#MeToo

The origins of the viral anti sexual harassment campaign

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is bridget And and you're listening to stuff
Mom never told you. Now, for today's episode, we have
to have a trigger warning. It is about issues dealing
with sexual assault sexual harassment. So if that's something that

(00:27):
is tough for you, just know that that is what
today's episode is about. Today we're going to be talking
about the viral campaign me Too. If you have Facebook
or social media, you've probably seen people in your life
posting me to. This viral campaign actually came as a
response to Harvey Weinstein, who was this very very powerful
Hollywood producer and filmmaker. These bombshell bombshell bombshell allegations that

(00:53):
came out that he has been sexually harassing and sexually
assaulting women in Hollywood for many, many years, and that
a culture of silence, a culture of looking the other way,
a culture of fear, a culture of intimidation, really allowed
for a sexual abuser to fester in this industry. And
it took a lot of women standing up to have

(01:15):
anything be done about it and even have a national
conversation about it. Despite the fact that it seems like
it's been an open secret in Hollywood for quite a while,
it really does seem like a watershed moment in this conversation.
I feel like the access Hollywood bus conversation by our
commander in chief was the match that lit a lot

(01:37):
of this fire across the United States, in particular around
the everyday, commonplace rape culture that we live in. And
now this sort of movement, this energy, this frustration is
totally righteous. Anger is manifesting in this interestingly targeted way.
So I look back at that tape and I think,

(01:58):
how did this guy be our president? I don't know,
I thought that was the end. Oh my god, I
was so naive to think people cared. But I do
think you're right. I think the fact, I think for
a lot of women, fems, gender nonconforming folks, many of
us have gone through sexual thought, sexual harassment. If you
look at the numbers, it's a pretty common thing. And
so I think you're right, and that going through the

(02:21):
process of watching that tape, having Trump become president, that
kind of lit this anger that had been bubbling under
the surface for so long, where all of us are
like no more, yeah, no more, like no more sexual
predators achieving success in this economy. There is no way
that I think this is where I always go back

(02:43):
to like capitalism can be good, and I really want
to see people who are predators, who are criminal in
their use of power, coercion, sexual assault, rape, that they
are not allowed to succeed. That should be a deal
breaker in terms of getting a job, getting a promotion,
running companies, being successful, Like let's make that not possible anymore.

(03:05):
And even beyond that, for me, it's not just make
sure they're not successful. We shouldn't get them on a
stage and applaud that. Like that's what bugs me so
much about things like that, you're Woody Allen's of the world.
Not only do I want to see them have massive,
massive failures on a on a grand public scale. When
I see them get trotted up on an Oscar stage
and like a standing ovation, that's the thing. They should

(03:28):
be shamed and voted off the island. What are we
doing that we allow these abusers to not just get
financial and professional success, but then we uplift them like, oh,
they're so great? What are we doing? I just think
it's a weird distinction that people can somehow and it
kind of like problematic faiths and that you can hold
someone's body of work separate from the way that they

(03:49):
conduct themselves personally. But A we shouldn't be able to
look the other way when we're talking about sereal predators
who commit assault, sexual will assault, any assault, really and
be now we're talking about sexual assault at work, So
now this isn't just some dark secret sweep under the rug.
We're talking about people who are a threat to women

(04:11):
in their offices, who are a threat to women and
men in many cases by using their professional power as
a vehicle for control in a sexual domain. Well, that's
one of the things I think is would have glossed
over in the Harvey Weinstein situation is that because we're
talking about famous A list actresses, it can seem like

(04:32):
this is this like this Hollywood thing. But at the
end of the day, these are women in the workplace,
and that even though they're famous, they're on TV, they're
A lists or magazines, it is a sexual assault and
harassment in the workplace situation. And I think that that
can get lost when you're talking about like glittery A listers,
and we sometimes overestimate the power of glittery A listers
as compared to the behind the scenes people who make

(04:53):
decisions about what rules they're going to get So, yeah,
you look at these beautiful, successful, flashy A listers and
you think they're so powerful, How could this happen to them?
Like surely people like when with Paltrow was wouldn't be
happening to her. But you think about it, you know,
when it comes to acting, these people were a lot
of times just sort of getting their start and just
kind of working up the ranks of Hollywood, and so
they actually maybe didn't have that much power. Also, it

(05:15):
just goes to remind you that it doesn't matter how
successful you are, You're still just a piece of ask
to somebody. And the most recent everyday assault that I experienced,
which I don't even want to go into details because
I'm not into the me too kind of assault sharing
culture so much. We're going to talk about more, but
it was just like an everyday stranger assaulting me, basically

(05:38):
groping me in public. M reminded me that like, yeah,
I'm a boss, like I am, I own my own company.
I feel on top of the world right now. I'm
like having a great day. I'm going through the world
minding my own business, and I am still dehumanized by
someone else. It does not matter how successful you are.
That is what assault reminds you of, is that you

(05:59):
are nothing. It makes you feel like it doesn't matter
how much brilliance or gusto or power you feel like
you have, You're still just a piece of ast somebody.
And I've horrified that that happened. But the framing that
you just gave, I think is so important because I
think as women, we are taught that it's good to
be a strong, badass woman. You know, no one's gonna

(06:20):
mess with me, blah blah blah. But we are still susceptible, right.
People look at women who project as very strong, as
very assertive, the kind of woman who would you know,
punch you if you did something wrong, and those women
are still being assault It's it really doesn't matter what
kind of woman you are, what kind of person you are.
Sexual harassment and sexual thought happens to all of us,

(06:41):
and it happens in so many industries beyond the entertainment
industry too, Although the entertainment industry is uniquely poised for
this kind of thing because beauty and sexuality and sensuality
are such a form of currency for actors, really being
given the nature of their work. But you've seen this
first hand in the world of progressive politics. I have

(07:02):
seen this firsthand. Um. And so again, the thing that
really throws me about the situation that I experienced firsthand
is that you would think that progressive politics, you know,
these are male feminists, these are lefties, these are people
that you can really trust. That is definitely how I
entered the world of progressive politics thinking. And I quickly
realized that that is not the case. And so a

(07:24):
few years ago I had this job at a consulting
firm called It's Given Media here in d C. We
also had offices in California and New York. We were
this bustling progressive firm. We worked with folks like UM, Ultra, Violet, Um,
we worked with folks like move On. Basically, it was
a who's who of power players on the progressive left right,
so big lefty organizations and our firms founder, Trevork Fitzgibbon

(07:48):
ended up shuttering the firm under many, many, many allegations
of systematic sexual harassment and assault by both coworkers and clients.
And so how this played out for us is that
we went to a retreat in Austin, Texas, we were
a remote office, so we had people who worked from
home or from different cities. But this is one of

(08:09):
the first times we were all together physically in one
in one room, and people started sharing stories and so
one person would be like, oh, well I got this
text or oh this happened to me, and before you
know it, everyone has a story. And so it really
was one of those things that snowballed where we all
came in thinking, oh, this is a one off thing
or this weird thing happened with me, and then realized,

(08:32):
oh my god, this is a systematic thing. It's happening
to multiple people, and really what you're talking about is
unwanted sexual advances from Fitz given the founding partner, and
the people comparing notes and sharing stories were all the
women in the office. Okay, so this is like, oh,
maybe he just invited me to his hotel late at
night because he was like having a weird night and maybe,

(08:53):
you know, maybe it was just me something you can
look past, and then you start to compare notes and realize, oh,
this is a thing like these advances, these unwanted assaults
in some cases, um and granted these are accusations as
they currently stand right, but your office, like you've said
in the past, gossip became a very powerful tool for

(09:16):
understanding that you were not alone and experiencing this kind
of weirdness from your boss. Yeah, And I think what
is so fascinating to me about the situation is the
way that none of us in that office were famous, right, Like,
none of us were Hollywood A listeners. But the way
that the Weinstein case really mirrored what happened with my
progressive firm, and so things like it just being an

(09:37):
invite that you're like, oh, well, that was unusual. So
one of the things that a lot of the women
who made accusations against Harvey Weinstein pointed out is that
it often started with meeting for drinks or an invitation
to go to a film screening one on one, that
kind of thing. And trever I fitz Given definitely did
that same kind of thing, where it's an invitation for
something that seems intimate, that gives you pause but doesn't

(09:59):
necessarily strike you as this person is trying to sexually
assault me, right right, Well, in wine Stine's case, they
would show up and that he would be like in
a bathroom in a hotel room, so it eventually would
get to that way, so like Lupita and Nyango. Actually,
right when wine Stine first came into her orbit, she
was still a student, and it often, you know, early
on was dinner's invitations to see movies and how he

(10:19):
did these specific things to make her feel like it
was safe. So it would be like, oh, come to
this movie screening. You can bring a friend if you want,
or an invitation to dinner, and when they get to dinner,
there's a female assistant there, but then the assistant leaves,
and so it's done in a way where you know
it seems off, but it's not necessarily at least to
start with over enough to be like this is bad. Okay,

(10:41):
they just want to hate because A. I think that
one on one meetings are critical for everyone's career success
plan and simple B. I've been on many of these
kind of hangouts with your mentor and then you're like, oh, God,
is he going to hit on me? Have you ever
had a one on one where you where you bring
your resume and it's a date. Yeah, I remember distinctly

(11:01):
knowing that I was in trouble when this guy who
was a senior consultant on a campaign, and I was like,
the young intern on the campaign took me out to dinner.
I thought we were going to talk about work and
career stuff, and he made a point of showing me
that it was a four bottle of wine that he
just ordered for us to to have. And I was like,
I'm in trouble. I'm officially in trouble. This man now

(11:22):
feels entitled to something in return for his return on
that investment. And I knew it then, and I predicted
the oncoming assaults that would follow in his car, you know, like,
I don't want to tell people you can't have these meetings, right,
that's pensive strategy, right, like no closed door meetings without mother.
They're you know, mother, Like, we can't not be able

(11:43):
to have these meetings. And yet this is the tactic
that people who are trying to assault others use and
rely on our trust of people to not be evil.
That's exactly what the case was in my situation working
at the given and also with Harvey Weinstein, and so
the ways in which predators use these things that we
all understand as parts of having a job, you know,

(12:05):
one on one meetings, getting drinks things like that, using
those things to prey on people who are vulnerable, and
that you're in a position of power over. One of
the things I found so fascinating about when a Paltrow
story and that really really mirrored my own, is that
when Harvey Weinstein made an advance on her, she talks
about how stunned she was. She says, I thought you
were my uncle, Harvey, she recalled thinking, explaining that she

(12:26):
had seen him as a mentor. And for me, what
struck me from that anecdote is this idea that predators
they work by making you feel special or seen or chosen, right,
Like when my boss suggested that we needed a hotel
room for a drink, part of me was like, I
should just be happy that he sees me and that
he you know, I thought he wanted to do that

(12:47):
because he thought I was successful or talented or whatever.
Like it's a way of making you feel special and chosen,
and that that can be used later on to get
you to do something you don't want to do. And
did you ever meet up with him? Uh? Well, funny story,
So how not funny? But I feel what you told
me this story for it. So what went down in

(13:08):
our case was that anyone who knew me at the
time before I got hired at It's Given knew that
I needed a job, right, Like I was a girl
who was a miserable at her job, and like I
was telling everybody, get me out of here, I'm so miserable.
So he sent me a couple of Facebook dms, was like, Hey,
I'm in New York. Do you want to come get
a drink in my hotel? That kind of thing, And
at the time I was like, well, drinking a hotel,
this is a little bit off. But then again, it's

(13:29):
progressive politics. We're pretty we can be pretty casual. So
I ended up declining, but only because I lived in
Brooklyn and he was in Manhattan. And I was like,
I'm not I'm not getting break for you. I'm not
making a complicated subway to transfer her. So I was
like no thanks. So then later when I ended up
getting my job at It's Given around Thanksgiving, I lived

(13:51):
in Richmond and he actually lived in Richmond too, and
so he invited me. He was like, oh, we should
get a drink while we're both in Richmond, and I
was like, cool, Yeah, I have showing up with my
friend and my brother and so I'm sure he was like,
well for it. Yeah, I mean I happened to be.
I mean, this was all this happenstance. I certainly were

(14:12):
looking back, I wish I had the foresight too. But
at the time, didn't he like rage quit that drink too? Yeah,
he basically was like, well, by, yeah, I'll pay for
the next round by. But yeah, I mean part of me,
looking back, it seems so obvious, But I think that
is what this is about. Right, Like, when you're when
it's happening, you tell yourself, oh, like this is fine,

(14:34):
or maybe this is a little unusual, but maybe he's
just idiosyncratic, right, You've got, I mean, the benefit of
the doubt. I'm not opposed to it, you know what
I mean, because I have benefited greatly from male mentors
in my life, and I always tell women, if we
are only mentoring other women, or if women are only
being mentored by other women, we're going to perpetuate gender

(14:55):
wage gaps and gender based discrimination. That's not good for us. Right,
Diversity and mentoring people who don't exactly resemble your entire
life's experience is important, and so people like Harvey Weinstein
and Trevor Fitzgiven give these decent men such a bad name,
and I hope it doesn't prevent us from meeting up

(15:17):
for drinks with people who are powerful and can actually
have influence over our careers. But it's a shame because
there are predators out there too. It's like, what the
hell are you supposed to do? So it's almost like
a double edged sword where you don't want to feel
like you're going to miss out on some sort of
career opportunity that you should be able to have access to,
but because you're a woman, you feel this extra added

(15:37):
layer of concern about it because men are creepy, right,
And that's why we need all the non creepy men
out there and women to actually call this stuff out right,
because it's the silence. It's the culture of complicity that
keeps predators like fits Given and Weinstein rising to the
top like it allows them to remain powerful and influential

(16:01):
in a world that they should not be able to be.
So really, a notable thing I think that you see
in situations both with things like Bill Cosby and with
Weinstein is that you have this culture where a team
of assistants and drivers and handlers and pr people all
know the drill, and they all function to allow this
predator to operate. And so it's assistance showing up for

(16:23):
drinks and then knowing that they're supposed to leave after
a certain amount of time, leave, you know, a woman
alone with him, or it's drivers who are looking the
other way while there's a woman drugged in his back
seat while he's driving her home. It's things like this.
It's a culture where everyone knows their role and it's
a machine that allows this predator to continue doing what
they do without really facing a lot of consequences. And

(16:45):
the other component that's common amongst so many of these
stories is these powerful influential people have not only this
whole team of folks who are complicit in looking the
other way, but they also use retaliation as a powerful
follow up to their assaults. So, whether it's you know,
threatening to blacklist celebrity is like Weinstein did, or if

(17:09):
it's planting things in the sort of industry gossip papers
about those who dare to speak out, Victims are made
well aware that the risks of speaking out and reporting
someone who's as beloved and famous as some of these
criminals are can come with huge risks, and I think

(17:30):
that's what keeps so many women silent, including the women
if it's given right, definitely, I mean, certainly, worrying about
retaliation was a big part of what happened that it's given.
Something I found very interesting about the Weinstein case is
that in Lupita's piece of Many York Times, she wrote
that after she rebuffed his advances time and time and
time again, that there was one incident at a dinner

(17:50):
where he said, let's cut to the chase. I think
we should finish our meal upstairs, and she was like no,
and that after she left, she was like, I felt
like I needed to make sure that that everything was good.
So I said, Harvey, are we good? And he said,
I don't know about your career, but you'll be fine,
and that she didn't know if that was a threat
or not. And what I don't I don't know about

(18:12):
your career, but you'll be fine, and how I mean?
And she this happened when she was still a drama
student at Yale, so she wasn't even surprised me at all,
but like, what an inelegant threat? Like how obvious are
you going to be about this kind of thing? That
that kind of coercion is not even something you're ashamed
to be that explicit about. Well, according to this New

(18:34):
Yorker piece by Rogan Faro, which if you have not read,
is like a bombshell must read piece, Harvey Weinstein actually
had a thing about bragging about getting dirt put in
gossip magazines and dissuading of studios from using certain actresses.
Like he talked about how he had this power over
Hollywood to make things happen for people or not make
things happen for people. And so I think the reason

(18:56):
why he was so inelegant is because he's not ashamed
of it. I'm like being triggered right now because this
feels so much like politics. It is that I think,
so what campaign life is like. And I think what
you said is so important because it's important to even though,
just like you were saying earlier, in Hollywood, sex appeal
and all of that can be a kind of currency.
It's not just Hollywood. It's in so many industries. It's politics,

(19:18):
it's medicine, it's law. It's still kind of valid. Yeah,
if you if you listen to our Silicon Valley episode
Women Being Afraid to Speak up because of retaliation was
a hallmark of the abuse and harassment that those women based. Yeah,
and I feel like this is causing me to like
just go back in my brain and go back in time,
like just thinking about all the men who I've come

(19:39):
across who have used their power and influence to get
what they want sexually, to get what they want out
of the people that they work with, and who have
been so unafraid to use that power and influence in
a retaliatory manner. It's just it really is like blows
your mind how every day and how relatable it is.
And I think that's why the whole Meat Too You

(20:00):
campaign were so compelling, because it made you do that.
It made you go back through every job you've ever had,
every off incident you've ever had, every assault you've ever experienced,
and be like, this is the experience of being a
woman in this country. So we're gonna talk a lot
more about the me to campaign and how it got
started after this quick break and we're back. We were

(20:27):
just getting very very angry thinking about some of the
really inappropriate things that I think a lot of us
have dealt with and sort of why it's now kind
of a watershed moment under the me to campaign. If
it seemed like everybody on your social media feed was
saying me too, that's probably because they were, uh. And
that's probably because sexual harassment in the workplace is so common.

(20:47):
One in three women report being harassed in the workplace,
and one of four say they witnessed a coworker being harassed.
And this is data from a twenties seventeen pole that
you Gov did where they surveyed almost five thousand people.
And I think that these numbers really show this is
an issue that most of us are dealing with. Right
It's very very common. Either you've dealt with that, someone
you know is doubt what that your friend, your family, whoever.

(21:09):
I think it's just this groundswell of voices being like, nope,
if you're if you didn't know this was happening, where
have you been? And I think I've heard from the
men in my life that that was even more opening
for them to see all of this me too. For me,
it was like obviously, obviously me too. I think when

(21:29):
Elissa Milano after the one Steam story broke, she called
on people on Twitter to use that hashtag me too
if they had experienced assault or harassment in the workplace,
and according to Intercept, the hashtag me too has been
tweeted well over a million times in five different countries. Basically,
Milano was saying, maybe if people knew how common this

(21:50):
experience was, we'd care a little bit more about it.
And that was certainly the experience that I felt. But
I also saw when everyone was using the hashtag. I
had this really weird mix of emotions I was experiencing
sort of like obviously, duh, Like if you aren't aware
that this is a widespread issue, where have you been,

(22:12):
but also exhaustion at the need for us to again
be sort of trotting out our war stories are wounds
to be like, look, tell me I'm valid, Tell me
this is a valid issue. And I don't know, I
just I felt very conflicted over the popularity of the hashtag, which,

(22:33):
by the way, was initially a movement started by a
black activist to Rona Burke, who back in two thousand
six on my Space actually started this me too campaign
as a grassroots movement to aid sexual assault survivors in
underprivileged communities, where quote, according to Ebany, rape crisis centers
and sexual assault workers weren't even going So one thing

(22:55):
to note that when she started this campaign, she wasn't
thinking that it would be a viral campaign or a
has tag that was short lived. Here today, gone tomorrow.
But she says that she's really really happy to see
what's happening now. She says, what's happening now is powerful,
and I salute it and the women who have disclosed.
But the power of using me too has always been
and the fact that it can be a conversation starter
or a whole conversation. But it was us talking to us,

(23:16):
and so she really started this as a black woman
talking to other underprivileged communities. But then she writes on
her website that she felt the need to take this
conversation further. And so while she started it for underprivileged
communities of color because that's who she worked with, she
realized just how prevalent this was and wanted to take
that conversation on a more broader level. I wonder if
we're losing something in mainstreaming it, you know what I mean.

(23:39):
I wonder if we also need to bring a more
specific lens to the conversation around women of color. And
you know, we know that certain women get assaulted little
lot more than other women totally. And I think, you know,
we talked about this in our episode for HBC U
s H Black women are much less likely to report
sexual assault and sex crimes. M I think the conversation

(24:00):
is great, but I'm mindful of who it leaves out, right,
So I think right now the conversation seems to be
very focused on like white powerful a list women. Actually,
it was Jane Fonda who made this point in MSNBC
that so she says it's too bad that it's probably
because so many of the women that were assaulted by
Harvey Weinstein are famous and white and everybody knows them.
This has been going on for a long time to

(24:21):
black women and other women of color, and it doesn't
get out quite the same. And so I think that
she's right in that it is an issue for other communities,
but that perhaps the main streaming of the me too
campaign kind of leave some of those communities out. I
also think that we don't we're not talking about gender
nonconforming folks. Trans women get you know, as we know,

(24:42):
trans folks are much more likely to be assaulted than
the general public. Um. I was so proud to see
Sarah mc bride, who is the National Press Secretary for
the Human Rights Campaign and was actually the first trans
person to speak at the Democratic National Convention, So shout
out to Sarah. Um So. She wrote a whole piece
for Buzzbeat about how when you're trans, sexual assault and
sexual harassment has this added layer because we are told

(25:06):
as a society that transpolkes are gross disgusting and that
no one could ever possibly want to assault them, and
that the narrative around transpolkes is this completely ridiculous stereotype
of a trans person waiting to assault somebody in a bathroom,
which we know is not actually happening. Um So, she writes,
I stayed silent because they knew that. While many survivors
are met with disbelief and doubt when they show their stories,

(25:28):
trans survivors often also face a different kind of disbelief,
one rooted in the perception that trans people are quote
too disgusting to be assaulted. Alleged rapists and sexual harassers
will sometimes insist that they couldn't possibly have done what
they've been accused of because the person accusing them is
too unattractive to merit being assaulted. We've even heard that
defense from our sitting president exactly are sitting president has

(25:48):
said that it makes me want to scream. It boils
my blood. And there's a part of the me to
campaign that I think was most effective in its mass
con some shin, which is it got us all enraged
again because of the sheer volume. So whereas we've lost

(26:09):
some things in the mainstreaming that we need to reclaim,
like a special focus on the experience, the intersectional experience
of being a trans woman, of being a woman of color,
and how it's not all the same for every woman,
we've also gained something in the mass participation, which is
a I think brought our awareness of how commonplace this is.
But be I got enraged all over again and depressed,

(26:32):
quite frankly just seeing the onslaught you know what I mean.
It just felt like too much. It felt like I'm
just I want to I want to find who all
these people are in punched in the face. I'm angry.
I think you're exactly right, and I think you actually
did see some people saying Hey, if it takes millions
and millions and millions of women saying me too for
you to realize this is a problem. What the hell, right,

(26:56):
Why should we as survivors of sexual trauma, sexual crime,
sexual abuse, sexual assault? Why should it be on us
to split open our traumas for the world to see
to get somebody to care? Right? This is that the
first time that we've had a viral campaign about sexual
assaus around women, like hashtag yes all women. We've done
this before, we begged her before, and so I think

(27:17):
one of the criticisms I see, and I think it's
frankly valid, is that if you're the kind of person
who needs to see this amount of trauma, this amount
of labor on the path of survivors, to do something
and see it's a problem, like what is going on exactly?
Bridget And I think it's important to acknowledge that for
every case involving sexual assault or harassment at work, there's

(27:40):
typically more than one party involved. So for every one
of those hashtag me too tweets, you know, where was
the other player? Where was the other person in that equation?
And that's the spotlight that our pal Liz playing friend
of the show, um, she really shed light on a
different take, which was this hashtag him though, Like what

(28:03):
about him? Though? What are we going to talk about him, though,
and really pointing the microphone in a different direction of saying, Okay,
we've heard from plenty of survivors. When are we going
to hear from men? What are we going to hear
from men on this? Yeah? And I think I'm a
big fan of not just having the onus being on
survivors to do the heavy lifting and unpacking and all

(28:25):
of that. But yeah, I almost felt a little bit
exasperated seeing so many men saying I believe you, I
believe you, I believe you. First of all, I don't
think we're doing this to have men believe us, right,
I don't get frankly, I like, I like what you
were about it. I'm like, we're not doing this because
we want you to believe us. We're doing it because

(28:45):
we want you to do something about it, right. And
so I got a little bit irritated watching so many
of my male coworkers and colleagues and friends sort of
virtue signaling by being like, I believe you, I believe you,
I believe you, but then having an end there. And
so I'm not someone who is into just giving validation
shin for a man saying I believe you. I want
you to go further. Make a plan for what you're

(29:05):
gonna do when you see your homeboy do something out
of line. Make a plan for what you're gonna do
when you see sexual harassment in your workplace, even if
you're an underling, make a plan for it. To tell
me what you are going to do to help unpack this.
Don't just pat yourself on the back and be like
heny women, I believe you, do something about it. That's

(29:25):
what I found some interesting about that other hashtag that
popped off from this I did that where the men
actually saying, you know what, it turns out that in
college I actually did make a girl feel uncomfortable, or
it turns out that I was I did have more
power over a woman and I use that to get
her to go on a date with me. Or it
turns out that I did exaggerate my status or my

(29:46):
ability to make something happen for a woman because I
wanted to impress her. And that was kind of gross.
Like it's so easy to pat yourself on the back
and say I'm such a great male feminist, I believe you,
blah blah blah. It's harder to be like, here are
the specific ways that I have contributed to a toxic
culture wherein sexual harassment and sexual assault is commonplace, and
I think it's on us. Has done a really good

(30:09):
job of having that conversation with young men about not
only understanding consent, but understanding the responsibility of intervention when
you see something happening that is not okay and not consensual.
I think we need to have those conversations among grown
ups in the workplace and making sure assistance are not okay,
with being the honey pot to set up a meeting

(30:31):
like that, and making sure drivers are gonna speak out,
because I think power and coercion in the professional domain
is so much more tangible because your salaries on the line,
that that sense of power and the risk you face
for speaking out is so real. That there are these
systemic ways in which we are failing people. Sure we

(30:51):
might be able to curb it on the college campus
level with Joe Biden giving a hell of a speech
about maybe having sex with an unconscious woman isn't central, dudes, Like,
maybe we should all intervene when we see something like
that happening. No, which is sort of every every sort
of emotion that I've come out of these two campaign
it all comes back to know, um, but you know,

(31:13):
seeing the men in my life on my news feed
who said I've just like the women, just like I
was saying to you off air that this has caused
me to go back and review every pseudo sexual encounter
that's ever happened to me in the professional domain or
in college or whatever, and sort of examine was that okay?
I think there are a lot of men out there
who are doing the same, and if there aren't, they

(31:34):
should be. And whether or not you're going to tweet
about it, maybe just ask yourself was that okay? And
if not, how am I going to do something better?
How am I gonna be better? In Michelle Obama's way?
That's yeah, That's the thing. Something that I was really
struck by in watching this campaign take over my personal
feed was people saying things like, oh, I had a
me too status earlier about being sexually harassed and the

(31:56):
guy who was actually harassed me liked it. And I
was like, ball, yeah, just like brain exion, how do
you make I sudn't even I was like, I can't
even make sense of this are the problem is so
bad and the bad actors here are so I don't
even know what I'm saying, like egocentric. I think it's
about them, It's it's we're in such a place when

(32:18):
it comes to the conversation around sexual harassment assault that
the people who are often the perpetrators are not even
seeing themselves in that light. Somebody tweeted at us actually
just the other day um and brought this text message
exchange to light for us between a sexual assault survivor
who had used the status on her Facebook wall to

(32:39):
say me too, and the person who she was talking about,
texting her saying, Hey, I'm just I wanted to let
you know I'm here if you want to talk about this,
and she was like, you're the last person I want
to talk to. And he was like, you know, I
told you that I feel bad about what happened between us.
There was no malicious intent, and you know it's not

(32:59):
fair that we've both keep carrying around the psychological baggage
kidding me. He was like, you know, we should talk
about this and get it off our chest. And she's like, this,
this is not for you to get any sense of
relief from and that's not what I'm here for. Yeah,
that's that's the thing. It's like people who are survivors
are not doing this to make the people who have

(33:22):
implemented trauma on others feel better. I mean, that's that's
the frustration of this campaign too. It's I think it's
more enraging than empowering for me, and I think there's
something worth looking into, and that like why I didn't
feel better when I posted no me too on my
Facebook status. I felt frustrated. I felt like it was

(33:42):
not super empowering, but it was something I felt compelled
to not stay silent about. I'm not here to like
glorify assault or like share my wounds. I feel like
there's something very perverse about this performance of I want
you to know the details of every person who's ever
crossed those boundaries with me. That's voyeuristic. You know at

(34:04):
its core that I'm going to share those details with
the people who I have intimate relationships in my life
as I feel they weren't sharing and no further you
know what I mean. So there's something weird about how
I how I left this campaign feeling, I don't think
you're alone at all. And actually, um, someone wrote into
one of my favorite advice columns Slates Dear Prudence, and
they wrote in feeling angry and triggered and just really

(34:27):
upset by the whole meat to campaigns. So she writes
about how this campaign was feeling really triggering for her
as a rape survivor. Her boss posted on Facebook about
how quote proud he was of all the women sharing
their stories, and she writes, at the same time, I
want to respond. I want to tell people that survivors
don't owe them their stories. I don't want people to
come away from this display of mutual pain and think
that by posting a hashtag they've done enough. I'm feeling

(34:49):
really grossed out by all the men who seems to
have never realized this was a thing until now. I
understand how people will want to pose, but it makes
me furious. I just feel like everything I've gone through
has been reduced down to hashtag so I can tran
done social media, and so I think You're not alone
and feeling like this is this weird, heavy burden where
you're supposed to slit open your wounds for the world

(35:09):
to see. Not everybody feels like that's going to be
an empowering or helpful thing. In their life, and I
think that should be respected exactly, not to mention how
triggering this could be, having multiple people talking about their
trauma and their pain, how triggering this could be for
someone who is dealing with this that kind of thing.
I mean, I know that the day that we were
talking about Weinstein all day on a loop, I had

(35:30):
to I had to leave early because I was just like,
I can't stop thinking about this, and it's all I
can think about. I think we should take a break
because I'm getting enraged and pressed all over again, first
of all, but second of all, the good news is
that there are things we can do about this right
that there are good people who are taking action on
these issues that we can join forces with. And the

(35:53):
hashtag was just the start of the conversation. The hashtag
is by no means the end of activist momentum on this.
It's just the beginning. And as a Woody Allen I believe,
came to the defense of Weinstein saying, I hope this
doesn't trigger a witch hunt. That is exactly what I'm
hoping for. Let's talk more about that after a quick break,

(36:23):
and we're back. We were just getting very righteously angry
about the state of sexual assault and sexual harassment that
we're dealing with here in this country, which is appalling. UM,
We've been talking a lot about Hollywood and media, but
it's important to point out that in no way is
sexual assault and sexual harassment just regulated to those fields.
And so I've actually been really really interested to see

(36:45):
how this Weinstein case has seemingly opened the doors to
other industries having people be called out with their toxic behavior.
And so earlier this week we saw Mark Helpriate at
NBC have a handful of accusations from women that you
worked with at NBC and ABC. UM, just to be
on the record that he masturbated in front of an
ABC News employee in his office and then violently threw

(37:08):
another woman against a restaurant window before attempting to kiss her.
So I just want to make sure like people know
that if those are the kinds of behaviors you hope
won't cause you to be the center of a witch hunt,
think again, because I am excited and motivated for this
witch hunt because this is the kind of bs that

(37:29):
we need to call out and people like that should
not be able to get away with that. As Linda
West wrote in The New York Times hunt and we're
hunting you. It's it's like, oh, I just masturbated in
front of my work. I masturbated in front of a
co worker and throw her up against the wall and
try to kiss her, and not such emotional women are overreacting.

(37:53):
Oh my god. M Also, if you listen to our
Silicon Valley episode, you know that sexual harassment for IT
tech employees is a is a real problem, and so
earlier this week we saw blogger and former Microsoft Tech
evangelist Robert Scobel get some pretty intense allegations from women
saying that he grouped them, that he would attack them,
and he ended up sort of blaming alcoholism for those

(38:16):
for that behavior. That's sad, real, but also not an excuse.
I mean, I don't alcoholism and addiction issues cause a
whole host of things and people's lives. But I think
he can be both like, oh, he has a serious
mental health problem. He needs help, and you're gonna have
to actually like be responsible for your own actions anyway, exactly. Actually,
just yesterday, Kevin spacey Um, he came out that he

(38:41):
had made advances to an actor who was just fourteen
at the time, and you know, people have been there's
been rumors about him for the longest time that he's
been kind of a toxic, predatory person. And I think
that it just goes to show you that it's not
just women, it's it's a prevalent issue for all kinds
of folks. Well, and I guess the community is up
in arms today because his response it was sort of

(39:04):
excuse me, I'm gay, Like I'm going to use that
as the shield. Yeah, being a gay man and making
a sexual advance toward a child, those are two different things.
Like I'm I'm almost horrified that you would try to
conflate them, Like that's almost like a that's a pr
strategy that is so sleazy and toxic that I can't

(39:25):
even believe that someone told him that was a good
idea that like, oh, I will excuse myself trying to
make a sexual advance toward a literal child by saying
I'm gay. What no, no, no, no no no, kind
of like saying you're sweet old president too, right, which
president kind of like George H. W. Bush who last

(39:46):
week after it was made clear that he regularly tells
dirty jokes and then pinches the bottoms of young women
posing in photos next to the former president. His team
released a statement saying, he's just a sweet old guy
who does, in fact pinch women's bottom. That's what I
found so weird, saying he does kind of a break.

(40:11):
That's the thing, that he's a charming old man who
pinches bottoms, And we were all just like, what are
you kidding me? And that just goes to show you
how far we have to go in this conversation. It's
not just about me too. In a world where the
perpetrators would like your status. It's apparently defining what consent

(40:31):
is again and again, and not just for college boys,
president grownass men like George H. W. Bush knowing that
you can't hide behind you're sort of senile behavior as
being an excuse. So as you've been saying, which I
think it goes to show that this is not relegated
to any single industry, It is not relegated to people

(40:54):
of any single sexual orientation. Um. It has everything to
do with power, and it has a lot to do
with what's happening at work, because when people are using
their professional power and influence for a means to course
you into sexual activity that is non consensual, then it's
especially disgusting going off that. Something I found really really

(41:15):
gonna be telling about how bad a situation we're in
with this is that earlier this month, BuzzFeed put out
a call they wanted to know who are the heart
of the wine scenes of your industry? So if you're
you know, a mathematician, who is the guy that everyone
knows as a creep that has been getting away with it?
And I was when I saw that, I was like, yeah, great,
like out these creeps totally like let's do this. I'm in.

(41:36):
That ended up sort of spinning off into what they
called the Media Men List, And this was a crowdsourced
Google doc where it had dozens and dozens of names
of men who had done various inappropriate things and these things.
And I should say it's all allegations. The list makes
it very clear that, um, you know, take the list
with the grain of salt because it's just anonymous allegations,
so you know, know that going in. But what I

(41:58):
found really telling the about this list is that it
ranges from things like sliding into someone's d m s
and being weird to outright you know, assault or rape,
and then things that are not sexual in nature. Like
one of the people who was on the list is
a man who, while his inappropriate behavior was not sexual
in nature, it was like threatening and bullying, and so

(42:19):
it was things like intimidating interns and making them feel
like if they crossed him in some way that he
would retaliate against them. Well, it's funny because it sounds
like this is a tale as old as time, right,
like influence power wielding that influence in power. It happens
every day. It happens everything, and some of it is
illegal and some of it's not totally so it is

(42:39):
you know, I can almost hear the the outcry of
that group that Trump met with which we covered in
the Sexual that's right when we were tackling title nine,
the mothers of accused I'm sorry, falsely accused rapists whose
lives have been ruined because some girl regretted a night

(43:02):
with their boyfriend basically, And I can hear those folks
lighting up there tiki torches already, because torches the line
between white supremacists and my son. You know, yeah, I
can almost like hear the beads of sweat forming on
those folks as brows, because if you think about it,

(43:23):
the democratization of gossip through the Internet can be used powerfully,
and some might argue can be used as a form
of influence and blacklisting, and it can be used in
a retaliatory way, just like we're trying to prevent. Now,
I'm not here saying that that's what that lists about,
but I get the Woody Allen fear of a witch hunt,

(43:44):
and at the same time, I think we need a
lot more of that kind of exposure. Well, I actually
have often argued that the reason why we are seeing
these kinds of watershed moments is exactly because of things
like social media. When you look at Cosby's situation, I
think that Cosby came from an era air It's old Hollywood,
where you can call someone's pr agent and say, hey,
this story, can we have it killed? It's really gonna

(44:06):
be bad for us, And we would never be privy
to any of that because those power players are wealth,
be connected and all of that, And so that's happening
in rooms where most of us will probably never be.
And I think with things like Twitter, it has democratized
people's voices and so people who largely did not have
a platform, did not have a voice, can say hey,
like this happened to me, Hey this wasn't okay. And

(44:28):
a PR person can't call Twitter and say hey, can
you kill this story? That's not how Twitter works. And
so it's kind of this reclaiming of power and influence
and voice and giving it a sort of a more
level playing field where I'll never forget when that story
bubbled up again, there was no one to call. There
was no PR person that you could call to make
everybody stop tweeting about it. It It just was. It existed.

(44:48):
And I don't think you saw that before. That is
such a good point, and I think it's just goes
to show you that when women, especially but but survivors
of assaults across the gender spectrum get together, like your
voice can be powerful. And that's what we saw with
Me Too. But Me Too is just the beginning. And
so solidarity and unified front and sort of acknowledging each

(45:10):
other's differences and the unity is going to be really
critical to make this movement an effective campaign for change.
I could not agree more and so we didn't want
to end without giving you some resources if you're finding
yourself dealing with sexual soult or sexual harassment in general
or in the workplace. Here are a couple of resources
that you should know that you have at your disposal.

(45:32):
UM One is a great organization that I know and
love is the National Women's Law Center. Their number is
two O two eight five one eight. That's two O
two eight five one eighty, and they're really helpful in
terms of coming up with legal resources. If you want
to take legal action against someone who is breaking the
law or or treating you in a way that's inappropriate,

(45:52):
and you want to know what your legal resources are,
there are a great, great, great resource for you. And furthermore,
don't forget to check out the e see the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission, who we are always giving a little
shout out too because our little labor organizer blood in
US can't can't help but mention how influential they have become.

(46:12):
And yes, they are part of the government, so this
is us relying on our taxpayer dollars and actually cashing
in on some of that investment. You can contact them
at one eight hundred six six nine four thousand, that's
one eight hundred six six nine four thousand and search
their website. At eo C dot gov for more. So,

(46:33):
sminty listeners, we want to hear from you. This is
obviously the issue that many many, many of us are
dealing with. How's it showing up in your life? How
did you feel about the me to campaign? Was it
something that you participated in? Why or why not? How
did you feel about it? If you're a dude, did
you take part in campaigns like him though? Or I
did that? How did that go for you? We really
want to hear how these campaigns are showing up in
your spaces. Yeah, I also want to hear where do

(46:55):
you want to see this go? Are you down for
the witch hunt you know what I mean? Like? Or
are you fearful of this becoming an infringement on equal
justice under the law? You know like? Is the power
of gossip in the workplace being harnessed productively? Or do
you fear its accusations? Run them up? I'm intrigued by
how nuanced our path forward really can be, and I'd

(47:16):
love to hear from you, brilliant listeners on what action
you plan on taking. So get in touch with us
on Instagram? Where at stuff mom? Ever? Told you? On Twitter?
We're at mom Stuff podcast, and we love reading your
emails at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com