August 23, 2024 • 57 mins
Earlier, the guys explored the fact, fiction and speculation surrounding MKULTRA programs, during which the Central Intelligence Agency financed and directed multiple illegal experiments on US citizens. The program was officially disbanded before it became public knowledge, but thousands of people aren't buying the official story -- instead, they say, insidious operations continued throughout the country. Where do these claims come from? Is there any proof?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow conspiracy realists. Thank you for joining us this evening.
We sure hope you liked our classic episode on mk
Ultra one oh one, because guess what, we're back with
MK Ultra two oh one.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, and the big question here is, Okay, we know
what was happening or release allegedly was happening during MK Ultra,
what was allowed to be released?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Did it stop?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
And what about all the other stuff that remains unknown
about MK Ultra today because there's a lot. There's so much.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
There's so much, and we're about to talk about it. Here.
We go.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
My name is Matt, my name is Noman.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
They call me Ben. We are joined with our super
producer Paul. Mission control decands. Most importantly, you are you,
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. This is in some ways a
sequel episode. It's a follow up to our previous episode
MK Ultra one oh one, in which we described exactly
(01:24):
what mk ultra is equally is important. We describe what
it is not and how the public learned about it today. However,
we are looking beyond that twisted origin story. We're going
off the charted proven paths. We're going across the edges
of the map. We're exploring the conspiracies and allegations related
(01:46):
to mk Ultra in the modern day. Listeners, this episode
contains content that may be disturbing to some of us
in the audience, and that means you can turn back
now or walk with us just a bit further away
from the lights.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Oh. I like that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That's a twist on it, and I really like that.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
It's true. As you know, Matt, this is very much
true in this episode. Well, let's I mean, let's let's
start off with something easy, something simple. What what is
m k Ultra For anyone who said, I see M
k Eltra one oh one in that podcast feed, but
forget that, I want two oh one?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well one two?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Okay, Well, I think two one is the right way
to go.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I think that's the way Georgia State would would do it.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So then that's my that's my favorite Alma Mo. Yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
The first thing you have to do is not think
about mk Ultra as one thing. It is not one thing.
It is a series of things, of projects, of experimentations,
of different experiments, of different groups of people who are
who were not necessarily working together. A lot of times
the aims were very similar, but you know, you have
different stuffy groups essentially, and it was all about, really,
(03:03):
at the heart of it, trying to find ways to
influence human beings, influence their perception, their behavior, or even
get them to do some or take some action that
you want them to take. And from all the official
accounts of the program really didn't work out that great.
They found some interesting things that could occur with drugs,
(03:24):
with especially how drugs interact with each other. Sometimes if
you get a really psychedelic trip and then influence somebody's
mind down the road, or if you can keep someone
within a psychedelic trip for long enough. Interesting things there.
But here's the deal, most everything didn't work the way
(03:44):
they wanted it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
To, right.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
It turns out that the human brain was too complex
for the sort of technology and tactics that Uncle Sam
was applying in this case. They were famously inspired to
pursue this line of research due to fears that the
Soviet Union and the government of China were pursuing things
(04:09):
and already had a jump in this sort of behavioral modification,
primarily when they saw a cardinal confess to cavalcadive crimes
that he clearly did not do back in the fifties,
I believe, and what they thought was happening was not
the case in that scenario. What they thought was happening
(04:30):
was that this guy had been brainwashed completely and totally
and believed these demonstrably false things. But it turns out
that the only thing that really happened was Communist forces
and security services just beat the ever loving snot out
of this guy repeatedly and then, you know, psychologically abused him.
(04:51):
And he later in life said that he said there
was no spooky, spooky psychotronic stuff going on. But we
do know that, as you said, Matt, some of these
programs had limited success. They learned new things that would
be useful later. From all official accounts, there are no
(05:12):
Manchurian candidates, despite what Sir Hans Sirhan has claimed, and
he is alive and he is in jail. He maintains
that he was brainwashed.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, he keeps trying. He kept trying. I think it's
over right, think, I don't know if he can go
for parole over parole again, it might be he might
be done. Maybe that's not true. That's what I feel like.
I remember hearing let's put it in there anyway, and
somebody correct me.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So now it seems like if we if that's the
only information you have about m k Ultra, now you're
in a state where it seems as if this is
an open and shut horrific historical events. But we're gonna
shymel on it just a little bit because the problem
with MK Ultra is this. The CIA purged everything they
(06:04):
could internally find related to MK Ultra back in nineteen
seventy three under Director Helms.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
When you say purged, and what are you talking about here, and.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
We're talking about physically burning paperwork? This this only compounded
the original problem, which was that they were not keeping
much paperwork to begin with. They didn't want the trail.
They wanted the minimum amount of stuff they needed to
have in order to keep their ducks in a row,
so they purged everything in seventy three. The public only
(06:35):
found hard proof of the operation when a Freedom of
Information Act request turned up two thousand documents that had
been misfiled, two thousand documents that were supposed to have
also been absolutely utterly destroyed. So this means that in
twenty nineteen, and probably in twenty twenty, and probably in
thirty nineteen, if people still care about it, we will
(06:56):
not know the full extent of what the CIA was
up to. We don't know all the experiments they conducted.
We have some hints, but it's possible that we never
will learn. As we noted previously, we have officially entered
the realm of deathbed confessions. What do we mean by this?
We mean that the only way the public will learn
more about this program will be if someone who was
(07:20):
working with it firsthand has a change of heart and
confesses or provides new information because they're you know, that's
how deathbed confession works. You're about to go out. You
want to meet the afterlife if such exists with a
clean conscience.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
And that is if that person even really truly understands
what they were doing or experimenting on, if they were
not just a tiny piece of a larger puzzle that
was the experiment right, which is highly possible. That kind
of plausible deniability is built into a lot of these experiments.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
The thing about a deathbed confession too, is like, it's
what better moment is there to be able to drop
a truth bomb where you don't have to be around
to deal with the aftermath or the fallout the consequences
directed at you, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Unless you have kids. Wow, that's true and grandkids, that's
fair true.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It's also it's also strangely common for people to make
fake deathbed confessions. Sometimes that can be due to a
deteriorating mental state and someone really believes that they're Jack
the Ripper and you're like, oh, man, uncle Bill, you
were born in nineteen seventy three. The math doesn't check out,
(08:33):
and they're like, no, it was me. It's my dying
wish that you tell the world the truth and you
just have to hold their hand.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That went dark. So at this point, as twenty nineteen,
as we record this, there has not been any large
scale revelation related to m k Ultra since those investigations
back in the nineteen seventies when the senators famously held
up a heart attack gun in the halls of Congress
(09:02):
and you can see this clip online. Folks. It's it's
somewhat distressing the gun itself. I don't know if we
talked about this in a pre Did we talk about
this in a previous episode?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
We did?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I believe we've brought I think we brought this up
when we went over the control group where we Brentwood
and we talked about some of this stuff. Yeah, and
then before that too with a DARPA yes.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, and assassination attempts. So it's a pretty neat idea.
It's a gun that fires frozen darts of poison and
they're so small that they can go through your clothing
without leaving a mark. And if it works, if they
successfully get the shot off, the corpse will look as
(09:44):
if it died from a heart attack. Clever stuff, camp
mall piercing. Yeah. I can't buy it in Walmart.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, and don't even if it was available, Do not
buy that.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Don't. For anyone who is listening and not in the
United States, one thing that would probably baffle you, or
maybe not, is that Walmart sells guns, which is, you know,
that's what we all accept as normal here. But if
you're from Sweden or something and you walk into a supermarket,
wouldn't you be surprised?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Yeah? Probably?
Speaker 5 (10:15):
You know, Dick's Sporting Goods is actually phasing out the
sale of guns.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I think largely.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Because I mean, I'm sure there was some political reasons
for doing it, but I think from what I heard,
it was becoming less and less profitable.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, and for a big box store like that, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Usually you would go to a specialty store to buy
guns or a gun show, righteah.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And they're also most of them long rifles of some sort,
that's right, like a shotgun or a hunting rising. Not
quite as effective unless you're sniping.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
And no one sells the heart attack gun that we
know of. So all this secrecy has led to an
interesting situation. The strange and strangely incomplete story of m.
K Oultra has become enshrined in conspiracy folklore. It has
been associated with multitudes of other theories, and typically the
(11:10):
gist of those theories will go the US public learned
about mk Ultra. That is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
There's much much more beneath the surface, and if you
buy my book you will learn it, which sounds a
little bit cynical, but that is honestly the way it goes.
And it's all based on a very valid and troubling question.
(11:33):
What else went on from the nineteen fifties through the
nineteen seventies. Furthermore, what if anything happened afterward?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And we're going to delve into that right after a
quick word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Here's where it gets crazy, more or less. Immediately after
the reveal of mk Ultra, people in the United States
and abroad began raising allegations of continuing related programs, and
this quickly, quickly, quickly got very out there in terms
of the claims. The most infamous alleged project related to
(12:15):
mk Ultra is something called Project Monarch.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yes, and this is this is one of the one
of the more out there things I would say that
we're going to discuss today. There are some weird things
we're going to discuss today, but this is one of
the feels like it's out there because, oh, here's a
little spoiler alert. It involves demons, it involves rituals, the
(12:41):
Kabbala and mysticisms, some of our favorite things, multiple personalities
and or demonic possession. So let's get into it.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
Yeah, all of that though within what's described as a
systematic framework. So this is like some serious like X
files type stuff, and it involved some things, some rituals
that could be described as satanic in nature, usually involving
some form of cannibalism, and performed with the intent of
(13:14):
attaching a demon or you know, a pantheon, like a
group of demons, and in order to kind of create
alternate versions of individuals in the same way that you
might through therapy create an alternate version of a self
that didn't experience the trauma that caused you to have
(13:35):
you know, psychological problems.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Right, this, this idea of intentionally creating alters or alternate
personalities isn't unique to Project Monarch. You've seen it in
works of fiction. It's in hereditary. Yes, arguably, it.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Feels a lot like a fictionalized version of a secret
military thing or a secret project like this.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
And a lot of a lot of cults also practice
this kind of disassociation.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It's just yeah, it's just in a different form.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
You don't have to use you don't need to get
demons involved, you don't need to get the cabala involved.
You just start disassociating somebody through manipulation.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Crowley also practiced some stuff like this, and the Illuminatus trilogy,
which is a fantastic work, also depicts this. Nor your
description might sound weird to some of us listening, but
that is that is the case. The idea is that
this this occult stuff was either a theatrical trapping or
(14:49):
they were practicing magic to summon some sort of extra
dimensional entity and make people, typically children, minors, into vessels
for these creatures. That's a lot to take in. Yeah,
you know, to to phrase it simply, we'll get back
(15:09):
to some of this stuff, but to phrase it simply.
The people who believe in Project Monarch see it as
a subset of the earlier program Project Artichoke and its
successor mk Ultra. One of the most well known authors
on the subject of Project Monarch is a person named
Kathy O'Brien. You can find multiple people who claim that
(15:33):
they were somehow involved in this Monarch program, but Kathy
O'Brien is one of the most prominent. She wrote a
book called The Transformation of America. Since this is an
audio show, I just want to make sure you get
the pun there. Trance as in hypnotic trance and in
formation as in an organization or group. So in Transformation
(15:56):
of America, she claims she was a victim of Monarch.
She relates it in the following way. She says she
was sexually abused as a child on multiple occasions by
various people, starting with her father and then expanding to
a network of individuals who were connected with the underground
(16:18):
world of underage pornography yikes.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Yeah, and then according to the story, that's when she
became a victim of Project Monarch. She describes Monarch as
a project that used trauma based mind control that's in
quotes there to create separate, distinct personalities within a single individual.
This kind of makes you think of almost the Manchurian
(16:44):
candidate effect, where you've got like a buried personality that
can be summoned at will, or not your will, but
the will of your controller.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
So, according to O'Brien, this is accomplished with the help
of some of these occult trappings and of course a
lot of theater of the mind. She claims, for example,
that George W. Bush used holograms for intimidation, and this
is a quote from Harry He said She said Bush
apparently activated a hologram of the lizard like alien, which
provided the illusion of Bush transforming like a chameleon before
(17:16):
my eyes. In retrospect, I understand that Bush had been
painstakingly careful in positioning our seats in order that the
hologram's effectiveness be maximized.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
So on the surface, it sounds like somebody who's making
up a story. When you're listening to it with a
skeptical mind, it's difficult to not do that, I think,
because it sounds so out there, it sounds so fantastical.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Sit right there and watch me lizard real quick.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, wait, well I need to position your seat for war.
But you know, I think that's what with these kinds
of things. It's difficult, even listening to it, to put
your mind in a place where you can think, well,
is that in any way possible or is there like,
(18:09):
what are the what are the possible explanations for this?
To have that belief that George W. Bush somehow is
using hologram technology to trick you or show you something
of an extraterrestrial.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, it may be. Socratic method is the one of
the best ways to approach this, you know, start with
a question. Let's say, if that were true, what set
of circumstances would compel one of the most powerful people
in the world to do this. It sounds a bit tall.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Order Dick Cheney didn't do anything.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Oh, you know, I imagine that he was involved. He
seems like a guy would be excited by holograms. Who
wouldn't They're neat.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I think you wouldn't.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Did you guys hear that Roy Orbison and Buddy Holly
are doing a hologram tour.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
This is now a thing, like it's really becoming a thing.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Started with Tupac.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Yeah, it did start with Tupac, but now it's like
whole package hologram. I only bring it out because it
used to be something that was used by the military. Uh,
and now it's, you know, just for funzies.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Churches are using that across the globe right now. The
megachurches that have a single person like Andy Stanley or
somebody who's giving a talk.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Or Kreflow Dollar.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, and he's being he and they are being like
turned into holograms essentially. And other churches.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
I would have thought they would have made one of
Jesus Christ. That'd be a cool effect.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
It's touchy. That's a touchy one. It's tough. I mean,
imagine making a hologram of any religious figure, a hologram
of Buddha, a hologram of Mohammed.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Well, that would be problematic, right, you know?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
That would be Project Bluebeam.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yep, which is which is a different show. The important
part here before we get to sidetracked holograms. The important
part here is the timing of this, because the allegation
then is not just that prominent world leaders are resorting
to this technology to to traumatize children. It's that this
(20:17):
technology existed in their circle before it existed anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But the big question is why would someone do that?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
And it doesn't stay in the US. O'Brien paints a
global portrait of abuse. She claims that forces in Mexico,
the US, Europe, Saudi Arabia more are all actively involved
in Monarch and its successors, its successor programs for the
express purpose of creating sex slaves and maintaining child abuse rings.
(20:49):
Several years ago, that would have sounded impossible. Several years ago,
it would have ohbrien claims to have phenomenal photographic rec
of these events, despite previously suppressing them. Or having them
suppressed by shadowy government agents. Her recollections in her book
come overwhelmingly, almost entirely from what's called hypnotic regression. Hypnotic
(21:15):
regression is a is a process in which a hypnotist
sits with a person and takes them into a trance
state and guides them through reliving past experiences. The big
problem with hypnotic regression.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Is the G word. You just said. They're being guided.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Guided, there we go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Right, because the ideas can be slightly influenced with this
tiny keyword or a tiny word that is thrown in
during the guidance process that then leads the You know,
how do you know if the person your subject, if
it's their imagination that's taking you down that path, or
or if they're actually recalling an event that's taking them
(22:03):
down that path of recollection? Is it recollection or fiction?
And there's no real way to tell right right there.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
The problem is that if you're putting an individual in
a state of enhanced suggestibility, then they're very open to guiding.
And this is not to say that the hypnotists in
question are purposely doing this. No, it's just very easy
to accidentally take someone in a weird in a weird direction.
(22:34):
And you know, we know that memory betrays us and
most of our memories are increasingly works of fiction as
we age. But that's let's leave let's leave O'Brien and
Monarch there right now in a second, yes.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And let's just go ahead in and put forth right here.
That you may see online accusations of a lot of
pop stars, and generally younger female pop stars, there are
a lot of accusations that they have been into visually
involved in Monarch in some way. A lot of times
you'll see allegations of a music video like a Katy
Perry music video or a Britney Spears was a big
(23:10):
one back in the day of look at the symbology,
look at the symbols happening in these videos. This is
Project Monarch, like them showing us without telling us in
a way like almost flaunting it. You'll see that a lot.
You'll see when when a young pop star has a breakdown,
like a public breakdown, that Project Monarch gets brought up
(23:33):
a lot. Especially especially what I'm recalling is when Britney
Spears like shaved her head and ago, yes exactly, he
leave Brittany, Well, that was a part of it. But genuinely,
that's when you will see a lot of that stuff
cropping up as part of the trauma that was supposedly
(23:53):
given to her or that she experienced through Project Monarch.
Just putting that out.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
There and other people's that the world of the world
of entertainment music especially is already crooked and horrific and
just sad empathetic enough without needing to add in that
other the other problems. But it's true, and that's a
(24:18):
very good point. You can find numerous lists of people
like Amanda Bynes, Britney Spears, who else, tell us tell
us your favorites, right, Oh, Katie Perry, as you said, Yeah,
Margo Kidder, Margot Kidders.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I don't know who that is.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
She played Lois Lane in the Christopher Reeve Superman movies.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Yeah, and she was found like wandering naked, I believe
in other people's yards in Beverly Hills.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Who. Yeah, she had like a an episode. She was not.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well and she was not gang stalked, but other people
have been. This is this is something related to m
k Ultra that you will hear a lot. Some of
us listening now have asked us in the past to
cover gang stalking, and we can do an entire episode
on it, so we'll just give you the broad strokes here.
(25:08):
Gang Stalking is the idea that a person, for one
reason or another, will be surreptitiously monitored and followed in
person by a group of unidentified people. So imagine you
wherever you're at. Now, imagine that you get up and
(25:30):
you walk outside and there's someone in the distance in
the corner. They have a green hat on, and you
see them, but you don't know. You might not be
in a town where people wave at strangers, so you
just keep walking. You go to a store and while
you're in the store, let's say you're feeling healthy, so
(25:52):
you buy some juice and some almonds, and then the
person who rings you up is looking at you weird.
Look behind you. There's someone in a green hat at
the end of Aisle three, pretending to shop, but just
sort of standing there.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
And you know they're pretending to shop.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And you know they're pretending to shop, and you leave,
walking back, and as you're walking back, you see three
other people, possibly in green hats, possibly not, and they're
all just sort of standing around as if they're waiting
for you. One person is on a phone talking. You
can't hear what they're saying, but they are staring directly
at you. That's Gang's talking.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It's essentially the Truman Show.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If you are Truman, it feels as though for the
person experiencing it, or believing they're experiencing it, it feels like
you are Truman.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
And it's a more malicious Truman Show.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yes, So is this harassment? Is a paranoia? Is it
good old fashioned spycraft? All three of those answers, in
at least a few cases are correct. Yeah, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, I mean for someone experiencing perhaps a short term
high paranoia situation or feeling like I can imagine this.
I think I've probably experienced like short term gang stocking
at the height of a time in my life when
I'm feeling unsure, or something where I just feel as
(27:23):
though everyone around me is out.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
To get me, just for a moment, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I think we've all maybe experienced something like that where
everything just feels off, And there are a lot of
people out there who have experienced that before and for
perhaps more deep seated problems. They've experienced that, But we
do know that that kind of surveillance on somebody, like
actual on the ground surveillance occurs, and it does, and
(27:47):
it's not that uncommon.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
It's not that uncommon. It's sloppy spycraft, yes, because typically
you would want your observer to be unnoticed.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
But it also happens in other countries, especially authoritarian countries
or dictatorships. It'll probably it'll probably phase out a little
bit as digital surveillance becomes overwhelmingly efficient.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, at this point, you could just get into somebody's
cell phone and then it could be on a table
and you got everything you need right right.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
And by the way, we got a great email from
our essay intern we did it was moving on. Congratulations
and we'll go. Let's go to Gang Stocking in its
own episode. Let's make that an episode in the future, okay.
And in the meantime, we'd like to hear your stories
about gang Stocking. We'd like to know what you would
(28:45):
like to share with your fellow listeners. For now, it
seems that we have monarch as a as a thing
that's universally dismissed by a lot of the mainstream. We
have gang stocking, which is problematic, but we do know
that mk ultra is moving forward at least in the
(29:06):
legal system and not here in the US.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That's right, we have to go to Canada for a
look into a class action lawsuit. We're going to do
that right after another word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Oh Canada. So we had spoken in mk Ultra one
oh one about the two unsuccessful lawsuits here in the
States related to mk ultra. In Canada, there is a
class action suit in the works now. Survivors and families
people who are affected by mk ultra and the CIA
(29:47):
mind control program at a place called McGill University's Allen
Memorial Institute in Montreal are going to sue Quebec and
the federal governments both the US and Canada because of
what they say had been done to them five decades ago. Well,
you can follow this group on Facebook Survivors Allied against
(30:09):
Government Abuse. The acronym would be SAGA with two aays
at the beginning. And this includes victims and family members
of victims of Canadians who participated in brainwashing experiments under
the supervision of a man named doctor Ewen Cameron. He
was director of the Psychiatric hospital from the forties, fifties,
(30:32):
and sixties, he did something that would be familiar to
fans of the control group. He conducted these experiments that
were called deep patterning or psychic driving. What they essentially
did through a number of a number of techniques. They
would try to erase the patient's memories, which is not
(30:52):
an impossible thing to do, and then go a step
further an attempt to reprogram them with new thoughts. One
of the examples of this would include forcing someone to
listen to repetitive audio loop over and over and over again,
four hours and hours on end, while also drugging them
(31:14):
to keep them in a comatose or semi comatose unconscious state.
So this could last for as long as three days.
Just you're put under, you're administered like the food and
water you need to survive, and the entire time, there's
some tape saying, you know, probably in the doctor's voice
(31:38):
or maybe in your own voice. Yeah, when it's like
I can only trust doctor Frederick, doctor Frederick wants me.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Well, certainly most effective in your voice, I think, as
the patient, air as the subject, because then it becomes
your own inner dialogue.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Right, and you're in a state of sensory deprivation when
you're put under.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So yikes.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, so this is this is really weird, creepy stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And if you want an example of a fictionalized version
of it again, check out Control Group. It's available right now,
all episodes and season two is going to be happening
at some point.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
That is true. Yeah, it's a creepy story. It's creepy story.
The Canadian government gave doctor Cameron roughly half a million
dollars between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty five and twenty eighteen.
If we wanted to adjust for inflation, that's four million
bucks US. They gave him four million bucks. And then
(32:38):
the CIA also gave him money through one of those
front organizations that you mentioned our previous episode, Matt, the
Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
That's great, So are we for it? Or again it.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Are we for? Are we for mk ultra in general?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
The various projects, the various projects, But let's hear some
arguments for and against.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Okay, let's let's start with Monarch.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
That sounds good, yes, yes, So the first thing we
should be very very clear about. So when you say
four four or against we're saying for or against them
actually existing, the veracity of these claims. We're not we're
not arguing that we support projects.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Well, I mean that's your position.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Okay, yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Absolutely, it is a democracy.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
But no, it's exactly I mean, this is it's a cliche,
but this is utterly shrouded in mystery. There's a lot
of conjecture that goes into picking this stuff apart. So
what are the arguments for its existence versus against its existence?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Okay, well, okay, let's again. We'll start with Project Monarch, right, Okay,
we're talking about how we got these fy A documents
for m k Ultra in general. Right, overall, there is
no in any of those documents that talk about ways
to implant demons and or use ancient mysticism or anything
(34:10):
to that effect to have a thing called Project Monarch.
It doesn't exist. Right through. The primary evidence that you're
gonna find for Project Monarch is somebody online somewhere generally,
or speaking in a book or something saying I was
a part of Project Monarch as a victim slash subject.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I like this so intellectual exercise counterpoint, the majority of
mk ultra documents were destroyed.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
It's true. So when we say the counterpoint, yeah, it's
a great counterpoint.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Most of them were destroyed.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
And you would probably want to destroy something if you
had anything written down about using demons to manipulate people
and create sex slaves.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Right, yeah, agreed, you just toss off sex slaves.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Just like nothing.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Well I did, because that's essentially what that is, essentially
what the monarch is supposed to be about. Right, whether
it's a lot of times alleged it's a sex slave,
like an iconic sex slave like a Britney Spears, or
someone that then projects out to millions of people across
the planet, what what what it should be to belimates essentially,
(35:21):
or it's a single human being who is being you know,
abused and like in the shadows by someone powerful.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So we know that, unfortunately and tragically, we know that
the entertainment industry, from film to music and so on,
is rife with widespread, covered up sexual abuse. We do
know that, we know that we know a lot of
the people who've done that are never going to see
(35:50):
a day in court. They're never going to go to jail.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But some of them actually are now.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
But some Yeah, a few, sure, but I guess that's
better than nothing. We also know that intelligence agencies across
the world use honeypot traps. Right, that's where you get
you get compromit, as the Russians would call it, on
someone by filming them in a sexually compromising situation, usually
(36:19):
with a paid professional sex worker, but occasionally with someone
who has been coerced into playing that role, like the
Ppe tape right, like the that may or may not exist,
right from the Steele dossier right for the current president.
That's that's one of the hot allegations. There is one
funny story. Because we're we're exploring some dark and disturbing things,
(36:41):
I can at least give us one less terrible story.
You can read this in the War Is Boring The
War Is Boring section on medium dot com by Darien Kavanaugh.
The CIA and the KGB both to blackmail Indonesia's first president,
(37:03):
a man who went by the name Sukarno, because Indonesia
played an important role in the Cold War between the
US and the USSR, which is all it all comes
back to that usually in this time in history, they
decided to do a honeypot scheme. The KGB operatives dressed
(37:25):
as flight attendants and had group sexual relations with the dictator.
And then the CIA produced a essentially a pornographic film,
and they thought that they would be able to use
this on the dictator. You know what I mean, get
in line with our ideas or we will expose you,
(37:50):
you dirty, dirty dog. And the problem is the problem
is into it. He was very happy be with it.
He asked for copies. He liked to show it to people.
It was like icebreaker for the It's like, look, look, look, look,
look these are flight attendants. Move yeah. Yeah, it's like,
(38:12):
you know, let me play that part again. Somebody rewind
this because this is like, I'm really proud of this one.
Uh So this is not.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
A bunch of flight attendants get together in film, the
important people.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
So uh so it did backfire, right, And I think
that's I think that's a hilarious story. It's a hilarious
story about evil people. But the reason it's important is
because it shows us that these sorts of operations do exist. However,
again to your point, Matt, there is no mention of
monarch and any MK Ultra documents, there's no mention of
(38:50):
monarch in anything official. Religious and political scholars criticize Kathy
O'Brien's claims because they say there is absolutely no supporting evidence,
and at this point there is absolutely no supporting evidence.
David G. Robinson characterized them as symptomatic of something called
moral panic and noted that no one has ever been
(39:12):
prosecuted of such crimes, nor as any corroborrety material evidence
ever been produced.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It just stinks that you can't you can't just take
that for what it is, because you have to go
back to the point of if any of this was
actually happening happening, it would be suppressed so hard that
maybe just we would never know about it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Right. And also also even if someone who is a
survivor of abuse doesn't have all of the facts or
the dates at their command, that doesn't mean that they're lying. Yeah,
you're right, And I've brought with me today an old
(39:53):
friend of ours, this book Outbreak, The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary
Social Behavior, which is about moral panics and how they spread.
I highly recommend this book for anyone who is interested
in seeing just how quickly moral panics can spread. It's
always the idea of something either so morally reprehensible and
(40:18):
against social mores that are universally acknowledged to be good things.
So that would be stuff like cannibalism, child abuse, etc.
All the terrible, terrible things, or something that is alarming
and possibly life threatening. People are frightened because a new
report says that you will get eye cancer in two
(40:45):
weeks if you don't drink coffee. So the stores all
sell out at coffee. Yeah, people are fighting over coffee.
And then later the same paper that published that publishes
a retraction on page ten and no one reads it.
Coffee prices go through the roof smart evil.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Let's do it right now.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
We can't we go that we do it on any guy.
So it's true though, I mean, it doesn't mean that
people are stupid. It means that we're easily led to
We have this idea of what the right thing to
do is, and we want to be on the right
side of history, right, so we will do what we can.
(41:25):
And sometimes we should research, research this stuff before we
react to it. And then there's another burning question. This
is a big counterpoint noel for four or against. If
this is true, if any of this is true, then
how are these project monarch survivors alive. How are they
publishing books? How are they writing about this and not
(41:47):
you know, committing suicide by getting tied into a duffel
bag or having shot themselves twice in the back of
the head.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Because it's not entirely.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
True, I'm asking like, it seems like if there were
an organization this powerful, this story would never have gotten out. Right.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
It certainly does seem like that, especially considering the purging
that went down.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
You know, great first place, Yeah, great point.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
So where is this name coming from?
Speaker 5 (42:15):
I mean, there was no the name wasn't in any
kind of any kind of documentation. Where does this begin
to circulate? Do we even have an origin for that?
The way this information got out into.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
The public record primarily from people who say that they
survived the program, So anecdotes.
Speaker 5 (42:31):
And are they corroborated, Like are they people who knew
each other or I mean just wondering if there is
any connection between these people or this is interesting.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
It's tricky because it goes back to the hypnotic regression question.
There may well be people who say they knew each
other now but their story changed as their sessions continued.
There were also stories of people so in the universe
of this people are not meeting one another under their
(43:04):
real names. You're nine years old, you meet a ten
year old who is called different names. These horrific things
occur to you. You never see a ten year old again,
but you learned that they have died. So it has
baked in difficulty when it comes to tracking or corroborating things.
(43:25):
And it's part of the Satanic panic, honestly, the moral
panic that swept through the US and really peaked in
the nineteen eighties. If you were around in the nineteen eighties,
then you know about this, right D and D was
a herald of dark Satanic times to come. Everybody with
(43:48):
any sort of authority that was not religious, any secular power,
was part of the Illuminati. They were dressing in robes,
they were circling around. There were killing goats, children, eating people,
human flesh. They were doing bohemian grove stuff, but not
with an effigy with people. Those are the ideas. This
(44:10):
made some big careers in journalism and in the publishing world,
and at this point still despite all the public attention,
there's been no evidence of a widespread event of this nature.
And that's an important point because it's not like it's
just the five of us, you know, you listening, the
(44:33):
three of us and the mission control. It's not like
it's just five people looking into this. This was a nation.
These were news networks. They were pouring millions into this
search and they came up with buppkis. There have, however,
been several cases of child abuse networks functioning in the
(44:53):
halls of power in Belgium, in the US, in the UK.
These abuse networks are real, they're just not necessarily satanic,
and they're not necessarily tied to intelligence agencies, at least
the ones we found.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, and the.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Satanic angle is almost like an This is one way
to think about it. If you place Satanism and the
devil and that kind of evil on top of something
like this that may even be provable with in some
way or another or spoken about by enough people, if
(45:31):
you place those labels on it, it becomes so crazy
and out there that it almost becomes impossible that these
kinds of abuse networks could function at that level.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
It makes you believe that it's impossible when you bring
the devil and evil into it like that, rather than
it just being a group of powerful people that have
really messed up things that they like to do. Does
that make any sense?
Speaker 5 (45:59):
Does not mentioned that the whole idea of like secret
Satanic organizations has been time and time again disproven, Like
the idea of like the whole Satanic panic thing. It's
a panic because no one's really doing in the way
that you might think, you know what I'm saying, like
even like the child murders at robin Hood Hill or whatever,
Like the idea that there are groups of quote unquote
(46:20):
Satan worshippers that are doing human sacrifices and stuff. I
mean always to me, what's been proven out is that
it's much more of a form of protest and kind
of like a middle finger to the man and like
you know, organized religion than it is some kind of
shadowy cabal doing rituals in like a dungeon somewhere right.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And the thing is that these two things are these
two practices are often conflated. There are criminals like Jeffrey
Epstein who repeatedly abuse children, and they can have cover
ups occur, like Jeffrey Epstein who again repeatedly abused children
and as of now totally got away with it. Then
(47:01):
there are groups who are pursuing a religious or ceremonial thing,
you know what I mean. Like they get to like
Anton Leavey is not a deistic Satanist. It's not someone
who acknowledges the existence of a Judeo Christian Islamic God.
And then some adversary incided with the bad guy. And
(47:24):
they're very much against any kind of abuse. You know,
they get a bad rap, but absolutely, but we do
know that there are times when this sort of child
abuse draped in Satanic ritual has occurred. True Detective Season one,
which is fantastic, seems at least partially inspired by a
(47:47):
genuine child abuse network that operated out of a church
in Ponchatoula, Louisiana. For the record, the creator of the show,
Nick Pizolado, initially said I had no idea this was
a thing. I don't know what you're talking about, but also.
Speaker 5 (48:02):
Said that about a couple other aspects we sort of
lifted for that first season too, right right, right exactly
some of the philosophical writings that Rust Cole's character spouted.
I don't remember who it was, but it was sort
of a modern day philosophy guy who he kind of
lifted some of those lines.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
From absolutely and maybe he should have just come clean
and been transparent about it. But we also know there's
an elephant in the room. Several of us listening are saying,
how are you guys going to talk about this kind
of stuff and not mention the Catholic Church. Members of
the Catholic Church actively covered up numerous cases of child
(48:37):
abuse for at the very very least decades. And if
current behavior or recent behavior was any indication that we're
looking at a phenomenon that goes back centuries and.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
It's so widespread that it's at the very top of
the organizational structure.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Right, So the more cynical among us will often regard
monarch claim as either a delusion, an indication of being
mentally unwell, or blatant cash grab. But there's no denying
child abuse is real. There's no indication that the US
government actively poured money into a program designed to brainwash
people through the abuse of minors. And this brings up
the phenomenon that we're we've explored before, but it's key
(49:19):
to this, and we've been we've been getting closer and
closer to that in this episode. The problem of individual
actors versus institutional actors make up a name for a.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Politician, Kringle Rickenbuck.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
Okay, So Kringle Rickenback, representative in uh Idaho is found
to be committing flagrant, repeated acts of abuse of some
kind of abuse. Okay, and Kringle Rickenbach turns out it
has been getting really weird with it too. He wears
some kind of ritual mask. He's got a robe and
(49:56):
a apron, a little dance he does before he eats
people whatever. He's really messed up guy. But even even
though he's proven to have committed these, he goes to jail.
He's insane. And this doesn't mean that the government or
the constituency he represented co signed this in any way.
(50:16):
They were voting for him because of his stance on
taxes and they did not know he was accountable. So
he's an individual actor. However, let's take a real world case,
in the case of Jimmy Saville or several Catholic priests,
there's an institution that actively aids and abets the criminals involved.
The Catholic Church covered up for sexual abusers, and high
(50:41):
society in England, including law enforcement and including the government,
right parliament, media, corporations of UBC. They covered up this,
these crimes, and that means it's a matter of institutional actors.
So the big question and is people in the US
(51:02):
government were doing horrific, dirty things. Were they doing it
as individuals or were they doing it as representatives of
an institution. That's the big question, and it's tough to answer.
But we do have some good news, at least for
people seeking justice in Canada.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Remember that lawsuit we mentioned at the top of this section, Well,
let's get into that a little bit. So the court
still has to certify certain things about this, right, but
here's some quotations some things we know about it thus far.
So there's this doctor and doctor Cameron, and the lawsuit
(51:40):
states that his tactics were nothing more than an electronic lobotomy,
and it also claims that he damaged a lot of
his other patients' brains and shattered their psychees and left
them unable to function in a society and within their families.
So this one doctor came Cameron, really did some seemingly
(52:02):
horrific things, at least according to the lawsuit, right.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And he died. He has since passed
away of a heart attack in nineteen ninety two. The
government of Canada paid seventy seven of his victims a
settlement of one hundred thousand dollars and rejected the claims
of more than two hundred and fifty others.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
So maybe just the most egregious offending moments, I guess.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
And probably the way that large governments were people who
could provide a paper trail proving where they were and win.
The case may go to court, hopefully it will, but
according to the National Post, the Government of Canada is
going to be in an antagonistic position for the course
(52:49):
of this legal proceeding. The Government of Canada asked a
third party, a guy named George T. H. Cooper, to
conduct an inquiry into doctor Cameron's depatterning work between nineteen
fifty and sixty five, and this Cooper report, which was
concluded in nineteen eighty six, said that Canada did not
hold any legal liability or moral responsibility in respect to
(53:09):
these treatments. So Canada said, uh.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah, hands up.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
We're both throwing our hands up like that. Canada says
not us, not us, and McGill University Health Center also
said Cameron carried out these experiments, but they were not
responsible for his actions. So they're also saying not us.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Not us bad Apple, not us bad.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Apple, not an institution an individual. And this leads to
some conclusions, or as close as we can get at
this point. Missing information about mk Ultra will continue to
feed conspiratorial theories, claims, anecdotes and so on, and we
probably won't be We can disprove some stuff, but we
(53:54):
will never be able to fully understand what mk ultra
actually did exactly.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
And there, you know, it's so funny. The lack of
transparency here is the big issue, at least from the
government side. If these documents were available at some point
for everybody to see them, it would be more of
a oh wow, look at what we did back then.
(54:21):
That's pretty brutal.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I hope we at least gained some knowledge from that,
from putting all these people through this terrible trauma. Hopefully
we can get some justice for those people. But now
it's just it's just a breeding ground for much worse
ideas because of that lack of transparency.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, exactly. We can keep an eye on the Canadian lawsuit.
Legally speaking, that's the only thing continuing right now and
maybe maybe we'll learn some more information about a specific
project of MK Ultra. Right, and maybe that's how we
get things. Maybe we collect breadcrumbs. But that means it
(55:03):
takes a long time to build the whole loaf.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
You know, it sounds like a whole podcast.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
It just a podcast on figuring out.
Speaker 5 (55:11):
Figuring out Well, we had talked about having Russell tark
back on.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (55:16):
Yeah, it could be just a thing.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Let's just get him to host a show where he
remote views to track down the scientists who are involved
in MK Ultra programs and then does hypnotic regression on
them and or remote viewing with them and teaches them
to go back and remember.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
I like the pitch. Let's do it so also, I mean, also,
we are reaching the point where, just due to the
limitations of human life span, a lot of people who
could make a deathbed confession have already died. You know
what I mean?
Speaker 3 (55:50):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
We do want to include on a on a last note,
one of the most important things in any episode dealing
with this sort of subject matter is this, If you
are a survivor of abuse, or if you know someone
who has survived abuse, please be aware that you are
(56:12):
not alone. There are numerous organizations, both government funded and private,
that are there for you to provide free counseling, to
provide resources, to provide therapy. We do hope that you
reach out to these sources. They are there for you.
There is someone waiting to.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Help you, absolutely and if you want to.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy
to find online.
Speaker 5 (56:41):
Find it in the handle conspiracy Stuff, where we exist
on Facebook X and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 3 (56:46):
We're conspiracy Stuff. Show call our number.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
It's one eight three three std WYTK, leave a voicemail.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
And if you have more to say, we can't wait
to hear from you at our good old fashioned email
address where we are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow conspiracy realists. Thank you for joining us this evening.
We sure hope you liked our classic episode on mk
Ultra one oh one, because guess what, we're back with
MK Ultra two oh one.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, and the big question here is, Okay, we know
what was happening or release allegedly was happening during MK Ultra,
what was allowed to be released?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Did it stop?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
And what about all the other stuff that remains unknown
about MK Ultra today because there's a lot. There's so much.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
There's so much, and we're about to talk about it. Here.
We go.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
My name is Matt, my name is Noman.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
They call me Ben. We are joined with our super
producer Paul. Mission control decands. Most importantly, you are you,
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. This is in some ways a
sequel episode. It's a follow up to our previous episode
MK Ultra one oh one, in which we described exactly
(01:24):
what mk ultra is equally is important. We describe what
it is not and how the public learned about it today. However,
we are looking beyond that twisted origin story. We're going
off the charted proven paths. We're going across the edges
of the map. We're exploring the conspiracies and allegations related
(01:46):
to mk Ultra in the modern day. Listeners, this episode
contains content that may be disturbing to some of us
in the audience, and that means you can turn back
now or walk with us just a bit further away
from the lights.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Oh. I like that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That's a twist on it, and I really like that.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
It's true. As you know, Matt, this is very much
true in this episode. Well, let's I mean, let's let's
start off with something easy, something simple. What what is
m k Ultra For anyone who said, I see M
k Eltra one oh one in that podcast feed, but
forget that, I want two oh one?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well one two?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Okay, Well, I think two one is the right way
to go.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I think that's the way Georgia State would would do it.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So then that's my that's my favorite Alma Mo. Yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
The first thing you have to do is not think
about mk Ultra as one thing. It is not one thing.
It is a series of things, of projects, of experimentations,
of different experiments, of different groups of people who are
who were not necessarily working together. A lot of times
the aims were very similar, but you know, you have
different stuffy groups essentially, and it was all about, really,
(03:03):
at the heart of it, trying to find ways to
influence human beings, influence their perception, their behavior, or even
get them to do some or take some action that
you want them to take. And from all the official
accounts of the program really didn't work out that great.
They found some interesting things that could occur with drugs,
(03:24):
with especially how drugs interact with each other. Sometimes if
you get a really psychedelic trip and then influence somebody's
mind down the road, or if you can keep someone
within a psychedelic trip for long enough. Interesting things there.
But here's the deal, most everything didn't work the way
(03:44):
they wanted it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
To, right.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
It turns out that the human brain was too complex
for the sort of technology and tactics that Uncle Sam
was applying in this case. They were famously inspired to
pursue this line of research due to fears that the
Soviet Union and the government of China were pursuing things
(04:09):
and already had a jump in this sort of behavioral modification,
primarily when they saw a cardinal confess to cavalcadive crimes
that he clearly did not do back in the fifties,
I believe, and what they thought was happening was not
the case in that scenario. What they thought was happening
(04:30):
was that this guy had been brainwashed completely and totally
and believed these demonstrably false things. But it turns out
that the only thing that really happened was Communist forces
and security services just beat the ever loving snot out
of this guy repeatedly and then, you know, psychologically abused him.
(04:51):
And he later in life said that he said there
was no spooky, spooky psychotronic stuff going on. But we
do know that, as you said, Matt, some of these
programs had limited success. They learned new things that would
be useful later. From all official accounts, there are no
(05:12):
Manchurian candidates, despite what Sir Hans Sirhan has claimed, and
he is alive and he is in jail. He maintains
that he was brainwashed.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, he keeps trying. He kept trying. I think it's
over right, think, I don't know if he can go
for parole over parole again, it might be he might
be done. Maybe that's not true. That's what I feel like.
I remember hearing let's put it in there anyway, and
somebody correct me.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So now it seems like if we if that's the
only information you have about m k Ultra, now you're
in a state where it seems as if this is
an open and shut horrific historical events. But we're gonna
shymel on it just a little bit because the problem
with MK Ultra is this. The CIA purged everything they
(06:04):
could internally find related to MK Ultra back in nineteen
seventy three under Director Helms.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
When you say purged, and what are you talking about here, and.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
We're talking about physically burning paperwork? This this only compounded
the original problem, which was that they were not keeping
much paperwork to begin with. They didn't want the trail.
They wanted the minimum amount of stuff they needed to
have in order to keep their ducks in a row,
so they purged everything in seventy three. The public only
(06:35):
found hard proof of the operation when a Freedom of
Information Act request turned up two thousand documents that had
been misfiled, two thousand documents that were supposed to have
also been absolutely utterly destroyed. So this means that in
twenty nineteen, and probably in twenty twenty, and probably in
thirty nineteen, if people still care about it, we will
(06:56):
not know the full extent of what the CIA was
up to. We don't know all the experiments they conducted.
We have some hints, but it's possible that we never
will learn. As we noted previously, we have officially entered
the realm of deathbed confessions. What do we mean by this?
We mean that the only way the public will learn
more about this program will be if someone who was
(07:20):
working with it firsthand has a change of heart and
confesses or provides new information because they're you know, that's
how deathbed confession works. You're about to go out. You
want to meet the afterlife if such exists with a
clean conscience.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
And that is if that person even really truly understands
what they were doing or experimenting on, if they were
not just a tiny piece of a larger puzzle that
was the experiment right, which is highly possible. That kind
of plausible deniability is built into a lot of these experiments.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
The thing about a deathbed confession too, is like, it's
what better moment is there to be able to drop
a truth bomb where you don't have to be around
to deal with the aftermath or the fallout the consequences
directed at you, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Unless you have kids. Wow, that's true and grandkids, that's
fair true.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It's also it's also strangely common for people to make
fake deathbed confessions. Sometimes that can be due to a
deteriorating mental state and someone really believes that they're Jack
the Ripper and you're like, oh, man, uncle Bill, you
were born in nineteen seventy three. The math doesn't check out,
(08:33):
and they're like, no, it was me. It's my dying
wish that you tell the world the truth and you
just have to hold their hand.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That went dark. So at this point, as twenty nineteen,
as we record this, there has not been any large
scale revelation related to m k Ultra since those investigations
back in the nineteen seventies when the senators famously held
up a heart attack gun in the halls of Congress
(09:02):
and you can see this clip online. Folks. It's it's
somewhat distressing the gun itself. I don't know if we
talked about this in a pre Did we talk about
this in a previous episode?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
We did?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I believe we've brought I think we brought this up
when we went over the control group where we Brentwood
and we talked about some of this stuff. Yeah, and
then before that too with a DARPA yes.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, and assassination attempts. So it's a pretty neat idea.
It's a gun that fires frozen darts of poison and
they're so small that they can go through your clothing
without leaving a mark. And if it works, if they
successfully get the shot off, the corpse will look as
(09:44):
if it died from a heart attack. Clever stuff, camp
mall piercing. Yeah. I can't buy it in Walmart.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, and don't even if it was available, Do not
buy that.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Don't. For anyone who is listening and not in the
United States, one thing that would probably baffle you, or
maybe not, is that Walmart sells guns, which is, you know,
that's what we all accept as normal here. But if
you're from Sweden or something and you walk into a supermarket,
wouldn't you be surprised?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Yeah? Probably?
Speaker 5 (10:15):
You know, Dick's Sporting Goods is actually phasing out the
sale of guns.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I think largely.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Because I mean, I'm sure there was some political reasons
for doing it, but I think from what I heard,
it was becoming less and less profitable.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, and for a big box store like that, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Usually you would go to a specialty store to buy
guns or a gun show, righteah.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And they're also most of them long rifles of some sort,
that's right, like a shotgun or a hunting rising. Not
quite as effective unless you're sniping.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
And no one sells the heart attack gun that we
know of. So all this secrecy has led to an
interesting situation. The strange and strangely incomplete story of m.
K Oultra has become enshrined in conspiracy folklore. It has
been associated with multitudes of other theories, and typically the
(11:10):
gist of those theories will go the US public learned
about mk Ultra. That is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
There's much much more beneath the surface, and if you
buy my book you will learn it, which sounds a
little bit cynical, but that is honestly the way it goes.
And it's all based on a very valid and troubling question.
(11:33):
What else went on from the nineteen fifties through the
nineteen seventies. Furthermore, what if anything happened afterward?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And we're going to delve into that right after a
quick word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Here's where it gets crazy, more or less. Immediately after
the reveal of mk Ultra, people in the United States
and abroad began raising allegations of continuing related programs, and
this quickly, quickly, quickly got very out there in terms
of the claims. The most infamous alleged project related to
(12:15):
mk Ultra is something called Project Monarch.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yes, and this is this is one of the one
of the more out there things I would say that
we're going to discuss today. There are some weird things
we're going to discuss today, but this is one of
the feels like it's out there because, oh, here's a
little spoiler alert. It involves demons, it involves rituals, the
(12:41):
Kabbala and mysticisms, some of our favorite things, multiple personalities
and or demonic possession. So let's get into it.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
Yeah, all of that though within what's described as a
systematic framework. So this is like some serious like X
files type stuff, and it involved some things, some rituals
that could be described as satanic in nature, usually involving
some form of cannibalism, and performed with the intent of
(13:14):
attaching a demon or you know, a pantheon, like a
group of demons, and in order to kind of create
alternate versions of individuals in the same way that you
might through therapy create an alternate version of a self
that didn't experience the trauma that caused you to have
(13:35):
you know, psychological problems.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Right, this, this idea of intentionally creating alters or alternate
personalities isn't unique to Project Monarch. You've seen it in
works of fiction. It's in hereditary. Yes, arguably, it.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Feels a lot like a fictionalized version of a secret
military thing or a secret project like this.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
And a lot of a lot of cults also practice
this kind of disassociation.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It's just yeah, it's just in a different form.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
You don't have to use you don't need to get
demons involved, you don't need to get the cabala involved.
You just start disassociating somebody through manipulation.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Crowley also practiced some stuff like this, and the Illuminatus trilogy,
which is a fantastic work, also depicts this. Nor your
description might sound weird to some of us listening, but
that is that is the case. The idea is that
this this occult stuff was either a theatrical trapping or
(14:49):
they were practicing magic to summon some sort of extra
dimensional entity and make people, typically children, minors, into vessels
for these creatures. That's a lot to take in. Yeah,
you know, to to phrase it simply, we'll get back
(15:09):
to some of this stuff, but to phrase it simply.
The people who believe in Project Monarch see it as
a subset of the earlier program Project Artichoke and its
successor mk Ultra. One of the most well known authors
on the subject of Project Monarch is a person named
Kathy O'Brien. You can find multiple people who claim that
(15:33):
they were somehow involved in this Monarch program, but Kathy
O'Brien is one of the most prominent. She wrote a
book called The Transformation of America. Since this is an
audio show, I just want to make sure you get
the pun there. Trance as in hypnotic trance and in
formation as in an organization or group. So in Transformation
(15:56):
of America, she claims she was a victim of Monarch.
She relates it in the following way. She says she
was sexually abused as a child on multiple occasions by
various people, starting with her father and then expanding to
a network of individuals who were connected with the underground
(16:18):
world of underage pornography yikes.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Yeah, and then according to the story, that's when she
became a victim of Project Monarch. She describes Monarch as
a project that used trauma based mind control that's in
quotes there to create separate, distinct personalities within a single individual.
This kind of makes you think of almost the Manchurian
(16:44):
candidate effect, where you've got like a buried personality that
can be summoned at will, or not your will, but
the will of your controller.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
So, according to O'Brien, this is accomplished with the help
of some of these occult trappings and of course a
lot of theater of the mind. She claims, for example,
that George W. Bush used holograms for intimidation, and this
is a quote from Harry He said She said Bush
apparently activated a hologram of the lizard like alien, which
provided the illusion of Bush transforming like a chameleon before
(17:16):
my eyes. In retrospect, I understand that Bush had been
painstakingly careful in positioning our seats in order that the
hologram's effectiveness be maximized.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
So on the surface, it sounds like somebody who's making
up a story. When you're listening to it with a
skeptical mind, it's difficult to not do that, I think,
because it sounds so out there, it sounds so fantastical.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Sit right there and watch me lizard real quick.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, wait, well I need to position your seat for war.
But you know, I think that's what with these kinds
of things. It's difficult, even listening to it, to put
your mind in a place where you can think, well,
is that in any way possible or is there like,
(18:09):
what are the what are the possible explanations for this?
To have that belief that George W. Bush somehow is
using hologram technology to trick you or show you something
of an extraterrestrial.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, it may be. Socratic method is the one of
the best ways to approach this, you know, start with
a question. Let's say, if that were true, what set
of circumstances would compel one of the most powerful people
in the world to do this. It sounds a bit tall.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Order Dick Cheney didn't do anything.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Oh, you know, I imagine that he was involved. He
seems like a guy would be excited by holograms. Who
wouldn't They're neat.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I think you wouldn't.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Did you guys hear that Roy Orbison and Buddy Holly
are doing a hologram tour.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
This is now a thing, like it's really becoming a thing.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Started with Tupac.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Yeah, it did start with Tupac, but now it's like
whole package hologram. I only bring it out because it
used to be something that was used by the military. Uh,
and now it's, you know, just for funzies.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Churches are using that across the globe right now. The
megachurches that have a single person like Andy Stanley or
somebody who's giving a talk.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Or Kreflow Dollar.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, and he's being he and they are being like
turned into holograms essentially. And other churches.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
I would have thought they would have made one of
Jesus Christ. That'd be a cool effect.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
It's touchy. That's a touchy one. It's tough. I mean,
imagine making a hologram of any religious figure, a hologram
of Buddha, a hologram of Mohammed.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Well, that would be problematic, right, you know?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
That would be Project Bluebeam.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yep, which is which is a different show. The important
part here before we get to sidetracked holograms. The important
part here is the timing of this, because the allegation
then is not just that prominent world leaders are resorting
to this technology to to traumatize children. It's that this
(20:17):
technology existed in their circle before it existed anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But the big question is why would someone do that?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
And it doesn't stay in the US. O'Brien paints a
global portrait of abuse. She claims that forces in Mexico,
the US, Europe, Saudi Arabia more are all actively involved
in Monarch and its successors, its successor programs for the
express purpose of creating sex slaves and maintaining child abuse rings.
(20:49):
Several years ago, that would have sounded impossible. Several years ago,
it would have ohbrien claims to have phenomenal photographic rec
of these events, despite previously suppressing them. Or having them
suppressed by shadowy government agents. Her recollections in her book
come overwhelmingly, almost entirely from what's called hypnotic regression. Hypnotic
(21:15):
regression is a is a process in which a hypnotist
sits with a person and takes them into a trance
state and guides them through reliving past experiences. The big
problem with hypnotic regression.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Is the G word. You just said. They're being guided.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Guided, there we go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Right, because the ideas can be slightly influenced with this
tiny keyword or a tiny word that is thrown in
during the guidance process that then leads the You know,
how do you know if the person your subject, if
it's their imagination that's taking you down that path, or
or if they're actually recalling an event that's taking them
(22:03):
down that path of recollection? Is it recollection or fiction?
And there's no real way to tell right right there.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
The problem is that if you're putting an individual in
a state of enhanced suggestibility, then they're very open to guiding.
And this is not to say that the hypnotists in
question are purposely doing this. No, it's just very easy
to accidentally take someone in a weird in a weird direction.
(22:34):
And you know, we know that memory betrays us and
most of our memories are increasingly works of fiction as
we age. But that's let's leave let's leave O'Brien and
Monarch there right now in a second, yes.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And let's just go ahead in and put forth right here.
That you may see online accusations of a lot of
pop stars, and generally younger female pop stars, there are
a lot of accusations that they have been into visually
involved in Monarch in some way. A lot of times
you'll see allegations of a music video like a Katy
Perry music video or a Britney Spears was a big
(23:10):
one back in the day of look at the symbology,
look at the symbols happening in these videos. This is
Project Monarch, like them showing us without telling us in
a way like almost flaunting it. You'll see that a lot.
You'll see when when a young pop star has a breakdown,
like a public breakdown, that Project Monarch gets brought up
(23:33):
a lot. Especially especially what I'm recalling is when Britney
Spears like shaved her head and ago, yes exactly, he
leave Brittany, Well, that was a part of it. But genuinely,
that's when you will see a lot of that stuff
cropping up as part of the trauma that was supposedly
(23:53):
given to her or that she experienced through Project Monarch.
Just putting that out.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
There and other people's that the world of the world
of entertainment music especially is already crooked and horrific and
just sad empathetic enough without needing to add in that
other the other problems. But it's true, and that's a
(24:18):
very good point. You can find numerous lists of people
like Amanda Bynes, Britney Spears, who else, tell us tell
us your favorites, right, Oh, Katie Perry, as you said, Yeah,
Margo Kidder, Margot Kidders.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I don't know who that is.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
She played Lois Lane in the Christopher Reeve Superman movies.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Yeah, and she was found like wandering naked, I believe
in other people's yards in Beverly Hills.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Who. Yeah, she had like a an episode. She was not.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well and she was not gang stalked, but other people
have been. This is this is something related to m
k Ultra that you will hear a lot. Some of
us listening now have asked us in the past to
cover gang stalking, and we can do an entire episode
on it, so we'll just give you the broad strokes here.
(25:08):
Gang Stalking is the idea that a person, for one
reason or another, will be surreptitiously monitored and followed in
person by a group of unidentified people. So imagine you
wherever you're at. Now, imagine that you get up and
(25:30):
you walk outside and there's someone in the distance in
the corner. They have a green hat on, and you
see them, but you don't know. You might not be
in a town where people wave at strangers, so you
just keep walking. You go to a store and while
you're in the store, let's say you're feeling healthy, so
(25:52):
you buy some juice and some almonds, and then the
person who rings you up is looking at you weird.
Look behind you. There's someone in a green hat at
the end of Aisle three, pretending to shop, but just
sort of standing there.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
And you know they're pretending to shop.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And you know they're pretending to shop, and you leave,
walking back, and as you're walking back, you see three
other people, possibly in green hats, possibly not, and they're
all just sort of standing around as if they're waiting
for you. One person is on a phone talking. You
can't hear what they're saying, but they are staring directly
at you. That's Gang's talking.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It's essentially the Truman Show.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If you are Truman, it feels as though for the
person experiencing it, or believing they're experiencing it, it feels like
you are Truman.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
And it's a more malicious Truman Show.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yes, So is this harassment? Is a paranoia? Is it
good old fashioned spycraft? All three of those answers, in
at least a few cases are correct. Yeah, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, I mean for someone experiencing perhaps a short term
high paranoia situation or feeling like I can imagine this.
I think I've probably experienced like short term gang stocking
at the height of a time in my life when
I'm feeling unsure, or something where I just feel as
(27:23):
though everyone around me is out.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
To get me, just for a moment, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I think we've all maybe experienced something like that where
everything just feels off, And there are a lot of
people out there who have experienced that before and for
perhaps more deep seated problems. They've experienced that, But we
do know that that kind of surveillance on somebody, like
actual on the ground surveillance occurs, and it does, and
(27:47):
it's not that uncommon.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
It's not that uncommon. It's sloppy spycraft, yes, because typically
you would want your observer to be unnoticed.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
But it also happens in other countries, especially authoritarian countries
or dictatorships. It'll probably it'll probably phase out a little
bit as digital surveillance becomes overwhelmingly efficient.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, at this point, you could just get into somebody's
cell phone and then it could be on a table
and you got everything you need right right.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
And by the way, we got a great email from
our essay intern we did it was moving on. Congratulations
and we'll go. Let's go to Gang Stocking in its
own episode. Let's make that an episode in the future, okay.
And in the meantime, we'd like to hear your stories
about gang Stocking. We'd like to know what you would
(28:45):
like to share with your fellow listeners. For now, it
seems that we have monarch as a as a thing
that's universally dismissed by a lot of the mainstream. We
have gang stocking, which is problematic, but we do know
that mk ultra is moving forward at least in the
(29:06):
legal system and not here in the US.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That's right, we have to go to Canada for a
look into a class action lawsuit. We're going to do
that right after another word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Oh Canada. So we had spoken in mk Ultra one
oh one about the two unsuccessful lawsuits here in the
States related to mk ultra. In Canada, there is a
class action suit in the works now. Survivors and families
people who are affected by mk ultra and the CIA
(29:47):
mind control program at a place called McGill University's Allen
Memorial Institute in Montreal are going to sue Quebec and
the federal governments both the US and Canada because of
what they say had been done to them five decades ago. Well,
you can follow this group on Facebook Survivors Allied against
(30:09):
Government Abuse. The acronym would be SAGA with two aays
at the beginning. And this includes victims and family members
of victims of Canadians who participated in brainwashing experiments under
the supervision of a man named doctor Ewen Cameron. He
was director of the Psychiatric hospital from the forties, fifties,
(30:32):
and sixties, he did something that would be familiar to
fans of the control group. He conducted these experiments that
were called deep patterning or psychic driving. What they essentially
did through a number of a number of techniques. They
would try to erase the patient's memories, which is not
(30:52):
an impossible thing to do, and then go a step
further an attempt to reprogram them with new thoughts. One
of the examples of this would include forcing someone to
listen to repetitive audio loop over and over and over again,
four hours and hours on end, while also drugging them
(31:14):
to keep them in a comatose or semi comatose unconscious state.
So this could last for as long as three days.
Just you're put under, you're administered like the food and
water you need to survive, and the entire time, there's
some tape saying, you know, probably in the doctor's voice
(31:38):
or maybe in your own voice. Yeah, when it's like
I can only trust doctor Frederick, doctor Frederick wants me.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Well, certainly most effective in your voice, I think, as
the patient, air as the subject, because then it becomes
your own inner dialogue.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Right, and you're in a state of sensory deprivation when
you're put under.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So yikes.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, so this is this is really weird, creepy stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And if you want an example of a fictionalized version
of it again, check out Control Group. It's available right now,
all episodes and season two is going to be happening
at some point.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
That is true. Yeah, it's a creepy story. It's creepy story.
The Canadian government gave doctor Cameron roughly half a million
dollars between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty five and twenty eighteen.
If we wanted to adjust for inflation, that's four million
bucks US. They gave him four million bucks. And then
(32:38):
the CIA also gave him money through one of those
front organizations that you mentioned our previous episode, Matt, the
Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
That's great, So are we for it? Or again it.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Are we for? Are we for mk ultra in general?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
The various projects, the various projects, But let's hear some
arguments for and against.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Okay, let's let's start with Monarch.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
That sounds good, yes, yes, So the first thing we
should be very very clear about. So when you say
four four or against we're saying for or against them
actually existing, the veracity of these claims. We're not we're
not arguing that we support projects.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Well, I mean that's your position.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Okay, yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Absolutely, it is a democracy.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
But no, it's exactly I mean, this is it's a cliche,
but this is utterly shrouded in mystery. There's a lot
of conjecture that goes into picking this stuff apart. So
what are the arguments for its existence versus against its existence?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Okay, well, okay, let's again. We'll start with Project Monarch, right, Okay,
we're talking about how we got these fy A documents
for m k Ultra in general. Right, overall, there is
no in any of those documents that talk about ways
to implant demons and or use ancient mysticism or anything
(34:10):
to that effect to have a thing called Project Monarch.
It doesn't exist. Right through. The primary evidence that you're
gonna find for Project Monarch is somebody online somewhere generally,
or speaking in a book or something saying I was
a part of Project Monarch as a victim slash subject.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I like this so intellectual exercise counterpoint, the majority of
mk ultra documents were destroyed.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
It's true. So when we say the counterpoint, yeah, it's
a great counterpoint.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Most of them were destroyed.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
And you would probably want to destroy something if you
had anything written down about using demons to manipulate people
and create sex slaves.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Right, yeah, agreed, you just toss off sex slaves.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Just like nothing.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Well I did, because that's essentially what that is, essentially
what the monarch is supposed to be about. Right, whether
it's a lot of times alleged it's a sex slave,
like an iconic sex slave like a Britney Spears, or
someone that then projects out to millions of people across
the planet, what what what it should be to belimates essentially,
(35:21):
or it's a single human being who is being you know,
abused and like in the shadows by someone powerful.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So we know that, unfortunately and tragically, we know that
the entertainment industry, from film to music and so on,
is rife with widespread, covered up sexual abuse. We do
know that, we know that we know a lot of
the people who've done that are never going to see
(35:50):
a day in court. They're never going to go to jail.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But some of them actually are now.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
But some Yeah, a few, sure, but I guess that's
better than nothing. We also know that intelligence agencies across
the world use honeypot traps. Right, that's where you get
you get compromit, as the Russians would call it, on
someone by filming them in a sexually compromising situation, usually
(36:19):
with a paid professional sex worker, but occasionally with someone
who has been coerced into playing that role, like the
Ppe tape right, like the that may or may not exist,
right from the Steele dossier right for the current president.
That's that's one of the hot allegations. There is one
funny story. Because we're we're exploring some dark and disturbing things,
(36:41):
I can at least give us one less terrible story.
You can read this in the War Is Boring The
War Is Boring section on medium dot com by Darien Kavanaugh.
The CIA and the KGB both to blackmail Indonesia's first president,
(37:03):
a man who went by the name Sukarno, because Indonesia
played an important role in the Cold War between the
US and the USSR, which is all it all comes
back to that usually in this time in history, they
decided to do a honeypot scheme. The KGB operatives dressed
(37:25):
as flight attendants and had group sexual relations with the dictator.
And then the CIA produced a essentially a pornographic film,
and they thought that they would be able to use
this on the dictator. You know what I mean, get
in line with our ideas or we will expose you,
(37:50):
you dirty, dirty dog. And the problem is the problem
is into it. He was very happy be with it.
He asked for copies. He liked to show it to people.
It was like icebreaker for the It's like, look, look, look, look,
look these are flight attendants. Move yeah. Yeah, it's like,
(38:12):
you know, let me play that part again. Somebody rewind
this because this is like, I'm really proud of this one.
Uh So this is not.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
A bunch of flight attendants get together in film, the
important people.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
So uh so it did backfire, right, And I think
that's I think that's a hilarious story. It's a hilarious
story about evil people. But the reason it's important is
because it shows us that these sorts of operations do exist. However,
again to your point, Matt, there is no mention of
monarch and any MK Ultra documents, there's no mention of
(38:50):
monarch in anything official. Religious and political scholars criticize Kathy
O'Brien's claims because they say there is absolutely no supporting evidence,
and at this point there is absolutely no supporting evidence.
David G. Robinson characterized them as symptomatic of something called
moral panic and noted that no one has ever been
(39:12):
prosecuted of such crimes, nor as any corroborrety material evidence
ever been produced.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It just stinks that you can't you can't just take
that for what it is, because you have to go
back to the point of if any of this was
actually happening happening, it would be suppressed so hard that
maybe just we would never know about it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Right. And also also even if someone who is a
survivor of abuse doesn't have all of the facts or
the dates at their command, that doesn't mean that they're lying. Yeah,
you're right, And I've brought with me today an old
(39:53):
friend of ours, this book Outbreak, The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary
Social Behavior, which is about moral panics and how they spread.
I highly recommend this book for anyone who is interested
in seeing just how quickly moral panics can spread. It's
always the idea of something either so morally reprehensible and
(40:18):
against social mores that are universally acknowledged to be good things.
So that would be stuff like cannibalism, child abuse, etc.
All the terrible, terrible things, or something that is alarming
and possibly life threatening. People are frightened because a new
report says that you will get eye cancer in two
(40:45):
weeks if you don't drink coffee. So the stores all
sell out at coffee. Yeah, people are fighting over coffee.
And then later the same paper that published that publishes
a retraction on page ten and no one reads it.
Coffee prices go through the roof smart evil.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Let's do it right now.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
We can't we go that we do it on any guy.
So it's true though, I mean, it doesn't mean that
people are stupid. It means that we're easily led to
We have this idea of what the right thing to
do is, and we want to be on the right
side of history, right, so we will do what we can.
(41:25):
And sometimes we should research, research this stuff before we
react to it. And then there's another burning question. This
is a big counterpoint noel for four or against. If
this is true, if any of this is true, then
how are these project monarch survivors alive. How are they
publishing books? How are they writing about this and not
(41:47):
you know, committing suicide by getting tied into a duffel
bag or having shot themselves twice in the back of
the head.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Because it's not entirely.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
True, I'm asking like, it seems like if there were
an organization this powerful, this story would never have gotten out. Right.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
It certainly does seem like that, especially considering the purging
that went down.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
You know, great first place, Yeah, great point.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
So where is this name coming from?
Speaker 5 (42:15):
I mean, there was no the name wasn't in any
kind of any kind of documentation. Where does this begin
to circulate? Do we even have an origin for that?
The way this information got out into.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
The public record primarily from people who say that they
survived the program, So anecdotes.
Speaker 5 (42:31):
And are they corroborated, Like are they people who knew
each other or I mean just wondering if there is
any connection between these people or this is interesting.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
It's tricky because it goes back to the hypnotic regression question.
There may well be people who say they knew each
other now but their story changed as their sessions continued.
There were also stories of people so in the universe
of this people are not meeting one another under their
(43:04):
real names. You're nine years old, you meet a ten
year old who is called different names. These horrific things
occur to you. You never see a ten year old again,
but you learned that they have died. So it has
baked in difficulty when it comes to tracking or corroborating things.
(43:25):
And it's part of the Satanic panic, honestly, the moral
panic that swept through the US and really peaked in
the nineteen eighties. If you were around in the nineteen eighties,
then you know about this, right D and D was
a herald of dark Satanic times to come. Everybody with
(43:48):
any sort of authority that was not religious, any secular power,
was part of the Illuminati. They were dressing in robes,
they were circling around. There were killing goats, children, eating people,
human flesh. They were doing bohemian grove stuff, but not
with an effigy with people. Those are the ideas. This
(44:10):
made some big careers in journalism and in the publishing world,
and at this point still despite all the public attention,
there's been no evidence of a widespread event of this nature.
And that's an important point because it's not like it's
just the five of us, you know, you listening, the
(44:33):
three of us and the mission control. It's not like
it's just five people looking into this. This was a nation.
These were news networks. They were pouring millions into this
search and they came up with buppkis. There have, however,
been several cases of child abuse networks functioning in the
(44:53):
halls of power in Belgium, in the US, in the UK.
These abuse networks are real, they're just not necessarily satanic,
and they're not necessarily tied to intelligence agencies, at least
the ones we found.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, and the.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Satanic angle is almost like an This is one way
to think about it. If you place Satanism and the
devil and that kind of evil on top of something
like this that may even be provable with in some
way or another or spoken about by enough people, if
(45:31):
you place those labels on it, it becomes so crazy
and out there that it almost becomes impossible that these
kinds of abuse networks could function at that level.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
It makes you believe that it's impossible when you bring
the devil and evil into it like that, rather than
it just being a group of powerful people that have
really messed up things that they like to do. Does
that make any sense?
Speaker 5 (45:59):
Does not mentioned that the whole idea of like secret
Satanic organizations has been time and time again disproven, Like
the idea of like the whole Satanic panic thing. It's
a panic because no one's really doing in the way
that you might think, you know what I'm saying, like
even like the child murders at robin Hood Hill or whatever,
Like the idea that there are groups of quote unquote
(46:20):
Satan worshippers that are doing human sacrifices and stuff. I
mean always to me, what's been proven out is that
it's much more of a form of protest and kind
of like a middle finger to the man and like
you know, organized religion than it is some kind of
shadowy cabal doing rituals in like a dungeon somewhere right.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And the thing is that these two things are these
two practices are often conflated. There are criminals like Jeffrey
Epstein who repeatedly abuse children, and they can have cover
ups occur, like Jeffrey Epstein who again repeatedly abused children
and as of now totally got away with it. Then
(47:01):
there are groups who are pursuing a religious or ceremonial thing,
you know what I mean. Like they get to like
Anton Leavey is not a deistic Satanist. It's not someone
who acknowledges the existence of a Judeo Christian Islamic God.
And then some adversary incided with the bad guy. And
(47:24):
they're very much against any kind of abuse. You know,
they get a bad rap, but absolutely, but we do
know that there are times when this sort of child
abuse draped in Satanic ritual has occurred. True Detective Season one,
which is fantastic, seems at least partially inspired by a
(47:47):
genuine child abuse network that operated out of a church
in Ponchatoula, Louisiana. For the record, the creator of the show,
Nick Pizolado, initially said I had no idea this was
a thing. I don't know what you're talking about, but also.
Speaker 5 (48:02):
Said that about a couple other aspects we sort of
lifted for that first season too, right right, right exactly
some of the philosophical writings that Rust Cole's character spouted.
I don't remember who it was, but it was sort
of a modern day philosophy guy who he kind of
lifted some of those lines.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
From absolutely and maybe he should have just come clean
and been transparent about it. But we also know there's
an elephant in the room. Several of us listening are saying,
how are you guys going to talk about this kind
of stuff and not mention the Catholic Church. Members of
the Catholic Church actively covered up numerous cases of child
(48:37):
abuse for at the very very least decades. And if
current behavior or recent behavior was any indication that we're
looking at a phenomenon that goes back centuries and.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
It's so widespread that it's at the very top of
the organizational structure.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Right, So the more cynical among us will often regard
monarch claim as either a delusion, an indication of being
mentally unwell, or blatant cash grab. But there's no denying
child abuse is real. There's no indication that the US
government actively poured money into a program designed to brainwash
people through the abuse of minors. And this brings up
the phenomenon that we're we've explored before, but it's key
(49:19):
to this, and we've been we've been getting closer and
closer to that in this episode. The problem of individual
actors versus institutional actors make up a name for a.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Politician, Kringle Rickenbuck.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
Okay, So Kringle Rickenback, representative in uh Idaho is found
to be committing flagrant, repeated acts of abuse of some
kind of abuse. Okay, and Kringle Rickenbach turns out it
has been getting really weird with it too. He wears
some kind of ritual mask. He's got a robe and
(49:56):
a apron, a little dance he does before he eats
people whatever. He's really messed up guy. But even even
though he's proven to have committed these, he goes to jail.
He's insane. And this doesn't mean that the government or
the constituency he represented co signed this in any way.
(50:16):
They were voting for him because of his stance on
taxes and they did not know he was accountable. So
he's an individual actor. However, let's take a real world case,
in the case of Jimmy Saville or several Catholic priests,
there's an institution that actively aids and abets the criminals involved.
The Catholic Church covered up for sexual abusers, and high
(50:41):
society in England, including law enforcement and including the government,
right parliament, media, corporations of UBC. They covered up this,
these crimes, and that means it's a matter of institutional actors.
So the big question and is people in the US
(51:02):
government were doing horrific, dirty things. Were they doing it
as individuals or were they doing it as representatives of
an institution. That's the big question, and it's tough to answer.
But we do have some good news, at least for
people seeking justice in Canada.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Remember that lawsuit we mentioned at the top of this section, Well,
let's get into that a little bit. So the court
still has to certify certain things about this, right, but
here's some quotations some things we know about it thus far.
So there's this doctor and doctor Cameron, and the lawsuit
(51:40):
states that his tactics were nothing more than an electronic lobotomy,
and it also claims that he damaged a lot of
his other patients' brains and shattered their psychees and left
them unable to function in a society and within their families.
So this one doctor came Cameron, really did some seemingly
(52:02):
horrific things, at least according to the lawsuit, right.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And he died. He has since passed
away of a heart attack in nineteen ninety two. The
government of Canada paid seventy seven of his victims a
settlement of one hundred thousand dollars and rejected the claims
of more than two hundred and fifty others.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
So maybe just the most egregious offending moments, I guess.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
And probably the way that large governments were people who
could provide a paper trail proving where they were and win.
The case may go to court, hopefully it will, but
according to the National Post, the Government of Canada is
going to be in an antagonistic position for the course
(52:49):
of this legal proceeding. The Government of Canada asked a
third party, a guy named George T. H. Cooper, to
conduct an inquiry into doctor Cameron's depatterning work between nineteen
fifty and sixty five, and this Cooper report, which was
concluded in nineteen eighty six, said that Canada did not
hold any legal liability or moral responsibility in respect to
(53:09):
these treatments. So Canada said, uh.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah, hands up.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
We're both throwing our hands up like that. Canada says
not us, not us, and McGill University Health Center also
said Cameron carried out these experiments, but they were not
responsible for his actions. So they're also saying not us.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Not us bad Apple, not us bad.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Apple, not an institution an individual. And this leads to
some conclusions, or as close as we can get at
this point. Missing information about mk Ultra will continue to
feed conspiratorial theories, claims, anecdotes and so on, and we
probably won't be We can disprove some stuff, but we
(53:54):
will never be able to fully understand what mk ultra
actually did exactly.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
And there, you know, it's so funny. The lack of
transparency here is the big issue, at least from the
government side. If these documents were available at some point
for everybody to see them, it would be more of
a oh wow, look at what we did back then.
(54:21):
That's pretty brutal.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I hope we at least gained some knowledge from that,
from putting all these people through this terrible trauma. Hopefully
we can get some justice for those people. But now
it's just it's just a breeding ground for much worse
ideas because of that lack of transparency.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, exactly. We can keep an eye on the Canadian lawsuit.
Legally speaking, that's the only thing continuing right now and
maybe maybe we'll learn some more information about a specific
project of MK Ultra. Right, and maybe that's how we
get things. Maybe we collect breadcrumbs. But that means it
(55:03):
takes a long time to build the whole loaf.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
You know, it sounds like a whole podcast.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
It just a podcast on figuring out.
Speaker 5 (55:11):
Figuring out Well, we had talked about having Russell tark
back on.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (55:16):
Yeah, it could be just a thing.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Let's just get him to host a show where he
remote views to track down the scientists who are involved
in MK Ultra programs and then does hypnotic regression on
them and or remote viewing with them and teaches them
to go back and remember.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
I like the pitch. Let's do it so also, I mean, also,
we are reaching the point where, just due to the
limitations of human life span, a lot of people who
could make a deathbed confession have already died. You know
what I mean?
Speaker 3 (55:50):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
We do want to include on a on a last note,
one of the most important things in any episode dealing
with this sort of subject matter is this, If you
are a survivor of abuse, or if you know someone
who has survived abuse, please be aware that you are
(56:12):
not alone. There are numerous organizations, both government funded and private,
that are there for you to provide free counseling, to
provide resources, to provide therapy. We do hope that you
reach out to these sources. They are there for you.
There is someone waiting to.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Help you, absolutely and if you want to.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts. We try to be easy
to find online.
Speaker 5 (56:41):
Find it in the handle conspiracy Stuff, where we exist
on Facebook X and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 3 (56:46):
We're conspiracy Stuff. Show call our number.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
It's one eight three three std WYTK, leave a voicemail.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
And if you have more to say, we can't wait
to hear from you at our good old fashioned email
address where we are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
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Noel Brown
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