January 23, 2024 • 22 mins
Xena: Warrior Princess took the world by storm, at one time the most popular show in the world. Xena served as a huge inspiration, left a lasting impact, and had a whole generation of Xabrielle shippers taking to the internet. We look into the history and legacy of this groundbreaking character.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Stefan never told you a protection of iHeart Radio, and
welcome to another sub sub sub subsegment, Fictional Women around
the World, the first of twenty twenty four, and we
are coming out the gate strong with this one.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Samantha, I'm a little intimidated, but we're gonna do it. Today.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We are talking about nineties feminist icon Xena Warrior Princess. Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I couldn't believe. We never talked about it, like in
all of the hosts.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Never really no host talked about her.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
No, not that I could find. I know. I was shocked.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I mean, honestly, she was one of if there was
a like mother that term, she would have been mother.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I know.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
And I think some of you are probably mad that
this is a stub sechment your whole episode, but this
is what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Maybe we should come back, Maybe we should watch a
few episodes and come back because we need to talk
about so many things in there.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Oh yeah, well, I guess I should come up. Friends,
I've never seen an episode, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
That's why I've intimidated. I never saw it. But my
friend Katie, who's been on this show. She loved it.
I loved it.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, loved it as well. It's been a
lot long time, but it was something that I watched
a lot of.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yes, well see, I was in so deep with young
Hercules was by the way, I think I've I think
I found a way to purchase it yesterday.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
That came after.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yes, it was nineteen ninety nine, I think, yeah, and
this was this was during that time. But yeah, anyway,
I did not see any of it. I feel terrible
about myself. I am shamed, but I.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Feel like, yeah, we need to remedy that, because I
mean I definitely liked Hercules. Of course now I would
never but but then when Zena came through and she
was kind of the antagonist to Hercules and then got
her own show, I was.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Like, yes, obviously I must watch all of it. But
you were not alone, and you were not alone. Okay,
I'm ready to keep going. I'm ready for all right, Yes, okay, cool.
I hope you can step in and correct you if you.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
A long time, I don't think I can. Okay, Cool, Well,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
This character was yes, played by Lucy Lawless and had
a huge following and there are so many essays, books,
blog posts, what have you that have been written about her.
That was another thing that was kind of daunting for
this one. But I love early fan conventions centered around Zene.
I believe there are two that happened every year. One
is in la and one is in London. I did
(02:43):
a lot to popularize genre bending, experimental episodes, like having
a musical episode. There was going to be a reboot,
but it has been indefinitely chived. But yes, the show,
this character had a really huge impact and I just
want to do the opening narration.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
In a time of ancient gods, war lords, and kings,
a land in turmoil cried out for a hero. She
was Xena, a mighty princess forged in the heat of battle.
The power, the passion of the danger, her courage will
change the world.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Love it, I love it?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
It?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Did it did? Oh? Definitely? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So Zena first appeared in the nineteen ninety five to
nineteen ninety nine series Hercules Legendary Journeys, where she was
popular enough of a character that the producer decided to
give her her own spin off show. So she went
on to appear in Robert E. Tappert's nineteen ninety five
to two thousand and one series. Sam Raimi was also
involved in their Zena Warrior Princess and then later the
(03:43):
comic book but the same name. She's also appeared in
an animated movie called The Battle from Mount Olympus, and
she's been in a bunch of non cannon confirmed stuff
from games to books. At one point during its run,
this show was the most popular show in the world,
more than Baywatch. Like This was a big hit Tue Joy.
The show focuses on Zena and her quest for redemption
(04:06):
after spending time as a violent warlord. Her parents were
Atreus and Syene, but at least one episode suggests Aries,
the god of war, may be her biological father, which
is interesting. We'll talk about that more in a second.
When the character was first introduced in Hercules, she was yeah,
like you said, kind of an antagonist, kind of an outlaw.
She'd spent like a decade looting and doing general rogue stuff.
(04:28):
She tried to kill Hercules the first time they met,
drawing him out after seducing his friend. So what happened
was her army had turned against her, believing her week
for saving a child from their lieutenant, so she had
originally tried to regain their trust and display her strength
by killing Hercules and presenting them with his head, but
(04:48):
thanks to some outside help, Hercules defeat Zena but refuses
to kill her, saying killing isn't the only way approving
you're a warrior, and that message really resonates with zene
and she decides to join up with him to defeat
her old army. In a later episode, they have a
brief romantic moment, Hercules telling her she's got good in her,
(05:10):
but Zena decides to break it off and go work
on redeeming herself for her past actions, which is the
main driving plot of her show. Zena quickly discovers redemption
and her dark past are painful to take on, to
the point she almost gives up on being a warrior completely.
She's taking off her armor and weapons and bearing it,
(05:32):
but she sees a group of children being attacked by
warriors and she can't help herself from intervening. This is
where she meets Gabrielle, a traveling bard who is incredibly
inspired by Zena's strength and convinces Zena to let her
travel with her in part to document Zena's adventures. The
two eventually become very close friends and depending on who
you're talking to, more than that.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
That is the one thing I remember people being upset
about the show while I was watching it.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
They were very close. They were We will talk about
that for a second.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Or Gabrielle helps Zena make up with her mother and
is there when she encounters Aries, who Xena rebuffs when
he asked her to join him as warrior queen, which
again m She also runs into a warrior whose family
she had killed, named Callisto, and Callisto helps Hope, who
is the demon child of Gabrielle, kills Zina's son Solon,
(06:28):
who did not know Xino was his mother.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Wo Drama.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
A friend of Zena's name Marcus, died during his first
good deed that Zena had convinced him like we need
to give up the sole violent killing way, Let's do
a good deed, and he died during the first good deed,
and another son of hers tortures her mentor Laom to death.
Later after their ally, Caesar is betrayed by Brutus and killed.
(06:54):
Xena and Gabrielle were crucified during the IDEs of March
and then, of course, they were later to part with
the help of Callisto, who became an angel after Zena
killed her. Then, Xina gets pregnant with its so called
miracle child, prophesied to basically usher out the Olympian gods
and usher in Christianity. In order to escape what they
(07:16):
view as certain death, Gabrielle and Zena fake their own death,
but Ari's mocks everything up and he trapped them in
a cave of ice, where they hibernate for twenty five years. Meanwhile,
Xena's daughter Eve was taken in by Roman Emperor Octavius,
and she's now known as Libya, the Champion of Rome.
She's very active in persecuting the followers of Eli Eli
(07:39):
was key in Zena's resurrection. Eventually, Xena secures Olivia's forgiveness
and Livia retakes the name Eve and takes on the
mantle of the Messenger of Eli. Eve is baptized and
Zena is gifted with the ability to kill god's as
long as Eve is alive. As it turns out, Zena
brings on the prophesized Twilight of the gods after she
(08:01):
kills a bunch of them to protect her daughter. Oh,
and she does this with the help of God and
the Archaice Joel Michael. A lot of interesting things going
on religiously here. Aris also helps sacrificing his immortality so
that a badly hurt Eve and Gabrielle can live. Zena
would go on to help him get his godhood back. Later,
(08:24):
she ends up giving her life to defeat a gladier
named Yotashi, and ultimately chooses to stay dead so that
the souls of the forty thousand people she killed as
a warlord can find peace. Her spirit is later seen
with the spirit of Gabrielle, and this is only one
of many lives Xena will lead with Gabrielle her soulmate
(08:48):
in the two of them fighting evil together.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
That's what they're sort of told.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
So the series finale, which that's what that was, wasn't
the mo as well received. Even some of the showrunners
admitted that they think they flubbed it. But this idea
that they had the death as redemption thing that we've
talked about before, that was there since the very beginning.
One of the writers said, wait a minute, ultimate redemption
may be here. She's not brought back to life, So
(09:23):
I think they were always kind of thinking that she
was supposed to die in the Hercules show originally, so
it sounds like they just never gave up on that idea.
But okay, that's the pot, just very broad strokes. So
Zena was groundbreaking and important in a lot of ways.
She was portrayed as the hero, the warrior, which was
(09:46):
role typically held by men, but she was still feminine,
and she also still looked physically capable. Here's a quote
I found from Wiley. She can be vulnerable as well
as moody or cynical, but mostly she is happily. Also,
no matter what her plight, she always retains her dignity.
For example, she effectively deals with sexual harassment in the
(10:07):
teaser of the early episode The Path Not Taken Quasi
casually beating off one dirty young fellow after the other.
After that, personal remarks and lewde gestures quickly diminish and
almost disappear from the series. And even the most macho
type opponents respect her as a warrior and a woman.
Zena is as much a woman's fantasy as she is
a man's, and that is her charm as well as
(10:28):
her power. Yes, here's a quote from Woosh which I
think is a whole Zena fan site that's been around
for a while. In context of this paper, the character
Zena certainly appeals to the pleasure in looking, yet she
is hardly a passive object. Mulvey argues that for a
male spectator, a male movie stars glamorous characteristics or thus
(10:49):
not those of the erotic object of the gaze, but
those of the more perfect, more complete ideal ego, because
the character can make things happen and control events better
than the subject slow spectator. Why cannot a female hero
serve such a function for a female spectator? Polograham posits
a quote lesbian subjective space in which the female warrior
(11:10):
is sexually objectified but also identified with as phallic desiring object.
There is thus an identification with and desire for the
masculinized female body, a space in which both protagonists and
spectator occupy phallic positions. In the relay, listen when I'm
telling you there are essays and books created about this.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
This is just a taste like there's.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
She was a different type of character, woman like Lucy Lawless,
broke some boundaries because her even her outfit mm hmm.
Even though it was like skirred and Nordic, but at
the same type it was still like heavily like geared,
so it looked masculine, though it was still fimilar to
it everything about it.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's very functional, even brought up.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
There's like a lot of examples they gave of, Like
there's an episode where she has to pretend to be
like kind of like a sex object and they ask
her to dance, but then she like does it, but
is still clearly.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
In control of the situation. You know, she's gonna like
whoop them. It's really good.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
But yeah, this does bring us to I guess you'd
pronounce it Zabrielle. Oh yeah, Xena and Gabrielle.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
That's what it was called. Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So, Zena had a lot of romances, including with Caesar,
who betrayed her, but many many of.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Them were heavily hinted.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Even the showrunners have been like, no, we we wanted
you to think that with women. So with Caesar, a
lot of people think she was more into Melila, who
Caesar killed, and that's one of the big things that
ruined their relationship. Her relationship with lum is often viewed
through a romantic lens, Akini too, and yeah, these are
(12:57):
all women, but also Marcus, yes, Hercules, yes, but so
so so so many people were shipping Xena and Gabrielle,
and I was looking at pictures of them together from
the show and I was like, well, damn yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Like I just clipped onto a YouTube of them and
a Commas on there. The way she looks at her
so softly, like those commas all the way down, kind
of like your response to Luke and Hahn in that
one scene. There's so many of those in Zena, Gabrielle and.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Her Yes, it I mean, but even in passing, I
was like, oh, I can see it.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I can see why people thought this.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
They have looks, and I have a few examples of
why people thought this that I'll share it in a
secular specific examples. But first I also I didn't know
this supero geared and add towards a lesbian audience at
one time, and it featured a license plate that read
Zeno Lover.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So this was like people knew about it.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
People knew about it, and this was coming out during
third wave feminism. We've talked to a bunch of other
about a bunch of other characters from this time, especially
like around witches, because of course we have. But there
was a lot of this going on, and it was
progressive in a lot of ways. It was mostly white show,
(14:26):
but now there's a lot of things people were writing
about and I was like, oh, that's not that's sort
of become more than norm But at the time it
was pretty progressive. And one of the things people pointed
out was she did have a black man as a
love interest. Helen of Troy was played by a black woman.
Cleopatra was played by Gina Tarres, which I didn't know.
And yeah, there was just there were a lot of
(14:46):
Asian characters.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
All of this. I cannot say how well they were represented.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I haven't seen it, but unfortunately, at the time that
was pretty like, oh, okay, of course I have to
talk about. This came out in the early days of
internet fan fiction, and because people were shipping Gabrielle and
(15:16):
Zena so much, left an impact that is still there today.
So fans of Xena popularized alt fic, all or alternative
fiction for same sex romantic fiction. The term uber or
uber fick originated with Xena fan fiction, referring to when
characters are written or depicted in alternate universes, but are
(15:38):
still basically their canon selves, so like reincarnations or past
selves things like that, which, by the way, that's how
the show pretty much ended. They were like, this is
your soul mate. You're gonna have many lives together in
different forms, but you're always going to be fighting together.
It also kind of popularized, which is now sort of
a joke. But the sex and subtext, So yes, a
(16:01):
lot of this relationship was subtext, as in your reading
between the text, you're reading between the lines, You're looking
at the.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Looks that they share. You know, so many looks.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Oh my gosh. But some of it was pretty in
your face. I was reading about it. I was like, okay, okay.
So here's a quote from sci fi. Gabrielle finds herself
trapped in a ring of fire, and only her true
soulmate can brave the flames to free her, even without
her memories. Xena gravitates toward Gabrielle and awakens her with
a kiss. This is right around the place in this
(16:31):
series where the word subtext no longer applies. It doesn't
get much more openly gay than this, folks. The flirting
between Xena and Gabrielle is blatant. References to Sappho as
Gabrielle's all time favorite poet abound, and there is a
lot of friendship baths and the fish puns are plentiful,
to say the least. Xena dresses in drag Aphrodite appears
(16:52):
in all of her godly glory, and Xena goes through
Heck just to gift Gabrielle with a love poem. If
that weren't enough, she pops on the helmet of Hermes
and flies around holding Gabrielle in her arms. Truly one
of the queerest episodes of television we have ever seen,
and a nice almost end to the love story between
Xena and Gabrielle.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
I had to like really cut down on all these coats.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Because I was like, this helps a basic They want
to be buried together, the fates agree they cannot be separated.
They kissed, though it was like the spirit of Xena
in a man's body, but it still showed them kissing,
which could still, you know, at that time, get you
in trouble with censorship, and so that they a lot
of the creators have said, like we were trying to
(17:38):
be as obvious as we could without getting censored, so
they knew about it. They were in on it, apparently,
and the most recent comic run that was largely helmed
by women, the pair's romance was made official. Lucy Lawless
called their relationship definitely gay and said there was always
(17:59):
a wealth she might be or she might not be.
But when there was that drip of water passing between
their lips in the very final scene, that's a menda
dip for me. Now, it wasn't just that Xena was
bisexual and kind of like her galpal and they kind
of fooled around.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Sometimes it was Nope, they're married, man.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I will say, Lucy Lawless has always been all one
hundred and twenty thousand percent playing into that. And I
don't think it was like token, especially during that point,
because that wasn't something that was lawed as being heroic,
you know what I mean, like people trying to find
that diversity, like you were't taking a risk.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeahs show yes.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And she has a quote about that I wanted to
read because she has embraced the queer reading of it.
So she this is from Collider. The fact that they
should be judged unequal writ large is disgraceful and unacceptable
good good souls. I hate that kind of injustice against children.
People are queer or straight or whatever they are from
before the time they're born, So to be educating them
(18:58):
as less than getting those messages implicitly or explicitly from
such an early age. It's a violence. To me, it's
violence against children, and that just goes throughout their lives.
So we want to eradicate that, stopping violence to children
telling them that they don't belong.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It's so upsetting. So yeah, she has been out spoken
about it.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I did want to note you can have a I'm
a big believer of platonic soul mate. It doesn't have
the soulmate thing could be platonic. It's with all this
other stuff that you're kind of like, huh. But you
and I have talked about this before, like I feel
like you totally can have just like your friend, that's
right or die there for you.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But given a lot of the other things changing.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Like that, and if we start like yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Never again.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
But yes, this was a show that featured a lot
of women, strong women, complicated women, relationships between women. Were
there problematic things in episodes? Yes, I read about one
that apparently scarred a bunch of people. That was like
some dream sequence where Gabrielle was a mermaid. I was
reading about like whoa remember, But well, it's probably for
(20:14):
the best. It sounds like it was really really ground
baking and the impact of it is still felt today
in our culture on the internet.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
In two thousand and six, Lawless donated her personal costume.
She's a National Museum of American History, so it's like
in a museum, that's so.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Cool as it should be. That is so cool. Yes,
I think we should come back and dig into this world.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
You opened up a whole door that needs to be crossed,
and we need to have this conversation because I need
to remember those because I just remember thinking, even my
very conservative I think I've kind of shied away from
it because I was getting conservative.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
I was like, I don't know if I can watch
this ray. I still loved it.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I mean the fact that they put it in a
commercial shows how much people were thinking this is pretty
queer show.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
I also like that super just went all the way
and they already have this reputation anyway, and I'll love it,
you do you? But was like they're like, let me go,
let me go ahead.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, oh my, I love it too.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I had such fun researching this and I definitely had
to cut myself off because I was like, oh gosh,
I can't read a whole book about this right now.
But listeners, if you have thoughts about the show, Oh,
I can't wait. I'm sorry, I cannot wait, please let
us know. You can email us at Steffania mom Stuff
at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
at mom Step podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at
(21:35):
stuff I Never told you. We have a tea public store,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
our executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I
Never told You. Protection by Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the Heart Radio, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Stefan never told you a protection of iHeart Radio, and
welcome to another sub sub sub subsegment, Fictional Women around
the World, the first of twenty twenty four, and we
are coming out the gate strong with this one.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Samantha, I'm a little intimidated, but we're gonna do it. Today.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We are talking about nineties feminist icon Xena Warrior Princess. Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I couldn't believe. We never talked about it, like in
all of the hosts.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Never really no host talked about her.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
No, not that I could find. I know. I was shocked.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I mean, honestly, she was one of if there was
a like mother that term, she would have been mother.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I know.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
And I think some of you are probably mad that
this is a stub sechment your whole episode, but this
is what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Maybe we should come back, Maybe we should watch a
few episodes and come back because we need to talk
about so many things in there.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Oh yeah, well, I guess I should come up. Friends,
I've never seen an episode, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
That's why I've intimidated. I never saw it. But my
friend Katie, who's been on this show. She loved it.
I loved it.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, loved it as well. It's been a
lot long time, but it was something that I watched
a lot of.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yes, well see, I was in so deep with young
Hercules was by the way, I think I've I think
I found a way to purchase it yesterday.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
That came after.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yes, it was nineteen ninety nine, I think, yeah, and
this was this was during that time. But yeah, anyway,
I did not see any of it. I feel terrible
about myself. I am shamed, but I.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Feel like, yeah, we need to remedy that, because I
mean I definitely liked Hercules. Of course now I would
never but but then when Zena came through and she
was kind of the antagonist to Hercules and then got
her own show, I was.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Like, yes, obviously I must watch all of it. But
you were not alone, and you were not alone. Okay,
I'm ready to keep going. I'm ready for all right, Yes, okay, cool.
I hope you can step in and correct you if you.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
A long time, I don't think I can. Okay, Cool, Well,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
This character was yes, played by Lucy Lawless and had
a huge following and there are so many essays, books,
blog posts, what have you that have been written about her.
That was another thing that was kind of daunting for
this one. But I love early fan conventions centered around Zene.
I believe there are two that happened every year. One
is in la and one is in London. I did
(02:43):
a lot to popularize genre bending, experimental episodes, like having
a musical episode. There was going to be a reboot,
but it has been indefinitely chived. But yes, the show,
this character had a really huge impact and I just
want to do the opening narration.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
In a time of ancient gods, war lords, and kings,
a land in turmoil cried out for a hero. She
was Xena, a mighty princess forged in the heat of battle.
The power, the passion of the danger, her courage will
change the world.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Love it, I love it?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
It?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Did it did? Oh? Definitely? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So Zena first appeared in the nineteen ninety five to
nineteen ninety nine series Hercules Legendary Journeys, where she was
popular enough of a character that the producer decided to
give her her own spin off show. So she went
on to appear in Robert E. Tappert's nineteen ninety five
to two thousand and one series. Sam Raimi was also
involved in their Zena Warrior Princess and then later the
(03:43):
comic book but the same name. She's also appeared in
an animated movie called The Battle from Mount Olympus, and
she's been in a bunch of non cannon confirmed stuff
from games to books. At one point during its run,
this show was the most popular show in the world,
more than Baywatch. Like This was a big hit Tue Joy.
The show focuses on Zena and her quest for redemption
(04:06):
after spending time as a violent warlord. Her parents were
Atreus and Syene, but at least one episode suggests Aries,
the god of war, may be her biological father, which
is interesting. We'll talk about that more in a second.
When the character was first introduced in Hercules, she was yeah,
like you said, kind of an antagonist, kind of an outlaw.
She'd spent like a decade looting and doing general rogue stuff.
(04:28):
She tried to kill Hercules the first time they met,
drawing him out after seducing his friend. So what happened
was her army had turned against her, believing her week
for saving a child from their lieutenant, so she had
originally tried to regain their trust and display her strength
by killing Hercules and presenting them with his head, but
(04:48):
thanks to some outside help, Hercules defeat Zena but refuses
to kill her, saying killing isn't the only way approving
you're a warrior, and that message really resonates with zene
and she decides to join up with him to defeat
her old army. In a later episode, they have a
brief romantic moment, Hercules telling her she's got good in her,
(05:10):
but Zena decides to break it off and go work
on redeeming herself for her past actions, which is the
main driving plot of her show. Zena quickly discovers redemption
and her dark past are painful to take on, to
the point she almost gives up on being a warrior completely.
She's taking off her armor and weapons and bearing it,
(05:32):
but she sees a group of children being attacked by
warriors and she can't help herself from intervening. This is
where she meets Gabrielle, a traveling bard who is incredibly
inspired by Zena's strength and convinces Zena to let her
travel with her in part to document Zena's adventures. The
two eventually become very close friends and depending on who
you're talking to, more than that.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
That is the one thing I remember people being upset
about the show while I was watching it.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
They were very close. They were We will talk about
that for a second.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Or Gabrielle helps Zena make up with her mother and
is there when she encounters Aries, who Xena rebuffs when
he asked her to join him as warrior queen, which
again m She also runs into a warrior whose family
she had killed, named Callisto, and Callisto helps Hope, who
is the demon child of Gabrielle, kills Zina's son Solon,
(06:28):
who did not know Xino was his mother.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Wo Drama.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
A friend of Zena's name Marcus, died during his first
good deed that Zena had convinced him like we need
to give up the sole violent killing way, Let's do
a good deed, and he died during the first good deed,
and another son of hers tortures her mentor Laom to death.
Later after their ally, Caesar is betrayed by Brutus and killed.
(06:54):
Xena and Gabrielle were crucified during the IDEs of March
and then, of course, they were later to part with
the help of Callisto, who became an angel after Zena
killed her. Then, Xina gets pregnant with its so called
miracle child, prophesied to basically usher out the Olympian gods
and usher in Christianity. In order to escape what they
(07:16):
view as certain death, Gabrielle and Zena fake their own death,
but Ari's mocks everything up and he trapped them in
a cave of ice, where they hibernate for twenty five years. Meanwhile,
Xena's daughter Eve was taken in by Roman Emperor Octavius,
and she's now known as Libya, the Champion of Rome.
She's very active in persecuting the followers of Eli Eli
(07:39):
was key in Zena's resurrection. Eventually, Xena secures Olivia's forgiveness
and Livia retakes the name Eve and takes on the
mantle of the Messenger of Eli. Eve is baptized and
Zena is gifted with the ability to kill god's as
long as Eve is alive. As it turns out, Zena
brings on the prophesized Twilight of the gods after she
(08:01):
kills a bunch of them to protect her daughter. Oh,
and she does this with the help of God and
the Archaice Joel Michael. A lot of interesting things going
on religiously here. Aris also helps sacrificing his immortality so
that a badly hurt Eve and Gabrielle can live. Zena
would go on to help him get his godhood back. Later,
(08:24):
she ends up giving her life to defeat a gladier
named Yotashi, and ultimately chooses to stay dead so that
the souls of the forty thousand people she killed as
a warlord can find peace. Her spirit is later seen
with the spirit of Gabrielle, and this is only one
of many lives Xena will lead with Gabrielle her soulmate
(08:48):
in the two of them fighting evil together.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
That's what they're sort of told.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
So the series finale, which that's what that was, wasn't
the mo as well received. Even some of the showrunners
admitted that they think they flubbed it. But this idea
that they had the death as redemption thing that we've
talked about before, that was there since the very beginning.
One of the writers said, wait a minute, ultimate redemption
may be here. She's not brought back to life, So
(09:23):
I think they were always kind of thinking that she
was supposed to die in the Hercules show originally, so
it sounds like they just never gave up on that idea.
But okay, that's the pot, just very broad strokes. So
Zena was groundbreaking and important in a lot of ways.
She was portrayed as the hero, the warrior, which was
(09:46):
role typically held by men, but she was still feminine,
and she also still looked physically capable. Here's a quote
I found from Wiley. She can be vulnerable as well
as moody or cynical, but mostly she is happily. Also,
no matter what her plight, she always retains her dignity.
For example, she effectively deals with sexual harassment in the
(10:07):
teaser of the early episode The Path Not Taken Quasi
casually beating off one dirty young fellow after the other.
After that, personal remarks and lewde gestures quickly diminish and
almost disappear from the series. And even the most macho
type opponents respect her as a warrior and a woman.
Zena is as much a woman's fantasy as she is
a man's, and that is her charm as well as
(10:28):
her power. Yes, here's a quote from Woosh which I
think is a whole Zena fan site that's been around
for a while. In context of this paper, the character
Zena certainly appeals to the pleasure in looking, yet she
is hardly a passive object. Mulvey argues that for a
male spectator, a male movie stars glamorous characteristics or thus
(10:49):
not those of the erotic object of the gaze, but
those of the more perfect, more complete ideal ego, because
the character can make things happen and control events better
than the subject slow spectator. Why cannot a female hero
serve such a function for a female spectator? Polograham posits
a quote lesbian subjective space in which the female warrior
(11:10):
is sexually objectified but also identified with as phallic desiring object.
There is thus an identification with and desire for the
masculinized female body, a space in which both protagonists and
spectator occupy phallic positions. In the relay, listen when I'm
telling you there are essays and books created about this.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
This is just a taste like there's.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
She was a different type of character, woman like Lucy Lawless,
broke some boundaries because her even her outfit mm hmm.
Even though it was like skirred and Nordic, but at
the same type it was still like heavily like geared,
so it looked masculine, though it was still fimilar to
it everything about it.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's very functional, even brought up.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
There's like a lot of examples they gave of, Like
there's an episode where she has to pretend to be
like kind of like a sex object and they ask
her to dance, but then she like does it, but
is still clearly.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
In control of the situation. You know, she's gonna like
whoop them. It's really good.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
But yeah, this does bring us to I guess you'd
pronounce it Zabrielle. Oh yeah, Xena and Gabrielle.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
That's what it was called. Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So, Zena had a lot of romances, including with Caesar,
who betrayed her, but many many of.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Them were heavily hinted.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Even the showrunners have been like, no, we we wanted
you to think that with women. So with Caesar, a
lot of people think she was more into Melila, who
Caesar killed, and that's one of the big things that
ruined their relationship. Her relationship with lum is often viewed
through a romantic lens, Akini too, and yeah, these are
(12:57):
all women, but also Marcus, yes, Hercules, yes, but so
so so so many people were shipping Xena and Gabrielle,
and I was looking at pictures of them together from
the show and I was like, well, damn yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Like I just clipped onto a YouTube of them and
a Commas on there. The way she looks at her
so softly, like those commas all the way down, kind
of like your response to Luke and Hahn in that
one scene. There's so many of those in Zena, Gabrielle and.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Her Yes, it I mean, but even in passing, I
was like, oh, I can see it.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I can see why people thought this.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
They have looks, and I have a few examples of
why people thought this that I'll share it in a
secular specific examples. But first I also I didn't know
this supero geared and add towards a lesbian audience at
one time, and it featured a license plate that read
Zeno Lover.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So this was like people knew about it.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
People knew about it, and this was coming out during
third wave feminism. We've talked to a bunch of other
about a bunch of other characters from this time, especially
like around witches, because of course we have. But there
was a lot of this going on, and it was
progressive in a lot of ways. It was mostly white show,
(14:26):
but now there's a lot of things people were writing
about and I was like, oh, that's not that's sort
of become more than norm But at the time it
was pretty progressive. And one of the things people pointed
out was she did have a black man as a
love interest. Helen of Troy was played by a black woman.
Cleopatra was played by Gina Tarres, which I didn't know.
And yeah, there was just there were a lot of
(14:46):
Asian characters.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
All of this. I cannot say how well they were represented.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I haven't seen it, but unfortunately, at the time that
was pretty like, oh, okay, of course I have to
talk about. This came out in the early days of
internet fan fiction, and because people were shipping Gabrielle and
(15:16):
Zena so much, left an impact that is still there today.
So fans of Xena popularized alt fic, all or alternative
fiction for same sex romantic fiction. The term uber or
uber fick originated with Xena fan fiction, referring to when
characters are written or depicted in alternate universes, but are
(15:38):
still basically their canon selves, so like reincarnations or past
selves things like that, which, by the way, that's how
the show pretty much ended. They were like, this is
your soul mate. You're gonna have many lives together in
different forms, but you're always going to be fighting together.
It also kind of popularized, which is now sort of
a joke. But the sex and subtext, So yes, a
(16:01):
lot of this relationship was subtext, as in your reading
between the text, you're reading between the lines, You're looking
at the.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Looks that they share. You know, so many looks.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Oh my gosh. But some of it was pretty in
your face. I was reading about it. I was like, okay, okay.
So here's a quote from sci fi. Gabrielle finds herself
trapped in a ring of fire, and only her true
soulmate can brave the flames to free her, even without
her memories. Xena gravitates toward Gabrielle and awakens her with
a kiss. This is right around the place in this
(16:31):
series where the word subtext no longer applies. It doesn't
get much more openly gay than this, folks. The flirting
between Xena and Gabrielle is blatant. References to Sappho as
Gabrielle's all time favorite poet abound, and there is a
lot of friendship baths and the fish puns are plentiful,
to say the least. Xena dresses in drag Aphrodite appears
(16:52):
in all of her godly glory, and Xena goes through
Heck just to gift Gabrielle with a love poem. If
that weren't enough, she pops on the helmet of Hermes
and flies around holding Gabrielle in her arms. Truly one
of the queerest episodes of television we have ever seen,
and a nice almost end to the love story between
Xena and Gabrielle.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
I had to like really cut down on all these coats.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Because I was like, this helps a basic They want
to be buried together, the fates agree they cannot be separated.
They kissed, though it was like the spirit of Xena
in a man's body, but it still showed them kissing,
which could still, you know, at that time, get you
in trouble with censorship, and so that they a lot
of the creators have said, like we were trying to
(17:38):
be as obvious as we could without getting censored, so
they knew about it. They were in on it, apparently,
and the most recent comic run that was largely helmed
by women, the pair's romance was made official. Lucy Lawless
called their relationship definitely gay and said there was always
(17:59):
a wealth she might be or she might not be.
But when there was that drip of water passing between
their lips in the very final scene, that's a menda
dip for me. Now, it wasn't just that Xena was
bisexual and kind of like her galpal and they kind
of fooled around.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Sometimes it was Nope, they're married, man.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I will say, Lucy Lawless has always been all one
hundred and twenty thousand percent playing into that. And I
don't think it was like token, especially during that point,
because that wasn't something that was lawed as being heroic,
you know what I mean, like people trying to find
that diversity, like you were't taking a risk.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeahs show yes.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
And she has a quote about that I wanted to
read because she has embraced the queer reading of it.
So she this is from Collider. The fact that they
should be judged unequal writ large is disgraceful and unacceptable
good good souls. I hate that kind of injustice against children.
People are queer or straight or whatever they are from
before the time they're born, So to be educating them
(18:58):
as less than getting those messages implicitly or explicitly from
such an early age. It's a violence. To me, it's
violence against children, and that just goes throughout their lives.
So we want to eradicate that, stopping violence to children
telling them that they don't belong.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It's so upsetting. So yeah, she has been out spoken
about it.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I did want to note you can have a I'm
a big believer of platonic soul mate. It doesn't have
the soulmate thing could be platonic. It's with all this
other stuff that you're kind of like, huh. But you
and I have talked about this before, like I feel
like you totally can have just like your friend, that's
right or die there for you.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But given a lot of the other things changing.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Like that, and if we start like yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Never again.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
But yes, this was a show that featured a lot
of women, strong women, complicated women, relationships between women. Were
there problematic things in episodes? Yes, I read about one
that apparently scarred a bunch of people. That was like
some dream sequence where Gabrielle was a mermaid. I was
reading about like whoa remember, But well, it's probably for
(20:14):
the best. It sounds like it was really really ground
baking and the impact of it is still felt today
in our culture on the internet.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
In two thousand and six, Lawless donated her personal costume.
She's a National Museum of American History, so it's like
in a museum, that's so.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Cool as it should be. That is so cool. Yes,
I think we should come back and dig into this world.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
You opened up a whole door that needs to be crossed,
and we need to have this conversation because I need
to remember those because I just remember thinking, even my
very conservative I think I've kind of shied away from
it because I was getting conservative.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
I was like, I don't know if I can watch
this ray. I still loved it.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I mean the fact that they put it in a
commercial shows how much people were thinking this is pretty
queer show.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
I also like that super just went all the way
and they already have this reputation anyway, and I'll love it,
you do you? But was like they're like, let me go,
let me go ahead.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, oh my, I love it too.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I had such fun researching this and I definitely had
to cut myself off because I was like, oh gosh,
I can't read a whole book about this right now.
But listeners, if you have thoughts about the show, Oh,
I can't wait. I'm sorry, I cannot wait, please let
us know. You can email us at Steffania mom Stuff
at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
at mom Step podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at
(21:35):
stuff I Never told you. We have a tea public store,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
our executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I
Never told You. Protection by Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the Heart Radio, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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