September 17, 2014 • 40 mins
How do girls' relationships with their fathers influence who they grow up to become? Cristen and Caroline unpack the psychology of "daddy issues" and the unique dynamics of father-daughter bonding.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline. And this episode is part two, uh
weird Parental Psychology Week because in the last episode we
(00:24):
talked all about the Mama's Boy trope, and today we're
going to talk about daddy's girls and daddy issues, right
because you know, we we started off our Mama's Boy,
which I know you listen to. We started off our
Mom's Boy episode talking about kind of the darker side
of not only being a mom's boy, but what people
(00:46):
assumed about you and what that meant. Hitler, Yeah, We're talked.
We talked a lot about Hitler, a lot about Hitler. Um.
We're not going to talk about Hitler this time that
I know of, Kristen Um, but we are going to
talk about daddy issues because us that is never meant
as a positive thing. No, it's not. And it hadn't
(01:06):
occurred to me until I don't know what I was reading,
but I was on the internet and someone made some
quip about, you know, insulting a woman by calling by
saying that she must have daddy issues and a little
stuff I've never told you. Bell went on off in
my brain, thinking why is that a thing? Why is that?
(01:29):
I mean not not why our daddy issues a thing,
although we will talk about that, but why is that
this pop cultural knee jerk insult directed at women and
a lot directed at feminists. Now, for our international listeners
who might not be so familiar with this term, daddy issues,
for a little bit of a very casual definition of
(01:49):
what it is. According to the Urban Dictionary, it's whenever
a female has a screwed up, for the podcast relationship
with her father or absence of a father figure during
her childhood, so it tends to spill into any adult
relationship they embark on, usually to the chagrin of any
poor male in her life. So stereotypically, women with daddy
issues are needy, obsessive, dramatic, insecure and looking for love
(02:13):
and all the wrong places. Well that'll be in my
head for the rest of the day. Um. But it's
also tacked onto women and girls who are specifically attracted
to older men, and just people assume that something's got
to be wrong with you if you're attracted to somebody
who's even a little bit older. Yeah, you must be
secretly wanting to have sex with your father. And then
(02:35):
there's a whole idea that vocal feminists must certainly have
toxic relationships or Harbard hatred toward their dad's because why
else would they have and expressed distaste with a patriarchal
status quo feminists be heaven daddy issues that that is
one of the most like just the hallmark of a
(02:56):
trollish criticism that you will get on the internet if
you talk about gender equality long enough. Not that it's
ever happened to me. And for the record, I love
my dad. I have a perfectly healthy relationship with him.
But why am I even having to defend that? I
don't know, Kristen, I don't know, because we're about to
talk about why that's so good that you have a
(03:17):
relationship with your dad. Yeah. So there is a whole
bunch of research on the dynamics and effects and impacts
of the father daughter relationship. I would say even more
so comparing it to what we read about for our
Mama's Boy episode. It seems like this father daughter relationship
(03:40):
has been put even more so under the academic microscope
than the mother's son relationship. Yeah, Whereas it seems like
a lot of the mama's boy research, you know, if
there was any academic psychological research, was all really early,
and it was all super negative and awful, and it
was all sort of justifying why being a mama's boy
(04:01):
is so terrible. It was very homophobic, very homophobic. Whereas
the studies into being a daddy's girl or having quote
daddy issues or whatever, it's much more um encouraging of
that relationship, Yeah, encouraging if you have an active paternal presence,
it's very pro dad being involved with her daughter. Whereas
(04:23):
on the flip side, there's a lot of panic where
if you have a negative relationship or non existent relationship
with a father figure, then you will have a lot
of premarital sex, which we will get into more. There's
a lot of sex panic surrounding this whole daddy issues
and daddy's girl things. So there was a two thousand
(04:43):
fourteen study published in the Men's Studies Press called Father's
in the Dorm Room The Unique Influence of Fathers and
Mothers on Young Adult Functioning, And it was really fascinating
because it wasn't so much focused on the father daughter relationship,
but rather just the paternal influence on kids, sons and
(05:04):
daughters alike, and how they developed psychologically, their self esteem,
rates of depression, and previous studies cited in this two
thousand fourteen study note how dad's in particular have a
very strong influence, even stronger some would say, than moms
(05:25):
on young kids. Yeah, so they cited a twelve study,
for instance, that found that father's acceptance might correlate stronger
to children's psychological adjustment versus mother's acceptance. And similarly, a
two thousand eight study found that a father's indifference was
more related to children's scores on measures of depression. And
(05:48):
a two thousand to study looked at father's sensitivity during
toddler play and tied it to predicted attachment representations and
adolescents versus the mothers and influence. So all of these
studies are pointing to dad having a super strong influence
on all all number of things. Yeah, and this isn't
just within American culture. A lot of these study findings
(06:09):
do apply across culturally as well. And in this study,
sample the kids that they looked at for the father's
in the dorm room, which is such a creepy image study,
they found that father's acceptance was substantially more variable than
mother's acceptance levels. And this is a theme that you
(06:30):
see come up a lot when it comes to the
father daughter relationship. This idea that we sometimes as children
take our mother's love for granted, whereas a father's love
and acceptance of us. I think that acceptance party is
really important, is something that we feel like we have
to earn. Yeah. And so I had like like a real,
(06:53):
like real talk moment with myself when I was reading
these studies in the yeah, real talking, real talking to
my of like, hey, you you're all right, You're right,
But no, I I can feel this, uh from my
own experience because my mother I'm an only raised an
only child, uh, and my mother was like we were
super close. I was more of a mama's girl than
(07:16):
a daddy's girl. Even though my dad and I were
always close and had a good relationship, but it always
felt like, oh, well, I'm always perfect in my mother's eyes,
Like she's always going to think I'm perfect, and then
I'm the prettiest and the best and the smartest, um,
whereas my dad is a little more on the stoic side.
And so It's like I knew he was proud of me,
(07:37):
but I really felt like I had to work harder
to earn that pride and that acceptance and that attention.
I can completely empathize with it. And and that seems
too like a common theme that you see in in
this studying fact from two thousand and fourteen about how
we as kids are really attuned to and sensitive to
(08:00):
um our father's levels of acceptance and also rejection. And
one key quote that jumped out to me in the
study discussion was that parental acceptance and rejection may be
perceived as a reflection of the self social worth. Thus,
low acceptance and high rejection by fathers compared to mothers
may carry more negative psychological consequences. Dad's beware interesting well.
(08:26):
Psychologist Peggy Drexler, who's the author of Our Fathers, Ourselves UM,
talks about the fact that many daughters this is a quote,
many daughters idolized their fathers because they don't know them
well enough to see their flaws and therefore desire his approval.
She talks a lot about how stereotypically, uh culturally, the
(08:48):
father's working outside the home more, maybe he travels more
than mom, does maybe mom's home more being the primary caregiver,
and it's that whole like allure of this powerful man
outside the house. And if he's oh if, well, if
he's so powerful and needed out there, then obviously he's
like a big shot. And there's that whole idea that
dad is this sort of other figure. He's a little
(09:09):
bit more distant from us than Mom, who is, you know,
very close in terms of being a caregiver. So we've
got to work harder and try to impress him more.
Although I do have a feeling that narrative is rapidly changing,
and you do have more stay at home dads for instance,
or moms who are the breadwinners, and and dad's in
general just being more invested in childcare, and I think
(09:32):
that would be a good way, for a positive way
for it to be evolving. Um, but if we look
a little more closely to at that father daughter relationship,
not just looking at kids in general, looking now at
dad's and daughters, what kind of dynamics tend to emerge.
So there's also this common refrain that fathers are the
(09:54):
first men whose love girls seek out, and a lot
of us too. You have to keep been mind is
coming from a very heteronormative framework. Um, there's this important
importance of the father figure in terms of you know,
being that that first guy that whose love and affection
girls want to win over is based on the assumption
that you know, in in the future she will be
(10:16):
seeking the love and affection of other men. And so
Dad's thus established our earliest models of what we expect
relationships with men to be like. And then our relationship
attachment styles, which we've talked a lot before on the podcast,
anxious attachment, secure attachment, et cetera. Then flow from there,
(10:37):
thanks or no thanks dead, Yeah, I mean I can
I can totally see how this this goes beyond just
like being a stereotype and something that people assume. I
can totally see how Dad would be a model and
psychologist Jennifer Cronberg basically says, yeah, yeah, basically, that's that's
how that works. She says, in my years of psychology practice,
I've met very few women who didn't unconsciously or consciously
(10:59):
pick a romantic partner based on her dad. Talking about
it's true for whether she a woman dates a man
because he's like her father or because he's nothing like
her dad somehow it's all based one way or another
on her relationship with her father. Yeah, and we actually
did a podcast a while back now called do We
Marry Our Parents? Which if you want, you want to
(11:21):
dig more into this kind of psychology, you can head
over to Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com and
look in our podcast archive, which you can get to
by clicking on the podcast tab and throlling all the
way down and you'll see a button browse all of
our podcasts, and the episode title is do We Marry
Our Parents? But back to dad's and daughters. What daughters
(11:46):
say they want more from their dad's and perhaps to
divert these so called daddy issues, that negative baggage that
we you know, hear about so often in a very
flip kind of way. Um. According to a two thousand
even in contemporary sexuality, what daughters in the in this case,
college aged daughters wanted more from their dads was quote
(12:08):
understanding men, suggesting ways to deal with pressure to have sex,
sharing their own experiences about adolescence, dating insects when they,
as in dads, were adolescents, communicating values, providing more information
on sexual risk topics, and being more open and comfortable
when talking to their daughters, because this entire study was
looking at how dad's talked to their daughters about sex,
(12:33):
and the answer is not very much, because that's uncomfortable.
As a lot of the male psychologists they talked to say, yeah,
it can be uncomfortable if you are a dad to
talk to your daughter about sex, because then it gets
into questions of well, what did you do, dad, and
then having to stay out loud, well, I was young
and horny once, and then the awkward silence that ensues. Right, Yeah,
(12:55):
the whole idea about dad being all like, hey, kiddo
and poling around with you before puberty, and then puberty
hits and suddenly dad feels like he's in an awkward
like just talk to your mother face. Yeah, because I'm
sure for a lot of dad's there's you know, a
line that they want to respect and don't want to cross.
But also to you hear from these these older daughters
(13:17):
saying that they, you know, wish that there had been
more recognition of the fact that, yeah, they were growing
up and that's not a scary thing, and it would
have been nice from that primary model of what men
are like in relationships to have one that's open and
honest and able to talk about things like sex. Yeah,
but to be fair, neither of my parents talked to
(13:39):
me about sex, so that one that one wasn't all
on dad. Yeah, this is true, and I mean my
mom definitely talked to me more about it, and the
messages that I got from my dad about sex for
more in the sense of no, you don't want to
know what happens in a boy's mind, which, for the record, people,
not a good message to give to your daughter. Well, Kristen,
(14:02):
we have a lot more to talk about, but first
we're going to take a quick break and now back
to the show. Speaking of messages that dads are giving
their daughters, what happens when daughters don't have those ideal, strong,
warm relationships with dad. Study looked at stress responses that
(14:27):
women experience and found that those who had reported relationships
with their dad characterized by rejection, chaos, and coercion ended
up having basically higher stress hormone levels, so cortisol levels,
and but before a task that they anticipated to be
stressful and had higher cortisol in response to a problem
(14:48):
discussion with a friend. They were also more likely to
self disclose about psychosocial stressors. Yeah, that disclosure thing is
something that comes up a lot in terms of core.
It's behavioral corelates. For women who have dysfunctional relationships with
their dads, there is a lot more disclosure going on.
And I'm not sure why, but that was just something
(15:09):
that I noticed from the research. Um. But in that
particular instance, the opposite was true. For the women who
you know, had self reported father daughter relationships characterized by warmth, autonomy,
support and structure, they actually on a physiological level, managed
stressful situations better. And Caroline, you know, what is incredible
(15:31):
to me is the fact that this relationship has been
studied down to a physiological level. Did you see any
physiological biological studies about the influence of mother's relationships on
their sons and how they managed stressed Definitely not. There
were just a handful that talked about aggression versus emotional literacy.
It's fascinating when you compare what we what we focus on, uh,
(15:56):
in terms of you know, studies and all that. When
it comes to a risky behavior, risky business comes up
a lot in father daughters studies. There was a two
thousand fourteen study which found that female participants who reported
low psychological presence from their dads were likelier to engage
in risky behavior like drug use and hookups. And there's
(16:19):
also a two thousand six study in the Journal of
Black Psychology which found that girls with involved dads were
less likely to use illegal drugs. And that's a pattern
that comes up over and over and over and over again.
And all of these studies is that you know, absent
or dysfunctional relationships with dads are usually correlated to risk
here behavior, which usually just is a catch all for
(16:42):
drug use, alcohol use, tobacco use, and pre marital sex
and teen pregnancy. Interesting not sliding down a long hallway
within just a button up and socks listening to Bob Seger.
Yes so, And of course this all ties into relationship
habits as all. This is what we talk a lot
about when you think about women with quote unquote daddy issues.
(17:04):
But other studies have shown associations between negative relationships with
dad's and relationship self esteem, overall self disclosure, and overall
self silencing in romantic relationships. And then when it comes
to sex, this is kind of echoing when I just
said a minute ago, there's a two thousand three study
(17:26):
in child development which found that girls with absent fathers
were likelier to become pregnant, and I'm assuming that means
team pregnancy. And other studies have also correlated again, absent
or dysfunctional dads with not just uh, sexual promiscuity, but
lower sexual confidence in daughters, which psychologists would say would
(17:49):
then lead to that quote unquote risky behavior. So there
is a lot of concern echoed over and over again
about will a bad dad lead to essentially a promiscuous daughter. Right,
there's a lot of focus just on that sex behavior
(18:11):
of the daughter, right, and Uh. Catherine Hutchinson and Julie
Cedar bomb in a study looked at women who talked
about their father's kind of encapsulating them and in this
whole daddy's girl role, and found that these according to
these women, in their perspective, their father's inability to see
(18:32):
them as anything but little girls was actually a barrier
to father daughter sexual communication. The father refusing to see
his daughter as either a grown up woman or as
a developing adolescent, refusing to accept it that she's anything
other than daddy's princess. Well, and in that situation too,
I think those those relationships weren't necessarily seen as negative ones.
(18:54):
These were dads who were involved in their daughters lives
and were very present and loving towards their daughters. But
like you said, just crystallize them in this you know,
prepubescent phase and kind of can't move beyond that. I
can't think about sex, doesn't want to talk about sex, noope,
et cetera. Yeah, and so let's talk a little bit
though about daddy issues and daddy's little girls in pop culture,
(19:19):
because that was a large focus of the Mama's Boy
episode because it became so deeply ingrained in mid century
American culture. So what about when it comes to Daddy's girls?
And we'll talk more about that when we come right
back from a quick break. So it's about time we
(19:42):
got around to talking about Freud because we mentioned him
so much in our Mama's Boy episode, and we also
mentioned the whole post World War two period when a
lot of societal fears and anxieties cropped up, not only
around mothers in their children, but also homosexuality and what
(20:02):
that meant as a changing society. Yeah, and there was
just this really intense focus on psychoanalysis and particularly psychoanalysis
through that edible framework kind of the placing perhaps too
much importance and fear on the child's relationship, particularly with
(20:25):
the opposite sex parents and two Lane history professor Rachel
Devlin actually wrote an entire book about this in two
thousand five called Relative Intimacy, Father's Adolescent Daughters and Postwar
American Culture, and she argues in it that the whole
Daddy Issues Daddy's Girls thing was a combination of two forces,
(20:49):
one being the popularity of Freudian psychoanalysis, and then also
the rise of female delinquency because you have in post
World War two America for the very first time, teenage
culture really being this big thing. I mean, even if
you look back at Life magazine at the time, they
have feature stories on like what being a teenager is
(21:11):
because it's this sort of new phase in life and
it has this whole culture and consumer culture around it.
After the war, and with that, you also see the
rise of female delinquency, and you can see it on
screen through classic films such as Rebel Without a Cause.
And there was a fear about these these female delinquents,
(21:32):
these girl gangs, what's going on? Well, blame their dads.
I know, well, it's so funny to see those anxieties
blown up like that. It's just like, oh my god,
you mean women are women, and young girls are developing
their own sort of like personalities outside of the home,
and they're they're becoming teenagers and that is so scary.
She's wearing lipstick. Oh no, what does that mean? Can
(21:52):
you imagine what they would have done if they had
seen spring Breakers clutched their pearls of For sure, Broyd
would have been like, oh, I got a lot to say.
But Devline talks about how during this time, girls perceived
misbehavior was explained as a paternal failing. She says that
girls were seen as being not sufficiently edible connected to
(22:15):
their fathers, and this whole edible framework that Kristen mentioned
was a way to try to control and reintegrate girls
into the family. But what surprised me, considering the way
we talked about Freud on this podcast, what surprised me
is that Freud thought this whole perception was warped. He
himself thought that these urges needed to be overcome, not maintained.
(22:39):
Freud thought that sure, girls and young women have to
go through this pass through this phase of like having
this relationship with their dad, but they the key is
that they have to then pass through it right well.
And one example that she calls out in terms of
maintaining rather than overcoming, was through the use of lipstick.
This is an act cruel thing. She said that it
(23:02):
was thought at the time that girls who were allowed
to wear bright lipstick, which was in vogue with their
father's blessing, would be sexually well developed. Whereas dads who
forbade their daughters to wear lipstick, we're arresting their daughters
sexual development. So yeah, I mean, talk about some loaded lipstick,
(23:24):
interesting band, new band name? Well, I mean because two
in this is in the what fourias and fifties, and
only a few decades prior, wearing wearing rouge on your
lips would have been something only a stage actresses would do.
And you know what stage actresses do? They act and
they and they for in a kate. But she then
(23:45):
ties that to this idea of a new fatherhood that
began emerging in the nineteen twenties. This is when we
slowly see the development of dad's roles starting to change,
gradually becoming more involved and becoming more of an expected
part of the paternal role, not just to go out
and bring home the bacon and be the provider, but
(24:07):
also provide emotional security as well. And when the depression hit,
he had an interesting influence on the father daughter relationship.
And this is coming from the book American Sweethearts Teenage
Girls in twenties Century Popular Culture and Alana Nashy, author
says that the trophy daughter idea thrived in the depression
(24:30):
when the proliferation of sub deb as in debutante images
in popular culture address the perceived crisis of masculinity, suggesting
that Daddy was still a real man and that his
masculinity was not lost entirely in the crisis as long
as he could protect his angelic little girl. So Daddy's
(24:53):
little girl is going to be showered with gifts. He
is going to, you know, buy all these things for
her to protect her and also in the process assert
his own masculinity which is being threatened by this economic
crisis of the Great Depression. That is interesting the layers
on that one. It's probably not the same thing as
when my father a couple of years ago asked if
(25:15):
if I wanted him to take me find China shopping.
I was like, do you really do you think I'm
never gonna get married. You're just gonna step up to
the plate and buy me some some plates. Maybe he
wanted to assert his masculinity or something. Maybe he has
a secret love for ceramics, Caroline, he could I don't know.
I don't know. You know, we don't know everything about
(25:36):
our fathers. This is true. But that's interesting because I mean,
you're talking in a in a time frame of the depression,
or a lot of Nash is talking about a time
frame of the depression. But I mean, now we have
something similar if you look at things like moving on
from debutant's up to the popularity these days of like
purity balls and stuff. Oh yeah, the purity balls being uh,
(26:00):
events that are more typically associated with evangelical Christianity and
the whole virginity pledge thing. There are these events called
purity balls where fathers will escort their daughters to a
prom like event where or and it's sort of a
prom and also a coming out kind of event where
(26:22):
dads will pledge publicly to protect their daughters sexual purity,
and then the daughters sort of pledge themselves to their
dads as well. There's definitely a lot of interaction between
what we've been talking about and that phenomenon. But in
all of this, I mean, you could argue that all
(26:43):
of that sounds pretty weird, but overall, I think there's
a lot more social acceptance for daddy's little girl, daddy's princess,
things like that, even like grown women saying it versus
mama's boy, which is definitely pathologized. Yeah, because what have
we seen in all of this research. There's this, you know,
(27:04):
hammering home over and over again, this idea that if
you have a solid relationship with your dad as a female,
then you are well adjusted, you know, and there it
kind of like can't and and the only way that
it starts to get so close that people start turning
their noses up at it is when it becomes almost
two financially involved, where she becomes the spoiled little princess
(27:27):
rather than just daddy's little girl, but a woman who
is codependent on her father in the same way that
a guy might be codependent on his mother that we
call him a mom's boy. Those are perceived very differently.
It seems like even even today, and speaking of Peggy Drexler,
the author of Our Fathers, Ourselves, and Psychologists. The one
(27:48):
big type of father that she calls out in her
book that she sort of has no patience for is
the dad who really fosters the whole daddy's little girl image.
Not in the sense of like wanting to you have
a close relationship with her, his daughter, but dads who
sort of want to almost over put put their daughters
(28:08):
in a bell jar in a way to protect them
from everything, because she says that it might render them
incapable of self actualizing as adult women, because these dads
want to hold onto them because maybe it's a need
to assert masculinity. Maybe it's a fear, you know, the
of knowing themselves as younger horney men and not wanting
(28:29):
to think about that in the context of their sexually
maturing daughters. Um, but yeah, she's she's not look kindly
upon that. That's funny, Like, I don't, I don't. I
never got the impression that my dad wanted to keep
me his little girl forever. I got the impression more
that he was off to the side, like, uh, she's
growing up and I'm just I'll just be over here.
(28:51):
I don't I can't watch. Not that he was like
super comfortable with me, like dating or anything. It was
more that he's like, I don't want to know. I
don't want to know, don't tell me. But Rachel Devlin,
who we mentioned earlier, also looks at these contemporary father
daughter relationships from an interesting perspective. She says that they're
more commercially oriented, as evidenced by things like MTV show
(29:17):
My Super Sweet Sixteen. Yeah, in case you haven't seen
this reality show, and I don't know that it's still
on the air, it showcases a lavish, over the top
sweet sixteen party for a kid. A lot of times,
it's a girl who is usually pretty spoiled, gets everything
that she wants and usually ends with someone getting a
new car. And it's always interesting in the show too,
(29:41):
or thinking back on the show, it's not like I'm
sitting at I'm still watching it these days, but I
watched it off in my youth to know that every
now and then, the mom always played a larger role
in the show because the dad was off doing whatever,
making these bookoo bucks to pay for this party. And
when he would show up, though, he would always be
(30:02):
the one handing over the keys of the car and
like looking proud as a peacock to be showing off
how well he was providing for his lovely daughter coming
of age. Look at look at what he's doing. It's
that trophy daughter idea, which is, uh, which is really
fascinating to think about. Right, But I mean, I think
(30:23):
what you just said illustrates what Devlin is talking about.
As far as the monetary exchange being used as a
way for fathers to distance themselves from their daughters sexual development, Well, yeah,
because it probably feels more appropriate to make a purchase
to demonstrate your love because, as dad's can probably attest,
(30:46):
when you know, girls start to their daughters start to mature,
all of a sudden, they get boobs. When you hug them,
it feels different than when you hug them as little girls,
and showing them physical affection could get uncomfortable maybe for
them and for their daughters. And so yeah, I could
totally see the consumer side of it being a distancing
(31:07):
factor or a strategy, I should say. But one thing
that we've touched on but haven't really gotten into is
the fact and we we talked about this a little
bit with Mama's Boys, and that they're just different dynamics
going on if it's the same sex couple raising kids
than it is with our stereotypical mother father household that
has been studied to death. Yeah. I mean the thing
(31:28):
for both of these episodes, Mama's Boys and Daddy's Girls
is can goodness, this raises just burnt holes in my brain. Uh,
it's interesting to talk about both of them at this
time when I feel like the role of mother and
father is very much in flux and almost it's starting
to meld together into this broader role of just being
(31:52):
a good parent and it not being so gender specific. Um,
because you know, like you said, there now plenty of
two parent households with kids who are doing perfectly well
where there is neither a father or neither a mother,
depending on which kind of same sex couple it is.
And there was actually an article in The Advocate called
(32:13):
the Lesbian Dad and talking about how there are some
gender nonconforming lesbians who are more comfortable with their kids
calling them dad or a derivative thereof, Like they profiled
one woman who preferred to be called Baba rather than
being called mom or mommy, because particularly with the mommy,
(32:35):
there's just there's just no identification with that label whatsoever.
And I can understand that. I mean, I thinking myself
being called mommy. Nope, well, I mean you know, this
also goes back to an episode that Christen and I
did a while ago on the division of household labor.
Basically that even the most like progressive, forward thinking man
(32:57):
woman feminist couple, even those couples can tend to fall
back to gender norms when it comes to the division
of household labor, whereas if you have same sex couple,
the traditional household duties are more equally distributed. Yeah. And
there was a study among Swedish children and lesbian households
(33:19):
that came out in and it concluded based on interviews
with these kids that they quote described daddy's as the
same as mummies. And that's mummies with you because it's
from Sweden and I really enjoy that. Um So, in
other words, in these kids minds who were being raised
(33:39):
in these lesbian households with very egalitarian setups, the both
parents had sort of similar functions, you know, like daddy's mummy,
mummies daddy and everybody's happy. Yeah. I think we are
at an interesting tipping point socially and culturally as far as,
like you said, people realizing the importance of just being
(34:02):
a good parent, whether you are male or female, whether
your mom or dad or Bobba, whoever you are, and
the importance of you know, being loving and caring to
your child, regardless of what role you feel. Well. And
I also know of some straight couples as well, where
the father tends to engage in more stereotypical maternal activities
(34:28):
with the child and vice versa with the mom. Maybe
the mom is a little more outdoorsy and tends to
have a little more rough and tumble play with the kids.
So I think, if anything, it's a positive sign that
there is more acceptance of how there can be fluidity
in these roles. But when it comes to though, Caroline,
(34:48):
this whole daddy issues thing, can we circle back to
the daddy issues insult it? I don't know, is it
is it a Is it a phrase that we need
to retire? How well i'd like to see it retired.
I mean, you know, it is always such an ugly
insult to say to somebody. Yeah, I mean it's also
used a lot. If you just google around different combinations
(35:11):
with it, it is used a lot in headlines as
a clever turn of phrase to indicate that there there's
some kind of problems somewhere, like, oh this, you know,
this organization has daddy issues or whatever. So I don't know,
I just feel like it's so hackneat and cliche that, um,
(35:32):
maybe maybe we need to move beyond the daddy issues thing.
Or maybe I'm just also tired of it. You know,
everyone's saying that all feminists have daddy issues. Yeah, all right,
let's let's retire it collectively. We'll agree to do it. Okay,
all right, listeners, all right, well, and also listeners, now
we want to hear from you. We want to know
about your own dad daughter relationship, good, bad, non existent,
(35:56):
How has that impacted you? And also what are yours
on the whole daddy's little girl thing daddy issues? Do
you think it should be retired or do you think
that it is useful in some applications? Let us know
all of your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot
com is where you can send us your letters. You
can also tweet us a mom sub podcast and send
(36:18):
us a message on Facebook as well. And we've got
a couple of messages that have nothing to do with
dads to share with you right now, I've gotta let
her here. From Hannah in response to our Women's Wanderlust episode,
she writes, I wanted to mention a few observations I've
made while traveling alone. I made my first alone trip
(36:39):
to India ten years ago at twenty one, and I've
kept going back ever since. And the part of the
observation of hers that I wanted to share with listeners
is this. My biggest problem traveling in India as a
woman has been finding toilets when on long trips through
rural areas. I've had to talk many a bus driver
(37:00):
into keeping the whole bus waiting while I wander off,
usually into some potentially snake infested field, to find a
discreet spot. Women in saries will often just lift their
skirt on the side of the road, and wearing pants
makes it more complicated. The lack of facilities for women
in India is a well known problem, and of course
much more serious for the local women who risk getting
(37:21):
raped when looking for a secluded space. For me, it's
a mere annoyance. Asked for the distinction between traveler and tourists,
I would just say that someone who insists on calling
herself a traveler and not a tourist is just a
very pretentious tourist. And I do think solo travel can
make you a bit self absorbed in the long run.
Whenever I've come across some of those self proclaimed off
(37:43):
the beaten track travelers who've been roaming around for years,
I make a sport out of timing how long it
takes them to ask a single question about anyone else.
I have experienced having hour long conversations in quotes about
the wonderfully intriguing travels of such people without even having
been asked or my name. This turned out, This letter
turned out long, and I could go on and on.
(38:04):
Sorry about that, and thanks for making my early commute
to work enjoyable. Sounds like she's running into some not
so great travelers for tourists. Yeah, so thanks Hannah. Okay,
I have a letter here from Gabby. She says, Hello, ladies. Hello,
I'm a Brazilian actress and have discovered your podcast recently.
(38:26):
Hello welcome. So your podcast on fat bottom Girls was
especially interesting for me. I grew up in a culture
that's really butt centric. That is my own analysis, but
I feel that globalization is changing preferences in Brazil in
front of my own eyes. As in the nineties, most
people would choose butts over breast. In the two thousand's,
(38:47):
globalization had a boom in quote and since then middle
and upper class males have been paying more attention to breasts.
The culture and cult of the bottoms were left to
the lower classes. That can be seen very specially in
the music scene inside Brazil slums. A really popular rhythm
is called funk karaoka that valorizes a cultural vision really
(39:12):
similar to the North American rap. The lyrics and dances
tend to be really sexualized by men and women and
quite focused on the bottoms. So thank you, she signs
it lots of love from Brazil and lots of love
to you Gabby. As a new listener, we appreciate your letter. Yes, indeed,
we appreciate all of your letters. Keep them coming. Mom
(39:32):
Stuff at house stuff works dot com is where you
can send them, or you can always get in touch
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on Facebook and for links to all of our social
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(39:59):
and thousands of other topics. Isn't how Stuff Works dot
com
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline. And this episode is part two, uh
weird Parental Psychology Week because in the last episode we
(00:24):
talked all about the Mama's Boy trope, and today we're
going to talk about daddy's girls and daddy issues, right
because you know, we we started off our Mama's Boy,
which I know you listen to. We started off our
Mom's Boy episode talking about kind of the darker side
of not only being a mom's boy, but what people
(00:46):
assumed about you and what that meant. Hitler, Yeah, We're talked.
We talked a lot about Hitler, a lot about Hitler. Um.
We're not going to talk about Hitler this time that
I know of, Kristen Um, but we are going to
talk about daddy issues because us that is never meant
as a positive thing. No, it's not. And it hadn't
(01:06):
occurred to me until I don't know what I was reading,
but I was on the internet and someone made some
quip about, you know, insulting a woman by calling by
saying that she must have daddy issues and a little
stuff I've never told you. Bell went on off in
my brain, thinking why is that a thing? Why is that?
(01:29):
I mean not not why our daddy issues a thing,
although we will talk about that, but why is that
this pop cultural knee jerk insult directed at women and
a lot directed at feminists. Now, for our international listeners
who might not be so familiar with this term, daddy issues,
for a little bit of a very casual definition of
(01:49):
what it is. According to the Urban Dictionary, it's whenever
a female has a screwed up, for the podcast relationship
with her father or absence of a father figure during
her childhood, so it tends to spill into any adult
relationship they embark on, usually to the chagrin of any
poor male in her life. So stereotypically, women with daddy
issues are needy, obsessive, dramatic, insecure and looking for love
(02:13):
and all the wrong places. Well that'll be in my
head for the rest of the day. Um. But it's
also tacked onto women and girls who are specifically attracted
to older men, and just people assume that something's got
to be wrong with you if you're attracted to somebody
who's even a little bit older. Yeah, you must be
secretly wanting to have sex with your father. And then
(02:35):
there's a whole idea that vocal feminists must certainly have
toxic relationships or Harbard hatred toward their dad's because why
else would they have and expressed distaste with a patriarchal
status quo feminists be heaven daddy issues that that is
one of the most like just the hallmark of a
(02:56):
trollish criticism that you will get on the internet if
you talk about gender equality long enough. Not that it's
ever happened to me. And for the record, I love
my dad. I have a perfectly healthy relationship with him.
But why am I even having to defend that? I
don't know, Kristen, I don't know, because we're about to
talk about why that's so good that you have a
(03:17):
relationship with your dad. Yeah. So there is a whole
bunch of research on the dynamics and effects and impacts
of the father daughter relationship. I would say even more
so comparing it to what we read about for our
Mama's Boy episode. It seems like this father daughter relationship
(03:40):
has been put even more so under the academic microscope
than the mother's son relationship. Yeah, Whereas it seems like
a lot of the mama's boy research, you know, if
there was any academic psychological research, was all really early,
and it was all super negative and awful, and it
was all sort of justifying why being a mama's boy
(04:01):
is so terrible. It was very homophobic, very homophobic. Whereas
the studies into being a daddy's girl or having quote
daddy issues or whatever, it's much more um encouraging of
that relationship, Yeah, encouraging if you have an active paternal presence,
it's very pro dad being involved with her daughter. Whereas
(04:23):
on the flip side, there's a lot of panic where
if you have a negative relationship or non existent relationship
with a father figure, then you will have a lot
of premarital sex, which we will get into more. There's
a lot of sex panic surrounding this whole daddy issues
and daddy's girl things. So there was a two thousand
(04:43):
fourteen study published in the Men's Studies Press called Father's
in the Dorm Room The Unique Influence of Fathers and
Mothers on Young Adult Functioning, And it was really fascinating
because it wasn't so much focused on the father daughter relationship,
but rather just the paternal influence on kids, sons and
(05:04):
daughters alike, and how they developed psychologically, their self esteem,
rates of depression, and previous studies cited in this two
thousand fourteen study note how dad's in particular have a
very strong influence, even stronger some would say, than moms
(05:25):
on young kids. Yeah, so they cited a twelve study,
for instance, that found that father's acceptance might correlate stronger
to children's psychological adjustment versus mother's acceptance. And similarly, a
two thousand eight study found that a father's indifference was
more related to children's scores on measures of depression. And
(05:48):
a two thousand to study looked at father's sensitivity during
toddler play and tied it to predicted attachment representations and
adolescents versus the mothers and influence. So all of these
studies are pointing to dad having a super strong influence
on all all number of things. Yeah, and this isn't
just within American culture. A lot of these study findings
(06:09):
do apply across culturally as well. And in this study,
sample the kids that they looked at for the father's
in the dorm room, which is such a creepy image study,
they found that father's acceptance was substantially more variable than
mother's acceptance levels. And this is a theme that you
(06:30):
see come up a lot when it comes to the
father daughter relationship. This idea that we sometimes as children
take our mother's love for granted, whereas a father's love
and acceptance of us. I think that acceptance party is
really important, is something that we feel like we have
to earn. Yeah. And so I had like like a real,
(06:53):
like real talk moment with myself when I was reading
these studies in the yeah, real talking, real talking to
my of like, hey, you you're all right, You're right,
But no, I I can feel this, uh from my
own experience because my mother I'm an only raised an
only child, uh, and my mother was like we were
super close. I was more of a mama's girl than
(07:16):
a daddy's girl. Even though my dad and I were
always close and had a good relationship, but it always
felt like, oh, well, I'm always perfect in my mother's eyes,
Like she's always going to think I'm perfect, and then
I'm the prettiest and the best and the smartest, um,
whereas my dad is a little more on the stoic side.
And so It's like I knew he was proud of me,
(07:37):
but I really felt like I had to work harder
to earn that pride and that acceptance and that attention.
I can completely empathize with it. And and that seems
too like a common theme that you see in in
this studying fact from two thousand and fourteen about how
we as kids are really attuned to and sensitive to
(08:00):
um our father's levels of acceptance and also rejection. And
one key quote that jumped out to me in the
study discussion was that parental acceptance and rejection may be
perceived as a reflection of the self social worth. Thus,
low acceptance and high rejection by fathers compared to mothers
may carry more negative psychological consequences. Dad's beware interesting well.
(08:26):
Psychologist Peggy Drexler, who's the author of Our Fathers, Ourselves UM,
talks about the fact that many daughters this is a quote,
many daughters idolized their fathers because they don't know them
well enough to see their flaws and therefore desire his approval.
She talks a lot about how stereotypically, uh culturally, the
(08:48):
father's working outside the home more, maybe he travels more
than mom, does maybe mom's home more being the primary caregiver,
and it's that whole like allure of this powerful man
outside the house. And if he's oh if, well, if
he's so powerful and needed out there, then obviously he's
like a big shot. And there's that whole idea that
dad is this sort of other figure. He's a little
(09:09):
bit more distant from us than Mom, who is, you know,
very close in terms of being a caregiver. So we've
got to work harder and try to impress him more.
Although I do have a feeling that narrative is rapidly changing,
and you do have more stay at home dads for instance,
or moms who are the breadwinners, and and dad's in
general just being more invested in childcare, and I think
(09:32):
that would be a good way, for a positive way
for it to be evolving. Um, but if we look
a little more closely to at that father daughter relationship,
not just looking at kids in general, looking now at
dad's and daughters, what kind of dynamics tend to emerge.
So there's also this common refrain that fathers are the
(09:54):
first men whose love girls seek out, and a lot
of us too. You have to keep been mind is
coming from a very heteronormative framework. Um, there's this important
importance of the father figure in terms of you know,
being that that first guy that whose love and affection
girls want to win over is based on the assumption
that you know, in in the future she will be
(10:16):
seeking the love and affection of other men. And so
Dad's thus established our earliest models of what we expect
relationships with men to be like. And then our relationship
attachment styles, which we've talked a lot before on the podcast,
anxious attachment, secure attachment, et cetera. Then flow from there,
(10:37):
thanks or no thanks dead, Yeah, I mean I can
I can totally see how this this goes beyond just
like being a stereotype and something that people assume. I
can totally see how Dad would be a model and
psychologist Jennifer Cronberg basically says, yeah, yeah, basically, that's that's
how that works. She says, in my years of psychology practice,
I've met very few women who didn't unconsciously or consciously
(10:59):
pick a romantic partner based on her dad. Talking about
it's true for whether she a woman dates a man
because he's like her father or because he's nothing like
her dad somehow it's all based one way or another
on her relationship with her father. Yeah, and we actually
did a podcast a while back now called do We
Marry Our Parents? Which if you want, you want to
(11:21):
dig more into this kind of psychology, you can head
over to Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com and
look in our podcast archive, which you can get to
by clicking on the podcast tab and throlling all the
way down and you'll see a button browse all of
our podcasts, and the episode title is do We Marry
Our Parents? But back to dad's and daughters. What daughters
(11:46):
say they want more from their dad's and perhaps to
divert these so called daddy issues, that negative baggage that
we you know, hear about so often in a very
flip kind of way. Um. According to a two thousand
even in contemporary sexuality, what daughters in the in this case,
college aged daughters wanted more from their dads was quote
(12:08):
understanding men, suggesting ways to deal with pressure to have sex,
sharing their own experiences about adolescence, dating insects when they,
as in dads, were adolescents, communicating values, providing more information
on sexual risk topics, and being more open and comfortable
when talking to their daughters, because this entire study was
looking at how dad's talked to their daughters about sex,
(12:33):
and the answer is not very much, because that's uncomfortable.
As a lot of the male psychologists they talked to say, yeah,
it can be uncomfortable if you are a dad to
talk to your daughter about sex, because then it gets
into questions of well, what did you do, dad, and
then having to stay out loud, well, I was young
and horny once, and then the awkward silence that ensues. Right, Yeah,
(12:55):
the whole idea about dad being all like, hey, kiddo
and poling around with you before puberty, and then puberty
hits and suddenly dad feels like he's in an awkward
like just talk to your mother face. Yeah, because I'm
sure for a lot of dad's there's you know, a
line that they want to respect and don't want to cross.
But also to you hear from these these older daughters
(13:17):
saying that they, you know, wish that there had been
more recognition of the fact that, yeah, they were growing
up and that's not a scary thing, and it would
have been nice from that primary model of what men
are like in relationships to have one that's open and
honest and able to talk about things like sex. Yeah,
but to be fair, neither of my parents talked to
(13:39):
me about sex, so that one that one wasn't all
on dad. Yeah, this is true, and I mean my
mom definitely talked to me more about it, and the
messages that I got from my dad about sex for
more in the sense of no, you don't want to
know what happens in a boy's mind, which, for the record, people,
not a good message to give to your daughter. Well, Kristen,
(14:02):
we have a lot more to talk about, but first
we're going to take a quick break and now back
to the show. Speaking of messages that dads are giving
their daughters, what happens when daughters don't have those ideal, strong,
warm relationships with dad. Study looked at stress responses that
(14:27):
women experience and found that those who had reported relationships
with their dad characterized by rejection, chaos, and coercion ended
up having basically higher stress hormone levels, so cortisol levels,
and but before a task that they anticipated to be
stressful and had higher cortisol in response to a problem
(14:48):
discussion with a friend. They were also more likely to
self disclose about psychosocial stressors. Yeah, that disclosure thing is
something that comes up a lot in terms of core.
It's behavioral corelates. For women who have dysfunctional relationships with
their dads, there is a lot more disclosure going on.
And I'm not sure why, but that was just something
(15:09):
that I noticed from the research. Um. But in that
particular instance, the opposite was true. For the women who
you know, had self reported father daughter relationships characterized by warmth, autonomy,
support and structure, they actually on a physiological level, managed
stressful situations better. And Caroline, you know, what is incredible
(15:31):
to me is the fact that this relationship has been
studied down to a physiological level. Did you see any
physiological biological studies about the influence of mother's relationships on
their sons and how they managed stressed Definitely not. There
were just a handful that talked about aggression versus emotional literacy.
It's fascinating when you compare what we what we focus on, uh,
(15:56):
in terms of you know, studies and all that. When
it comes to a risky behavior, risky business comes up
a lot in father daughters studies. There was a two
thousand fourteen study which found that female participants who reported
low psychological presence from their dads were likelier to engage
in risky behavior like drug use and hookups. And there's
(16:19):
also a two thousand six study in the Journal of
Black Psychology which found that girls with involved dads were
less likely to use illegal drugs. And that's a pattern
that comes up over and over and over and over again.
And all of these studies is that you know, absent
or dysfunctional relationships with dads are usually correlated to risk
here behavior, which usually just is a catch all for
(16:42):
drug use, alcohol use, tobacco use, and pre marital sex
and teen pregnancy. Interesting not sliding down a long hallway
within just a button up and socks listening to Bob Seger.
Yes so, And of course this all ties into relationship
habits as all. This is what we talk a lot
about when you think about women with quote unquote daddy issues.
(17:04):
But other studies have shown associations between negative relationships with
dad's and relationship self esteem, overall self disclosure, and overall
self silencing in romantic relationships. And then when it comes
to sex, this is kind of echoing when I just
said a minute ago, there's a two thousand three study
(17:26):
in child development which found that girls with absent fathers
were likelier to become pregnant, and I'm assuming that means
team pregnancy. And other studies have also correlated again, absent
or dysfunctional dads with not just uh, sexual promiscuity, but
lower sexual confidence in daughters, which psychologists would say would
(17:49):
then lead to that quote unquote risky behavior. So there
is a lot of concern echoed over and over again
about will a bad dad lead to essentially a promiscuous daughter. Right,
there's a lot of focus just on that sex behavior
(18:11):
of the daughter, right, and Uh. Catherine Hutchinson and Julie
Cedar bomb in a study looked at women who talked
about their father's kind of encapsulating them and in this
whole daddy's girl role, and found that these according to
these women, in their perspective, their father's inability to see
(18:32):
them as anything but little girls was actually a barrier
to father daughter sexual communication. The father refusing to see
his daughter as either a grown up woman or as
a developing adolescent, refusing to accept it that she's anything
other than daddy's princess. Well, and in that situation too,
I think those those relationships weren't necessarily seen as negative ones.
(18:54):
These were dads who were involved in their daughters lives
and were very present and loving towards their daughters. But
like you said, just crystallize them in this you know,
prepubescent phase and kind of can't move beyond that. I
can't think about sex, doesn't want to talk about sex, noope,
et cetera. Yeah, and so let's talk a little bit
though about daddy issues and daddy's little girls in pop culture,
(19:19):
because that was a large focus of the Mama's Boy
episode because it became so deeply ingrained in mid century
American culture. So what about when it comes to Daddy's girls?
And we'll talk more about that when we come right
back from a quick break. So it's about time we
(19:42):
got around to talking about Freud because we mentioned him
so much in our Mama's Boy episode, and we also
mentioned the whole post World War two period when a
lot of societal fears and anxieties cropped up, not only
around mothers in their children, but also homosexuality and what
(20:02):
that meant as a changing society. Yeah, and there was
just this really intense focus on psychoanalysis and particularly psychoanalysis
through that edible framework kind of the placing perhaps too
much importance and fear on the child's relationship, particularly with
(20:25):
the opposite sex parents and two Lane history professor Rachel
Devlin actually wrote an entire book about this in two
thousand five called Relative Intimacy, Father's Adolescent Daughters and Postwar
American Culture, and she argues in it that the whole
Daddy Issues Daddy's Girls thing was a combination of two forces,
(20:49):
one being the popularity of Freudian psychoanalysis, and then also
the rise of female delinquency because you have in post
World War two America for the very first time, teenage
culture really being this big thing. I mean, even if
you look back at Life magazine at the time, they
have feature stories on like what being a teenager is
(21:11):
because it's this sort of new phase in life and
it has this whole culture and consumer culture around it.
After the war, and with that, you also see the
rise of female delinquency, and you can see it on
screen through classic films such as Rebel Without a Cause.
And there was a fear about these these female delinquents,
(21:32):
these girl gangs, what's going on? Well, blame their dads.
I know, well, it's so funny to see those anxieties
blown up like that. It's just like, oh my god,
you mean women are women, and young girls are developing
their own sort of like personalities outside of the home,
and they're they're becoming teenagers and that is so scary.
She's wearing lipstick. Oh no, what does that mean? Can
(21:52):
you imagine what they would have done if they had
seen spring Breakers clutched their pearls of For sure, Broyd
would have been like, oh, I got a lot to say.
But Devline talks about how during this time, girls perceived
misbehavior was explained as a paternal failing. She says that
girls were seen as being not sufficiently edible connected to
(22:15):
their fathers, and this whole edible framework that Kristen mentioned
was a way to try to control and reintegrate girls
into the family. But what surprised me, considering the way
we talked about Freud on this podcast, what surprised me
is that Freud thought this whole perception was warped. He
himself thought that these urges needed to be overcome, not maintained.
(22:39):
Freud thought that sure, girls and young women have to
go through this pass through this phase of like having
this relationship with their dad, but they the key is
that they have to then pass through it right well.
And one example that she calls out in terms of
maintaining rather than overcoming, was through the use of lipstick.
This is an act cruel thing. She said that it
(23:02):
was thought at the time that girls who were allowed
to wear bright lipstick, which was in vogue with their
father's blessing, would be sexually well developed. Whereas dads who
forbade their daughters to wear lipstick, we're arresting their daughters
sexual development. So yeah, I mean, talk about some loaded lipstick,
(23:24):
interesting band, new band name? Well, I mean because two
in this is in the what fourias and fifties, and
only a few decades prior, wearing wearing rouge on your
lips would have been something only a stage actresses would do.
And you know what stage actresses do? They act and
they and they for in a kate. But she then
(23:45):
ties that to this idea of a new fatherhood that
began emerging in the nineteen twenties. This is when we
slowly see the development of dad's roles starting to change,
gradually becoming more involved and becoming more of an expected
part of the paternal role, not just to go out
and bring home the bacon and be the provider, but
(24:07):
also provide emotional security as well. And when the depression hit,
he had an interesting influence on the father daughter relationship.
And this is coming from the book American Sweethearts Teenage
Girls in twenties Century Popular Culture and Alana Nashy, author
says that the trophy daughter idea thrived in the depression
(24:30):
when the proliferation of sub deb as in debutante images
in popular culture address the perceived crisis of masculinity, suggesting
that Daddy was still a real man and that his
masculinity was not lost entirely in the crisis as long
as he could protect his angelic little girl. So Daddy's
(24:53):
little girl is going to be showered with gifts. He
is going to, you know, buy all these things for
her to protect her and also in the process assert
his own masculinity which is being threatened by this economic
crisis of the Great Depression. That is interesting the layers
on that one. It's probably not the same thing as
when my father a couple of years ago asked if
(25:15):
if I wanted him to take me find China shopping.
I was like, do you really do you think I'm
never gonna get married. You're just gonna step up to
the plate and buy me some some plates. Maybe he
wanted to assert his masculinity or something. Maybe he has
a secret love for ceramics, Caroline, he could I don't know.
I don't know. You know, we don't know everything about
(25:36):
our fathers. This is true. But that's interesting because I mean,
you're talking in a in a time frame of the depression,
or a lot of Nash is talking about a time
frame of the depression. But I mean, now we have
something similar if you look at things like moving on
from debutant's up to the popularity these days of like
purity balls and stuff. Oh yeah, the purity balls being uh,
(26:00):
events that are more typically associated with evangelical Christianity and
the whole virginity pledge thing. There are these events called
purity balls where fathers will escort their daughters to a
prom like event where or and it's sort of a
prom and also a coming out kind of event where
(26:22):
dads will pledge publicly to protect their daughters sexual purity,
and then the daughters sort of pledge themselves to their
dads as well. There's definitely a lot of interaction between
what we've been talking about and that phenomenon. But in
all of this, I mean, you could argue that all
(26:43):
of that sounds pretty weird, but overall, I think there's
a lot more social acceptance for daddy's little girl, daddy's princess,
things like that, even like grown women saying it versus
mama's boy, which is definitely pathologized. Yeah, because what have
we seen in all of this research. There's this, you know,
(27:04):
hammering home over and over again, this idea that if
you have a solid relationship with your dad as a female,
then you are well adjusted, you know, and there it
kind of like can't and and the only way that
it starts to get so close that people start turning
their noses up at it is when it becomes almost
two financially involved, where she becomes the spoiled little princess
(27:27):
rather than just daddy's little girl, but a woman who
is codependent on her father in the same way that
a guy might be codependent on his mother that we
call him a mom's boy. Those are perceived very differently.
It seems like even even today, and speaking of Peggy Drexler,
the author of Our Fathers, Ourselves, and Psychologists. The one
(27:48):
big type of father that she calls out in her
book that she sort of has no patience for is
the dad who really fosters the whole daddy's little girl image.
Not in the sense of like wanting to you have
a close relationship with her, his daughter, but dads who
sort of want to almost over put put their daughters
(28:08):
in a bell jar in a way to protect them
from everything, because she says that it might render them
incapable of self actualizing as adult women, because these dads
want to hold onto them because maybe it's a need
to assert masculinity. Maybe it's a fear, you know, the
of knowing themselves as younger horney men and not wanting
(28:29):
to think about that in the context of their sexually
maturing daughters. Um, but yeah, she's she's not look kindly
upon that. That's funny, Like, I don't, I don't. I
never got the impression that my dad wanted to keep
me his little girl forever. I got the impression more
that he was off to the side, like, uh, she's
growing up and I'm just I'll just be over here.
(28:51):
I don't I can't watch. Not that he was like
super comfortable with me, like dating or anything. It was
more that he's like, I don't want to know. I
don't want to know, don't tell me. But Rachel Devlin,
who we mentioned earlier, also looks at these contemporary father
daughter relationships from an interesting perspective. She says that they're
more commercially oriented, as evidenced by things like MTV show
(29:17):
My Super Sweet Sixteen. Yeah, in case you haven't seen
this reality show, and I don't know that it's still
on the air, it showcases a lavish, over the top
sweet sixteen party for a kid. A lot of times,
it's a girl who is usually pretty spoiled, gets everything
that she wants and usually ends with someone getting a
new car. And it's always interesting in the show too,
(29:41):
or thinking back on the show, it's not like I'm
sitting at I'm still watching it these days, but I
watched it off in my youth to know that every
now and then, the mom always played a larger role
in the show because the dad was off doing whatever,
making these bookoo bucks to pay for this party. And
when he would show up, though, he would always be
(30:02):
the one handing over the keys of the car and
like looking proud as a peacock to be showing off
how well he was providing for his lovely daughter coming
of age. Look at look at what he's doing. It's
that trophy daughter idea, which is, uh, which is really
fascinating to think about. Right, But I mean, I think
(30:23):
what you just said illustrates what Devlin is talking about.
As far as the monetary exchange being used as a
way for fathers to distance themselves from their daughters sexual development, Well, yeah,
because it probably feels more appropriate to make a purchase
to demonstrate your love because, as dad's can probably attest,
(30:46):
when you know, girls start to their daughters start to mature,
all of a sudden, they get boobs. When you hug them,
it feels different than when you hug them as little girls,
and showing them physical affection could get uncomfortable maybe for
them and for their daughters. And so yeah, I could
totally see the consumer side of it being a distancing
(31:07):
factor or a strategy, I should say. But one thing
that we've touched on but haven't really gotten into is
the fact and we we talked about this a little
bit with Mama's Boys, and that they're just different dynamics
going on if it's the same sex couple raising kids
than it is with our stereotypical mother father household that
has been studied to death. Yeah. I mean the thing
(31:28):
for both of these episodes, Mama's Boys and Daddy's Girls
is can goodness, this raises just burnt holes in my brain. Uh,
it's interesting to talk about both of them at this
time when I feel like the role of mother and
father is very much in flux and almost it's starting
to meld together into this broader role of just being
(31:52):
a good parent and it not being so gender specific. Um,
because you know, like you said, there now plenty of
two parent households with kids who are doing perfectly well
where there is neither a father or neither a mother,
depending on which kind of same sex couple it is.
And there was actually an article in The Advocate called
(32:13):
the Lesbian Dad and talking about how there are some
gender nonconforming lesbians who are more comfortable with their kids
calling them dad or a derivative thereof, Like they profiled
one woman who preferred to be called Baba rather than
being called mom or mommy, because particularly with the mommy,
(32:35):
there's just there's just no identification with that label whatsoever.
And I can understand that. I mean, I thinking myself
being called mommy. Nope, well, I mean you know, this
also goes back to an episode that Christen and I
did a while ago on the division of household labor.
Basically that even the most like progressive, forward thinking man
(32:57):
woman feminist couple, even those couples can tend to fall
back to gender norms when it comes to the division
of household labor, whereas if you have same sex couple,
the traditional household duties are more equally distributed. Yeah. And
there was a study among Swedish children and lesbian households
(33:19):
that came out in and it concluded based on interviews
with these kids that they quote described daddy's as the
same as mummies. And that's mummies with you because it's
from Sweden and I really enjoy that. Um So, in
other words, in these kids minds who were being raised
(33:39):
in these lesbian households with very egalitarian setups, the both
parents had sort of similar functions, you know, like daddy's mummy,
mummies daddy and everybody's happy. Yeah. I think we are
at an interesting tipping point socially and culturally as far as,
like you said, people realizing the importance of just being
(34:02):
a good parent, whether you are male or female, whether
your mom or dad or Bobba, whoever you are, and
the importance of you know, being loving and caring to
your child, regardless of what role you feel. Well. And
I also know of some straight couples as well, where
the father tends to engage in more stereotypical maternal activities
(34:28):
with the child and vice versa with the mom. Maybe
the mom is a little more outdoorsy and tends to
have a little more rough and tumble play with the kids.
So I think, if anything, it's a positive sign that
there is more acceptance of how there can be fluidity
in these roles. But when it comes to though, Caroline,
(34:48):
this whole daddy issues thing, can we circle back to
the daddy issues insult it? I don't know, is it
is it a Is it a phrase that we need
to retire? How well i'd like to see it retired.
I mean, you know, it is always such an ugly
insult to say to somebody. Yeah, I mean it's also
used a lot. If you just google around different combinations
(35:11):
with it, it is used a lot in headlines as
a clever turn of phrase to indicate that there there's
some kind of problems somewhere, like, oh this, you know,
this organization has daddy issues or whatever. So I don't know,
I just feel like it's so hackneat and cliche that, um,
(35:32):
maybe maybe we need to move beyond the daddy issues thing.
Or maybe I'm just also tired of it. You know,
everyone's saying that all feminists have daddy issues. Yeah, all right,
let's let's retire it collectively. We'll agree to do it. Okay,
all right, listeners, all right, well, and also listeners, now
we want to hear from you. We want to know
about your own dad daughter relationship, good, bad, non existent,
(35:56):
How has that impacted you? And also what are yours
on the whole daddy's little girl thing daddy issues? Do
you think it should be retired or do you think
that it is useful in some applications? Let us know
all of your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot
com is where you can send us your letters. You
can also tweet us a mom sub podcast and send
(36:18):
us a message on Facebook as well. And we've got
a couple of messages that have nothing to do with
dads to share with you right now, I've gotta let
her here. From Hannah in response to our Women's Wanderlust episode,
she writes, I wanted to mention a few observations I've
made while traveling alone. I made my first alone trip
(36:39):
to India ten years ago at twenty one, and I've
kept going back ever since. And the part of the
observation of hers that I wanted to share with listeners
is this. My biggest problem traveling in India as a
woman has been finding toilets when on long trips through
rural areas. I've had to talk many a bus driver
(37:00):
into keeping the whole bus waiting while I wander off,
usually into some potentially snake infested field, to find a
discreet spot. Women in saries will often just lift their
skirt on the side of the road, and wearing pants
makes it more complicated. The lack of facilities for women
in India is a well known problem, and of course
much more serious for the local women who risk getting
(37:21):
raped when looking for a secluded space. For me, it's
a mere annoyance. Asked for the distinction between traveler and tourists,
I would just say that someone who insists on calling
herself a traveler and not a tourist is just a
very pretentious tourist. And I do think solo travel can
make you a bit self absorbed in the long run.
Whenever I've come across some of those self proclaimed off
(37:43):
the beaten track travelers who've been roaming around for years,
I make a sport out of timing how long it
takes them to ask a single question about anyone else.
I have experienced having hour long conversations in quotes about
the wonderfully intriguing travels of such people without even having
been asked or my name. This turned out, This letter
turned out long, and I could go on and on.
(38:04):
Sorry about that, and thanks for making my early commute
to work enjoyable. Sounds like she's running into some not
so great travelers for tourists. Yeah, so thanks Hannah. Okay,
I have a letter here from Gabby. She says, Hello, ladies. Hello,
I'm a Brazilian actress and have discovered your podcast recently.
(38:26):
Hello welcome. So your podcast on fat bottom Girls was
especially interesting for me. I grew up in a culture
that's really butt centric. That is my own analysis, but
I feel that globalization is changing preferences in Brazil in
front of my own eyes. As in the nineties, most
people would choose butts over breast. In the two thousand's,
(38:47):
globalization had a boom in quote and since then middle
and upper class males have been paying more attention to breasts.
The culture and cult of the bottoms were left to
the lower classes. That can be seen very specially in
the music scene inside Brazil slums. A really popular rhythm
is called funk karaoka that valorizes a cultural vision really
(39:12):
similar to the North American rap. The lyrics and dances
tend to be really sexualized by men and women and
quite focused on the bottoms. So thank you, she signs
it lots of love from Brazil and lots of love
to you Gabby. As a new listener, we appreciate your letter. Yes, indeed,
we appreciate all of your letters. Keep them coming. Mom
(39:32):
Stuff at house stuff works dot com is where you
can send them, or you can always get in touch
by tweeting us a mom stuff podcast or messaging us
on Facebook and for links to all of our social
media's as well as all of our bolog post videos
and podcasts, including this one. Which also includes our sources
so you can follow along. Head on over to stuff
Mom Never told You dot com for more on this
(39:59):
and thousands of other topics. Isn't how Stuff Works dot
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