December 13, 2019 • 40 mins
The definitions of shame and guilt are still the source of much academic debate. In this episode, Anney and Samantha talk gender differences when it comes to shame, blame and guilt and dig into the science of victim-blaming.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
I never told your protection of I heart radios how
stuff works. So before we start this one, I have
confession to make. I feel very guilty. I got my
behavior at the party. Lest nay, I do not good
(00:29):
for you. I do not. Yeah, I think I maintained
I feel shame for some of the things I was
gonna come out maybe j K J. Yeah. I actually always,
I almost always feel really guilty after I UM at
a party. Well, no matter what, I don't know. I'm
(00:50):
just like, I get in my head about if I
embarrassed myself for what were people thinking of? How it
is behaving? Um, because I am definitely viewed as a
party girl. That is something I know, and I am
that's accurate because you maintain I I am there, I
am there to party and have fun, and I Yeah,
(01:12):
if you invite me to something, it's pretty much guaranteed
I will show it right and I will probably not
be there. Yeah. Or if you're like, um, I might
watch The Winter Soldier and then I'm at your house,
but first finish the text. I could sense it. Um,
or we watch three movies instead of one? I do
(01:32):
I actually do feel bad about it because I was
I went into that. This is for our our feminist movie. Friday,
we did a Batman Returns. I really went into that thinking,
I'm going to watch this one movie we work. It
was a Monday. The next day was and I'm going
to go home and I maybe responsible. And then it's
three am and we've watched two and a half movie,
right right, So sorry about that. But we're talking about
(01:56):
guilt and shame and blame and why women are so
easily aimed and so quick to take on blame. Right
And before we get into the episode, I didn't want
to put the trigger warning here. We're briefly going to
talk about things around sexual assault, miscarriage, domestic violence, mental illness, addiction,
and self harming behaviors. We're not really going to get
too deep into any of that stuff, but if it's
(02:16):
triggering for you putting that out there, Um and yeah,
I guilt is like my best friend. I feel guilty
all the time, and I feel ashamed all the time.
Um and yeah, I feel like sometimes I get this
deep shame that when people see me, it feels like
my skin is crawling and I just want to make
myself really small and invisible. I don't want people to
(02:38):
look at me. Right, Um, I do the same thing.
I think it's natural for women, especially women with a
lot of trauma. I think in general have and and
i'd say women, I mean anybody encompassing into those who
identify as female. Um, that it just kind of becomes
a part of who you are. It's ingrained shame of
(02:59):
what you should be, the expectations of what you think
is perfect or the idea of perfection, whether it's look,
whether it's your jaw, whether it's just maintaining in society.
I think it's overall overwhelming since of I'm not meeting
these levels, so therefore I'm failing, and therefore I feel
guilty and I feel ashamed of who I am or
(03:20):
what I've done. And I think that's just a really
hardship that it's really hard to let go of, especially
if you've learned that as a child. It's just a
part of your identity and it's hard to shake for sure. Yeah,
And I think it goes hand in hand with for
people who experienced trauma, feeling like you don't want to
draw attention to yourself or I, like I said, in
(03:42):
our many series that we did. I feel like I
have a wound on my face and like everyone can
see it, like it's really obvious, and so you don't
want people to see that thing that you are ashamed
of you feel is really visible. And I, um physically
manifest this and I kind of like twist s uff
in a pretzel and I don't even realize I'm doing
(04:04):
it until someone will point out, like, what's wrong with you?
Are you? Are you having a panic attack or something?
And I don't have to unwind. Um. So I didn't
even recognize it a lot of the time. UM. And
there actually is a lot of science around the differences
in definitions between shame and guilt, which we're going to
(04:27):
talk about. But I thought that was so interesting. So
we're gonna give you the definitions, but there actually is
some disagreement on them. Um. So first we'll start with guilt.
The definition of guilt is a judgment of wrongdoing and
from the Merriam Webster, the fact of having committed a
breach of conduct, especially violating law and involving a penalty,
(04:47):
or the state of one who has committed an offense,
especially consciously. Yes. Um. And then there's also they go
on to expand there's feelings of deserving blame, especially for
imagine defenses or from us sense of inadequacy self reproach,
a feeling of deserving blame for offenses. So guilt usually
involves correctly or incorrectly perceived responsibility, like I it was
(05:11):
an abnormal action or choice that I made. I feel
guilty about that thing. Um, Yeah, and it usually leads
to actionable things to make amends. And also today I
learned that psychologist calls self punishment due to guilt the
Dabby effect Harry Potter reference. Yeah. Yes, And there are
(05:33):
a bunch of different types of guilts, right, and one
of them is survivor's guilt. And I know we've talked
about this previously, the guilt felt of surviving a traumatic
event when others did not. This might even involve believing
you did something wrong to survive. Experts positive that it
comes from an irrational belief that there's a limited amount
of goodness in the world and any good a survivor
experiences comes at the expense of someone else, and just
(05:55):
kind of on a personal level. For an adoptee, there's
a whole different level of survivor guilt as in fact,
if you um research enough, there's a lot of discussion
on the message boards and support groups about how to
cope with survivors guilt, whether it's guilt from surviving a
bad circumstance when the others didn't, guilt fulfilling like you
haven't met a certain expectation, or the filing you have
(06:16):
to earn your keep um. And there's a lot to
be said about the constant reminder from others about how
blessed someone should feel. Uh, And I think just place
not being grateful. It's not the same thing as guilt,
which is sometimes a manipulative tactic used on children. And
with that, I see this in the foster systems as well,
where there they say you should be grateful, they will
(06:37):
come to the children oftentimes be like, how lucky are you?
You've got all these things? And there's this level of
responsibility that you have to constantly show appreciation and that
if a you are questioning maybe your biological stance of
your family and trying to find them, then then you're
not being appreciative. If you're questioning and disagreeing with some
(06:57):
of the views within your family, then you're not being apprecy.
There's just this whole level of guilt as well as
the fact that if you aren't showing and showing off
being the perfect family that you have, somehow messed up
this family. And I even had guilt as being an
adopted person within a family that had biological children from
(07:17):
taking away attention quote unquote from those those biological children.
There's a whole different thing and it's something that and
when we talk about survivor's guilt, again, this is completely
different from just traumatic guilt. But it's a whole different
thing that that's a big discussion and oftentimes has to
be unpacked in therapy and in intense of therapy from
(07:38):
a specialist. And again, like I said, it's often times
seen in the foster system as well. And then when
something goes wrong and they're getting taken out of a
placement or something, they feel that they are the blame
and they are the reason that something has failed, a
placement has failed. And speaking of that, there's a different
type of guilt which is a separation guild. Yes, um,
I didn't want to say, and you know we should, God,
(08:00):
no one would like to happen to me. We could
do a whole episode on Harry Potter and these like
survivor guilt, because that was something Harry Potter would be
a mess. He is way too functional, way too functional.
But Uncle Vernon and you saw say that to him.
You should be grateful for the cupboard that we put
you into. Anyway. Yeah, that another type of guilt, separation guilt, UM,
(08:23):
and this is the belief that separating or differing from
family or friends in some way harms them, right. And
that's definitely again as I've seen in UM a lot
of foster care systems or when even when detaining children
separating families, there's a lot of traumatic issues and a
part of that is that separation guilt, whether it's from
the parent, whether it's from the kid. And there's also
the whole thing with pets. They have separation anxiety and
(08:46):
they kind of freak out, and it's that same level
two of that, are they coming back and if they
don't come back, it's my fault or if we're not together,
it's my fault. Yeah, And I mean you can also
see this in uh, like in my mom's family, everyone
is really conservative but her and just having that guilt
(09:08):
of like I don't agree with you and you feel
bad about it, even though yeah, it totally makes sense
that we have different opinions and viewpoints, but you betraying
the family exactly. Yeah yeah. Um. Then there's omnipotent responsibility guilt,
believing that one is responsible for the happiness of others.
I connect with that one, so rush. Um. Self hate guilt,
(09:30):
which is an extreme self loathing. This typically comes from
an abusive past. Then there's mommy guilt, and this is
a term that gets thrown around quite a bit when
we talk about women and guilt and yeah, and on
this show we've discussed in depth about the pressure is
placed on moms to be perfect and perfection is impossible,
(09:51):
so guilt is therefore inevitable. UM. Women are also conditioned
to be a child's primary caretaker, which means if something
happens to a child, the there feels guilty and is
probably being blamed by those around her as well. This
judgment of mothers can and often does lead to feelings
of shame, and we see this play out all the time. UM.
(10:12):
And the blame the mother trope. If if a man
becomes a serial killer, blamed the mother. If he's not happy,
blame the mother. If he can't find a job, blame
the mother. If he married somebody who's not good for
him or some blame the mother, all these things. And
then of course I got to mention Hereditary because it's
my favorite movie every uh no spoilers, but Tony Collette's
(10:32):
character Annie, Um, she touches on this in her group
counseling session where she says, I am I feel like
I am to blame or I am blames and it
has to do ultimately with something we're gonna talk about
a minute, but I'm um her genes, genetics, Hereditary, And
then Scream also got to talk about that because some
(10:53):
one of my favorite movies, that entire series is pretty
much to blame the mother trope. It's these moms fault
for literally everything in every movie. The serial Killer in
the second one even says I'm sick to death of
people thinking it's all the mother's fault, you know, as
she's trying to kill all these people, and yeah, she
(11:15):
kind of reinforces the trope. She calls it out and
then reinforces it. Um. Yeah, it's just just something we
see often. Yeah. So another aspect of this conversation is
the postpartum guilt and or assigning blame when it comes
to things like still birth and miscarriage. Experts positive this
is a coping mechanism to find meaning in a sense
(11:35):
of control in a really tragic situation, and feeling this
way in the wake of a tragedy is totally normal.
But if it persists or becomes chronically debilitating, that points
to a deeper issue. And one study found that almost
fifty of women blame their healthcare providers for their child's
death when surveyed a year later. That could mean that
they won't trust healthcare professionals moving forward. And that makes
(11:57):
a lot of sense because they need to blame some thing. Yeah,
and if it's something outwardly it does it puts It's
a lot of pressure on um, many of those who
have given bars and or have lost child for sure.
Several studies have looked into the guilt of a mother
um and the guilt she often feels that passing on
(12:17):
genet conditions to her children. The research indicates mothers feel
more guilt and face more blame for sex linked conditions
as compared to men. Screening programs for pregnant women that
identify autosomal recessive disorders are viewed as the responsibility of
women who want to get pregnant, so not doing so
(12:38):
invites guilt and blame. Yeah, and then there's white guilt, um,
And this is a case where guilt can be extremely hindering.
It can lead to inaction through fear or perhaps even
looking for an excuse not to act. And this also
means more emotional labor for people of color basically white
people asking them to make people of color may make
(12:59):
people to make them feel better, right as in fact,
in our episode on forgiveness, we had a listener talk
about it, um and send us a message and it's
absolutely correct. So there's a narrative that seems to be
continuing with this his who whole idea, especially after the
trial of the murder of both the Geane in which
the brother and the judge hugged Amber Geiger after her
sentencing um. And it was kind of that conversation of
(13:21):
all right, this is a sign of forgiveness and how
we're going to move on. But the black community felt
like this is one more scene in which a person
who was innocent and was black was murdered and they
had to turn the other cheek and forgive, and everybody
was praising this whole idea instead of saying, okay, but
this is not true justice. They got the tenure sentence,
(13:44):
she whatever, and at least she was convicted. However, this
is still not the biggest steps because this man was
sitting in his apartment minding his own business and he
got shot down, and we know things happen, whatever, But
it's this continuous verba in which there is this idea
that you need to let go, and there's this pressure
put it on the black community saying, oh, just let
(14:06):
it go. Why are you so angry? Especially black women,
They are caught up in this whole trope of you're
supposed to be forgiven. You're supposed to be forgiven, and
if you're angry, why you're not allotted that time or
allotted that emotion, to be honest and saying this is
unbelievably unforgivable, and I am angry, and I think again,
(14:28):
this is where the continuous debate lingers between all the
lines of boundaries as well as talking about forgiveness versus forgetting,
and why is it that we expect a community to
continually turn the other cheek and when it seems to
be a continued a piece of relationship for this community
in which the black people are told let it go,
but nothing is being done in the name of justice. Instead,
(14:49):
there's all these unreasonable arguments about why they should let
it go and move on. And that's not okay. And
I think that's part of the conversation that's not had
enough when we talk about blaming others, that when someone
should feel guilt and shame, that the other person should
let it go. And that's not necessarily how we should
(15:11):
be right, just just a little tied right there, just
a little tir uh that what speaking of tire rage feminism, Um,
Feminist guilt is another thing. Um. This was my very
first episode I did was about being a bad feminist
and the guilt I feel around that. Yeah, because we
hold ourselves up to a set of standards that are
(15:34):
virtually impossible to live up to all the time. Um.
And this opens us up to judgment within the community
as well. Um, if your identity is tied up in
a movement like feminism, that can be extremely detrimental that
kind of judgment. Um. And yeah, that can keep people
out for sure, um from Baronese fishers essay, guilt and
(15:58):
shame in the women's movement, radical ideal of action and
its meaning for feminist intellectuals quote for contemporary feminist This
tendency to psychologize issues of guilt maybe partially strong because
of our emphasis on feelings and because of the fear
we have committed unspeakable wrongs to the women we claim
as our sisters. But as participants in a radical movement,
we also need to question the rules by which we
(16:20):
make such judgments. Is guilt a patriarchal notion? Can we
develop a feminist understanding of guilt as a part of
a feminist ethic? How should we deal with the concept
of collective guilt? Are women responsible for the racism, the
class oppression, and other injustices perpetrated by our fathers or mothers?
How do we assess our current complicity and such wrongdoing?
(16:40):
Does our participation in sexist, racist, homophobic, or anti Semitic
institutions make us guilty? What is the relation between guilt
and responsibility? If we adopt a concept of guilt, do
we hold on to some notion of atonement or responsibility?
So a lot of questions, There is a lot of thought,
uh and debate around around guilt happening right now and
(17:02):
in our I guess the eighties is pretty modern. I
don't know why. Oh my gosh, the eighties so long ago,
thirty years ago, thirty years ago, so yeah, I guess
that's thirty years ago. I mean that was the late too,
And I think a lot of that also we need
to put in there about how guilt can make you react,
(17:24):
you know, And I think I've seen this in feminism
as well, like feminist guilt in this idea that either
they feel like they're cornered when they feel guilty, so
they start lashing out inappropriately to other women, or because
either what they're not doing enough or they're doing too much,
or they're not doing it right, and that's just kind
of caught up in all of that guilt that they
fell within themselves so they don't know what to do,
or even just giving up. Yeah. Yeah, I certainly feel
(17:49):
a lot of guilt around well I should have done this,
or I should go do this, or should There's just
a million things I feel like I should be doing.
But you know there's no I'm oh no, no, I'm
making excuses. Guilt tripping. Um, that is we all probably
are familiar with that. But it's weaponizing guilt to get
someone to do something that we want them to do. UM,
(18:13):
so that is just guilt. We still have to talk
about blame and shame, but first we have to pause
for a quick break for words more sponsors, and we're back.
(18:37):
Thank you sponsored. We are back, and we're going to
talk about blame. So a definition from Marion Webster is
to find fault with or censure, to hold responsible, to
place responsibility for Yeah, that seems more more simple than guilts. UM.
Relentless self blame, founded or not is a symptom of depression.
(18:57):
It's linked to another symptom over generalization. So for example,
I'm not good at X, so I must be terrible
at X y Z. I'm not good at this one
particular thing. That means me as a person, I'm bad
at everything, right, um. Scientists recently found that people with
depression have an uncoupling or lack of communication between two
key aerias of the brain when it comes to feeling
the appropriate amount of guilt. I did have so many
(19:19):
questions about appropriate amount, but the survey found the city
found the anterior temporal lobe, which plays a role in
determining socially acceptable behavior, and the sub general singulate cortex
and the adjacent septal region, which has to do with
our feelings of guilt. Yeah, these areas were uncoupled. The
communication between them only falters when it came to self blame,
(19:41):
though it worked perfectly fine when it comes to blaming
others in the context of people with depression. Interesting, So,
victim blaming, we've talked about this over and over on
the show is exactly what it sounds like, blaming the
victim instead of the perpetrator. It plays a huge role
in sexual assault and domestic violence, both of which statistically
imp women more than men. And why are we so
(20:02):
ready to blame the victim besides the fact that we
don't value women's bodies. Maybe it's health or maybe well
being in our culture. Um express point to something called
the just world bias, developed by Melvin Larner in the
nineteen sixties. We want to believe the world is fair,
that bad things don't happen to good people. That means
that we blame the victim. They must have done something
(20:23):
to bring it on themselves. Otherwise the world is a
much more frightening place where things don't always make sense,
and we could do everything right and still be victimized.
We are the mercy of forces out of our control,
and studies a shown that believing in a fair, just
world increases positive health outcomes. But if you think you've
got a bright future, you're more likely to take care
(20:44):
of yourself and less likely they have something like depression. However,
it does come to that whole God will bless me,
God willhelm me, and again having faith, having and hope
and things that it's not a bad thing, But it
definitely does come to a play when you feel like
maybe some almost deserving of something because of and God's
(21:04):
only blessing you if you're okay, right, right, right, if
you behave in a certain way. UM. Women often self
blame or victim blame themselves for the very same reasons.
The reality of what happened can be difficult to face.
In some ways, blaming yourself is easier than accepting, especially
if in the case of sexual sought it someone you know.
It can be easier, unfortunately, to think, well, I must
(21:29):
have done something wrong other than this person did this
horrible thing, this person that I know. Um. Yet another
study found that empathy is a part of why we
victim blamed to empathy, especially among men. For the male perpetrators. Yeah,
so going off what I just said, a men are
overall more likely to blame the victims. Another recent study
(21:49):
found that while self harming behaviors among boys has stayed
relatively the same over the past couple of years, it
is skyrocketing among girls. And one of the reasons for this,
according to the researchers, is that girls internalize their pain
and anger while boys externalize it. Girls turn it in
on themselves. And when considering why, the researchers had a
whole range of potential factors, the what was she wearing, attitude,
(22:13):
she was asking for it, why didn't she stop at
dress code? Staying quiet and docile, so it's not to
provoke violence, all these things putting responsibility of the actions
of others on girls and women. And in our Fear episode,
we talked about how we're sort of hardwired to analyze
bad things that happen to other people and figure out
what we shouldn't do in those circumstances so the same
thing won't happen to us. And you and I talked
(22:36):
about that with the self defense classes and what that
kind of focuses on, as well as the fact that
if you just recently saw the victim who rejected a
man then was kidnapped and murdered and all she did
was just ignore him. Actually, she didn't need to reject him.
Let me take that back. She ignored him, yeah, when
he was cat calling her, and that was enough for
(22:57):
him to justify kidnapping and murdering this woman. And again,
I think we've progressed enough that we are not completely like,
oh but what did she why didn't she? But it's
still not quite that clear. They still see people say, well,
they could have done this, or why didn't they do this?
Or do this, and again they use this as a
tale um a cautionary tale for us. Next maybe you
(23:18):
should do this instead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that
that is something I know a lot of listeners can
probably relate to you, and I certainly can. But the
amount of tips I get for saying safe in a
city as a single woman, oh my gosh, it's absurd.
It's also a pretty good tool to maintain the status quo.
The oppressed only have themselves to blame in this mindset,
(23:40):
So when we're thinking of victim blaming. We usually think
of sexual assaults, but we can also see it weaponized
against women in a myriad of ways, including the ginger
pay gap. Women are good at negotiating as they aren't
as skills. They use vocal fry. Vocal fry. I guess
I'm the vocal fry. Oh my gosh, and then people
(24:00):
turned it off. Yeah, I actually had it was a woman,
A vocal coach came in when I started this show,
and she she gave me a lot of good tips,
but a lot of them were essentially, don't do these
things that are associated with right and as. In fact,
I saw one of our friends, one of our co hosts,
(24:21):
just put it out there asking people what they don't
like about podcasts, and a couple of women said the
first thing they said was vocal fry, and I was like,
are you kidding me? Yeah, it's hard to say any email.
Maybe she didn't use the stereotypical smiley face to indicate um,
(24:42):
And then I was thinking about cheating. She didn't could
possibly go under this whole victim blaming thing as well.
In heterosexual relationships, when a man cheats, why are we
so ready to blame his female significant other? She she
didn't do enough to make him stay, she should have
left him earlier, et cetera. Ah Um. Since we believe
that women are better at relationships and we've typically done
(25:05):
a lot of the work maintaining them, the blame of
a failed relationship falls at women's feet. The mistress gets
blamed too, but not the cheating man, not as much. Right. Actually,
I just saw a thread about Cardi b and how
she's just then they were just like, I can't believe
she's apathetic, and they just called her out, and everybody
on that was like, why are you blaming her? And
(25:27):
then many were going just back and forth about why
it was her fault for staying, for knowing and all
these things. And I was just thinking about, like, it's
so hard to have that fine line of trust and
love and we know love is difficult in itself, and
you think you've got it, and she's got out a
baby with this man. This happens often, yeah, and you know,
why is it her fault? Yeah? And I also think
(25:50):
if we looked out at um daughters as well, there
there's a pressure of like, keep I can keep this
family together if I like do all of these things.
And then if your family doesn't stay together, then it
was somehow your fault, and there is the whole troupe,
and then the whole turn women against women. It is
(26:12):
always the guy just comes out smelling like roses while
the two women fight. Yes, it's the weirdest thing. I
never understood that. A two thousand six things study found
that people with higher levels of binding values, or moral
values that are foundational two groups coming and stay together
are more likely to place some sort of blame on
the victims. This often conflicts with the individualizing values, which
(26:34):
emphasizes equality for everyone. In the US, conservatives are more
likely to have more binding values, while liberals lean towards
individualizing values. In another study conducted by the same study,
authors found that language that focused on what the perpetrator
did victim blaming went down. Yes, so if you switched
in this study, they did if you switched the sentence
(26:56):
from like, say, Gene had a lot to drink and
Tom assaulted her if you said like Tom. If you
switched it so the focus that was on Tom assaulted Gene,
then people were less likely to victim blame. Right. It's
kind of like the photos when you have a a
person versus a person. So if you have, let's say,
(27:17):
um with the Black Lives Matter stuff, they would often
have like whatever arrest picture for the victim, and then
the hero picture for if it was a cop. And
please understand, I'm not here to say cops are bad.
I'm not here to say that at all. But in
those touch votes where they make sure to demonize one
versus the other, it's very very obvious of what you're
going to assume. Just find the pictures alone, exactly. Yeah,
(27:41):
And that brings us to shame. UM. And the definition
for shame is a judgment of self not living up
to an ideal. And the Miriam Webster definition is a
quote a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming,
or impropriety. The susceptibility of such emotion a condition of humilating, disgrace,
(28:02):
or disrepute, something that brings censure or reproach, also something
to be regretted, and it usually shame usually leads to
withdrawal behaviors from Reconsidering the differences between shame and guilt, quote,
shame is an unpleasant emotion implying a self evaluation of
inadequacy to meet the standards of one's ideal self. The
(28:24):
self attributed inadequacy may or may not imply a global
negative self few. Moreover, it may or may not be
perceived as stable and uncontrollable. Only if it is perceived
as uncontrollable and stable, shame will be associated with helplessness
and hopelessness. A shame people may regard themselves as either
responsible or non responsible for a fault, but in any case,
when experiencing pure shame, they are not considering responsibility issues. Guilt,
(28:48):
on the other hand, is an unpleasant emotion implying a
negative self evaluation against one's moral standards, that is, the
standards concerning those behavior's, goals, beliefs, or treats for which
one regards oneself as responsible. The evaluation is negative and
that such behaviors, goals, etcetera. Are viewed as harmful. Therefore,
guilt implies a self evaluation of responsible harmfulness, that is, wrongfulness.
(29:11):
The wrongdoing can be either actual or potential, that is,
a possible consequence of personal traits and dispositions, provided the
person views such shits as a modifiable through effort, thereby
feeling responsible for not trying to modify them. So that's
a lot. That's a lot. But basically what it was
that this this was a fascinating look right at the
(29:34):
complexity of shame and guilt. Um and it's it feels
bad to boil it down because the whole thing was
about don't boil it down. But it's pretty much shame
is there's something just wrong with you and that's why
something happened, whereas guilt is like, here's this thing that
(29:57):
I did that violates my more world principles and is
abnormal behavior for me, Like I believe that is wrong
and it is something that I have control over and
responsibility for. That's pretty much right. The difference, Um, yeah,
there's a whole lot, definitely. So shame can involve a
(30:17):
whole host of physical symptoms increased heart rate, sweat flushing,
head hanging, shoulder, hunting, withdrawing, avoiding, eye contact, nausea, disneys,
and or self loathing. And you might think to yourself
that you are a failure, that you are unlovable and
stuff like that. And it can also contribute to addiction.
It can hold you back at work and in relationships
(30:39):
that shame of I can't do this, so therefore I'm
not going to do this, so therefore I have failed.
And some studies have linked shame to increase inflammation, which
is an indicator of disease and or illness, which makes
sense because shame is tied to stress, which is tied
to all kinds of negative health outcomes. Research suggests that
men transform shame into feelings of anger or defensiveness, while
(31:01):
women are more likely to internalize it again turning it
on themselves. Blame is often a way of redirecting the
powerlessness that comes with shame. Shame has also been positively
linked to aggression and hostilities. Other studies found no link though,
so that is also still ongoing. Research is on going there,
and shame and guild is integral when it comes to addiction,
(31:24):
frequently a major factor in preventing addicts from seeking help.
Um kind of Similarly, we discussed in our Trauma mini
series how feelings of shame after a sexual assault is
a major obstacle when it comes to reporting or even
telling someone what happened. Yeah, yeah, because shame shame is
something you want to hide. Um, so it will keep
you from admitting that you need help or or just
(31:47):
even telling someone this is maybe I'm dealing with a
substance abuse issue or sexual assault because it's something you
want to hide in your right, was shamed of and
oftentimes us with adas this self medicating that is that
whole I'm going to do it myself. I want to
fix myself right because I don't want to share. I'm ashamed, right,
(32:08):
And that ties in again that's kind of the vicious
cycle of UM sexual assault and we talked about that
in our Trauma mini series. Is that a lot of
people who have gone through trauma, they are trying to
self medicate to deal with the trauma, and that in
turn can lead to also a substance abuse issue. Yeah. Um,
(32:29):
So that's what we have to say about those three
things when it gives a definition, and that is a
lot to say. But we still have some more um.
But first we have one more quick break for word
from our sponsor and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. Steady
(32:57):
out of the University of the Basque kind Tree in
Spain found that women feel more guilt compared to men.
And not only that, the researchers found men, especially in
men aged thirty three, don't feel enough guilt relative to
their actions. Yeah, that makes me chuckle to you again.
Enough guilt, but all right? Um? That does change as
they get older. Middle aged women take on the most guilt.
(33:22):
The researchers theorized women are socially conditioned to feel more guilt,
and and that isn't based on evolution or brain chemistry
or something like that. Society puts higher expectations on women,
increasing the chances of us not living up to those expectations,
and therefore our feelings of guilt are feelings of being
a failure. The study concluded. The guilt most frequently experienced
(33:45):
by women is called anxious aggressive guilt are causing some
sort of harm to another person. This could be something
as simple as saying no to someone. According to study
author its Te Sparia, the anxious aggressive kind of guilt
is more common in people who have been raised in
a more blame imposing environment and who are governed by
stricter rules about behavior in general and aggression in particular.
(34:08):
To combat all of this, she suggested a whole range
of practices to reduce the readiness to accept guilt and
women and the social forces behind them, as well as
improving men's interpersonal skills. This could also play into why
women apologize more frequently and repeatedly, not in the conversational
way of I'm sorry that happened to you, but legitimately, Oh,
(34:28):
I'm sorry you bumped into me. I'm sorry. Yeah, I
shouldn't have been in this public space. You're right, I'm
walking in behind you. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I have
a friend who apologizes all right the time, all the time,
Like you don't have to apologize for talking to me
or friends, but if you correct them, you feel guilty
(34:50):
because they feel guilty. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um, there are
a lot of ways women are conditioned to feel shame
about our das, which we've talked about right, and I
think we should also put in here when we talk
about shame. Well, this was very heteronormative, and obviously there's
a whole other level for those who are in the
l g B d q I A plus community, obviously,
(35:13):
because they're taught shame from very beginning, oftentimes by society,
oftentimes by media, oftentimes by family. And um, we haven't
talked about this enough and we know from our buy
episodes how how much of a toll mentally and physically
that it takes on those individuals and how how very
very dangerous erature is and and just to tell people
(35:37):
get over this is not who you are. You should
be ashamed. Those types of things are so so so
dangerous obviously as we see the statistics of all the
self harm abuse things that are underreported. UM. So we
just want to acknowledge that though we talk, we're talking
about a lot of heteronormative ideas in this text, that
(35:57):
we acknowledge that those for shame can be on a
whole different level for those who are especially who are intersectional,
whether it's a person of color who has bought you know,
all of those levels that there's just added layers of
what shame and guilt looks like and then trying to
shed that from your identity as well. Yeah, and and
we learn those things from such a young age. UM.
(36:23):
So it's yeah, it's very detrimental and dangerous and harmful
when it comes to UM dealing with guilt and with Shane,
there are a lot of a lot of tips out there. UM.
It really seems to be self reflective, trying to really
(36:48):
be honest with what you have control over what you
didn't impact UM and if it is something that you
is debilitating, than getting help, whether whether that's through therapy
if you can afford that, if that's an option for you,
(37:09):
or just finding someone that you trust or a support
group to kind of talk it out right. And also
understand that with guilt and shame, which also is correlated
with depression, that some of this can be chemical. Some
of this can be a mental health thing that you
need to take care of yourself. And that's okay too,
because I think I I struggle with it. When I'm
in my darkest, I I feel more shame and more guilt,
(37:31):
and it's overwhelming to be in that darkness and it's
harder to realize in that moment this is also chemical,
this is also seasonal, all of those things. So in
understanding and how to deal with that is to kind
of listen to your body as well as Yes, Cape
made sure like if you have people, people groups, if
you're using medication and that appropriately prescribed to you, do
(37:53):
that all of those things are really important as well
to not fall under that heavy, heavy, heavy burden of
guilt and shame. Yes, um, And I was I was
trying to think about why I what it is I
see and why why are we so quick to blame women,
And I think it's I think we've just been subjugated
(38:15):
two like abuse and marginalization for so long, but also
just conditioning to be nice, um and to make everyone
comfortable and happy. Um. And when that those things don't happen,
or when we are being the subjects of abuse or
or whatever, we've looked inward to find a reason why
it must be something, especially when we witness it among
(38:38):
a lot of women mate. Um. Yeah, and we've been
classified as less the men. And that's something I certainly
struggled with as a kid, because I just had this
sense of like I am less than and um, we
are to blame for their wrongdoings and for not meeting
the impossibly high standards that we place on girls and women.
And as a society, admitting that things like rape culture
(38:59):
or fal it's something that we need to to change
to work on instead of pointing to a woman's outfit choice, Um,
that requires a lot more work if we admit that
we have a problem and it's structural and huge and
we have to change it. Um. And people, as we know,
are afraid of change, especially those who are benefiting from
that already. Yes, exactly, so those are our thoughts on shame, blame, guilt.
(39:28):
Turns out there's a lot of thoughts around that kind
of stuff, and we would love to hear your thoughts listeners,
and you can email us those thoughts at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find
us on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You or
on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to
our suproducer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening
(39:48):
Stuff I've Never Told You his protection of iHeart Radios
how stuff works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio
is the diheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. H
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
I never told your protection of I heart radios how
stuff works. So before we start this one, I have
confession to make. I feel very guilty. I got my
behavior at the party. Lest nay, I do not good
(00:29):
for you. I do not. Yeah, I think I maintained
I feel shame for some of the things I was
gonna come out maybe j K J. Yeah. I actually always,
I almost always feel really guilty after I UM at
a party. Well, no matter what, I don't know. I'm
(00:50):
just like, I get in my head about if I
embarrassed myself for what were people thinking of? How it
is behaving? Um, because I am definitely viewed as a
party girl. That is something I know, and I am
that's accurate because you maintain I I am there, I
am there to party and have fun, and I Yeah,
(01:12):
if you invite me to something, it's pretty much guaranteed
I will show it right and I will probably not
be there. Yeah. Or if you're like, um, I might
watch The Winter Soldier and then I'm at your house,
but first finish the text. I could sense it. Um,
or we watch three movies instead of one? I do
(01:32):
I actually do feel bad about it because I was
I went into that. This is for our our feminist movie. Friday,
we did a Batman Returns. I really went into that thinking,
I'm going to watch this one movie we work. It
was a Monday. The next day was and I'm going
to go home and I maybe responsible. And then it's
three am and we've watched two and a half movie,
right right, So sorry about that. But we're talking about
(01:56):
guilt and shame and blame and why women are so
easily aimed and so quick to take on blame. Right
And before we get into the episode, I didn't want
to put the trigger warning here. We're briefly going to
talk about things around sexual assault, miscarriage, domestic violence, mental illness, addiction,
and self harming behaviors. We're not really going to get
too deep into any of that stuff, but if it's
(02:16):
triggering for you putting that out there, Um and yeah,
I guilt is like my best friend. I feel guilty
all the time, and I feel ashamed all the time.
Um and yeah, I feel like sometimes I get this
deep shame that when people see me, it feels like
my skin is crawling and I just want to make
myself really small and invisible. I don't want people to
(02:38):
look at me. Right, Um, I do the same thing.
I think it's natural for women, especially women with a
lot of trauma. I think in general have and and
i'd say women, I mean anybody encompassing into those who
identify as female. Um, that it just kind of becomes
a part of who you are. It's ingrained shame of
(02:59):
what you should be, the expectations of what you think
is perfect or the idea of perfection, whether it's look,
whether it's your jaw, whether it's just maintaining in society.
I think it's overall overwhelming since of I'm not meeting
these levels, so therefore I'm failing, and therefore I feel
guilty and I feel ashamed of who I am or
(03:20):
what I've done. And I think that's just a really
hardship that it's really hard to let go of, especially
if you've learned that as a child. It's just a
part of your identity and it's hard to shake for sure. Yeah,
And I think it goes hand in hand with for
people who experienced trauma, feeling like you don't want to
draw attention to yourself or I, like I said, in
(03:42):
our many series that we did. I feel like I
have a wound on my face and like everyone can
see it, like it's really obvious, and so you don't
want people to see that thing that you are ashamed
of you feel is really visible. And I, um physically
manifest this and I kind of like twist s uff
in a pretzel and I don't even realize I'm doing
(04:04):
it until someone will point out, like, what's wrong with you?
Are you? Are you having a panic attack or something?
And I don't have to unwind. Um. So I didn't
even recognize it a lot of the time. UM. And
there actually is a lot of science around the differences
in definitions between shame and guilt, which we're going to
(04:27):
talk about. But I thought that was so interesting. So
we're gonna give you the definitions, but there actually is
some disagreement on them. Um. So first we'll start with guilt.
The definition of guilt is a judgment of wrongdoing and
from the Merriam Webster, the fact of having committed a
breach of conduct, especially violating law and involving a penalty,
(04:47):
or the state of one who has committed an offense,
especially consciously. Yes. Um. And then there's also they go
on to expand there's feelings of deserving blame, especially for
imagine defenses or from us sense of inadequacy self reproach,
a feeling of deserving blame for offenses. So guilt usually
involves correctly or incorrectly perceived responsibility, like I it was
(05:11):
an abnormal action or choice that I made. I feel
guilty about that thing. Um, Yeah, and it usually leads
to actionable things to make amends. And also today I
learned that psychologist calls self punishment due to guilt the
Dabby effect Harry Potter reference. Yeah. Yes, And there are
(05:33):
a bunch of different types of guilts, right, and one
of them is survivor's guilt. And I know we've talked
about this previously, the guilt felt of surviving a traumatic
event when others did not. This might even involve believing
you did something wrong to survive. Experts positive that it
comes from an irrational belief that there's a limited amount
of goodness in the world and any good a survivor
experiences comes at the expense of someone else, and just
(05:55):
kind of on a personal level. For an adoptee, there's
a whole different level of survivor guilt as in fact,
if you um research enough, there's a lot of discussion
on the message boards and support groups about how to
cope with survivors guilt, whether it's guilt from surviving a
bad circumstance when the others didn't, guilt fulfilling like you
haven't met a certain expectation, or the filing you have
(06:16):
to earn your keep um. And there's a lot to
be said about the constant reminder from others about how
blessed someone should feel. Uh, And I think just place
not being grateful. It's not the same thing as guilt,
which is sometimes a manipulative tactic used on children. And
with that, I see this in the foster systems as well,
where there they say you should be grateful, they will
(06:37):
come to the children oftentimes be like, how lucky are you?
You've got all these things? And there's this level of
responsibility that you have to constantly show appreciation and that
if a you are questioning maybe your biological stance of
your family and trying to find them, then then you're
not being appreciative. If you're questioning and disagreeing with some
(06:57):
of the views within your family, then you're not being apprecy.
There's just this whole level of guilt as well as
the fact that if you aren't showing and showing off
being the perfect family that you have, somehow messed up
this family. And I even had guilt as being an
adopted person within a family that had biological children from
(07:17):
taking away attention quote unquote from those those biological children.
There's a whole different thing and it's something that and
when we talk about survivor's guilt, again, this is completely
different from just traumatic guilt. But it's a whole different
thing that that's a big discussion and oftentimes has to
be unpacked in therapy and in intense of therapy from
(07:38):
a specialist. And again, like I said, it's often times
seen in the foster system as well. And then when
something goes wrong and they're getting taken out of a
placement or something, they feel that they are the blame
and they are the reason that something has failed, a
placement has failed. And speaking of that, there's a different
type of guilt which is a separation guild. Yes, um,
I didn't want to say, and you know we should, God,
(08:00):
no one would like to happen to me. We could
do a whole episode on Harry Potter and these like
survivor guilt, because that was something Harry Potter would be
a mess. He is way too functional, way too functional.
But Uncle Vernon and you saw say that to him.
You should be grateful for the cupboard that we put
you into. Anyway. Yeah, that another type of guilt, separation guilt, UM,
(08:23):
and this is the belief that separating or differing from
family or friends in some way harms them, right. And
that's definitely again as I've seen in UM a lot
of foster care systems or when even when detaining children
separating families, there's a lot of traumatic issues and a
part of that is that separation guilt, whether it's from
the parent, whether it's from the kid. And there's also
the whole thing with pets. They have separation anxiety and
(08:46):
they kind of freak out, and it's that same level
two of that, are they coming back and if they
don't come back, it's my fault or if we're not together,
it's my fault. Yeah, And I mean you can also
see this in uh, like in my mom's family, everyone
is really conservative but her and just having that guilt
(09:08):
of like I don't agree with you and you feel
bad about it, even though yeah, it totally makes sense
that we have different opinions and viewpoints, but you betraying
the family exactly. Yeah yeah. Um. Then there's omnipotent responsibility guilt,
believing that one is responsible for the happiness of others.
I connect with that one, so rush. Um. Self hate guilt,
(09:30):
which is an extreme self loathing. This typically comes from
an abusive past. Then there's mommy guilt, and this is
a term that gets thrown around quite a bit when
we talk about women and guilt and yeah, and on
this show we've discussed in depth about the pressure is
placed on moms to be perfect and perfection is impossible,
(09:51):
so guilt is therefore inevitable. UM. Women are also conditioned
to be a child's primary caretaker, which means if something
happens to a child, the there feels guilty and is
probably being blamed by those around her as well. This
judgment of mothers can and often does lead to feelings
of shame, and we see this play out all the time. UM.
(10:12):
And the blame the mother trope. If if a man
becomes a serial killer, blamed the mother. If he's not happy,
blame the mother. If he can't find a job, blame
the mother. If he married somebody who's not good for
him or some blame the mother, all these things. And
then of course I got to mention Hereditary because it's
my favorite movie every uh no spoilers, but Tony Collette's
(10:32):
character Annie, Um, she touches on this in her group
counseling session where she says, I am I feel like
I am to blame or I am blames and it
has to do ultimately with something we're gonna talk about
a minute, but I'm um her genes, genetics, Hereditary, And
then Scream also got to talk about that because some
(10:53):
one of my favorite movies, that entire series is pretty
much to blame the mother trope. It's these moms fault
for literally everything in every movie. The serial Killer in
the second one even says I'm sick to death of
people thinking it's all the mother's fault, you know, as
she's trying to kill all these people, and yeah, she
(11:15):
kind of reinforces the trope. She calls it out and
then reinforces it. Um. Yeah, it's just just something we
see often. Yeah. So another aspect of this conversation is
the postpartum guilt and or assigning blame when it comes
to things like still birth and miscarriage. Experts positive this
is a coping mechanism to find meaning in a sense
(11:35):
of control in a really tragic situation, and feeling this
way in the wake of a tragedy is totally normal.
But if it persists or becomes chronically debilitating, that points
to a deeper issue. And one study found that almost
fifty of women blame their healthcare providers for their child's
death when surveyed a year later. That could mean that
they won't trust healthcare professionals moving forward. And that makes
(11:57):
a lot of sense because they need to blame some thing. Yeah,
and if it's something outwardly it does it puts It's
a lot of pressure on um, many of those who
have given bars and or have lost child for sure.
Several studies have looked into the guilt of a mother
um and the guilt she often feels that passing on
(12:17):
genet conditions to her children. The research indicates mothers feel
more guilt and face more blame for sex linked conditions
as compared to men. Screening programs for pregnant women that
identify autosomal recessive disorders are viewed as the responsibility of
women who want to get pregnant, so not doing so
(12:38):
invites guilt and blame. Yeah, and then there's white guilt, um,
And this is a case where guilt can be extremely hindering.
It can lead to inaction through fear or perhaps even
looking for an excuse not to act. And this also
means more emotional labor for people of color basically white
people asking them to make people of color may make
(12:59):
people to make them feel better, right as in fact,
in our episode on forgiveness, we had a listener talk
about it, um and send us a message and it's
absolutely correct. So there's a narrative that seems to be
continuing with this his who whole idea, especially after the
trial of the murder of both the Geane in which
the brother and the judge hugged Amber Geiger after her
sentencing um. And it was kind of that conversation of
(13:21):
all right, this is a sign of forgiveness and how
we're going to move on. But the black community felt
like this is one more scene in which a person
who was innocent and was black was murdered and they
had to turn the other cheek and forgive, and everybody
was praising this whole idea instead of saying, okay, but
this is not true justice. They got the tenure sentence,
(13:44):
she whatever, and at least she was convicted. However, this
is still not the biggest steps because this man was
sitting in his apartment minding his own business and he
got shot down, and we know things happen, whatever, But
it's this continuous verba in which there is this idea
that you need to let go, and there's this pressure
put it on the black community saying, oh, just let
(14:06):
it go. Why are you so angry? Especially black women,
They are caught up in this whole trope of you're
supposed to be forgiven. You're supposed to be forgiven, and
if you're angry, why you're not allotted that time or
allotted that emotion, to be honest and saying this is
unbelievably unforgivable, and I am angry, and I think again,
(14:28):
this is where the continuous debate lingers between all the
lines of boundaries as well as talking about forgiveness versus forgetting,
and why is it that we expect a community to
continually turn the other cheek and when it seems to
be a continued a piece of relationship for this community
in which the black people are told let it go,
but nothing is being done in the name of justice. Instead,
(14:49):
there's all these unreasonable arguments about why they should let
it go and move on. And that's not okay. And
I think that's part of the conversation that's not had
enough when we talk about blaming others, that when someone
should feel guilt and shame, that the other person should
let it go. And that's not necessarily how we should
(15:11):
be right, just just a little tied right there, just
a little tir uh that what speaking of tire rage feminism, Um,
Feminist guilt is another thing. Um. This was my very
first episode I did was about being a bad feminist
and the guilt I feel around that. Yeah, because we
hold ourselves up to a set of standards that are
(15:34):
virtually impossible to live up to all the time. Um.
And this opens us up to judgment within the community
as well. Um, if your identity is tied up in
a movement like feminism, that can be extremely detrimental that
kind of judgment. Um. And yeah, that can keep people
out for sure, um from Baronese fishers essay, guilt and
(15:58):
shame in the women's movement, radical ideal of action and
its meaning for feminist intellectuals quote for contemporary feminist This
tendency to psychologize issues of guilt maybe partially strong because
of our emphasis on feelings and because of the fear
we have committed unspeakable wrongs to the women we claim
as our sisters. But as participants in a radical movement,
we also need to question the rules by which we
(16:20):
make such judgments. Is guilt a patriarchal notion? Can we
develop a feminist understanding of guilt as a part of
a feminist ethic? How should we deal with the concept
of collective guilt? Are women responsible for the racism, the
class oppression, and other injustices perpetrated by our fathers or mothers?
How do we assess our current complicity and such wrongdoing?
(16:40):
Does our participation in sexist, racist, homophobic, or anti Semitic
institutions make us guilty? What is the relation between guilt
and responsibility? If we adopt a concept of guilt, do
we hold on to some notion of atonement or responsibility?
So a lot of questions, There is a lot of thought,
uh and debate around around guilt happening right now and
(17:02):
in our I guess the eighties is pretty modern. I
don't know why. Oh my gosh, the eighties so long ago,
thirty years ago, thirty years ago, so yeah, I guess
that's thirty years ago. I mean that was the late too,
And I think a lot of that also we need
to put in there about how guilt can make you react,
(17:24):
you know, And I think I've seen this in feminism
as well, like feminist guilt in this idea that either
they feel like they're cornered when they feel guilty, so
they start lashing out inappropriately to other women, or because
either what they're not doing enough or they're doing too much,
or they're not doing it right, and that's just kind
of caught up in all of that guilt that they
fell within themselves so they don't know what to do,
or even just giving up. Yeah. Yeah, I certainly feel
(17:49):
a lot of guilt around well I should have done this,
or I should go do this, or should There's just
a million things I feel like I should be doing.
But you know there's no I'm oh no, no, I'm
making excuses. Guilt tripping. Um, that is we all probably
are familiar with that. But it's weaponizing guilt to get
someone to do something that we want them to do. UM,
(18:13):
so that is just guilt. We still have to talk
about blame and shame, but first we have to pause
for a quick break for words more sponsors, and we're back.
(18:37):
Thank you sponsored. We are back, and we're going to
talk about blame. So a definition from Marion Webster is
to find fault with or censure, to hold responsible, to
place responsibility for Yeah, that seems more more simple than guilts. UM.
Relentless self blame, founded or not is a symptom of depression.
(18:57):
It's linked to another symptom over generalization. So for example,
I'm not good at X, so I must be terrible
at X y Z. I'm not good at this one
particular thing. That means me as a person, I'm bad
at everything, right, um. Scientists recently found that people with
depression have an uncoupling or lack of communication between two
key aerias of the brain when it comes to feeling
the appropriate amount of guilt. I did have so many
(19:19):
questions about appropriate amount, but the survey found the city
found the anterior temporal lobe, which plays a role in
determining socially acceptable behavior, and the sub general singulate cortex
and the adjacent septal region, which has to do with
our feelings of guilt. Yeah, these areas were uncoupled. The
communication between them only falters when it came to self blame,
(19:41):
though it worked perfectly fine when it comes to blaming
others in the context of people with depression. Interesting, So,
victim blaming, we've talked about this over and over on
the show is exactly what it sounds like, blaming the
victim instead of the perpetrator. It plays a huge role
in sexual assault and domestic violence, both of which statistically
imp women more than men. And why are we so
(20:02):
ready to blame the victim besides the fact that we
don't value women's bodies. Maybe it's health or maybe well
being in our culture. Um express point to something called
the just world bias, developed by Melvin Larner in the
nineteen sixties. We want to believe the world is fair,
that bad things don't happen to good people. That means
that we blame the victim. They must have done something
(20:23):
to bring it on themselves. Otherwise the world is a
much more frightening place where things don't always make sense,
and we could do everything right and still be victimized.
We are the mercy of forces out of our control,
and studies a shown that believing in a fair, just
world increases positive health outcomes. But if you think you've
got a bright future, you're more likely to take care
(20:44):
of yourself and less likely they have something like depression. However,
it does come to that whole God will bless me,
God willhelm me, and again having faith, having and hope
and things that it's not a bad thing, But it
definitely does come to a play when you feel like
maybe some almost deserving of something because of and God's
(21:04):
only blessing you if you're okay, right, right, right, if
you behave in a certain way. UM. Women often self
blame or victim blame themselves for the very same reasons.
The reality of what happened can be difficult to face.
In some ways, blaming yourself is easier than accepting, especially
if in the case of sexual sought it someone you know.
It can be easier, unfortunately, to think, well, I must
(21:29):
have done something wrong other than this person did this
horrible thing, this person that I know. Um. Yet another
study found that empathy is a part of why we
victim blamed to empathy, especially among men. For the male perpetrators. Yeah,
so going off what I just said, a men are
overall more likely to blame the victims. Another recent study
(21:49):
found that while self harming behaviors among boys has stayed
relatively the same over the past couple of years, it
is skyrocketing among girls. And one of the reasons for this,
according to the researchers, is that girls internalize their pain
and anger while boys externalize it. Girls turn it in
on themselves. And when considering why, the researchers had a
whole range of potential factors, the what was she wearing, attitude,
(22:13):
she was asking for it, why didn't she stop at
dress code? Staying quiet and docile, so it's not to
provoke violence, all these things putting responsibility of the actions
of others on girls and women. And in our Fear episode,
we talked about how we're sort of hardwired to analyze
bad things that happen to other people and figure out
what we shouldn't do in those circumstances so the same
thing won't happen to us. And you and I talked
(22:36):
about that with the self defense classes and what that
kind of focuses on, as well as the fact that
if you just recently saw the victim who rejected a
man then was kidnapped and murdered and all she did
was just ignore him. Actually, she didn't need to reject him.
Let me take that back. She ignored him, yeah, when
he was cat calling her, and that was enough for
(22:57):
him to justify kidnapping and murdering this woman. And again,
I think we've progressed enough that we are not completely like,
oh but what did she why didn't she? But it's
still not quite that clear. They still see people say, well,
they could have done this, or why didn't they do this?
Or do this, and again they use this as a
tale um a cautionary tale for us. Next maybe you
(23:18):
should do this instead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that
that is something I know a lot of listeners can
probably relate to you, and I certainly can. But the
amount of tips I get for saying safe in a
city as a single woman, oh my gosh, it's absurd.
It's also a pretty good tool to maintain the status quo.
The oppressed only have themselves to blame in this mindset,
(23:40):
So when we're thinking of victim blaming. We usually think
of sexual assaults, but we can also see it weaponized
against women in a myriad of ways, including the ginger
pay gap. Women are good at negotiating as they aren't
as skills. They use vocal fry. Vocal fry. I guess
I'm the vocal fry. Oh my gosh, and then people
(24:00):
turned it off. Yeah, I actually had it was a woman,
A vocal coach came in when I started this show,
and she she gave me a lot of good tips,
but a lot of them were essentially, don't do these
things that are associated with right and as. In fact,
I saw one of our friends, one of our co hosts,
(24:21):
just put it out there asking people what they don't
like about podcasts, and a couple of women said the
first thing they said was vocal fry, and I was like,
are you kidding me? Yeah, it's hard to say any email.
Maybe she didn't use the stereotypical smiley face to indicate um,
(24:42):
And then I was thinking about cheating. She didn't could
possibly go under this whole victim blaming thing as well.
In heterosexual relationships, when a man cheats, why are we
so ready to blame his female significant other? She she
didn't do enough to make him stay, she should have
left him earlier, et cetera. Ah Um. Since we believe
that women are better at relationships and we've typically done
(25:05):
a lot of the work maintaining them, the blame of
a failed relationship falls at women's feet. The mistress gets
blamed too, but not the cheating man, not as much. Right. Actually,
I just saw a thread about Cardi b and how
she's just then they were just like, I can't believe
she's apathetic, and they just called her out, and everybody
on that was like, why are you blaming her? And
(25:27):
then many were going just back and forth about why
it was her fault for staying, for knowing and all
these things. And I was just thinking about, like, it's
so hard to have that fine line of trust and
love and we know love is difficult in itself, and
you think you've got it, and she's got out a
baby with this man. This happens often, yeah, and you know,
why is it her fault? Yeah? And I also think
(25:50):
if we looked out at um daughters as well, there
there's a pressure of like, keep I can keep this
family together if I like do all of these things.
And then if your family doesn't stay together, then it
was somehow your fault, and there is the whole troupe,
and then the whole turn women against women. It is
(26:12):
always the guy just comes out smelling like roses while
the two women fight. Yes, it's the weirdest thing. I
never understood that. A two thousand six things study found
that people with higher levels of binding values, or moral
values that are foundational two groups coming and stay together
are more likely to place some sort of blame on
the victims. This often conflicts with the individualizing values, which
(26:34):
emphasizes equality for everyone. In the US, conservatives are more
likely to have more binding values, while liberals lean towards
individualizing values. In another study conducted by the same study,
authors found that language that focused on what the perpetrator
did victim blaming went down. Yes, so if you switched
in this study, they did if you switched the sentence
(26:56):
from like, say, Gene had a lot to drink and
Tom assaulted her if you said like Tom. If you
switched it so the focus that was on Tom assaulted Gene,
then people were less likely to victim blame. Right. It's
kind of like the photos when you have a a
person versus a person. So if you have, let's say,
(27:17):
um with the Black Lives Matter stuff, they would often
have like whatever arrest picture for the victim, and then
the hero picture for if it was a cop. And
please understand, I'm not here to say cops are bad.
I'm not here to say that at all. But in
those touch votes where they make sure to demonize one
versus the other, it's very very obvious of what you're
going to assume. Just find the pictures alone, exactly. Yeah,
(27:41):
And that brings us to shame. UM. And the definition
for shame is a judgment of self not living up
to an ideal. And the Miriam Webster definition is a
quote a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming,
or impropriety. The susceptibility of such emotion a condition of humilating, disgrace,
(28:02):
or disrepute, something that brings censure or reproach, also something
to be regretted, and it usually shame usually leads to
withdrawal behaviors from Reconsidering the differences between shame and guilt, quote,
shame is an unpleasant emotion implying a self evaluation of
inadequacy to meet the standards of one's ideal self. The
(28:24):
self attributed inadequacy may or may not imply a global
negative self few. Moreover, it may or may not be
perceived as stable and uncontrollable. Only if it is perceived
as uncontrollable and stable, shame will be associated with helplessness
and hopelessness. A shame people may regard themselves as either
responsible or non responsible for a fault, but in any case,
when experiencing pure shame, they are not considering responsibility issues. Guilt,
(28:48):
on the other hand, is an unpleasant emotion implying a
negative self evaluation against one's moral standards, that is, the
standards concerning those behavior's, goals, beliefs, or treats for which
one regards oneself as responsible. The evaluation is negative and
that such behaviors, goals, etcetera. Are viewed as harmful. Therefore,
guilt implies a self evaluation of responsible harmfulness, that is, wrongfulness.
(29:11):
The wrongdoing can be either actual or potential, that is,
a possible consequence of personal traits and dispositions, provided the
person views such shits as a modifiable through effort, thereby
feeling responsible for not trying to modify them. So that's
a lot. That's a lot. But basically what it was
that this this was a fascinating look right at the
(29:34):
complexity of shame and guilt. Um and it's it feels
bad to boil it down because the whole thing was
about don't boil it down. But it's pretty much shame
is there's something just wrong with you and that's why
something happened, whereas guilt is like, here's this thing that
(29:57):
I did that violates my more world principles and is
abnormal behavior for me, Like I believe that is wrong
and it is something that I have control over and
responsibility for. That's pretty much right. The difference, Um, yeah,
there's a whole lot, definitely. So shame can involve a
(30:17):
whole host of physical symptoms increased heart rate, sweat flushing,
head hanging, shoulder, hunting, withdrawing, avoiding, eye contact, nausea, disneys,
and or self loathing. And you might think to yourself
that you are a failure, that you are unlovable and
stuff like that. And it can also contribute to addiction.
It can hold you back at work and in relationships
(30:39):
that shame of I can't do this, so therefore I'm
not going to do this, so therefore I have failed.
And some studies have linked shame to increase inflammation, which
is an indicator of disease and or illness, which makes
sense because shame is tied to stress, which is tied
to all kinds of negative health outcomes. Research suggests that
men transform shame into feelings of anger or defensiveness, while
(31:01):
women are more likely to internalize it again turning it
on themselves. Blame is often a way of redirecting the
powerlessness that comes with shame. Shame has also been positively
linked to aggression and hostilities. Other studies found no link though,
so that is also still ongoing. Research is on going there,
and shame and guild is integral when it comes to addiction,
(31:24):
frequently a major factor in preventing addicts from seeking help.
Um kind of Similarly, we discussed in our Trauma mini
series how feelings of shame after a sexual assault is
a major obstacle when it comes to reporting or even
telling someone what happened. Yeah, yeah, because shame shame is
something you want to hide. Um, so it will keep
you from admitting that you need help or or just
(31:47):
even telling someone this is maybe I'm dealing with a
substance abuse issue or sexual assault because it's something you
want to hide in your right, was shamed of and
oftentimes us with adas this self medicating that is that
whole I'm going to do it myself. I want to
fix myself right because I don't want to share. I'm ashamed, right,
(32:08):
And that ties in again that's kind of the vicious
cycle of UM sexual assault and we talked about that
in our Trauma mini series. Is that a lot of
people who have gone through trauma, they are trying to
self medicate to deal with the trauma, and that in
turn can lead to also a substance abuse issue. Yeah. Um,
(32:29):
So that's what we have to say about those three
things when it gives a definition, and that is a
lot to say. But we still have some more um.
But first we have one more quick break for word
from our sponsor and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. Steady
(32:57):
out of the University of the Basque kind Tree in
Spain found that women feel more guilt compared to men.
And not only that, the researchers found men, especially in
men aged thirty three, don't feel enough guilt relative to
their actions. Yeah, that makes me chuckle to you again.
Enough guilt, but all right? Um? That does change as
they get older. Middle aged women take on the most guilt.
(33:22):
The researchers theorized women are socially conditioned to feel more guilt,
and and that isn't based on evolution or brain chemistry
or something like that. Society puts higher expectations on women,
increasing the chances of us not living up to those expectations,
and therefore our feelings of guilt are feelings of being
a failure. The study concluded. The guilt most frequently experienced
(33:45):
by women is called anxious aggressive guilt are causing some
sort of harm to another person. This could be something
as simple as saying no to someone. According to study
author its Te Sparia, the anxious aggressive kind of guilt
is more common in people who have been raised in
a more blame imposing environment and who are governed by
stricter rules about behavior in general and aggression in particular.
(34:08):
To combat all of this, she suggested a whole range
of practices to reduce the readiness to accept guilt and
women and the social forces behind them, as well as
improving men's interpersonal skills. This could also play into why
women apologize more frequently and repeatedly, not in the conversational
way of I'm sorry that happened to you, but legitimately, Oh,
(34:28):
I'm sorry you bumped into me. I'm sorry. Yeah, I
shouldn't have been in this public space. You're right, I'm
walking in behind you. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I have
a friend who apologizes all right the time, all the time,
Like you don't have to apologize for talking to me
or friends, but if you correct them, you feel guilty
(34:50):
because they feel guilty. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um, there are
a lot of ways women are conditioned to feel shame
about our das, which we've talked about right, and I
think we should also put in here when we talk
about shame. Well, this was very heteronormative, and obviously there's
a whole other level for those who are in the
l g B d q I A plus community, obviously,
(35:13):
because they're taught shame from very beginning, oftentimes by society,
oftentimes by media, oftentimes by family. And um, we haven't
talked about this enough and we know from our buy
episodes how how much of a toll mentally and physically
that it takes on those individuals and how how very
very dangerous erature is and and just to tell people
(35:37):
get over this is not who you are. You should
be ashamed. Those types of things are so so so
dangerous obviously as we see the statistics of all the
self harm abuse things that are underreported. UM. So we
just want to acknowledge that though we talk, we're talking
about a lot of heteronormative ideas in this text, that
(35:57):
we acknowledge that those for shame can be on a
whole different level for those who are especially who are intersectional,
whether it's a person of color who has bought you know,
all of those levels that there's just added layers of
what shame and guilt looks like and then trying to
shed that from your identity as well. Yeah, and and
we learn those things from such a young age. UM.
(36:23):
So it's yeah, it's very detrimental and dangerous and harmful
when it comes to UM dealing with guilt and with Shane,
there are a lot of a lot of tips out there. UM.
It really seems to be self reflective, trying to really
(36:48):
be honest with what you have control over what you
didn't impact UM and if it is something that you
is debilitating, than getting help, whether whether that's through therapy
if you can afford that, if that's an option for you,
(37:09):
or just finding someone that you trust or a support
group to kind of talk it out right. And also
understand that with guilt and shame, which also is correlated
with depression, that some of this can be chemical. Some
of this can be a mental health thing that you
need to take care of yourself. And that's okay too,
because I think I I struggle with it. When I'm
in my darkest, I I feel more shame and more guilt,
(37:31):
and it's overwhelming to be in that darkness and it's
harder to realize in that moment this is also chemical,
this is also seasonal, all of those things. So in
understanding and how to deal with that is to kind
of listen to your body as well as Yes, Cape
made sure like if you have people, people groups, if
you're using medication and that appropriately prescribed to you, do
(37:53):
that all of those things are really important as well
to not fall under that heavy, heavy, heavy burden of
guilt and shame. Yes, um, And I was I was
trying to think about why I what it is I
see and why why are we so quick to blame women,
And I think it's I think we've just been subjugated
(38:15):
two like abuse and marginalization for so long, but also
just conditioning to be nice, um and to make everyone
comfortable and happy. Um. And when that those things don't happen,
or when we are being the subjects of abuse or
or whatever, we've looked inward to find a reason why
it must be something, especially when we witness it among
(38:38):
a lot of women mate. Um. Yeah, and we've been
classified as less the men. And that's something I certainly
struggled with as a kid, because I just had this
sense of like I am less than and um, we
are to blame for their wrongdoings and for not meeting
the impossibly high standards that we place on girls and women.
And as a society, admitting that things like rape culture
(38:59):
or fal it's something that we need to to change
to work on instead of pointing to a woman's outfit choice, Um,
that requires a lot more work if we admit that
we have a problem and it's structural and huge and
we have to change it. Um. And people, as we know,
are afraid of change, especially those who are benefiting from
that already. Yes, exactly, so those are our thoughts on shame, blame, guilt.
(39:28):
Turns out there's a lot of thoughts around that kind
of stuff, and we would love to hear your thoughts listeners,
and you can email us those thoughts at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find
us on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You or
on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to
our suproducer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening
(39:48):
Stuff I've Never Told You his protection of iHeart Radios
how stuff works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio
is the diheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. H
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