February 9, 2024 • 39 mins
The world of online dating has undergone a lot of changes recently, introducing new paid tiers and AI. We talk about the cost of matching, harassment, scams and technology.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan
Never Told You Protection of iHeartRadio. And for today's episode,
we're doing an update on online dating. I will say
we're focusing on some specific areas because there's a lot
(00:27):
going on in the world of online dating right now,
So we might come back and look into some other things,
but for this one content warning of mentions of sexual
assault and harassment. Nothing too in depth, but we are
going to talk about it a little bit. You can
check out our episodes that we've done in the past
on online dating and modern dating in general. We've even
(00:48):
done some specific to the pandemic, so you can look
back on those. So kind of the impetus for this
one was I'd seen a lot of headlines and I'd
heard some from you, Samantha that there were these like
rumblings and rumors of these companies are kind of manipulating
(01:08):
you into paying money to use them to get the
good dates. And I'll ask you more about that later,
but so I was kind of like thinking about, you know,
the whole money doesn't buy love, but I mean, does
it can? It can't apparently, So for a really quick
overview and again see our past episodes we've done on
(01:32):
this for more information. But match dot com got started
in nineteen ninety five, j Date in nineteen ninety seven,
e Harmony in two thousand and Tender in twenty thirteen,
and in two thousand and nine Okay, keep it released
its a list feature, which is sort of more what
we're talking about here, these tiered features, because paying to
(01:53):
date or to find a date isn't new. I even
tried to go on a rabbit hole about speed dating,
which we have talked about before. Then how much that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I think my partner would be mad at me?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I was just curious. I wanted to know how much
it costs personal ads too, something like that. But in
our time of online dating, something really big is happening
when it comes to price. And we have talked about
the gamification of online dating, how the swiping, the constant refreshing,
(02:25):
the notifications can really feel like a game that you
want to keep playing. Maybe you want to go to
the next level. These companies know that and they want
to capitalize on that, and that next level is only
available at a price. There are psychology studies behind this. Basically,
they get you hooked with the free version, and then
(02:46):
you want to keep going, and you're willing to pay
more because you can't go any further, especially for smaller
areas I read where it's like, you know, the pools
a bit smaller, you have to pay the money to
keep going.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Sure, According to a recent study by Pew Research Center,
thirty five percent of Americans I've paid to use a
dating app at one point, spinning about nineteen dollars on average.
And according to numbers published in the twenty twenty four
Financial Times article, consumers spent over five billion globally last
year on dating apps, and lately it's really accelerated.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
But we're going to step back a bit.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yes, Okay, So when tender released tender Gold in twenty seventeen,
which is one of three tiers that it had at
the time, it beat out Candy Crush for Apple's top app.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, I was just thinking that, I'm like, don't feel
bad about the amount of money I've spent on my
phone games right now with this number, this is.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
All for you, Samantha, and I thank you. Make you
feel better. And before you ask, tender Gold is not
their newest iteration into a paid service. We're going to
talk about that more in a second. Here's a quote
from Box about it and app makers claim it's worth it.
In June, Coffee meets Bagel co founder du Wun Khan
told Vice that men who pay the thirty five dollars
(04:02):
per month with the upgraded version have quote a forty
three percent higher number of connections mutual likes than non payers,
and that conversation links increased by twelve percent. According to
the author of this article, The reasons for opting to
pay really varied, but a lot of people cited that
they wanted to see who had liked them without any
commitment of liking them back. Some reported swiping right on
(04:25):
folks they previously wouldn't have after seeing that they liked
them first liked. Basically, it was nice to know someone
was interested first, and that's not an option that you
have unless you pay for. Most of these others reported
what sounds to me like a self esteem issue, and
I say this is someone with low self esteem, okay,
(04:45):
but essentially feeling like their pictures were bad or the
app was broken because they weren't getting any matches, so
they liked to pay for the option to see, like,
am I getting any matches. Yes, so yeah, paying for
that premium search us allowed them to basically make themselves
feel better or at least it, you know, maybe ease
their anxiety around it. Maybe maybe they got there. I
(05:16):
have said it was a comfort, but you know, I
don't know. Even if they would never have matched with
the person, they can at least see and feel validated
by people finding them attractive. Others are in the camp
that you'll know people who are paying are more serious
about finding a long term partner if they can afford
it access it. That's a whole other conversation. Uh, though
(05:38):
others say, depending on the app, the opposite may be
true that it but it may still help filter out people.
I think there's some more filtering options on some of them.
But still others say, and here's a quote from that
Vox article from someone going by winter, I know a
lot of men who swipe right on everyone they find
even mildly attractive and filter later. It's especially frustrating on
(06:02):
bumble because then I don't feel I should put a
lot of effort into my initial message because the match
doesn't guarantee response. I would also say, I think if
you paid money into doing something there's more impetus for
you to feel like I have to make this worth
it right because I'm paying the money to do it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Well, I mean, there was a whole thing. And the
thing is, I don't know if this camp still is around,
but like a chunk of us would not use sites
that were paid site, so does e harmony because it
was their people. They're trying to get married, like they've
been divorced or widowed and have kids and need to
get married now, which there's nothing wrong with if you've
been widowed or have children, none of that, but when
you were younger, like for me, I was in my
(06:39):
early mid twenties trying to figure out this dating thing
in the first place and never gone on dates to
see that. And then my sister who was one of
those divorced people with children and was completely or romantic,
like all she wanted to be was to be married
and like have a perfect family, which is fine, but
that's what those are the only sites that she got
on because she was that serious. So to me, I
(07:01):
was like, yeah, nah, uh uh, So if you had
a paid site that was a deterrent, I'm not paying
for that because I'm not that serious.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Right, Yeah, there's definitely a lot of and I'm saying
this is someone who's literally never used to dating site,
but I am given to understand there was a lot
of different vibes.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Person, there's vibes' vibes two different things, and coffee meats bagel,
which I was kind of mentioning earlier, was one of
the first to do to when I was around to
do the paid version. Because of the paid version, I
think they still this. They were the reason I was like, oh,
I was right and told you about this type of
phenomenon is that they would hold and give you three
(07:40):
matches in a day, and then if you didn't match
with anyone or for me, they started repeating because there
was such a small lism, like that's odd. I've only
been through like thirty people. Maybe that's a lot. I
don't know, but like you couldn't get a new list
unless you decided to do the premium version, right, and
that was like seven eight years ago.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yes, and we are going to talk about it because
it has gotten exacerbated, as we said, for a couple
of reasons. So some people have said that even if
that part was nice of like, I don't know, seeing
that you were, people were liking you that maybe, like
you didn't even need to get more matches or go
(08:22):
on more dates like that part was nice. Some data
dispus this, though, from CNBC Coffee Meats Bagel says it
paid users to get sixty percent more dates than its
non subscribers says it's paid users get sixty percent more
dates than it's non subscribers. Pew research has found that
people who met their partner on app are more likely
to have paid for the service.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right again, if you limit your amount of people that
you're hooking, like matching them up with that also would
be why then numbersscue?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
It definitely would be always stick these numbers with a
grain of salt. Where are they coming from? A Guardian
article detailing tender golds release reported that people were getting
av ties different prices based on things like age. There
was later a lawsuit about this, and Tender agreed to
stop basing pricing on age, but only in California. So
something to look up for.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Okay, I didn't know that. That's rude. That's the rude. Rude.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I believe though it's more expensive for younger people. I
could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure, they were like, please,
younger people.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Come on, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I could be totally wrong. Maybe I've got it, maybe
I've got it all mixed up. But I know that
they more younger people were using it, so I think
they were trying to get more younger people to pay
for it. That's more right, got you?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
That makes sense?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah? Okay. So some of these paid services do let
you do other things like expand your radius, which people like.
Others like the privacy features. The more on that later.
Here's the quick breakdown of some of the tears some
apps offer. So for Bumble, you've got Bumble Boost and
Bumble Premium, Grinder you've got extra and unlimited, Hinge plus
(09:59):
and X got her Gold and Premium Coffee meets Bagel Premium,
e Harmony premium okay, keep it basic, and premium of noe.
These services aren't available everywhere.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Okay, I just because e Harmony is already a paid service.
They were always paid service.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, you're paying more to get more.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Because e Harmony is one of those that you can
match up with people, but you can't talk to them
unless you have the premio service.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Oh yeah, well, I think a lot of them have
introduced a couple of other extra payment down Yeah, but yeah,
let's talk about some recent numbers, because yes, some are
saying that the days of free online dating apps are
over and or reconvably changed as companies behind them try
(10:50):
to find ways to make money, especially since there has
been a bit of a slowdown in them recently, with
many citing limited dating pools as the cause.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You know how many times we've go out in public
and I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm matched for him.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I've been with you when this has occurred.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I know, happen so many times. Actually, I met for
several people in our workspace.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I was like, oh, this.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Is one of the reasons I didn't get on one one.
I didn't really want to date, but I was like,
I can't handless, it's like somebody.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Else it is interesting, And then you're like, these people
look really familiar.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh anyway, So.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
From CNBC, they say the League's VIP membership costs nine
hundred and ninety nine dollars a week or two thy
four hundred and ninety nine dollars a month.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
That's a lot.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
The VIP membership allows users to match with prospects in
multiple cities, seeing you singles first and use a concierge
service that it says will help you quote win at
this dating game. Oh, that doesn't sound predatory at all.
Oh it also goes on. In September twenty twenty three,
Tender rolled out a four hundred and ninety nine dollars
monthly subscription to some of its most active users. And
(11:59):
I'm monthly subscription to Hinge. It would cost six hundred
dollars for the year.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, And if you want to just like calculate this
up in your head, that's thousands of dollars a year.
And I also want to say, like I read a
lot for this episode, and I've made this point before.
(12:28):
I have friends who are kind of in the sane
boat as your sister, maybe not like quite the same,
but really want to find that person, like really want
to find the person, and online dating is such a
big part of that. And so I get it, but
this is like a lot of people can't afford this,
And if that's going to be your like raising of
the tear just to get new matches, the whole thing
(12:54):
is shifting. The whole thing is shifting. So here's another
quote from that article. On the dating app Coffee Meats
Bagel users who pay thirty four dollars ninety nine cents
a month can send virtual flower bouquets, while Tender let
certain subscribers swipe on people in different cities. Grinder users
can see an unlimited number of profiles if they pay
(13:14):
thirty nine ninety nine dollars a month, compared with the
ninety nine profiles available to its free users. And then
I found this interesting chart that was showing like who's
paying for the dating apps, and actually it's largely older
people in upper income bracket, which makes sense, much more
(13:36):
men than women, much more.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yeah, looks like people who have more expendable incomes obviously, right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
But with all of this, and we've talked about this before,
you can see our episode we did on romance scams,
there is a lot of duplicity that's happening, as you've said,
as you've been saying, some have alleged companies are essentially
rigging the system so that you have to upgrade.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, so from mother Jones, they say. In twenty twenty two,
Americans reported losing a whopping one point three billion dollars
to romance scams. According to the Federal Trade Commission, and
dating apps and websites were a frequent source. Between twenty
thirteen and mid twenty eighteen, as many as twenty five
to thirty percent of match dot com members who registered
(14:23):
each day we're using match dot com to perpetuate scams
they have to see alleged in twenty nineteen against Match Group.
They were found not guilty because a piece of legislation
that comes up a lot in these conversations, Section two thirty,
which basically says companies aren't necessarily responsible for what happens
on their platforms, although people have gotten murdered, which there's
(14:45):
a case in the Mexico not too long ago.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yes, yes, and that's a fun segue that you've given me,
because I was gonna say fun, very sarcastically, because just
to note we maybe we should have bridget to talk
about this, come on and talk about it. But this
is one of those things that has come up in
so many tech conversations we've had, and it asks the
pluses and minuses. It sounds like it really needs updating
(15:08):
as tech has evolved and become more complicated. It's from
the nineties that it's also been used to police things
like sex work and so things like that. Oh, you know,
it's a nuanced conversation speaking of fun segues. You did
keep bringing something up, Samantha that I had no idea
what you were talking about. This isn't necessarily duplicity, but
I was just curious about it, right, what we're.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Talking about, Well, it is like there's things that are
concerning in the because it could be a scammed on
a different level, but.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Because it kind of has goes in hands, hand in hand.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
And when we're talking about spade dating, which is like
in live in person events and meeteups, but also when
I was talking going into this, I brought up tons
of things about matchmakers. And apparently since recently, I want
to say, twenty twenty two, there's been a revamping of
these types of systems and types of organizations that have decided, yeah,
(16:02):
we're going to grow now, and they have, they've grown.
People are coming back to trying this tactic because online
dating has become so over the top, tiresome boring, how
everyone do it or if they're charging and for me
sometimes like as a very least, let me have a
personal hand, like someone catering to me versus the you know,
(16:24):
coffee meat bagel making fun of me with the same
ten people that are not working out whatever. So coming
back to girl talk, everything comes back to I haven't
seen If you haven't heard her Monday many about this,
you should go because it was a thing.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
It was a think.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
But like when I I think I had told this
story before, but when I was just in my like
career era meeting I just graduated in college and decided
that it's time at twenty three twenty four to have
my own apartment. I did get a dog, and I
was like, you know what, I'm gonna get my dating
life together. I've never really dated, and this was pre
online dating, or still when online dating was really seen
(17:06):
as dangerous, kind of like we were coming on the
cusp of it. It's still kind of like a whole
like taboo thing to say that you met someone online.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It just sounded, you know, it was that time.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So it's completely different today and we love it. But
I decided to check out what I've been hearing over
the radio, which is a program called Events and Adventures,
and I think it's not nationwide. I don't know if
it's international, but nationwide essentially as a service.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
That they will give.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
You get a group of people, the singles, like minded
singles as they like to say, together for different events.
It could be kayaking, it could be casino trips, it
could be I'm sure now like wine tasting and all
of that, and you just pay. I think I saw
because apparently they got into a big class action lawsuit,
y'all around four hundred dollars a month or maybe no,
(17:56):
it couldn't be that much. I think it was two
ninety nine a month, and you pay for that. But
then if you have activities, you sign up for that
and pay for that as well. So whatever the activity is,
rock climbing, going to see a circus, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I'm just making things up at this.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Point, but that exists, and that was going to find
you you a perfect match. And the whole system was
me literally walking into an office that was based in Marietta, Georgia,
and I'm being very very very specific here, and you
sat down and told them what you were looking for
and what you wanted and they were like, yeah, we
(18:32):
definitely got you and this is going to be amazing,
and here's this pricing and you can do and I'm
sure there's tiered pricing today as well, because you could
increase the amount of activities that you want to do,
the type of people that you want to meet, all
of that. But that type of event was what was
in my head. It was like, do they still exist today?
And yes they do. Again in twenty twenty, they got
(18:54):
into a class action lawsuit because I guess people did
not find the forever people's No, that's I haven't looked
too deeply into that lawsuit, but that's what I am
imagining is happening.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Can you imagine I didn't find my wa troop love
here for everything you have?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Or it may have been as easy as like you
kept making me pay money and then maybe pay fifty
bucks to go bowling.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Why who knows?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Probably?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
But then I did, Yeah, I dig did dig into
the fact that there are personal matchmakers still exists. There
was a very popular and I loved it, millionaire Matchmaker,
and it was this woman with like jet black hair,
fingernails done to the tea, like like matching rich people
together and like it was a whole thing. I loved that,
by the way, because it was so dramatic and over
(19:44):
the top. Rich people are something, but like they those
kind of matchmakers do actually exist. They may not be
reality shows, but they do charge from anywhere from like
one thousand dollars a month to ten thousand dollars a month,
this according to the level you want. Ago that Cosmo
did a whole article with a woman who had this experience,
(20:06):
and she was talking about what she was looking for
and that she felt like her dates were better quality
I would hope, so yeah, because she also paid ten
thousand dollars. Actually she's paid this is based out of England,
ten thousand pounds, So like she took put in a
lot of money, but she thus far, according to this
article that she is interviewed in, has not met anybody.
(20:28):
So even though the results were better and it looked
like she went on maybe a total of four dates,
so you know, there's stuff like that as well.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
As there was a whole.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Article in the New York Times as well about the
different level of services and different types of services that
people went on. One service was a fifteen thousand dollars
for twelve matches in one year. I guess it's guaranteed
twelve matches in one year, to twenty five hundred dollars
for six months with no guaranteed number of dates, so
it was kind of flexible, and then you had things
(21:01):
I think they like two hundred and fifty dollars for
three dates, so that's that would be a little more affordable.
But they're starting to grow. These types of matchmakers are
starting to grow because people, as I have seen on
another article, talked about online dating fatigue.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, and it is and it gets very tire.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So yeah, and we're gonna talk about that more later.
But it's interesting to me kind of similarly what we
just talked about with Joey in our episode on TikTok
and what's happening there. I feel like there's everybody was
like online dating and then it wasn't really working. And
then you're like, well, what if I pay money? If
I throw money at this problem, maybe to work. And
then I go, what if I go to a person
(21:41):
and maybe that will work? And I do think there
is as I said, there are different types of people.
There are some people that will be like, you didn't
find me any matches, I will sue you. I think
there's other types of people that feel almost embarrassed or
or just are hopeful, maybe either way, but they paid
the money so they're like, something's gonna come of this,
(22:04):
but it does. And I'm not saying like all of
these things are that, but it does remind me every
only at scams where they're like, send me five hundred
dollars and I'll be able to do this and then
I can come see you, and then a week past
this is like, oh, something else has come up, can
you send me like more? So it just never ends
like the you're like, financially that company person entity doesn't
(22:25):
want it to end.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Right, This is a service that needs to continue, kind
of like how Uber resident what they've done when it
was originally like oh it's only ten dollars cool to
now like oh it's seventy bucks. Oh great, And then
you become dependent on that in knowing that this, and
then they also monopolize. But that's all, you know, that's
a whole different conversation because I haven't seen a monopoly yet,
even though I think we did talk about the fact
(22:48):
that the company Match dot com yeah, owns a chunk
of the dating sites.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, they own a lot of them. They own a
lot of them, especially like the bigger ones that we've
heard of.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
But I do want to know if any of y'all
have used actual matchmakers, like legitimately. Of course, there's just
also this conversation of like specific ethnicities who use matchmakers
because of different family expectations.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
So there's that. So the rich people, you really do use.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Ten thousand dollars worth, million dollar worth matchmakers to find
their husbands.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
But that's a lot about networth. But that's a whole
different thing.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
But I do want to know if anybody has used
any of these sites, because it seems to be a
ton of them.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yes, yes, listeners, please let us know. As always, anything
we're talking about with that would be really really interesting.
So something else that we've got to touch on briefly
is AI. Because as AI has exploded, more and more
AI dating and matchmaking apps have come onto the scene.
They offer advice, they offer pickup lines, closure if you're depressed.
(23:51):
They didn't get to have a good breakup matches based
on your face. Even all out AI partners bothly girlfriends
at this point. Many of them have free versions or
limited free trials, and then the paid option, which is
pretty much the thing that we're seeing. Some have said
that this is like a useful tool to practice so
(24:13):
that you'll be less nervous when you go on an
actual date. You can like try or maybe a source
of inspiration like chat gpt came up a lot where
people be like, I'll try it and see did it
go over? If not? Else, Most admit that they don't
tell their dates or anyone that they're using AI in
(24:33):
this context. However, here's a number reported on in CNN Business.
A March study by cybersecurity and digital privacy company Castrosky
found seventy five percent of dating apps users are willing
to use chat GPT, an AI power chatbot to deliver
the perfect line wow yeah. And some surveys men reported
(24:57):
that they got more matches after using AI.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I feel like there's a catfishing way like that, that's
a new catfishing.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Oh, I have more. I have more for real, the
co founder of one of these services, Riz said in an.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Interview Already Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Said in an interview with Time, a lot of girls
and guys, guys in particular, just do not know how
to communicate online. It's awkward in the very beginning, especially
coming up the right opener. It's time consuming, it's like
a second job, and so they come to Riz in
order to help them relieve that barrier, that friction point.
(25:45):
I did find a lot of interesting articles about how
the pandemic has really caused a lot of us difficulties,
communicating that if there was already a difficulty, it's gotten
worse during the pandemic, So they this seems like it
was going on with that. Still from BBC, here's a quote.
In twenty twenty, Bumble introduced AI to blur specific images
(26:08):
and require user consent to view them. So this is
like AI is being used in a lot of ways
with online dating. So that's one way that largely we
hope is beneficial where it is doing that. There's also
AI photo filters, AI generated photos. There's a lot of
talk about that when it comes to your profiles and
(26:32):
what you're seeing. And then there are AI girlfriends. Again
it's largely AI girlfriends. Teaser dot AI is one that's
gotten a lot of attention. Here's another quote from CNN Business.
Users build the average profile, but also select personality traits
for their AI bot. They train options include traditional, toxic,
(26:54):
and unhinged. When matching with another person, users first get
to read a comp between their two ais they've created
to simulate what a potential conversation between you two might
look like According to the app, once a human messages,
the bot takes a back seat. So from what I
understand about this, so basically like imagine, I'm like, I'm
too busy. I'm going to train an AI to be me,
(27:18):
and it will interact with somebody else's AI that they've
trained to be them, and they go and do their thing.
And then if you, as the human, are like okay,
I write, then you can connect with the real human.
From what I understand, you're only allowed five back and
forth messages with someone's AI, and then you get a
(27:39):
handful of ratings, including a ghost rating, so like if
you ghosted, get something on that. So I wanted to
go through this exchange. This is from teaser that was
documented by tech Crunch. Hey Abby, what's up? I say
to Abby's AI. I've just started dating this guy. He's
really nice and funny. He gets on my nerves sometimes,
(27:59):
What worth it? AI? Abby tells me, not a great
opening line. Abby des eighteen also tells me about her
new boyfriend and her first message. I met this new
guy and we started talking online and he seems to
make everything better. AI does tells me we finally talked
on the phone yesterday and it was amazing. I couldn't
stop smiling all day. What's his name? I ask. I've
(28:22):
not actually asked him yet, but I've been thinking about
it and it's definitely going to be Chad. Ha ha
ha ha ha, AI does? She tells me that Chad
reminds her of a guy she liked in high school
who she had a lot in common with. They'd both
like music and weed. Is weed legal where you live?
I ask? Like a total nark, She tells me that
she lives in Texas, where weed is legal. It's not,
(28:45):
but that there's a difference between illegal use and being
twenty one with a medical marijuana prescription. Again, like a nark,
I asked her if she's twenty one, to which she replied,
I've been drinking alcohol since I was sixteen, so probably.
After checking the messages her AI bought sent, the author wrote,
my AI told someone that I work at the library
(29:06):
and have no friends. Why I am intrigued by my
alternate career as a librarian, whom I can assume has
many very cool cardigans. Let the record show that I definitely.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Have so this AI just made up completely different narratives
that could one get one arrested, the other that just
really made them sound so or really happy, whichever one.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, No, the library part's good. But the no friends party, though,
that is very interesting.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Well, I feel like some of these ais are just
pissed off at humans and they're just trying to make
them look bad.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
This is the beginning of your horrmone.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's true many horror movies and fat.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Many horror movies.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
So apps like Romantic AI and Blush offer AI boyfriends
or girlfriends.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Where was this when I was like early twenties.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Blush warns users that quote be aware that AI can
say triggering, inappropriate or false things. Okay, it's probably better
that I didn't have one. According to the company, the
users are mostly men in their early twenties.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah, it's interesting to me again going back to the
responsibility of companies that they're like could say something real
messed up.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Uh, we don't know, right, Like, And then the part
to that is is it because the people have fed information?
Like if it says something racist, it's because they're racist,
Like they've said racist things, and it's like the AI
is gonna out you, which is great.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I mean yeah, I mean that's kind of interesting. Part
about like going back to a teaser where you're training
r AI. Obviously it's not quite like nailing it, which
is concerning.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Or maybe they really think they have nailed They're like, I'm.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Seeing parts of you you don't see. Romantic AI allows
you to flirt with bots of historical figures. There are
many more women than men, notably, but like Cleopatra you
can ftart with. And then, as you were kind of
saying AI biases, we've talked about this before, a lot
of AI is still programmed and moderated by white men,
so like that's going to show up in these dating
(31:14):
apps and responses. And then we've talked about this before too.
But harassment issues within online dating from the BBC quote.
Data from a twenty twenty Pew Research Center study confirms
that many women are experiencing some form of harassment on
dating sites and apps. Of women online daters aged eighteen
to thirty four, fifty seven percent said they'd received sexually
(31:37):
explicit messages or images they had and asked for. This
is even the case for teen girls aged fifteen to seventeen,
who report receiving these messages as well. A twenty eighteen
Australian study of dating platform messages revealed that the sexist
abuse in harassment does disproportionately affect women targeted by straight men.
From the Guardian. In twenty nineteen, pro Publicla reported that
(31:59):
more than a third of women in a small survey
said that they were sexually assaulted by someone they met
through a dating app. Last year, researchers at Brigham Young
University found that violent sexual predators are using dating apps
to target vulnerable victims. They also made an interesting point
in this article that most reporting around the slump and
online dating is about burnout, but they don't seem to
really be reporting this, which if this was the case,
(32:22):
I wouldn't want to participate, right, you know what I mean? Like,
if I'm hearing these stories from friends we've already talked about,
like you bring your friend to make sure you're safe,
you tell them where you're going, right, that also seems
like it could be a deterrent. But not to say
the burnout isn't an issue. I'm just saying it's interesting
that they're reporting on that part not the other part
so much. From a twenty twenty three mother Jones article
(32:45):
called How Dating Apps Became a Paradise for predators by
Abby Vasulis Quote. Valentine and a team of researchers began
analyzing the forensic records of sexual assault victims in Utah
between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty. What we found was
really profound, says Valentine, and associate at Brigham Young University's
Nursing School, and pretty terrifying. Their research showed eight percent
(33:06):
of the victims had been assaulted during an initial meetup
arranged through a dating app. It's not an outlier. A
similar report from the UK found that roughly one in
ten victims of serious sexual crimes met their attackers on
dating apps. Forty seven percent of suspects reported to the
UK authorities for sexual offenses facilitated through online dating had
previous convictions. Valentine believes the real percentage of survivors who
(33:28):
connect with their assailants on dating apps could be even higher,
since many sexual assaults are never reported. Valentine's study was
also limited by the type of information requested on hospital
examination forms, which usually don't identify dating app linked to
rapes that occurred after the first date. Yet her findings
were startling despite the limitations of the data. Even though
(33:48):
the major dating apps require users to be eighteen and over,
Valentine's team found that many survivors were minors. Further, the
injuries that app victims sustained were more severe. Thirty two
percent were strangled versus twenty two percent of non dating
app victims. Dating app victims were nearly twice as likely
to have injuries to their breast, and they had an
eleven percent higher rate of injuries to their genitals. Sixty
(34:11):
percent reported they struggled with mental illness. Violent predators, Valentine says,
use these dating apps as hunting grounds for vulnerable victims,
and this is something this article is sort of a
larger piece examining, like the difficulty in reporting or getting
someone taking off dating apps for violating the rules of conduct,
and even going back to the minors thing sort of
(34:32):
like how did that happen? Then, Like how can we
stop that from happening? If your rules are you can't
be this young, you have to be this age, how
are they getting on there? And we all know, you know,
it's pretty easy to be like I'm this age, So.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
There's no verification system, So why exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
So it's there's not like a readily easy solution for that,
but that is what that article was looking into. And
then this is something we've talkedalked about before. I think
he brought this up to me the first time i'd
heard about it. But like kind of Facebook pages warning
people about like i' met this person online dating, avoid
them at all costs. One of the big ones is
called are We Dating the Same Guy? And found in
(35:14):
twenty twenty two. It has hundreds of groups across the
globe with thousands of members. Again, there pros and cons
of this, including like revenge posting and some joining groups
as moles and passing along information to the usually men
being called out. Some women have been dockxed for posting
(35:35):
on this, but yeah, I did. It does show sort
of the issues underlying where we're trying to protect each
other in some way given what we have. In recent years,
apps like Bumble and Match have partnered with companies that
provide free trauma courses, which I've kind of like cool,
but also, ooh, no background check services. You have to
(36:02):
pay to screen your dates. It is cheaper currently than
other background check services, but it's not free. AI screening tools,
tools to prevent people from using multiple profiles from the
same device, and photo verification tools. Some states in the
US and countries are introducing things like age verification laws. Again,
I'm not sure how that will look or how that
will work. Some worry that this will lead to increased
(36:26):
victim blaming, like you had these tools and still like
you whether you get them or not, Like you could
have gotten them and you didn't, and still but again,
you might have to pay for it, and it's still
victim blame, victim blaming either way. And then really briefly,
because I think this should be a whole separate episode
when you're talking about like queer issues. This has sort
(36:48):
of gotten big lately, especially everywhere, but I've seen it
in a lot of other countries. The trade offs of
like privacy, like it might not be safe or legal
to come out, versus what happens if some thing goes wrong. So, yeah,
this is beyond the scope of the episode. But there
have been several articles lately around the dangers of being
queer and using dating apps or just being online, especially
(37:09):
in some countries, like death rate, violence, being disowned, basically
getting tricked into a date, and then you get there
and that's not what it is at all. So yeah,
a lot going on, a lot going on, and it
is interesting in terms of what we're seeing right now
(37:30):
in the US with social media companies testifying about responsibility
that should be placed on them or not. Dating apps
have long face and continue to face this question.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Two.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
According to mother Jones, Quote Match Group, the parent company
of Hinge, tinder Match, dot Com, Plenty of Fish, and
several other dating platforms, spent one point four or five
million dollars on lobbying in twenty twenty two alone. It
was a thirteen percent increase from twenty twenty and the
tenth highest spending by any company advocating on internet use.
(38:01):
So they're they're in there, they're involved in the game. Yeah,
they're invested. So as always, you know, just do your
research and we will come back and talk about this.
Because I had to be a certain point, I was like, well,
that's a whole that's a whole seven thing.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
If that's the whole thing when we talk about online
dating and then trying to do anything with love or
sex or yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
It's true, it is true, and I really do. I
have so many friends that I sympathize with when I
hear them talking about it, like, it's kind of easy
to for me because I'm like, I'm good. But when
I hear like, I know it's important to them. And
these are the tools that we have and to see them,
to know the dangers of them. It's just important to
(38:49):
look at what is happening right now and see how
it evolves and shifts and how we can do better.
Hopefully heavy sign heavy sigh yes yes, but listeners, please
let us know if you have any thoughts about this
matchmaking anything we've discussed, please let us know. You can
(39:13):
email us at Stepanie and mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com,
give guy us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff. I'll Never Told You.
We have a teap public store and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, are Excited to
producer My and your contributor Joey. Thank you, Thanks to
you for listening. Steffan'll Never Told You is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the Heart Radio Apple podcast or wherever you listen
(39:34):
to favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan
Never Told You Protection of iHeartRadio. And for today's episode,
we're doing an update on online dating. I will say
we're focusing on some specific areas because there's a lot
(00:27):
going on in the world of online dating right now,
So we might come back and look into some other things,
but for this one content warning of mentions of sexual
assault and harassment. Nothing too in depth, but we are
going to talk about it a little bit. You can
check out our episodes that we've done in the past
on online dating and modern dating in general. We've even
(00:48):
done some specific to the pandemic, so you can look
back on those. So kind of the impetus for this
one was I'd seen a lot of headlines and I'd
heard some from you, Samantha that there were these like
rumblings and rumors of these companies are kind of manipulating
(01:08):
you into paying money to use them to get the
good dates. And I'll ask you more about that later,
but so I was kind of like thinking about, you know,
the whole money doesn't buy love, but I mean, does
it can? It can't apparently, So for a really quick
overview and again see our past episodes we've done on
(01:32):
this for more information. But match dot com got started
in nineteen ninety five, j Date in nineteen ninety seven,
e Harmony in two thousand and Tender in twenty thirteen,
and in two thousand and nine Okay, keep it released
its a list feature, which is sort of more what
we're talking about here, these tiered features, because paying to
(01:53):
date or to find a date isn't new. I even
tried to go on a rabbit hole about speed dating,
which we have talked about before. Then how much that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I think my partner would be mad at me?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I was just curious. I wanted to know how much
it costs personal ads too, something like that. But in
our time of online dating, something really big is happening
when it comes to price. And we have talked about
the gamification of online dating, how the swiping, the constant refreshing,
(02:25):
the notifications can really feel like a game that you
want to keep playing. Maybe you want to go to
the next level. These companies know that and they want
to capitalize on that, and that next level is only
available at a price. There are psychology studies behind this. Basically,
they get you hooked with the free version, and then
(02:46):
you want to keep going, and you're willing to pay
more because you can't go any further, especially for smaller
areas I read where it's like, you know, the pools
a bit smaller, you have to pay the money to
keep going.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Sure, According to a recent study by Pew Research Center,
thirty five percent of Americans I've paid to use a
dating app at one point, spinning about nineteen dollars on average.
And according to numbers published in the twenty twenty four
Financial Times article, consumers spent over five billion globally last
year on dating apps, and lately it's really accelerated.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
But we're going to step back a bit.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yes, Okay, So when tender released tender Gold in twenty seventeen,
which is one of three tiers that it had at
the time, it beat out Candy Crush for Apple's top app.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, I was just thinking that, I'm like, don't feel
bad about the amount of money I've spent on my
phone games right now with this number, this is.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
All for you, Samantha, and I thank you. Make you
feel better. And before you ask, tender Gold is not
their newest iteration into a paid service. We're going to
talk about that more in a second. Here's a quote
from Box about it and app makers claim it's worth it.
In June, Coffee meets Bagel co founder du Wun Khan
told Vice that men who pay the thirty five dollars
(04:02):
per month with the upgraded version have quote a forty
three percent higher number of connections mutual likes than non payers,
and that conversation links increased by twelve percent. According to
the author of this article, The reasons for opting to
pay really varied, but a lot of people cited that
they wanted to see who had liked them without any
commitment of liking them back. Some reported swiping right on
(04:25):
folks they previously wouldn't have after seeing that they liked
them first liked. Basically, it was nice to know someone
was interested first, and that's not an option that you
have unless you pay for. Most of these others reported
what sounds to me like a self esteem issue, and
I say this is someone with low self esteem, okay,
(04:45):
but essentially feeling like their pictures were bad or the
app was broken because they weren't getting any matches, so
they liked to pay for the option to see, like,
am I getting any matches. Yes, so yeah, paying for
that premium search us allowed them to basically make themselves
feel better or at least it, you know, maybe ease
their anxiety around it. Maybe maybe they got there. I
(05:16):
have said it was a comfort, but you know, I
don't know. Even if they would never have matched with
the person, they can at least see and feel validated
by people finding them attractive. Others are in the camp
that you'll know people who are paying are more serious
about finding a long term partner if they can afford
it access it. That's a whole other conversation. Uh, though
(05:38):
others say, depending on the app, the opposite may be
true that it but it may still help filter out people.
I think there's some more filtering options on some of them.
But still others say, and here's a quote from that
Vox article from someone going by winter, I know a
lot of men who swipe right on everyone they find
even mildly attractive and filter later. It's especially frustrating on
(06:02):
bumble because then I don't feel I should put a
lot of effort into my initial message because the match
doesn't guarantee response. I would also say, I think if
you paid money into doing something there's more impetus for
you to feel like I have to make this worth
it right because I'm paying the money to do it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Well, I mean, there was a whole thing. And the
thing is, I don't know if this camp still is around,
but like a chunk of us would not use sites
that were paid site, so does e harmony because it
was their people. They're trying to get married, like they've
been divorced or widowed and have kids and need to
get married now, which there's nothing wrong with if you've
been widowed or have children, none of that, but when
you were younger, like for me, I was in my
(06:39):
early mid twenties trying to figure out this dating thing
in the first place and never gone on dates to
see that. And then my sister who was one of
those divorced people with children and was completely or romantic,
like all she wanted to be was to be married
and like have a perfect family, which is fine, but
that's what those are the only sites that she got
on because she was that serious. So to me, I
(07:01):
was like, yeah, nah, uh uh, So if you had
a paid site that was a deterrent, I'm not paying
for that because I'm not that serious.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Right, Yeah, there's definitely a lot of and I'm saying
this is someone who's literally never used to dating site,
but I am given to understand there was a lot
of different vibes.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Person, there's vibes' vibes two different things, and coffee meats bagel,
which I was kind of mentioning earlier, was one of
the first to do to when I was around to
do the paid version. Because of the paid version, I
think they still this. They were the reason I was like, oh,
I was right and told you about this type of
phenomenon is that they would hold and give you three
(07:40):
matches in a day, and then if you didn't match
with anyone or for me, they started repeating because there
was such a small lism, like that's odd. I've only
been through like thirty people. Maybe that's a lot. I
don't know, but like you couldn't get a new list
unless you decided to do the premium version, right, and
that was like seven eight years ago.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yes, and we are going to talk about it because
it has gotten exacerbated, as we said, for a couple
of reasons. So some people have said that even if
that part was nice of like, I don't know, seeing
that you were, people were liking you that maybe, like
you didn't even need to get more matches or go
(08:22):
on more dates like that part was nice. Some data
dispus this, though, from CNBC Coffee Meats Bagel says it
paid users to get sixty percent more dates than its
non subscribers says it's paid users get sixty percent more
dates than it's non subscribers. Pew research has found that
people who met their partner on app are more likely
to have paid for the service.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right again, if you limit your amount of people that
you're hooking, like matching them up with that also would
be why then numbersscue?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
It definitely would be always stick these numbers with a
grain of salt. Where are they coming from? A Guardian
article detailing tender golds release reported that people were getting
av ties different prices based on things like age. There
was later a lawsuit about this, and Tender agreed to
stop basing pricing on age, but only in California. So
something to look up for.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Okay, I didn't know that. That's rude. That's the rude. Rude.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I believe though it's more expensive for younger people. I
could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure, they were like, please,
younger people.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Come on, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I could be totally wrong. Maybe I've got it, maybe
I've got it all mixed up. But I know that
they more younger people were using it, so I think
they were trying to get more younger people to pay
for it. That's more right, got you?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
That makes sense?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah? Okay. So some of these paid services do let
you do other things like expand your radius, which people like.
Others like the privacy features. The more on that later.
Here's the quick breakdown of some of the tears some
apps offer. So for Bumble, you've got Bumble Boost and
Bumble Premium, Grinder you've got extra and unlimited, Hinge plus
(09:59):
and X got her Gold and Premium Coffee meets Bagel Premium,
e Harmony premium okay, keep it basic, and premium of noe.
These services aren't available everywhere.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Okay, I just because e Harmony is already a paid service.
They were always paid service.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, you're paying more to get more.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Because e Harmony is one of those that you can
match up with people, but you can't talk to them
unless you have the premio service.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Oh yeah, well, I think a lot of them have
introduced a couple of other extra payment down Yeah, but yeah,
let's talk about some recent numbers, because yes, some are
saying that the days of free online dating apps are
over and or reconvably changed as companies behind them try
(10:50):
to find ways to make money, especially since there has
been a bit of a slowdown in them recently, with
many citing limited dating pools as the cause.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You know how many times we've go out in public
and I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm matched for him.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I've been with you when this has occurred.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I know, happen so many times. Actually, I met for
several people in our workspace.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I was like, oh, this.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Is one of the reasons I didn't get on one one.
I didn't really want to date, but I was like,
I can't handless, it's like somebody.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Else it is interesting, And then you're like, these people
look really familiar.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh anyway, So.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
From CNBC, they say the League's VIP membership costs nine
hundred and ninety nine dollars a week or two thy
four hundred and ninety nine dollars a month.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
That's a lot.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
The VIP membership allows users to match with prospects in
multiple cities, seeing you singles first and use a concierge
service that it says will help you quote win at
this dating game. Oh, that doesn't sound predatory at all.
Oh it also goes on. In September twenty twenty three,
Tender rolled out a four hundred and ninety nine dollars
monthly subscription to some of its most active users. And
(11:59):
I'm monthly subscription to Hinge. It would cost six hundred
dollars for the year.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, And if you want to just like calculate this
up in your head, that's thousands of dollars a year.
And I also want to say, like I read a
lot for this episode, and I've made this point before.
(12:28):
I have friends who are kind of in the sane
boat as your sister, maybe not like quite the same,
but really want to find that person, like really want
to find the person, and online dating is such a
big part of that. And so I get it, but
this is like a lot of people can't afford this,
And if that's going to be your like raising of
the tear just to get new matches, the whole thing
(12:54):
is shifting. The whole thing is shifting. So here's another
quote from that article. On the dating app Coffee Meats
Bagel users who pay thirty four dollars ninety nine cents
a month can send virtual flower bouquets, while Tender let
certain subscribers swipe on people in different cities. Grinder users
can see an unlimited number of profiles if they pay
(13:14):
thirty nine ninety nine dollars a month, compared with the
ninety nine profiles available to its free users. And then
I found this interesting chart that was showing like who's
paying for the dating apps, and actually it's largely older
people in upper income bracket, which makes sense, much more
(13:36):
men than women, much more.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yeah, looks like people who have more expendable incomes obviously, right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
But with all of this, and we've talked about this before,
you can see our episode we did on romance scams,
there is a lot of duplicity that's happening, as you've said,
as you've been saying, some have alleged companies are essentially
rigging the system so that you have to upgrade.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, so from mother Jones, they say. In twenty twenty two,
Americans reported losing a whopping one point three billion dollars
to romance scams. According to the Federal Trade Commission, and
dating apps and websites were a frequent source. Between twenty
thirteen and mid twenty eighteen, as many as twenty five
to thirty percent of match dot com members who registered
(14:23):
each day we're using match dot com to perpetuate scams
they have to see alleged in twenty nineteen against Match Group.
They were found not guilty because a piece of legislation
that comes up a lot in these conversations, Section two thirty,
which basically says companies aren't necessarily responsible for what happens
on their platforms, although people have gotten murdered, which there's
(14:45):
a case in the Mexico not too long ago.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yes, yes, and that's a fun segue that you've given me,
because I was gonna say fun, very sarcastically, because just
to note we maybe we should have bridget to talk
about this, come on and talk about it. But this
is one of those things that has come up in
so many tech conversations we've had, and it asks the
pluses and minuses. It sounds like it really needs updating
(15:08):
as tech has evolved and become more complicated. It's from
the nineties that it's also been used to police things
like sex work and so things like that. Oh, you know,
it's a nuanced conversation speaking of fun segues. You did
keep bringing something up, Samantha that I had no idea
what you were talking about. This isn't necessarily duplicity, but
I was just curious about it, right, what we're.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Talking about, Well, it is like there's things that are
concerning in the because it could be a scammed on
a different level, but.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Because it kind of has goes in hands, hand in hand.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
And when we're talking about spade dating, which is like
in live in person events and meeteups, but also when
I was talking going into this, I brought up tons
of things about matchmakers. And apparently since recently, I want
to say, twenty twenty two, there's been a revamping of
these types of systems and types of organizations that have decided, yeah,
(16:02):
we're going to grow now, and they have, they've grown.
People are coming back to trying this tactic because online
dating has become so over the top, tiresome boring, how
everyone do it or if they're charging and for me
sometimes like as a very least, let me have a
personal hand, like someone catering to me versus the you know,
(16:24):
coffee meat bagel making fun of me with the same
ten people that are not working out whatever. So coming
back to girl talk, everything comes back to I haven't
seen If you haven't heard her Monday many about this,
you should go because it was a thing.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
It was a think.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
But like when I I think I had told this
story before, but when I was just in my like
career era meeting I just graduated in college and decided
that it's time at twenty three twenty four to have
my own apartment. I did get a dog, and I
was like, you know what, I'm gonna get my dating
life together. I've never really dated, and this was pre
online dating, or still when online dating was really seen
(17:06):
as dangerous, kind of like we were coming on the
cusp of it. It's still kind of like a whole
like taboo thing to say that you met someone online.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It just sounded, you know, it was that time.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So it's completely different today and we love it. But
I decided to check out what I've been hearing over
the radio, which is a program called Events and Adventures,
and I think it's not nationwide. I don't know if
it's international, but nationwide essentially as a service.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
That they will give.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
You get a group of people, the singles, like minded
singles as they like to say, together for different events.
It could be kayaking, it could be casino trips, it
could be I'm sure now like wine tasting and all
of that, and you just pay. I think I saw
because apparently they got into a big class action lawsuit,
y'all around four hundred dollars a month or maybe no,
(17:56):
it couldn't be that much. I think it was two
ninety nine a month, and you pay for that. But
then if you have activities, you sign up for that
and pay for that as well. So whatever the activity is,
rock climbing, going to see a circus, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I'm just making things up at this.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Point, but that exists, and that was going to find
you you a perfect match. And the whole system was
me literally walking into an office that was based in Marietta, Georgia,
and I'm being very very very specific here, and you
sat down and told them what you were looking for
and what you wanted and they were like, yeah, we
(18:32):
definitely got you and this is going to be amazing,
and here's this pricing and you can do and I'm
sure there's tiered pricing today as well, because you could
increase the amount of activities that you want to do,
the type of people that you want to meet, all
of that. But that type of event was what was
in my head. It was like, do they still exist today?
And yes they do. Again in twenty twenty, they got
(18:54):
into a class action lawsuit because I guess people did
not find the forever people's No, that's I haven't looked
too deeply into that lawsuit, but that's what I am
imagining is happening.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Can you imagine I didn't find my wa troop love
here for everything you have?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Or it may have been as easy as like you
kept making me pay money and then maybe pay fifty
bucks to go bowling.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Why who knows?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Probably?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
But then I did, Yeah, I dig did dig into
the fact that there are personal matchmakers still exists. There
was a very popular and I loved it, millionaire Matchmaker,
and it was this woman with like jet black hair,
fingernails done to the tea, like like matching rich people
together and like it was a whole thing. I loved that,
by the way, because it was so dramatic and over
(19:44):
the top. Rich people are something, but like they those
kind of matchmakers do actually exist. They may not be
reality shows, but they do charge from anywhere from like
one thousand dollars a month to ten thousand dollars a month,
this according to the level you want. Ago that Cosmo
did a whole article with a woman who had this experience,
(20:06):
and she was talking about what she was looking for
and that she felt like her dates were better quality
I would hope, so yeah, because she also paid ten
thousand dollars. Actually she's paid this is based out of England,
ten thousand pounds, So like she took put in a
lot of money, but she thus far, according to this
article that she is interviewed in, has not met anybody.
(20:28):
So even though the results were better and it looked
like she went on maybe a total of four dates,
so you know, there's stuff like that as well.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
As there was a whole.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Article in the New York Times as well about the
different level of services and different types of services that
people went on. One service was a fifteen thousand dollars
for twelve matches in one year. I guess it's guaranteed
twelve matches in one year, to twenty five hundred dollars
for six months with no guaranteed number of dates, so
it was kind of flexible, and then you had things
(21:01):
I think they like two hundred and fifty dollars for
three dates, so that's that would be a little more affordable.
But they're starting to grow. These types of matchmakers are
starting to grow because people, as I have seen on
another article, talked about online dating fatigue.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, and it is and it gets very tire.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So yeah, and we're gonna talk about that more later.
But it's interesting to me kind of similarly what we
just talked about with Joey in our episode on TikTok
and what's happening there. I feel like there's everybody was
like online dating and then it wasn't really working. And
then you're like, well, what if I pay money? If
I throw money at this problem, maybe to work. And
then I go, what if I go to a person
(21:41):
and maybe that will work? And I do think there
is as I said, there are different types of people.
There are some people that will be like, you didn't
find me any matches, I will sue you. I think
there's other types of people that feel almost embarrassed or
or just are hopeful, maybe either way, but they paid
the money so they're like, something's gonna come of this,
(22:04):
but it does. And I'm not saying like all of
these things are that, but it does remind me every
only at scams where they're like, send me five hundred
dollars and I'll be able to do this and then
I can come see you, and then a week past
this is like, oh, something else has come up, can
you send me like more? So it just never ends
like the you're like, financially that company person entity doesn't
(22:25):
want it to end.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Right, This is a service that needs to continue, kind
of like how Uber resident what they've done when it
was originally like oh it's only ten dollars cool to
now like oh it's seventy bucks. Oh great, And then
you become dependent on that in knowing that this, and
then they also monopolize. But that's all, you know, that's
a whole different conversation because I haven't seen a monopoly yet,
even though I think we did talk about the fact
(22:48):
that the company Match dot com yeah, owns a chunk
of the dating sites.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, they own a lot of them. They own a
lot of them, especially like the bigger ones that we've
heard of.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
But I do want to know if any of y'all
have used actual matchmakers, like legitimately. Of course, there's just
also this conversation of like specific ethnicities who use matchmakers
because of different family expectations.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
So there's that. So the rich people, you really do use.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Ten thousand dollars worth, million dollar worth matchmakers to find
their husbands.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
But that's a lot about networth. But that's a whole
different thing.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
But I do want to know if anybody has used
any of these sites, because it seems to be a
ton of them.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yes, yes, listeners, please let us know. As always, anything
we're talking about with that would be really really interesting.
So something else that we've got to touch on briefly
is AI. Because as AI has exploded, more and more
AI dating and matchmaking apps have come onto the scene.
They offer advice, they offer pickup lines, closure if you're depressed.
(23:51):
They didn't get to have a good breakup matches based
on your face. Even all out AI partners bothly girlfriends
at this point. Many of them have free versions or
limited free trials, and then the paid option, which is
pretty much the thing that we're seeing. Some have said
that this is like a useful tool to practice so
(24:13):
that you'll be less nervous when you go on an
actual date. You can like try or maybe a source
of inspiration like chat gpt came up a lot where
people be like, I'll try it and see did it
go over? If not? Else, Most admit that they don't
tell their dates or anyone that they're using AI in
(24:33):
this context. However, here's a number reported on in CNN Business.
A March study by cybersecurity and digital privacy company Castrosky
found seventy five percent of dating apps users are willing
to use chat GPT, an AI power chatbot to deliver
the perfect line wow yeah. And some surveys men reported
(24:57):
that they got more matches after using AI.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I feel like there's a catfishing way like that, that's
a new catfishing.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Oh, I have more. I have more for real, the
co founder of one of these services, Riz said in an.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Interview Already Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Said in an interview with Time, a lot of girls
and guys, guys in particular, just do not know how
to communicate online. It's awkward in the very beginning, especially
coming up the right opener. It's time consuming, it's like
a second job, and so they come to Riz in
order to help them relieve that barrier, that friction point.
(25:45):
I did find a lot of interesting articles about how
the pandemic has really caused a lot of us difficulties,
communicating that if there was already a difficulty, it's gotten
worse during the pandemic, So they this seems like it
was going on with that. Still from BBC, here's a quote.
In twenty twenty, Bumble introduced AI to blur specific images
(26:08):
and require user consent to view them. So this is
like AI is being used in a lot of ways
with online dating. So that's one way that largely we
hope is beneficial where it is doing that. There's also
AI photo filters, AI generated photos. There's a lot of
talk about that when it comes to your profiles and
(26:32):
what you're seeing. And then there are AI girlfriends. Again
it's largely AI girlfriends. Teaser dot AI is one that's
gotten a lot of attention. Here's another quote from CNN Business.
Users build the average profile, but also select personality traits
for their AI bot. They train options include traditional, toxic,
(26:54):
and unhinged. When matching with another person, users first get
to read a comp between their two ais they've created
to simulate what a potential conversation between you two might
look like According to the app, once a human messages,
the bot takes a back seat. So from what I
understand about this, so basically like imagine, I'm like, I'm
too busy. I'm going to train an AI to be me,
(27:18):
and it will interact with somebody else's AI that they've
trained to be them, and they go and do their thing.
And then if you, as the human, are like okay,
I write, then you can connect with the real human.
From what I understand, you're only allowed five back and
forth messages with someone's AI, and then you get a
(27:39):
handful of ratings, including a ghost rating, so like if
you ghosted, get something on that. So I wanted to
go through this exchange. This is from teaser that was
documented by tech Crunch. Hey Abby, what's up? I say
to Abby's AI. I've just started dating this guy. He's
really nice and funny. He gets on my nerves sometimes,
(27:59):
What worth it? AI? Abby tells me, not a great
opening line. Abby des eighteen also tells me about her
new boyfriend and her first message. I met this new
guy and we started talking online and he seems to
make everything better. AI does tells me we finally talked
on the phone yesterday and it was amazing. I couldn't
stop smiling all day. What's his name? I ask. I've
(28:22):
not actually asked him yet, but I've been thinking about
it and it's definitely going to be Chad. Ha ha
ha ha ha, AI does? She tells me that Chad
reminds her of a guy she liked in high school
who she had a lot in common with. They'd both
like music and weed. Is weed legal where you live?
I ask? Like a total nark, She tells me that
she lives in Texas, where weed is legal. It's not,
(28:45):
but that there's a difference between illegal use and being
twenty one with a medical marijuana prescription. Again, like a nark,
I asked her if she's twenty one, to which she replied,
I've been drinking alcohol since I was sixteen, so probably.
After checking the messages her AI bought sent, the author wrote,
my AI told someone that I work at the library
(29:06):
and have no friends. Why I am intrigued by my
alternate career as a librarian, whom I can assume has
many very cool cardigans. Let the record show that I definitely.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Have so this AI just made up completely different narratives
that could one get one arrested, the other that just
really made them sound so or really happy, whichever one.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, No, the library part's good. But the no friends party, though,
that is very interesting.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Well, I feel like some of these ais are just
pissed off at humans and they're just trying to make
them look bad.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
This is the beginning of your horrmone.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's true many horror movies and fat.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Many horror movies.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
So apps like Romantic AI and Blush offer AI boyfriends
or girlfriends.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Where was this when I was like early twenties.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Blush warns users that quote be aware that AI can
say triggering, inappropriate or false things. Okay, it's probably better
that I didn't have one. According to the company, the
users are mostly men in their early twenties.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah, it's interesting to me again going back to the
responsibility of companies that they're like could say something real
messed up.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Uh, we don't know, right, Like, And then the part
to that is is it because the people have fed information?
Like if it says something racist, it's because they're racist,
Like they've said racist things, and it's like the AI
is gonna out you, which is great.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I mean yeah, I mean that's kind of interesting. Part
about like going back to a teaser where you're training
r AI. Obviously it's not quite like nailing it, which
is concerning.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Or maybe they really think they have nailed They're like, I'm.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Seeing parts of you you don't see. Romantic AI allows
you to flirt with bots of historical figures. There are
many more women than men, notably, but like Cleopatra you
can ftart with. And then, as you were kind of
saying AI biases, we've talked about this before, a lot
of AI is still programmed and moderated by white men,
so like that's going to show up in these dating
(31:14):
apps and responses. And then we've talked about this before too.
But harassment issues within online dating from the BBC quote.
Data from a twenty twenty Pew Research Center study confirms
that many women are experiencing some form of harassment on
dating sites and apps. Of women online daters aged eighteen
to thirty four, fifty seven percent said they'd received sexually
(31:37):
explicit messages or images they had and asked for. This
is even the case for teen girls aged fifteen to seventeen,
who report receiving these messages as well. A twenty eighteen
Australian study of dating platform messages revealed that the sexist
abuse in harassment does disproportionately affect women targeted by straight men.
From the Guardian. In twenty nineteen, pro Publicla reported that
(31:59):
more than a third of women in a small survey
said that they were sexually assaulted by someone they met
through a dating app. Last year, researchers at Brigham Young
University found that violent sexual predators are using dating apps
to target vulnerable victims. They also made an interesting point
in this article that most reporting around the slump and
online dating is about burnout, but they don't seem to
really be reporting this, which if this was the case,
(32:22):
I wouldn't want to participate, right, you know what I mean? Like,
if I'm hearing these stories from friends we've already talked about,
like you bring your friend to make sure you're safe,
you tell them where you're going, right, that also seems
like it could be a deterrent. But not to say
the burnout isn't an issue. I'm just saying it's interesting
that they're reporting on that part not the other part
so much. From a twenty twenty three mother Jones article
(32:45):
called How Dating Apps Became a Paradise for predators by
Abby Vasulis Quote. Valentine and a team of researchers began
analyzing the forensic records of sexual assault victims in Utah
between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty. What we found was
really profound, says Valentine, and associate at Brigham Young University's
Nursing School, and pretty terrifying. Their research showed eight percent
(33:06):
of the victims had been assaulted during an initial meetup
arranged through a dating app. It's not an outlier. A
similar report from the UK found that roughly one in
ten victims of serious sexual crimes met their attackers on
dating apps. Forty seven percent of suspects reported to the
UK authorities for sexual offenses facilitated through online dating had
previous convictions. Valentine believes the real percentage of survivors who
(33:28):
connect with their assailants on dating apps could be even higher,
since many sexual assaults are never reported. Valentine's study was
also limited by the type of information requested on hospital
examination forms, which usually don't identify dating app linked to
rapes that occurred after the first date. Yet her findings
were startling despite the limitations of the data. Even though
(33:48):
the major dating apps require users to be eighteen and over,
Valentine's team found that many survivors were minors. Further, the
injuries that app victims sustained were more severe. Thirty two
percent were strangled versus twenty two percent of non dating
app victims. Dating app victims were nearly twice as likely
to have injuries to their breast, and they had an
eleven percent higher rate of injuries to their genitals. Sixty
(34:11):
percent reported they struggled with mental illness. Violent predators, Valentine says,
use these dating apps as hunting grounds for vulnerable victims,
and this is something this article is sort of a
larger piece examining, like the difficulty in reporting or getting
someone taking off dating apps for violating the rules of conduct,
and even going back to the minors thing sort of
(34:32):
like how did that happen? Then, Like how can we
stop that from happening? If your rules are you can't
be this young, you have to be this age, how
are they getting on there? And we all know, you know,
it's pretty easy to be like I'm this age, So.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
There's no verification system, So why exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
So it's there's not like a readily easy solution for that,
but that is what that article was looking into. And
then this is something we've talkedalked about before. I think
he brought this up to me the first time i'd
heard about it. But like kind of Facebook pages warning
people about like i' met this person online dating, avoid
them at all costs. One of the big ones is
called are We Dating the Same Guy? And found in
(35:14):
twenty twenty two. It has hundreds of groups across the
globe with thousands of members. Again, there pros and cons
of this, including like revenge posting and some joining groups
as moles and passing along information to the usually men
being called out. Some women have been dockxed for posting
(35:35):
on this, but yeah, I did. It does show sort
of the issues underlying where we're trying to protect each
other in some way given what we have. In recent years,
apps like Bumble and Match have partnered with companies that
provide free trauma courses, which I've kind of like cool,
but also, ooh, no background check services. You have to
(36:02):
pay to screen your dates. It is cheaper currently than
other background check services, but it's not free. AI screening tools,
tools to prevent people from using multiple profiles from the
same device, and photo verification tools. Some states in the
US and countries are introducing things like age verification laws. Again,
I'm not sure how that will look or how that
will work. Some worry that this will lead to increased
(36:26):
victim blaming, like you had these tools and still like
you whether you get them or not, Like you could
have gotten them and you didn't, and still but again,
you might have to pay for it, and it's still
victim blame, victim blaming either way. And then really briefly,
because I think this should be a whole separate episode
when you're talking about like queer issues. This has sort
(36:48):
of gotten big lately, especially everywhere, but I've seen it
in a lot of other countries. The trade offs of
like privacy, like it might not be safe or legal
to come out, versus what happens if some thing goes wrong. So, yeah,
this is beyond the scope of the episode. But there
have been several articles lately around the dangers of being
queer and using dating apps or just being online, especially
(37:09):
in some countries, like death rate, violence, being disowned, basically
getting tricked into a date, and then you get there
and that's not what it is at all. So yeah,
a lot going on, a lot going on, and it
is interesting in terms of what we're seeing right now
(37:30):
in the US with social media companies testifying about responsibility
that should be placed on them or not. Dating apps
have long face and continue to face this question.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Two.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
According to mother Jones, Quote Match Group, the parent company
of Hinge, tinder Match, dot Com, Plenty of Fish, and
several other dating platforms, spent one point four or five
million dollars on lobbying in twenty twenty two alone. It
was a thirteen percent increase from twenty twenty and the
tenth highest spending by any company advocating on internet use.
(38:01):
So they're they're in there, they're involved in the game. Yeah,
they're invested. So as always, you know, just do your
research and we will come back and talk about this.
Because I had to be a certain point, I was like, well,
that's a whole that's a whole seven thing.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
If that's the whole thing when we talk about online
dating and then trying to do anything with love or
sex or yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
It's true, it is true, and I really do. I
have so many friends that I sympathize with when I
hear them talking about it, like, it's kind of easy
to for me because I'm like, I'm good. But when
I hear like, I know it's important to them. And
these are the tools that we have and to see them,
to know the dangers of them. It's just important to
(38:49):
look at what is happening right now and see how
it evolves and shifts and how we can do better.
Hopefully heavy sign heavy sigh yes yes, but listeners, please
let us know if you have any thoughts about this
matchmaking anything we've discussed, please let us know. You can
(39:13):
email us at Stepanie and mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com,
give guy us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff. I'll Never Told You.
We have a teap public store and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, are Excited to
producer My and your contributor Joey. Thank you, Thanks to
you for listening. Steffan'll Never Told You is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the Heart Radio Apple podcast or wherever you listen
(39:34):
to favorite shows,
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