TUPPERWARE: Odd Inventor, Timeless Product, And A Woman Ahead Of Her Time

Earl Tupper deserves all the credit for the invention of Tupperware, but it's possible that without the work of Brownie Wise, it might have languished on the shelf.  And yet Brownie's story has largely been buried.  In fact, if Earl had his way, her story would remain buried in an airtight wonder bowl as if it never happened.  This episode of Bizography is the story of a determined inventor, a clash of egos, and a woman ahead of her time.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
If I asked you to name a current home goods
company that's listed on the NASJAC and has over two
billion in net sales, would you think of this company?
My Topperware Blady has the freshest ideas Like all sorts
of sciences and all the surprises. Your Topperware Bady has
the freshest ideas for talking freshness. Kind of shocking. I know,

(00:23):
the company that created the burping seal and gave us
the name we used for all plastic food storage containers
is still quietly going strong. This is Physiography, the show

(00:48):
where we dive into the strange but true stories of
iconic companies. Whether they're a current bright star, in the
midst of a massive dumpster fire, or settling into the
dust heap of history, they all have a past worth knowing.
I'm Dana Barrett. I'm a former tech executive and entrepreneur
and a TV and radio host, and over the course
of my career, I've interviewed thousands of business leaders and

(01:09):
reported on the bright beginnings and massive flame outs of
the brands we know and love. Some of their stories
are inspiring, some get my blood boiling, and some show
just how far we've come. The story behind Tupperware is
one of unlikely partners, big mistakes, and bitter jealousy, and
the role of women in the workplace then and now

(01:31):
with me today as always is my producer, New Guy Nick.
Thank you, Dana. I'm looking forward to this conversation because
I kind of grew up with tupperware in the house.
But I'm just out of curiosity. Were you like putting
lunch together for the show one day and your tupperware thing,
and then you were like, huh, I wonder like, how
did you come up with the idea? All Right? That
cracks me up because first of all, that assumes that
I actually planned my lunches, which doesn't happen. But um no,

(01:56):
I mean I've had tupperware, and I certainly have all
the knockoffs of Tupperware. Now. I think we had tupperware
in the house when I was a kid, Um but
I don't. I mean, aside from calling all of the
plastic were I used tupperware, I haven't actually had real
tupperware literally since I was a kid. I don't think
that said at complete random you know, turn of events

(02:17):
happened with my book club a couple of months ago
and someone recommended this book for the book club, which
was called Life of the Party, the remarkable story of
how Brownie Wise built and lost a Tupperware party empire.
It's by a guy named Bob Keeling, and apparently it
was originally published under another name in two thousand eight. Um,
and it was even option for a movie in which
Sandra Bullock was going to start. I don't think it

(02:39):
ever happened. Um. I wish it had, actually, because the
story of Brownie Wise was so fascinating. Anyway, this book,
Life of the Party was sort of rereleased under this
new name in and again, like I think it did Okay,
got more noticed than it did the first go round,
but still didn't become a huge bestseller. But I was
super intrigued, not only because for wear as an iconic brand,

(03:01):
but because it never could have been what it became
without this incredible woman who, for all intents and purposes,
was written out of the history of the company and
kind of out of history in general, and mostly because
a of her strong personality and be because she was
a woman, or maybe it was a combination of those
two things. So obviously I want to talk about Brownie

(03:23):
Wise and her influence on the company. But before we
do that, we had to talk about how Tupperware even
started and the real genius behind the product itself, and
that is Earl Silas Tupper. He was born in seven
in Berlin, New Hampshire, the only child of a farmer
and named Ernest. They liked the e names and Lulu,

(03:48):
and they weren't doing super well, so they had to
supplement their farm income by running a boarding house and
taking in laundry. And you know, Ernest, the dad sort
of had a reputation at the time of being kind
of unmotivated, maybe a little lazy, like he just wasn't
a guy that had a lot of drive. He had
his farm, he did his thing. He didn't really care

(04:09):
about moving up and ahead in the world. But here
comes a little Earl and he is a completely different
kind of kid. He's a dreamer, he's a tinkerer. He
told people when he was really little that he was
going to be a millionaire um and a famous inventor.
I mean, this is what he knew about himself from
the time he was little. And so he was always

(04:30):
kind of devising gadgets to make the family farm better,
and and and gizmos and all that, so much so
that even by the age of ten, and of course
that was like venteen, he was selling the families produced
door to door, which was not heard of at the time.
Like there wasn't door to door. That wasn't a thing.
So he was like original door to door salesman a

(04:51):
little bit. I mean again, it probably started in different
places in the country at the same time, but people
weren't doing that with farm goods. They would have farm stands, correct,
And this was like sort of his way of like okay, Dad,
let's go you can do this, and let's just go
door to door. And he actually really increased the family's business.
Um by doing that. He was not, however, interested in school.

(05:11):
He was not much of a student. He barely graduated
from high school. But he did finally manage that in um,
I shouldn't say finally. I think it was sort of
on time, but just sort of with reluctance. You know,
he was past the class. Yeah, he got through, he graduated,
but he wasn't super motivated to go on with any
kind of form of higher education, which in fairness in
those days wasn't as common as it is today. Um.

(05:33):
So after he graduated, he was working on the farm.
He was taking odd jobs here and there, but he
had these, you know, dreams of grandeur. And so, by
the way, I should mention that he was, even from
the time he was a kid, sort of known for
being a bit full of himself. He yeah, he thought
he was smarter than everybody else. Apparently he was pretty um,

(05:54):
you know, rude to his dad like he was. He
was sort of known as that guy. Which is interesting though,
because I think a lot of these founders and original
creators of the products and stuff that we've talked about
kind of seemed to almost have that about them. They're
they're they're confident, almost to the level of arrogance. It's
not actually arrogant, yea, they just can back it up right.
I Mean, they're forward thinking, um, but they are um.

(06:19):
But also they have a little bit of a big head,
like the head maybe can't get through the doorway, you know, um.
And that's who who he kind of was. And so
he was, even though he was just sort of doing
the odd jobs, he was always looking to the future.
So he's taking some correspondence courses and he took one
in advertising, and he was thinking even at the time, um,
that advertising was the wave of the future, and so
he even tried to get his parents to you know,

(06:41):
do some more marketing and advertising with the farm, and
they just were not having it. Um. But I just
think his sort of lack of interest in education on
the whole is is interesting because I think a lot
of the successful guys we've talked about in the earlier
episodes had similar back rounds. Right. They didn't really go
to learn about it. They just started doing it and

(07:04):
to be fair, probably did it wrong a number of
times at first, but they just kind of went out
and did right. Yeah. I mean it sort of seems
like that if you think about like Ben and Jerry.
I mean, that was one of my favorite episodes we've
done so far. But those guys were not brilliant students.
It's not they were, um and they ended up being
sort of brilliant business men at the end of the day.
And Um, you know, Tupper I think in many ways

(07:25):
was more like um, the guy who invented vasiline, you know,
sort of that crazy inventor type, right, coming up with
all kinds of ridiculous designs for different things that probably
didn't work. Out, But this one kind of just what
happened to yeah, so so, and there's a whole story
as to how he got there. But ultimately he invented
things on his way, like a better stocking guarter, a
dagger shaped comb that you could clip to your belt,

(07:48):
pants that would not lose their crease wait for it,
a fish powered boat. I want to see the design
for that one. I do too. That seems sort of
brilliant if it worked. Um. Customized cigarettes with names like
Sporty and the Collegiate, and and wait for it, a
better way to take out a burst appendix, because God knows,
medical inventions are kind of the same as cigarettes. I mean,

(08:08):
back in those days, wasn't crazy super weird. Anyway, while
all that was going on, he did really want to
be his own man, and so he started a uh
like a landscaping business. It was called Tupper Tree Doctors,
and he did that for a number of years from
nine thirty six. That was the period in which he
got married, um, but it was also the depression years,

(08:29):
and so after a while his UH clients started to
cut back UM cut back tree surgery, get it um. Anyway,
he ended up going into bankruptcy with that business in
nineteen thirty six. But all along the way he had
been filling notebooks with these inventions and experiments and ideas.
And ultimately, after the tree business was closed, the landscaping

(08:49):
business was closed, he found a job at DuPont and
in particular at their plastics division, which was called Viscaloid,
and it was up in Massachusetts, and he just worked
there for a year, but always sort of considered that
his formal training and design, research, development and manufacturing, and
and for him almost like the beginning of his real
education and as we now know, sort of the beginning

(09:11):
of history being made. UM again only there for one
year and then decides to open his own plastics company
called the Earl S. Tupper Company UM. And at first
he was just contracting back to DuPont. Then he changed
the bulk of his business to wait for it, equipping
American troops with gas masks and other items for World
War Two. So he had a tendency to use plastics

(09:31):
for ceiling way back then. Yeah, right, you know, getting
in a good right, a good sealing UM. And then
after the war he decided to move more towards producing
plastic for consumer goods. But this was a big challenge
at the time because plastics were still very primitive. They
were brittle, they were slimy, they were smelly, and consumers
were finicky about that. They don't want to put their

(09:53):
food in a bowl that was smelly and ugly. And
thinking it's a little bit of a throw back that
this kind of sounds like the vaseline guy because he
first kind of got the yucky left over petroleum good
and turned it into this sellable product to households right right,
And there's a lot of parallels to the story because
essentially DuPont allowed uh Topper to have this masterial if

(10:13):
they didn't want anymore, and that was how he started
experimenting and ultimately got to this polyethylene that became the
basis of Tupperware, and so, you know, and he was
able to take a similarly something that was ugly and
turn you add pretty colors to it and all of
those kind of things. So by Tupper was actually marketing

(10:34):
these home products in this you know, awesome array of
pretty colors, and he was making all kinds of things
that he was doing, okay, with um cases for cigarettes,
tumblers for the bathroom, so like a toothbrush manufacturer would
contract with him to make a cup to go with
their toothbrush. So he was making some money. It was
it was okay um, but he wasn't crushing it. He

(10:55):
was just sort of plotting along. He'd get a contract here,
a deal there, and he was you know, he was
doing okay um. But but Tupperware certainly wasn't branded at
that point, and it was not a household name by
any means, So he wasn't crushing it. He wasn't in
every kitchen across some are as, they say for a while,
absolutely not um. And then his first and most famous
product ultimately became the Wonder Bowl with the patented air

(11:17):
tight lid, and he was getting all kinds of great
reviews in magazines um, and you know, he was called
art you know um, and it was even in a
Smithsonian in somewhere. He was I mean, it was really
like lauded as the design of the future. But the
public just wasn't buying it. I wonder why something like that,
that's it's it's pretty and it's practical, Why aren't people

(11:39):
purchasing that? So it was like any other new product,
like until you know, you need it, you don't know
you need it. People were waiting for it, using shower
caps over bowls to keep things fresh. They were using
tinfoil at the time. It was something they were aluminum
foil that they were very comfortable with. And the lid
you had to learn how to put that lid on.
It had this like burping seal and you had to

(12:00):
learn how to put it on. It wasn't intuitive, and
so it needed to be demonstrated and sitting on a
shelf in a store that wasn't happening. And so that
was sort of where he got stuck. And that's basically
where Brownie Wise, our heroine of the story, comes in.
So let's take a quick break and then we'll go
back and get her history before their lives intersected. So

(12:28):
Brownie Wise was actually born Brownie May Humphrey. She was
born in Beauford, Georgia, in so she was six years
younger than Earl tepper Um. And unlike Earl, who sort
of came from these like wishy, washy, non motivated parents,
Brownie came from strong stock, in particular strong single women.

(12:48):
Her grandmother Um was a single mom because her grandfather
died and so she had seven kids and really just
had to do a lot on her own. UM. And
then her mother, who was also like really ahead of
her time, uh, when she got pregnant with Brownie, was
determined to work even after she had a baby, which
was very rare at the time. UM. And so she

(13:09):
split from Brownie's father pretty early on and continued to
work and actually became a union organizer. And so she
spent a lot of time away from home when Brownie
was little, giving speeches and rallying workers. And so during
that time, Brownie actually spent a lot of time with
her aunts in Atlanta, and some time with her grandmother,
but all in and around Georgia, which is where we

(13:30):
are of course. So that's sort of a fun tie in.
Like Earl, she was sort of bored by school, which
makes me wonder what was going on in school in
those days, right, I don't know. I think I think
it's funny though. Right. A lot of these inventors we've
talked about kind of almost have that They're like, Okay,
I'm this isn't doing it for me. I want more.
I want to get into making things or doing things
or running things. Even at fifteen years old, you know who.

(13:53):
That reminds me of you. Yes, you were always like
I wasn't really challenged by school. I was kind of bored.
I just did what I had to do to get
to So you're going to be a millionaire soon, I predicted.
I hope that you at that prediction comes through. There
you go. Um, But in any case, I think you're right.
I think a lot of times, really smart people, even
today are bored by school. Like we talked about what

(14:14):
Bill Gates ended up leaving college right because of the
same concept. He had another business going on the side,
plus school wasn't really doing it for him, so he
went ahead and left. We see that the Yeah, Zuckerberg,
I mean a lot of them do, I think? Yeah.
I think really smart people just don't aren't getting enough
out of school. Um. In any case, that was sort
of her in her younger years. So she sort of, um,
you know, dropped out of school. And by the way,

(14:35):
she was also like a girly girl, like super into
fashion and you know, writing and you know art. She's
this very sort of girly girl. Um. But since she
dropped out of school, she had the time she started,
uh spending more time with her mother again at that point,
and even by fourteen was giving speeches herself at union rallies.
That's how strong of a personality she was. She was

(14:58):
not an inventor like Topper she did, didn't have that
kind of brain, but she was always apparently really intuitive.
The ability to give speeches at fourteen um her sort
of interest in fashion and figuring out what people were
gonna like and what the trends were, that was always
sort of something that came naturally to her. UM. So
life kind of went on for Brownie Um at the
time the way it did for a lot of women.

(15:19):
She sort of, uh, you know, took some courses and
you know, it was working a little bit here and there,
and I think she ultimately did finish school. And then
in the early nineteen thirties she decided to get more
into art, and she actually entered an art contest and
was given the award to paint a mural um in
Detroit and went there um to do this thing, and

(15:41):
as part of that, she met this corporate executive for
Ford who was named Robert Wise, and ultimately six months
after they met, they married, and that is how she
became Brownie Wise. At first, I thought maybe it was
some kind of stage name, you know, because now and
by the way, the Brownie was after her beautiful brown
eyes when she was born, just her parents liked her

(16:02):
brown eyes, and that's what that was. Yeah, So she
became Brownie Wise after marrying Robert and that was in
nineteen thirty six. Two years later she had her first
and only child, a little boy named Jerry. Now Robert
Wise though he was I think kind of a middle
level manager executive for Ford and you know, sort of
had a reputation with his friends as being like the

(16:23):
party guy, the good time Charlie they called him in
the day, was a heavy drinker and had a pretty
violent temper um and took that out sometimes on Brownie,
sometimes on his own mother. Um. And so ultimately Brownie
was like, you know what, I've seen strong women do
this thing before. I don't need you. And so they
got divorced. By the way, she was never really um
at least it's not recorded anywhere that she was ever

(16:44):
really hurt by him. She just witnessed a lot of
really scary stuff. But then that's kind of revolutionary even
with an abusive husband. One of the incidents that he
that is sort of in the history books, was an
incident where he threw acid a parent currently at his mother,
uh and missed her, but sort of so much acid
he through like it landed on the car and burned

(17:05):
a hole through the car door. I mean, this is
like he was a bad dude. Um. In any case,
she divorced him, was awarded soul custody of their son.
And that was in one just a couple of months
before World War two began. So in a strange way, Um,
the war sort of gave her cover as a single woman,
if you think about it, because so many women sort

(17:26):
of became single in that era, um, even if it
wasn't permanently, their husbands went off to war. So single
women in the workforce. You know, it was the time
of Rosie the Riveter, and um, it was okay for
women to go to work. They had to. And so
that sort of gave her cover to be this sort
of divorced career woman when a lot of women were
doing it. You know, Look, she wasn't doing it entirely

(17:46):
out of choice, um, but to some extent she was.
So after she got divorced, and they're in this you know,
uh war era Brownie and her mother, who she remained
close to, and her son UH stay in the Detroit area.
They buy house in Dearborn, Michigan, and she goes to
work as an executive secretary. Uh. They also try to
make money anyway they can, They take in borders. She

(18:08):
even wrote an advice column under a fake name for
a while. She was it was weirdly Hibiscus. That was
the pen name. I don't really get that, but I
guess the times were different. So like, if you did
that now, I think people would automatically assume there was
something sexual about it. Don't ask me why. I'm just saying,
doesn't that sound like a little like a porn name?
And that would off? But that's not how it was

(18:31):
at the time. It was a very sweet, sort of
flowery um advice column in any case. Um. She went
along that way in that war era for quite some time,
and then, of course, when the war was over, it
became a really interesting and challenging time because now men
came back and they wanted Rosie the riveter to go home,

(18:52):
and the men were going to do the real work.
But she had to keep on going, and so it
was not always easy. But she kept on. She was
doing okay. But the moment that everything changed for Brownie
Wise came in and I kind of love this moment.
I just kind of love it because she was mine,
our own business. And she gets a knock on the
door and it is a door to door salesman from

(19:14):
a company called Stanley Home Products, and he goes to
do his pitch and he does such a bad job
fumbling and bumbling this sales pitch to her that she
thinks to herself, I think I could do better than that,
and so she up and did. Yeah, she up and did.
That's that's kind of funny though, because that's a little

(19:35):
bit similar as to how you got into this whole
radio thing. Is it is very similar to how I
got into the radio thing. Um yeah. The backstory there
is I had done some radio in the past. I
was a traffic reporter and whatever, and I've done some
other things in the entertainment industry, but not a lot.
And I owned a bookstore and I got interviewed on
a book radio show, like a weekend show that somebody had,

(19:56):
and I just was watching this woman before she interviewed
me interview someone else, and then it was my turn
and she interviewed me, and I was thinking to myself
the whole time, really, that's all it takes to be
a radio host. I could totally do better than that.
Uh So I offered my services to the general manager
at that station on my way out the door. And
I hate to say it, but kind of the rest
is history. I sort of ended up in this business

(20:18):
by literally having that same response. I didn't plan to
get back into radio at that time, but it was
sort of like, Okay, if that's all it takes, I
think I could do. It's pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome
because I will say my parents had a cleaning service
for the same reason. They had gone and worked in
all these different offices doing different jobs, and they were
always like, you know, why are these people who clean
these places can't clean anything? And they said, you know what,
we can do it and the money boom. And they

(20:39):
had a service business that lasted eighteen years. Yeah, and
you could do is be like a little better than
the other guy, you know, it's really true. Um. And
so so Brownie goes to work for Stanley for Stanley
Home Products and um and not going she didn't go
to work for the company the way Stanley Home Products
was set up. Um, and a lot of companies apparently
were this way at the time, and I think they

(21:00):
are still companies by the way, that operate this way.
People had dealerships and they represented certain products, and there
are businesses that work that way today. I said it
like I didn't know, but now that I'm saying it
out loud, I realized there really are. And so that
was more what it was. It was like you just
you know, ordered some of the products at dealer prices,
you established yourself as a dealership, and then you went

(21:21):
door to door and sold them. Um. And so that's
what she did. And Um. She really wasn't doing it
because she thought she was going to have this ultimate
career as a seller. She was just doing it to
make some extra income, you know, to supplement her income
as an executive secretary. But eventually she really got into it.
She really learned a lot from the head of Stanley

(21:42):
Home Products, a guy named Frank Stanley Beverage. He in fact,
was the person who really was credited with being the
first to use that sort of home party idea as
a primary sales strategy, and she was it was working
for her and she really felt like he was a mentor,
and she started to make enough money that ultimately she
was able to quit the executive secretary job and invest

(22:04):
herself fully in this sales idea and this dealership model,
and it was, you know, kind of like the multi
level marketing stuff you think of now, where she would
was bringing in new people under her and growing her
business and ultimately sort of had a pretty strong group
of sellers in that Greater Detroit area and um was
kind of going along just fine. Okay, wait wait, wait,

(22:26):
so Frank Beverage kind of gives her this this idea
of the framework to go out and sell and and
use her kind of you know, her personality to bring
these people in. What is Stanley Home Products though, because
when you say Stanley, I think like Toolskay, No, it's not.
And I actually we'd have to do some googling here
because I'm not even sure if those two companies are
related whatsoever, except that they have the same name that

(22:49):
I don't know. Maybe it became later became Stanley Tools,
I don't know, But Stanley Home Products at the time
was really like mops and brooms and you know, just
sort of general purpose household mostly cleaning products and um
like am way kind of back in the day, right,
I mean, And so they were. You know, it wasn't
like he gave her the tool to create something brand new.
She was sort of following the model he already had.

(23:10):
And their home part he was credited with starting the
home party, but it wasn't a party in the way
temperware parties ultimately ended up. What they did was more
of sort of a group in home product demonstration and
less of a party. And so um, it all started
because somebody else, not Frank, but somebody that was working
I think for their company. I went to do a

(23:32):
door to door sales thing and then asked if he
could invite some of the neighbors over. The woman who
owned the home said yeah, okay, sure, great, and some
of the neighbors came over, and so he did a
demo for a group at one time. And that's sort
of how the idea began. When Frank Beverage, whose middle
name was Stanley, saw that, he said, oh, this this
is a good idea. This is gonna work because that

(23:52):
guy's sales shot up and he saw that happening over
and over with that one guy whoever he was. He
really should have gotten the credit. Who knows who he was,
random guy UM. In any case, that's where that whole
thing came in. And so Brownie wasn't really um innovating
at that point yet. She was just learning UM and
executing this sort of party slash demonstration model that had

(24:13):
gotten started. Okay, So it wasn't really the fun come over, eat, drink,
see some cool stuff. It was like, hey, someone's coming
to sell me mops. You should come look at them, right,
And the women in the neighborhood who this was primarily
aimed at, liked it because it was an opportunity for
them to sort of get out of the Remember these
were primarily homemakers. They were at home all day long,

(24:33):
and so this was an opportunity for them to legitimately
get out of the house for a little bit, maybe
leave the kids with a babysitter, and go do something
for an hour. So that's sort of why it became
popular and how it got started. So she was Brownie
Wise was happily working for UH for Stanley, you know,
with this dealership model, and she was doing well. She
built up a you know, sort of a group of

(24:56):
dealers that worked underneath her, and um, all was going, well,
I want to mention one name and all of this,
and I just that's important sort of for the future
of the company. She had this young sort of sidekick
named Gary McDonald. He was sixteen, I think when he
started with his aunt. Even younger than that. He had
been helping his aunt, who was a dealer distributor, but

(25:17):
then he got interested and he got involved. Um and
he was also a sort of very innovative and a
forward thinking kid and asked if he could have his
own dealership, you know, asked his aunt. She said yes,
and so he started selling right along, uh, you know,
with his aunt under Brownie's umbrella. In any case, just
put that in your back pocket. We'll get back to
Gary later. But ultimately she was doing well. She was

(25:38):
happy at Stanley. Everything was great. Well, then Gary and
some of the other folks, um, not not just Gary,
but some of the other dealers started to see this
plastic tupperware product on shelves at stores and started to
see the problems it was having and realized that it
needed a home demonstration because of the way the seal worked.
This patented air tight seal that earl Tupper had invented

(26:01):
it needed it needed to be shown off, and that
was just not happening when it was sitting on a
shelf somewhere. And so they started putting it in front
of Brownie, saying, hey, what if we got involved with
this product? And she was sort of like, you know what,
I'm really a fan of Frank. I like what's happening
here with Stanley? Like, yeah, that's interesting, but I'm not
really ready for that yet. Okay. So she was almost
kind of towing the corporate line in a sense. She

(26:23):
was trying to stay honorable to the person that helped
her out. Absolutely um. And then something changed, but we'll
talk about it. After this, Brownie Wise was happily working
for Stanley Home Products with her mentor Frank Stanley Beverage.

(26:47):
When Frank decided it would be a great idea since
he had distributed sales people all over the country, to
kind of bring them all to the corporate headquarters and
have you know, a rally of sorts. So he organizes
this big event at corporate quarters in Massachusetts, and um,
and Brownie and her team go there along with lots
of other teams and you know, the Detroit team is

(27:08):
lauded for all it's great work. They're they're applauded, their
their signs, welcoming them and all of this stuff. But
Brownie had an ulterior motive when she went there. She
wasn't just going there to be part of the hoop la.
She wanted to talk to upper management because she already
felt like she had learned a lot and she could
contribute at a higher level, and she had big goals
and dreams and plans at this point. She wanted to

(27:28):
move up in management. She was you know, woman here
her roar. Well, she sat down with Frank and he
wasn't having it. She had no idea going in to
the meeting that she would be held back by nothing
other than her gender. When she told Frank she wanted
to move into management, he basically said, quote, don't waste

(27:52):
your time. Management is no place for a woman. End quote. Yeah. Um, look,
that's the era that it was. And to some extent,
I want to be mad at at Frank, at at
Frank beverage. But on the other hand, it's not really
that shocking. I am I am sure that that conversation
happened all across. I was going to say America but

(28:14):
probably the world, and I'm sure in some countries it
still does happen. Um in any case, I feel like
here there is still a lot of gender inequality, but
nobody's that blatant exactly, but that is exactly what happened.
And Brownie Wise, being who she was, let's just be
honest in today's terminology, she was piste off. She was

(28:35):
piste off, and it motivated her. Some people get piste
off and they crawl in a hole and they just
are mad, but not Brownie Wise. It's just motivated her
to prove him wrong and to do better and to
do more. And so she went back to to Dearborn
and she started looking at that Tupperware product line more seriously,
and ultimately she started integrating Tupperware into her product line,

(28:59):
uh and into that of all of the sellers that
we're working in her region. And eventually she phased out
the Stanley products altogether and started really building up the
Tupperware business. By nineteen forty nine, In fact, Brownie was
buying so much Tupperware that she actually had to move
her distribution out of her house into an actual warehouse.
Imagine that, like you know your mom's friend, the Avon lady,

(29:22):
who was selling so much Avon or whatever that she
has to move into a warehouse. Yeah. I think that's
kind of what right, that's like what everyone wants to do.
But yeah, I mean this is how much she was selling. Yeah,
she was totally crushing it. And by the end of
the year her Polly t Air quoting Matt sales because
it wasn't Tupperware yet then it was Polly t Um

(29:43):
her her Polly t sales figures for that year ninety nine,
she had purchased close to sixty six thousand dollars worth
of merchandise from a local supplier and over eighties six
thousand dollars direct from Tupper. That is the evalent of
over one point six million dollars today. That's how much
she was by ing to turn around and resell Wow
as an out of her home business and said, well,

(30:04):
now out of a warehouse, but right as as an
independent dealer, as a woman in um. So obviously this
gets Earl Tupper's attention, and he sends one of his
executives out to meet her and her still teenage protege,
Gary McDonald, and of course they wind and dined Brownie.
I don't think they could wind and dine Gary, he's

(30:26):
a little young for that. But they wind and dined
Brownie and basically asked her to to move to Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
And uh, they said they'd give her the rights to
basically set up dealerships all over the stage. She would
have the entire state as her territory. So she talked
to some of her dealers locally and you know, in
in the Dearborn, Michigan area, and some of them even

(30:47):
went with her and they decided to do it. So
nineteen fifty, Brownie moves to Florida along with her mother,
her son Jerry, and a handful of those faithful dealers
from the Michigan area and she started to build old
this you know, iconic home party business. She wrote the
first manual for the dealers, detailing what was then called

(31:09):
the patio party Plan because he was Florida, so there
were patias, you know, um. And it defined the roles
of dealer, hostess and guests and laid out exactly how
a party should be run. Now, like we talked about before,
they weren't really parties as much as home demonstrations. But
Brownie really started and I think she had already been
doing some of this in Michigan, but really started to

(31:30):
beef up this idea of it is a party and
you are entertaining your guests. She created games for these
parties that became legendary, Like they would fill a tupperware
bowl with liquid and toss it to someone across the room,
and of course the ladies would be freaking out until
they saw that nothing would come out of it. Um.
And remember these were ladies who were covering their tupperware

(31:51):
or they're you know, their prior leftovers with shower caps.
So if you toss that across the room a the
glass bowl would break, you know, and be you would
have leftovers on your ceiling. It's genius, though, to take
it into the game concept like that, just something that's fun,
that's like, oh and by the way, good product, right, Yeah,
that's totally so. She also I couldn't believe this one
because I don't know if this would work and what

(32:11):
wouldn't work with my knockoff tupperware. But they would actually
fill the tupperware up and bounce it on the floor,
and I know, I don't think that would work now,
especially with the square shape. No. But she also focused
really heavily on recruiting and training new dealers, and she
was really into the personal relationship, a lot of letter

(32:32):
writing with individuals, encouragement training. She really believed in people.
In fact, later that sort of became her sales mantra,
which I think was something along the lines of if
you build the people, they will build the business. I'm
pretty sure that's what her right, which was very forward thinking,
like it was way ahead of her time the way
she thought. Um. But there were problems because even though

(32:54):
Florida had been promised to Brownie, there were already some
dealers in place, and some territorial squabbles began, and that
was how also happening in other states at the same time.
And so Earl Tupper saw all of this and he
knew he had to deal with these problems. So he
decided he was going to end the dealer model altogether
and bring this whole home party idea in house to

(33:16):
corporate by creating what he called a Hostess division, and
it was going to be based on Long Island, New York. Uh,
And that's how it was going to go. And so
this way the company could control the territories, standardize the practices,
and he would sort of put his thumb down on
all this craziness. And so people like Brownie Wise, these
longtime dealers and distributors, uh like Brownie, several others around

(33:36):
the country, they were all literally asked to end their
local businesses and come into the company as what they
were calling area managers. And while this might have actually
been the right idea that Tupper had, he hired the
wrong guy to run this division, and it got worse
the territory. The territorial squabbles just got worse the company

(33:59):
because now instead of fulfilling orders from all these different distributorships,
they were trying to fill them all from corporate and
they couldn't fill their orders. And this guy that he hired,
not only was he just sort of a bad manager,
he was also likely a crook, and ultimately he had
to be let go. Earl Tupper got rid of him, uh,

(34:21):
but not before hearing from Brownie Wise for the first
time ever directly because Brownie, as we know, had a
very strong personality, so in things were so bad for
her her the people under her were upset, they were
yelling at her. She kept yelling up to this guy
Norman Squire's he wasn't responding, So finally she calls headquarters
one day and according to Bob Keeling's book, Life of

(34:42):
the Party, Uh, some unassuming operator at the Tepper Corporation
picks up the phone and here's this like shrieking woman saying,
I demand to speak to Tupper. So she puts the
call through. Immediately Tupper picks up, and she says, this
is Brownie Wise in Miami, and he says, well, I
knew who you are, and she just gave it to him.

(35:02):
I wonder if you know how serious a problem this is.
This is the first time she ever talks to essentially
her boss, and she's chewing him out. Yeah, And Tupper
was like a guy who loved, you know, being the
boss and having respect. He was not a showman, but
he was a serious businessman and he demanded respect. And
for him, that kind of insolent talk would have gotten

(35:23):
any other employee fired. But Tupper was sort of savvy
enough to see how much this woman was selling for him,
and so he told her he would take care of
the problem, hung up the phone and took care of it.
And in fact, when he called her back. He said
he wanted to meet in person. She was still so
annoyed with him that she gave him her terms for

(35:44):
the meeting. Yeah, I can't even imagine, Like I'm pretty
I'm pretty insolent, and I wouldn't do you know. She
really was pretty full of herself, and so he wanted
her to come to his office. She was like, I'm
not doing that. I mean, they had this whole back

(36:04):
in for sho I'm too busy. I'm not doing that. Ultimately,
they did meet for the first time ever in person
in April ninety one, and um, the way that it
happened was that he decided to bring a whole group
of people up to meet him. And so what they
decided to do was get rid of this Norman Squire's guy,
get rid of that whole division, like, scrap it all

(36:24):
together and start over with what they were going to
call the Tupperware Home Party's Division. So no longer the
hostess division, It's a whole new thing, and Brownie essentially
is now in charge. She becomes the general sales manager
and finally gets the chance that Frank Beveridge denied her
back in the day. She finally gets this chance to
move up into management. And so, you know, it seemed

(36:48):
in a lot of ways like Tupper was really modern
in his thinking about women in business. But I was
about to say, though, it does really seem like he
kind of in this regard did the right thing right
the the woman who's selling a ton of his product.
It's it's at the time in groundbreaking to put a
woman that high up and executive, right, He's he's doing
the right things at this point, it seems. But yeah,

(37:10):
and there was even an earlier incident um where one
of his male um underlings had done something rude as
it related to women. It had nothing to do with Brownie,
but and he wrote a letter or wrote a letter
to this employee basically putting him in his place and
saying that's not how you treat women, and your colleagues
are not going to respect you for that, and no
bad you. So it did sort of seem like he

(37:33):
was pretty forward thinking as it related to women in business.
But there's more to it, because really, look, ultimately the
guy had profit on his mind. She was making him money,
and he was able to um get over whatever his
woman issues were to have her there and so I
don't think he was maybe as advanced as he probably

(37:53):
would have liked you to think looking back. Um, but
he did do the right thing. He certainly was more
advanced than Frank Beverage had been. Right, it all just
came down to money. Yeah, I think so, I mean
I really did. And there's also there was a personality
thing here too. So look, he brings her on in
this role and essentially the next let's say five to

(38:14):
seven years, well the next seven years really is their
history together. But for maybe four to five of those years,
it was like there was no stopping them. They were
on fire. And you know, she was sort of heading
up the sales side. He was heading up manufacturing and operations.
But but the thing is Earl was kind of shy.
He didn't want to be in the spotlight. He was

(38:36):
uncomfortable in the spotlight. And she was the opposite. She
loved to be the star. She loved all the attention
and so um as they started to grow and she
developed this you know, party plan and and was writing
her newsletters and all the things she was doing to
kind of bring people into the fold. Uh, they hired
a Madison Avenue PR firm and these two guys come

(38:57):
in from Madison Avenue and they're like seeing Annie Wise,
and they go, you know what, this would sell really well.
She would sell really well. And so they suggested making
her sort of the face of the company, and Earl
was fine with it. Earl went along with it because
he didn't want to be the star. The thing is,
Earle wanted the tupper ware to be the star. He
didn't really want Brownie Wise to be the star either,

(39:19):
so he went along with it, but it right away
I think started to irk him because she started to
get a lot of press and and in some cases,
in many cases, the press was her and barely mentioned
the product rights, and he was all about the tupper
where he wanted that stuff to sell, not Brownie side note,

(39:42):
this is how shy Earl was. He I don't know
if shy is the right word, but he just didn't
He just didn't like being the in the spotlight in
that way. I don't think he was necessarily shy in
a business meeting or shy one on one, but he
would go to the Florida headquarters that Brownie was running
and introduce himself as Mr ste As in his initials
Earl Silas Tepper, mr ST. Yeah, or sometimes he just

(40:05):
would hand out a business card that said E. S T.
His initials like not. He wouldn't tell people who he was. Yeah,
and here's another little insight into their personalities. And by
the way, there's a lot of people who in hindsight
looked back at this relationship and just said, these two
were basically on two trains headed for a collision from
the minute they met. Their personalities were too strong, they
were both too driven. He was known by most as

(40:28):
the boss when he came to town, but she was
known as the Queen. Oh, I'm sure that did not
sit well with Earl. She literally can you imagine me
doing this in the radio studio or in the podcast.
She literally had a giant wicker chair, you know, one
of those ones with like the big fan back behind
her that looked like a throne that she sat in
behind her desk. Yeah, and that's what she sat in

(40:50):
at meetings and behind her desk when she basically had
a throne, a Florida throne. It was a wicker oh yeah,
oh yeah. Um. And they never they they the two
of them, you know, sort of butt heads about a
lot of different issues. For example, um, even where to
place the corporate headquarters. She wanted a flashy museum kind

(41:10):
of right in the middle of where everything is happening.
And he wanted to buy like some cheap land, like
maybe an old airport hangar in the middle of nowhere.
It didn't matter. And so they were constantly butting heads
on all of that. But meanwhile, the money was coming in,
the press was flowing, and she was crafting all these
new you know, sort of attention getting things up to

(41:31):
and including this idea that they should have these annual jubilees,
that we're going to celebrate the anniversary the birthday, if
you will, of the tupper home Party's division. And so
they had had a couple of years. They started it
in nineteen fifty two ish, I think by nine they
were like, you know what, we need a better way
to celebrate this, So let's do this thing. We'll call

(41:54):
it a jubilee. The first annual Tupperware Homecoming Jubilee started
in nineteen The very first one had a Western theme. Uh,
they did stuff like they wanted the dealers to have
to dig for treasure as if they were mining for gold,
essentially going west so they spent all this time burying
tupperware with treasures inside, literally diamond watches, like tickets to things,

(42:16):
and they put it all in tupperware and buried it
so much so that some of it never was found
until many years later when they dredge that area to
build a lake. Oh gosh, that's crazy. Anyway, it was.
It was like again, way ahead of her time. It
was almost like reality TV show brilliant, right, I mean,
this is and this is so zany and so brilliant

(42:39):
and so attention getting that it literally got international press.
CBS covers this, the BBC covers it. Life Magazine covers it,
and it's all about Brownie Wise and Brownie Wise being
the leader, and very little mention of Earl. And this
kind of press and coverage went on and on and
on throughout the next several years, and as it continued,

(43:01):
Earl got more and more sort of dissatisfied, and not
to mention the fact that they were having skirmishes over
products and skirmishes over all kinds of stuff. After one
particular article that showed a picture of Brownie not with
the tupperware but sort of sitting over ledgers and accounting documents.
Earl sent her a letter that said, apparently she sent

(43:22):
him the pictures, and he sent her back a letter
that said, thanks for the pictures, with the interesting quotes
on the back. This is a direct quote from his letter.
The one with your elbows on the ledgers, fingers interlaced
with chin resting on fingers, and smile on your face.
Looks like a very good executive in a very good
frame of mind. Apparently the book's balanced. However, good executive

(43:43):
as you are. I still like best the pictures as
a woman of course with tupperware. So yeah, it wasn't
quite over his little shade, right, And looking back on
how this whole story ends up, Brownie Wise probably should
have read that memo as a little bit of a

(44:04):
warning not to get too caught up in this image
of herself as an executive and more focus on the product.
But she didn't get the message, and the good times
were sort of about to come crashing down. We'll talk
about that. Read it for this. So in the mid

(44:30):
nineteen fifties, sales just weren't as good for tupper wear.
I'm not exactly sure why. I think there were a
variety of factors. There was some new competition in in town.
There were different kind of jobs and availability for people,
so they were losing some dealers here and there. There
was some infighting. I mean, listen, Brownie was a really
strong personality. She was a woman leader in an error

(44:52):
when a lot of men were not feeling that. So
there was a lot of jealousy and she was not
shy about putting people in their place. One guy that
Brownie got into it with was this guy named Hammer Wilson,
who was another uh I guess sort of executive coming
up with Tupper in this home party's division. And he
made a decision about some landscaping at corporate headquarters without

(45:14):
checking in with her, and she just let him have it.
And she was not shy about those kind of things.
So she made enemies here and there. All things considered
and all the factors considered, business just started to fall
off and it wasn't terrible, but the numbers were not
what they had been. The nineteen fifty four was sort
of the heyday, and by nineteen fifty six fifty seven,

(45:35):
the sales numbers were you know, the growth just wasn't
as strong. Meanwhile, you know, the press was still loving
Brownie wise, and the jubilees were happening year after year,
and so nineteen fifty seven, no exception, she decides to
throw this huge jubilee. Maybe it was night but meanwhile,
by the way, these jubilees, I believe, so I'll go
on to this day. Yeah, they do. As far as

(45:56):
I understand, there is still like I don't think they're
quite as grand as they once, right, but there is
still like a big get together of the Tupperware sales
celebrates doing their job. Right. Yeah. Then every year they
did a theme, and I mean they really got into it.
And so this particular year, the theme was around the

(46:17):
World in eighty days, and so each Tupperware dealer and
manager had a different destination and they did all kinds
of you know, they did Japan and Holland and grass
huts on the road to zans A bar, and they
had Irish stuff and Hong Kong stuff and I mean,
you name. It's incredibly complex for a corporate party, but
most of us expect like off brand SODA's and pizza

(46:39):
in the conference room. Right step up. Yeah that times
were different. Uh side note, um, they also owned an
island that was Brownie's decision to buy this island, but
the company owned it and they used it for events
among other things. And so part of the plan for
this huge jubilee was to get local um people who

(47:02):
own boats to kind of trade riding some of the
attendees in their boats over to the island for an
evening lu au and a party, and in exchange, these
boat owners could also participate and come to the party.
So they didn't actually pay them. They just sort of traded, Hey,
you you bring some people over and you can come
hang with us. But this was like the hot event
in town, so they were excited to do it. And

(47:23):
of course they were instructed not to drink um, you know,
not to drink and boat of course, right, but they
did at that and a storm that hit that Brownie
didn't really do enough preparation for, didn't really plan for,
caused essentially a major disaster. So the night is wearing on,
the people are partying on this island and the storm

(47:45):
is coming in. Some people some of the boat drivers
just left and didn't take people. Brownie herself, actually, in
a very sort of un Brownie wise moment, got on
a boat and left and went home and left her
guests to sort of end for themselves. Yeah, and the
you know, some of the the how do what do
you call him? Captains? Some of them the people who

(48:06):
had both I don't know, voters, what do you call voters?
Probably doubt captain would classify with this ended chief. Uh,
some of them were drunk, and so when they were
trying to get back to the mainland, they were they
were crashing and they were all kinds of capsizing and
crashing and crushing into each other two boats. I mean,

(48:27):
it was craziness. And so people were injured, some people
were stranded on the island for way longer than they
ever intended to be. There was all kinds of chaos
and lawsuits and all sorts of craziness. Now, Brownie and
Earle had formed a really good relationship with the press
at the time, and they were able to sort of
avoid a major hit in the press. However, this was

(48:48):
like now, pretty much the last draw for Earl, who
was already frustrated with Brownies sort of you know, putting
him totally in the shadows. He didn't he didn't want
to be in a spotlight, but he also didn't want
to be forgotten, right, so I do have to, though,
real quick interject and ask one quick question. Okay, as
the millennial in the room, right, I try to bring

(49:09):
the younger perspective. What happened to the young guy? Right?
Gary McDonald worked as a teenager in Michigan with Brownie Wise,
and he was like this up and comer, and it
seems like he kind of didn't stay at the forefront anymore.
He wasn't on the island. Was he perfect timing for
that question because Gary was involved in this procolod aunt

(49:29):
he was there. But let's back up. So he's a
teenager working with Brownie in Michigan. He's one of the
people I believe that moves to Florida. But I think
it went like this. I think he went off to
the military for a minute in his late teens, eighteen
nineteen years old, but by twenty his asthma was sort
of keeping him from being a great soldier. So when
Earle was awarding this this executive role to Brownie, it

(49:52):
just so happened that Gary was coming back from the military,
and Earl was excited about that and invited Gary also,
and she and he sort of became her lieutenant and
second in command and so he was working with Brownie
all throughout the nineteen fifties. So when this event occurs
with the Jubilee, I mean he was there and he
was trying to help and all of those things, and
he was a witness to all of this. He talked

(50:13):
about it for many years after. Ultimately this was sort
of the end, and shortly thereafter Earl had had it.
He now had what he literally called himself a quote
Brownie Wise problem. And at one point, right you know,
right before the real end, he calls a meeting with
Gary McDonald and h Hammer Wilson, who I just mentioned

(50:36):
the guy who got into the fight with her about
the landscaping, who was an older guy. So look, Gary
was still in his twenties. He was still a young guy,
and Earl wasn't ready to hand the company over to
someone in their twenties, but he liked Hamer. So he
brings the two of them in and he says, I
have a big announcement coming up, and they're looking around,
like if you have a big announcement, where's Brownie? And
he says, I'm firing Brownie Wise, and you two are

(50:58):
going to take over. Wow. So that's what happened to Gary. Ultimately,
Brownie was indeed fired and uh, then sort of they said,
you can't fire her like fall out. People are gonna
get upset and rebel because people loved her. The dealers
loved her. Not everyone loved her, but a lot of
people did. And so they ultimately offered her this sort
of one year, like you can still be the face

(51:22):
of the company, but we're not going to actually let
you do anything contract um. And then when the final
contract got written up, it wasn't even what they promised
in that regard and Gary, Uh, look, a lot of
people sort of decided to get up and walk away
when Brownie left, and Gary didn't. He stayed and apparently

(51:42):
he felt really guilty about it, and she felt betrayed
that but that had been his life. I mean, this
is the only thing he knew. Uh. And so you know,
I don't know whether or not their personal relationship really
continued after all of this. I don't want to talk
before we kind of conclude this thing. I want to

(52:02):
talk a little bit about the money here, because when
Brownie wise got hired by Earl, she was paid I
think it was in the twenty dollar range, which in
today's money is about two hundred thousand dollars. A couple
of years later, she got a ten thousand dollar raise,
so there you go. I mean it's like ten times,
so that was almost three hundred thousand dollars in today's money, right.

(52:23):
Plus she ended up buying I'm air quoting buying a home,
but really the company bought it and she was leasing
it sort of. And same thing with this island that
air quotes she bought, but somehow it was the company.
They were going to be able to use it for events,
so they would take care of it and she could
just you know, blah blah. And all of this was

(52:45):
sort of with verbal agreements with Earl, and she didn't
get any of it in writing. So when she got fired,
she also got a sixty day notice to evacuate her
mansion her home, uh and basically was left with to nothing. Now.
She sued for I think a million six and didn't win.

(53:05):
She got a settlement for like I don't remember the
number now, but I want to say less than a
hundred thousand, and that was sort of it. And then
Earl Tupper was so egotistical that he wanted her written
out of the company. She had written a book earlier
on about her experiences. He literally, wait for it, had
the staff take the books outside and bury them wow,

(53:29):
and wrote her out of company history altogether. That's like
an absurd amount of ego. Hey, they really it's crazy
to think that two people who were so successful ended
up just down right being each other, hating each other. Yeah,
And there's also this piece of the firing that sort
of alleges that he made comments about the fact that

(53:49):
he had wanted to sell the business and that he
was afraid he could not sell it with a woman
in leadership, and so that was part of it. It
was also the sales numbers declining, and then this jubilee
incident just was the icing on the cake and that
was it for him. So fast forward to modern times. Tupperware,
as I think I started the episode out by saying,
is incredibly successful still to this day. I mean, you know,

(54:13):
it's a public company. They're making you know, over two
billion in net sales trading on the NASDAK two today
and so but like we started this out by saying,
do you have Tupperware? Now I don't have Tupperware. Do
you have Tupperware? Right? I think we've all got. We've
all got probably some kind of off brand version of Tupperware,

(54:36):
but actual Tupperware brand it's hard to come by, right,
And the reason, in part is because they for the
they ostensibly have stuck to the home party plan all
these years. You cannot buy tupperware in stores. There's some
like tupperware show rooms around this new kind of philosophy
they have, but there's still really just like a place
for a dealer to show their wares, and you still

(54:57):
order it and have it sent to you. They are
doing more online, and part of their success is because
they're still going into parts of the world where home
parties make sense, So they're still you know, they're going
into less developed countries and things like that, and so
some of their expansion is not unlike what we might
see with Coca Cola companies like that, where the expansion
is creeping into every corner of the world. Got you,

(55:18):
it's more the international markets that haven't been tapped at all. Correct.
But it seems really strange sitting here in the US
that they wouldn't be trying to go after you and
me and everybody we know, because we all have, as
you said, some form of copycat tupperware, and why wouldn't
we want the real thing if we could get it. Yeah,
that's a good point. It's odd. It is strange, and

(55:40):
especially the fact that they're that successful. Like you said,
it's in international markets, but you know, most of even
these developing countries have the you know, rubber products that
we have too, So that's interesting. Yeah, it's very strange.
So in any case, Look, they are still doing well.
I don't know if that can continue forever if they
don't figure out to continue to engage more modern markets. Um.

(56:03):
You know, there are other home parties, certainly companies that
are successful now. And as you said and as I've
we both said, there's lots of plastic containers out there
in the world. Um. The other thing that's really interesting
is that Brownies um story was buried, literally buried after
this whole thing went down, but it has sort of

(56:24):
come back, um with this book by Bob Keeling, you know,
with an almost movie. There has been some interest in
her story. And for the first time ever, uh, Tepperware
has a female president and CEO as of May. So
that's also I mean, it's kind of amazing that it

(56:45):
took that long. In fairness to them, I think they
had a very successful male CEO for years, so no
offense to him, and I think he was very female
friendly boss. But nonetheless he moved on. He retired. I
believe Rick Goings is his name, and Tricia Stitzel is
now president and CEO of Tupperware, And like I said,

(57:05):
they are still going strong. So I guess at this point,
my my philosophy for tepper wears fingers crossed, fingers crossed,
that they keep on going and that the Brownie wise
legend gets glorified even more even beyond our podcast in
the book and whatever else. And now I have one
question for you and for all the listeners. Are you

(57:25):
going to try and go find a tupper party to
go to now? Because now I'm a little interested. I
want to go see I want to see the new stuff.
Well you know what I have noticed, my my like
mock Tupperware isn't that great? Right? So I kind of
want the purping seal hashtag, not in ned hashtag, not
mad hashtag. That's our show. We'll see you next time.

(57:47):
The ziography is produced by the I Heart Podcast Network.
I'm your host, Dana Baron, my co host is Nick Bean,
our producer is Tory Harrison, and our executive producer is
Jonathan Strickland. Have questions I want to give us feedback.
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(58:09):
or just search for me on LinkedIn. Thanks for your support.