That's two wins in tight circumstances for the All Blacks in consecutive weeks to start coach Scott Robertson's All Blacks tenure.
The 24-17 win over England at Eden Park came with the side needing to turn around a four point deficit and the game swinging the tourists' way.
Former All Black and Sky rugby commentator Justin Marshall says the All Blacks had braced themselves for a tough rematch against England.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Edb Well, it was a hell of a Test match
against England last night, with the All Blacks held on
to win twenty four seventeen.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Jamie McKenzie ticks and attus and the All Blacks when
twenty four seventeen a dramatic finished at eight in part,
but the record's safe and the All Blacks win the
series to nil, and another drama film test match between
these two sides.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Former All Black and SkyTV rugby commentator Justin Marshall called
the game and he joins me, now, good morning Justin.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah, good morning, Princesca. It's nice to be on your
show the morning after an All Black test match Eden
Park and I'm looking at the window of my hotel
and the city is quiet, but no doubt people were
out celebrating last night after a pretty dramatic game.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I'm pretty sure they were. How would you describe that
All Blacks performance?
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Well, look, obviously winning is winning, and I think I've
always been beating this drum now over the last I
don't know decade that we tend to nowadays focus so
much on Rugby World Cups. It's all about winning Rugby
World Cups. But New Zealand has formulated such an incredible
amount of history in our over one hundred years of
playing this game that we lose sight of that looking
(01:27):
too far ahead at Rugby World Cups. What we've got
to do is make sure that we maintain that incredible history.
We focus on every test match of beating every nation
that's in front of us, so you can review it.
We're again to debate it and you're going to ask
me some questions about the Test match. I know that.
But at the end of the day, the All Blacks
still managed somehow to get a win, and that's the
most important thing. And when they wake up and get
(01:48):
out of their beds this morning and go and do
their review and their recovery, they will do it in
a winning way rather than thinking about a loss that
they now have to contemplate.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Did the All Blacks have a strategic solution to deal
with England and their rush defense which shut us down
last week?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Look, I think they knew that it was coming. It's
not rocket science at Northern Hemisphere teams and to a degree,
South Africa, a Southern Hemisphere team that defends like Northern
humacre teams with umbrella rush defense. It was coming, so
I think they were prepared for that for sure. Have
we quite figured it out yet? No, I don't think so.
(02:25):
I think we're starting to work our way through it.
But at the moment, we still are getting frustrated a
little bit by it, and you could see at times
that it was causing problems with the game plan. So look,
have we actually found the answer right now? My answer
to that would be no. Is it still frustrating us
to a degree, yes it is. Is it enabling us
(02:47):
to play the way that we want to play, No,
it's not. So. Look, there is certainly some work on
what Francisco I think probably digesting this series. You know,
Scott Robertson could have gone into this and with us
the greatest respect and played some of the lesser tear
nations and sort of tried to gather some momentum and
(03:08):
probably won more comfortably. But what he has got the
answers early enough that when it comes to the crunch
times in the year, which is late August September, when
they're in South Africa for two tests and then in
the Northern Hemisphere, where you play three of the top
four teams in the world and then you all of
a sudden find out that you haven't got those answers.
(03:29):
While I think probably this was the perfect start for
him to say, Okay, we're there, we're not there yet
and we've got work to do, so it's probably been
the ideal series.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I mean, after five minutes, it was clear that we
had a game on our hands, right, I mean, both
teams came out with serious intent to play fast, entertaining
rugby and fifteen minutes later it's seven all. But then
it just sort of felt like we struggled to get
any set pieces in play. The scrum was good, but
the lineout was a bit of an issue for the
All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, which is unusual and New Zealand's lineout is usually
really fluid. I played with Steve Borthwick, who's the England
coach at Saracen's, and I can tell you his speciality
was lineouts. That's all he did. He thought slept executed
lineouts for us at Saracen So obviously he's very good
in that regard. So him, along with Murrow p Toji,
(04:19):
who is obviously world class. You know, they did their
homework on the All Blacks, and I think the All
Blacks will concede that they got probably out thought in
that regard. They got picked off quite a few teams
in there, and the All Black ball got disrupted and
that doesn't usually happen. So that's a big win to
England and to work on for the All Blacks. You're right, Look,
it was free flying, free flowing probably the first sort
(04:41):
of fifteen minutes in particular end to end stuff, attack,
counter attack, and then there's this real huge period of
combativeness where they just both went at each other. There
was a lot of contact, there's the odd turnover, and
the game went into this real physical battle. And then
again at the end of the day, end of the game,
I should say, in the last quarter, it loosened up
a little bit. So it was a it was kind
(05:03):
of a game that went through different periods in terms
of the way it was played, and the allbit had
to work their way through that. And did they win
that mental battle all the way through there? Absolutely not,
because England got ahead on the scoreboard, but then equally
they also work themselves back into the game and then
into the lead on the scoreboard and managed to hold
that lead justin.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
The ball handling errors. Is that a matter of settling
down into the game or is it a matter of
the players coming together as a team.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
I think it's a combination of both. But it is
a concern. I think, you know, handling errors are an
individual thing. You know that obviously they've got a game plan.
The game plan's never ever going to always work. Things
will get thrown in front of you from the defense
that all of a sudden areas you're supposed to be
and when you're carrying or not caring and running the decoy,
(05:54):
we'll all of a sudden become compromised. So you've got
to adjust and be instinctive. That doesn't mean that you
drop the ball or knock the ball on in contact
or get it ripped away. That's just a okay reset,
And that's I think that's probably the one concerning thing
that yes, it might not completely fit in the structure,
and yes the game plan and the rhythm's being disrupted,
but there is no real excuse at that level for
(06:16):
that caliber of player to be losing the ball. That'll
be a concern for Scott Robertson because the all Blacks
are better than that. They really pride themselves on their
handling and their ability to maintain possession, and we lost
possession way too much in that test match last night.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
From my very amateur point of view, justin I would
have said, if there was a strategy last night with
the game, it was to bring on Bode and Barrett.
I thought they'd bring him on at the fifty minute mark,
to be honest with you, and I was sitting there
saying to my partner, he should be on now, he
should be on now, and then he wasn't far off.
But didn't he make an impact?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:46):
He did? First and foremost, I say, the questions have
been asked to me. You certainly are not an amateur.
You've really analyzed the game. Well, so I'm well done
on that regard. But yeah, look, I think I mentioned
it in commentary last night with sky TV that I
said players now aren't reserved, But in the day, reserves
were players that came on when other players were injured
and they had come home because the other player couldn't continue.
(07:08):
Then all of a sudden, as professional came in, these
players were called impact players where they come in and
they influenced the game. Now, that doesn't always happen, but
the introduction last night of Boden Barret completely changed the
dynamic of the game. I think equally, it took a
little bit of pressure off some players who were struggling
a little bit, who couldn't probably see the entire field
because of the way that the England team were blitzing
(07:31):
us on defense. So all of a sudden, Damien McKenzie
was able to get into a second receiver role, drop
back a little bit into the backfield and launched a
bit of a counter attack, and Bodenbart stepped up and
took responsibility as first receiver, got a couple of really
nice cakes away and then obviously a cut two or
three scintillating line breaks. He made an impact like impact
players should and changed the dynamic and the way that
(07:54):
the game was flowing, and ultimately his influence probably won
the All Blacks of Test Match.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Finally, it's only two games, but what difference do you
see in this team under Scott Robinson?
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah, Look, I feel that there's always there's always when
you put a new team together under new management and
a new coach, And yes that the debate you know
was quite healthy last week. That yeah, that was the case,
but there was no day burns in the game in Dunedin,
you know, So there's there's that. They aren't mugs out there,
they aren't green. They are players that have played test
match rugby before, but they're playing it under total different
(08:32):
coaching structure and they're obviously getting new information coming at them,
so that that'll provide a little bit of clunkiness. You know,
historically the first Test match, second Test match to a
degree is always a little out of rhythm. But look,
if you ask me, you know, how have I seen it? Look,
I feel that there is a lot of progress to
(08:52):
be made. I would still be slightly concerned that we
are struggling a little bit against that rush defense because
that's all we're going to get coming at us. All
teams do it now because they know that it frustrates us.
So look, it's a tip because it's a mark because
we've won the series. But I would say massive work
still to do.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Justin Marshall, thanks so much for your time this morning.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Absolute pleasure anytime, and don't.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Forget the next weekend the All Blacks play Fiji, then
it's Argentina. And finally South Africa. At the end of August.
It is twenty nine past ninety. Keen to hear your
thoughts on the game. If you thought it was a
good performance, I'm a bit like Justin and win's a win.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Going to take that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Ninety two to ninety two, of course, is the text number.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudgin. Listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Edb Well, it was a hell of a Test match
against England last night, with the All Blacks held on
to win twenty four seventeen.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Jamie McKenzie ticks and attus and the All Blacks when
twenty four seventeen a dramatic finished at eight in part,
but the record's safe and the All Blacks win the
series to nil, and another drama film test match between
these two sides.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Former All Black and SkyTV rugby commentator Justin Marshall called
the game and he joins me, now, good morning Justin.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah, good morning, Princesca. It's nice to be on your
show the morning after an All Black test match Eden
Park and I'm looking at the window of my hotel
and the city is quiet, but no doubt people were
out celebrating last night after a pretty dramatic game.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I'm pretty sure they were. How would you describe that
All Blacks performance?
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Well, look, obviously winning is winning, and I think I've
always been beating this drum now over the last I
don't know decade that we tend to nowadays focus so
much on Rugby World Cups. It's all about winning Rugby
World Cups. But New Zealand has formulated such an incredible
amount of history in our over one hundred years of
playing this game that we lose sight of that looking
(01:27):
too far ahead at Rugby World Cups. What we've got
to do is make sure that we maintain that incredible history.
We focus on every test match of beating every nation
that's in front of us, so you can review it.
We're again to debate it and you're going to ask
me some questions about the Test match. I know that.
But at the end of the day, the All Blacks
still managed somehow to get a win, and that's the
most important thing. And when they wake up and get
(01:48):
out of their beds this morning and go and do
their review and their recovery, they will do it in
a winning way rather than thinking about a loss that
they now have to contemplate.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Did the All Blacks have a strategic solution to deal
with England and their rush defense which shut us down
last week?
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Look, I think they knew that it was coming. It's
not rocket science at Northern Hemisphere teams and to a degree,
South Africa, a Southern Hemisphere team that defends like Northern
humacre teams with umbrella rush defense. It was coming, so
I think they were prepared for that for sure. Have
we quite figured it out yet? No, I don't think so.
(02:25):
I think we're starting to work our way through it.
But at the moment, we still are getting frustrated a
little bit by it, and you could see at times
that it was causing problems with the game plan. So look,
have we actually found the answer right now? My answer
to that would be no. Is it still frustrating us
to a degree, yes it is. Is it enabling us
(02:47):
to play the way that we want to play, No,
it's not. So. Look, there is certainly some work on
what Francisco I think probably digesting this series. You know,
Scott Robertson could have gone into this and with us
the greatest respect and played some of the lesser tear
nations and sort of tried to gather some momentum and
(03:08):
probably won more comfortably. But what he has got the
answers early enough that when it comes to the crunch
times in the year, which is late August September, when
they're in South Africa for two tests and then in
the Northern Hemisphere, where you play three of the top
four teams in the world and then you all of
a sudden find out that you haven't got those answers.
(03:29):
While I think probably this was the perfect start for
him to say, Okay, we're there, we're not there yet
and we've got work to do, so it's probably been
the ideal series.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I mean, after five minutes, it was clear that we
had a game on our hands, right, I mean, both
teams came out with serious intent to play fast, entertaining
rugby and fifteen minutes later it's seven all. But then
it just sort of felt like we struggled to get
any set pieces in play. The scrum was good, but
the lineout was a bit of an issue for the
All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, which is unusual and New Zealand's lineout is usually
really fluid. I played with Steve Borthwick, who's the England
coach at Saracen's, and I can tell you his speciality
was lineouts. That's all he did. He thought slept executed
lineouts for us at Saracen So obviously he's very good
in that regard. So him, along with Murrow p Toji,
(04:19):
who is obviously world class. You know, they did their
homework on the All Blacks, and I think the All
Blacks will concede that they got probably out thought in
that regard. They got picked off quite a few teams
in there, and the All Black ball got disrupted and
that doesn't usually happen. So that's a big win to
England and to work on for the All Blacks. You're right, Look,
it was free flying, free flowing probably the first sort
(04:41):
of fifteen minutes in particular end to end stuff, attack,
counter attack, and then there's this real huge period of
combativeness where they just both went at each other. There
was a lot of contact, there's the odd turnover, and
the game went into this real physical battle. And then
again at the end of the day, end of the game,
I should say, in the last quarter, it loosened up
a little bit. So it was a it was kind
(05:03):
of a game that went through different periods in terms
of the way it was played, and the allbit had
to work their way through that. And did they win
that mental battle all the way through there? Absolutely not,
because England got ahead on the scoreboard, but then equally
they also work themselves back into the game and then
into the lead on the scoreboard and managed to hold
that lead justin.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
The ball handling errors. Is that a matter of settling
down into the game or is it a matter of
the players coming together as a team.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
I think it's a combination of both. But it is
a concern. I think, you know, handling errors are an
individual thing. You know that obviously they've got a game plan.
The game plan's never ever going to always work. Things
will get thrown in front of you from the defense
that all of a sudden areas you're supposed to be
and when you're carrying or not caring and running the decoy,
(05:54):
we'll all of a sudden become compromised. So you've got
to adjust and be instinctive. That doesn't mean that you
drop the ball or knock the ball on in contact
or get it ripped away. That's just a okay reset,
And that's I think that's probably the one concerning thing
that yes, it might not completely fit in the structure,
and yes the game plan and the rhythm's being disrupted,
but there is no real excuse at that level for
(06:16):
that caliber of player to be losing the ball. That'll
be a concern for Scott Robertson because the all Blacks
are better than that. They really pride themselves on their
handling and their ability to maintain possession, and we lost
possession way too much in that test match last night.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
From my very amateur point of view, justin I would
have said, if there was a strategy last night with
the game, it was to bring on Bode and Barrett.
I thought they'd bring him on at the fifty minute mark,
to be honest with you, and I was sitting there
saying to my partner, he should be on now, he
should be on now, and then he wasn't far off.
But didn't he make an impact?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:46):
He did? First and foremost, I say, the questions have
been asked to me. You certainly are not an amateur.
You've really analyzed the game. Well, so I'm well done
on that regard. But yeah, look, I think I mentioned
it in commentary last night with sky TV that I
said players now aren't reserved, But in the day, reserves
were players that came on when other players were injured
and they had come home because the other player couldn't continue.
(07:08):
Then all of a sudden, as professional came in, these
players were called impact players where they come in and
they influenced the game. Now, that doesn't always happen, but
the introduction last night of Boden Barret completely changed the
dynamic of the game. I think equally, it took a
little bit of pressure off some players who were struggling
a little bit, who couldn't probably see the entire field
because of the way that the England team were blitzing
(07:31):
us on defense. So all of a sudden, Damien McKenzie
was able to get into a second receiver role, drop
back a little bit into the backfield and launched a
bit of a counter attack, and Bodenbart stepped up and
took responsibility as first receiver, got a couple of really
nice cakes away and then obviously a cut two or
three scintillating line breaks. He made an impact like impact
players should and changed the dynamic and the way that
(07:54):
the game was flowing, and ultimately his influence probably won
the All Blacks of Test Match.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Finally, it's only two games, but what difference do you
see in this team under Scott Robinson?
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah, Look, I feel that there's always there's always when
you put a new team together under new management and
a new coach, And yes that the debate you know
was quite healthy last week. That yeah, that was the case,
but there was no day burns in the game in Dunedin,
you know, So there's there's that. They aren't mugs out there,
they aren't green. They are players that have played test
match rugby before, but they're playing it under total different
(08:32):
coaching structure and they're obviously getting new information coming at them,
so that that'll provide a little bit of clunkiness. You know,
historically the first Test match, second Test match to a
degree is always a little out of rhythm. But look,
if you ask me, you know, how have I seen it? Look,
I feel that there is a lot of progress to
(08:52):
be made. I would still be slightly concerned that we
are struggling a little bit against that rush defense because
that's all we're going to get coming at us. All
teams do it now because they know that it frustrates us.
So look, it's a tip because it's a mark because
we've won the series. But I would say massive work
still to do.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Justin Marshall, thanks so much for your time this morning.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Absolute pleasure anytime, and don't.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Forget the next weekend the All Blacks play Fiji, then
it's Argentina. And finally South Africa. At the end of August.
It is twenty nine past ninety. Keen to hear your
thoughts on the game. If you thought it was a
good performance, I'm a bit like Justin and win's a win.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Going to take that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Ninety two to ninety two, of course, is the text number.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudgin. Listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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