March 20, 2020 • 45 mins
The hosts of the podcast The Limit Does Not Exist stop by to talk the many firsts and lasting legacy of Amazing Grace herself, Admiral Grace Hopper.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I've never told your production of I Heart Radio Today.
We are really excited to be joined by the host
of the podcast The Limit Does Not Exist, a show
(00:25):
that digs into what the host describe as human even diagrams.
Thank you both so much for being here. We're so
happy to be here. Can you introduce yourselves and describe
your show a bit more in depth words? Please? Yes. So,
I'm Kay and I'm Christina and Annie. You said it right.
(00:46):
Our podcast is a show for human ven diagrams, and
that's really our term for people who have multiple interests
that often feel like they might not go together. And
we're so fascinated by the intersections of those interests. We
believe when it comes to pursuing your passions, you shouldn't
have to choose. We are a fan of The End
(01:09):
over the Ore exactly. Both of us kind of have
these zigzag paths with um. As Kate said, unexpected intersections.
For me, it was math and theater. For Kate, she's
got filmmaking, directing, producing all of that world, plus a
lot of math and UH and helping girls get super
(01:30):
psyched by math. And we thought, well, if we love
all these things, there's probably a lot of other people
like that too. So that's what our show is about.
That's right. It really began as the intersection of STEM science, technology,
engineering and math and the arts, and since then, over
a hundred plus episodes later, it's really evolved into the
identity of work and how do you make sense of
(01:53):
what you love and how do you hopefully build a
really sustainable, custom built career out of that. So that's us.
We're so happy to be here. We're happy. Yeah, I'm
really passionate about girls and women and sim as well.
I've told this story several times on the show that
when I was in elementary school, I used to ask
(02:15):
for extra homework in math and science and told Peter
told me that no boy would ever want to date me. Yeah, yeah,
did you report her? I didn't, But I dropped out.
I was in calculus. This was in high school. I
was in calculus and I dropped out. And it's one
of my biggest regrets. Yeah, that was a crime against education.
(02:39):
And I am angry on your behalf, I know. And
I used to take so I went to m Georgia Tech,
which is really big STEM school, and I would take
physics classes like on the d L like I didn't
want people to know about it or something. And now
it makes me so angry. Right yeah, shadow happy boys
(03:01):
never liked me in school because then that wasn't a
consideration and I could just be the know it all
three ahead in math class and like I didn't care. Yes,
I mean I was one of two women in my
calculus class, a class there was there were a lot
of guys in there and this wasn't long ago. Yeah, yeah,
my gosh. So when we were discussing what we were
(03:24):
going to talk about, I was very so excited because
this is um A, We're doing a female first and
we're doing it on one of my heroes, Grace Hopper. Yes, absolutely,
I mean Grace Hopper. We like to call her Admiral Hopper.
We want to give her the rank that she earned.
(03:46):
She admiral. Yeah, she actually had a lot of firsts. Yes,
she did a hundred percent. She was the first woman
to ever earn a PhD in mathematics from Yale. You
know she was. She was so one of the first
ever computer programmers, and she invented the first compiler, which
we will explain She was integral to the invention of
(04:11):
a computer programming language that no small fee is still
used today, and when you think about how far we've
come technologically, it's really impressive. Yeah, she was called amazing
Grace by her subordinates, and I can see why. So
we are psyched to share her. We actually call her
the patron saint of our podcast. We have Our whole
(04:34):
first episode was about her and a fantastic book we
found on her history, and there's so much of her
life in her background that is consistent with this idea
of interdisciplinary work and kind of pulling in unexpected interests
that that we thought we had to share her with you, right. Actually,
our first our first social media handle was at Admiral
(04:57):
Hopper quite some time, about three and a half years.
People would, yeah, people would like tag us in comments
about her, and we're like, oh, we appreciate the shout out,
but like, we're not actually Admiral Hopper. Just to clarify
that if we were to be mistaken for anybody, yeah,
we'd be okay with that. We'd be okay with that.
(05:19):
I mean, so here's the deal. Grace Hopper was the
like one of the pioneers of the computing history, and
her impact spanned like four decades and counting, like she
was pretty impressive. That's right, Yeah, she's she's still going
and I like to think we'll go on forever. So Christina,
(05:41):
I think let's start with the compiler, which is the
first computer jargoning word that we just oh yeah for sure. Okay,
so what's the pilots one? That's right, So, a compiler
allows computer code to be written in a programming language,
written in actual words rather than machine language, which can
(06:04):
be kind of the zeros and ones. So if you
think about bits and bytes, um, it can also be
just like really complicated, uh kind of terms that the
computer will understand, but is super clunky and makes it
it's not just like you're writing in a foreign language.
You're you're literally trying to speak machine. So it makes
it really hard to pick up programming if the bar
(06:27):
was you have to write in machine language, right exactly.
What what's so cool about that and impactful is that
the ability to have computer code be written in a
programming language makes it more accessible to more people. So
if you can just learn that programming language, you don't
have to turn your brain into a machine. You can
(06:50):
you can write the code, that's right. And so Greece
Hopper was super against this idea of the high priest
genius ethos that I only special people can write code.
She's kind of like, yeah, I mean, I actually think
that anyone can learn how to write code. It's a
way of thinking and a language. And by insisting on
(07:13):
kind of moving us toward writing code in English and
use it a compiler to translate it for the machine,
it democratized access to computers. Like this is a big deal.
This is we're not talking like ten years ago, we're
talking back in like the fifties. This was a foundational
concept to the beginning of computer programming that she believed
(07:35):
anyone could learn. Yeah, so she really was this champion
for inclusion, this idea that everyone could learn how to
use a computer and could learn a language around it.
And you know, it's so significant to even thinking about
the story that you just told Annie, because there's continues
to be the sort of proliferation right in math and
(07:56):
stum fields where it's like there is one way to
do it and you don't understand that way, Too bad
for you, right, And so Adderal Hopper was really saying no, no, no,
it's a language that's learnable and you can learn it,
and I'm gonna invent this thing that's gonna make that
really possible. Absolutely. So I also think Christina that we
should know that at the time that the compiler was
(08:17):
invented by Hopper, this was like the late nineteen forties
and early nine and fifties, so computers took up entire rooms, right,
Like we've all seen hidden figures and the Harvard Mark
one computer of which Hopper became one of the first programmers.
Just some data on that. It was fifty one ft long,
(08:38):
eight feet tall, and two feet deep, so if you're
doing some quick, quick mental math, that's eight hundred and
sixteen cubic feet. It was just like daunting to even
look at right, like it was already very sort of
like how do I touch that? Like how I learned
how to do that? But it also weighed like ten
(09:00):
tho pounds. This is a pretty gigantic not gonna put
it in your laptop bag. So okay, back to the compiler, which,
to recap Hopper invented the compiler to allow computer code
to be written in accessible programming language. So there were
(09:21):
several other It's important to note rudimentary programming languages being
developed at the time. But here's the thing. Each one
was specific to one brand of computer, right, so that
you could learn one language, but you could only use
it on one kind of computer. You'd have to go find,
like your ten thousand pound computer that you could use
(09:42):
that language on. Um And so programs weren't portable, as
we already have talked about, neither our computers. So a
universal programming language was needed, right, And you know what
did Annual Hopper do. She helped create one for her.
That's not one must make one, that's right. So the
(10:07):
language that she really spearheaded the development of is known
as cobal Um not to be mistaken with a cabal,
but cobal which stands for common. We used to see
amnio in the word common common business oriented language. It's
a flexible, accessible, is for you know, words that you
(10:30):
could really sum up other parts of Hoppers work with.
Language that's still in use today, which is we talked about,
is really extraordinary. I mean, so this is what was
so big about it. Cobal was a program that could
be used. The whole design of it was that it
could be used across all these different brands of computers,
and there weren't like standard specs from one computer maker
(10:53):
to the next the way there is today. So until
this point, you would have to translate a program from
one computer to another, and that would cost like hundreds
of thousands of dollars. So they needed something that could
work on all hardware. And and this was what was
so powerful about the language that could be you know,
applicable and useful across banking, insurance, utilities, manufacturing, inventory control, healthcare, government,
(11:22):
the military. Right, there are all these different industries that
needed the power of computing, but they took in data
in different structures. They needed to process that data very differently.
And to write one simple English programming language that was
flexible enough across all of these industries and open enough
(11:45):
for kind of continuous development as these industries progressed and
could be learned by kind of a broad pool of people.
Like this was a really ambitious goal. Yeah, you know,
and time where all these industries even more today, right,
so much more we're really siloed, like they were really
(12:06):
independing of each other, Like we are just feeling the
industrial revolution, right, like we're feeling the effects years later,
still very strong. And this is so profound because it's like,
let's find a way to bridge the divide, like computers
for all literally here here and it worked, so okay,
(12:28):
fun fact, I think we can all remember the ease
of Y two K. I think about K I remember
the water bottles, everybody holding their breath. This is like,
is just like wrapping up in full force. Right at
(12:49):
that time, nearly eight percent of all computer code worldwide
was written in COBAL, including of all finance and insurance programs.
So it's just absolutely in effect still at that point.
And then do we all remember the Y two K
(13:09):
fear around resetting numbers of the new millennium? Right? It
was like, wait, what happens? Are we all resetting to zero?
And everything? They crashed like automatic doors will never open again. Right,
So we can also thank KOBAL for that. Yeah, you know,
the committee created COBAL and there are many things that
(13:30):
it did right. But one of the things that maybe
was a bit shortsighted was that it shortened years to
just two digits instead of nine. They did this to
save memory, and I guess it's probably pretty understandable that
in the mid kind of nineteen fifties. The thought that
this language would still be in use half a century later,
(13:51):
is not that the reasonable to be like, it's not
going to be an issue. Um so uh. You know, Luckily,
an entire jet narration of coball programmers were able to
come out of retirement in like to create these like
patches and workarounds to solve the problem. And it ended
up being kind of a bust. But it's not because
(14:12):
it wasn't a big problem. It's because we still had
enough living people who knew how to write cobal that
they could like fix it the last second. That's funny.
I thought it was right. They were doing a whole
like yeah, mess around and trying to gather everyone. I
do remember that being like, yeah, oh my god, we're
gonna go by Teddy ro. Yeah. I love that though,
(14:34):
because I feel like that's like the sign of the
successful operation of any kind that most people think, Oh
it was just fine. Yeah it didn't come Yeah, I
mean tweet like, can you imagine live tweeting the end
of the millennium and likes it happening? It's happening, didn't happen.
Things to work forward to. But no, you know what
I love about that too, is is that it was
(14:56):
so great that all of these sort of retirees came
out and there was this just whole you know, not
only did Hopper inspire the democratization of computers, but longevity
in the workforce. And we'll talk about that in a
little bit about how she was like the poster child
if you can work is what you want to I
was going to say, I could just imagine them going, Okay,
(15:17):
you kids. I feel like that's the movie we need
right now, a superhero team. They're coming together like a symbol.
I'm retired, what's wrong with you? So incredible about her
leadership style because you can imagine designing a programming language
(15:40):
by committee to work in you know, all of these
different worlds that could have been a total disaster um
but instead she really spearheaded this. And you know a
lot of the people interviewed about what this experience was
like afterwards said working with her was interesting because she
served as a conductor of invention rather than a dictator.
(16:04):
She she really allowed information to flow between her company,
Remington Rand, and all the other collaborators at other corporations,
and she one of her like famous quotes was You
don't manage people, you manage things. You lead people. And
I thought this was a really notable difference between her
(16:25):
and a lot of the men that led the early
computer programming efforts. This was a very distinct leadership style
that you know, I think we can see the effects
of how how well it worked. Yeah, it was really intuitive, right,
and it was really sort of human driven, and I
think that's something when we think about this sort of
(16:46):
separation between us and you know, technology, it's always like, well,
how do we bring it sort of to us? And
Admiral Hopper was so great. A's saying, yeah, this is
only valuable if we know how to talk about it
and we use it, and we knew how to share
it together. And that was just such an inclusive worldview
(17:11):
and one that came from her own life right of
really bridging different fields and its being such a pioneer.
So we have more on Grace Popper story, and we're
gonna get into that, but first we're going to get
into a quick break for work from responsors and we're back,
(17:39):
Thank you, sponsor. She sound a way to live her
vision of creating a common language for technically savvy people
and people who didn't identify as tech savvy. So basically
she was able to hang out with everybody, and in
terms she got everybody to hang out to We also
need to mention, okay, in nine she was awarded the
(18:01):
Data Processing Management Association's Man of the Year award. No
one saw the irony thing. Also, this is a crucial
fact about her. She invented the term bug is in
computer b Yeah, and and she invented it after an
(18:23):
actual bug. This is true. It was a moth was
found in a computer that was having issues, and she
took that moth and she taped it in her notebook
along with her notes from the day. And we still
use that to describe a problem that prevents a program
from running successfully. So I love that she saw a
problem and just sort of embraced it as Yeah, that's
(18:44):
what that is, and here it is completely in our vernacular.
The only thing that weirds me out about this is
having the dead bug taped in the notebook. So, yeah, Christina,
you and dead bugs? Right, Yeah, I'm just I'm a
little squeaming was fair enough. I love stories like that
(19:04):
where you're like, oh, I use this word every day,
you don't really think about it. And then when you
have an inkling of why do we call it that?
And then there's this amazing story behind it. I love
it when that happens. I would love to, like every
time I heard someone say that there was a bug
in the system, somehow just this like hologram of Grace
Hopper appears just to like take credit for it or
(19:27):
some kind of like Grace hopper trademark just shows up.
I kind of like a little a little belter ring gun, right,
like every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wing, right,
a Hopper gets her credit, but exactly a woman gets
the credit. She Okay, so we have to talk about
her background because she obviously was a badass. But how
(19:50):
did Admiral Hopper become such a badass? Right? Yeah, well
it all started, you could say, on December nine in
New York City when Admiral Hopper, then Grace Brewster Murray
was her growth name was born Grace start. Let's fast
forward just a little bit. Yeah. I think that's a
great idea. So, you know, it was clear looking at
(20:11):
her upbringing that education was important in her family. Her
dad actually went to Yale, where she would eventually go.
She went to private schools, and in ninety eight she
graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Vassar College with two degrees,
both in math and in physics. And then in nineteen
thirty she got her master's degree in mathematics from Yale
(20:33):
and the next year began teaching mathematics at Vassar while
finishing her doctorate in Yale in mathematics and mathematical physics.
She finished that in nineteen thirty four, So no flouch
working while finishing the doctorate, right, And you know, there's
actually an interesting historical fact here that a relatively high
number of women were receiving doctorates in the nineteen twenties
(20:56):
and the nineteen thirties, and the number of women who
were receiving doctorates at that time wouldn't be matched again
until the late nineties eighties. Just kind of crazy to
think about, right, Like, there was this uptick and women
getting doctorates, and then there was sort of this valley
and then it upticked again. Um, you know, like fifty
(21:16):
sixty years later. So you know, it sort of seems
in the post war kind of leave it to Beaver era,
Americans suddenly decided that women should focus on being mothers
and housewives and you know, there was a war going on.
There were things that needed to happen during that war
in jobs that needed to be had. But it's it's
also important to know that this wasn't always the case.
(21:37):
Like I love going back to history and signing moments
when women had a lot more power than than they
didn't have for a while. To nobody, it was there,
right and to go what happened exactly, And you know,
in either case, her success in a male dominated field
and in male dominated organizations like the military, it was
(21:59):
truly exceptional. Right. So after she got her PhD, she
became a full fledged math professor at Vasser, and she
became very sort of famous at Vasser. And what she
was known for was bringing in content from other disciplines
in her math courses. So her classes became some of
(22:19):
the most popular of the department. People would just show
up to hear her lecture. I love this so much
because basically they gave her a lot of the craft courses,
and she had a lot of them. In one semester
she was teaching I think like six courses. So she
was she was given kind of the rent workload, and
she said, you know what, fine, I'm going to make
these classes fascinating. And she took what came naturally to her,
(22:43):
this interdisciplinary interest, and she applied it to her pedagogy.
So while she was a professor, she had the rights
to audit classes advassasor she could sit in on anything
she wanted, and she attended classes in get this list.
This is an insane list, astronomy, physics, chemistry, geology, biology, zoology, economics, architecture, philosophy,
(23:07):
and the history of scientific thought. So she she was
a curious and she she found like newfound knowledge and
applications of mathematics in those fields, and she brought those
applications into her courses, which helped make math relevant for
students from a wide variety of majors. And that was
(23:28):
so crucial that she wasn't teaching these concepts in a vacuum.
She was showing them how does this apply to your
world and why does it matter? Right? I just love
thinking about that student who's like showing up for this
I don't know statistics class and it's like this is
just going to be a snooze fest. However, is just
(23:49):
up in the front and just completely breaking down whatever
expectations all of those students came in with, you know,
and that was just another one of her superpowers, was
this connector. And another thing that she did along these lines,
which is so fascinating and profound, is that she incorporated
writing in her math courses. There were essay assignments, and
(24:12):
her students sometimes complained that this was a math course,
not an English course, which Hopper replied that there's no
use trying to learn math unless you can communicate it
with other people. So, if we haven't yet mentioned it,
she was known as irreverence, sharp tongued, and brilliant. She
was Queen of the comeback. But this was so crucial
(24:35):
to her later success. Right, Her ability to connect ideas
but also talk about her work really truly communicated in
English is what made her so successful. Okay, so she's
teaching a assort. She's a star professor, and then Pearl
Harbor happens, and Hopper, like a lot of other people
(24:55):
in her family and her community, they wanted to serve
their country. But she thirty four years old, which the
military deemed too old. As someone who is past thirty
four currently, I'm assaulted by this right there with you.
He also was considered fifteen pounds underweight for her height.
(25:15):
I do not suffer from that problem. I don't know that.
She was too old, too small, too old, too small,
And so the military was like, no thanks, and then
they reconsidered because her mathematical skills were pretty in demand. Uh,
and so after like petitioning for a waiver, she in
December nineteen she was able to join the Navy, which
(25:38):
was super exciting. Yes, and I'm actually just going to
jump ahead here because this was one of those moments
and we'll jump right back one of more than one
times that the Navy was like we're done with you
or we don't need you, and then they were like,
oh wait, you're actually too valuable. Because when Hopper was sixties,
she was forced to retire from the Navy due to
(25:59):
her age, but then a mere seven months later, didn't
even take a year, the Navy called her back to
active service at the age of sixty, which, if we're
doing this math, it's now twenty six years past when
they told her she was too old. She's now called
back to active duty because literally no one could do
what she could do. And then she remained on active
(26:21):
duty for nineteen more years and became the oldest serving
officer in the U. S. Armed Forces. So studying that ages,
I can't imagine getting that call and been like mm hmm,
what what what are you going to give me? What
did you say you need me? What do you need
about She's like hetty, and I'd be like, I don't
(26:44):
know when we're talking about comeback, She's like clapp back.
She's like, oh, tell me that again, however nicely. I mean,
I'm a petty bitch, and I'd say great, but my
price has just double. She couldn't do that and didn't
do that. But I'm just saying, probably they have no
(27:05):
acknowledge that you are the only person who can do this.
Her price has gone up, right, absolutely, and your team
of people to keep you as hopefully so. So going
back to right in the wake of Pearl Harbor, right,
she's gotten the waiver. She was able to join the Navy.
At this point, she had been married for fifteen years
(27:27):
to a fellow academic, and that marriage was ending. Happer
got divorced, and so at that time she was really
eager for a new path. But she'd been in academia
and she's like Jones Ngum for a new challenge. And
in case you're wondering about her personal life, she never
had children and she never remarried after her divorce, but
she did date other people we've read, Yeah, she still
(27:51):
had a life. I love it. That's right, that's okay.
So Happer joins the Navy. She goes into basic training,
and she thinks that she's going to be signed to
the cryptography unit to help decode communications. But literally, in
like the weeks that she's in basic training, plans change
and she gets sent up to Harvard to become the
(28:12):
literally the third ever computer programmer of the world's first computer,
the Mark one. So that's what, like, you know, things
were changing fast and furiously in the moment, but she, uh,
you know, she they could see how and why her
skills were relevant. And I think that that one little,
you know, decision to send her up to Harvard really
(28:34):
change the course of all of human technology. Yeah. Yeah,
it's it's so true. And and I love the fact
that after the war, Hopper was actually offered a full
professorship at vasser So I feel like the department Vassor
was like, oh, we had you teaching those terrible classes,
(28:54):
but come back and like um, and she said no.
She was like, I'm not going to come back because
she wanted to stay at Harvard. She wanted to keep
working on the Mark one. And during this time she
became a research fellow in Engineering Sciences and applied physics,
and she helped develop the Mark two computer and then
(29:15):
the Mark three computer. And then even though she did
all of this, eventually it became clear that she wasn't
going to be promoted or granted tenure at Harvard, which
is just like who was running the place? Taking my
head over here? My why? So she was like, alright, academia,
I'm done with you, and she went into the private sector,
(29:36):
which she brought us the Compiler and Cobal. Like, you know,
it wasn't a terrible outcome for humanity, but it's frustrating
on her behalf that like it still wasn't good enough.
But you know what, it's okay because she ended up
being the recipient of more than forty honorary degrees. She
got scholarships and professorships and awards. In President Obama posthumous
(30:02):
Lee gave her the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which is
the nation's highest civilian honor. So Harvard Harvard sucking basically, yes, yeah,
I mean amazing grace indeed, right, and and and while
(30:23):
there's always this aggravation that I feel when these awards
come later and then many of them after this act,
it's right, right, it's nice to know that many people
at least finally become to the Harper Party, right, I mean,
she has like the world's largest conference for women in
computing named so there's at least like the legacy is there.
(30:48):
At least people know who she is. And you know
that actually wasn't a guarantee. She was kind of in
obscurity for a very long time until was it sixty
minutes did a special on her, right, and all of
a sudden people are like, wait, what yeah, which is
disheartening in some ways because if she has done she
(31:11):
did so much and we still use so much of
what she built without crediting her aout crediting her is
very disheartening. Yeah, So I'm glad she's starting to get
the recognition that whether or not you want to know who,
who are all the other stories of women and people
(31:32):
of color who contributed to these revolutions right to our
knowledge base, and you know, get one month out of
the year that we tell their history, and we tell
the same five stories over and over again, right, and
I just I want there to be so many more
of these these incredible stories told, because you know they
were there, we just don't know their names exactly. Yeah,
(31:55):
that's right. You know, we've sort of already talked about
the premise of our podcast and gets very clear why
Admiral Hopper is our unofficial patron saint, you know. But
what what is so important about her too, is is
that she probably if you asked her, right, she was like, oh,
I'm too busy working on this thing. I can't talk
about whatever you want to ask, or you know, like
(32:18):
she was just like head down in work, and she
was just you could tell, so passionate about cracking open
things that should never be closed. Like she was like, yes,
why wouldn't writing and math go together, or why wouldn't
we in these different industries use the same language, Like
she was just by showing up and living what she
(32:42):
was passionate about. She was an innovator, right, And I
think you know, on our show, we we talk with
different innovators, and we really like to have conversations with
guests who are uh you know, really bridging differ it feels,
and saying no to silos. And it's not surprising to
(33:03):
us that it's really easy for us to find female
identifying guests for our show. Like this doesn't seem coincidental
at all. Yeah, I mean it reminds me of Cindy Gallup,
who's a fabulous woman um in the advertising industry and
in technology, who has a famous saying. She says, women
are often disruptors because they're never the default, like the
(33:28):
world was not designed for women, and so as a result,
they see where the friction is or where things could
be designed better, and that makes it, um maybe not
easier for them to innovate, but it certainly gives them
a perspective that is outside of this is how things
have always been done, or this just works because it works.
(33:51):
And so I think we see that very clearly with
Admiral Hopper as well as so many of the guests
on our show, where they say that didn't make any
sense to me, and so I tried to see if
there was a different way to go about doing it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
I think you know, Hopper is such an incredible example
of this. Just Steely resilience of She was like, I'm
(34:13):
too small and old for the Navy. We'll let me
go find something somewhere arounds here, right, Like, I'm just
going to be in spaces that weren't built for me,
but I will, I will shift the spaces in order
to do the work that I want to do. And
the fact that she was able to do that so
many times in the span of her life at a
(34:34):
time when um, you know, I mean, my gosh, it
continues to be difficult, right, but the fact that she
was able to just bust through so many doors just
iconic and badass and so inspiring. I just love so
much that she went and got a waiver, like she
didn't have take Now you know, this is such an
important thing. I think. I say this to my mentees
(34:54):
all the time, where they're like, well I'm not qualified
for that thing, or like I don't meet the whatever
the minimum rules. I'm like, but did you ask if
they'd make an exception? And they're like, well, why would
they make an exception for me? And I'm like, do
you think they don't make exceptions? Ever? Like, go ask,
and more often than not, there are waivers to be found,
exactly you've probably just hurt my light bulb, which is
(35:16):
I feel like getting a waiver is like going to
be my new comeback to anything, like, well, I'm gonna
go get a waiver and I'll do we do this,
so expect the waiver. Yes, so we're gonna come back
with a little more from Kate and Christina. But we
have one more break more sponsor, and we're back. Thank
(35:50):
you sponsor. Here we go, let's get into it again.
So much of what she did, like the math and writing,
is a great example to me because so many times
have you, if any of us, think back to when
you were in school, somebody I guarantee set in math,
like well, this isn't going to be useful for my future.
And it's so helpful to remember that, yes, if you
(36:15):
do math, then it's not a traditional liberal arts communication thing.
But like she said, if you can't talk about it,
if you can't work in the fields that rely on
communication and other skills, how are you gonna Then you're
hindering yourself. You're you're basically setting yourself back. And I
(36:36):
just think that's so useful to realize all these things
can touch each other, and all of these skills can
kind of weave together, and it's just it's why not
pick up another skill? That's right, And I think to
the way that math is presented is often just oh,
(36:57):
this is what it is and get on board or
the wrong with you? And what was just so like
script flipping about Hopper's work was like, no, actually, Matt
should be understood. There should be a why here, and
you can also write about that and create that for yourself,
like just saying there is nothing wrong with you. We
(37:18):
just have to break this open and enter ownership, enter
looking at it in different ways like enter just bringing
other skills to the party. So it's just all part
of her course. You know, absolutely we salute you. I know,
I feel like I need a drink now. I want
(37:38):
to like, yeah, give our a little pour out for sure. Yeah.
I feel like she would just have a whiskey meat
or something just like very just like power just completely
can't be going forward. That's one of my favorite parts,
like about the waiver and so I just like, Okay,
I got rejection or I've gotten pushed down, pushed aside.
(38:00):
I'm just gonna keep going. Screw all, y'all. Let me
just keep going and I'm gonna make it forward. I
might not see the credit ever, obviously, but one day
this is what I've done for the world at leads
up changed humanity in some sort of way. M h Yeah.
And when we look at online spaces or even just
the way people speak, women and people of color are
(38:22):
largely the ones pushing it along because they do see
they see these places where we need to improve or
you're not serving me, right, So I guess I'll go
and right, yeah, which is kind of that edge, just
like there's no space for me, I'll make space watch
me right right, exactly, absolutely right. And that can be
(38:45):
you know, my gosh, that can be exhausting. That can
be full of the things. And just remembering that, like
being able to just do your work and doing whatever
it takes to do that and being like, I don't
care if you're not on board, but I'm going to
make this happen. Is just you know, such a skill
that that I know, I look at hop the story
and go, yeah, I can I can do more that
(39:07):
right now, even I'm not gonna lie, that's exhausted me.
Because in the like she has to go overboard to
prove ourselves not only and I do what you're asking
me to do, but I'm going to go beyond so
I can prove that could do that in order to
prove my birth. Not only do I have to go
do what I'm supposed to do, but unlike a white man,
I have to go beyond that to show you I'm
(39:29):
more qualified than that bus that they are doing that.
So it is exhausting, but if you can bring, you know,
others like you along behind you, you know, leave the
door open. One of the things that Hopper was known
for not just in believing that anyone could code, but
(39:49):
she specifically went out and recruited young women and and
taught them because She's like, if I can teach them
how to do it, then everyone will see that everyone
can learn how to do it. So she didn't just
like allow herself to be the exception. She really designed
a world and brought people along with her that said,
I'm not the only one. I'm just the first because
(40:11):
I'm the first one to ask for the waiver, or
I'm the first one that had the stamina to put
up with all of this crap. But there are lots
more like me, and I'm going to make sure that
I bring them along with me to ensure that we
stay yeah, which is that's right, and and she just
created this undeniable force from doing that, which, as we
(40:33):
saw more than one time in history, a bunch of
dudes were like, oh wait, yeah, we need you know,
and she's like, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm you know, throwing
this proverb real party over here with a lot of
badass women and humans get on board or I'm another
(40:55):
train off. Yeah. And that also going back to what
you said earlier about the context of how many first
have we lost? Yeah, So I'm glad these stories are
starting to come out and always important to have that
context of there were people doing these things that were
(41:15):
not recognized and have not been yet right, but hopefully,
hopefully and then we can keep searching because there are
those stories, and that's kind of been the theme today, ye,
rediscovering stories of this was done first. We just didn't
know about it until we had to put in all
this research. And there are many more who we didn't
know about that's slowly coming out, and hopefully we can
(41:37):
continue to find that, and I'm sure we will continue
to find that and dig deeper, which is phenomenal and
it's great because that means we can keep learning. Well,
like big old shiny gold stars to you too, or
having first and inspiring us to really deep dive a
woman in history who we love and just I mean
(41:59):
I feel my gosh, b just every time I look
at her story, it was just more to more to
mine and more to love, right, yes, um, and gold
stars to you as well. I mean when you said,
like it was the first pitch you said, and I
was like, yes, yes, I love her. I actually, um,
(42:20):
I used to be the producer of this show and
we used to have a video series, and one of
the video series was called Her Story, and we did
one on Grace Hopper. So for anyone who wants to
see a super goofy, you know, it's like wacky PBS
interview with Grace Hopper, I suggest watch this immediately and
(42:45):
love curiously googling on the fender. Yes, yeah, I just
love that you guys have a whole series based on
the human ven diagram because I think it's important to
show every aspect that is not just one or the other,
and people or complex beautiful and we need that desperately,
especially today's humanity. I love being negative. That's my social
(43:07):
work side of me. Everything's running everything that every episode
I do. I try to put it that every now
and again. Okay, well, things okay, things are okay, Okay,
thanks absolutely, things are okay, and we all contain multitude
perfect perfect way to end. Is there anything else you
(43:29):
wanted to add before we get to some shout outs?
Not at all. I salute you at absolutely, Admiral Hopper,
and we salute you Annie and Samantha, well, thank you,
Kate Christina coming on with yes, I feel like we
are truly e friends. So what we are I don't
(43:51):
know what this is when you don't see them face
to face. Yeah. I don't think there's a good word
for that yet, cyber friends. That sounds creepy. I'm gonna
say that anymore. Yeah, maybe a lot harder. Yeah, language
she she said, bug for something. Well, we need to
find the language for this one works out. Um, let's
start an email thread. I love it perfect. So where
(44:14):
can the listeners find you both? You can find us
on the internet at t L d any podcast dot com.
That's the limit does not exist. L d any and
on Twitter and Instagram at t L d any pod
or of course, you know iTunes, Apple podcasts, the I
heart listening apps. Did you're all the places you get
(44:35):
your podcasts? Yea. We have faith in the listeners. They're
very they can find it. We do. We trust that
what you're all as smart, if not smarter than we are.
And if you want to find us, if you want
to email us, you can. Our email is Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can also
(44:58):
find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You
or on Twitter app Mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening.
Stuff i'man Ever Told You's a production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcast from i heeart Radio is the iHeart
radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I've never told your production of I Heart Radio Today.
We are really excited to be joined by the host
of the podcast The Limit Does Not Exist, a show
(00:25):
that digs into what the host describe as human even diagrams.
Thank you both so much for being here. We're so
happy to be here. Can you introduce yourselves and describe
your show a bit more in depth words? Please? Yes. So,
I'm Kay and I'm Christina and Annie. You said it right.
(00:46):
Our podcast is a show for human ven diagrams, and
that's really our term for people who have multiple interests
that often feel like they might not go together. And
we're so fascinated by the intersections of those interests. We
believe when it comes to pursuing your passions, you shouldn't
have to choose. We are a fan of The End
(01:09):
over the Ore exactly. Both of us kind of have
these zigzag paths with um. As Kate said, unexpected intersections.
For me, it was math and theater. For Kate, she's
got filmmaking, directing, producing all of that world, plus a
lot of math and UH and helping girls get super
(01:30):
psyched by math. And we thought, well, if we love
all these things, there's probably a lot of other people
like that too. So that's what our show is about.
That's right. It really began as the intersection of STEM science, technology,
engineering and math and the arts, and since then, over
a hundred plus episodes later, it's really evolved into the
identity of work and how do you make sense of
(01:53):
what you love and how do you hopefully build a
really sustainable, custom built career out of that. So that's us.
We're so happy to be here. We're happy. Yeah, I'm
really passionate about girls and women and sim as well.
I've told this story several times on the show that
when I was in elementary school, I used to ask
(02:15):
for extra homework in math and science and told Peter
told me that no boy would ever want to date me. Yeah, yeah,
did you report her? I didn't, But I dropped out.
I was in calculus. This was in high school. I
was in calculus and I dropped out. And it's one
of my biggest regrets. Yeah, that was a crime against education.
(02:39):
And I am angry on your behalf, I know. And
I used to take so I went to m Georgia Tech,
which is really big STEM school, and I would take
physics classes like on the d L like I didn't
want people to know about it or something. And now
it makes me so angry. Right yeah, shadow happy boys
(03:01):
never liked me in school because then that wasn't a
consideration and I could just be the know it all
three ahead in math class and like I didn't care. Yes,
I mean I was one of two women in my
calculus class, a class there was there were a lot
of guys in there and this wasn't long ago. Yeah, yeah,
my gosh. So when we were discussing what we were
(03:24):
going to talk about, I was very so excited because
this is um A, We're doing a female first and
we're doing it on one of my heroes, Grace Hopper. Yes, absolutely,
I mean Grace Hopper. We like to call her Admiral Hopper.
We want to give her the rank that she earned.
(03:46):
She admiral. Yeah, she actually had a lot of firsts. Yes,
she did a hundred percent. She was the first woman
to ever earn a PhD in mathematics from Yale. You
know she was. She was so one of the first
ever computer programmers, and she invented the first compiler, which
we will explain She was integral to the invention of
(04:11):
a computer programming language that no small fee is still
used today, and when you think about how far we've
come technologically, it's really impressive. Yeah, she was called amazing
Grace by her subordinates, and I can see why. So
we are psyched to share her. We actually call her
the patron saint of our podcast. We have Our whole
(04:34):
first episode was about her and a fantastic book we
found on her history, and there's so much of her
life in her background that is consistent with this idea
of interdisciplinary work and kind of pulling in unexpected interests
that that we thought we had to share her with you, right. Actually,
our first our first social media handle was at Admiral
(04:57):
Hopper quite some time, about three and a half years.
People would, yeah, people would like tag us in comments
about her, and we're like, oh, we appreciate the shout out,
but like, we're not actually Admiral Hopper. Just to clarify
that if we were to be mistaken for anybody, yeah,
we'd be okay with that. We'd be okay with that.
(05:19):
I mean, so here's the deal. Grace Hopper was the
like one of the pioneers of the computing history, and
her impact spanned like four decades and counting, like she
was pretty impressive. That's right, Yeah, she's she's still going
and I like to think we'll go on forever. So Christina,
(05:41):
I think let's start with the compiler, which is the
first computer jargoning word that we just oh yeah for sure. Okay,
so what's the pilots one? That's right, So, a compiler
allows computer code to be written in a programming language,
written in actual words rather than machine language, which can
(06:04):
be kind of the zeros and ones. So if you
think about bits and bytes, um, it can also be
just like really complicated, uh kind of terms that the
computer will understand, but is super clunky and makes it
it's not just like you're writing in a foreign language.
You're you're literally trying to speak machine. So it makes
it really hard to pick up programming if the bar
(06:27):
was you have to write in machine language, right exactly.
What what's so cool about that and impactful is that
the ability to have computer code be written in a
programming language makes it more accessible to more people. So
if you can just learn that programming language, you don't
have to turn your brain into a machine. You can
(06:50):
you can write the code, that's right. And so Greece
Hopper was super against this idea of the high priest
genius ethos that I only special people can write code.
She's kind of like, yeah, I mean, I actually think
that anyone can learn how to write code. It's a
way of thinking and a language. And by insisting on
(07:13):
kind of moving us toward writing code in English and
use it a compiler to translate it for the machine,
it democratized access to computers. Like this is a big deal.
This is we're not talking like ten years ago, we're
talking back in like the fifties. This was a foundational
concept to the beginning of computer programming that she believed
(07:35):
anyone could learn. Yeah, so she really was this champion
for inclusion, this idea that everyone could learn how to
use a computer and could learn a language around it.
And you know, it's so significant to even thinking about
the story that you just told Annie, because there's continues
to be the sort of proliferation right in math and
(07:56):
stum fields where it's like there is one way to
do it and you don't understand that way, Too bad
for you, right, And so Adderal Hopper was really saying no, no, no,
it's a language that's learnable and you can learn it,
and I'm gonna invent this thing that's gonna make that
really possible. Absolutely. So I also think Christina that we
should know that at the time that the compiler was
(08:17):
invented by Hopper, this was like the late nineteen forties
and early nine and fifties, so computers took up entire rooms, right,
Like we've all seen hidden figures and the Harvard Mark
one computer of which Hopper became one of the first programmers.
Just some data on that. It was fifty one ft long,
(08:38):
eight feet tall, and two feet deep, so if you're
doing some quick, quick mental math, that's eight hundred and
sixteen cubic feet. It was just like daunting to even
look at right, like it was already very sort of
like how do I touch that? Like how I learned
how to do that? But it also weighed like ten
(09:00):
tho pounds. This is a pretty gigantic not gonna put
it in your laptop bag. So okay, back to the compiler, which,
to recap Hopper invented the compiler to allow computer code
to be written in accessible programming language. So there were
(09:21):
several other It's important to note rudimentary programming languages being
developed at the time. But here's the thing. Each one
was specific to one brand of computer, right, so that
you could learn one language, but you could only use
it on one kind of computer. You'd have to go find,
like your ten thousand pound computer that you could use
(09:42):
that language on. Um And so programs weren't portable, as
we already have talked about, neither our computers. So a
universal programming language was needed, right, And you know what
did Annual Hopper do. She helped create one for her.
That's not one must make one, that's right. So the
(10:07):
language that she really spearheaded the development of is known
as cobal Um not to be mistaken with a cabal,
but cobal which stands for common. We used to see
amnio in the word common common business oriented language. It's
a flexible, accessible, is for you know, words that you
(10:30):
could really sum up other parts of Hoppers work with.
Language that's still in use today, which is we talked about,
is really extraordinary. I mean, so this is what was
so big about it. Cobal was a program that could
be used. The whole design of it was that it
could be used across all these different brands of computers,
and there weren't like standard specs from one computer maker
(10:53):
to the next the way there is today. So until
this point, you would have to translate a program from
one computer to another, and that would cost like hundreds
of thousands of dollars. So they needed something that could
work on all hardware. And and this was what was
so powerful about the language that could be you know,
applicable and useful across banking, insurance, utilities, manufacturing, inventory control, healthcare, government,
(11:22):
the military. Right, there are all these different industries that
needed the power of computing, but they took in data
in different structures. They needed to process that data very differently.
And to write one simple English programming language that was
flexible enough across all of these industries and open enough
(11:45):
for kind of continuous development as these industries progressed and
could be learned by kind of a broad pool of people.
Like this was a really ambitious goal. Yeah, you know,
and time where all these industries even more today, right,
so much more we're really siloed, like they were really
(12:06):
independing of each other, Like we are just feeling the
industrial revolution, right, like we're feeling the effects years later,
still very strong. And this is so profound because it's like,
let's find a way to bridge the divide, like computers
for all literally here here and it worked, so okay,
(12:28):
fun fact, I think we can all remember the ease
of Y two K. I think about K I remember
the water bottles, everybody holding their breath. This is like,
is just like wrapping up in full force. Right at
(12:49):
that time, nearly eight percent of all computer code worldwide
was written in COBAL, including of all finance and insurance programs.
So it's just absolutely in effect still at that point.
And then do we all remember the Y two K
(13:09):
fear around resetting numbers of the new millennium? Right? It
was like, wait, what happens? Are we all resetting to zero?
And everything? They crashed like automatic doors will never open again. Right,
So we can also thank KOBAL for that. Yeah, you know,
the committee created COBAL and there are many things that
(13:30):
it did right. But one of the things that maybe
was a bit shortsighted was that it shortened years to
just two digits instead of nine. They did this to
save memory, and I guess it's probably pretty understandable that
in the mid kind of nineteen fifties. The thought that
this language would still be in use half a century later,
(13:51):
is not that the reasonable to be like, it's not
going to be an issue. Um so uh. You know, Luckily,
an entire jet narration of coball programmers were able to
come out of retirement in like to create these like
patches and workarounds to solve the problem. And it ended
up being kind of a bust. But it's not because
(14:12):
it wasn't a big problem. It's because we still had
enough living people who knew how to write cobal that
they could like fix it the last second. That's funny.
I thought it was right. They were doing a whole
like yeah, mess around and trying to gather everyone. I
do remember that being like, yeah, oh my god, we're
gonna go by Teddy ro. Yeah. I love that though,
(14:34):
because I feel like that's like the sign of the
successful operation of any kind that most people think, Oh
it was just fine. Yeah it didn't come Yeah, I
mean tweet like, can you imagine live tweeting the end
of the millennium and likes it happening? It's happening, didn't happen.
Things to work forward to. But no, you know what
I love about that too, is is that it was
(14:56):
so great that all of these sort of retirees came
out and there was this just whole you know, not
only did Hopper inspire the democratization of computers, but longevity
in the workforce. And we'll talk about that in a
little bit about how she was like the poster child
if you can work is what you want to I
was going to say, I could just imagine them going, Okay,
(15:17):
you kids. I feel like that's the movie we need
right now, a superhero team. They're coming together like a symbol.
I'm retired, what's wrong with you? So incredible about her
leadership style because you can imagine designing a programming language
(15:40):
by committee to work in you know, all of these
different worlds that could have been a total disaster um
but instead she really spearheaded this. And you know a
lot of the people interviewed about what this experience was
like afterwards said working with her was interesting because she
served as a conductor of invention rather than a dictator.
(16:04):
She she really allowed information to flow between her company,
Remington Rand, and all the other collaborators at other corporations,
and she one of her like famous quotes was You
don't manage people, you manage things. You lead people. And
I thought this was a really notable difference between her
(16:25):
and a lot of the men that led the early
computer programming efforts. This was a very distinct leadership style
that you know, I think we can see the effects
of how how well it worked. Yeah, it was really intuitive, right,
and it was really sort of human driven, and I
think that's something when we think about this sort of
(16:46):
separation between us and you know, technology, it's always like, well,
how do we bring it sort of to us? And
Admiral Hopper was so great. A's saying, yeah, this is
only valuable if we know how to talk about it
and we use it, and we knew how to share
it together. And that was just such an inclusive worldview
(17:11):
and one that came from her own life right of
really bridging different fields and its being such a pioneer.
So we have more on Grace Popper story, and we're
gonna get into that, but first we're going to get
into a quick break for work from responsors and we're back,
(17:39):
Thank you, sponsor. She sound a way to live her
vision of creating a common language for technically savvy people
and people who didn't identify as tech savvy. So basically
she was able to hang out with everybody, and in
terms she got everybody to hang out to We also
need to mention, okay, in nine she was awarded the
(18:01):
Data Processing Management Association's Man of the Year award. No
one saw the irony thing. Also, this is a crucial
fact about her. She invented the term bug is in
computer b Yeah, and and she invented it after an
(18:23):
actual bug. This is true. It was a moth was
found in a computer that was having issues, and she
took that moth and she taped it in her notebook
along with her notes from the day. And we still
use that to describe a problem that prevents a program
from running successfully. So I love that she saw a
problem and just sort of embraced it as Yeah, that's
(18:44):
what that is, and here it is completely in our vernacular.
The only thing that weirds me out about this is
having the dead bug taped in the notebook. So, yeah, Christina,
you and dead bugs? Right, Yeah, I'm just I'm a
little squeaming was fair enough. I love stories like that
(19:04):
where you're like, oh, I use this word every day,
you don't really think about it. And then when you
have an inkling of why do we call it that?
And then there's this amazing story behind it. I love
it when that happens. I would love to, like every
time I heard someone say that there was a bug
in the system, somehow just this like hologram of Grace
Hopper appears just to like take credit for it or
(19:27):
some kind of like Grace hopper trademark just shows up.
I kind of like a little a little belter ring gun, right,
like every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wing, right,
a Hopper gets her credit, but exactly a woman gets
the credit. She Okay, so we have to talk about
her background because she obviously was a badass. But how
(19:50):
did Admiral Hopper become such a badass? Right? Yeah, well
it all started, you could say, on December nine in
New York City when Admiral Hopper, then Grace Brewster Murray
was her growth name was born Grace start. Let's fast
forward just a little bit. Yeah. I think that's a
great idea. So, you know, it was clear looking at
(20:11):
her upbringing that education was important in her family. Her
dad actually went to Yale, where she would eventually go.
She went to private schools, and in ninety eight she
graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Vassar College with two degrees,
both in math and in physics. And then in nineteen
thirty she got her master's degree in mathematics from Yale
(20:33):
and the next year began teaching mathematics at Vassar while
finishing her doctorate in Yale in mathematics and mathematical physics.
She finished that in nineteen thirty four, So no flouch
working while finishing the doctorate, right, And you know, there's
actually an interesting historical fact here that a relatively high
number of women were receiving doctorates in the nineteen twenties
(20:56):
and the nineteen thirties, and the number of women who
were receiving doctorates at that time wouldn't be matched again
until the late nineties eighties. Just kind of crazy to
think about, right, Like, there was this uptick and women
getting doctorates, and then there was sort of this valley
and then it upticked again. Um, you know, like fifty
(21:16):
sixty years later. So you know, it sort of seems
in the post war kind of leave it to Beaver era,
Americans suddenly decided that women should focus on being mothers
and housewives and you know, there was a war going on.
There were things that needed to happen during that war
in jobs that needed to be had. But it's it's
also important to know that this wasn't always the case.
(21:37):
Like I love going back to history and signing moments
when women had a lot more power than than they
didn't have for a while. To nobody, it was there,
right and to go what happened exactly, And you know,
in either case, her success in a male dominated field
and in male dominated organizations like the military, it was
(21:59):
truly exceptional. Right. So after she got her PhD, she
became a full fledged math professor at Vasser, and she
became very sort of famous at Vasser. And what she
was known for was bringing in content from other disciplines
in her math courses. So her classes became some of
(22:19):
the most popular of the department. People would just show
up to hear her lecture. I love this so much
because basically they gave her a lot of the craft courses,
and she had a lot of them. In one semester
she was teaching I think like six courses. So she
was she was given kind of the rent workload, and
she said, you know what, fine, I'm going to make
these classes fascinating. And she took what came naturally to her,
(22:43):
this interdisciplinary interest, and she applied it to her pedagogy.
So while she was a professor, she had the rights
to audit classes advassasor she could sit in on anything
she wanted, and she attended classes in get this list.
This is an insane list, astronomy, physics, chemistry, geology, biology, zoology, economics, architecture, philosophy,
(23:07):
and the history of scientific thought. So she she was
a curious and she she found like newfound knowledge and
applications of mathematics in those fields, and she brought those
applications into her courses, which helped make math relevant for
students from a wide variety of majors. And that was
(23:28):
so crucial that she wasn't teaching these concepts in a vacuum.
She was showing them how does this apply to your
world and why does it matter? Right? I just love
thinking about that student who's like showing up for this
I don't know statistics class and it's like this is
just going to be a snooze fest. However, is just
(23:49):
up in the front and just completely breaking down whatever
expectations all of those students came in with, you know,
and that was just another one of her superpowers, was
this connector. And another thing that she did along these lines,
which is so fascinating and profound, is that she incorporated
writing in her math courses. There were essay assignments, and
(24:12):
her students sometimes complained that this was a math course,
not an English course, which Hopper replied that there's no
use trying to learn math unless you can communicate it
with other people. So, if we haven't yet mentioned it,
she was known as irreverence, sharp tongued, and brilliant. She
was Queen of the comeback. But this was so crucial
(24:35):
to her later success. Right, Her ability to connect ideas
but also talk about her work really truly communicated in
English is what made her so successful. Okay, so she's
teaching a assort. She's a star professor, and then Pearl
Harbor happens, and Hopper, like a lot of other people
(24:55):
in her family and her community, they wanted to serve
their country. But she thirty four years old, which the
military deemed too old. As someone who is past thirty
four currently, I'm assaulted by this right there with you.
He also was considered fifteen pounds underweight for her height.
(25:15):
I do not suffer from that problem. I don't know that.
She was too old, too small, too old, too small,
And so the military was like, no thanks, and then
they reconsidered because her mathematical skills were pretty in demand. Uh,
and so after like petitioning for a waiver, she in
December nineteen she was able to join the Navy, which
(25:38):
was super exciting. Yes, and I'm actually just going to
jump ahead here because this was one of those moments
and we'll jump right back one of more than one
times that the Navy was like we're done with you
or we don't need you, and then they were like,
oh wait, you're actually too valuable. Because when Hopper was sixties,
she was forced to retire from the Navy due to
(25:59):
her age, but then a mere seven months later, didn't
even take a year, the Navy called her back to
active service at the age of sixty, which, if we're
doing this math, it's now twenty six years past when
they told her she was too old. She's now called
back to active duty because literally no one could do
what she could do. And then she remained on active
(26:21):
duty for nineteen more years and became the oldest serving
officer in the U. S. Armed Forces. So studying that ages,
I can't imagine getting that call and been like mm hmm,
what what what are you going to give me? What
did you say you need me? What do you need
about She's like hetty, and I'd be like, I don't
(26:44):
know when we're talking about comeback, She's like clapp back.
She's like, oh, tell me that again, however nicely. I mean,
I'm a petty bitch, and I'd say great, but my
price has just double. She couldn't do that and didn't
do that. But I'm just saying, probably they have no
(27:05):
acknowledge that you are the only person who can do this.
Her price has gone up, right, absolutely, and your team
of people to keep you as hopefully so. So going
back to right in the wake of Pearl Harbor, right,
she's gotten the waiver. She was able to join the Navy.
At this point, she had been married for fifteen years
(27:27):
to a fellow academic, and that marriage was ending. Happer
got divorced, and so at that time she was really
eager for a new path. But she'd been in academia
and she's like Jones Ngum for a new challenge. And
in case you're wondering about her personal life, she never
had children and she never remarried after her divorce, but
she did date other people we've read, Yeah, she still
(27:51):
had a life. I love it. That's right, that's okay.
So Happer joins the Navy. She goes into basic training,
and she thinks that she's going to be signed to
the cryptography unit to help decode communications. But literally, in
like the weeks that she's in basic training, plans change
and she gets sent up to Harvard to become the
(28:12):
literally the third ever computer programmer of the world's first computer,
the Mark one. So that's what, like, you know, things
were changing fast and furiously in the moment, but she, uh,
you know, she they could see how and why her
skills were relevant. And I think that that one little,
you know, decision to send her up to Harvard really
(28:34):
change the course of all of human technology. Yeah. Yeah,
it's it's so true. And and I love the fact
that after the war, Hopper was actually offered a full
professorship at vasser So I feel like the department Vassor
was like, oh, we had you teaching those terrible classes,
(28:54):
but come back and like um, and she said no.
She was like, I'm not going to come back because
she wanted to stay at Harvard. She wanted to keep
working on the Mark one. And during this time she
became a research fellow in Engineering Sciences and applied physics,
and she helped develop the Mark two computer and then
(29:15):
the Mark three computer. And then even though she did
all of this, eventually it became clear that she wasn't
going to be promoted or granted tenure at Harvard, which
is just like who was running the place? Taking my
head over here? My why? So she was like, alright, academia,
I'm done with you, and she went into the private sector,
(29:36):
which she brought us the Compiler and Cobal. Like, you know,
it wasn't a terrible outcome for humanity, but it's frustrating
on her behalf that like it still wasn't good enough.
But you know what, it's okay because she ended up
being the recipient of more than forty honorary degrees. She
got scholarships and professorships and awards. In President Obama posthumous
(30:02):
Lee gave her the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which is
the nation's highest civilian honor. So Harvard Harvard sucking basically, yes, yeah,
I mean amazing grace indeed, right, and and and while
(30:23):
there's always this aggravation that I feel when these awards
come later and then many of them after this act,
it's right, right, it's nice to know that many people
at least finally become to the Harper Party, right, I mean,
she has like the world's largest conference for women in
computing named so there's at least like the legacy is there.
(30:48):
At least people know who she is. And you know
that actually wasn't a guarantee. She was kind of in
obscurity for a very long time until was it sixty
minutes did a special on her, right, and all of
a sudden people are like, wait, what yeah, which is
disheartening in some ways because if she has done she
(31:11):
did so much and we still use so much of
what she built without crediting her aout crediting her is
very disheartening. Yeah, So I'm glad she's starting to get
the recognition that whether or not you want to know who,
who are all the other stories of women and people
(31:32):
of color who contributed to these revolutions right to our
knowledge base, and you know, get one month out of
the year that we tell their history, and we tell
the same five stories over and over again, right, and
I just I want there to be so many more
of these these incredible stories told, because you know they
were there, we just don't know their names exactly. Yeah,
(31:55):
that's right. You know, we've sort of already talked about
the premise of our podcast and gets very clear why
Admiral Hopper is our unofficial patron saint, you know. But
what what is so important about her too, is is
that she probably if you asked her, right, she was like, oh,
I'm too busy working on this thing. I can't talk
about whatever you want to ask, or you know, like
(32:18):
she was just like head down in work, and she
was just you could tell, so passionate about cracking open
things that should never be closed. Like she was like, yes,
why wouldn't writing and math go together, or why wouldn't
we in these different industries use the same language, Like
she was just by showing up and living what she
(32:42):
was passionate about. She was an innovator, right, And I
think you know, on our show, we we talk with
different innovators, and we really like to have conversations with
guests who are uh you know, really bridging differ it feels,
and saying no to silos. And it's not surprising to
(33:03):
us that it's really easy for us to find female
identifying guests for our show. Like this doesn't seem coincidental
at all. Yeah, I mean it reminds me of Cindy Gallup,
who's a fabulous woman um in the advertising industry and
in technology, who has a famous saying. She says, women
are often disruptors because they're never the default, like the
(33:28):
world was not designed for women, and so as a result,
they see where the friction is or where things could
be designed better, and that makes it, um maybe not
easier for them to innovate, but it certainly gives them
a perspective that is outside of this is how things
have always been done, or this just works because it works.
(33:51):
And so I think we see that very clearly with
Admiral Hopper as well as so many of the guests
on our show, where they say that didn't make any
sense to me, and so I tried to see if
there was a different way to go about doing it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
I think you know, Hopper is such an incredible example
of this. Just Steely resilience of She was like, I'm
(34:13):
too small and old for the Navy. We'll let me
go find something somewhere arounds here, right, Like, I'm just
going to be in spaces that weren't built for me,
but I will, I will shift the spaces in order
to do the work that I want to do. And
the fact that she was able to do that so
many times in the span of her life at a
(34:34):
time when um, you know, I mean, my gosh, it
continues to be difficult, right, but the fact that she
was able to just bust through so many doors just
iconic and badass and so inspiring. I just love so
much that she went and got a waiver, like she
didn't have take Now you know, this is such an
important thing. I think. I say this to my mentees
(34:54):
all the time, where they're like, well I'm not qualified
for that thing, or like I don't meet the whatever
the minimum rules. I'm like, but did you ask if
they'd make an exception? And they're like, well, why would
they make an exception for me? And I'm like, do
you think they don't make exceptions? Ever? Like, go ask,
and more often than not, there are waivers to be found,
exactly you've probably just hurt my light bulb, which is
(35:16):
I feel like getting a waiver is like going to
be my new comeback to anything, like, well, I'm gonna
go get a waiver and I'll do we do this,
so expect the waiver. Yes, so we're gonna come back
with a little more from Kate and Christina. But we
have one more break more sponsor, and we're back. Thank
(35:50):
you sponsor. Here we go, let's get into it again.
So much of what she did, like the math and writing,
is a great example to me because so many times
have you, if any of us, think back to when
you were in school, somebody I guarantee set in math,
like well, this isn't going to be useful for my future.
And it's so helpful to remember that, yes, if you
(36:15):
do math, then it's not a traditional liberal arts communication thing.
But like she said, if you can't talk about it,
if you can't work in the fields that rely on
communication and other skills, how are you gonna Then you're
hindering yourself. You're you're basically setting yourself back. And I
(36:36):
just think that's so useful to realize all these things
can touch each other, and all of these skills can
kind of weave together, and it's just it's why not
pick up another skill? That's right, And I think to
the way that math is presented is often just oh,
(36:57):
this is what it is and get on board or
the wrong with you? And what was just so like
script flipping about Hopper's work was like, no, actually, Matt
should be understood. There should be a why here, and
you can also write about that and create that for yourself,
like just saying there is nothing wrong with you. We
(37:18):
just have to break this open and enter ownership, enter
looking at it in different ways like enter just bringing
other skills to the party. So it's just all part
of her course. You know, absolutely we salute you. I know,
I feel like I need a drink now. I want
(37:38):
to like, yeah, give our a little pour out for sure. Yeah.
I feel like she would just have a whiskey meat
or something just like very just like power just completely
can't be going forward. That's one of my favorite parts,
like about the waiver and so I just like, Okay,
I got rejection or I've gotten pushed down, pushed aside.
(38:00):
I'm just gonna keep going. Screw all, y'all. Let me
just keep going and I'm gonna make it forward. I
might not see the credit ever, obviously, but one day
this is what I've done for the world at leads
up changed humanity in some sort of way. M h Yeah.
And when we look at online spaces or even just
the way people speak, women and people of color are
(38:22):
largely the ones pushing it along because they do see
they see these places where we need to improve or
you're not serving me, right, So I guess I'll go
and right, yeah, which is kind of that edge, just
like there's no space for me, I'll make space watch
me right right, exactly, absolutely right. And that can be
(38:45):
you know, my gosh, that can be exhausting. That can
be full of the things. And just remembering that, like
being able to just do your work and doing whatever
it takes to do that and being like, I don't
care if you're not on board, but I'm going to
make this happen. Is just you know, such a skill
that that I know, I look at hop the story
and go, yeah, I can I can do more that
(39:07):
right now, even I'm not gonna lie, that's exhausted me.
Because in the like she has to go overboard to
prove ourselves not only and I do what you're asking
me to do, but I'm going to go beyond so
I can prove that could do that in order to
prove my birth. Not only do I have to go
do what I'm supposed to do, but unlike a white man,
I have to go beyond that to show you I'm
(39:29):
more qualified than that bus that they are doing that.
So it is exhausting, but if you can bring, you know,
others like you along behind you, you know, leave the
door open. One of the things that Hopper was known
for not just in believing that anyone could code, but
(39:49):
she specifically went out and recruited young women and and
taught them because She's like, if I can teach them
how to do it, then everyone will see that everyone
can learn how to do it. So she didn't just
like allow herself to be the exception. She really designed
a world and brought people along with her that said,
I'm not the only one. I'm just the first because
(40:11):
I'm the first one to ask for the waiver, or
I'm the first one that had the stamina to put
up with all of this crap. But there are lots
more like me, and I'm going to make sure that
I bring them along with me to ensure that we
stay yeah, which is that's right, and and she just
created this undeniable force from doing that, which, as we
(40:33):
saw more than one time in history, a bunch of
dudes were like, oh wait, yeah, we need you know,
and she's like, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm you know, throwing
this proverb real party over here with a lot of
badass women and humans get on board or I'm another
(40:55):
train off. Yeah. And that also going back to what
you said earlier about the context of how many first
have we lost? Yeah, So I'm glad these stories are
starting to come out and always important to have that
context of there were people doing these things that were
(41:15):
not recognized and have not been yet right, but hopefully,
hopefully and then we can keep searching because there are
those stories, and that's kind of been the theme today, ye,
rediscovering stories of this was done first. We just didn't
know about it until we had to put in all
this research. And there are many more who we didn't
know about that's slowly coming out, and hopefully we can
(41:37):
continue to find that, and I'm sure we will continue
to find that and dig deeper, which is phenomenal and
it's great because that means we can keep learning. Well,
like big old shiny gold stars to you too, or
having first and inspiring us to really deep dive a
woman in history who we love and just I mean
(41:59):
I feel my gosh, b just every time I look
at her story, it was just more to more to
mine and more to love, right, yes, um, and gold
stars to you as well. I mean when you said,
like it was the first pitch you said, and I
was like, yes, yes, I love her. I actually, um,
(42:20):
I used to be the producer of this show and
we used to have a video series, and one of
the video series was called Her Story, and we did
one on Grace Hopper. So for anyone who wants to
see a super goofy, you know, it's like wacky PBS
interview with Grace Hopper, I suggest watch this immediately and
(42:45):
love curiously googling on the fender. Yes, yeah, I just
love that you guys have a whole series based on
the human ven diagram because I think it's important to
show every aspect that is not just one or the other,
and people or complex beautiful and we need that desperately,
especially today's humanity. I love being negative. That's my social
(43:07):
work side of me. Everything's running everything that every episode
I do. I try to put it that every now
and again. Okay, well, things okay, things are okay, Okay,
thanks absolutely, things are okay, and we all contain multitude
perfect perfect way to end. Is there anything else you
(43:29):
wanted to add before we get to some shout outs?
Not at all. I salute you at absolutely, Admiral Hopper,
and we salute you Annie and Samantha, well, thank you,
Kate Christina coming on with yes, I feel like we
are truly e friends. So what we are I don't
(43:51):
know what this is when you don't see them face
to face. Yeah. I don't think there's a good word
for that yet, cyber friends. That sounds creepy. I'm gonna
say that anymore. Yeah, maybe a lot harder. Yeah, language
she she said, bug for something. Well, we need to
find the language for this one works out. Um, let's
start an email thread. I love it perfect. So where
(44:14):
can the listeners find you both? You can find us
on the internet at t L d any podcast dot com.
That's the limit does not exist. L d any and
on Twitter and Instagram at t L d any pod
or of course, you know iTunes, Apple podcasts, the I
heart listening apps. Did you're all the places you get
(44:35):
your podcasts? Yea. We have faith in the listeners. They're
very they can find it. We do. We trust that
what you're all as smart, if not smarter than we are.
And if you want to find us, if you want
to email us, you can. Our email is Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can also
(44:58):
find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You
or on Twitter app Mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening.
Stuff i'man Ever Told You's a production of I Heart Radio.
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