September 10, 2024 • 45 mins
In 1967 the tiny fishing community of Shag Harbor became ground zero for one of the most infamous UFO sightings in Canadian history. More than 50 years later, people still haven't forgotten the bizarre series of lights they saw that October night... but what exactly were they? Listen in to learn more about the mysterious event known as Canada's Roswell.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow conspiracy realist. In nineteen sixty seven, the tiny fishing
community of shag of Harbor up in Canada, became ground
zero for one of the most infamous UFO sightings in
modern Western history.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And it was spooky season, y'all. It was October.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Oh, and here we are in spooky season now, so
kind of weirdly were weirdly appropriate?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Is it already spooky season?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, it's called summer ween. Yeah, it's always Halloween in America.
Let's a roll it. From UFOs to psychic powers and
government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can
turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want
you to know. A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt noel
Is on Adventures.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
They call me Ben. We were joined as always with
our super producer Paul Mission controlled decand most importantly, you
are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff.
They don't want you to know this. This is what
I'm pretty excited about, Matt. What about you?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, it's been a minute since we've really gotten our
unexplained phenomena I e UFOs Unidentified Flying Objects sometimes unidentified
submerged objects, any of those, We're We're into it.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And we had a lot of people, a lot of
our fellow listeners suggest this topic, so we picked one
one person that we wanted you to hear from directly.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Hey, boys, I'm a big fan of your show and
I really enjoy all the episodes you do. I just
had an idea for a great episode, and that's the
mystery of the Shag Harbor incident. That was a huge
UFO sighting seen by many many people, actually relatives of
(02:02):
personal friends of mine here in Eastern Canada. Happened on
the south shore of Nova Scotia back in the nineteen
sixties and not far from Oak Island, right, another awesome
place of mystery. So apparently there was a pretty substantial
RCMP investigation into that. And yeah, I think it would
make for a great episode.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, thank you anonymous caller from East Canada over there
in Nova Scotia or near Nova Scotia at least.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, thank you so much. These are two fantastic ideas
that have been on our mutual minds for some time.
Oak Island is a story all its own, and we've
done some videos on that before, right, Matt.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, we have. I cannot recall if we've actually made
a podcast episode, but we should if we haven't.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, maybe Buried Treasure episode or something tantalizing, tantalizing story
Shag Harbor however, Yeah, that's what we're going to look
at today. It has been quite a while, old friends,
since we did an episode on UFOs. I for one am.
You know, I'm still convinced that various governments are hiding
(03:11):
some sort of advanced technology or another. And you, both
of us, you especially Fox Moulder style, still want to believe.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Oh, very much true, especially with something like the incident
we're going to discuss today. Our caller said that, you know,
a bunch of people witnessed this thing, and it is
true that I would say dozens. I think dozens of
people did witness this at some point during the official incident.
(03:41):
You know, it's not a ton of people. It's not
like it was over a large city and a bunch
of you know, everyone had their cell phones or something.
We're talking nineteen sixty seven. But enough people saw it
that it wasn't just a trick of the light that
you know, a captain on a ship saw or you know,
maybe me it could be explained pretty easily.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Or something funky on the horizon seen by a pilot exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
There's there are more. There are more vantages to this
than a lot of UFO sightings.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
This is one of the most well documented UFO sightings
in modern history. To be honest, they call it Canada's Roswell,
and that's not an ironic name like Little John or something.
This really is one of the most historically significant, well
known and famous or infamous UFO sightings in Canadian history,
(04:36):
if not the most famous. So we received tons of
great episodes for specific UFO sightings. We get them a lot.
This one we were curious about because if you're not
from Canada and you don't spend much time thinking about UFOs,
you probably have not heard of shag Harper. A lot
of people who are ufologists in the United States may
(04:59):
not have heard of this. But here are the facts.
Shag Harbor is a tiny, tiny town, a village really,
and it is as as our callers said, on the
southern shore of Nova Scotia. The population is somewhere between
it's under five hundred people, it's four hundred, four and
and fifty people or so, and their big business is lobster,
(05:22):
which I love this because the lobster is amazing. But
here where we're based and landlocked Atlanta, Georgia, you get
what you pay for.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah. Yeah, And just so you have an idea of
where this is. If you do live in the United States,
as do most of you out there listening, we know
this if you are in Portland, Maine. So if you're
imagining Portland, Maine, way up there in the northeast section
of the United States, and you essentially go east. No,
(05:55):
it's not perfectly east because we live, you know, on
a globe. But if you east on a map and
you just travel that till you hit Nova Scotia, you
essentially hit Shag Harbor, just to know exactly where you are,
because Nova Scotia is essentially a peninsula that comes down.
It's close to an island, but that's a peninsula that
comes down off of Canada up on the top there.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
On the eastern side. Yeah. And this this fishing community, right,
most of their business in the fishing industry takes place
from November to May. That's going to be important for
the story as it unfolds. On a side note, I
just checked downstairs at one of the only places that
(06:40):
does sell lobster rolls. Yes, here in the area, twenty
four dollars.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
For one for like a small lobster.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Roll, right for just a regular lobster roll.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
And that's of course, to get that lobster to Atlanta
and then buy it in Pont City Market. Oh boy, now,
just saying it might be a little inflated, that's all.
That's all.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
One day, Matt. Maybe one day I'll treat myself to
a lops you know what. I might just at this point,
maybe I should just fly to Maine or Nova Scotia's.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, let's look at Dave's Lobster in Halifax. Let's see.
Let's see if they've got a menu.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I looked up some places in Shag Harbor there I
couldn't find. I couldn't get the website for Captain Wayne's
to work. But I'm interested. So if you're listening, you've
ever been to Captain Waynes in Shag Harbor, Let let
let me know what you think and let me know
what I should order when I go there, because after this,
(07:36):
after doing this research, I'm excited about taking a trip
there one day.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh I do. That would be wonderful. We should definitely
do that.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And while we're there, we can check out the Chapel
Hill Museum, Captain Wayne's, and some other restaurants, a few
tourism sites. But what sort of tourism sites, you may ask.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, you know a lot of people would probably go
out there for fishing or maybe to try and catch
their own lobster.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Dude, that would be so cool. Some people may visit
for the history of Chapel Hill is a historically significant site,
but many people visit for a different reason. They visit
Shag Harper, you see, because they are convinced that human
beings saw a UFO night, even a UFO an extra
(08:21):
terrestrial object in this town in the nineteen sixties. Here's
where it gets crazy. So let's get our let's get
our primary sources for this right, and we'll go with
the official story, and then we'll go with some speculation,
and then we'll go with some analysis.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
That sounds great.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
I feel like I'm over explaining it. That's very Alice
in Wonderland, where the Hatter says, start at the beginning,
go through the middle, and when you get to the end,
stop Now.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Signposts in my opinion are actually good, so let's keep
with them.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Okay. All right, Well we've made a promise now, Matt,
so we'll have to try to We'll have to try
to keep our stories straight, which is a problem in
the Shag Harbor tale as well. Our primary sources for
contemporary reports from the authorities and civilian witnesses come from
a paper call the Halifax Chronicle Herald, and here's most
(09:15):
of what we know. On Wednesday, October fourth, nineteen sixty seven,
at around eleven twenty pm, multiple witnesses claimed to see
the following.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Some reported a row of lights, row of lights on
a craft that was roughly sixty feet long. Now that's,
of course an approximation, but that was used several times
sixty feet long. And this row of lights on whatever
this thing was, the lights at least because a lot
of people couldn't at least several of the reports couldn't
(09:48):
see an object. They just saw the lights because of
the distance they were away. But the lights descended down
and there was some kind of noise that was emanating
from whatever this was that was. It was reported as
like a whistle, sometimes sometimes as a wooshing sound, and
it was almost like it was akin to, at least
(10:09):
some of them said, a bomb falling, or like in
a movie you would hear a bomb like beer exactly.
And it was so it was descending down right, and
then it hovered over the water out there at Shag
Harbor or right outside of Shag Harbor, essentially hovered over
the water just momentarily, and then it began to submerge.
(10:30):
And there was some really weird details we're going to
get into here with how the light functioned or didn't function.
It was very strange, but let's continue along.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Sure, Yes, yes, the object or the lights whatever, this
was submerged into the Atlantic Ocean, a famously large body
of water.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Which, by the way, if you are in Shag Harbor
to your east, nothing but water, that's it, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And emergency crews primarily the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or
the RCMP, as our caller mentioned earlier, they arrived within
fifteen minutes or so, so they're not fooling around. They
reasonably assumed this was a plane crash at first, so
lives could be on the line and the clock is ticking.
(11:21):
The Coastguard later joins in the search. Initially civilians and
authorities the way the story goes, noted a thick yellow foam,
or specifically, a glittery yellow foam. A local fishing boat
captain said this was about eighty feet wide the swath
(11:41):
of foam, and it's important to remember that he made
this observation in the darkness, based on his unaided eyesight.
According to the records, no one obtained a sample of
this strange substance, so even today we don't know what
it is. We can guess, but we don't know for
about three When the authorities search the bottom of the
(12:02):
harbor and they have no luck. They find nothing, no bodies,
no debris bupkiss. They also find when they contact Halifax
and other regional authorities, that no planes were reported missing,
And with that, the incident seemed set to be a
flash in the pan headline. Local radio reported it, The
(12:26):
Chronicle Herald reported it, but it seemed like an unusual
sighting that, like thousands and thousands of others, would eventually
end up being little more than a footnote in regional
history books. See this is the important thing. So this
happens in nineteen sixty seven, right, it's twenty nineteen now,
and this is a famous, world famous UFO incident. But
(12:51):
in let's say nineteen seventy seven, this was not the case.
Something happened between sixty seven and today day that changed
the way the public thinks about this specific night in October.
And you know, I know I'm setting us up here,
but we will tell you what that moment is. We
(13:12):
found it. But for now, let's look at the facts.
That's the gist of the story. And there are a
couple of problems with it, a couple of contradictions. If
we rely just on the articles from the Chronicle Herald,
what do we find.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
We'll tell you right after a quick word from our sponsor. Well,
if we do rely on those Chronicle Herald articles and
we just say that that's all we're gonna use, we're
gonna find a couple of things. First, is that four
teenagers said, and this is a claim, they saw four lights,
(13:49):
not three. They said that the lights were yellow or white.
So we already hear like even amongst a group of
people who were from the same vantage, saying they saw
us maybe slightly different things. They confirmed the lights were
descending coming down from the sky. One of the four
kids said the lights appeared to turn off and on
or blink in some way. Another kid said that he
(14:11):
heard the aforementioned whistling noise the some sound. So again
one of the four witnesses said, I heard it emitting
some kind of sound, But the other kids, the other
three didn't mention anything about a sound until this other
person mentioned it. Who knows if that's then some kind
of confirmation bias or wanting to be correct if you
missed it. Another teen said he heard a loud noise
(14:34):
when the lights appeared to hit the water, So some
kind of boom or splash. That's where you kind of
get that end of the bomb sound. And you know,
if it was a massive object and it impacted the water,
there would be some kind of sound. Sure, it just
depends on how far away you are if you could
hear it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Essentially, if it were indeed, a craft sixty feet long,
no matter how light it was, would make an audible noise.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
One hundred present. If a UFO falls in the water
and no one's around, does it make a sound. Yes.
Another thing you're gonna find is that a whole separate
group of people in this case, a couple other teenagers
said they saw three red orange lights this time, so
rather than white, yellow, white, or yellow descending again from
the sky forming a line at a roughly forty five
(15:20):
degree angle. Now, these two, this pair, they were actually
driving when they when they saw this, and they didn't
stop the vehicle, and the lights just kind of passed
out of you as they're driving around, and you know
you're probably somewhere near the coast over there, and they're
going to be gone even if they're descending down. So
(15:41):
we at least have two vantage points specifically from the
Chronicle Herald, specifically teenagers.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And this isn't the end of our witness list. This
is just where the witness list gets a little bit
at times murky. But picture you're self looking at an
aerial map of Shag.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Harbor and you can pull one up right now.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
You could pull one up right now now, zoom out
and taken a bigger region into your aerial view, and
there's Halifax. Okay. So local radio stations reported a glowing
object had been seen by a bunch of people who
called their newsrooms and they reported witnessing strange glowing objects
(16:27):
flying around Halifax at around ten pm.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So what is our established timeline at this point when
did the impacts at the water Do we have we
established that yet?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It would be either it would be before midnight, yes,
but after eleven twenty exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Okay, So we couped like an hour and change beforehand,
all over Halifax, and I've been as you said, like
not a significantly significant distance way, but far enough away
an hour before that you see lights, glowing objects, got.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It right, Yeah, And it would be helpful for us
to say that distance, right, it's about from Halifax, Nova
Scotia to shag Harbor, Nova Scotia. You're looking at about
two hundred and fifty five kilometers or one hundred and
fifty eight miles.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So that's pretty far.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That's according to distance between cities dot net.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Oh that's great. That's just their thing, unless it's a
driving distance of some sort.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Right, right, So the radio stations are reporting this, and
they're not the only ones. Air Canada flight three h
five noted something strange on the left side of their
plane at seven fifteen PM, and they called it a
brilliantly lit rectangular object with a string of smaller lights
(17:46):
trailing the object. At seven nineteen the pilots noticed a
sizeable silent explosion near the object, and two minutes later,
another explosion occurred and it faded to a blue cloud
around this thing, whatever it was they saw.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So they oh, got when when I read that and
I read that, all I hear is force field of
some sort, I got hit or like reacted.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we know they saw something unusual,
but we don't know necessarily whether that is tied to
this stuff that happens hours later. This is where we
want to introduce our first book, the one that people
would consider conspiratorial. Doug Ledger wrote a book called Maritime
(18:30):
UFO Files, and in this book he claims that additional
witnesses exist. Daryl Dorry and his sister Annette and Daryl's
mother were sitting on their front porch when they noticed
a large object maneuvering above the southwestern horizon. The next day,
Daryl writes a letter to the Royal Canadian Air Force
(18:53):
Greenwood based commander, asking what was flying over the water
that evening because I've never seen anything like it?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And yes, so we've got, you know, two people who
saw something and they reported it, which is you know,
always good, especially reporting it to a commander of a
base with the Royal Canadian Air Force. That's pretty cool
and it's good to know. But then you turn to
our next witness, Captain Leo Howard Mercy. Now, this gentleman,
(19:24):
you can actually find. You can find a memo because
he contacted the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and a report
was taken on the seventh of October nineteen sixty seven
and as pertaining to the fourth but an actual you
can find a written report. And so you know, we're
saying that this is taken from maritime UFO files by
(19:47):
Doug Ledger, and it's true. But a lot of times
when you're, you know, reading a book like that, it's
hard to know whether the sources are legit or real.
Right in this case, they most certainly are. So Howard Mercy,
Captain Leo Howard Mercy, he was looking at his radar.
He's standing on his ship and he's looking at four
(20:07):
blips on his deca radar. They seem to be stationary.
But then you know, he says, well, I want to
see I want to see what this is. He looks
out and he sees about twenty eight kilometers from where
he is on his ship, he could see four bright
lights in again, kind of a formation, like a rectangular
formation roughly is what he was estimating. And then the
(20:31):
entire crew of I think it was twenty, yeah, nearly
twenty fishermen who were with him on his ship, they
went out, they got on the deck, they watched this thing,
this object, whatever it is, this group of objects, they
watched it, and he was in the northeastern sky. And
then this guy Mercy radioed the Rescue Coordination Center at
the Harbor Master in Halifax and he asked for, you know,
(20:54):
something like, hey, guys, what's going on over there? And
it was one of those things where he reported knowing
that the Air Force conducted, you know, testing out in
that area where he was looking. So we didn't necessarily
think it was anything too off at least according to
the official memo and report, but he did think it
was odd, so you know, he asked for an ex explanation.
(21:17):
He filed this report with the RCMP and that was
about it. At the end of the report, it is
noted that he is considered to be a reliable type
individual that's a quote and bears a good reputation in
his community. So that's something that that was noted by
the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So, which is just them saying that he's considered a
credible reporter. He's not pranking people, he's not a crazy,
you know, paint huffing maniac who calls every weekend.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yes, someone reliable saw this, whatever it was.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
So so we have these additional witnesses, and there are
a few more. But in cases like this, where there's
something up in the sky that's not too far into
the wee hours of the night, we know that there
are almost certainly a bunch of witnesses who saw something
and did not go to the trouble of writing to
the Air Force station. Yes, because that's a lot of work.
(22:16):
So let's go their initial ideas initially. Initially, oddly enough,
most people are not thinking in terms of anything other
than mundane activities, tragedies, meteorological phenomenon. So they first assume, well,
(22:37):
maybe this is a boat, got to search that. Maybe
this is a plane, got to search for that.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, in the plane and or boat makes a lot
of sense depending on the color of the lights that
they saw, and if they were flashing or at least
on and off in some kind of repeating.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Pattern, right right, that could be distressing.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And we did notice that in a few of the witnesses.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
True, that is true. They say, well, you know what
else could fit this story? A distress flare? This is
a for people who are convinced that this was a craft.
This feels like a stick in the mud answer. But
there are some pretty compelling similarities. So, first off, flare
(23:19):
guns are standard on boats, the standard ond boats. If
there's a problem, you use a flare gun. After you
fire a flare. Have you ever fired a flare?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I have?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
They're so cool. Yeah, after you fire a flare, then
you know, there's a little bit of a delay before
it burns. It might it varies, but it might start
burning almost immediately after you shoot it off, or it
might hit its arc and then start going downward and
then ignite. But this idea with a flare gun inspired
(23:53):
some of the more skeptical thinkers to say things like
like Brian Dunning said, ssh, is it outside the realm
of possibility that someone was playing around with a flare
gun at eleven at night after killing part of a
six pack or a whole six pack or a whole
six pack. You know what I mean, because if you've
(24:14):
been drinking. Maybe shooting off a flare gun sounds like
a cool thing to do, and yes.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
And just to put it out there the way. One
of the big parts of this story that is so
fascinating is how the light landed on top of the
water for a little bit and then sunk into the.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Water, right and one of the witnesses, I think in
that group of four teenagers, one of the witnesses said
a single light remained for a moment before it submerged
or before it was put out by the water. So
later on, I mean months or years later on, people
proposed that the sighting could fit the description of something
(24:54):
like a falling satellite, which is completely a possibility nineteen
sixty seven and completely a possibility that a satellite may
have fallen.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Especially if pieces of it are breaking apart as it's
falling and you have multiple lights where fires are burning
up choces of it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely as it enters the atmosphere. And then
it could also be a meteoric fireball, so like us
falling satellite, meteors frequently break up during their fall and
that could also look like a line of lights and
depending on the angle of the viewer or your perspective
as you're watching this, it could seem to be moving
(25:33):
much more slowly than it actually is at kind of
a low angle. So the big question immediately here is
did the story change. Here's the thing. After these reports
were printed, primarily in the Chronicle Herald but also in
other papers of the time, people began to connect the
(25:54):
dots and build what could have been interpreted as separate
sightings a single cohesive narrative. That is, there's nothing wrong
with that. That's what people do. We find patterns, we
connect dots. That's how our species got to where it is.
So the crazy thing that we discovered here is that
the foam and the lights were not initially connected. No
(26:19):
one initially reported seeing the objects or lights leaving the foam,
but people began saying that they saw the lights actually
leave the foam behind. So before that point, the foam
could have just been something weird that that captain saw.
So there we have it for now, this series of
(26:39):
spooky lights. If we're going to use the technical term,
but how do we get from spooky lights to UFOs?
We'll explore that after a word from our sponsor, and
against all odds, we have returned how did this transform
(27:00):
or from spooky lights to genuine concerns about extraterrestrials being cited? Well,
according to a couple of different sources, this story did
not actually take off in the national international sphere until
decades later, until nineteen ninety three, when a ufologist named
Chris Stiles said that he witnessed the UFO around the
(27:22):
same time and place several weeks after the initial sighting.
He co wrote a book called Dark Object, the world's
only government documented UFO crash. In this book, Styles and
his co author Doug Ledger from earlier.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Oh THEO What was that book called the Meteor.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The Maritime UFO Files. Yes, So in this book Dark Object,
Styles and Ledger claimed that what people saw that night
in Shag Harbor was a spaceship, not just an unidentified
flying object, but an unidentified submerged object. For the USOS
(28:00):
is the my favorite. Yeah, you introduced me to that concept.
And they further trace the path of this object after
it submerges in the ocean. They say that after it
went underwater, it traveled about seventy clicks northeast to a
US Navy facility called the HMCS Shelburn at the time,
(28:23):
the HMCS Shelburn was a support compound for offshore sonar
array that was meant to detect submarines. It's part of
an anti submarine system, and this was also part of
a larger global network. Back to the book, the authors
claimed that this USO unidentified submerged object met up with
another ship underwater, they were monitored by the US Navy,
(28:47):
and then they were eventually launched into space. For the record,
as near as we can find, a Ledger and Styles
were the first people to propose this idea or deposit
this series of events, and we couldn't find what their
sources were for this claim.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But if you did have information about this, let's say
you got it from someone's last words on their deathbed,
someone's you know, no one's ever heard of this before,
but this happened, you would be the first person to
ever report that. The problem is, you know, why would
there be no why would there be no reporting of
(29:33):
that kind of incident, that kind of thing, unless it's
just completely redacted and held because it's you know, national
security kind of situation. So there's it's one of those
things we always talk about. We we'll get into a
little later but it's it's not provable. It's not provable
either way.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Right right, right. We know that there's enough evidence to
say that people definitely saw something. We know little else, Yep,
because even even the mundane explanations are not perfect one
to one fits, you know what I mean. So in
the in the case of the flare, if if it
(30:12):
were a distress flare, we would have probably found an
object right from which that was shot. If it were
a prank by someone who had had too much to
drink or was just out living their best life on
the coast.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Didn't even have to be a prank, just somebody messing around.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Then, you know, how do we explain the fact that
no one came forward. We would just say that they
were so terrified that they decided to take the secret
to their grave, because I don't I don't know. I
don't think they would have gotten in serious trouble. But
maybe they freaked out because they saw all the all
the law enforcement and rescue responders out there.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Maybe they were like illegal lobster poachers and they didn't
want anyone.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
To know, yeah, doing illegal flare lobstering.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Well, yeah, the flaring for lobsters, you know, that's in
that old standby.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Flaring for Lobsters Sun new t shirt.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
So we've got these claims from these authors, and there
are more. There are more arguments or theories around, but
the claims of Styles and Ledger are probably the most
well known on that side of the fence. Let's go
to the official word because those of us who may say, well,
(31:31):
I'm more of a skeptically minded person and I'm convinced
this is a flare, we have weird news for you.
The government disagrees. The Canadian government was not convinced. On
October sixth, a couple of days after the incident, a
Colonel W. W. Turner issued a memo where he said, quote,
(31:51):
the Coordination Center conducted preliminary investigation and discounted the possibilities
that the sighting was produced by an aircraft, flares, floats,
or any other known objects, and he got that this
is weird. This is probably the strangest piece of trivia
I learned doing this. He got that from a telex,
(32:15):
an early kind of form of facts sent from a
Coastguard ship, and it was very shortened to the point,
you know, essentially it was like telegraph language where they said,
we search for this with nil results, we search for
this other thing with nil results. All that means is,
while they're not totally ruling it out, they're saying they
didn't find anything that supports any of those mundane explanations.
(32:39):
So even though they didn't find anything, they still didn't
feel that the normal explanations fully explained everything. And this
is this sounds sinister, right, it could be seen as
a very sinister thing. But we also have to remember
it's kind of predictable if it were a flair. They're
searching the ocean for a flare.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Well, you mean you can't just dive down there easily
with a snorkel and grab it.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
It's not like a video game. Oh, it's not like
a mission where you can snag some of the video game.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
And it's so true. You'd have to have such specialized
equipment to even get to the bottom of the ocean
there if you could, and then from that point you're
just gonna look for a flare that could have carried.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
You know, that's if it makes it to the bottom.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
If it is a flare.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
If it is a flare, what if it was.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Some you know, extraterrestrial species just probe. It's like small
little probe spherically shaped or something that's designed to go
down to the bottom of the ocean. Oh and then disappear, Yeah,
like burrow into the sand in the ground. Okay, Like
if that's what it was, you'll never find it.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
That's I mean, yeah, maybe that's true with the technology
they had at the time, right lightar. But now we
have lightar. Yeah, And I think some relatives of Jacques
Custeau actually traveled up a few years back to Shag
Harber to film a documentary about the Shag Harbor incident.
(34:13):
So they'll be bringing with them technology that did not
exist in the late nineteen sixties. They'll also be working
with one of the original members of the dive team
that explored the incident.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
When it occurred.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Cool, and this is where we're at now. This is
pretty interesting because there are there are people who are
convinced that this was an accident that got covered up,
whether mundane or military or somehow beyond this world in nature.
(34:46):
And then there are people who are convinced that this
is an easily explainable thing that people may not necessarily
want explained because you see today shag Harbor remains a
popular tourist that the nation for local UFO enthusiast. When
the weather's right, you can check out the UFO Gazebo
and picnic site and you can look out onto the
(35:09):
ocean to the spot where the object crashed.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
That's right. Did you say the name of it yet?
That place?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Oh? I just said the UFO Gazebo and Picnic.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Well, there's a it's specifically called and you can find
it on Google Maps, the Shag Harbor Incident Interpretive Center.
It's a yellow building. I think it's still yellow. You
can find it. There are phone numbers you can call
to reach them, a fax number, and even an email address.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Right. You can also when you visit, find articles, documentaries,
and memorabilia pertaining to the incident.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Exactly. Just something you should know if you are going
to go up there. This place, specifically the shag Harbor
UFO Center. It only operates from June fifteenth until September thirtieth,
so if you're planning to go go soon.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
You can also contact the Shag Harbor Incident which collects
and organizes information about this event. Neat bookending note here
They are headed by Lori Wickens One of the teenagers
who first cited the object. He also participated in the
Custeau documentary.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
He, by the way, is a ah.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So there's where we are Barring some new revelations or
deathbed confessions, we want to know what you think. We
do also want to point out that there is still
a little bit of a sketchy documentation on the side
of the Canadian government. Let's let them summarize it themselves.
(36:42):
Here's the conclusion from the Department of National Defense. The
crashing of the unidentified flying object and Deshaghaba is still
discussed today, with many articles appearing on the antidet. There's
no trace of THESEMP reports of the siding and the
files the Department of National Defense has identified decided as
unsolved and the only documentation that exists in the files
(37:04):
is a D and D memo.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
And we have that memo. If you want to hear it, well,
then here it is UFO report. Lower Wood Harbor, Nova Scotia.
An RCMP corporal and six other witnesses observed what they
believed to be an unidentified flying object off the southwest
coast of Nova Scotia, Canada, on the fourth of October
nineteen sixty seven. The object was described as approximately sixty
(37:29):
feet in length and was flying in an easterly direction
when first sighted. During their observation, the UFO descended rapidly
to the surface and made a bright splash as it
struck the water. For some time after the impact, a
single white light remained on the surface. The RCMP corporal
endeavored to reach the floating white object, but unfortunately, before
(37:49):
he could reach the location, the object sank. A search
of the area failed to produce any material evidence which
would assist in explaining or establishing the identity of the object.
An underwater search conducted by divers from the Department of
National Defense also failed to locate any tangible evidence which
could be used to arrive at an explainable conclusion. So
(38:11):
literally what you said, Ben, it's unexplainable and that's all
we got.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Right, So we can easily see why this is so
intriguing and remains so intriguing. Despite the fact that it
is one of the one of the better documented sightings
or incidents, there's a surprisingly sparse amount of paperwork regarding it,
(38:38):
and some of this came out only when the Canadian
government declassified pages and pages and pages of files on
unidentified flying objects reports. Now we do have one. We
do have one pretty I think, a pretty cool point
that we have to make every time we do a
(38:58):
UFO sighting up. So this is a UFO. Any unidentified
flying object is by virtue of being unidentified and in
the air and an object AUFO. That does not mean
it was from Alpha centaur I, or Mars or some
place in the darkness between the stars. It just means
(39:19):
that we have no real idea what it is. And
even if we as a species have some good guesses,
they are still only that they are only guesses until
some sort of hard proof exists. Also, on a personal note,
I love that the Department of National Defense is abbreviated
to D and D yes. And when I first read
the original summarization quote, I had this image in my
(39:43):
head that there was a file from a D and
D game.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Oh, it was just a game master.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
That the RCMP was playing like they were deep into it,
although I'm fairly certain D and D did not exist
in the nineteen sixties. Oh and that fact I forgot
to mention the telex I never followed up the weird
fact I learned about telex. Okay, So, telex or teleprinter
is the original form of data transmission and was developed
in World War Two, supposed to be reliably secure over
(40:12):
long distances, unlike now we have faxes, we have emails.
We have faxes still for some reason, right, But unlike
facts and email, telex has what's called full legal document
status in every country in the world. So if you're
send something on telex, it matters.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, well the facts. It's like, I don't know, I'm
going to need a cover sheet.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah right, So I thought that was weird because maybe
that's the reason why it was so popular.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
But do you remember sending cover sheets with fax machines?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Yeah? Yeah, I used to, Doe. Yeah, we had to.
It was very strange.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
We've been doing this a while, Ben.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
We have we can technically still fax things.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
We could if we want to.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Have you ever prank faxed people?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Oh no, I used to.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Prank fax people at our old office. What I don't know, Man.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Send something Marshall's way, not in a mean way.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Not in a mean way. I would fat things like
like attention for your eyes only. The transmission will begin
at you know, five fifteen or something. Tell no one
destroy this paper. It was brilliant facts an optometrist or something.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That is brilliant.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Can you get in trouble for that?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Probably?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Probably? I hope that statute of limitations on prank vaccine
is pretty low.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Somebody somewhere in an office is listening to this on
their break or like while they're waiting a dental aygenis waiting.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Or going use yet. But the I did fax people
at five point fifteen as well, you.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
See there you go, you know, just enough time to
get out the door with a little fun, little light step.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
One time. It was just like I tried to fact
I tried to fax a picture of Christopher walk In,
but you know, you mainly fax text through through facts machine,
So I don't know what they got, but but yeah,
that was my I feel better. I feel like I
have confessed my sins to you.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Oh well, hey, I love it and not just now
I want to do it. So, if you have ever
experienced an unidentified flying or sub merged object.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Well facts or facted anyone an unidentified facts object.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yes you can. You can reach out to us. We
would love to hear your stories. You can give us
a call. We are one eight three three s T
d W y t K leave a message detailing what
you've seen. You can, like one of our recent listeners
first called us and left a message or two, I believe,
(42:56):
and then sent us several videos like showing what she
experienced with some kind of object that she noticed.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That was fantastic. Yeah, thank you for doing that.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Yeah, thank you so much for sending that. You can
you can do that, or you can just leave us
a message telling us what happened one time or what
you've experienced. You can do all that stuff, or you
can reach out to us on Instagram where we are
a conspiracy stuff show, and Ben you are.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I am in a burst of creativity at Ben Bullen,
so you can follow me to see me get kicked
into and out of various countries on various misadventures perfection.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Is there an HSW involved or is it just no? Okay,
I'm Matt Frederick HSW. Something I don't know. Good luck,
you'll never find it. Aha. And then and we have
Embryonic Insider, which is and Paul is what is it?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Paul? Paul is Paul is at applebe revolutionary?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Oh yeah, Applebee's was it the Appleby's Revolution?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
It's either. I think Mission Control has several different Applebee's accounts, okay,
which I'm surprised that he finds time for all of them.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
You're just gonna have to search around and find it.
I can't remember, and it was a really complicated.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah, you have to earn that one. In the meantime,
while you're on the internet, if you want to check
out our favorite part of the show your fellow listeners,
hop on over to Here's where it gets Crazy, our
Facebook page where you can see, you know, you can
see a ton of different ideas, some pretty high tier memes.
(44:38):
But then one thing I think that a lot of
us enjoy about the page is some in depth conversation
about things.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Specifically about stuff we've covered on the show. Well, we'll
get into discussion about what something truly meant, or like
an extra piece of evidence that maybe we didn't see,
or something that it's really great. You should definitely go there, and.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
That's our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait
to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy to
find online.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Find this in the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where we exist
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Speaker 1 (45:20):
Leave a voicemail and if you have more to say,
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Speaker 2 (45:29):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow conspiracy realist. In nineteen sixty seven, the tiny fishing
community of shag of Harbor up in Canada, became ground
zero for one of the most infamous UFO sightings in
modern Western history.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And it was spooky season, y'all. It was October.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Oh, and here we are in spooky season now, so
kind of weirdly were weirdly appropriate?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Is it already spooky season?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, it's called summer ween. Yeah, it's always Halloween in America.
Let's a roll it. From UFOs to psychic powers and
government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can
turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want
you to know. A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt noel
Is on Adventures.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
They call me Ben. We were joined as always with
our super producer Paul Mission controlled decand most importantly, you
are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff.
They don't want you to know this. This is what
I'm pretty excited about, Matt. What about you?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, it's been a minute since we've really gotten our
unexplained phenomena I e UFOs Unidentified Flying Objects sometimes unidentified
submerged objects, any of those, We're We're into it.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And we had a lot of people, a lot of
our fellow listeners suggest this topic, so we picked one
one person that we wanted you to hear from directly.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Hey, boys, I'm a big fan of your show and
I really enjoy all the episodes you do. I just
had an idea for a great episode, and that's the
mystery of the Shag Harbor incident. That was a huge
UFO sighting seen by many many people, actually relatives of
(02:02):
personal friends of mine here in Eastern Canada. Happened on
the south shore of Nova Scotia back in the nineteen
sixties and not far from Oak Island, right, another awesome
place of mystery. So apparently there was a pretty substantial
RCMP investigation into that. And yeah, I think it would
make for a great episode.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, thank you anonymous caller from East Canada over there
in Nova Scotia or near Nova Scotia at least.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, thank you so much. These are two fantastic ideas
that have been on our mutual minds for some time.
Oak Island is a story all its own, and we've
done some videos on that before, right, Matt.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, we have. I cannot recall if we've actually made
a podcast episode, but we should if we haven't.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, maybe Buried Treasure episode or something tantalizing, tantalizing story
Shag Harbor however, Yeah, that's what we're going to look
at today. It has been quite a while, old friends,
since we did an episode on UFOs. I for one am.
You know, I'm still convinced that various governments are hiding
(03:11):
some sort of advanced technology or another. And you, both
of us, you especially Fox Moulder style, still want to believe.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Oh, very much true, especially with something like the incident
we're going to discuss today. Our caller said that, you know,
a bunch of people witnessed this thing, and it is
true that I would say dozens. I think dozens of
people did witness this at some point during the official incident.
(03:41):
You know, it's not a ton of people. It's not
like it was over a large city and a bunch
of you know, everyone had their cell phones or something.
We're talking nineteen sixty seven. But enough people saw it
that it wasn't just a trick of the light that
you know, a captain on a ship saw or you know,
maybe me it could be explained pretty easily.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Or something funky on the horizon seen by a pilot exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
There's there are more. There are more vantages to this
than a lot of UFO sightings.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
This is one of the most well documented UFO sightings
in modern history. To be honest, they call it Canada's Roswell,
and that's not an ironic name like Little John or something.
This really is one of the most historically significant, well
known and famous or infamous UFO sightings in Canadian history,
(04:36):
if not the most famous. So we received tons of
great episodes for specific UFO sightings. We get them a lot.
This one we were curious about because if you're not
from Canada and you don't spend much time thinking about UFOs,
you probably have not heard of shag Harper. A lot
of people who are ufologists in the United States may
(04:59):
not have heard of this. But here are the facts.
Shag Harbor is a tiny, tiny town, a village really,
and it is as as our callers said, on the
southern shore of Nova Scotia. The population is somewhere between
it's under five hundred people, it's four hundred, four and
and fifty people or so, and their big business is lobster,
(05:22):
which I love this because the lobster is amazing. But
here where we're based and landlocked Atlanta, Georgia, you get
what you pay for.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah. Yeah, And just so you have an idea of
where this is. If you do live in the United States,
as do most of you out there listening, we know
this if you are in Portland, Maine. So if you're
imagining Portland, Maine, way up there in the northeast section
of the United States, and you essentially go east. No,
(05:55):
it's not perfectly east because we live, you know, on
a globe. But if you east on a map and
you just travel that till you hit Nova Scotia, you
essentially hit Shag Harbor, just to know exactly where you are,
because Nova Scotia is essentially a peninsula that comes down.
It's close to an island, but that's a peninsula that
comes down off of Canada up on the top there.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
On the eastern side. Yeah. And this this fishing community, right,
most of their business in the fishing industry takes place
from November to May. That's going to be important for
the story as it unfolds. On a side note, I
just checked downstairs at one of the only places that
(06:40):
does sell lobster rolls. Yes, here in the area, twenty
four dollars.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
For one for like a small lobster.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Roll, right for just a regular lobster roll.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
And that's of course, to get that lobster to Atlanta
and then buy it in Pont City Market. Oh boy, now,
just saying it might be a little inflated, that's all.
That's all.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
One day, Matt. Maybe one day I'll treat myself to
a lops you know what. I might just at this point,
maybe I should just fly to Maine or Nova Scotia's.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, let's look at Dave's Lobster in Halifax. Let's see.
Let's see if they've got a menu.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I looked up some places in Shag Harbor there I
couldn't find. I couldn't get the website for Captain Wayne's
to work. But I'm interested. So if you're listening, you've
ever been to Captain Waynes in Shag Harbor, Let let
let me know what you think and let me know
what I should order when I go there, because after this,
(07:36):
after doing this research, I'm excited about taking a trip
there one day.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh I do. That would be wonderful. We should definitely
do that.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And while we're there, we can check out the Chapel
Hill Museum, Captain Wayne's, and some other restaurants, a few
tourism sites. But what sort of tourism sites, you may ask.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, you know a lot of people would probably go
out there for fishing or maybe to try and catch
their own lobster.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Dude, that would be so cool. Some people may visit
for the history of Chapel Hill is a historically significant site,
but many people visit for a different reason. They visit
Shag Harper, you see, because they are convinced that human
beings saw a UFO night, even a UFO an extra
(08:21):
terrestrial object in this town in the nineteen sixties. Here's
where it gets crazy. So let's get our let's get
our primary sources for this right, and we'll go with
the official story, and then we'll go with some speculation,
and then we'll go with some analysis.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
That sounds great.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
I feel like I'm over explaining it. That's very Alice
in Wonderland, where the Hatter says, start at the beginning,
go through the middle, and when you get to the end,
stop Now.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Signposts in my opinion are actually good, so let's keep
with them.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Okay. All right, Well we've made a promise now, Matt,
so we'll have to try to We'll have to try
to keep our stories straight, which is a problem in
the Shag Harbor tale as well. Our primary sources for
contemporary reports from the authorities and civilian witnesses come from
a paper call the Halifax Chronicle Herald, and here's most
(09:15):
of what we know. On Wednesday, October fourth, nineteen sixty seven,
at around eleven twenty pm, multiple witnesses claimed to see
the following.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Some reported a row of lights, row of lights on
a craft that was roughly sixty feet long. Now that's,
of course an approximation, but that was used several times
sixty feet long. And this row of lights on whatever
this thing was, the lights at least because a lot
of people couldn't at least several of the reports couldn't
(09:48):
see an object. They just saw the lights because of
the distance they were away. But the lights descended down
and there was some kind of noise that was emanating
from whatever this was that was. It was reported as
like a whistle, sometimes sometimes as a wooshing sound, and
it was almost like it was akin to, at least
(10:09):
some of them said, a bomb falling, or like in
a movie you would hear a bomb like beer exactly.
And it was so it was descending down right, and
then it hovered over the water out there at Shag
Harbor or right outside of Shag Harbor, essentially hovered over
the water just momentarily, and then it began to submerge.
(10:30):
And there was some really weird details we're going to
get into here with how the light functioned or didn't function.
It was very strange, but let's continue along.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Sure, Yes, yes, the object or the lights whatever, this
was submerged into the Atlantic Ocean, a famously large body
of water.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Which, by the way, if you are in Shag Harbor
to your east, nothing but water, that's it, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And emergency crews primarily the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or
the RCMP, as our caller mentioned earlier, they arrived within
fifteen minutes or so, so they're not fooling around. They
reasonably assumed this was a plane crash at first, so
lives could be on the line and the clock is ticking.
(11:21):
The Coastguard later joins in the search. Initially civilians and
authorities the way the story goes, noted a thick yellow foam,
or specifically, a glittery yellow foam. A local fishing boat
captain said this was about eighty feet wide the swath
(11:41):
of foam, and it's important to remember that he made
this observation in the darkness, based on his unaided eyesight.
According to the records, no one obtained a sample of
this strange substance, so even today we don't know what
it is. We can guess, but we don't know for
about three When the authorities search the bottom of the
(12:02):
harbor and they have no luck. They find nothing, no bodies,
no debris bupkiss. They also find when they contact Halifax
and other regional authorities, that no planes were reported missing,
And with that, the incident seemed set to be a
flash in the pan headline. Local radio reported it, The
(12:26):
Chronicle Herald reported it, but it seemed like an unusual
sighting that, like thousands and thousands of others, would eventually
end up being little more than a footnote in regional
history books. See this is the important thing. So this
happens in nineteen sixty seven, right, it's twenty nineteen now,
and this is a famous, world famous UFO incident. But
(12:51):
in let's say nineteen seventy seven, this was not the case.
Something happened between sixty seven and today day that changed
the way the public thinks about this specific night in October.
And you know, I know I'm setting us up here,
but we will tell you what that moment is. We
(13:12):
found it. But for now, let's look at the facts.
That's the gist of the story. And there are a
couple of problems with it, a couple of contradictions. If
we rely just on the articles from the Chronicle Herald,
what do we find.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
We'll tell you right after a quick word from our sponsor. Well,
if we do rely on those Chronicle Herald articles and
we just say that that's all we're gonna use, we're
gonna find a couple of things. First, is that four
teenagers said, and this is a claim, they saw four lights,
(13:49):
not three. They said that the lights were yellow or white.
So we already hear like even amongst a group of
people who were from the same vantage, saying they saw
us maybe slightly different things. They confirmed the lights were
descending coming down from the sky. One of the four
kids said the lights appeared to turn off and on
or blink in some way. Another kid said that he
(14:11):
heard the aforementioned whistling noise the some sound. So again
one of the four witnesses said, I heard it emitting
some kind of sound, But the other kids, the other
three didn't mention anything about a sound until this other
person mentioned it. Who knows if that's then some kind
of confirmation bias or wanting to be correct if you
missed it. Another teen said he heard a loud noise
(14:34):
when the lights appeared to hit the water, So some
kind of boom or splash. That's where you kind of
get that end of the bomb sound. And you know,
if it was a massive object and it impacted the water,
there would be some kind of sound. Sure, it just
depends on how far away you are if you could
hear it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Essentially, if it were indeed, a craft sixty feet long,
no matter how light it was, would make an audible noise.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
One hundred present. If a UFO falls in the water
and no one's around, does it make a sound. Yes.
Another thing you're gonna find is that a whole separate
group of people in this case, a couple other teenagers
said they saw three red orange lights this time, so
rather than white, yellow, white, or yellow descending again from
the sky forming a line at a roughly forty five
(15:20):
degree angle. Now, these two, this pair, they were actually
driving when they when they saw this, and they didn't
stop the vehicle, and the lights just kind of passed
out of you as they're driving around, and you know
you're probably somewhere near the coast over there, and they're
going to be gone even if they're descending down. So
(15:41):
we at least have two vantage points specifically from the
Chronicle Herald, specifically teenagers.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And this isn't the end of our witness list. This
is just where the witness list gets a little bit
at times murky. But picture you're self looking at an
aerial map of Shag.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Harbor and you can pull one up right now.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
You could pull one up right now now, zoom out
and taken a bigger region into your aerial view, and
there's Halifax. Okay. So local radio stations reported a glowing
object had been seen by a bunch of people who
called their newsrooms and they reported witnessing strange glowing objects
(16:27):
flying around Halifax at around ten pm.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So what is our established timeline at this point when
did the impacts at the water Do we have we
established that yet?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It would be either it would be before midnight, yes,
but after eleven twenty exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Okay, So we couped like an hour and change beforehand,
all over Halifax, and I've been as you said, like
not a significantly significant distance way, but far enough away
an hour before that you see lights, glowing objects, got.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It right, Yeah, And it would be helpful for us
to say that distance, right, it's about from Halifax, Nova
Scotia to shag Harbor, Nova Scotia. You're looking at about
two hundred and fifty five kilometers or one hundred and
fifty eight miles.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So that's pretty far.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That's according to distance between cities dot net.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Oh that's great. That's just their thing, unless it's a
driving distance of some sort.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Right, right, So the radio stations are reporting this, and
they're not the only ones. Air Canada flight three h
five noted something strange on the left side of their
plane at seven fifteen PM, and they called it a
brilliantly lit rectangular object with a string of smaller lights
(17:46):
trailing the object. At seven nineteen the pilots noticed a
sizeable silent explosion near the object, and two minutes later,
another explosion occurred and it faded to a blue cloud
around this thing, whatever it was they saw.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So they oh, got when when I read that and
I read that, all I hear is force field of
some sort, I got hit or like reacted.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we know they saw something unusual,
but we don't know necessarily whether that is tied to
this stuff that happens hours later. This is where we
want to introduce our first book, the one that people
would consider conspiratorial. Doug Ledger wrote a book called Maritime
(18:30):
UFO Files, and in this book he claims that additional
witnesses exist. Daryl Dorry and his sister Annette and Daryl's
mother were sitting on their front porch when they noticed
a large object maneuvering above the southwestern horizon. The next day,
Daryl writes a letter to the Royal Canadian Air Force
(18:53):
Greenwood based commander, asking what was flying over the water
that evening because I've never seen anything like it?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And yes, so we've got, you know, two people who
saw something and they reported it, which is you know,
always good, especially reporting it to a commander of a
base with the Royal Canadian Air Force. That's pretty cool
and it's good to know. But then you turn to
our next witness, Captain Leo Howard Mercy. Now, this gentleman,
(19:24):
you can actually find. You can find a memo because
he contacted the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and a report
was taken on the seventh of October nineteen sixty seven
and as pertaining to the fourth but an actual you
can find a written report. And so you know, we're
saying that this is taken from maritime UFO files by
(19:47):
Doug Ledger, and it's true. But a lot of times
when you're, you know, reading a book like that, it's
hard to know whether the sources are legit or real.
Right in this case, they most certainly are. So Howard Mercy,
Captain Leo Howard Mercy, he was looking at his radar.
He's standing on his ship and he's looking at four
(20:07):
blips on his deca radar. They seem to be stationary.
But then you know, he says, well, I want to
see I want to see what this is. He looks
out and he sees about twenty eight kilometers from where
he is on his ship, he could see four bright
lights in again, kind of a formation, like a rectangular
formation roughly is what he was estimating. And then the
(20:31):
entire crew of I think it was twenty, yeah, nearly
twenty fishermen who were with him on his ship, they
went out, they got on the deck, they watched this thing,
this object, whatever it is, this group of objects, they
watched it, and he was in the northeastern sky. And
then this guy Mercy radioed the Rescue Coordination Center at
the Harbor Master in Halifax and he asked for, you know,
(20:54):
something like, hey, guys, what's going on over there? And
it was one of those things where he reported knowing
that the Air Force conducted, you know, testing out in
that area where he was looking. So we didn't necessarily
think it was anything too off at least according to
the official memo and report, but he did think it
was odd, so you know, he asked for an ex explanation.
(21:17):
He filed this report with the RCMP and that was
about it. At the end of the report, it is
noted that he is considered to be a reliable type
individual that's a quote and bears a good reputation in
his community. So that's something that that was noted by
the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So, which is just them saying that he's considered a
credible reporter. He's not pranking people, he's not a crazy,
you know, paint huffing maniac who calls every weekend.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yes, someone reliable saw this, whatever it was.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
So so we have these additional witnesses, and there are
a few more. But in cases like this, where there's
something up in the sky that's not too far into
the wee hours of the night, we know that there
are almost certainly a bunch of witnesses who saw something
and did not go to the trouble of writing to
the Air Force station. Yes, because that's a lot of work.
(22:16):
So let's go their initial ideas initially. Initially, oddly enough,
most people are not thinking in terms of anything other
than mundane activities, tragedies, meteorological phenomenon. So they first assume, well,
(22:37):
maybe this is a boat, got to search that. Maybe
this is a plane, got to search for that.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, in the plane and or boat makes a lot
of sense depending on the color of the lights that
they saw, and if they were flashing or at least
on and off in some kind of repeating.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Pattern, right right, that could be distressing.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And we did notice that in a few of the witnesses.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
True, that is true. They say, well, you know what
else could fit this story? A distress flare? This is
a for people who are convinced that this was a craft.
This feels like a stick in the mud answer. But
there are some pretty compelling similarities. So, first off, flare
(23:19):
guns are standard on boats, the standard ond boats. If
there's a problem, you use a flare gun. After you
fire a flare. Have you ever fired a flare?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I have?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
They're so cool. Yeah, after you fire a flare, then
you know, there's a little bit of a delay before
it burns. It might it varies, but it might start
burning almost immediately after you shoot it off, or it
might hit its arc and then start going downward and
then ignite. But this idea with a flare gun inspired
(23:53):
some of the more skeptical thinkers to say things like
like Brian Dunning said, ssh, is it outside the realm
of possibility that someone was playing around with a flare
gun at eleven at night after killing part of a
six pack or a whole six pack or a whole
six pack. You know what I mean, because if you've
(24:14):
been drinking. Maybe shooting off a flare gun sounds like
a cool thing to do, and yes.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
And just to put it out there the way. One
of the big parts of this story that is so
fascinating is how the light landed on top of the
water for a little bit and then sunk into the.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Water, right and one of the witnesses, I think in
that group of four teenagers, one of the witnesses said
a single light remained for a moment before it submerged
or before it was put out by the water. So
later on, I mean months or years later on, people
proposed that the sighting could fit the description of something
(24:54):
like a falling satellite, which is completely a possibility nineteen
sixty seven and completely a possibility that a satellite may
have fallen.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Especially if pieces of it are breaking apart as it's
falling and you have multiple lights where fires are burning
up choces of it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely as it enters the atmosphere. And then
it could also be a meteoric fireball, so like us
falling satellite, meteors frequently break up during their fall and
that could also look like a line of lights and
depending on the angle of the viewer or your perspective
as you're watching this, it could seem to be moving
(25:33):
much more slowly than it actually is at kind of
a low angle. So the big question immediately here is
did the story change. Here's the thing. After these reports
were printed, primarily in the Chronicle Herald but also in
other papers of the time, people began to connect the
(25:54):
dots and build what could have been interpreted as separate
sightings a single cohesive narrative. That is, there's nothing wrong
with that. That's what people do. We find patterns, we
connect dots. That's how our species got to where it is.
So the crazy thing that we discovered here is that
the foam and the lights were not initially connected. No
(26:19):
one initially reported seeing the objects or lights leaving the foam,
but people began saying that they saw the lights actually
leave the foam behind. So before that point, the foam
could have just been something weird that that captain saw.
So there we have it for now, this series of
(26:39):
spooky lights. If we're going to use the technical term,
but how do we get from spooky lights to UFOs?
We'll explore that after a word from our sponsor, and
against all odds, we have returned how did this transform
(27:00):
or from spooky lights to genuine concerns about extraterrestrials being cited? Well,
according to a couple of different sources, this story did
not actually take off in the national international sphere until
decades later, until nineteen ninety three, when a ufologist named
Chris Stiles said that he witnessed the UFO around the
(27:22):
same time and place several weeks after the initial sighting.
He co wrote a book called Dark Object, the world's
only government documented UFO crash. In this book, Styles and
his co author Doug Ledger from earlier.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Oh THEO What was that book called the Meteor.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The Maritime UFO Files. Yes, So in this book Dark Object,
Styles and Ledger claimed that what people saw that night
in Shag Harbor was a spaceship, not just an unidentified
flying object, but an unidentified submerged object. For the USOS
(28:00):
is the my favorite. Yeah, you introduced me to that concept.
And they further trace the path of this object after
it submerges in the ocean. They say that after it
went underwater, it traveled about seventy clicks northeast to a
US Navy facility called the HMCS Shelburn at the time,
(28:23):
the HMCS Shelburn was a support compound for offshore sonar
array that was meant to detect submarines. It's part of
an anti submarine system, and this was also part of
a larger global network. Back to the book, the authors
claimed that this USO unidentified submerged object met up with
another ship underwater, they were monitored by the US Navy,
(28:47):
and then they were eventually launched into space. For the record,
as near as we can find, a Ledger and Styles
were the first people to propose this idea or deposit
this series of events, and we couldn't find what their
sources were for this claim.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But if you did have information about this, let's say
you got it from someone's last words on their deathbed,
someone's you know, no one's ever heard of this before,
but this happened, you would be the first person to
ever report that. The problem is, you know, why would
there be no why would there be no reporting of
(29:33):
that kind of incident, that kind of thing, unless it's
just completely redacted and held because it's you know, national
security kind of situation. So there's it's one of those
things we always talk about. We we'll get into a
little later but it's it's not provable. It's not provable
either way.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Right right, right. We know that there's enough evidence to
say that people definitely saw something. We know little else, Yep,
because even even the mundane explanations are not perfect one
to one fits, you know what I mean. So in
the in the case of the flare, if if it
(30:12):
were a distress flare, we would have probably found an
object right from which that was shot. If it were
a prank by someone who had had too much to
drink or was just out living their best life on
the coast.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Didn't even have to be a prank, just somebody messing around.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Then, you know, how do we explain the fact that
no one came forward. We would just say that they
were so terrified that they decided to take the secret
to their grave, because I don't I don't know. I
don't think they would have gotten in serious trouble. But
maybe they freaked out because they saw all the all
the law enforcement and rescue responders out there.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Maybe they were like illegal lobster poachers and they didn't
want anyone.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
To know, yeah, doing illegal flare lobstering.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Well, yeah, the flaring for lobsters, you know, that's in
that old standby.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Flaring for Lobsters Sun new t shirt.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
So we've got these claims from these authors, and there
are more. There are more arguments or theories around, but
the claims of Styles and Ledger are probably the most
well known on that side of the fence. Let's go
to the official word because those of us who may say, well,
(31:31):
I'm more of a skeptically minded person and I'm convinced
this is a flare, we have weird news for you.
The government disagrees. The Canadian government was not convinced. On
October sixth, a couple of days after the incident, a
Colonel W. W. Turner issued a memo where he said, quote,
(31:51):
the Coordination Center conducted preliminary investigation and discounted the possibilities
that the sighting was produced by an aircraft, flares, floats,
or any other known objects, and he got that this
is weird. This is probably the strangest piece of trivia
I learned doing this. He got that from a telex,
(32:15):
an early kind of form of facts sent from a
Coastguard ship, and it was very shortened to the point,
you know, essentially it was like telegraph language where they said,
we search for this with nil results, we search for
this other thing with nil results. All that means is,
while they're not totally ruling it out, they're saying they
didn't find anything that supports any of those mundane explanations.
(32:39):
So even though they didn't find anything, they still didn't
feel that the normal explanations fully explained everything. And this
is this sounds sinister, right, it could be seen as
a very sinister thing. But we also have to remember
it's kind of predictable if it were a flair. They're
searching the ocean for a flare.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Well, you mean you can't just dive down there easily
with a snorkel and grab it.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
It's not like a video game. Oh, it's not like
a mission where you can snag some of the video game.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
And it's so true. You'd have to have such specialized
equipment to even get to the bottom of the ocean
there if you could, and then from that point you're
just gonna look for a flare that could have carried.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
You know, that's if it makes it to the bottom.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
If it is a flare.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
If it is a flare, what if it was.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Some you know, extraterrestrial species just probe. It's like small
little probe spherically shaped or something that's designed to go
down to the bottom of the ocean. Oh and then disappear, Yeah,
like burrow into the sand in the ground. Okay, Like
if that's what it was, you'll never find it.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
That's I mean, yeah, maybe that's true with the technology
they had at the time, right lightar. But now we
have lightar. Yeah, And I think some relatives of Jacques
Custeau actually traveled up a few years back to Shag
Harber to film a documentary about the Shag Harbor incident.
(34:13):
So they'll be bringing with them technology that did not
exist in the late nineteen sixties. They'll also be working
with one of the original members of the dive team
that explored the incident.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
When it occurred.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Cool, and this is where we're at now. This is
pretty interesting because there are there are people who are
convinced that this was an accident that got covered up,
whether mundane or military or somehow beyond this world in nature.
(34:46):
And then there are people who are convinced that this
is an easily explainable thing that people may not necessarily
want explained because you see today shag Harbor remains a
popular tourist that the nation for local UFO enthusiast. When
the weather's right, you can check out the UFO Gazebo
and picnic site and you can look out onto the
(35:09):
ocean to the spot where the object crashed.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
That's right. Did you say the name of it yet?
That place?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Oh? I just said the UFO Gazebo and Picnic.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Well, there's a it's specifically called and you can find
it on Google Maps, the Shag Harbor Incident Interpretive Center.
It's a yellow building. I think it's still yellow. You
can find it. There are phone numbers you can call
to reach them, a fax number, and even an email address.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Right. You can also when you visit, find articles, documentaries,
and memorabilia pertaining to the incident.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Exactly. Just something you should know if you are going
to go up there. This place, specifically the shag Harbor
UFO Center. It only operates from June fifteenth until September thirtieth,
so if you're planning to go go soon.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
You can also contact the Shag Harbor Incident which collects
and organizes information about this event. Neat bookending note here
They are headed by Lori Wickens One of the teenagers
who first cited the object. He also participated in the
Custeau documentary.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
He, by the way, is a ah.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So there's where we are Barring some new revelations or
deathbed confessions, we want to know what you think. We
do also want to point out that there is still
a little bit of a sketchy documentation on the side
of the Canadian government. Let's let them summarize it themselves.
(36:42):
Here's the conclusion from the Department of National Defense. The
crashing of the unidentified flying object and Deshaghaba is still
discussed today, with many articles appearing on the antidet. There's
no trace of THESEMP reports of the siding and the
files the Department of National Defense has identified decided as
unsolved and the only documentation that exists in the files
(37:04):
is a D and D memo.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
And we have that memo. If you want to hear it, well,
then here it is UFO report. Lower Wood Harbor, Nova Scotia.
An RCMP corporal and six other witnesses observed what they
believed to be an unidentified flying object off the southwest
coast of Nova Scotia, Canada, on the fourth of October
nineteen sixty seven. The object was described as approximately sixty
(37:29):
feet in length and was flying in an easterly direction
when first sighted. During their observation, the UFO descended rapidly
to the surface and made a bright splash as it
struck the water. For some time after the impact, a
single white light remained on the surface. The RCMP corporal
endeavored to reach the floating white object, but unfortunately, before
(37:49):
he could reach the location, the object sank. A search
of the area failed to produce any material evidence which
would assist in explaining or establishing the identity of the object.
An underwater search conducted by divers from the Department of
National Defense also failed to locate any tangible evidence which
could be used to arrive at an explainable conclusion. So
(38:11):
literally what you said, Ben, it's unexplainable and that's all
we got.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Right, So we can easily see why this is so
intriguing and remains so intriguing. Despite the fact that it
is one of the one of the better documented sightings
or incidents, there's a surprisingly sparse amount of paperwork regarding it,
(38:38):
and some of this came out only when the Canadian
government declassified pages and pages and pages of files on
unidentified flying objects reports. Now we do have one. We
do have one pretty I think, a pretty cool point
that we have to make every time we do a
(38:58):
UFO sighting up. So this is a UFO. Any unidentified
flying object is by virtue of being unidentified and in
the air and an object AUFO. That does not mean
it was from Alpha centaur I, or Mars or some
place in the darkness between the stars. It just means
(39:19):
that we have no real idea what it is. And
even if we as a species have some good guesses,
they are still only that they are only guesses until
some sort of hard proof exists. Also, on a personal note,
I love that the Department of National Defense is abbreviated
to D and D yes. And when I first read
the original summarization quote, I had this image in my
(39:43):
head that there was a file from a D and
D game.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Oh, it was just a game master.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
That the RCMP was playing like they were deep into it,
although I'm fairly certain D and D did not exist
in the nineteen sixties. Oh and that fact I forgot
to mention the telex I never followed up the weird
fact I learned about telex. Okay, So, telex or teleprinter
is the original form of data transmission and was developed
in World War Two, supposed to be reliably secure over
(40:12):
long distances, unlike now we have faxes, we have emails.
We have faxes still for some reason, right, But unlike
facts and email, telex has what's called full legal document
status in every country in the world. So if you're
send something on telex, it matters.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, well the facts. It's like, I don't know, I'm
going to need a cover sheet.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah right, So I thought that was weird because maybe
that's the reason why it was so popular.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
But do you remember sending cover sheets with fax machines?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Yeah? Yeah, I used to, Doe. Yeah, we had to.
It was very strange.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
We've been doing this a while, Ben.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
We have we can technically still fax things.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
We could if we want to.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Have you ever prank faxed people?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Oh no, I used to.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Prank fax people at our old office. What I don't know, Man.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Send something Marshall's way, not in a mean way.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Not in a mean way. I would fat things like
like attention for your eyes only. The transmission will begin
at you know, five fifteen or something. Tell no one
destroy this paper. It was brilliant facts an optometrist or something.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That is brilliant.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Can you get in trouble for that?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Probably?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Probably? I hope that statute of limitations on prank vaccine
is pretty low.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Somebody somewhere in an office is listening to this on
their break or like while they're waiting a dental aygenis waiting.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Or going use yet. But the I did fax people
at five point fifteen as well, you.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
See there you go, you know, just enough time to
get out the door with a little fun, little light step.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
One time. It was just like I tried to fact
I tried to fax a picture of Christopher walk In,
but you know, you mainly fax text through through facts machine,
So I don't know what they got, but but yeah,
that was my I feel better. I feel like I
have confessed my sins to you.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Oh well, hey, I love it and not just now
I want to do it. So, if you have ever
experienced an unidentified flying or sub merged object.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Well facts or facted anyone an unidentified facts object.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yes you can. You can reach out to us. We
would love to hear your stories. You can give us
a call. We are one eight three three s T
d W y t K leave a message detailing what
you've seen. You can, like one of our recent listeners
first called us and left a message or two, I believe,
(42:56):
and then sent us several videos like showing what she
experienced with some kind of object that she noticed.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That was fantastic. Yeah, thank you for doing that.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Yeah, thank you so much for sending that. You can
you can do that, or you can just leave us
a message telling us what happened one time or what
you've experienced. You can do all that stuff, or you
can reach out to us on Instagram where we are
a conspiracy stuff show, and Ben you are.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I am in a burst of creativity at Ben Bullen,
so you can follow me to see me get kicked
into and out of various countries on various misadventures perfection.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Is there an HSW involved or is it just no? Okay,
I'm Matt Frederick HSW. Something I don't know. Good luck,
you'll never find it. Aha. And then and we have
Embryonic Insider, which is and Paul is what is it?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Paul? Paul is Paul is at applebe revolutionary?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Oh yeah, Applebee's was it the Appleby's Revolution?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
It's either. I think Mission Control has several different Applebee's accounts, okay,
which I'm surprised that he finds time for all of them.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
You're just gonna have to search around and find it.
I can't remember, and it was a really complicated.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah, you have to earn that one. In the meantime,
while you're on the internet, if you want to check
out our favorite part of the show your fellow listeners,
hop on over to Here's where it gets Crazy, our
Facebook page where you can see, you know, you can
see a ton of different ideas, some pretty high tier memes.
(44:38):
But then one thing I think that a lot of
us enjoy about the page is some in depth conversation
about things.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Specifically about stuff we've covered on the show. Well, we'll
get into discussion about what something truly meant, or like
an extra piece of evidence that maybe we didn't see,
or something that it's really great. You should definitely go there, and.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
That's our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait
to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy to
find online.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Find this in the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where we exist
on Facebook, X and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok. We're
conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Call our number. It's one eight three three st d WYTK.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Leave a voicemail and if you have more to say,
we can't wait to hear from you at our good
old fashioned email address where we are conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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