Barbie

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, just jumping in with a quick announcement, a
very exciting one. In addition to the shows that you'll hear,
Jamie and I plug on this episode for our upcoming
Shrek Tannic tour, we just added a show in Dublin
on May twenty ninth. We will be at the Irish
Film Institute and we are covering Titanic. So come to

(00:24):
that show that we were finally able to confirm in Dublin.
We're so excited for it. And then, speaking of Dublin,
come to my birthday show. I'm doing a stand up
comedy show with me and local comedians on my birthday
on May seventeenth, also in Dublin. That show is at
Hysteria Comedy Club. Tickets to both shows, as well as

(00:44):
tickets for all of the other shows on this tour,
can be found at Linktree Slash Bechtel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Enjoy the episode on the bich Doodcast.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
The questions ask if movies have women and are discussions
just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? It's
the patriarchy, zephim vest start changing.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
With the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hi, Barbie Caitlin, Hi, Barbie, Jamie and Hi, Barbie listeners.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you so much for tuning in. This is the
Bechdel Cast. My name is Barbie Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
And my name is Barbie Caitlin Durante. And this is
our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,
using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. And
this is a special episode because we went on tour
covering the Barbie Movie. We went to a bunch of cities.

(01:41):
What you're about to hear shortly is the live show
that we did. We this is the audio from the
Sacramento show we recorded.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
This tour was such a blast we've in the past.
I mean, let's let's get into it. Folks. You know,
you're our family, your emergency contacts and vice versa. So yeah,
we were really excited to do the Barbie Show live.
This is sort of our first time doing We did
a five city tour, but we only covered two movies

(02:10):
and most of them were Barbie. And it was a
really cool experience because I feel like we got the
opportunity to build out I mean, I feel like a
lot of the time with the live episodes, we've built
out an episode, but this time we got to build
out a show and like it was just such a blast.
We went to San Francisco's, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego.

(02:35):
Four out of five of those cities were the first
time that we were going and meeting folks, and it
was just truly the best, And I mean it was
just really cool to see, you know, like a real
sense of camaraderie among Bachtel cast listeners. We had a
lot of people dressing up like just we come out
of live performance and most of the time we're cooped

(02:58):
up in our homes intensely discussing film and it's fun
discourse and then it's just like really fun and freeing
and nice to do that with the people who listen
to this show. So if you attended any of these shows,
thank you so much for coming. Barbies. Chances are that

(03:18):
we talk to you personally because we are we enjoy
doing that. It's really fun and quite frankly, I just
like to see everyone's little outfits they're wearing. To quote
the Will Ferrell character I hate in this movie in
the least creepy way possible. Yes, but this was a blast,

(03:40):
and so this is our one of our live shows.
If you enjoy the vibe you're picking up and you
happen to live in the UK, well, guess what good news.
We're going on tour in the UK. We sure are.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
At the time of this recording. We have shows booked
in late May in London, Oxford, Manchester and Edinburgh. So
if you live in or near any of those places,
or also if you just kind of live like anywhere
to do like a little good trip. Yeah, if you

(04:15):
want to do a little trip, we're taking a trip,
so you should too, So come see us live in
the UK. Tickets for those shows are at link Tree, Slash,
specdel Cast And we're so excited because we're covering Titanic
and Shrek.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
The Shrek Tannic tour is going to go really hard,
So if you can be there, highly recommended that you
be there. Yeah, and yeah, again, thanks to everyone who
came out to the Barbie tour, and you know, thank
you to all of the venues that hosted us. We're
posting the episode from STAB Comedy Theater and Sacramento, but
there were so many wonderful places that hosted us along

(04:54):
the way. And yeah, so without further ado, we present
to you of Barbie Movie episode the beck Delcast. Oh
my goodness, Hi Barbie, Hi Barbie. How I like how
quickly the Barbie shows get corny, like they just have

(05:16):
to be. You're like, we're just pushing through it. We
gotta do it. How is everybody? Thanks for coming? Thank
you for coming? Hell, yeah, we're really about to be
here because we're doing two shows back to back. So
we're doing I guess it's like the Margot Robbie wearing pink.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yes, we just took our kuayludes with the ninety the
ninety minute release, and so by the time that show starts,
we're gonna be so fucked up.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna pass out in the middle
of the show. We're gonna be crawling around. Anyways, we're
going to talk about Barbie. So uh, okay, we'll do
the free applause thing first. Give it up if you've
ever listened to our show, Okay, give it up. If
you have not and you're being dragged here against your wall, Okay,

(06:06):
we have some people that's okay. At the safe space.
Usually we are not able to make eye contact with all. Yeah,
So like if we do it's not personal. It's just
kind of like, there's nowhere to look. Who has seen
the Barbie movie?

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Round of applause?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Did anyone not see it? Whoa wow? People in San
Francisco last night who didn't know who we were hadn't
seen Barbie but still like wandered in and could not
account for why like it was and they still loved
the shows. I mean did they? I don't know. It

(06:49):
was hard to say. But you know, whoever that man was,
I'm rooting for him. I would never root for a
man true Eli ship. Okay, so well we'll kind of
get right into it. So Caitlin, Yeah, I know you've

(07:09):
seen the Barbie movie. It's true. Oh. One of my
favorite parts of the movie is when Easter races the
Godfather and he's like, oh, yeah, the Godfather? Right? Oh
is this the Godfather? Just like one of my favorite
line reads every But Okay, so I know you've seen
the movie. What is your history with Barbies in general?

Speaker 1 (07:32):
I did play with them. Brave brave of me to say, yes,
I had a handful as a kid. I mostly made
them have sex with each other. I had horny Barbies.
I also like probably played with them in other contexts,
but I don't remember that. And then after a while,
I was like sort of out growing or I felt

(07:54):
like I was outgrowing barbies. But I had a sister.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
She's still alive. I have a sister.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
She's three years younger than me, and so she was
still in her barbie playing phase, and like, I don't know,
just kind of like out of obligation, I would still
play with her. But I was like, I'm too old
for this, I'm too cool for this. So I turned
so many of my barbies into weird barbies. I would
chop off all their hair, I would paint them with
nail polish. I would pop off their heads, their limbs,
like I was just destroying the hell out of them

(08:23):
and having a blast.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
That's real older sibling behavior. This is just mensing.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
What about you, what's your barbie history and experience.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
I've been preparing for this episode my whole life. Hi,
I liked barbies when I was a kid. I like
had a million cousins, so most of my barbies were
handed me downs from them. And then my mom did
that thing where she like, we didn't have any money,
and yet she went into credit card debt, getting barbies
I couldn't touch, and then she'd be like, this is

(08:55):
going to pay for your college and you're like, they
shockingly are still at her house. They have accomplished nothing.
But yeah, my mom was a doll collector and I
really liked dolls, but I couldn't like, I don't know.
It was like the thing, especially when I hit middle school,
I wouldn't let myself just like something. I had to
turn it into like I had to intellectualize it, right,

(09:18):
So I was thank you, but like I was like, oh,
it's not that I like the movie Titanic because it's
a perfect movie. I actually am really into naval history.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
So it just kind of intersects with this interest I have,
and so I weirdly know a lot about naval history
to cover up for the fact that I and it's
similar with Barbie's.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
I didn't want to just be like I like playing
with dolls. I was like, it's actually an anthropological history
of American play things. And You're like, oh, what the
fuck was she talking about?

Speaker 1 (09:50):
You know, how how did it feel when you released
yourself from that need to and then you could just
be like, I like what I like?

Speaker 2 (09:57):
I think you?

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Uh, well, no, I don't know. Sorry, this just became
a therapy section.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
I think when I let lose, I let to lose,
and then people were coming over to the apartment and
they were like, it's too many dolls, you know. They
were like, put some we're being watched, you know. But
I also went through the phase and and you know,
I don't think I was wrong to do this, but
I think they went in middle school. I went through
the phase where I wrote the Mattel Corporational letter. Oh yeah,

(10:27):
I gone onto Microsoft word and I had a thing
or two to say about the body standards that Marbie encouraged.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
With Clippy, like are you writing a letter?

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Clippy was like, hey, Jamie, I support you fight the
power feminist icon and ally Clippy, I let's hope so God.
But yeah, non binary icon, Clippy, it's true. But yeah,
I like wrote a strongly worded letter and then returned
to my Barbies to play so, you know, child or

(11:00):
full of shit? But yeah, I loved Barbie. I have
a couple of slides to this effect. I also saw
did anyone watch the Barbie animated movies? Yeah? One person? Yeah,
you were either like my I didn't because they were like,
mostly there's me and my dolls. I'm actually this is
me on ludes and I was kind of intersects with

(11:24):
the second, but yeah, this is me on ludes with
all my handmaidown dolls. And then I want to share
some of my favorite haunted Barbies that I've learned about
in preparing for this episode. We could go to the
next slide. This is Chuck E Cheese Barbie. We have
two of them.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
My god, I know.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Isn't she great? She's wearing a Canadian tucks to go
to Chuck E Cheese alone. I can get behind that.
Next slide is Rosie Rosie o'donald Barbie. You have to
love it, you have to support it. I have her
at home. So that's my history with Barbie. Right.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Should we talk about the movie?

Speaker 2 (12:07):
I guess yeah we should. It's Caitlin's famous recap.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Oh right, Okay. The Barbie Movie opens on a reference
to two thousand and one A Space Odyssey, where narrator
Helen Mirren explains that for a long time, dolls were

(12:35):
always baby dolls, meaning that the little kids who played
with them could only ever play it being like mother
or parent, until Barbie dolls came along and changed everything
because Barbie she's got money, she's got a house, she's
got a car, she's got a career.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
They girl boss her right away. I love how it's
like it starts with this really funny parody and then
it immediately goes to amercial. You're just like, all right,
this is what the movie is. I think it's so funny.
And I've seen so many i don't know, like kind
of twitter pilled criticisms. They're like, this movie's so corporated,
it's a commercial. I'm like, yeah, it's a Barbie movie. Yeah,

(13:15):
what are you taking about? And then they're like, I'm
gonna go watch Fast and Furious, which is definitely not
a commercial.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
All right, Yes, okay, So Barbie she's got it all.
She can be anything, which means that women can be
anything and all the problems of feminism and equal rights
have been solved, or at least that's what the Barbie's
in Barbie Land think. And so we cut to barbieland
we meet Margo Robbie as stereotypical Barbie. She's perfect, she

(13:47):
lives in her dream house. She has so many Barbie friends,
some of them are played by Isa Ray Alexander Ship,
Emma Mackie to name a few. That's what I wrote
down in my notes.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Brave, thank you, and we already we get the foot
shot right away and immediately we're just like Quentin Tarantino
dead in a ditch. I was like, Wow, a footshot
that is also moving the plot forward.

Speaker 5 (14:15):
This wasn't that hard, wouldn't be because when Quentina what
did I say when when Quentin Tarantino showed this very
actor's foot in a different movie.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Aka, Once upon a Time in Hollywood?

Speaker 2 (14:34):
It was for It was for no reason's whole. Yeah. Anyways,
I was like, Wow, the Wiki feet community really won
with that one. We checked Margaret Robbie's Wiki feet on
stage last night because I just like to keep up
with the community, and she has the first perfect score
I've ever seen. Wow. Fine, you don't have to pretend

(14:56):
to care. It's fine. I thought it was interesting and
we can move on.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Okay, all right, So Barbie gets ready for her day.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
She heads to.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Beach because that's where the that's where the Ken's hang
out because Ken's job is beach of his beach.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
And we meet.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Ryan Gosling Ken, who is stereotypical Barbie's boyfriend. We meet
some other Kens as well as Alan played by Michael
Sarah shut out Alan. He's an ally.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
He's an Alan and he's an Ally. It's a perfect
Barbie archival. They're like, remember this guy, he just wore
Ken's clothes for a couple of years. I didn't know
about Alan until the movie. Have you heard of him?
Heard of him?

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (15:48):
But now I can never forget. He stands at the
edge of my bed. I have sleep, per.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, So Ryan Gosling Ken is very insecure and all
of his worth is entirely at attached to how much
Barbie likes him and how much attention she pays to him.
Then she invites him to her party that night, where
all the Barbiees and all the Kens are dancing and
it's a great time until Barbie says, do you guys

(16:21):
ever think about dying? And everyone's like what?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
But but they do know what dying dying is? Who
told them?

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Who told them? They also know what genitals are and
that they don't have them, And that makes you think
how they know about that?

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah? I don't know, I would let Yeah, they're aware
of a lot of complexity, but they're wilfully ignorant of it. Sure,
so it is like not too different from our world
in that way.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, okay, So this is the start of some weird
things happening for Barbie, Like she steps out of her
high heels and her FeCO flat instead of staying in
like tiptoe shape. So Barbie goes to Weird Barbie played
by Kate McKinnon to see what's going on, and Weird
Barbie tells her that there's a rift between Barbieland and

(17:12):
the real world and whoever is playing with her in
the real world must be sad and is projecting that
sadness onto Barbie. So Barbie has to go into the
real world to fix it. So she leaves Barbieland via
various modes of transportation and a very fun montage, but
she realizes that Ken has stowed away with her and

(17:33):
wants to come, and she reluctantly lets him tag along.
Then they arrive in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it?

Speaker 5 (17:45):
They have?

Speaker 2 (17:45):
We have, That's why she said that.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
And they notice that things seem to be reversed where
it's men who have all the power and privilege and
opportunity in this world and when and have very little
of those things. Barbie sets out to find the girl
who's playing with her, and she sees visions of a
girl playing with Barbie's. Then the girl becomes a teen

(18:10):
and she has a difficult relationship.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
With her mom.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Meanwhile, Ken is walking around Century City and he discovers
patriarchy and horses.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
I really the images to represent patriarchy are really it's like,
you know, patriarchy, Three Sylvesters, Still, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan,
Minnie Fridge, yup yup horse telling a woman to go away,

(18:44):
And you're like, all right, it's a I really love that.
You know, it's feminism one on one, but even it resonates,
I mean, it works. This also begins a split in
the movie that continues throughout, which is that Ken is
doing something fun and funny and Barbie is elsewhere crying.
This Yes, this becomes a big theme through the movie.

(19:06):
And sometimes I'm like, we gotta we gotta like, cunt
this lady a break. Oh my god, she's weeping seriously
and she's not. I'm not judging her for that. Bad
things keep happening to her. It's too close to home.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
I have mixed feelings because it's like, yes, I also
cry under the patriarchy all the time, but I also
have fun.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
I also horse. It's like major horse girl erasure when
you think about it. Yeah, you know why doesn't Barbie
love horse? Horse? Barbie famously loves horse. Hello, she's a Barbie.
Barbie loves horse. And then that American girl do all
loves horse? Wait? Which one, Felicity?

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Someone else said it for three people?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay, we have some bas I was a Kirsten Wow.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, she had the loopy braids. Remember I no one
cares well. Carsten was kind of a mid one.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
I was a kit Kittridge girl, little miss reporter during
the Great Depression, and then when and then when I
got really depressed during lockdown, I bought another one. Melody.
She's a motown singer from the sixties. Whoa These ones
didn't exist when I was. They know, they exist for

(20:31):
like children. Now I shouldn't have it, Okay, okay, but
I love her. She's one of the many watching eyes
in my own all right.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
So Ken discovers patriarchy and he freaking loves it. Then
we cut two Mattel Headquarters, where the CEO Mattel, played
by Will Ferrell, learns that a Barbie and a Ken
have escaped into the real world. This is overheard by
Will Ferrell's executive assistant, Gloria played by America Fererra, who

(21:04):
is like doodling and designing new Barbies such as Irrepressible
Thoughts of Death Barbie and full body Cellulate Barbie, and
we're like, hmm, is there a connection here? Then we
cut back to Barbie and Ken at a school where
Barbie approaches the girl from her vision. Her name is

(21:26):
Sasha played by Ariana Greenblat, but rather than the warm
welcome that Barbie was expecting, Sasha is like, hey, Barbie,
you've been making girls feel terrible about themselves for decades.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Is like, dear Mattel, yeah, I have some strong feelings
about Barbara Millicon Roberts and it's not wrong. And a
Clippi was like, are you writing a letter?

Speaker 1 (21:53):
H and so she's like, yeah, you make girls feel
horrible about themselves and you're a fascist.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
And then once again we have Ryan Gosling looking at horses,
Barbie crying crying, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
So then Ken heads back to Barbieland to teach the
other Kens what he learned about patriarchy. Meanwhile with Barbie.
So some guys show up who work at Mattel to
take her back to Mattel headquarters, but Barbie is uneasy
about the whole thing. She doesn't trust Will Ferrell, so
she runs away. As she's escaping, she stumbles upon a

(22:29):
woman named Ruth played by Rhea Pearlman. They have a
quick conversation and then Barbie escapes from the Mattel building.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, and this is when it kind of it's kind
of established that in this world, Rea Pearlman is God
and that yes really works for me, makes sense. There's
like that moment where they're doing the Sistine Chapel thing
where she like passes her the tea cup and you're like, whoa,
this is getting And then I went and there's all
these Book of Genesis references. It's a you know, the

(22:57):
discourse around this movie is a fucking disaster, but you
can find the clickbait about like is Barbie the Book
of Genesis? And then I read it and I was
kind of sweet, Yeah, I was like I get it.
Barbie Land the Garden of Eating, the you know you
can get Yeah, I don't want to talk about it,
but you can see that out on your own if

(23:20):
you want, okay.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
So Barbie escapes the Matila building and she's picked up
by Gloria and Sasha because Gloria is Sasha's mother, and
Barbie realizes that it wasn't Sasha's memories she was seeing,
it was Gloria's.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
I love this scene because it's a lot of like
characters connecting an exposition intercut with car commercial. It's really fun.
It's really like people are like dunking on this scene
and you're just like, fuck you, I don't know. I
think it's funny. And Greta Gerwig didn't even direct the
car shots. She was like, someone else can tink here,
that's not my problem.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
She's like, who directed Fast and the Furious. We get
him for a day, all right. So they figure out
this connection between them. They dodge the Mattel executives and
they need a place to hide, so the three of
them go to Barbieland. When they arrive, though, Barbieland is different,

(24:17):
it's not a place full of women's leadership and empowerment.
It is now a ken driven society.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
They start with like the scene from Top Gun. They're
doing Top Gun volume.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
Wait, yeah, all the Barbies are now like subservient to
the Ken's needs.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Ken has Stevens's brother is running for president.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Ye.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Ken has basically just infected barbiland with patriarchy and horses.
He's turned Barbie's dream house into Ken's Mojo Dojo Casa house.
He's brainwashed all the Barbies all of that. So Barbie
is horrified and devastated, and she's crying again.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
She is crying again, and she's and this time there's
no coming back.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah no. So eventually she and Gloria and Sasha pay
a visit to Weird Barbie to figure out what to do.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
I feel like Weird Barbie is kind of like a
friendly Grinch figure where she lives on the outskirts of
town at the top of a mountain. It's like if
you went to the Grinch's house and he was like, hey,
I know you hate me, but that's all good.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
Weird Barbie is also like Morpheus from the Matrix, like
here's your two choices, Red Pillar, blue Pill.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
And then I just feel like, I don't know, there's
a version of this movie to me where like Weird
Barbie gets like a laser gun and tries to like
exact revenge on the Barbies that have been talking shit
about her. I kind of want that for her. She's
really taking it lying down.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, justice for weird Barbie.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
At the end the she's like, can I be the
Queen of Garbage and and he's he's like, yeah, sure
you can be garbage.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh no, I want so much more. Yeah for her.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
So they all figure out a plan to unbrainwash the
Barbies and regain control of Barbieland via a series of
feminist monologues from Gloria and it works. And now the
Barbies have to get the Kens to turn on each other,
which they do by making them jealous of each other

(26:25):
via them playing guitar at the Barbies doing match Bugs
twenty covers.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
It's too easy, but I laugh every time.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
It's so funny. This is also where we get Ryan
Gosling singing I'm just Ken. Then the Kens go to
war with each other. During the battle, like while they're distracted,
the Barbies go to the White House or the Pink House,
I guess, and they're like, okay, let's vote to regain constitution.

(27:00):
So they regain control of Barbieland. And then Barbie and
Ken have a conversation where for some reason she apologizes
to him.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
And he says, thanks for saying that. I was like
you motherfucker. Literally, I that is like a point in
this movie that I am so baffled by. Want I
have to like, I have to blame it on studio
notes in my mind, because it doesn't make sense to
me that like in the previous scene, we have like

(27:30):
this brief sort of quiet scene with America Ferrera and
Margot Robbie and America Frere is like, he is trying
to take over the government. He stole your house, you
brainwash your friends, and Margot Robbie Barbie's like, yeah, that's right,
I don't have to feel bad for him. And then
in the next thing, she's like, I'm so sorry for
the perceived slight and then he's like, well, you shouldn't

(27:51):
have done that. Why I stole your house?

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Like yeah, and then on top of that, she goes
on to do a lot of emotional labor to be like, Ken,
it's time for you to discover who you are outside
of your relationship to me, and he's like okay, and
then again no apology, not even a thank you.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
No, he pays it forward to the other Kens. Yes,
and she's also I mean she's doing emotional labor for
him the whole time, like from the first frame he's
in where he's like, am I cool, She's.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Like like yes, okay. So then some changes are made to
barbieland such as weird Barbie is allowed to integrate into
Barbie society yea. Some of the Kens are also given
a tiny bit of political power. And then Will Ferrell
and the other Mattel executives have arrived in barbieland to

(28:45):
close the portal between the two worlds. I don't even
know why they're there, but get them out out of
Barbie Land. And then Sasha is like, well what about Barbie,
Like what's her ending? And Barbie doesn't really know what
she wants. But the woman from earlier, Ruth, appears again.
She turns out to be Ruth Handler, inventor of the

(29:06):
Barbie Doll Wow, And then she and Barbie have another
conversation that helps Barbie realize that maybe she's not Barbie anymore,
and maybe she wants to be where the people are
she wants to see, wants to see them dancing, okay.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
And then no, no, no, whole song please Okay, yeah,
what do you call them feet? And then we see
the Quentin Tarantina shot again. It's perfect, perfect.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
And then she becomes human and the movie ends in
Los Angeles with Gloria and Sasha dropping Barbie off at
a gynecologist appointment. Not how I would have ended, a
little bitter.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Essentialism there, but that's the movie. That's the movie. Wow,
thanks Caitlin. Yeah, so before we get started, because there

(30:13):
is some reference to Barbie history here, I'm putting my
weird hobby to use and I'm going to share a
little bit of Barbie history with you. So if we
could get up the Ruth Handler. Okay, so that's the
real Ruth Handler. She is a co founder of Mattel
and the creator of Barbie. She was like one of

(30:34):
the few women working in toys in the nineteen forties
as well as one of the only Jewish women working
in toys in the nineteen forties. And she co founded
Mattel with two other men, her husband Elliott, and a
guy named Matthew. And they made the name of the
company a combination of matt and Elliott. No Ruth to

(30:55):
be seen. They will pay because they died, so did
she in any case, I'm a Ruth fan. They originally
make a bunch of other toy products, and she keeps
pitching this idea of an adult fashioned doll with boobs,

(31:18):
and male executives are like, boobs on a doll, you're
a pervert, and so she's not allowed to make it
for years and years because boobs on a doll, you're
a pervert. Eventually she sees this German doll called bill
Lily that has boobs, and then the men are like,
all right, well, if one man thought it was a
good idea, I guess we could do it. So they

(31:41):
make Barbie. They name it after her daughter, Barbara, who's
in the next slide here. I believe, Yes, there's Barbara,
there's Barbie. She originally fucking hated Barbie's as is her right,
She's like, mother, how could you? But yeah, there's like
a few biographs details given about Ruth and the movie

(32:02):
that are all true, including I think she says I'm
a tiny woman with a double misseectomy and tax evation issues.
All of these are true. She was technically sentenced to
forty five years in prison. Jordan Belfoort vibe, I know
and like Jordan Belfort. She was a wealthy white person

(32:22):
and did not actually serve I think any time in prison.
She got community service, which is horseshit. And also she
defrauded rich people, so we were like, well, yeah, in
any case, she didn't go to jail, but she was
forced to resign from Mattel. And what she pivoted to
then is she had had a double misseectomy. She was
a two time breast cancer survivor and had spoken publicly

(32:46):
about having self esteem issues after the last of her breasts,
and so she invented a second really successful product that
was sort of a I don't know how to describe
this product correctly, but it was basically like fake boobs
that you could put on like a bra if you'd
had a missectomy. You could get it in one, you
could get into both whatever you needed. And that was
really successful as well. And yeah, she was, you know, scammer,

(33:11):
criminal who had two really successful intentions.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
From from Barbie to Brobbie.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
Don't encourage that. No, it was good.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
It was good, and some people liked it because I
stared at them.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
I was like, I think it's all because we can
see them. But yeah, there Barbie and Ken re named
after her kids, Barbara and Kenneth. They both hated the dolls. Uh.
They got a good settlement when they died anyways. Uh.
And then Ruth Ruth sort of that her sort of
end of life reflection was that her whole life had

(33:48):
revolved around titties and that hadn't been intentional. So she's
really cool. I'm glad that they included her in the movie,
and like referenced her is a corporate propaganda absolutely is,
but she was a cool lady. I was hoping because
one of the things that I understand was probably necessary

(34:09):
for the movie to be made, but I find really
annoying and poorly handled is the CEO character and the
CEO narrative. I wish that they had instead brought in
other figures from Barbie history, because there's so many interesting
people and I want to spotlight one right now. This
next slide is Kittie Black Perkins. She was the lead

(34:32):
designer of Barbie for twenty five years from the eighties
into the early two thousands. She's really cool. I feel
like she's really under discussed. She designed the first black Barbie.
She was yeah, and she was also the first black
Barbie designer at all and sort of was a huge

(34:55):
advocate for getting more diversity within the Mattal company to
I think I have a next slide of some of
her most famous creations. Yes, I definitely had that ball
on the right. She also did a really cool series
that I was too young to have encountered, but there.
It's called The Marvelous World of Shawnee and it was
the first Barbie collection that was entirely black women of

(35:18):
different skin tones and hair textures, and it was really
really cool, and she had this incredible impact on the company.
And I just wish that instead of a room full
of men, we had, you know, brought people like Katie
Black Perkins into the mix, because she is a really
important part of Barbie history and we don't really see
her or many prominent characters who are not white in

(35:40):
this movie. And so that's that brings us James Barbie
history section. Wow. Thank you, Wow. A round of a pause,
because it's like it's giving hostage situations. All right. I
think if you go to the next slide, I think
we're back in the dream house. Yeah, here we are.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yes, No, but you just touched on something that is
a big part of the discussion around this movie. So
the movie came out, people watched it, and I don't
know why I had to people.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Watch explain that and then and then what happened. But
then and then and then people had some thoughts about it.
But did they write them down?

Speaker 1 (36:20):
They did, and then they also said them out loud,
oh thank you, and a lot of a lot of
the criticism around this movie was it's feminism, one oh one,
it's it's white feminism the movie. We need a more
nuanced and intersectional approach to discussing feminism in media, and
that is very, very true. I don't disagree with that

(36:40):
at all, but I have mixed feelings about it because
the world, most of the people in it, I think,
still need a lesson, like a feminist one oh one lesson.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
I was just like, Okay, pretty cool that a enormous
blockbuster movie with a huge budget, huge studio backing, about
a very famous product tackled patriarchy and examined feminism. The
big problem with it, yes, is that it has like
sort of the facade of inclusion because of some of

(37:14):
the characters. But those characters are very much on the
periphery and it still centers the like epitome of like
Western beauty, standard whiteness, blonde hair, thinness, like all the stuff,
and it's peepee poo poos what I'm getting at.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, I think we feel pretty similarly about this. I
feel like it's having to hold a bunch of truths
at the same time, which, if you're having a discussion online,
is famously not possible. It's like, all of a sudden,
someone's threatening to kill you, you know, but no, no
one threatened to kill me over the Barbie movie because
I kept my mouth shutting. Wow, I minded my own business. No,

(38:01):
I think that. Yeah, I agree that. I think that
a lot of the as I was like, going back
through my knowledge of Barbie history, I feel like a
lot of the issues with the movie with inclusion are
the same issues that Barbie has with inclusion. Right where
there has been progress, there have been attempts, there has

(38:21):
been motion forward, and like the company has to some extent,
taken notes about I think most recently, there was a
discussion around ableism with Barbie's and there has been discussions
around race with Barbie. There's been discussions around body types
with Barbie, and it's slowly changed over time, but it
still always centers the thin, blonde, white woman, and I

(38:46):
think that that's also what this movie is doing. And
I'm thrilled that we have I think it's like I'm
thrilled that we have so many amazing barbies, and I'm
also frustrated that we don't get more of them, you know.
But in the same way, I think you're totally right.
The way that people have talked about this movie feels disingenuous,
in the same way that, like I was saying earlier
that people were like, this movie's a commercial. I was like, yeah,

(39:08):
not like Iron Man, which is an indie sleeper hit,
you know, Like just it just feels really disingenuous the
way people have approached the discussion where it's like I
need to find a righteous reason to hate this, right,
It's like you just don't like it, and that's okay,
Like not everyone has to. I also feel like the
reverse argument and a lot of the like we're not

(39:30):
going to get into the Oscars discourse because this episode
doesn't come out for a month and hopefully it will
be very dated. But like the way that you know,
like white feminists online will defend the most wealthy white
woman in the world against her will. You're just like,
what is this? Yeah, what am I looking at? But
in any case, I do, I do feel like it's

(39:53):
there are really valid criticisms to be made of this movie.
And also when we're talking about this movie as like
a blockbuster, which it is, the conversation is really pointedly different,
Like no one's having conversations like this around any other
blockbusterory that I can remember, which I think is cool.
It's different, But so there's also a lot of bullshit

(40:14):
to sift through.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
This is the fourteenth highest grossing movie of all time.
If you look at the thirteen above it and probably
the one hundred below it, Like none of those movies
even acknowledge sexism or patriarchy or any of those things.
They probably all or most of them have a male protagonist,

(40:35):
Like they're not. Most of them are directed and written
by men as well. They're not having the same conversation
this movie is doing. And as we always say, it's
not any one movie's responsibility to like change the world
or be the be all end all thing when it
comes to discussing feminism. But the movie it missed many
opportunities to be more inclusive, to have more meaningful inclusion,

(40:58):
because again, you know, there's a Barbie played by a transactor,
hard enough. There is a fat Barbie played by Sharon Rooney.
There is a disabled Barbie who uses a wheelchair. She's
played by Grace Harvey.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
But we don't get to know her at all. She
has no lines. Really, I think that like we don't
get to really know the Barbies. We get to meet
a lot of them, but outside of Marco, Robbie Barbie
and Weird Barbie, you don't really get a distinct personality
for anybody, which is not true of the Kens. And
that is like my big issue with this movie. And

(41:33):
I really really like this movie. Like if we're just
going like Romp, can I watch it? Yes, yes, a
million times?

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Tend out a tent on Caitlin's Rambo either it's the best.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
But yeah, when it comes to like, well, who has
most of the funny moments and who and which group
has the more distinctive personalities and things to do, it's
the Ken's by a mile. Like I am never not
going to be frustrated that the Barbies don't get their
own song, like the Ken's get this, and like I'm
just ken in my opinion, fucking rips. It's so good

(42:10):
it does. It was all my Spotify rapped and that's
so embarrassing, and and was it number one? I don't know,
but like that was so cool. And they got this
big studio like old school ballet move they got it,
like all this stuff, and meanwhile, Barbie is crying somewhere
and we're just like this fucking sucks. I read somewhere

(42:32):
that there was an original Uh there was a Barbie. Uh.
I don't know if it was a song because Marco
Robbie I don't think sings, but there was originally. I
only saw it written as like there was originally a
fart opera? What what words did you say? I don't
know if it was shot, but I was reading a

(42:53):
lot of I listened to the director's commentary for this movie,
Thank you, Yeah I did. I didn't learn very much
the two things. It was mostly Greta GIRWGG being like, yeah,
so then this happens. I'm like I could just watch
the movie, but no. Greta Gerwy said there was originally
a fart opera that she was planning for the Barbies

(43:16):
because they were like Discovery. I don't know if it
was in the real world or Barbie world, but they
figure out what farts are and then there's a Barbie
fart opera. Okay, So then I guess that she was
like and no one thought that was funny, so they
didn't end up in the movie. I'm like, I don't
know how I feel about that. I guess I would have,
you know, either way, the Barbies don't get a big number, yeah,
and the kNs do.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
And I was gonna say, fart opera, what is this
a Shrek movie?

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (43:43):
There.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
The other thing I learned from the Greta Gerwig commentary
that I really loved was that, you know, like there's
a moment where, uh, usually it's dual lipa Mermaid, but
then suddenly it's John Cena Mermaid. I don't think Greta
Gerwig knows who John Cena is because he comes on
screen and she goes, oh, John Senna, and she said

(44:08):
John Senna came in for the day, and that was
so lovely. I had such a great time directing John Senna,
and I was like, wow, it has not reached her.
But I'm just like, yeah, I guess, like in the
Gerwig bomb boc Households. Has anyone ever been like, let's
turn on WWE, I don't know it missed her? I really,

(44:28):
oh John Senna, no one ever tell her.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
They haven't watched Fast and the Furious eight and above
which one did see your peer in for the first time?

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Nine? Oh wow, some people being ready.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
This is kind of you know, never underestimate your audience
if it's not Hobs and Shaw. I don't care, but yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Think like one of my big criticisms of the movie
is that the bar don't get to have as much
fun as they can see.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, for sure, and again, like all of the emotional
labor that Barbie is doing with Ken at the end,
and there is a point where Barbie is just less
active as a character in the back half of the movie,
but Gloria and Sasha sort of take over as the
more active female characters at.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Least and weird Barbie, I feel like the three of
them when when which Yeah, I didn't know how to
feel about that, but I'm like, oh, when I've been
having a depressive episode and three friends are like, all right,
we're gonna We're gonna make sure that they don't shut
your power off. You know it is nice. Yeah, but yeah,
so she's really really active for the for the front

(45:40):
half of the movie, but once she hits that wall,
not as much, but she comes back at the end,
she rallies.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
She does come back and at the end of the day,
it is a movie about like a woman having a
self discovery.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
It's literally it's a she's a woman on the verge
of a nervous breakdown. Yeah. Wow, And I here's my
other little thing. Okay, I think we should talk about
Gloria and Sasha because I think their dynamic is under
explored but also interesting. Sasha specifically, I feel like it's
very Okay, here's my Stanley Kubrick. I think I'll tell you. Okay,

(46:13):
I know I have a master's degreen screenwriting.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
I would.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
What I would never bring it up. Try me, Okay,
Sasha's story can be boiled down to how I learned
to stop worrying and love the MATEL Corporation that is
Stanley kruperg gets okay, yes, because it's I think that
it's a really interesting dynamic between the mother and daughter.
It's frustratingly only like I think, well done. For about

(46:43):
ten minutes towards the end of the movie where when
Barbie gets depressed, you know, Sasha and Gloria. I just
want to keep saying America Ferarra, Sasha defends her mother
when Barbie is like you're useless or whatever the fuck
she says, and I liked that. I don't really know
what their conflict is. I feel like it's just sort

(47:04):
of pulling from like if you've been a teenage femme,
it's probably a dynamic you've had with your mom, and
so you're just it's just stop. I don't like the
movie Tantanic. I like naval history. Up. I'm a bar Storian.

(47:24):
I'm not horny. Stop up. That's kind of their Yeah,
But I really like those moments between them where they're
like learning to understand each other. She has to admit
that her mom is cool, and then they go back,
but they do mostly exist in relation to Barbie as

(47:45):
like Barbie's assistant. And then America Ferra develops the Weapon
of mass Destruction, which is her speech.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
And I don't even have the energy to really go
into the speech and how it is like not very good,
but go back and listen to it.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
It's like, here's what I'll say about this fee, I
feel like the speech is I don't know. I don't
hate the speech. I was well performed. It was well performed.
The words, however, I would have rewritten it. I didn't
mind the words. I feel like there was a lot missing,
which like the big thing that for this movie in general,
I feel like it attempts to address patriarchy in certain ways,

(48:24):
but patriarchy is just like one element of the evils
of the world. Like we see this movie attempt to
address patriarchy while not addressing either white supremacy or capitalism,
which are the main things that intersect with it. So
I feel like the moments in this movie that feel
hollow is because those two other things are being very

(48:45):
pointedly ignored, because if you're addressing white supremacy, then you
can't have mostly white leading characters, and if you address capitalism,
you can't have the Barbie movie. And so it feels
weirdly like I I appreciate elements of the like attempt
to boil patriarchy down to a simple and effective speech,

(49:07):
and it's like, I don't know, I could take her
leave parts of it. But I also I saw this
movie in theaters a couple of times, and there was
always someone bawling their eyes out, and so I was like,
I'm not going to take that from people like I.
You know, the moms were really in their bag with that.
My mom was My mom was sobbing. My mom was
sobbing during that, and I was like, Okay, that's enough.

(49:30):
And then you're embarrassing me in the movie. And then
at the end, I don't think I've told you this.
And then at the end there's another attempted profound movement moment.
The speech worked on my mom. The second profound moment,
she was mad. It was at the end when Rhea

(49:50):
Perlman says we mothers stand still, so are we can
stand back and see how my mom was like, I
would never stand still. I was, It's like, that's true.
I've certainly never seen you stand still, even when I've
specifically requested it. And she's like, I think that's so regressive.

(50:14):
You should say that on bechdelcast, which I agree with.
I think that that line genuinely sucks. The speech was
a hit or miss for me. I appreciate that it
resonated for people. Did it need to be published in
the newspaper? No, that's so goofy and embarrassing. And I
don't know. So many things that are embarrassing to me
about this movie involved the reaction to it versus like

(50:36):
what I'm actually watching. I don't know. Yes, I feel like, okay,
this is super super picky. But the America Freire speech,
for some reason, I feels like fifteen percent. It goes
like fifteen percent longer than you expect it to, and
I kind of want her to, like I feel like
there's a good sketch in like her pausing and then
continuing and being like, you can play one video game,

(50:57):
but you can't play two video games. You can you
can go to CVS, but you don't have an extra
care card. Like it's just like because it's like such
a you get like in that cadence, you can say
fucking whatever, and my mom would be weeping, Like you

(51:18):
can go to McDonald's, but you can't get a happy
meal because you're a grown up and no one respects you.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Wow, it's so true.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
It's so true. No, it's not true. You can get
a happy mind do it?

Speaker 1 (51:34):
No?

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Well, anyway, okay, so uh talk about oh hi, hello,
someone's getting parasocial in the friend, you saw, you saw
an opportunity and you see stick. Yes, I did notice that.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
I think Gloria's name is only spoken one in the
whole movie, and it's in passing. Yeah, yeah, so the
whole I was like, what is her character's name? Because
I missed it every single time I all, like four
or five times I've watched this movie.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah it's fair. I mean I feel like that also
speaks to like how even though Gloria and Sasha are
prominent characters, you don't actually know that much about them,
and a lot of what you know about them is
just based on what you understand about parent child dynamics,
Like so much is not actually there. It's just like
relying on what you may have experienced to like sort

(52:34):
of fill in the gaps of what might be there.
I do love her due lingo husband and that's America,
Oh my god. And that's America Prayer's real husband. Yeah, yes, yeah,
his name is whatever, who cares? I did write it down.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
But you would never support a man, So it's just
dad exactly. Also when he says which has to be
a reference to God to kick out? Yes, absolutely, Well,
while we're talking about our favorite jokes, when Will Ferrell
CEO is like if humans went to barbie Land, or
if Barbies came into the real world, things would happen

(53:16):
beyond what your wildest dreams could ever imagine. And then
Jamie Jamie Demetrio, best person alive. I love him so much.
If he's listening, marry me. Stath LEDs Flats is the
best show ever anyone's seen, it.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Said the single wo Meanwhile, forty percent of this audience
is seen every Fast and the Furious. Just collecting data.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Anyway, Jamie Demetrio hot, He replies to like, oh, what
could we possibly imagine? And he says, a podcast hosted
by two wise trees.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Podcast?

Speaker 1 (53:53):
What is the Bechtel Cast podcast? But a podcast hosted
by two wise trees? If you were a tree, Jamie,
what tree would you be?

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Oh? I don't know tree kind.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
I'll tell you all of them.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Okay, we got willows, we got a oaky, we got
birch palm m hm. Oh you're roun elm whoa apple tree?
Don't help her anyway? Oky orange. Okay, really quick, while

(54:35):
we're on the subjects of the CEO, because we referenced
this earlier, but I really think like and again, I
fully understand that this movie was signed off by Mattel,
so of course I'm sure they had a million notes.
I'd be really curious in the future. I just would
love to have more oral histories of studio notes in general,

(54:55):
because I think a lot of the time the writers
and directors absorb a lot of criticism becau because it's
their name there. But there's a million shadowy figures that
influence what ends up there. And I like when anytime
I've written an episode of TV, like there's been a
whole scene that you're like, weird, what is that? And
yet I wrote it. You know, it's just like there

(55:16):
are so many people involved. So I would be curious
how the CEO character evolved because I think that casting
Will Ferrell feels really intentional there, right, because yeh, if
you're doing a CEO as a villain, you don't cast
Will Ferrell. If you cast Will Ferrell, it's because you
want him to seem kind of like, oh, well, he's
not doing the right thing, but he's kind of hapless
and he's kind of like whatever, Like he'll figure out

(55:38):
a goofball. He's a goofball. And I think that that
is a really pernicious way to frame corporate America.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Well, so didn't he play basically the same exact character
in the Lego movie.

Speaker 5 (55:50):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Yes, in the Greta Gerwick commentary spoiler alert, she did
say something helpful. Okay, she when he first comes on screen,
and she says the CEO character, he's not evil. He's
like a really enthusiastic golden retriever. He really believes that
sparkles lead to female empowerment and he's just gonna stick
with that. And I hate that. I hate that so much.

(56:13):
I think that there is like attempted commentary within there.
And I am like to give this movie as much
credit like as I can. It says more and jabs
at more than you would expect it to, where it's
like they do reference, like we have not had many
female executives really ever, and there are like a number
of jokes to that effect. But also it just sort

(56:36):
of makes the capitalism element feel like goofy and harmless
while we're attacking patriarchy and white supremacy we don't talk
about and so it's just like all I mean, I know,
and one movie cannot do everything. But because this movie
is so honed in on patriarchy. The way it treats
other elements feels kind of dissonant and weird. But it's

(56:58):
also like, if it didn't treat it that way, would
the movie exist. I don't know, because something something comes.
I mean, that's the.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Thing about presenting a like anti patriarchy argument in a
movie packaged in this very like pink, hyper feminine Barbie package.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
I mean it makes it.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Does it make it very palatable and fun? Yes, But
again it it just ends up ignoring a lot of
things and creating cognitive dissonance.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
But I do like how hyperfeminine, like hyperfeminine aesthetics are
like inherent to this world, and I like, I really
do like that, and I like, I feel like the
pictures you see of people who go to see the
movie reflect that, where it's like permission to be hyper feminine.
And that was like one of the elements of Stereotypical
Barbie that I really liked, where you're presented stereotypical Barbie

(57:54):
along with all of your assumptions about her, which is
criticisms that have haunted Barbie, some rightful, some were projected
over the course of over half a century, where like
she is brainless, she's a bimbo. She's not smart, and
like associating hyper femininity with not being smart, and it

(58:14):
seems like stereotypical Barbie has like inferred this about herself
because she's always like, well, I'm not one of the
job Barbie's, so they should probably figure it out. And
she is this hyper feminine Barbie and then over time
she figures out like I am smart, I am capable
of growth. And I really liked that, is like having
a hyper feminine character who is smart and not playing

(58:38):
into the tropes that we're used to seeing, because I
feel like it truly is like there's a lot of
times where you see a woman in pink and you're
trained to think like bimbo, not smart, not going to
contribute very much, and that's silly even though pink's not
really my color. Wow, could have fooled me. Well.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
I feel like we had a very similar discussion on
the Legally Blonde episode.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Yeah, absolutely, I also had Ellwood's Barbie.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
What that's the thing too, is Barbie just like Lego,
where every property that exists is Lego, and also everything
in person is also Barbie Barbie.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
I feel like, does a weirder job of it, where
it's like things that you're like, oh, that's awesome, and
then you're like why Rosie o'donald, like why cheese? Recently,
I think she'll be she'll be at my house. I
recently got Ida b Wells Barbie, like they make historical
women barbies too. I have Sally Ryde Barbie. We're adding

(59:37):
Ida to the mix, you know, running out of the
shelf space. I just have too many. I don't know whatever.
I've never heard of John Sanna. Oh my gosh, we've
never We have yet to talk about the DJ College situation.
I don't know what he's in the movie. Is he
a ken? No, he's selling the kens? Oh my god.

(01:00:00):
Oh guys. I almost backed off because I was like, wait,
it's DJ College. Another one the guy who's like this,
he's in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
The guy's like these mojo dojo castles off the shelves,
you guys, and also a celebrity who famously hates eating pussy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
They're just like, a, this is all we could ride
a fucking dissertation on this. Oh my god. I'm like,
my I I just had a surge of adrenaline. But
I was like I know who DJ coll It is. There. Yeah,
they he had a he had a cameo, and I
also love that during that Greta Gerwig absolutely does not
know who he is because she she was silent through

(01:00:44):
that whole scene and then started talking.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
A few other fun cameos though, Annie Mamelo has a
little cameo. We've got Emerald fanel Is Midge. Okay, where
are the closest? Burn will come to the Oscars. Also,
the woman at the bus stop is legendary costume designer

(01:01:09):
and Roth she's designing Cowboy. Yes, she did Midnight Cowboy,
Cold Mountain, Mama Mia okay, and then one Oscars for
English Patient and Ma Rainey's Black Bottom Bottom?

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Are you right bottom down? Twice?

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
No, but I said the first bottom as though there
was more to that title, and there isn't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
You're doing We're doing great, We're doing ground and it's
the Ludese. I'm telling you Hi again.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Barbie's it's future Barbie Caitlin and future Barbie Jamie.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Wow, we're basically the astronaut barbiees. I know that astronauts
don't time travel, but I in my mind they kind
of basically do.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Yeah, have you ever seen Interstellar. I mean it's kind
of like that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Have I ever seen interest on it? Have we ever
covered it on the show? No? So no, I haven't
seen it. Uh huh. Anyways, Welcome to the Future. Yeah,
So this was the point in the show where I
just want to share with you that we would do
our fun like we did a live game where we
had Barbies from the Barbie Movie and we would do

(01:02:24):
kind of just a series of immaculately improvised scenarios.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Oh, such good improv.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
We brought up some audience members to do it with us,
and they were just as good at improv as we were,
and sometimes better because we're pretty mid at it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Wow, can't believe you said that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
We were also set it on stage. But it was
a blast. So but you know, obviously that doesn't quite
translate to audios. So in lieu of that, you the
listener listening for free will be deprived of fun and
subjected to further discourse because, of course, in the live show,
you know, time is limited, so we didn't get to

(01:03:06):
quite everything that we wanted to.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
So, and that's why you should come to the live
shows when we do have them, because there are segments
that we tend to cut out when we release the
actual episode on our feed because either they just don't
translate very well to the audio medium, or we just
want to give our audience, our attendees to the live
shows a little special treats. So it's all the more

(01:03:31):
reason to come to our live shows when you can.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
The shows are fun. Yeah, I just wanted to start
by I know that we had a section in the
live show where we talked about Ruth Handler and sort
of the history of Barbie as well as Kitty Black Perkins.
I just wanted to add a few extra things that
we didn't have time to talk about in the show,
just because I thought it was interesting that also connects
to the idea of mothers and motherhood within the context

(01:03:59):
of this movie. Because I and I know that we're
like not supposed to do this, so please don't yell
at me. I bravely read a book, Jamie. How could you?
I know? But I really, I mean, I genuinely really
am interested in dull history. I really am. And so

(01:04:20):
I got this book from the library. And if you
are not a subscriber, not a subscriber to the library,
but like, how if you have a library card. You're
able to access free books and movies through your library card.
So I borrowed the book Barbie and Ruth, The Story
of the World's most Famous Doll and the Woman who

(01:04:40):
created Her by Robin Gerber, just to sort of bolster
my knowledge about what the actual story of Barbie is
because understandably in the movie, and this isn't even a criticism,
like the movie is not about the history of Barbie.
I think the fact that Ruth Handler is even included
was more than I was expecting, honestly true. But I
think that what we didn't get the chance to talk

(01:05:01):
about in the live show was how she is presented
as a god figure and also a maternal god figure,
because she is presented to us like and it's like
not hidden at all, that like she is basically the
god to Barbie's Jesus. Sure, and that, as we'll talk
about in a little bit, like is explicitly stated by

(01:05:23):
Greta Gerberg, is like she know bomb Back, knew that
they were doing it. I think that that's a really
weird but like pretty interesting thing to include in your
Barbie movie. Yeah, but the real life Ruth Handler, what
I think I think it just sort of speaks to
how we project, not just I mean the real life
Ruth Handler was a mother to Barbara aka Barbie. But

(01:05:48):
I think that, like we've talked about in a lot
of movies, that like it has to do with this
sort of sis woman divine prophecy where not only will
you be a mother, but you will mothers are inherently
good and mothers are you know, inherently good at being
mothers when that is often not true and also a

(01:06:11):
ridiculous expectation because it is not a divine prophecy, you're
a person. And I think that that is very well
demonstrated in real life Ruth Handler's life, who had consistently
a very very contentious relationship with specifically her daughter, but
both of her children, and I think you know, by

(01:06:32):
many accounts, she was an incredible businesswoman. She had a
lot of growth throughout her life where she did not
consider herself to be a feminist and in fact like
avoided friendships with women for much of her life. And
it wasn't until her later years, when she was making
prosthetic breasts for breast cancer survivors, that she really felt

(01:06:55):
connected to women and to just even the concept of feminism,
and you know, had a period of her life where
she was reflecting and like reading feminist theory and being like, wait,
have men been awful to me most of my life?
And you know, yes, And to the point where something
that really made me laugh was that this doesn't exist

(01:07:17):
in the sort of more overarching histories. But when she
finally when she started her company that was just hers.
Her husband wasn't you know involved in her company for
the prosthetic breast was called Ruth ten And so she
finally got her name in the company my girl boss hero.
But in any case, she had a very difficult relationship

(01:07:40):
with her children and was not quote unquote the natural
mother that we see presented, who is inherently, you know,
like just knows exactly what to do. And I just
thought that that was worth mentioning, even in the context
because of how she's presented where and they are willing
to you know, sort of cop to. Maybe it's not

(01:08:01):
the best phrase, I but like cop to certain like
flaws that were public, such as being sentenced to a
forty five year prison sentence and having had anseectomy, but
still feel the need to be like, but shit, at
the end of the day she's a mother, when in
fact that was like a part of Freeth Handler's life
that was very challenging.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Also, and we mentioned this in the live show too,
but the line where the Ruth Handler character at the
end of the movie says something like we mothers stand
still so our daughters can see how far they've come
or whatever the line is, and how it just rubbed
a lot of people the wrong way.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Yeah, I think like that again, it just like applies
this prescriptive role of like deference and yeah, humbleness.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
And becoming a mother means that you surrender other parts
of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
And stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
The other the thing that I found interesting about Ruth
Handler's like journey with feminism is that, from my understanding,
she created Barbie, or she at least viewed Barbie as
an alternative to baby dolls, something that was like aspirational,
something that would help girls or whoever was playing with them.

(01:09:19):
And that's a separate issue I have with this movie
where it feels it's very much like, well, the only
people who play with dolls are girls. But anyway, that's
a I'll get to that later. But anyway, she viewed
Barbie dolls as an aspirational way to help girls envision
their lives outside of being a mother, which, of course,

(01:09:40):
you know, that was the expectation that was foisted onto
women at the time Barbie was created, and Barbie dolls
were an opportunity to allow girls to see that they
could grow up and have a career and they didn't
necessarily have to adhere to that kind of rigid societal expectation,

(01:10:02):
which was a pretty radical idea at that time, right,
So I appreciate that about Barbie dolls and about like
Ruth Handler's vision for them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
I did too, and I feel like, you know, the
way that I even though like when I was a kid,
I forget if I mentioned it in this, but but yeah,
that I had like a moment where, you know, I
loved playing with Barbies and then felt self conscious about
enjoying it, and then realized that it is in fact
quite stressful to have an aspirational doll, even though you

(01:10:36):
are projecting your hopes and desires through them in a
way that feels very fun and dynamic and cool in
the way that just being a kid is. The body
stuff does get to you over time, and certainly I
wrote a strongly worded letter to Mattel being like, listen up, boys,
my boobs are not going to come in, I've recently realized,

(01:10:57):
and like, but just truly like the very you know,
entrenched white Western beauty standards that Barbie's been rightfully criticized
over a period of years. We talked about this during
the show, but that I didn't really understand, and I
think that that is sort of a testament to the
power of Barbie two, that I didn't really know as
a kid that dolls were not aspirational, and like, I

(01:11:21):
never had any interest in baby dolls, and so I think,
like it's almost this like cool, frustrating, but new problem
to deconstruct, Well, what does the aspirational doll say about
what I should be aspiring to? But the fact that
that didn't exist, that problem didn't exist before because you

(01:11:41):
were not supposed to aspire to anything, and like, wow, right,
I also just wanted to touch on really quick because
it's Ken history. Yes, Ruth Handler's the Handlers. Elliot and
Ruth had two children, Barbara and Kenneth, Barbie and Ken
and Ken. I feel like he is not I mean

(01:12:03):
just says in the world of the Barbie movie under discussed,
under examined in real life as well. Ken Handler seemed
like a truly wonderful person who so who eventually unfortunately
he passed away of AIDS fairly young. I think it
was in his forties, in the late eighties, early nineties,

(01:12:25):
And so there is sort of this whole. I mean,
both children, Barbara and Kenneth different than the dolls, I think,
appreciated what their parents were trying to do, but resented
how it sort of haunted them right where Ken was
teased at school for being like, do you just have
a lump? You know, goofy shit like that, But if

(01:12:47):
you're a kid, that's humiliating and it feels horrible. And Barbara, interestingly,
her issue with her mom that she reflected on later
was that she resented her mom for having a career
because it meant like, quote unquote, her mom was different,
which of course is entrenched in privilege the reasons that

(01:13:08):
that is. But it was interesting just sort of reading
how she reflected on that later on, where she was like,
I resented my mom because I didn't really understand how
radical it was that she was working, Like I didn't
see any moms that were working and so I assumed
she was the problem when that wasn't the case. Oh.
She also said of her brother Ken, and I think

(01:13:31):
this was prior to his death, so it was just
like good natured ripping. But she said, my brother is
eccentric and he thinks my mother is God. And I
was like, I want a son like that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
But in any case, I feel like you do have
two cat sons like that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
I do. They're both eccentric and they think I'm God.
And I'm not going to challenge that characteristic. But yeah,
Ken was. I mean, he was a young gay man
in the sixties and so it was not socially acceptable
for him to be out. He was married to a
woman for most of his life. He had some show

(01:14:10):
business aspirations that so because he you know, like the
kids they all grew up in LA they're kind of
like Hollywood babies. And Ken went on to direct two movies,
one of which I've seen called Delivery Boys about.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
Hey, and this is coming sounds like me in my
hooter's career.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
It is a very like dancy, somewhat home eerotic movie.
I quite enjoyed it. The plot is all over the place,
like you're like, I think they are just like dancing
and delivery. But it's a nineteen eighty four film directed
by Ken Handler about a multi ethnic group of pizza
delivery boys who started a break dancing team. And having

(01:14:56):
seen the movie, I can tell you that's exactly what
it's about and nothing else. But he you know, he
is most famously known as the namesake of the Kendall
but he also was a very creative person and had
a lot of output of his own. So in any case,
he did not come out to his family, I believe
his mother, father, and sister until he had already tested

(01:15:20):
positive for HIV, to the extent that he and his
wife was already aware at this point, And so Ken
and his wife Susie, and a doctor went to the
home to explain not only what his diagnosis was, but
what it was at all, because of how naive and

(01:15:44):
how I mean, I think it really just speaks to
how under educated the general public was about about issues
surrounding HIV and AIDS. And so he passed away in
nineteen ninety four. He was only fifty years old, and
at the time his parents announced that he had died

(01:16:04):
of a brain tumor. And so I mean, I cannot
say with any level of certainty what the intention behind
that was, whether it was a denial that they had
a queer son, or if they thought they were, you know,
in this very antiquated way, thought they were acting in
his best interest. I don't know. They didn't speak about

(01:16:26):
it extensively, but I just feel like there Ken had
a really tragically short but really interesting life, and within
the queer community, was really well loved and had a
lot of friends and a lot of creative pursuits and
stuff like that. And he didn't like Ken Dolls, and Barbie, well,

(01:16:49):
she didn't like Barbie Dolls. And so I guess if
you invent something, don't name it after your kids, they
will hate you. But that's the additional context they wanted
to share.

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):
Thank you for that, And I guess the other things
that I had about the movie that we didn't have
time for in the live shows, a lot of them
were things that I found frustrating about the movie. A
few specific things are A pretty big component of Barbie's character,

(01:17:24):
in addition to the fact that she's crying for most
of the second half of the movie, is that she
has a strong fixation on her own appearance and of
course Barbie is a product of her environment, so it
makes sense that she's hyper focused on her image because

(01:17:48):
so much of the Barbie brand and lore is about
what she looks like, how she's designed, that she's quote
unquote perfect, all of that kind of stuff. But this
manifests in the movie in a way that I feel
like is not really thoughtfully commented on. There is that

(01:18:10):
moment where Sasha is saying, like, you made girls feel
horrible about themselves, and you're a fascist, But.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
It's kind of like she's presented as ultimately being wrong
because and I think it's also like I get it's
it's tricky because I feel tempted to defend the movie
where it's like, well, you know, it's like part of it,
but like couching it in jokes sometimes is really tricky
because it's like, in one situation there something is if

(01:18:39):
not a thousand percent true, worth discussing, and then the
other thing, that Barbie is a fascist is objectively not true,
and so it's all sort of cast in this same
sort of like, well, none of this is true, and
you're like, well, let's get back to the body image thing,
because I think there is some truth to what Sasha
is saying that a lot of the criticisms of Barbie

(01:19:00):
have come up over the years are sometimes coming from
a place of just like how dare a woman exist?
And then there also is genuinely, as we talked about
in the live show, a history of because this is
quote unquote the aspirational doll. You're being handed this white, thin, blonde,

(01:19:21):
large breasted, anatomically impossible doll and told this is what
you should be aspiring to. So that's a far more
complicated thing to deal with, and I mean, yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
And then again, the way this all plays out in
the movie for Barbie's character is that, like, the thing
that finally motivates Barbie to be willing to take this
journey into the real world and fix this rift that's
been created is weird Barbie saying like, if you don't
do this, you're going to keep getting more cellulate, And

(01:19:53):
Barbie's like, oh my god, that's the worst imaginable thing.
I could never have that. So that's what motivates her
to go on the quest. Toward the end of the movie,
after you know, Ken has taken over and ruined barbie Land. Yeah,
one of the big things that Barbie is upset about
is that she's not pretty anymore and that she's worried

(01:20:14):
that Ken doesn't like her anymore. She also says things
like I don't think I'm smart or interesting, But because
she's already been so focused on her appearance, it feels
like that's kind of the bigger takeaway from that moment.

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
And also the added in like Margaret Robbie is the
wrong person if you want to like blah blah blah,
which is a very funny joke, but yeah, I think that, Yeah,
it's like something that I like, we were talking about, Like,
I think that this does, in a really kind of
pernicious way, tie into this movie's fundamental inability to talk

(01:20:52):
about capitalism in a meaningful way because you can't talk
too much about the body stuff without being overly of Barbie,
who is bankrolling the movie. And I felt frustrated by
the cellulate joke. Again, it just felt like kind of
dated too, because it's not like there are not you know,
we have a fat Barbie. We have at least some body.

(01:21:15):
Diversity within the Barbie is not, you know, arguably not enough,
but there it does exist. And I was like, Okay,
I guess if you're like five D chessing it like, no,
Barbie has cellulite because they're all hard plastic. But you know,
the inherent message in there, it still felt like, yeah,
it was still pretty focused on looks.

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
Well because this whole thing, like it kind of just
boils down to yes, stereotypical. Barbie is known for being this,
you know, like ideal beauty standard. So it makes sense
that she would value that about herself, because when a
certain trait is valued by society, you tend to value

(01:21:54):
that about yourself or your condition to value that about yourself. However,
I feel like there was a big opportunity for Barbie
to learn that that's not a trait that she should
place so much emphasis on, or that she, you know,
should be expected to be valued by others about herself

(01:22:15):
based only on her appearance, and that she, you know,
should discover other qualities about herself. But the movie doesn't
fully get there. You know, there's a little bit at
the end when she is talking to the Ruth Handler
character about becoming human and wanting to be someone who
makes and creates ideas and contributes to society, but that

(01:22:37):
doesn't really feel super earned to me because everything we've
just saying learned about her thus far, A lot of
what we learned about her thus far is like her
placing so much emphasis on her appearance and like being
very fixated on that. And I feel like if that
arc had just been more like thoroughly explored, I feel

(01:22:57):
like I could have easily gotten there. But I don't know,
it just it didn't quite work for me.

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
I agree, but like to a slightly turned down extent,
I guess I think that the body issue is unexplored
in a way that I don't know, like it was disappointing.
And also because it is the Barbie movie, I was
not surprised that those kind of flaws were present because

(01:23:25):
this I don't think that this movie is handled to
truly meaningfully critique the product of Barbie, and because so
much of the critique around Barbie surrounds body issues, I
wasn't surprised that this movie doesn't crack that wide open,
because it's not a movie by its very existence that
would be able to But I don't know. I mean,

(01:23:47):
there's been so much talk about, like, well, what if
there's a Barbie two. First of all, just let the
movie be the movie. And also I think that, like,
were there a Barbi two, I would hope that, like,
if the focus on the first Barbie movie is on
tackling these stereotypes associated with Barbie, then it's like, and

(01:24:08):
let's move on, and let's focus on the Barbies that,
like we were talking about during the live show, are
present but not story present and deserve actual storylines. And
so I guess that that is what my hope would be.
I guess I wasn't super put off by it because
I didn't really expect more from the Barbie movie in

(01:24:30):
that regard, but like, I guess that transitions a little
bit into something that I was thinking. I mean, because
I think that by the nature of our jobs, we
I mean, I was even when I was seeing this
movie for fun, I was thinking about it from a
Bechdel cast lens, because what the movie is talking about
makes it kind of hard to not, you know, put

(01:24:51):
it on. Some movies are so just like Smooth Brain
that you're like, I'm just having fun. But like, it
was hard to not immediately, you know, because the movie
is trying to to interrogate however overly essentialist as we're
going to talk about and mentioned it in the live show,
but interrogate binary gender stereotypes as they pertain to Barbie.

(01:25:11):
I think that I got so honed in on that,
which is not a fault on my part. I mean,
the movie's asking you to do that, but I wasn't
thinking about alternate readings of the movie, and so I
wanted to just mention two that did not occur to me,
but I thought we're interesting to read more about. One

(01:25:32):
of them was the Ruth Handler is God Barbie's Jesus,
where Greta Gerwig has said at a number of points
in the press tour for this movie, yeah, that she
basically compares this to a reverse Adam and Eve situation.
She says in a Vogue interview from last May quote,

(01:25:52):
Barbie was invented first, Ken was invented after Barbie to
burnish Barbie's position in our eyes and in the world.
That kind of created myth is the opposite of the
creation myth in Genesis, and so I feel like it
kind of with that weird kind of biblical lens, some
of the creative choices make a little more sense to me,

(01:26:13):
but don't necessarily work like I feel like it's if
you're having to have these two things be true at
the same time it's and be a corporate movie. It's
basically impossible. But there were some choices that I didn't
like from a gendered perspective, Like we talked about during
the episode, the end scene with Barbie and Ken, where
she apologized to him, he doesn't apologize to her. I

(01:26:35):
think that, like, once I read the biblical interpretation of it,
that scene made more sense to me. But from the
gendered place, which is how it's basically presented to us,
it didn't work for me as much so, but I
did think it was interesting that that read is very
valid and at least somewhat intentional.

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
Sure, either way, I'm still going to be frustrated by
all of that emotional labor that Barbie is doing, all
of the apologizing that she's doing and receiving none in return.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
Yeah, all I was saying was that that read works
for the biblical thing, but it's also like, that's a
biblical thing. Do I want to give that read deference?
Not really the other reading I wanted to reference because
I saw it a couple of times. There's a number
of pieces written about it, just about Barbie, and when

(01:27:29):
I say Barbie, I mean, Margo Robbie Barbie as an
asexual icon. Of course, she is not openly ace within
the movie, but either been a number of I think
really well written and thought out pieces that argue that
she is ace coded, including interviews that Marco Robbie has given.

(01:27:50):
In that same Vogue press tour, Robbie was asked, she's
my friend. Mago was asked if the character of Barbie
had sexual desire, and margat Robbie said no, I don't
think she could. She is sexualized, but I never thought
she should be sexy. People project sex onto her. Yes,

(01:28:11):
she could wear a short skirt, but because it's fun
and pink, not because she wanted you to see her butt.
So this is I'm pulling this argument from a salon
piece by Kelly Pow that came out last summer aka
The Season of Barbie think Pieces, But Kelly Powell essentially
makes the argument that while it is not a stated

(01:28:35):
choice with the character that Barbie's interests like, she openly
has no desire for a relationship. But basically what this
piece is describing that I feel like is often lost
in the discourse around as characters and ace people, of
which there are already so few in terms of characters.

(01:28:56):
Is that being a sexual does not preclude you from
rape culture, and that Barbie's character in this movie is
an interesting example of that that while she does not
desire a sexual relationship, she is still constantly piled on
by the rape culture that exists, by how people perceive her.

(01:29:19):
So I thought that was another, you know, interesting of
the thing, because it just felt like, I mean, the
discourse around this movie was just so much that it
wasn't even as if these two reads were like not
able to be found, but there was just so much
that I just wanted to say, hey, check this out.

(01:29:40):
I thought it was interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
Yeah, I like that read, And I appreciate about this
movie that she doesn't end up with Ken and that
this romantic relationship isn't foisted on her when she clearly
is not interested in it. And after all that Ken
had done to ruined Barbieland so I thought that was

(01:30:02):
a really interesting and brave choice.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
Yeah. Again, just like something you never see in blockbusters
is I think even in Blockbusters, if you have a
lead character who's a woman or a fem that, even
if they are very self motivated, they're movie the plot
alogue like, it's they're a great character. There still is
generally like and here's their partner. And and again, obviously

(01:30:29):
we've talked about it on the show a million times,
not that that is lessening desire, but but it's just
very rare to see a protagonist who it's just like,
here's a hyper feminine protagonist, and we're not going to
force her to end up with someone like. I can't
think of a popular example of that. That isn't a
child like that isn't like a movie for children.

Speaker 1 (01:30:52):
It's it's very rare, and especially when the like the
source material is bar B plus ken like, you would
expect that to be how the movie ends up. But
I'm really glad that that wasn't the case. Agree, although
there is something at the end that I did find

(01:31:13):
very frustrating. We touched on this in the live show,
but I think it deserves more attention, which is that
when Barbie decides to return to the real world and
become human, the first thing that we see her do
is go to a gynecologist, and it's implied that she

(01:31:35):
has grown a vagina question mark.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
The implications are quite scary.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
They're scary, it's a very gender sensualist thing to imply
that because she apparently has a vagina, now that's how
you become a quote unquote real woman.

Speaker 2 (01:31:52):
I was talking about this bravely with my boyfriend, not woo,
but I was talking about because that was a that
from view one I've always felt yucky about and because
and I don't think it comes from a hateful place.
I just think it comes from a thoughtless place and
that I was like, well what is because I like,

(01:32:14):
I've never not seen that, because it is also kind
of like a tongue in cheek kind of thing. But
I'm like, there's other ways to make this joke without
it having to be gender essentialist. I was like, can
we have her go buy some mace? Like can we Like,
there's a lot of different ways to be like I
am joining the struggle of human women and femmes today

(01:32:40):
and I am buying mace and a knife to attach
to my keys or whatever it is, without it becoming
this creepy like you're saying like essential ast bio freaky,
Like it's just a dark road to go down. Don't
ever go down it. There's ways to make the point.
I think that they're trying to make without doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
My pitch was like, why can't we just see her
like enrolling in a class.

Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
Or something like. I like that, Like at the end,
she's like excited to do something that people dread. Like that,
it's like no one's smiling to go see their guynecologists,
but like no one's smiling when they're doing millions of
things associated with being a femin in the world, you know, right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):
So, Greta Gerwig, I pulled a quote from her about this.
She says, quote, I knew I wanted to end on
a mic drop kind of joke, but I also find
it very emotional. When I was a teenage girl, I
remember growing up and being embarrassed about my body and
just feeling ashamed in a way that I couldn't even describe.

(01:33:49):
I felt like everything had to be hidden.

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
And then to see.

Speaker 1 (01:33:53):
Margot as Barbie with this big old smile on her
face saying what she says at the end, with such
happiness and enjoy I was like, if I can give
girls that feeling of Barbie does it too. That's both
funny and emotional. Unquote, which fair I get, especially because

(01:34:13):
women and fems are encouraged to feel ashamed about their body.
But it just feels like, like you said, it wasn't
carefully sought out and the implications of a joke like
that were kind of ignored.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
And yeah, stuff like that. I agree, Yeah, I think
it's under that. And know it's also interesting to hear
her sort of internal logic. It makes sense that it
comes from a personal place. But again I think that
that's just that's almost like something that we rarely encounter
in this exact context. But like that feels like the
oh tour risk that like people in those positions just

(01:34:54):
need to be really mindful about. Is that, like, if
you're projecting your experience as the experience, you're gonna come
up against issues like this that are intentional or not exclusionary.
And in this you know, in this case centering SIS
women right, And also I can acknowledge that you know,

(01:35:15):
SIS women, I mean, anyone could laugh at that joke
and that a lot of SIS women felt seen by it.
But I just feel like, as the button of a
movie that I really enjoyed, I was bummed out by it.
There are so many because I mean, there's just so
many ways to make that point without centering that there's

(01:35:35):
so many ways in which femmes are encouraged to feel
shame and discomfort. You really have a chrkey to rey Board.

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
So truly. Yes, a few other things that I found
frustrating about the movie. This is just going to be
a quicker list, But one is the joke that compares
what's happening in barbie Land with like Ken taking over,
comparing that who colonizers committing genocide against indigenous people in

(01:36:04):
the New World in the fifteen hundreds.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
Yeah, especially in a movie that makes no attempt to
comment on Indigenous people in any other way except in
this one joke, and it Yeah, do not like no
another one.

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
And I hinted at this a little bit ago, but
the suggestion that the only people who play with dolls
are girls. This is the case in the opening sequence
with the little girls playing with the baby dolls, and
then later when weird Barbie is explaining to stereotypical Barbie
that there's usually a disconnect between the Barbie and the

(01:36:40):
girl who is playing with her, ignoring the fact that
boys and children of all genders play with dolls.

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
Which again, it felt very preventable. Like it, you don't
change the meaning of that statement by saying, like the
kid like.

Speaker 1 (01:36:57):
Yeah, the language could have been altered to to just
make it more gender inclusive, and it just didn't do it.
Speaking of Weird Barbie, I say justice for her. I
think she deserves more of an apology.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
I think weird Barbie could should have stolen someone's house.
I was like, weird Barbie should have done some damage.
I feel like if I was Weird Barbie, I would
be filling such rage in a way that I would
have been more interested. I would have been way more
interested in Weird Barbie exerting her rage onto the other
barbiees versus the Kens on the Barbies, because Weird Barbie,

(01:37:32):
unlike the Kens, has genuinely been wronged, right. She is
like Jennifer Hudson cat in Cats as I think I
loudly said to you in movie theater, But it's true.
She is. She is like memory, Like where's her memory?
All alone in the moonlight? Like they said, like hard
enough Barbie says, she used to be the most beautiful Barbie,

(01:37:55):
but then she got old and weird, and now she's
been sent off to the island of misfit grinch Barbies.
And it's like that's literally Jennifer Hudson Cat, Yeah, tell
me that's not her. What was the name, Grizabella, Grizabella
the glamour Cat. And then they gave her the gift
of death at the end. They should have done that.
They should have sent Weird Barbie up in the balloon

(01:38:16):
and just given her the sweet embrace of death if
that's what she wanted. Either way, we do know that
she knows what death is and I will never get
over that. But yeah, I think that like they were
just the fact that I mean, and I liked Kate
McKinnon's performance. I think the anesthetic is cool, Like the
joke of weird Barbie is awesome, but it just felt
like that character is like it's such a strong setup

(01:38:38):
for a character and such a perfect piece of casting
that it's like, let her fuck around. She's mostly just like,
it's all good that you've treated me horrifically, and I'm
Jennifer Hudson Cat, You're like, it's actually famously not all good.

Speaker 1 (01:38:53):
It's not okay, and yeah, and then she's doing a
bunch of the labor to like save Barbie land on
brainwash the Barbie.

Speaker 6 (01:39:01):
So it's like like Marco Robbie, Barbie keeps calling her ugly,
and I'm like, it feels very like Liz lemon coated,
where you're like, I mean, the cost of it makes
her look not you know, but but it's like you're
still looking at ka kit and be serious, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):
Right, I mean it goes back to the stereotypical Barbie's
kind of obsession with image that like, I just wish
I'd been handled differently in the movie anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
And yeah, and I guess like with her obsession with image,
I think it makes sense that it's there, but it's
just not handled period kind of. It's just it just is.
It's like the Blockbuster. What happens in every Blockbuster where
they're like, we're not doing the thing, but like to
some extent your always doing the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:39:45):
The thing this is real quick. But I would also
say justice for Midge. I know, there's like the voiceover
that says, like, oh, let's not show Midge because a
pregnant or I'm sorry, a pregnant dog is just too weird.
And I don't disagree with that. I don't necessarily want
a pregnant doll.

Speaker 2 (01:40:06):
If you've seen the doll, I like, because I also
wrote Justice Formage in my notes, Justice Formage as she's
presented in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:40:13):
In the movie, Yeah, and then you see the doll
and you're like, that is disturbing. But when you see
you know, Emerald Fanelle in the movie and then it
like pans away from her really quick, it just means
that there's a joke at the expense of a pregnant person. Yeah,
so I didn't love that either.

Speaker 2 (01:40:35):
I let it fly, but only because the dolls genuinely
bone chilling.

Speaker 1 (01:40:39):
It's creepy. Yeah, I guess I don't know how succinctly
or thoughtfully I made any kind of like conclusive thoughts
throughout the live show, but I do just want to
say that, like bottom line, it's about women lifting each
other up and fighting against the patriarchy. Very few movies

(01:41:00):
are actually about that. It's not a movie that revolves
around a woman ending up romantically with a man. Instead,
it's a movie about a woman's self discovery and self actualization.
But I also think that this movie pretty accurately reflects

(01:41:21):
where we are at culturally in regard to feminism. You know,
it's again a big, high budget, high grossing movie about
feminism that still focuses on a character who is sis.
She's white, she's hyper feminine, she's traditionally beautiful, because that
is it's Margarot Robbie, because that is still what's largely

(01:41:45):
valued by society. And even though there's more feminist discourse
in the mainstream culture than there was, and there's more
calling out sexism and patriarchal standards than there was, like
you know, a decade ago and certainly before that, intersectionality
is still not very mainstream. And I think this movie

(01:42:07):
reflects that. I think that the as we said, like
the attempts at inclusion are pretty surface level, and it
just means that we just have to keep pushing the
conversation right of intersectionality and meaningful inclusion.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
And I think that this movie, I want to believe,
and I think we did discuss this in the live show,
is that while this movie leaves a lot to be
desired in terms of meaningful inclusion, that its success in
a just world leaves the way. Yeah. I mean, because
we've talked about this on this show for years, where

(01:42:43):
it's like proving again and again and again that a
quote unquote marginalized movie going population, which is ridiculous because
women are the majority of movie going population, like need
to be validated as worthy of being catered to directly.
And it's very rare that, like, at least in the

(01:43:04):
blockbuster sense, that women and friends are undeniably shown to
be can be a force behind a movie. And I hope,
and you know, blah blah blah, Like I don't believe
we live in a just world, but I hope that
the success of Barbie will lead two more meaningfully inclusive projects,
and hopefully this will be a stepping stone in building

(01:43:27):
blockbusters that are genuinely more inclusive. And I think building
blockbusters that are more genuinely inclusive mean straying from this
old ip because you're presented with a high fucking mountain
to scale if you're given Barbie ip like, it's it.

(01:43:48):
I really hope that the success of Barbie can be
taken as a sign that yes, in fact, women still
want to see movies, always have, always will, and to
invest in original stories that don't have these complicated and
fucked connections with body image, with race, with heteronormativity that

(01:44:12):
the Barbie property does. And so anyways, I think this movie, like,
I mean, we've talked about it all at this point,
but its failures should be discussed, and I hope that
its success means that those failures can be corrected by
directors down the line. And with that, let's take you
back to the Barbie past, where we provide our Barbie

(01:44:36):
past conclusive thoughts about the Barbie movie.

Speaker 1 (01:44:39):
Wow, does the movie pass the Bechdel test?

Speaker 2 (01:44:46):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
Oh yeah, yes, immediately and all the time. And we
love that, and we love that. And when the Kens
are talking, they're usually talking about barbiees.

Speaker 2 (01:44:56):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
It's like the reverse Spectel test thing.

Speaker 2 (01:44:58):
It's true. They're either they're talking about Barbie or horses
and horses of indetermined gender. I feel like horses really
kind of get the short end of the stick in
this movie. I feel like horses, you know, they never
asked to be associated with patriarchy, That's true. Let them
be free. The Felicity girls are begging for it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:17):
Yes, but what about our nipple scale? The scale world
we write the movie was zero to five nipples. Examining
it through an intersectional feminist lens, Yes, I'm between like
a three point five and four on this. I think
this movie is doing a lot more than most movies do.
And even though it misses opportunities to be more inclusive

(01:45:41):
and to be more intersectional, and to just open up
more conversations about capitalism and white supremacy and all the
things we discussed, it still is is a fun romp
about women taking down the patriarchy, and I love that,

(01:46:02):
so I think I'll go I'll go four nipples. Four
out of five is eighty percent, and that's still a
B minus and that feels honestly fair. So past Barbie
over here. I'll give one nipple to John Senna, whoever
the fuck that is never heard of him. I will

(01:46:25):
give one nipple to Esay, I will give one nipple
to Greta Gerwig, and I'll give one nipple to Margot Robbie.

Speaker 2 (01:46:36):
Wow, that was not creative at all. I'm going to
go for as well. Yeah, I mean, based on everything
we've been talking about and stuff we didn't even have
time to talk about. I think that this movie is
because this movie exists and was so successful. I am
currently at the time of recording, optimistic that it will

(01:46:56):
lead to more women driven projects that are more inclusive
and are more thoughtful on the issues that this movie
didn't address. Because I is a Barbie movie ever going
to be capable of handling capitalism meaningfully. Probably not. But
I do feel like the success of this movie and
the fact that it is explicitly about women tackling women's

(01:47:19):
issues is really amazing. Yeah, I mean, I think that obviously,
the diversity of this movie is very surface. Y. I
still can't believe that they cast EASi Ray and gave
her ten lines like what is wrong with you? My
mom is a second grade teacher, And I asked, I
did a little study. I was like, what are kids'

(01:47:40):
favorite parts of the Barbie movie? And their favorite parts
are when Easiray shows up they are so thrilled and
do a leaper Mermaid. Wow, those are the parts that
matter to the children. And I celebrate that John Cena
Mermaids sort of crickets there because who is that? Who

(01:48:02):
is John Senna? Who's John Senna? I don't know who
that who that is? But yeah, I mean I also,
I just like, I really liked seeing this movie. It
puts me in a good mood to watch it, and
there's not a lot of movies that do it. And
I think it's gonna stand the test of time. And
I think that's really exciting. So I'm gonna give it
four nipples. I'm gonna give one to Greta Gerwig. I'm

(01:48:23):
gonna give one. Oh, I'm gonna give one to Arianna
green Blatt because I wish that Sasha had had more
to do, and she played the moody teenager really perfectly. Truly,
she was like giving full hot topic in her first
scene she had. I was like, all, but like the thumb,
you know, like the slave on the thumb. She could
have been wearing fingerless gloves and it would have worked.

(01:48:45):
And that's great. I'm going to give one nipple to
Issa Ray and I'm gonna give one nipple too. I'll
give one to John Senna as well. I hope he
catches a break at some point. He's really no, I'm
going to give min a DJ Collin because no, wait, wait,
wait no, I'm going to give my DJ collins ex wife.

(01:49:09):
May things have improved on her end? Yeah? Is that
an episode? That's our episode, everybody, mum.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
And that was the Barbie Live Show. Thanks again to
everyone who came out to all of the shows that
we did on this tour. Thank you to the venues
for having us. We always have such fun doing live shows,
especially the.

Speaker 2 (01:49:36):
Meet and greets, hanging out like actually just getting to
spend time with you. We really appreciate it very much.

Speaker 1 (01:49:42):
Thanks to everyone who bought merch and again we have
another tour coming up in the UK, so if you
want to come see us do shows on Titanic or Shrek.
We know most movies of all time, possibly the two

(01:50:03):
movies that are most canon to this show, so you
know that we're gonna put on a spectacle.

Speaker 2 (01:50:10):
And you can't call us misinterests because guess what, they're
directed by men. Sorry, uh no, we'll see you at
the UK. Thanks to everyone who came out to this
tour and as always, if you want to listen to
more Bechdel Cast, well you're very able to do that.
You can go right now to our patreon Akmatreon that's
patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, and for five dollars

(01:50:33):
a month, you have access to two additional episodes a
month around a fun theme hosted by Caitlin and myself.
It's always a good time, and you'll get access to
over one hundred and fifty episodes of back catalog there
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:50:47):
Oh my goodness, you can also go to our merch
store at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast, where
you can satisfy all of your merch needs and everything
there is designed by a one Jamie Loftus, So grab
your merch and stay tuned for the other live show

(01:51:09):
that we covered on this tour. That episode will be
coming out soon on The Wolf of Wall Street, so
keep your eyes peeled for that and other episodes. Ye Bye,
Bye Bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,
hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman,

(01:51:30):
edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by
Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskresenski. Our logo in
Merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks
to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please
visit linktree slash Bechdel Cast

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

The Bechdel Cast News

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Caitlin Durante

Jamie Loftus

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

1. The Podium

2. In The Village

3. iHeartOlympics: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Barbie