a protection
of I Heart Radios. How Stuff Works for more podcast
on my Heart Radio. You can listen to the iHeart
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