The Internet Gender Gap

What is the internet gender gap and how do we solve it?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff
I never told you protection of I heart radio. Today
we're talking about the internet webs Yes, and I feel
like you and I have already told the story of

(00:27):
our because we're caring from small towns and the internet
was slow at best. I had a thirty minute time
period where that was the only we split it up
between me and my siblings. We only had thirty minutes each.
We did have a computer room, like Bridget mentioned in
a recent episode where you write it out during food

(00:48):
like there's a big sign in all coups, right right,
But yeah, those like early experiences of just waiting so
long for these web pages to load. I guess this
isn't necessarily related to the Internet. But since we've already
told those stories, do you remember when you first bought
like the computer in the house. Oh see, I did

(01:11):
not have internet growing up, so I would travel to
my friend's houses or stay at a library. So there
was no internet until I left for college. And I
was the last kid in the house, so we didn't
have it. I think I stayed. Yeah, I stayed over
at my aunt's one night to do a full report
because she had it, but she was in town as

(01:32):
where we were in the outskirts of town. Like this
is why I still say I'm going into town when
I actually lived in a town, Like it's a part
of my vocabulary, my like speech, because that wasn't a
literal thing for me. People made fun of me when
I went to college, and I would say that They're
like what, But so I don't know because I was
trying to think right before you asked me this, How

(01:54):
did my parents get that computer? Where did that come from?
When I came home from college? Because I think I
told the story where I was on the webs after
I come home from college one summer, the only summer
I did this, and our house got struck my lightning
and it happened beyond the computer, and that's when everything burned.

(02:14):
So to me, that would the one and only time
I think I used the computer. That a curse computer itself.
And now I'm thinking back, I was like, I don't
know where did they buy this? Was it given to them?
I'm actually very surprised they had one even after we left,
because to this day, I think I don't know if

(02:34):
my mother has an email address. I'm sure she does,
I'm not sure. And the only reason my father had
an email address was because he had to have it
for work. What about you? And I'm still gonna be
I'm gonna be thinking about this for a while now. Well,
I I would like to put in here too. I
have some friends who are you know, still in the

(02:55):
long ago where I grew up, or other small towns
that still have like the one computer room in the
house where you go and it's like this old desktop.
And I have many fond memories of my grandparents house
because they had a nicer computer than we did, but
it was in a computer room and I would play
that like what was it Johnny Skater game and the

(03:18):
mouse Chap game. Oh good day. I don't even know
what those are me either. I can barely remember, but
they were fun. I remember Mine Sweep Mine Solitaire, and
there was this detective game. To this day, I wish
I could remember what that was, because I love solving mysteries.
But my family and he was we went to a

(03:39):
store and I so hope that this brings back nostalgic
memories for some and then really confused his younger listeners.
It was like buying a car like, imagine you go
in there's a lot of desk, like big bulky desktops.
They're not on desk either, They're sitting on the floor
on carpets. And the salesperson comes out and walks you around,

(04:03):
and we'll be like, this is the Gateway. N it
comes with this mug, and that's what we got, the Gateway.
You know, now that I'm thinking about it, I don't
think I've ever owned a brand new computer laptop because
my brother for a little while got into his own
little restoring business for laptops and it would just refurbish

(04:27):
and he would just give it to me. I'm like cool.
And then after that I would work and they would
just provide you currently using our work computer work laptop.
So I just bought a Chromebook, but I don't know
if I've used it more than three times. The Gateway,
Oh my god, it came with the mug and a
cow print mouse cow print. Yes, wow, memory, y'all. Yes,

(04:52):
it would be very old for those who don't know
what we're talking about. Yeah, it was. It was a
wild experience, but it was I remember being so excited
and thinking like this whole world is going to open
for me this whole world. Yes, brand new world. It
was agreed. I guess that's a segway into what we're
talking about today, which is more about the Internet. Yes, yes,

(05:16):
so today we're talking about the Internet gender gap. So
the Internet is incredibly important to modern life, from access
to education to increasingly daily functions like paying bills, banking,
booking appointments, including vaccine appointments, as Samantha and I were
just discussing, tell a medicine appointments, keeping up with others,
staying informed, protesting, and of course entertainment. If I, as

(05:40):
I've often said, and I know people hate hearing this,
but I feel like I've handled the pandemic pretty well.
But if I didn't have the Internet, it would be
a very very different story. I really do wonder what
would have happened. Well, obviously what you from home would
have been impossible, and so people would be in such disarray.
Had it not been for this type of technolo oology,

(06:00):
we would be like seriously screwed. Yes, But also this
is also why we need to talk about this gap
in general, like why we continue to harp on the
fact that accessibility is so so important and the lack
of it how it is damaging and crippling for a
lot of people in families, Oh absolutely, and yes, access

(06:21):
to the internet is critical and a lot of business
arenas too, and allows for entrepreneurs to start businesses, sell products,
find jobs, and improve professional skills. Over of the world's
jobs involve a digital component, and some estimates indicate that
all global GDP will be digitized by um and I know,

(06:43):
like I can't remember the number, but it was a
very big number of financial transactions happen online now and
things like rant and and Venmo just being huge in
that space, and for those living in areas with laws
or social taboos around women working Instagram businesses can still
sometimes be a possibility. Thousands of women have done just
that in Saudi Arabia, right, and we've really seen the

(07:06):
importance of it throughout this pandemic, as we were just saying,
which has also how that is again how in many
ways it is a privilege, whether it's based on where
you live, your income, or down gender and racial lines.
Is not equally accessible to everyone, as we were saying.
And that's not even getting into the speed of the internet.
Internet free, which by the way, is hilarious because even

(07:29):
if you have all the money in the world, you
might not be able to control that. End the story.
Or Internet harassment, which has been a big thing going
on in Twitter, especially for women journalists right now. Um
will probably come back and talk about that later on
and online dangerous that silence women. Yep. And some reports
show that one in five girls leave or significantly reduced

(07:50):
their social media presence due to harassment, which I think
every single to the time I've seen someone say I
have to leave social media, it's pretty much been a woman,
like from my feed, yeah, almost always, or it's very
rarely a dude who's leaving because his wife was such
or his whoever he's attached to that is a woman.

(08:11):
It was the target and therefore it kind of spilled
over to him on every now and again because he
is the harasser who's getting quote unquote canceled. Right, But
we're not going to go into that too much right now.
Um So, in the words of the Worldwide Web Foundation, quote,
women around the world report being bombarded by a culture
of misogyny online, including aggressive, often sexualized hate speech, direct

(08:34):
threats of violence, harassment, and revenge porn involving use of
personal slash private information for defamation. And they are also
five times less likely to pursue a career in tech.
As we've talked about previously on Facebook, Google and Apple
all have less than of women on staff as of seventeen,
which of course is not helping when they continue to

(08:55):
gas light their female employees. Yes, and and we've talked
about how a lot of women have said again this
whole thing, this like aggressive toxic environment is a part
of why they don't go into it or can't stay
in it. Some experts actually speculate that because they are
less women online and in tech, it fosters an online

(09:16):
environment that allows for more harassment and toxic behavior online,
thus bullying more women into silence, so very vicious cycle,
which makes sense. And that goes back to the biases
and coding, right, who's making the code, who's making these programs.
If you don't have women are marginalized people in the
room making them, then of course they're being overlooked and

(09:37):
those problems will continue. And limiting access to the internet
are cyberstalking are forms of abuse women and girls to
deal with. Two not to mention, yes, revenge porn and
highly sexualized deep fakes, which is the thing that terrifies
me and is getting the technology is getting better all
the time, and in countries where open discussion of women's

(09:58):
sexual health and issues might be limited, the Internet is
a huge help there. Art can be right. So as
we missed the United Nations Sustainable Development goals of achieving
universal affordable Internet access worldwide, and reports show that at
the current rate that won't be achieved until tree probably
gonna be dead by then. An estimated two billion girls

(10:22):
and women don't have access. The UN has set a
new goal on their Agenda for Sustainable Development ensuring the
quote use of enabling technology in particular I c T
S or Internet communications technology to promote the empowerment of women. Yeah,
so let's run some numbers and caveat before we do.

(10:43):
The numbers can vary really widely, and that is based
on how people calculate and report, and we'll try to
point out those instances in there. But if if we're
going through some numbers, you're like that that doesn't really
match up that other number. Yeah, yeah, we know there's
there's some confusion around it. So around half of the

(11:05):
world is still offline. Since the Internet became more widespread
amongst the public and the nineties, there has been a
persistent gender gap in users. Women's access to the Internet
is higher than men's and only eight percent of countries
and gender equality exists and only twenty five percent of
countries everywhere else men have more access. A two thousand

(11:26):
study found that quote to statistically significant gender gaps exist
on the Internet in access and in use, and that
around quote one half of the digital divide between men
and women on the Internet is fundamentally gender related. And
the social construction of technology theory suggests you can't not
think about gender when you discuss technology because technology models

(11:48):
after those who and the society that made it from
the paper gendered space. The digital divide between male and
female users in Internet public access sites quote. Technology enable
changes in society, So technology plays a role in the
construction of gender by creating new possibilities of how gender
roles might be performed in a new area. So. Another

(12:09):
study found that financial independence and internet access are correlated,
as the price and prise. Women statistically have more control
of our family decisions and invest ten times more of
their earnings than men do. So a two thousand to
study found that there were no gender significant gender differences
in how men and women use the Internet. Really, even
with porn, I think it was more talking about um okay.

(12:36):
So apparently there was this assumption that men were more
comfortable with it and it made women anxious and they
just used it for interpersonal connection. So they thought that
like men were way more technical about it and women
were like way too scared to use it, okay, okay,
so in that realm because I'm like, I don't, I
don't know, that's interesting. I feel like when it comes
to who access as porn, statistically, it's men, right, I mean,

(12:59):
women still like access it, but most likely and when
you break it down in those ways of like, yes, women,
well I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but like
do use your personal connection wait like a Pinterest and
Twitter and things like that more than men. So there
are those differences, but I think it was more looking
into like women only used it for that and nothing

(13:23):
else like porn I guess you could put into some
people would argue health but entertainment, and you know women
watch entertainment for health. Like it was more like attitudes
towards it got you, got you. So another study did
find that video games, which I was going to talk
about to help acclimate people to technology. And since this

(13:44):
has been traditionally a boy's arena quote unquote, boys and
men had an advantage, but recent numbers are saying that
that is changing and we love it and we're probably
gonna talk about it later, but yeah, yeah, of samanthem
Um from the O E c D Report bridgeting the

(14:06):
digital gender divide include upskill innovate quote. While eight six
percent of sellers on Etsy are women, there are proportionately
fewer female sellers in traditional shops for home furnishing in
household appliances. Furthermore, with sixty seven female host on Airbnb,
there are more female host on home sharing services as
such as Airbnb then there are women employed in the

(14:27):
tourism industry. Higher female employment rates can also be found
in the ride sharing economy. The right hearing economy has
more female chauffeurs than there are female taxi drivers. Transport
services as ubers show a higher female employment rate for
freelancer individual workers than comparable transport services in the United States.
The proportion of female drivers is higher for Uber than

(14:49):
for traditional taxis eight percent working part time or flexible
schedules because of a family, education, or health reason are
the main reasons for female drivers as compared to in
the case of MIT. Now, that is a whole separate
conversation that we should revisit. Say we talked about that,
right pastos have talked about um, I think drive sharing

(15:12):
and maybe definitely um No, Pinterest wasn't nothing I talked about,
so it's been covered. But there are issues inherent when
you're having conversations about a big economy like this and
why more women are able to succeed in those spaces
or you know, succeeded. I guess you can argue as
well why that's happening and if it's good. But the

(15:36):
point is being connected to the Internet opens job opportunities
for women. Right. I remember having what I used to
ride ubers and other right chairs because that that has
not happened in the past year. But I remember, specifically
when we we're going to dragon Con, which hopefully will
come back, a woman who had picked us up and

(15:59):
taken us back comb. She was talking about how this
was her full time gig because she was able to
work within the system to make it profitable for her.
Because we also know that Uber for all, it is
all the intent behind it was meant for a part time,
extra money thing, which is also why they didn't want
to treat them as employees and treat them as contractors,

(16:21):
which is not gonna happen anymore. But that was that
whole level. But also it took away money and made
you know, Uber the company billionaire companies while leaving uh
individual drivers in the lurch and at times holding bags
owing money back because of certain markets that they had
to hit or certain certain points that they had to

(16:41):
hit in order to earn money. But she was really
good and making sure that she could work that system
for her advantage. But she definitely talked about how it
took her a few months to get there, but now
she loves it. Of course, I'm sure if I talked
to her again that would have changed. But it was
interesting how she was plotting it and how she had
to be so methodical to do so. Yeah, and that's

(17:02):
going to be interesting after as we come out of
this pandemic, because we talked about how perhaps this might
have pressured companies. Are shown companies that you can offer
flexible and work from home schedules, which I think is
one of the real pluses of something for women, especially

(17:24):
in the gig economy. So we'll see how that shakes out.
But certainly that is a high point I think for
people who work in those industries. And we do have
even more numbers for you. But first we have a
quick break for a word force sponsor and we're back,

(17:53):
thank to sponsor. Yeah. So, a study found four key
categories preventing the gender Internet gap, from closing access to handsets,
internet connectivity, infrastructure and literacy, and data availability, which should
not be surprising. They broke that down by category and
identified specific reasons for each. Or instance, there are stereotypes

(18:15):
in countries like India around women's cell phone usage that
it denotes a promiscuous and or unfaithful woman. I'm sorry,
I did not mean to laugh at that. But or
if a woman lives in certain rule areas where she
can't get a signal, she may not be allowed to
leave her home without an escort, if at all. Also,
there's an element of time. If women are expected to

(18:36):
handle the caretaking, they may not have time to go
somewhere to charge up or get more money on their phone.
And if that's something they don't have easy access to well,
there you go. Yeah, this was a real wake up
call for me, a very privileged wake up call. But
when I lived in the middle of nowhere in Australia,
there was no signal, and like you had to use

(18:56):
this like a landline phone that only worked at so
times and it was for the whole like area, so
there's hundreds of people with this one phone and it
might not even work. And then you had to dial
in like a ten digit number and then the area
code of the country you're trying to reach, and then
that number, and if you missed up one of the numbers,

(19:16):
like too bad, so sad because only fifteen minutes per person.
And then like when I finally I got closer to
civilization in quotes where there was more populated, I had
a cell phone, but it was an old cell phone,
and I had to put like credits on it, you know,
and it had to charge it up at like internet cafes,

(19:37):
and it barely worked, like it didn't get good signal.
And that's why I, like, I know, I've told bits
and pieces of this story before, but I got stuck
in Australia for a while and I got back to
it was like a seventy eight hour trip to get
back to San Francisco, I think, And I had no

(19:57):
money and I couldn't my phone to charge, and I
just cried because I couldn't contact my parents to be
like I'm home. I finally made it, But just things
like that, I think, if you live in a society
like Samantha and I do, you can forget I mean
even in the US, but right, I mean, even like

(20:18):
just the smallest inconvenience, it is so irritating. But to
have to, like on a daily basis, be controlled in
that manner is a whole different story. Yeah. And speaking
of these public spaces, men use public spaces more than
women by about ten percent where they might access technology.
And even so there's a hierarchy of comfort that has

(20:40):
been documented. It just makes sense to me. But people
are more comfortable accessing the Internet in their own home.
And then there's like three other things, and then the
libraries last, or like public spaces is last. There was
one exception though, as per that previously mentioned gendered spaces
study quote, the observations conducted for the study showed that
men consistently outnumbered women in computer usage in public access

(21:03):
sites such as community technology centers and libraries both in
nine and two thousand nine. This pattern was consistent even
when taking into account ethnicity and age. The only exception
was among African American adolescents. Black female teens used public
access sites computers more often than Black male teens. A
study that analyzes this at length included that African American

(21:24):
teenage men saw the library is a place that was
not for them, as opposed to African American teenage women
who saw it as a comfortable space, which I just
find interesting because we have talked so much about like
the power of black women in terms of of like
creating technology and in technology spaces. So just find that interesting.
So does that mean some of the ideas that the

(21:45):
library is a more feminine space? I would imagine that
if I had to put it in, you know, being
in my own just gender biases that I don't know
I've picked up, I would put the library in more
of a feminine space. But I mean is also I
would argue clearly like maybe a race aspect to that

(22:05):
as well, right of just not feeling safe in a
public space. That's interesting. So, but countries that have a
large Internet gap also have a gap in mobile phone usage,
which I feel like yes, which makes sense because mobile
phones are the most common way of accessing the Internet.
Two million less women than men own a mobile phone

(22:26):
and seven million fewer women than men have a smartphone.
That's a giant number. As of now of the world's
population lives within reach of cell signals and as of
the population owned a phone. And this gap that we're
talking about, the Internet gender gap has a huge economic impact.
According to the I t U, if six hundred million

(22:48):
more women girls got access to the Internet, and remember
that's not even all of them, it could translate to
a boost of global gross domestic product somewhere between thirteen
to eighteen billion dollars over the next three years. The
mckensey Institute estimates that by removing obstacles for women achieving parody.
So if I'm understanding it's correctly they're talking about like

(23:10):
all obstacles, but that would translate to a global GDP
growth of twenty eight trillion dollars over a ten year period.
That's a lot. That's a lot. Numbers from twenty nineteen
suggests that the percentage of women using the Internet was
compared to fifty eight percent of men. That means, relatively

(23:31):
the gender Internet gap is seventeen. Others estimate that the
number is closer to even. Again, it depends on how
you calculate it, and it does vary pretty widely. If
you narrow it down to buy country. For instance, in uh,
North American and Europe, the gap is more are less zero.
If we look at Asia, the Pacific, Africa, in the

(23:54):
Middle East, the gap is often not only substantial but
also growing since when or more users have gotten access
to the Internet, and a good chunk of those users
are men. Some of the highest gaps when using women
as the reference group are sub Saharan Africa and South
Asia one and thirty seven percent. And again there is

(24:17):
based on methodology, so you can get different numbers depending
on where you look. Some groups of women are even
more significantly impacted, like the elderly refugees, people who live
in rural areas, and people with disabilities. And don't forget
not everyone has electricity. Sometimes getting proof of identity to
open an account is an issue too, as our laws

(24:38):
against women owning property or making money. Yes, cost is
a big barrier in this whole thing as well, because
women in many areas have a less access to money,
they might be forced to get poorer quality devices with
less connectivity if it's something they can afford at all.
All right, so that's a lot of numbers, so many numbers.
So let's look at some potentials lutions. But first let's

(25:01):
pause for one more quick break for a word from
our sponsor, m every back, Thank you sponsored. So yeah,
let's talk about solutions. Maybe, So, most people use mobile

(25:24):
phones to access the Internet, Bridging the mobile phone gap
could be one way of addressing this problem. And another
issue tied up with this one is the fact that
for a good percentage of the world's population, school is
where they are introduced to technology, and as long as
girls don't have equal access to schooling is going to
be a pretty big factor to this problem. Literacy rates

(25:44):
obviously also play into this. Yes, some organizations have launched
initiatives to lessen the gender gap on the Internet, including
Equals Partnership and their collaboration with United Nations University or
You and You to bring together the public and private
sets to get more women and girls online. They created
this really cool gender Digital Inclusion map that you can

(26:06):
use to navigate to get information about this based on
location Equals also has pushed for further research or data.
Always Good and with the You and You has formed
a group of twenty nine academic partners to collect more
data about this issue. The World Bank and CEES have
partnered to form the Global Tech Challenge Solutions for Women

(26:26):
as well, and similarly, there's the African Girls Can Code
Initiative a g c c I and an initiative of
I TU, You and Women and the African Union Commission
dedicated to providing girls and women with digital tools and skills.
The Broadband Commission for Sustainable Developments Working Group on the
Digital Gender Divide has released a number of recommendations as well,
and several countries have launched initiative to combat this problem. Yeah,

(26:51):
in general, more gender focused data is needed. Let's just yes,
obviously we always need more. Increasing awareness arounds issues and
deficits of getting more women online is very important step
in this whole thing as well, and then curbing online
abuse and putting in place structures of reporting and prevention
also very important. Addressing toxic work environments and tech getting

(27:13):
more women in tech. There are programs that dedicated to
distributing phones to women experiencing domestic abuse as well online
or video up skilling classes to increase user confidence because
that actually that actually, uh, it's a it's a bigger
problem that you might imagine, especially if you did grow
up with technology and we were just talking about this

(27:33):
when it comes to the vaccine and older people not
feeling confident in the Internet, that really can keep you
away from like learning more are using it. So offering
education opportunities, addressing systemic education issues and inequalities and childcare
and domestic work, equal pay yeah, I know, equal funding

(27:54):
the women owned startups, right, so, also improve internet literacy.
That means it can help with the issues of oh,
I don't know, grooming, sex trafficking, harassment, and technophobia. So
instead of going online and ranting about conspiracy theories, actually
teaching m h, what could be a bad moment for

(28:15):
a child and or what could be misinformation disformation. Go
listen to our friend bridget tad show that might help
you surprise surprise, and then looking into and evaluating social
media or data taxes that some countries have and the
cost of the data in general. Right, so when we
talk about the fact that people are having to pay
by minute or pay by certain small amounts because they

(28:37):
can't afford an actual plan, which are ridiculous. And we
know capitalism is not the best, especially in the marketing
like in the US, wears owned by pretty much just
two big companies. So and then ask women and other
marginalized groups to be involved in these conversations. Surprise, got
in there, got put it in there. Yeah, And it

(29:03):
seems a lot of this because the un did have
that goal that yes, was missed last year. But there's
a lot of things being written about this now and
a lot of organizations and initiatives around this whole thing.
So if you want to learn more, there is a
lot out there for you. There are a lot of
resources for you, so go check those out. And yeah,

(29:24):
all of this has been exacerbated by COVID and just yeah,
I think about it. How many things are you trying
to do digitally now to protect yourself and your family
or to make money, yes, really working from home or
going to the doctor online, all those things, school online,

(29:44):
and this pandemic has really shown the importance of it
and also our dependence on it in a lot of cases.
I think it has also shown like what works and
what doesn't work? Yeah, And school you we can talk
about No, I was just laughing at that. Did you
see that article about al zoom activates your fight or flight?

(30:09):
Doesn't really that makes so much sense something. Yeah, a
new article just came out that said to having your
coworkers space Semantha in such like close counter where you
can't get away, right. Uh. It makes me a little
more um attention deficit, like where I have to especially

(30:30):
if there's a meeting with which we have which over
fifty people, and I started flicking through like who's here,
who's that? And I no longer pay into the meeting.
I do that too. I'm just like pages through like
what people's background. But I mean just kind of talking
about the expectations we lay on kids. So if you're
having that hard of time paying attention, how are these

(30:51):
kids doing this? And then the amount of fails? Can
we talk about that? Like my partner put on a
whole YouTube video people doing stupid on Zoom. We're saying
stupid on zoom and being called out, and I couldn't
handle it. I had to walk out, like I hate
this is the worst thing in the world, because oh
my god, it's so cringe e. It is so cringe. E.

(31:13):
How many people have seen people in their underwear that
they would have never seen had it not been from
this on accident. We're not going to talk about the
really harassment, but like the accidents that have happened, and
you are mortified for the rest of your life. Yeah,
I mean, I'm as I'm a coward. I'm a video
conference coward because I I'll panic, I'll be like it

(31:34):
says connect with computer audio and there's a hundred people
on and I like, connect on mute. Well, right, and
it's not like I even have sounds happening, right, You're
in complete silence, holding your breath. And then you're like
you but yeah, I think this is an interesting thing
that COVID and the pandemic and quarantine has shown us
a lot, and it has shown a giant gap in

(31:54):
the privileges. So that's also important that we make note
of it and hopefully it will be something that we
can have a solution for or although it took to
the end almost towards the end of this year last
year for Internet a couple of these like comcasts to
be like, well, okay, we'll increase sp for those who
need it, Like really, yeah, really, and they were tossing
around like data caps because they knew we're all at home,

(32:16):
well not all of us, but the whole are. They're
still talking about doing data caps at this point because
they were like, well, we can make more money and
there's only two of us. Let's do this together, y'all. Yea,
But yes, this lack of access worse than systemic gaps
that already exists, and we're missing out all these things

(32:38):
that these women and girls without the internet have to offer.
So and I don't like that. I don't like it either.
You know what. This is one of the big things
that though people are doing things on the ground and
because people may not be sharing it on the Internet,
that we're having a hard time and missing out on
all these amazing people doing amazing works. I've just talked

(33:00):
about the frustration of trying to find some amazing people
who I get a small blip buff but I want
to know more, and they need to be highlighted because
they're doing amazing works and it should be highlighted so
that the world season instead of just the small community. Absolutely. Yes, Well,
on that note, we would love to hear from you listeners.

(33:21):
You can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at
I Hurt Medio dot com. You can find us on
Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You, are on Twitter
at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super
producer Christina. Thank you, Christina, and thanks to you for
listening Stuff I Never Told You the protection of iHeart Radio.
For more podcast from I Heard Radio, visit I Heard
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

(33:42):
favorite shows