August 5, 2026 • 23 mins
Ruby Ryba, author of How to Stop Scrolling, shares how to spend less time on your phone
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode will be a slightly longer one part of the
series where I interview fascinating people about how they take
their days from great to awesome and any advice they
(00:24):
have for the rest of us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So today I.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Am delighted to welcome Ruby Riba to Before Breakfast. Ruby
is an expert on tech use and the author of
the book How to Stop Scrolling. Ruby, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hi, Laura, thank you so much for having me this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Thanks for having it coming on. I'm glad to have
you here. Why don't you tell our listeners a little
bit about yourself. Sure, my name's Ruby Riba.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I'm a screen time strategist, so I recently wrote the
book How to Stop Scrolling. My mission is for people
to be in charge of their phone use. You know,
I can't tell anyone how they should use their phones.
I don't know you, but if you your life is
not totally aligned with how you're using your phone, that's
where I come in and I can help you through
(01:06):
design and through some reassuring encouragement that we've all been
where you might be right now exactly?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
And how does one get into this line of work?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I would say curiosity. Curiosity got me here. I was
curious about it just for my own sake and for
my own family. Like you, I've always been really interested
in productivity, and I think intentionality comes hand in hand
with productivity, because if you're being very productive at something
completely unnecessary or relevant to you, that's not really helpful,
is it. And then as I started having kids, I
(01:40):
just it became more and more high stakes. You know,
how do we interact with technology in a meaningful way
that is aligned with our values? So I started thinking,
you know, since technology is designed to draw us in,
I should be able to also counter design on my side,
a way to interact with it the way I want to.
And that's sort of where my personal research started. And
(02:03):
the more I talked about it with other people, because
whenever I'm talking to someone, I'm telling them what I'm
thinking about right now, what I'm curious about and learning about,
the more people said, oh wow, like can you send
some of this to me? Or like started asking me
questions on how they should navigate their things.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
And I started realizing that this is something that.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Could be of service to other people, and that's how
I decided to turn it into a book. But it's
really been something I enjoy and I'm very passionate about it.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Absolutely. Well, you have three pillars of scrolling less. I
wonder if you could run through those with us.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, of course.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
So in my research and with coaching people, I found
that behavior change that sticks needs these three pillars. So
one is design over willpower. So what I mean by
that is when you are in a situation that you
wish were different, instead of kicking yourself and wishing that
you could grit through it, you want to design the
(02:54):
situation to be better next time. So an example of
that that we could probably all relate to is, let's
say you're trying to eat healthier and you're meeting a
friend for breakfast, and you're telling yourself, don't eat the
chocolate croissant, don't eat the chocolate cissant, don't order it,
don't order it.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
That's using willpower.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Or you could say, hey, could we meet at the
smoothie place instead? Then you don't have to use willpower.
You've designed yourself what you want, So design over willpower
when it comes to your phone might look like if
you notice that you're scrolling a lot before bed, maybe
you don't plug your phone in at night next to
your bedside table.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Or if you notice that.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You're getting a lot of notifications when you're trying to write,
you turn the notifications off or you you move the
phone away. So design usually exists in two realms, the
physical environment and phone settings. So that's my first pillar
design over willpower. The second pillar is to not leave
a vacuum. So when you remove the phone, what will
you place instead? So if you used to charge your
(03:51):
phone on your bedside table and it's not there, now,
do you just have like a blank bedside table and
do you stare at the ceiling at night?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I mean if you do, you're probably going to be
back on your phone tomorrow night, So you need to
think about what you'd want to insert instead. And then finally,
the last pillar is to be kind to yourself. So
my little slogan is that scrolling is a signal, not
a stepback. So when you find yourself scrolling, that is
an indicator that you need to think about again at
(04:19):
the design level. And that's why these are also interconnected.
How can I design this to be different next time,
or maybe it's okay. Like sometimes if I'm traveling, if
I'm in a hotel room and my phone is in
a different place than usual, i might notice that I'm
on my phone more or something, and maybe I'm only
going to be here for another couple of days, so
it's really not a big deal and I'm not going to.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Overhaul the design of my hotel room, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
And so thinking about that and reminding yourself that it's
not all about willpower can be really powerful.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So absolutely, so let's talk a little bit about the
practicalities of sort of ways to change the design. As
we're you know, designing for no use it our phones
less but not relying on willpower. One of the times
that I think people notice they have these certain on ramps,
there are certain cues that they always pick up their
(05:09):
phone and start scrolling. What are some ways we can
design to change that?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
So I think the first the first thing is just awareness.
So when you start to notice some of these on ramps,
you're going to be less likely to follow them. So
when someone else goes on their phone at a dinner,
you might notice your hand just starts moving towards your
pocket to get your phone out. When you notice that,
you can get rid of it. And then when it
comes to.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I call it like your drug of choice app.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
So a lot of people have a drug of choice app,
like probably know which one it is while you're listening
to this show. And so with that, with design, you
can use distraction blockers. You can there are many apps
that you can download that will block it. You could
use the brick, you could just remove it from your
home screen. There's lots of different ways. So I guess
it really depends on the on ramp, but I do
(06:00):
think that noticing it is the first step.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And what about proximity, I mean you said often it's
because the phone is right there that is very easy
to pick up. What are some ways that we can
kind of get some of the functionality of the phone
but keep keep it at a kind of arms length.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, So I believe in something called drop zones. So
there are two important drop zones in your life that
will change your life. So the first is where you
charge your phone at night, which we've spoken about a bit.
And the reason this is so powerful is because with
this one action, you are actually changing your life in
two times of your day at night and also when
you wake up in the morning. Now, where you place
(06:35):
your phone, I've told you not to place it on
your bedside table, but where you decide to place it
is also going to q when your phone enters the
scene in the morning. So if you put your phone
in the bathroom and as soon as you wake up,
you go to the bathroom, then like congratulations, ten seconds
into your morning, you're on your phone. Right, So you
want to think about where you want it to enter
the scene and then.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Put it there.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
So that's the first drop zone should think about. And
the second drop zone is and you get home. So
people usually have a place to put their keys and
their shoes, but not their phone, And so if there's
no home for your phone, it's just going.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
To follow you around the house.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
So I like to keep it in a drop zone,
and I have one on both floors in my home.
And then I keep my ringer on and I only
keep important notifications on. So that means that even if
my phone is not right next to me, I will
hear it ding. And of course nothing is perfect. Sometimes
I miss calls, sometimes I miss texts, but I'm okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Because you're gonna have.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You're either going to be a little bit too plugged
in or a little bit not plugged in enough, and
so you kind of have to choose which one you're
more willing to take on.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Sounds good, All right, Well we're going to take a
quick ad break and I'll be back with more from
Ruby Riba. Well, I am back talking with Ruby Riba,
who's the author of How to Stop Scrolling. So you
mentioned I mean one of the reasons people have their
(08:01):
phones on them is their phones are very functional. I
mean not just for reaching people, which their obvious purpose,
but things like tracking my steps right or reading if
I have a bit of time, Like the phone's always
on there, you can read the New York Times, you
can read a new book, listening to music. Are there
you talk about dedicated devices and way of sort of
breaking up some of these functionalities. I wonder if you
(08:22):
can talk about that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yes, So, our phone has so many abilities, as you mentioned,
which is wonderful and it's really useful, especially for those
one off times where you like need the compass or something.
We don't need to be carrying a compass around with us,
but wow, our phone can be a compass for us.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
But when you notice that you're.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Continuously reaching for the phone for the same thing, then
that's a cue for me that maybe you should have
a dedicated device. And so for me, I use timers
a lot, both like for my kids like TV time
or cooking, or even just for myself, like I hate cleaning,
so I'll like I'll be like, okay, just clean for
five minutes, and I put a five minute timer on.
(08:59):
And so I have a few timers around the house.
My kids know how to use them, and that really
helps because now I'm removing the on ramp of the phone.
And I also think that you get to personalize your
life that way. You get to decorate your home with
artifacts of who you are. You know, so if you
listen to a lot of music and you have a
record player. My one of my best friends, her family
(09:21):
has a record player, and it's a family routine now
to pick out these records. And you'll also find that
a lot of these things when you get the dedicated
device a little more tactile. You know, whether it's the
timer or the record, it's more tactile, and so you
can really fully enjoy it more so anything that you
yeah you use a lot on your phone. There's a
dedicated device for that. And we don't need one hundred
(09:42):
dedicated devices, but two or three might really change how
many times you pick up your phone.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What would you recommend for reading?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
For reading, I mean, I think variety is key, Like
you want to have different things accessible for you for
different situations.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
So I use a Kindle. I also so use paper books.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
The Kindle's great, especially if you, you know, sleep with
a partner. I can still read the Kindle when my
husband's sleeping. It's useful for travel. I use the Libby app,
which I love, where you can borrow kindle and audiobooks
from your local library. And yeah, actually I recently started
reading because I've never read fully The Count of Monte Cristo,
(10:25):
and it's my husband's favorite book.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And I was like, okay, I got to read this.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I feel like it's like a very dramatic sitcom right now,
side note, but anyway, I was.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Reading hilarious that it's his favorite book.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
But okay, yeah, now you know something about my husband
favorite book. And I'm going to learn something about my
husband too while reading this, Like I know the general
you are, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
You are you are you're going to learn something about him?
But anyway, go on.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Anyway with stories.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
For me, I often prefer a paper book because I
like to know how far along in the story I am.
It just helps me like understand the shape of the
story more. And so yeah, I picked it up at
the library yesterday. God, I have a long way to ghost.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
You have a long way to go. It's a thick
one for sure. Well, speaking of reading and things like that,
I mean, you talk about replacing screen time with something else,
and I love the question of the way you put
it in your book of what would you do with
an extra ten hours a week? Because often, you know,
I come into this and I ask people this somewhat
(11:21):
silly question of like what would you do with an
extra hour? Right? And people are like, oh, all the
amazing things I do, and here you're like ten hours.
I'm guessing many, even very pusy people are on their
phones doing things that are not a top priority for
ten hours a week. I mean, is that where you're
getting that question from?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Yes, I mean, on average, the average American uses their
phone for more than thirty seven and a half hours
a week, so almost a full time job.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So yeah, I love the exercise of what would you do.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I'm gifting you ten hours, and then when you think
about it, you can actually gift that to yourself pretty
easily because when you look at your screen time, I
guarantee you almost all the listeners are on their phone
for more than ten hours a week. And I mean,
of course, some of it is things we need to do.
I pay for parking with my phone, I respond to
emails with my phone, I pay.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Bills, whatever.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
But if you're like I never have time to stretch,
It's like, Okay, if stretching picks five minutes and you're
on your phone for.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Thirty hours a week, I feel like there's time for that.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah. Well, I think your quote is the time is there.
It's the energy and intention that's missing, which is which
is a different matter, right, Like, I mean, time and
energy and intention are related, but they are not the
same things.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yes, very true, and they work beautifully together. But we
need all three.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So how can we make hobbies and leisure as attractive
as what are in effect our electronic hobbies on our phone?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
So first, I think we talked a little bit about
proximity earlier. So just like we want to increase the proximity,
get our phones away from us. We want we want
the things that we want to do closer to us.
So if you want to be stretching, maybe you put
a phone roller next to your desk at home so
that you can be doing those things. You want to
surround yourself with the things that you want to be
(13:03):
doing instead of using your phone. And I think the
other really important thing is to make sure that you
have variety. I think that So when I asked that
question to someone I was coaching months ago, I remember
she was like, I want to learn more about the
electoral College.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And I was like, that's great, but like that's kind of.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Like having your favorite book be The Count of Monte Cristo.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
By the way, exactly, yeah, nerd alert no. So I
was like, that's great, but like maybe it's just me.
But if I'm like it's an end of a long
day and my choices are scroll through Instagram or like
learn about the electoral College, I'm pretty sure I'm going
to scroll. So you you know, we are nuanced, layered people,
and so you want to create all those different things.
(13:44):
So actually, one thing that I've started getting into because
my daughter's into it is bracelet making, Like she was like, mom,
can you help me with this bracelet? And now sometimes
when we're like when I'm talking to my husband and night,
I'm just like, oh, like, let me just make one
more bracelet. But that's like that's something that literally a
six year old can do, you know. And so you
want to meet yourself at all of your levels. What
does the six year old you want to do? Or
(14:05):
sometimes maybe you want like a tabloid or a trashy
magazine Like that's fine too, you know. And so to
make sure that we're not just curating something for this
like idealized, imaginary, higher moral self and looking at things
for our whole self and then to make that really
accessible and I think, sorry, So.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Think about things that your very low energy self.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Can do, yes, and matching those things, you know, thinking
about your energy levels throughout the day. What do you
like doing in the morning, in the afternoon, at night,
what about a work break, what about something social? Think
about like all your different selves and also just taking
that time to think about what those things are.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
And I imagine there's a time element here too, because
of one of the attractive things about a phone is
it can fill thirty seconds, it can fill three hours,
like it will do either of those if you ask
it too. Yes, and a lot of other things do
not equally fill thirty seconds or three hours. So how
can we sort of design our hobbies to fit that
to solve that problem.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, So I used to have a menu for myself
where I said, Okay, if I had one minute, I
can do box breathing. If I have five minutes, I
can like stretch. And so you can make menus for
yourself of what would I do with one five thirty minutes,
sixty minutes, Like I love going to yoga classes, but
I'm going to need more than an hour for that,
And so you're going to be setting yourself up for
failure if you're not taking the time.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Comes straight into consideration. Great question.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And then one practical tip you gave people to consider
about having little space in your life where you are
just not on your phone. I think bathroom breaks that
a challenge you're giving to people.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I think, so I just I feel like it's not necessary.
And I also, I mean people talk about how they
have their best ideas in the shower, you know, And
I think we're losing a lot of that meditative time
where we're kind of zoning out and we have great ideas.
So you know, if everyone gets off their phones while
they're going to the bathroom, I bet you we're just
gonna humanity.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
We'll have so many more great ideas. I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Or spend less time in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Where's the most time in the bathroom? Yeah, it does
not take that long for sure. For sure.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
All right, Well, we're going to take one more quick
ad break and then i'll be back with more from
Ruby Riba. Well, I am back talking with Ruby Riba,
who is the author of How to Stop Scrolling. So
we've been talking a little bit about your schedule already,
but I want to pivot a bit more to how
(16:24):
you structure your time because this podcast is all about
time management. Do you have any sort of morning routine.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, I would say that my kids keep my schedule
pretty rigid. So I wake up at six thirty, thankfully
before they do. I make their breakfast and lunches, I
get them ready, I get them out the door, and
then it's kind of like my morning finally begins at
that point.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I do still have a.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Baby at home, but I bring her down to the
gym with me, and she has a little jumper and
she's jumping in her jumper while I do my workout.
We spend a little more time together and then I
pass her off to ro pair and I start my
work day.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
And what do you tend to do at the beginning
of your work day? How do you structure all that?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
So I usually spend about two hours. If I don't
have meetings, I get out of the house, so I
go to a local coffee shop or a library, and
I spend two hours there taking care of emails, working
that sort of thing. And then as the day goes on,
I shift from book like author mom to author to mom.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Basically as the day goes on, it like creeps in
more and more.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And how do you keep yourself focused while you are writing?
I mean, this is this is always an interesting question
to me because some writing is like you have all
your stuff and you're just writing, and other times you're
engaging with other things. There are things in your email,
there are things online, your studies you're looking up. I mean,
sort of, how do you structure your work to focus
when you need to and not when you.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Don't it's so hard. I feel like I will have
a different answer for you every week.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
But I think that I use a lot of lists
and that helps me stay focused because then I have
an objective, you know, whether it's research or whatever. And
then if I'm feeling particularly unmotivated. I mentioned timers earlier,
I just put on a timer for twenty five minutes.
That always helps me, or I start keeping track. I
also like the stopwatch method where I see how long
(18:13):
I can go, and if I'm just working on writing,
for example, i might say, Okay, I want to get
like ten hours of writing done this week. So then
on Monday, I really want to get done more than
two hours because I feel like I'm ahead, I'm more
than average. I'm like, maybe i'll finish it before Thursday.
So just setting small goals for myself like that, and
they might be time based or they might be objective based.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
That really helps.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
And you mentioned you keep a lot of lists. I'm
curious if there are other interesting lists in your life
that you make use of.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Oh, I have so many lists. I have like my
mom to do list. I have my Ruby to do list.
Because I identify as a person outside of a mother, I
have my author to do list.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, I mean lots of to do lists.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Lots of ideas, date night lists, places we want to
go as a family in Europe or anywhere else, so
many lists. I have lots of notebooks with lists that
I've forgotten about.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, we have a lot of little notebooks around here too,
notebooks for my good ideas. And I now have probably
more notebooks than I have good ideas.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So it is what it is.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So I always ask my guests, what is something you
have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
So I am very lucky in that I have a
lot of amazing girlfriends, most of them are not local,
and so thanks to the voice note, I feel like
I get to listen to my favorite podcast every day
because I'm listening to them talk to me all day.
But last week I booked myself a trip to San
Francisco to visit one of my best friends in the fall.
So that definitely took that day to awesome.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
That is amazing. But let's go to this voice note thing. Yes,
sure so, because I've heard this tip from a lot
of people who want to stay in touch with friends,
how practically does that work? In your life, like when
are you recording your notes? When are you listening to theirs?
Does it go back and forth? You cross notes? Like
how do you keep the narrative going here?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Yes, I mean I am no expert, but I use
voice notes while I'm driving, so it's very efficient for me.
But one of my best friends did ask me. She
was like, are you an angry person? Because sometimes when
I'm driving, I'm like, what is this guy doing? Oh
my god, he's so stupid, and then I go right
back into So I realized that I might have some
road rage while doing these voice notes, but I primarily
(20:21):
do them while driving, and it works for us, and.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Then you listen to them as well while driving.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
I listen to them while driving also, so that means
that if I'm not driving for a while, I might
not listen to your voice note for like a week,
and they still are friends with me.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So I guess it works.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And is the etiquette that you go back and forth
or do notes stack up?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Sometimes they stack up, but I think with one of
my close friends we go back and forth, and with
the other one they just stack shell. She doesn't care,
She's like, I have stuff to tell you. I'm going
to keep sending you voice notes and it's on you
to catch up.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
And I have to do that. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I love it. So what's something you are looking forward to?
You obviously mentioned your trip with your girlfriends. I'm curious
if there's anything else in your life currently that you
are looking forward to.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I am also hopping on a plane on Saturday. I'm
bringing my three year old and my six year old
to Paris in London with my husband, So that's going
to be a lot of fun. And then when we
get back, my three year old son insisted on starting
hockey camp and I think that's just going to be
kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
So I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Got to be adorable. Can he ice?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
No, he cannot, so I don't know why he asked
for that. His options were gymnastics, swimming, and hockey. He's
done gymnastics and swimming, and he just insisted on hockey.
So that reminds me I need to pick up some
equipment for him before we we traveled here.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That is going to be so fun to watch. I'm
enjoying the picture right now. Yes, I'm even thinking. So Ribby,
where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (21:40):
So how to Stop Scrolling dot com. It's just the
title of my book, How to Stop Scrolling. On there,
you can subscribe to my weekly newsletter, The Scroll Shift,
where I give you a simple, actionable tip every Wednesday,
along with a story, a true story. You can also
preview my book there and download some resources, and of
course purchase.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
My book Wonderful Well. Thank you so much Riby for
joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you
have feedback on this or any other episode, you can
always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
In the meantime, this is Laura, Thanks for listening, and
here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for
(22:25):
listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts
from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(22:48):
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode will be a slightly longer one part of the
series where I interview fascinating people about how they take
their days from great to awesome and any advice they
(00:24):
have for the rest of us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So today I.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Am delighted to welcome Ruby Riba to Before Breakfast. Ruby
is an expert on tech use and the author of
the book How to Stop Scrolling. Ruby, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hi, Laura, thank you so much for having me this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Thanks for having it coming on. I'm glad to have
you here. Why don't you tell our listeners a little
bit about yourself. Sure, my name's Ruby Riba.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I'm a screen time strategist, so I recently wrote the
book How to Stop Scrolling. My mission is for people
to be in charge of their phone use. You know,
I can't tell anyone how they should use their phones.
I don't know you, but if you your life is
not totally aligned with how you're using your phone, that's
where I come in and I can help you through
(01:06):
design and through some reassuring encouragement that we've all been
where you might be right now exactly?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
And how does one get into this line of work?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I would say curiosity. Curiosity got me here. I was
curious about it just for my own sake and for
my own family. Like you, I've always been really interested
in productivity, and I think intentionality comes hand in hand
with productivity, because if you're being very productive at something
completely unnecessary or relevant to you, that's not really helpful,
is it. And then as I started having kids, I
(01:40):
just it became more and more high stakes. You know,
how do we interact with technology in a meaningful way
that is aligned with our values? So I started thinking,
you know, since technology is designed to draw us in,
I should be able to also counter design on my side,
a way to interact with it the way I want to.
And that's sort of where my personal research started. And
(02:03):
the more I talked about it with other people, because
whenever I'm talking to someone, I'm telling them what I'm
thinking about right now, what I'm curious about and learning about,
the more people said, oh wow, like can you send
some of this to me? Or like started asking me
questions on how they should navigate their things.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
And I started realizing that this is something that.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Could be of service to other people, and that's how
I decided to turn it into a book. But it's
really been something I enjoy and I'm very passionate about it.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Absolutely. Well, you have three pillars of scrolling less. I
wonder if you could run through those with us.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, of course.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
So in my research and with coaching people, I found
that behavior change that sticks needs these three pillars. So
one is design over willpower. So what I mean by
that is when you are in a situation that you
wish were different, instead of kicking yourself and wishing that
you could grit through it, you want to design the
(02:54):
situation to be better next time. So an example of
that that we could probably all relate to is, let's
say you're trying to eat healthier and you're meeting a
friend for breakfast, and you're telling yourself, don't eat the
chocolate croissant, don't eat the chocolate cissant, don't order it,
don't order it.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
That's using willpower.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Or you could say, hey, could we meet at the
smoothie place instead? Then you don't have to use willpower.
You've designed yourself what you want, So design over willpower
when it comes to your phone might look like if
you notice that you're scrolling a lot before bed, maybe
you don't plug your phone in at night next to
your bedside table.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Or if you notice that.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You're getting a lot of notifications when you're trying to write,
you turn the notifications off or you you move the
phone away. So design usually exists in two realms, the
physical environment and phone settings. So that's my first pillar
design over willpower. The second pillar is to not leave
a vacuum. So when you remove the phone, what will
you place instead? So if you used to charge your
(03:51):
phone on your bedside table and it's not there, now,
do you just have like a blank bedside table and
do you stare at the ceiling at night?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I mean if you do, you're probably going to be
back on your phone tomorrow night, So you need to
think about what you'd want to insert instead. And then finally,
the last pillar is to be kind to yourself. So
my little slogan is that scrolling is a signal, not
a stepback. So when you find yourself scrolling, that is
an indicator that you need to think about again at
(04:19):
the design level. And that's why these are also interconnected.
How can I design this to be different next time,
or maybe it's okay. Like sometimes if I'm traveling, if
I'm in a hotel room and my phone is in
a different place than usual, i might notice that I'm
on my phone more or something, and maybe I'm only
going to be here for another couple of days, so
it's really not a big deal and I'm not going to.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Overhaul the design of my hotel room, you know.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
And so thinking about that and reminding yourself that it's
not all about willpower can be really powerful.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So absolutely, so let's talk a little bit about the
practicalities of sort of ways to change the design. As
we're you know, designing for no use it our phones
less but not relying on willpower. One of the times
that I think people notice they have these certain on ramps,
there are certain cues that they always pick up their
(05:09):
phone and start scrolling. What are some ways we can
design to change that?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
So I think the first the first thing is just awareness.
So when you start to notice some of these on ramps,
you're going to be less likely to follow them. So
when someone else goes on their phone at a dinner,
you might notice your hand just starts moving towards your
pocket to get your phone out. When you notice that,
you can get rid of it. And then when it
comes to.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I call it like your drug of choice app.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
So a lot of people have a drug of choice app,
like probably know which one it is while you're listening
to this show. And so with that, with design, you
can use distraction blockers. You can there are many apps
that you can download that will block it. You could
use the brick, you could just remove it from your
home screen. There's lots of different ways. So I guess
it really depends on the on ramp, but I do
(06:00):
think that noticing it is the first step.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And what about proximity, I mean you said often it's
because the phone is right there that is very easy
to pick up. What are some ways that we can
kind of get some of the functionality of the phone
but keep keep it at a kind of arms length.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, So I believe in something called drop zones. So
there are two important drop zones in your life that
will change your life. So the first is where you
charge your phone at night, which we've spoken about a bit.
And the reason this is so powerful is because with
this one action, you are actually changing your life in
two times of your day at night and also when
you wake up in the morning. Now, where you place
(06:35):
your phone, I've told you not to place it on
your bedside table, but where you decide to place it
is also going to q when your phone enters the
scene in the morning. So if you put your phone
in the bathroom and as soon as you wake up,
you go to the bathroom, then like congratulations, ten seconds
into your morning, you're on your phone. Right, So you
want to think about where you want it to enter
the scene and then.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Put it there.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
So that's the first drop zone should think about. And
the second drop zone is and you get home. So
people usually have a place to put their keys and
their shoes, but not their phone, And so if there's
no home for your phone, it's just going.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
To follow you around the house.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
So I like to keep it in a drop zone,
and I have one on both floors in my home.
And then I keep my ringer on and I only
keep important notifications on. So that means that even if
my phone is not right next to me, I will
hear it ding. And of course nothing is perfect. Sometimes
I miss calls, sometimes I miss texts, but I'm okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Because you're gonna have.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You're either going to be a little bit too plugged
in or a little bit not plugged in enough, and
so you kind of have to choose which one you're
more willing to take on.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Sounds good, All right, Well we're going to take a
quick ad break and I'll be back with more from
Ruby Riba. Well, I am back talking with Ruby Riba,
who's the author of How to Stop Scrolling. So you
mentioned I mean one of the reasons people have their
(08:01):
phones on them is their phones are very functional. I
mean not just for reaching people, which their obvious purpose,
but things like tracking my steps right or reading if
I have a bit of time, Like the phone's always
on there, you can read the New York Times, you
can read a new book, listening to music. Are there
you talk about dedicated devices and way of sort of
breaking up some of these functionalities. I wonder if you
(08:22):
can talk about that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yes, So, our phone has so many abilities, as you mentioned,
which is wonderful and it's really useful, especially for those
one off times where you like need the compass or something.
We don't need to be carrying a compass around with us,
but wow, our phone can be a compass for us.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
But when you notice that you're.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Continuously reaching for the phone for the same thing, then
that's a cue for me that maybe you should have
a dedicated device. And so for me, I use timers
a lot, both like for my kids like TV time
or cooking, or even just for myself, like I hate cleaning,
so I'll like I'll be like, okay, just clean for
five minutes, and I put a five minute timer on.
(08:59):
And so I have a few timers around the house.
My kids know how to use them, and that really
helps because now I'm removing the on ramp of the phone.
And I also think that you get to personalize your
life that way. You get to decorate your home with
artifacts of who you are. You know, so if you
listen to a lot of music and you have a
record player. My one of my best friends, her family
(09:21):
has a record player, and it's a family routine now
to pick out these records. And you'll also find that
a lot of these things when you get the dedicated
device a little more tactile. You know, whether it's the
timer or the record, it's more tactile, and so you
can really fully enjoy it more so anything that you
yeah you use a lot on your phone. There's a
dedicated device for that. And we don't need one hundred
(09:42):
dedicated devices, but two or three might really change how
many times you pick up your phone.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What would you recommend for reading?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
For reading, I mean, I think variety is key, Like
you want to have different things accessible for you for
different situations.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
So I use a Kindle. I also so use paper books.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
The Kindle's great, especially if you, you know, sleep with
a partner. I can still read the Kindle when my
husband's sleeping. It's useful for travel. I use the Libby app,
which I love, where you can borrow kindle and audiobooks
from your local library. And yeah, actually I recently started
reading because I've never read fully The Count of Monte Cristo,
(10:25):
and it's my husband's favorite book.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And I was like, okay, I got to read this.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I feel like it's like a very dramatic sitcom right now,
side note, but anyway, I was.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Reading hilarious that it's his favorite book.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
But okay, yeah, now you know something about my husband
favorite book. And I'm going to learn something about my
husband too while reading this, Like I know the general
you are, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
You are you are you're going to learn something about him?
But anyway, go on.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Anyway with stories.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
For me, I often prefer a paper book because I
like to know how far along in the story I am.
It just helps me like understand the shape of the
story more. And so yeah, I picked it up at
the library yesterday. God, I have a long way to ghost.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
You have a long way to go. It's a thick
one for sure. Well, speaking of reading and things like that,
I mean, you talk about replacing screen time with something else,
and I love the question of the way you put
it in your book of what would you do with
an extra ten hours a week? Because often, you know,
I come into this and I ask people this somewhat
(11:21):
silly question of like what would you do with an
extra hour? Right? And people are like, oh, all the
amazing things I do, and here you're like ten hours.
I'm guessing many, even very pusy people are on their
phones doing things that are not a top priority for
ten hours a week. I mean, is that where you're
getting that question from?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Yes, I mean, on average, the average American uses their
phone for more than thirty seven and a half hours
a week, so almost a full time job.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So yeah, I love the exercise of what would you do.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I'm gifting you ten hours, and then when you think
about it, you can actually gift that to yourself pretty
easily because when you look at your screen time, I
guarantee you almost all the listeners are on their phone
for more than ten hours a week. And I mean,
of course, some of it is things we need to do.
I pay for parking with my phone, I respond to
emails with my phone, I pay.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Bills, whatever.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
But if you're like I never have time to stretch,
It's like, Okay, if stretching picks five minutes and you're
on your phone for.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Thirty hours a week, I feel like there's time for that.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah. Well, I think your quote is the time is there.
It's the energy and intention that's missing, which is which
is a different matter, right, Like, I mean, time and
energy and intention are related, but they are not the
same things.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yes, very true, and they work beautifully together. But we
need all three.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So how can we make hobbies and leisure as attractive
as what are in effect our electronic hobbies on our phone?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
So first, I think we talked a little bit about
proximity earlier. So just like we want to increase the proximity,
get our phones away from us. We want we want
the things that we want to do closer to us.
So if you want to be stretching, maybe you put
a phone roller next to your desk at home so
that you can be doing those things. You want to
surround yourself with the things that you want to be
(13:03):
doing instead of using your phone. And I think the
other really important thing is to make sure that you
have variety. I think that So when I asked that
question to someone I was coaching months ago, I remember
she was like, I want to learn more about the
electoral College.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And I was like, that's great, but like that's kind of.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Like having your favorite book be The Count of Monte Cristo.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
By the way, exactly, yeah, nerd alert no. So I
was like, that's great, but like maybe it's just me.
But if I'm like it's an end of a long
day and my choices are scroll through Instagram or like
learn about the electoral College, I'm pretty sure I'm going
to scroll. So you you know, we are nuanced, layered people,
and so you want to create all those different things.
(13:44):
So actually, one thing that I've started getting into because
my daughter's into it is bracelet making, Like she was like, mom,
can you help me with this bracelet? And now sometimes
when we're like when I'm talking to my husband and night,
I'm just like, oh, like, let me just make one
more bracelet. But that's like that's something that literally a
six year old can do, you know. And so you
want to meet yourself at all of your levels. What
does the six year old you want to do? Or
(14:05):
sometimes maybe you want like a tabloid or a trashy
magazine Like that's fine too, you know. And so to
make sure that we're not just curating something for this
like idealized, imaginary, higher moral self and looking at things
for our whole self and then to make that really
accessible and I think, sorry, So.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Think about things that your very low energy self.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Can do, yes, and matching those things, you know, thinking
about your energy levels throughout the day. What do you
like doing in the morning, in the afternoon, at night,
what about a work break, what about something social? Think
about like all your different selves and also just taking
that time to think about what those things are.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
And I imagine there's a time element here too, because
of one of the attractive things about a phone is
it can fill thirty seconds, it can fill three hours,
like it will do either of those if you ask
it too. Yes, and a lot of other things do
not equally fill thirty seconds or three hours. So how
can we sort of design our hobbies to fit that
to solve that problem.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, So I used to have a menu for myself
where I said, Okay, if I had one minute, I
can do box breathing. If I have five minutes, I
can like stretch. And so you can make menus for
yourself of what would I do with one five thirty minutes,
sixty minutes, Like I love going to yoga classes, but
I'm going to need more than an hour for that,
And so you're going to be setting yourself up for
failure if you're not taking the time.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Comes straight into consideration. Great question.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And then one practical tip you gave people to consider
about having little space in your life where you are
just not on your phone. I think bathroom breaks that
a challenge you're giving to people.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I think, so I just I feel like it's not necessary.
And I also, I mean people talk about how they
have their best ideas in the shower, you know, And
I think we're losing a lot of that meditative time
where we're kind of zoning out and we have great ideas.
So you know, if everyone gets off their phones while
they're going to the bathroom, I bet you we're just
gonna humanity.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
We'll have so many more great ideas. I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Or spend less time in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Where's the most time in the bathroom? Yeah, it does
not take that long for sure. For sure.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
All right, Well, we're going to take one more quick
ad break and then i'll be back with more from
Ruby Riba. Well, I am back talking with Ruby Riba,
who is the author of How to Stop Scrolling. So
we've been talking a little bit about your schedule already,
but I want to pivot a bit more to how
(16:24):
you structure your time because this podcast is all about
time management. Do you have any sort of morning routine.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, I would say that my kids keep my schedule
pretty rigid. So I wake up at six thirty, thankfully
before they do. I make their breakfast and lunches, I
get them ready, I get them out the door, and
then it's kind of like my morning finally begins at
that point.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I do still have a.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Baby at home, but I bring her down to the
gym with me, and she has a little jumper and
she's jumping in her jumper while I do my workout.
We spend a little more time together and then I
pass her off to ro pair and I start my
work day.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
And what do you tend to do at the beginning
of your work day? How do you structure all that?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
So I usually spend about two hours. If I don't
have meetings, I get out of the house, so I
go to a local coffee shop or a library, and
I spend two hours there taking care of emails, working
that sort of thing. And then as the day goes on,
I shift from book like author mom to author to mom.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Basically as the day goes on, it like creeps in
more and more.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And how do you keep yourself focused while you are writing?
I mean, this is this is always an interesting question
to me because some writing is like you have all
your stuff and you're just writing, and other times you're
engaging with other things. There are things in your email,
there are things online, your studies you're looking up. I mean,
sort of, how do you structure your work to focus
when you need to and not when you.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Don't it's so hard. I feel like I will have
a different answer for you every week.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
But I think that I use a lot of lists
and that helps me stay focused because then I have
an objective, you know, whether it's research or whatever. And
then if I'm feeling particularly unmotivated. I mentioned timers earlier,
I just put on a timer for twenty five minutes.
That always helps me, or I start keeping track. I
also like the stopwatch method where I see how long
(18:13):
I can go, and if I'm just working on writing,
for example, i might say, Okay, I want to get
like ten hours of writing done this week. So then
on Monday, I really want to get done more than
two hours because I feel like I'm ahead, I'm more
than average. I'm like, maybe i'll finish it before Thursday.
So just setting small goals for myself like that, and
they might be time based or they might be objective based.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
That really helps.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
And you mentioned you keep a lot of lists. I'm
curious if there are other interesting lists in your life
that you make use of.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Oh, I have so many lists. I have like my
mom to do list. I have my Ruby to do list.
Because I identify as a person outside of a mother, I
have my author to do list.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, I mean lots of to do lists.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Lots of ideas, date night lists, places we want to
go as a family in Europe or anywhere else, so
many lists. I have lots of notebooks with lists that
I've forgotten about.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, we have a lot of little notebooks around here too,
notebooks for my good ideas. And I now have probably
more notebooks than I have good ideas.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So it is what it is.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So I always ask my guests, what is something you
have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
So I am very lucky in that I have a
lot of amazing girlfriends, most of them are not local,
and so thanks to the voice note, I feel like
I get to listen to my favorite podcast every day
because I'm listening to them talk to me all day.
But last week I booked myself a trip to San
Francisco to visit one of my best friends in the fall.
So that definitely took that day to awesome.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
That is amazing. But let's go to this voice note thing. Yes,
sure so, because I've heard this tip from a lot
of people who want to stay in touch with friends,
how practically does that work? In your life, like when
are you recording your notes? When are you listening to theirs?
Does it go back and forth? You cross notes? Like
how do you keep the narrative going here?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Yes, I mean I am no expert, but I use
voice notes while I'm driving, so it's very efficient for me.
But one of my best friends did ask me. She
was like, are you an angry person? Because sometimes when
I'm driving, I'm like, what is this guy doing? Oh
my god, he's so stupid, and then I go right
back into So I realized that I might have some
road rage while doing these voice notes, but I primarily
(20:21):
do them while driving, and it works for us, and.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Then you listen to them as well while driving.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
I listen to them while driving also, so that means
that if I'm not driving for a while, I might
not listen to your voice note for like a week,
and they still are friends with me.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So I guess it works.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And is the etiquette that you go back and forth
or do notes stack up?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Sometimes they stack up, but I think with one of
my close friends we go back and forth, and with
the other one they just stack shell. She doesn't care,
She's like, I have stuff to tell you. I'm going
to keep sending you voice notes and it's on you
to catch up.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
And I have to do that. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I love it. So what's something you are looking forward to?
You obviously mentioned your trip with your girlfriends. I'm curious
if there's anything else in your life currently that you
are looking forward to.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I am also hopping on a plane on Saturday. I'm
bringing my three year old and my six year old
to Paris in London with my husband, So that's going
to be a lot of fun. And then when we
get back, my three year old son insisted on starting
hockey camp and I think that's just going to be
kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
So I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Got to be adorable. Can he ice?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
No, he cannot, so I don't know why he asked
for that. His options were gymnastics, swimming, and hockey. He's
done gymnastics and swimming, and he just insisted on hockey.
So that reminds me I need to pick up some
equipment for him before we we traveled here.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That is going to be so fun to watch. I'm
enjoying the picture right now. Yes, I'm even thinking. So Ribby,
where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (21:40):
So how to Stop Scrolling dot com. It's just the
title of my book, How to Stop Scrolling. On there,
you can subscribe to my weekly newsletter, The Scroll Shift,
where I give you a simple, actionable tip every Wednesday,
along with a story, a true story. You can also
preview my book there and download some resources, and of
course purchase.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
My book Wonderful Well. Thank you so much Riby for
joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you
have feedback on this or any other episode, you can
always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
In the meantime, this is Laura, Thanks for listening, and
here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for
(22:25):
listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts
from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(22:48):
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Laura Vanderkam
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Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com