SMNTY Classics: Women Candidates, Misinformation and Disinformation

In this classic, Bridget Todd joins us once again to discuss disinformation this election cycle, how it specifically impacts women and especially Black women and women of color and ways we can combat it.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
I'll Never Told You production of Iheartradium, And today we
are bringing back a classic that we did with Bridget
around politics and misinformation and disinformation. Because we are in

(00:30):
perpetual election season, it seems there's been a lot of
headlines recently about some AI generated photos that are misleading,
outright lies in some cases. And then I got this today.
I got a message about this, and I think we
should come back into a whole episode about it. But

(00:51):
it was from an article called women are Getting Off
birth Control a mid misinformation explosion. It's from the Washington
Post and I read it and I was very concerned
about it. It was all about like these lies that
women are being told about birth control that they're getting
from social media, largely things that are like it'll change

(01:13):
you're attracted to. It'll be somebody who's less traditionally masculine. Yeah, no, yep,
horror of horrors. I don't even know what you I
know what you mean, but I'm like, really, I.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Mean, I feel like they're saying like the stereotype of masculine.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
But yeah, it'd be that what we see is like
them calling themselves alphas or just dicks exactly, and therefore
how I feel, and that has nothing to do with
birth well, it was kind of a birth control. I
don't want to have a baby with you.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Right right, That's that's about how I feel. But also
like honestly threatening women that they'll gain weight, which I
think is very toxic, that you should just be cycling,
like timing yourmnstruation cycle for your brick control, which yea
science is that's not there. And surprise, surprise, there is

(02:07):
a very conservative push behind this, which is terrifying because
everything that's going on with abortion, a lot of people
have been coming in saying like I've been doing this
that I've read on that I saw on social media.
Now I'm pregnant and I can't get an abortion, and
the doctor's sort of like I also read this quote
from the article. To be anti fertility is to be

(02:27):
anti woman. So what when we like talking about our
Comstock episode we recently did. They're putting the roots down
even harder now with this. They are really like trying
to set the stage for what they're going to do
into further making it difficult to get access to reproductive rights,

(02:50):
to healthcare it is a bigger issue than I can
talk about. Obviously, I hope in a classic intro because
there's other pieces at play here for why it's exploding
right now. But all that being said, we are seeing
a huge wave of misinformation, so please keep that in mind.

(03:12):
I believe our listeners are very savvy. But it's just
worth saying because I've had two friends of mine tell
me a piece of news lately and I was like,
that doesn't seem right, and then when we got.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
To the bottom of it, it was not. It was
not right, So can.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Happen to anybody? Please be aware, yes, But in the meantime,
please enjoy this classic episode.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Welcome to Steffan Never Told your protection of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Today listeners.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
We are so excited we have such such a et
episode for you, and we have such a wonderful guest,
Bridget Todd, past host and host of There Are No
Girls on the Internet, the podcast, which you should absolutely
check out, is here joining us today.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Hello, I'm so excited to be here hang out with
you guys during the quarantine.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah. Oh, we're so excited to have you. And we're
also excited because this is the first of a regularly
occurring segment about women about the Internet. Would you like
to describe kind of what you're envisioning for this segment.

Speaker 4 (04:33):
Yeah, what I'm envisioning is, you know, I'm the kind
of person who is online all day, every day on Twitter,
looking at memes and all of that, and from all
of that time, useless time spent online stories about women,
about marginalized voices about you know, how we are showing
up online always occur, and so I thought the smintee

(04:54):
listenership might appreciate going into those rabbit holes with me
and talking about some of the ways that a our
stories show up or don't show up.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
On the Internet.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yes, yes, the listeners know. I'm a big fan of
a good Internet rabbit hole. I like to spotlight a
rabbit hole today because you never know what you'll find.
And I've been like racking my brains trying to think
of a clever name for this segment. So if you
have any ideas on that, Bridget or any listeners have

(05:25):
any ideas, just just I'm all ears. I love a
good title for things. Yeah, I want to I want
to throw much to the listeners.

Speaker 4 (05:33):
I bet listeners probably have some good some good ideas.

Speaker 5 (05:37):
I hadn't thought about that though.

Speaker 6 (05:39):
Oh yeah, we love good title alliteration is even better, So.

Speaker 5 (05:42):
Alliteration can't be that yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
And I keep saying segment, which isn't totally accurate. This
is like a series, and for today, as we are
in the United States, we're in this. It feels like
more season is not accurate to say, but that's what
most people call it. We're talking about disinformation and misinformation

(06:15):
and election season and women and how all of that
interacts correct exactly.

Speaker 4 (06:22):
Yeah, and I was partly inspired by the episode that
y'all did on q Andon and women.

Speaker 5 (06:27):
I think that we often assume.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
That when things happen online, you know, the deep ball
assumption is that the person online is a white male,
and so as we know that is not true, we
often kind of leave out this very critical and growing
section of people who are having these important experiences online.
And so I was really happy to see that y'all
spotlighted women and QAnon and that very strange intersection there.

Speaker 5 (06:55):
And yeah, it was just really inspired.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
By the work that y'all have been doing.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, that's another interesting aspect too, because, as you say,
a lot of the default assumptions are this internet user
is white male, and even when you think of QAnon,
you think white male.

Speaker 5 (07:12):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
It is a.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Growing phenomenon that more and more women are becoming involved
in QAnon and being involved online in QAnon, which is, yeah,
you're not hearing too much about that, but we really
should be looking into why that's going on exactly.

Speaker 6 (07:30):
That's what we were talking about with the major candidate
that's running for the US House of Representative here in Georgia,
Marjorie Green, who is a QAnon advocate and has used
that as part of our platform and is winning and
is winning and is most likely going to be elected
because she's not being contested. The one man who was
contesting her in the Democratic Party dropped out because of

(07:53):
unknown threats. So that says a lot in itself. And
that's kind of one of the things that I love
that we're talking about this because not only are they
playing and I say they as a broader day of
QAnon and people of conspiracy theory, which originated as possibly
a joke to see what they can fish fish out
into this fear of motherhood and children and It's kind

(08:17):
of just opened up this huge world of oh my god,
what is happening and why are we being so misled
and why does it seem to be specifically targeting women
in this misinformation?

Speaker 5 (08:31):
Yeah, it's it's These are all great points.

Speaker 4 (08:32):
I think that you know, you brought up this connection
between like QAnon and like fear of motherhood. I think
that it really goes down to the fact that women
often are marginalized or not supported, They're not heard, and
so we have to take these issues that are very
real issues in our life to the Internet, and I
think that that can make us vulnerable in these like,

(08:53):
very specific ways. Combine that with the fact that people
assume that Internet users are all men.

Speaker 5 (09:00):
The way the very specific.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
Ways that women are being targeted and are vulnerable for
this kind of exploitation just go unexamined, untalked about. And
I think there's also an assumption that quote unquote women's
spaces online, you know, uh, places like Pinterest or places
like Facebook groups for moms or like anti vacs Facebook groups,
things like that, there's this assumption that there's nothing worth

(09:23):
investigating going on in these groups. But we know that
this allows them to be hotbeds for disinformation and misinformation,
which is actually really harmful.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yes, And actually, before we get too deep into this conversation,
would you mind explaining the difference between disinformation and misinformation.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Absolutely, it's a question I get a lot. So misinformation
is misleading or incorrect information that leads to somebody being misled.
They might not actually have, you know, bad intent, or
they're not there may not they may not necessarily be
like spreading bad or inaccurate information on purpose, but they
are leading somebody to be misled. Disinformation, on the other hand,

(10:02):
is nefarious intentional spread of inaccurate information. And so a
good way that you can think about it is misinformation
is misleading. Disinformation is a damn lie. Right, This is
like someone is lying to you on purpose to cause
some kind of problem.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, And we've seen a lot of that unfortunately during
this election cycle. And also it's been interesting seeing kind
of social media companies struggling to deal with this and
hearing a lot about that in the news of you know,
flagging this tweet is false or whatever. What in your

(10:44):
experience as someone who is on the internet a lot,
what kind of disinformation strategies are you seeing?

Speaker 5 (10:49):
So many.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
Right, So a big one that people are probably kind
of familiar with is people will impersonate, marginalize people, oftentimes
black women, to just honestly so discord and confusion. Right,
So that's one when it comes to women candidates really
playing into biases, so you know, spreading falsehoods about women

(11:14):
candidates being you know, shrill or unstrustworthy or incompetent. We
know these things are not grounded in fact, but these
are messages that really take off on social media and
I can really have a lot of a lot of
a big impact. Things like cheap fakes. You know, we
people are pretty familiar with deep fakes, these videos that
are you know, not real or manipulated in some way,

(11:35):
but we also have cheap fakes where a video is
taken out of context and spread on social media, you know,
saying as if like, oh so and so has said
this thing, but actually it's a it's an out of
context snippets that's a cheap fake.

Speaker 5 (11:49):
But all of these different ways that are.

Speaker 4 (11:51):
Really meant to create confusion in voters and really meant
to have people, particularly women and people of color, just think, well,
the system is rigged, The system is so confusing.

Speaker 5 (12:06):
It's so chaotic.

Speaker 4 (12:09):
That I'm just going to check out of the democratic
process altogether. It's not worth it, right, Yeah, And you know.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
We've talked a lot about on this show those words
that you kind of use that we see leveled at
female politicians, and how ambition is like my favorite one,
where like a man being ambitious is great, but a
woman being ambitious Wait a minute now, And then I

(12:42):
remember the episode you and I did bridget where about
reporters in India getting slutshamed and just like waking up
to an inbox full of these very disturbing images of
your face on some other woman's body and some like
horrific act like violence being perpetrated against you, and sharing

(13:04):
those images with your family, with the world, with everybody,
And just how like even me thinking about that that
makes my just tense up, Like that's it's so awful.
And I was just wondering if you could speak to
sort of this gendered attack and gendered disinformation.

Speaker 5 (13:25):
Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
There was actually a recent study by Lucina di Meco,
who is a senior expert and advocate and a writer
on women's leadership in gender equality. The study is called
She Persisted and it really shows the ways that disinformation
is so gendered, and so that's one of the reasons
why it's so important to.

Speaker 5 (13:40):
Talk about it through this lens.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
You know, social media can really be a double edged
sword for women in politics. On the one hand, it
really allows women to have this platform to cut through
chatter and have direct communication with the public, but also
that is where we get these incredibly biased, gendered, sexist attacks.
So the thing that you talked about with the journalist
in India, sensitive images, whether they're like sometimes doctored, sometimes

(14:05):
not real, that is a common occurrence for women running
for office or women in politics in general. And I
would even take it a step further and say women
in public, women who speak their mind or have an
opinion in public, right, Like, there is nothing people love
to pile on more than a woman who has an
opinion in public. And oftentimes the way that these attacks

(14:25):
are framed are very gendered. You know, research actually shows
that men, even men of color, when compared to their
female colleagues of color, don't get the same kind of attacks, right,
And so they're highly racialized and highly gendered.

Speaker 6 (14:50):
And I think it's really interesting when we talk about
women of color being really ridiculed when we look at
Kamala Harris and her even debate style, the fact that
the matter was that she was holding back, but even
with our holding back and making a few faces still
made her a target as being overly disingenuous, untrustworthy, and
according to Trump, a monster. Like with that, how do

(15:12):
we actually talk about this kind of level of misogyny
slash racism, especially when we're in this type of debate,
especially in this type of election, Well, how do we
address it? How do we make sure we call it
out as we see it?

Speaker 5 (15:25):
Well, that's a great question.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
One of the organizations I work with, Ultraviolet, actually created
a media guide.

Speaker 5 (15:31):
You can find it if you.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
Just google Ultraviolet Media Guide. I'm sure you can find
it to help us spot and talk about these incredibly racialized,
gendered attacks on not just Kamala Harris, all women of color. Right,
they could often be very subtle, things like calling Kamala
Harris quote aggressive.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
We know that's a dog whistle for.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
Black women who speak their mind are very assertive in
their speech style. So sometimes they can be really subtle.
Sometimes they can be really obvious, right, like Trump calling
Kamala Harris a monster, you know, after her debate style,
we know that these are just you know, especially when
you think about Trump, he has a pattern of lashing

(16:12):
out at black women when he feels attacked, and so
this is nothing new from him. But I also think
the media really plays a role in shaping how we
talk about and think about these kinds of sexist, gendered attacks.
And so one of the things that we've really been
working on with Ultra Violet is trying to have a
little bit of a media accountability and say, you know,
if Trump says something that is a racist, sexist attack

(16:35):
on a black woman in politics, don't put don't repeat
that in the headline so that it goes all over
social Because evidence shows that the more people see something,
even if it's not true, they believe it. And so
if Trump perpetuates a racist, sexist attack on a black woman,
if a news article puts that attack in the headline
and it just goes all over social media, people will

(16:57):
start to believe that, right, even if we all know
it's to be as And so really making sure that
we understand and know how to spot these attacks and
that we're able to hold the media accountable when they
you know, unwittingly perhaps, you know, perpetuate it.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, yeah, And I know last time you were here,
you spoke about how in twenty sixteen there were these
Russian actors. There was a Senate inquiry that found that
these Russian actors were behind a lot of disinformation attacks
that were specifically targeting black people to keep them from

(17:35):
voting in twenty sixteen. And is that our foreign countries
normally behind disinformation.

Speaker 5 (17:42):
That's a great question.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
So in that case in twenty sixteen, you know, the
Senate inquiry did ton affirm that these were likely Russian assets.
But I almost find that focusing on foreign entities and
foreign and bad actors makes us let our guard down
for the reality, which is that a lot of these
tax and campaigns are actually domestic. They're you know, homegrown

(18:05):
attacks on women and people of color. And so I
think it's really important that we say, like, yes, we
have documented evidence that these things happen in twenty sixteen,
but also in twenty twenty. It's not just foreign actors,
it's people right here in the United States who are
trying to sow chaos and distrust, right.

Speaker 6 (18:25):
And I noticed the surge of accounts coming up with
stock photos of black men or black people who are
saying and it's all the same tweet essentially saying that
they were no longer going to be voting for Democrats
because they no a long with trust the system and
now are going to be Republicans and have for the
first time, you know, voted as a Republican.

Speaker 5 (18:44):
What is this surge?

Speaker 6 (18:45):
And is this kind of like the lazier form of
the buye because it's obvious stock photos when you start
like looking at it, but then it's kind of like, wait,
why even put that effort?

Speaker 4 (18:55):
Yeah, I mean, it's almost kind of funny when you
look at it. I actually did an episode with this woman,
Shapeka Hudson, who you know, she started the hashtag your
slip is showing to call out some of these fake
accounts posing as black people. And what's funny is that
when you actually at first glance, you're like, oh, this
is a suspiciously good looking black person who is leaving
the Democratic Party after years, okay, But then when you

(19:18):
actually keep looking, you think like, oh, well, this the
way that he's phrased this sounds like this other tweet
I saw, or oh the way that he's using you know,
he's he the way that he's using like African American
vernacular English just seems a little bit off. Honestly, if
you dig into them and like look at them enough,

(19:39):
I think that they have these little tells.

Speaker 5 (19:41):
But yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (19:43):
Think, you know, creating this impression that there is a
mass exodus of black people from the Democratic Party by
using these fake accounts. I could see how it would,
you know, just be so confusing and like, I mean,
he's like, you see these tweets and you're like, what's

(20:04):
going on?

Speaker 5 (20:04):
I could like the ultimate goal.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
Was to get people to just be like, the political
process doesn't make sense to me. It's so confusing. I'm
not even going to be involved. And I can see
how that would actually, you know, lead to that. What's
funny is that in twenty sixteen, somebody sent me a
link to a Twitter account that used my picture from LinkedIn,
like an old headshot, and this person was saying all

(20:27):
of these very strange things about Hillary Clinton, and you know,
I flagged the account and it was taken down, But
I never quite figured.

Speaker 5 (20:35):
Out what was going on. It just was a very
weird situation.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
And this was way before we knew or I knew
any of this, and you know, I never.

Speaker 5 (20:43):
I was just like, what is this?

Speaker 4 (20:44):
Who would who would take my LinkedIn picture, make go
through the trouble of making a Twitter account and then
have these like incredibly like I don't know how to
put it, but incredibly fake bad like obviously not.

Speaker 5 (20:59):
A non black person trying to pretend to.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
Be a black woman kind of tweets like who would
do this?

Speaker 5 (21:04):
Now? I know?

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Right?

Speaker 5 (21:06):
Well?

Speaker 6 (21:07):
And on top of that, as we were reading, we
know Canice Owens, who has been a big proponent for
Trump talking about black people for Trump, she actually created
a blexit event Like that feels like a whole new
level of trolling. And on top of that, admitting like
allegedly paying a few of the attendees to even.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Come to this event.

Speaker 5 (21:31):
Oh my god, what kind of level is this? And
I have to say, you know, I live in Washington,
d C.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
This happened, and this event happened at the White House.
I was so sam I like all the things you
just said, yes, yes, yes, But also I was so
curious when that event was happening because I'm thinking, you know,
there's still a pandemic. You have a group of black
people who are you know disproportionately impacted by COVID you

(21:56):
group'im on the White House lawn?

Speaker 5 (21:57):
Who knows? Max? Who knows? Right?

Speaker 4 (21:59):
Like?

Speaker 5 (22:00):
Who knows?

Speaker 4 (22:00):
I was furious to see that, literally imber thinking from
what I understand, people got there lodging and.

Speaker 5 (22:07):
Meals paid for by attending the event.

Speaker 4 (22:10):
The idea of these people being like unleashed on my
city and going into restaurants.

Speaker 5 (22:13):
I was furious, furious.

Speaker 6 (22:17):
As you should be because that's irritating as well. But
speaking of canus Owens, I didn't want to kind of
talk about her whole play because it again coming back
to Kamala Harris and just anyone in person of color
in general coming out attacking Kamala for not being black enough,
not being Indian enough, not being able to qualify as
this type of person and able to speak and say yes,

(22:41):
I am a person who is making kind of headway
and trying to be in leadership. Why do you think
that this type of rhetoric is not only harmful but
can work in some cases in deterring people to vote
for her.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
Well, I think that we just really don't understand how
to talk about race and ethnicity and our heritages. I
really don't like Candice Owen, but you know, she tweeted,
I am so excited that they get to watch Kamala Harris,
who swore into Congress as a quote Indian American, now
plays a black woman card all the way to November, right,
Like I have to say, if you were someone who

(23:18):
was hell bent on misrepresenting people's identity to weaponize it
against them, that's effective, right, And so.

Speaker 5 (23:26):
I think that she really I think that people.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
Like Owen really play into the fact that people don't understand,
you know, people's identities in this country. The idea that
Kamala Harris, you know, her identity can contain multiple things.
That's how identities work. We don't have a lot of
I think that people don't really necessarily understand how to
talk about that, and so it leaves the issue very

(23:51):
vulnerable to be exploited by people who you know, want
to weaponize someone's actually like someone's identity, like who they are.

Speaker 5 (23:59):
You know.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
Kamala Harris has been even before she was in the
national spotlight, has been so clear about the ways her
Indian American heritage and her you know, African American heritage
have really made her the person that she is, you know,
grounded her in her identity, and that's so beautiful and
so rich, and honestly, it's such an expression of I

(24:20):
would say, the platonic ideal of America, that someone could
have different identities and those identities could enrich them and
become part of who they are and their legacy. To
tear that down and then try to reframe that to
weaponize it against somebody I think is so like vile,
but unfortunately it's effective.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, And speaking of Kamala Harris, I know that when
twenty sixteen, forever ago, we saw these attacks on Hillary Clinton.
I remember being, oh my gosh, back.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
When you could go out and do things.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
I was at a rally and somebody had a sign
for Hillary Clinton and this was a college in Atlanta.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
That said like go back to the kitchen.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
So how would you say, like the difference, what differences
do you see in these attacks on Hillary Clinton and
the attacks on Kamala Harris.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah, I would say, you know, I remember those attacks
on Senator Clinton.

Speaker 5 (25:21):
You know, oh gosh, I mean it seems like forever.

Speaker 4 (25:24):
Ago now, but you know, so many gendered attacks, like
do you remember when she had pneumonia and people acted
like she was, you know, one foot in the grade
that store.

Speaker 6 (25:35):
Yeah, she needed to quit, immediately, quit campaigning, quit everything
because she was about.

Speaker 5 (25:39):
To die exactly. I mean, yeah, people, it's just so simple.

Speaker 4 (25:43):
People just don't like women, right, And so definitely she
we all saw it. She had these incredibly gendered attacks
on her character. But I think when it comes to
you know, Kamala Harris, I think whenever you occupy intersecting identity,
So if you're a woman and you're also black or
you know, whatever intersection intersecting identities you have, that always

(26:06):
makes attacks more salient, right, because people are exploiting your
identity to create this sort of layered attack. And so
she's not just being attacked because she's a person of color.
She's not just being attacked because she's a woman. She's
being attacked because she's a woman of color. And it
has the added problem of the fact that if we
don't really know how to talk about race, and so

(26:28):
these attacks often go overlooked. It's almost kind of like
a gas lighting, right that she could be the recipient
of these gendered, racist attacks. But that because we don't
know how to talk about race, we would pretend that
they're not happening right when we're not talking about them.
And so I think that that it's always going to
be you know, it's hard for women, but I think

(26:49):
that for women of color it will always be disproportionately
more difficult.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, And I it's strange because twenty sixteen does feel
so long ago, but it also feels like the specter
that's just like hanging over and it's I've seen arguments
still to this day of people being so hurt and
understandably so from that election. And that was, at least

(27:20):
in my case, one of the first instances I got.
I was familiar with disinformation, and especially on online social media.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
As we are.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Entering twenty twenty, the people are voting now I voted,
what strategies?

Speaker 2 (27:40):
How do you think it will be different?

Speaker 1 (27:41):
How do you think disinformation will be different in twenty
twenty or what what do you think what do you
expect is going to happen in the realm of disinformation
and this twenty twenty election?

Speaker 6 (27:51):
And can I add to this too, because now we're
also seeing not only disinformation from outside people, we're seeing
it directly from the source of our president at this
point in time, that he's retweeting things in disinformation, real
disinformation that are harmful to many people out there, and
we see that as contant. He's getting on the damn

(28:12):
phone with people and going off rants with disinformation that
is being heard by instead of social media just being
by the forties fifty year old boomers, like the senior citizens,
who may truly believe what he is saying and ranting about.
Can you talk about that as well, and how that
is affecting this year's election as opposed to what it
was before.

Speaker 4 (28:31):
Yeah, I mean, Sam, your point is so accurate. With
Trump in the White House, it is like a disinformation
super spreader of like event every day. You know, there
was just a study I can't remember the exact study,
but I can find it that said that Trump is
the number one spreader of COVID disinformation and misinformation, right,

(28:55):
And so think about that something that could impact someone's health,
something that in like physically harm communities. He is the
number one person who is spreading it, right, things about
false cures, things about you know, like when he when
he talked about how like like just in like completely incorrect,

(29:17):
harmful information. And so I think what's different this year
is that we do have someone who is has proven
time and time and time again that he is not
above spreading disinformation and misinformation, no matter how harmful it is.

Speaker 5 (29:30):
And so I think that is a real difference.

Speaker 4 (29:33):
You know, one of the things I've seen in my
research on disinformation is the way that when Trump tweets something,
it can get picked up on so quickly and spread
so fast, right, And so I think that's a real
difference that we are going to have to contend with
in twenty twenty, that we have someone who is so
powerful and has such a huge megaphone and has so

(29:54):
many people's ears, like you said, you know, spreading this
information that could really get somebody hurt and really impacts
our democracy. I think I would say another thing that
we are seeing a lot of in twenty twenty that
I think has gotten worse is bad actors' willingness to
exploit existing fractures in our communities. And so, you know,

(30:17):
I did an episode of my show There Are No
Girls on the Internet about Vanessa Yinn, the soldier who
was killed, and you know that was during that happened
during earlier in the summer, when we had all of
these uprisings for you know, black lives, folks like Breonna
Taylor and George Floyd. And we saw bad actors online
putting these messages on huge Facebook pages with lots and

(30:40):
lots and lots of reach, saying things like why should
the LATINX community support the Black community when quote they
killed one of.

Speaker 5 (30:48):
Our own, right, And so everybody knows that.

Speaker 4 (30:51):
Marginalized communities are stronger when we work together, but it's
very savvy how they exploit these existing fractures in communities
to continue to cause chaos and spread confusion, right. And
so I think that in twenty twenty, we've seen a
lot more willingness.

Speaker 5 (31:09):
Of bad actors to exploit really.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Sensitive topics, topics that take nuance or thoughtfulness to discuss publicly,
and just collapsing them into you know, us against.

Speaker 5 (31:20):
Them, or this is why we shouldn't vote.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
Democrat, or these things that divide us instead of unite
us because we're so much stronger when we're united.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
We have some more for you listeners, but first we
have a quick break for word from our sponsor, and
we're back.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Thank you sponsored.

Speaker 6 (31:47):
As you're talking about the issue with the one marginalized
group up pitted against another in order to break down
and divide of I've just recently read an article talking
about how men in the Latino community are there's a
big chunk of them that are voting for Trump because
the appeal of his matismo, as they say, is like
that the manliness of his appeal has actually spoken to

(32:11):
this group of people. And I find that very interesting
because we see that played time and time again as
where he's exploited that I'm a man's man in order
to get these votes and get this louder vote, and
even to the point that we have groups that are
talking about make women great again.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
Have you seen this?

Speaker 6 (32:28):
No, So it's this whole campaign where they are there's
a group of men, right wing men who are going
around trying to take money for women to come to
conventions to be taught to be womanly, feminine and back
into the original role of what women should be.

Speaker 5 (32:46):
But it's kind of they've taken.

Speaker 6 (32:47):
This huge art on being who they are and playing
on it because of this new found need to have
this conversation about we need to be more manly but
community and Trump is getting us to be mainly again.
Have you seen this as a part of like a
push in this disinformation. Is this manly machismo kind of rhetoric.

Speaker 4 (33:07):
Oh, first of all, I just have to I have
to ask, like, what the hell kind of things do
you think they're teaching women in these trainings?

Speaker 6 (33:15):
Like I oh, oh my gosh, I think it's like
how much money was like ten thousand dollars. It was
at their Florida convention, ten thousand dollars, and then they
gave this march huge marked down price and it's just
like ten men talking to women about being feminine.

Speaker 5 (33:31):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
If I if I could like wear like dress up
in some sort of disguise.

Speaker 5 (33:36):
And go to one of these with like a camera,
Oh my god, look out.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
It's such a good question, though, I think that, you know,
you make such a good point. I think that it
really comes down to Trump's willingness and effectiveness at exploiting
these biases that exist in our society, so biases around women,
misconceptions of like what it is to be like.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
A manly man or a womanly woman. You know.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
I think that Trump is very effective at exploiting these things.
And the reason why they work is because these old
these old school stereotypical notions of what it means to
be a woman, what it means to be a man,
all of these sort of traditional ideas.

Speaker 5 (34:14):
They have been baked into our society for so long.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
I mean you you all do such a good job
of breaking them down every week.

Speaker 5 (34:21):
Right.

Speaker 4 (34:21):
We know that these things have staying power, and that's
why they're so effective for people at Trump and these
this group of whoever who is who was like charging
ten thousand dollars also talk about that price point that
is a lot of money.

Speaker 6 (34:36):
That might be over exaggerating, but it was a lot
of money, and I was like, who the hell is
going to pay this?

Speaker 5 (34:43):
What? I know?

Speaker 4 (34:44):
I'm so curious. I would love to get a syllabus
for this.

Speaker 6 (34:48):
Court web page and it's yeah, it's incredible. But yeah,
there's also this whole level of him coming after suburban wives.
Literally at the recent rally, he is begging suburban women,
please vote for me, please like me. I'm trying to
make your community safe again.

Speaker 5 (35:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:10):
I think it really just goes back to his willingness
to try to exploit these very traditional ideas of.

Speaker 5 (35:17):
What women want.

Speaker 4 (35:19):
I'm not going to sit here and say that I
think that Trump has any kind of a good read
on what women want. But I think it's like his
him trying to him, assuming that he does, and trying
to trying to exploit that.

Speaker 5 (35:30):
You know.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
It really makes me think about how in earlier waves
of the alt right and things like that, organizing online,
all the ways that they were kind of appealing to
manly men who were sick of these like soy boy,
betas right it really it really, I mean gender the
jet like gender norms are our mother fer That's all

(35:53):
I can say, right, it really, really we are so
our society is it's so bake into our society in
these toxic, harmful ways that watching them play out on
you know, the election stage or in politics or online
in these ways, it's just so it's just truly so bizarre.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
You know.

Speaker 6 (36:11):
On top of that, as we're sitting here talking about it,
I have kind of named off every person that he's
been begging to notice him, whether it's using token black
people in order to get them into line and not
doing the blexit, or appealing to suburban women. But the
one group of people that he's really not talked to
or actually even notice are typically marginalized women women of color,

(36:35):
specifically black women.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
Oh of course, right, if you look at the numbers
of black women who voted for Trump, we knew better.
Like black women were not falling for it, you know,
and I mean they always It's almost like a cliche
at this point when we talk about politics, like listen
to black women, black women do we do know what's up?

Speaker 5 (36:51):
Right?

Speaker 4 (36:52):
But like whatever he was selling, we were not buying.
We see him attack black women, our sisters, like Kamala Harris,
like White House correspondent, you, michelsondor, you know, like April Ryan.
We see him attack our sisters every day. There's just
we're not We're not We're not going to do it.
Like there's nothing We're not buying what he's selling.

Speaker 5 (37:11):
No.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
It is funny that it's like he's he's he realizes
like I'm not gonna win with them.

Speaker 5 (37:16):
It may I may as well just cut my losses.

Speaker 6 (37:19):
You really, he's like literally just like throws his hands up,
like never mind.

Speaker 5 (37:22):
Next.

Speaker 6 (37:24):
It's really interesting when you really focus on his his
goals and you're.

Speaker 5 (37:28):
Like, oh, we see who you're afraid of exactly.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I do want to add in here too.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
One idea I was reading about this a couple of
years ago.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
And it's just really stuck with me.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Is if you look at the here in the United States,
the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, there's almost been
a masculinization and a feminization of like masculinization of the
Republican Party, feminization of the Democratic Party, and just seeing
that play out, and and the Republican Party really really
leaning into that because in our society, masculine is better, Right,

(38:01):
be aggressive, be rude, tell women that they belong in
the kitchen or whatever whatever, because you're speaking your mind,
and that's okay. But that is something that I've been
thinking about a lot, and I feel like I am witnessing.

Speaker 4 (38:15):
Yeah, I mean, just look at the way that they
talked about masks at the debate between Trump and Biden, Right,
Biden wore a mask his people he was with war masks.
I think it was a Republican commentator Tommy laren or
I don't know if that's her name, however you say it,
who tweeted something around along the lines of nice mask,
Biden may as well carry a purse what?

Speaker 6 (38:39):
And this was after Trump and them tested positive.

Speaker 4 (38:42):
Right, Like, do do some of these Republicans think that
you can be manlier than a virus, like you can
be you can sort of out masculine a contagion. What
do they think this this this equation with people on
the left with like feminization. So if you are wearing

(39:04):
a mask because you want to protect you and your
and your the people around you, that's you know, you
may as well be carrying a purse, right, you know
this idea that being I mean, they've they've even shown
that one of the big problems when it comes to
COVID is that men don't feel manly when they wear
a mask, so they don't And just think about how
how how sick that is, how how toxic that traditional

(39:29):
gender roles?

Speaker 5 (39:30):
When when when, when like taken to.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
This level, how harmful it is that people are willing
to get sick and make others sick just to conform
to these rigid ideas of gender. Is it really is
so sad, like gender is a hell of a drug.

Speaker 6 (39:45):
Really, I mean, it really is kind of funny because
they did make this a masculine thing, to the point
that when Trump was sick and came back, they were like,
he beat it, He's a real man.

Speaker 5 (39:54):
He out did this and he's.

Speaker 6 (39:56):
Too strong for that, like literally putting on these things
as of he fought in a wrestling match and beat
a world champion, like it was that level.

Speaker 5 (40:05):
And that's what people were pushing.

Speaker 6 (40:07):
Even to the point that he's talking about being immune
and of course spreading more disinformation, causing this whole conversation
about wanting to kiss people, which is a whole different
weirdness that I was like, what is happening? But all
of that to say is like it has become this
fine line. And it started at the very beginning of
the virus, like at the very beginning when they're like

(40:28):
this could be preventative, let's try this, it became a
a is a female versus male thing, it's a feminine
versus a masculine thing. And it's played even deeper as
more and more, over two hundred and what fifteen thousand
people have died in our country and it's kind of like,
what is happening in this point as well as the
fact that the majority of people who are really affected

(40:49):
is the black community, is the elderly community, are those
with morbidities, and why are we seeing that as a week?

Speaker 4 (40:56):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this up. I hate
that so much. I think that there's so much wrong
with this equating. You know.

Speaker 5 (41:05):
So if you follow that logic.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
That Trump is strong because he was able to quote
unquote beat COVID, you know, so whatever you know, does
that mean that the over two hundred thousand people that
we have lost were week And I also think it
really plays into this ablest trope around sickness, around healthy bodies.
You know, I really I hate the way that we

(41:30):
talk about it. I truly do. And I think we
saw it at the beginning of the pandemic when the
party line or the standard line was only the sick
and weak will die, and there was this sort of
implication of you know, A, they're expendable and B there
was a sort of unsaid vibe at least that I

(41:50):
felt like I saw where it's like, wouldn't we be
better off without them anyway?

Speaker 5 (41:54):
You know? And I just think that like it really.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Played into these incredibly disturbing ablest tropes around you know,
whose lives are valuable and whose aren't, and who's are
expendable and who's aren't. Just because you're somebody who is
older or somebody who is you know, chronically ill.

Speaker 5 (42:14):
Your life matters. You deserve to live a fulfilling.

Speaker 4 (42:17):
And enriching life. You're not expendable in society. People talking
about like their grandparents. Just because your your grandparent is
elderly doesn't mean that they can just.

Speaker 5 (42:28):
Die and it's fine.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
I really, I really have a big problem with the
way that the way that that was framed early on,
and certainly the way that Trump talking about COVID as
you beat it like as if it was a wrestling match,
the way that that kind of played into it, I.

Speaker 5 (42:41):
Really really hate it.

Speaker 6 (42:43):
Right, and then again him counting this whole herd immunity,
which the World Health Organization just was like, police, this
is unethical and immoral to play pretend like this is okay,
because what you're saying in the herd immunity mentality is
people should die and they'll be okay. That literally giving
permission to kill off people because they're not quote unquote

(43:04):
strong enough when in actuality, we don't know who is
affected exactly why. I mean, we obviously know that some
of the people who have been affected, with not some
a lot of people who have been affected have com
abilities and have died. Doesn't mean they should have died,
doesn't mean they would have been dead without that. This
is kind of the argument that I've had to have
with people. I'm like, yeah, but tell me this, because
the same argument that was like, well, everybody's dying of

(43:26):
COVID nowadays, even if it's not COVID, they're just putting
it on death certificate. So I'm like, but tell me this.
If it wasn't for COVID, would they be alive right now? Well, yeah, okay, then,
oh my god. It's this whole mentality.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
Bless you for entertaining these conversations and trying to inform
the masses a loss of.

Speaker 6 (43:46):
My family, to be honest, But anyway, uh yeah, that's
just such a whole big thing. But it kind of
comes down to once again this whole like masculine versus
feminine point of view and why we continue to have
to have a fight about what's wrong and what's right,
and we know, let's talk about the current Supreme Court

(44:07):
hearing in confirmation is the fact that there is a
lot at stake, especially for marginalized people, most likely for
mar Yeah, absolutely, can we talk about this whole like
they're trying to make her a hero because she is
a mom who has adopted black children, which I want
to vomit, but just go ahead and add that there

(44:29):
be because that's nothing more infuriating than tokenizing children because
the family may have done something that is just fine
and responsible, and it is that something you're called to
do and if you find yourself in a good place
that you can adopt these wonderful children that need Holmes
was great, But we also know that a lot of
times this comes with white savior complex, which has a
lot of implications and a lot of trauma behind this.

(44:54):
And now we're seeing it played as her plant being
the hero and they're touting her.

Speaker 5 (44:58):
As a new RBG.

Speaker 6 (45:00):
Can we talk about how social media is kind of
helping in this rhetoric.

Speaker 5 (45:04):
Yeah, it's funny that you say this.

Speaker 4 (45:05):
So my in one of my day jobs, I'm working
with feminist groups and women's groups to you know, track
this and you know, keep an eye on how messages
about her are being framed online. And you're exactly right
that she is being framed as this feminist hero. And listen,
Sam to your point about the way that she has
been framed as a hero for adopting black children. I mean,

(45:29):
just one proximity to blackness does not make someone anti racist.
So being so saying like I have an adopted black daughter,
I have a black you know spouse, I have black friends.
Obviously that doesn't make somebody anti racist. And two, what
really makes me sad is that that thinking, the thinking
that she is a hero for adopting black children, it
really just it really leaves out the adopted kids.

Speaker 5 (45:53):
You know.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
I just really hate the way that when we have
these conversations, they often cent her, the white person who
adopts did children you know, their story, you know, as
a hero, or their story as someone who you know,
did this great thing, And it really just leads doesn't
leave a lot of room for the agency of the kids.
And I think that like most people who I know

(46:15):
who have adopted children for them, they say, you know, oh,
don't tell me that my kids are so lucky that
I adopted them. We are the lucky ones that we
adopted our kids. And I think that most people who
have adopted kids really want to center their kids and
not make it seem like they's some kind of a
hero for what.

Speaker 5 (46:32):
They did, right. I think it's fun.

Speaker 6 (46:35):
I found it interesting because one of the first things
I saw about her was of course a misleading post.
Not misleading, it was misleading because they posted a picture
of her sister instead of her and their black children,
which I.

Speaker 5 (46:50):
Hilarious, just walk about.

Speaker 6 (46:51):
You can't even find their like hell family, I mean,
come on, But that's the first thing they wanted to
tell was well, obviously she can't be racist because she
has two children. Obviously she uh is anti choice because
she believes an adoption. And of course I am adopted
as well, And I get told that often to my face,
that I should be anti choice because I was, you know, saved,

(47:14):
because I wasn't aborted, And I'm like, well, no, there's
a whole lot of other complications to that story, and
we won't we won't go there. But being told that
you should be grateful and having these things, but honestly
putting this on a platform and making her the idealist.
But we know that, uh, the white couple that actually
drove the children off the cliff and killed themselves and

(47:34):
the children with them. We see things like that which
doesn't always happen. I talked about a family recently who
are YouTube families, adopted an Asian child who was autistic
and then gave them away.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
I remember that. I remember that.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
And what's what's a lot about that story is that
when they were trying to adopt their child, Hutsley, they
gave him a new name, but they chose was Huxley.
They were before that, they were on message boards asking
people were looking to adopt someone from another country who
has disabilities, but as they put it, like disabilities that

(48:07):
are easier to manage, you know, like they were it
seemed as if they were trying to gear upon Yeah,
they were hand picking.

Speaker 5 (48:14):
You know, their child for what.

Speaker 4 (48:15):
It seems like we want to get, we want to
get the attention that comes with this, but we don't
want it to be that hard. Like I really that story.
Not to go off on a tangent, but that story
just broke my heart. It really broke my heart. When
people say things like this to your face about how
you must feel about abortion because you're someone who was adopted.

Speaker 5 (48:33):
What like what is that like? Like, what is your response?

Speaker 6 (48:37):
Oh girl, this is a whole big conversation. But a
lot of I mean a lot of this has to
do with the anxiety of being having an imposter syndrome
and being told this is about what I should feel
and when I am against it or what I don't
feel that way, having to backtrack and explain myself even
more because I feel like I have to justify something

(48:57):
that shouldn't have to be automatically justified. That makes sense, Yeah,
and so yeah, it's this is a whole narrative that's
placed on me that I'm like, grew up with saying yes,
I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful, don't say anything bad,
don't say anything bad, and then waking up as an
adult be like that sucked. Some of these things are
really bad and having to acknowledge that. And that's kind

(49:18):
of the thing. Is like when you sit here in
the background and she's not necessarily she because I can't
say she did it, but whoever is trying to push
her forward as a saint is using her children as
the narrative, as subjects, as tokens for her her. It's
an incredibly distraught type of moment of like, what the
hell are you doing? You're using these kids without knowing

(49:40):
what the hell is happening behind behind the scenes, and.

Speaker 4 (49:44):
Kids aren't props, you know, kids aren't props. To further
some rhetorical message or you know idea. It's just it's
so like I said, I just feel I feel bad
for kids who have to whose stories get reduced in
public in this way. And I can't even imagine what
that feels like.

Speaker 6 (50:02):
Right well, I mean, just now that I've gone on
my tangent, just to go back, it's kind of incredible
to see how social media has been pushing her this way,
even the White House tweets have been pushing her in
this way of trying to a make acb happen, as
if she is the new you know, Ruth Bader, and
I'm like, no, stop it and be trying to hide

(50:24):
any of her past stuff, including the several conversations and
seminars that she was a part of that was very
anti choice. And it's kind of interesting to see how
the social media narrative has really dwindled it down to
making her the hero.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
Oh yes, oh yes, And I think that you know,
I like if you if like so. The hearing is
going on today right now as we're as we're recording this,
and I checked into it earlier, and the conversation on
social media one is really being dominated by folks on
the right who are doing exactly that. And so I
do think that they are just kind of hitting this message,
like you know, the idea that if you say something

(51:00):
a million times, it kind of makes it seem true.
They're just continuing to hit this message like she is
the new feminist hero. Isn't it great that we that
we get to, you know, have this new feminist hero.
Something that someone said when RBG died is that so
many of the things, the specific policies and things that
RBG gave us, you know, things that have made not

(51:22):
just the lives of women, but everybody better. It's like
RBG opened the door, and now the person who is
trying to take her place is shutting.

Speaker 5 (51:30):
That door for so many of us. And it's just
it's like twisting the knife.

Speaker 6 (51:34):
Man.

Speaker 5 (51:34):
I don't know, it's so it's so hard.

Speaker 4 (51:36):
It's been a rough it's been I mean not to
be too dramatic, but when.

Speaker 5 (51:41):
RBG died, it was.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
The cherry on like it felt like the cherry on
a sandwich of a year. Like that's the one I
can say it.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
We have a little bit more for you listeners, but
first we have one more quick break.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
For word from our sponsor and er back, Thank you, sponsor.

Speaker 6 (52:15):
What are some things that we can do to stop
some of this misinformation from being spread right now?

Speaker 4 (52:23):
Well, the most important thing to think about is, you know,
there's so much disinformation and misinformation out there. The most
important thing that all of us, anybody listening.

Speaker 5 (52:31):
Right now, can do is to become.

Speaker 4 (52:33):
A trusted source of accurate and positive information. Right so,
you know, make sure that the people in your community
have the accurate information they need to vote, make sure
that they understand what they're voting for, who they're voting for,
make sure that they have that information, and kind of
become an influencer.

Speaker 5 (52:51):
In your own little pocket of the internet.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
Even if you only have five ten followers, somebody on
your timeline, whether it's your family member, your friend, probably
look to you and.

Speaker 5 (53:00):
Thinks this person knows what they're talking about.

Speaker 4 (53:02):
I can count on this person to provide accurate information.
So focus on, you know, becoming that person in your
online community.

Speaker 5 (53:11):
And really that is a good the most.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
Important thing we can all do to inoculate our communities
against disinformation. Another important thing to note is you don't
want to inadvertently help disinformation or misinformation spread.

Speaker 5 (53:24):
I see this all the time on social media.

Speaker 4 (53:26):
Because of the way that social media works, it's algorithm based.
People you know, will see a tweet that's wrong or
misleading and they'll retweet it to debunk it. But because
the algorithm is just like pushing it into more people's
feed so you're actually helping it grow. So never retweet,
never share, even if it's to debunk it, because you're
only going to make it grow. So instead focus on

(53:47):
just posting positive information and accurate information about how people
can vote and make sure that folks know, make sure
that people have the information they need to vote in
these new, these different ways that we're doing it now,
vote by mail, all of that, make sure that they
have the information they need to do it safely, and
just focus on putting that message out.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Oh those are great tips.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
What are there any resources you want to shout out
or any groups you want to shout out who are
particularly fighting disinformation right now?

Speaker 4 (54:16):
Well, Ultraviolet, a groups that I work with, is really
doing a lot of work to make sure that just people,
you know, everyday people have the information they need to
you know, not make disinformation spread. Also, groups like the
Pen America Foundation are putting together guides. Sam you mentioned
that you often have conversations with your family if you're
someone who's listening and you're like, yes, I know this,

(54:37):
but my wild uncle posts wild things in the group
chat or on the WhatsApp group or on Facebook.

Speaker 5 (54:44):
Pen America Foundation has a great.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
Guide about how to talk to the people in your
community about their use or spread of disinformation or misinformation,
Because nobody wants to be the person that's like getting
into a long ass Facebook back and forth with your
uncle that you're going to see at Thanksgiving and it's
going to get awkward, and everybody's going to be seeing it.
Like nobody wants that. There are better ways to do it,
So definitely check out pen America's guide.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
Love it are there.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
What do you think like social media companies should be
doing to deal with all of this?

Speaker 4 (55:16):
Oh my gosh, I mean they've pretty much done nothing,
so I think they could start by doing something. You know,
I think we really have to have a real reckoning
around the ways that social media platforms like Facebook and
Twitter have allowed disinformation to run rampant and really cause
chaos and our democracy. So at the very base level,

(55:38):
I would love to see, you know, Facebook be more
transparent about their policies and how they are enforced. Enforce
their existing policies that are on the book, you know,
every now and then when they have some sort of
big pr disaster like that kid out in Kenosha who
shocked those two protesters and used Facebook events to organize
you know, come to arms or you know, beare arms rally,

(56:01):
that event went against their policies. So you know, it's
difficult to trust Facebook when they come and say like, oh,
we're gonna have a new policy, we're gonna crack out
on this, or that they should be enforcing their existing
policies and you know, having more transparency around how those
policies are enforced. So that's the very baseline thing they
can do to help prevent the spread of harmful disinformation

(56:25):
and misinformation and also violence on their platforms.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah, yeah, And I hope that. I hope that happens
because I know all of us are being exposed to
this more and more, and we have people we care
about being exposed to it more and more. And I
hope that next time you're on show, Bridget our conversation
is more positive and upbeat.

Speaker 5 (56:50):
I don't know where.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
We'll be in a month from now.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
But fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
I hope so too. I hope so too.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Oh my gosh, so thank you so much for being
here and having this conversation, much needed conversation. So looking
forward to having you on the show in the future.
Where can the listeners find you in the meantime, Well, you.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
Can listen to and subscribe to my podcast. There are
no girls on the internet. On iHeartRadio, this very network,
we don't just have enraging conversations.

Speaker 5 (57:25):
Some some of them are fun and.

Speaker 4 (57:27):
Interesting and insightful or touching.

Speaker 5 (57:29):
They are not just in raging, I promise.

Speaker 4 (57:32):
And you can follow me on Twitter at at Bridget
Marie or on Instagram at Bridget Marie and.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
DC awesome and definitely do that listeners if you're not
doing it already. If you would like to contact us,
you can Our email is Stuff Media Moms Stuff at
iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Instagram at
stuff I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard.

Speaker 5 (57:53):
Thanks Andrew, and.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You,
The production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio is
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