Past Lives with Nancy Wang Yuen

On this episode, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Nancy Wang Yuen explore their in-yun and chat about Past Lives.

Check out Nancy at nancywyuen.com and grab her book, Reel Inequality: Hollywood Actors and Racism. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
have individualism?

Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's a patriarchy. Zeph and Vest start changing with the
Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, how many layers of Indian do
you think we have between us?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
What's a polite answer.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
I think it's eight thousand or more.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Ooh, okay, let's go for it. Yes, we are connected
in unprecedented way.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
We're basically married, so we are spiritually married. It's true.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
That is actually I do think that that is true.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
I think so.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, that is true.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
There is nothing stronger than the bond between two podcasters.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
We know so much about each other.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
It's true. It's true.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Toronte,
and this is our show where we examine movies through
an intersection feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test simply as
a jumping off point to initiate much larger conversations. But
what is the Bechdel test, Jamie?

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, it is a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Alison Bechdel often called the Bechdel Wallace test because it
was co created with her friend Liz Wallace. There's a
lot of different versions of this test. It was originally
just made as a one off kind of gag in

(01:30):
her Wonderful Comics collection Dikes to Watch out For, and
it's sort of evolved over the years. The version of
the test that we use require that two characters of
a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about
something other than a man for more than two lines
of dialogue, and they should be meaningful lines of dialogue,

(01:50):
no how would you like your burger cooked? Type of
random interaction. We don't let movies get away with a
barely pass, and also we kind of barely talk about
it because it's just a jumping off point for discussion.
There's so many things to talk about with movies, but
for a long time and still often this bare minimum

(02:12):
never takes place.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
So it is true and there is a lot to
talk about. In today's movie, which is Past Lives that
came out last year.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I feel like every single person who listened to this
show requested this movie. Yeah, it's been out for I
think it's been out for over a year now, but
it felt like throughout last year, as it became more
available and theater is more available on streaming, that people
were discovering it. And yeah, I'm so excited. The day
has come. It's Past Lives Day on the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
It sure is, and we have a wonderful guest here
with us to chat about it. She is a sociologist
and author of Real Inequality, Hollywood Actors and Racism. It's
Nancy wong Yun.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Hello, Hi, so it gets you here.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Welcome, And just because this is an audio medium, it's
want to shout out Nancy's everything everywhere, all at once.
Post that is behind her just an important addition to
every home.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Is that a show that you've talked about on your podcast?

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Not yet, we haven't covered it yet.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
There's a few movies that we're sort of like, we're
gonna make the listeners wait and wait and wait and
then surprise them one day.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
This movie, however, we got so many requests that were like,
we cannot play the long game with Past Lives. So
to start, we're curious. I know it's a fairly recent movie,
but what is your history with this movie?

Speaker 1 (03:42):
You know, I was attending Sundance virtually the year that
it screened in Sundance, I think, I think, actually maybe
it was supposed to do it over the pandemic, and
there was delays, and it finally screened in Utah and Sundance,
but because I was only joining on line virtually, I
couldn't see it, and it built up all this anticipation

(04:05):
for myself. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's like
the one movie I really want to see. But they
were you know, sometimes they just do in person screenings
and they don't allow for online viewing for journalists and
general audience. And so that was the year that it
came out. But A twenty four had contacted me with
an early press screening I think soon after it premiered

(04:28):
at Sundance, and so I drove all the way out
to La I'm in the suburbs, and I was just
sitting in a screening room. There were only maybe four
or five other journalists, but it was a very small
screening room, and I remember watching it and being emotionally
drained and excited and just something that I had never

(04:50):
seen that I would expect to kind of reflect my
own experience and enlighten my own experience and speak to it.
So I was, yeah, I was really I had a
deep connection with the film since the first time I
saw it, and.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
Then you spoke to Selene's song and wrote a piece
about it, which is how we Yes do.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah. So I then pitched an interview with Elle, and
you know, pitched my idea because after I saw the film,
I thought that it was a film about immigration for sure,
but that the entire metaphor of the relationship had to
do with kind of immigrant lives, and so that was
how I pitched it. And I ended up talking to

(05:31):
Selene very long about it. And it's so funny because
she and I talked about are In Young, just like
you all talked about yours, and she really really believes
in it, and I felt like I was so also
enlightened about ying Young through Selene and her saying that
she and I had Eyan Young too, because I actually
saw her on before I interviewed her. I saw her

(05:53):
very very briefly at this thing called the Gold Gala.
She was It was an Asian American and kind of
award show, and she was walking the Gold carpet, and
I like flagged her down. I said, oh, Selene, I'm
going to be interviewing you suit oh for all and
thinking about, I guess, all the moments where we happen
to meet up with one another, right, all the different

(06:15):
potential and unrealized and realized connections. All of that is
to think about as part of kind of a larger
I don't know, fabric of some sort. It was very
beautiful to think about.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's really beautiful.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Oh my gosh, I love it. Well, Jamie, what is
your relationship with this movie?

Speaker 2 (06:35):
I have a kind of funny relationship with this movie.
I mean it's Selene Song's debut film. I wasn't familiar
with her work prior to this, but I was really
excited to see as a longtime Greta Lee fan. Who
is I mean, it's so funny because I primarily thought
of her as a comic actress because she's done so
many great TV roles over the years. I always think

(06:55):
of how great she was in Russian Doll. But I mean,
she's been in so much over the years, and like
rarely gets to properly lead. So I was very excited
to see her and I was going to see it
when it first came into theaters, and I texted my
brother like, I'm going to go see Past Lives and
he had just seen it and he knew I was
going through a gnarly breakup and he literally texted me, Jamie,

(07:19):
I don't think you're in a good emotional place to
see Past Lives right now. I remember this, Yeah, yeah,
And I was like, Wow, my brother has never said
anything remotely like that to me. I guess I'll listen.
And so I didn't see it until a couple of
months ago when I checked in with him and he
said he thought I, in fact was now in a

(07:40):
good enough emotional place to see Past Lives, and I
think he was right. But yeah, I mean, I loved
this movie. I loved this movie. It will get into it,
but it's so beautiful and I feel like it's really
rare to find a movie that is both extremely specific
but any viewer can feel their own lived experience through it.

(08:04):
And just like these ships passing in the night, types
of relationships are so heart wrenching and rare to see
done thoughtfully on screen. And I just think this movie
is so beautiful and I'm excited to talk about it, Caitlin,
what's your history with Past Lives?

Speaker 3 (08:20):
I saw it in theaters and I really enjoyed it,
and I really appreciate it when we're doing an episode
on a movie that there's like nothing bad to say
about the movie, because most of our job is wow,
everything was so problematic or the things that were interesting

(08:45):
and subversive are sort of overshadowed by all of the
other problematic things that are happening, And this movie is
just like pure wonderfulness, you know. And I appreciate movies
like that, episodes like this because it's a brother of
fresh air. But yeah, so I'm also excited to talk

(09:09):
about it. And should we just get into the recap
and go from there.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come
back for the recap and we're back. Okay, So here
is Past Lives. We open on three people who are
having a drink at a bar. It's an Asian man,

(09:38):
an Asian woman, and a white man, and we hear
nearby people speculating on what these three people's dynamic must be.
They're like, oh, are two of them in a relationship?
Are any of them related to each other? Are they
just colleagues? Well, we're about to find out.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Can I say something. I actually was just in Boston
and I went to a restaurant and I could only
be seated at the bar, and I literally saw three
people that look like the three people the way. I
even snapped a photo, but then I was like, I
felt uncomfortable posting it because you know, I didn't do
it like with their consent. The Asian woman even has

(10:23):
short hairs, just like Greta Ellie's character and Nora, and
I just I just thought, what are the chances that
maybe there are a lot of people that you know
the kind of you know, three people and you don't
know what their relationships are to each other. But this
literally happened, I think two days ago, and I thought,

(10:43):
oh my gosh, I'm gotta be talking about past lives
and I can't believe I'm seeing potentially a real life
past lives moment in front of me.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Cilian song opened our third eye. This dynamic is everywhere.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Exactly the thing that you don't notice, and all of
a sudden, it's everywhere. Yes, that is the Asian woman
with the Asian man and a white man. Who what
happens all over the country, but this is uh it
was cool to witness in real life.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah, and I wonder what their dynamic was, but no idea.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
I didn't. I didn't feel comfortable enough to get like, hey,
you'll remind you pass lies your ex from your home country.
That would have been terrible. The woman would be like,
are you racist? What are you doing now? I'm just
a huge past life fad.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
That's hilarious. Okay, So we see them in the present day,
but then we cut to twenty four years earlier. We
are in Seoul, Korea, and we meet two twelve year
old kids, Now Young and her friend hey Sung, and
they are friends and classmates. Hey Sung always walks home

(11:54):
with now Young after school. Niong is upset because she's
used to getting like the top grades in her class,
but hay Sung has outperformed her today, so she's crying
about it and he's trying to comfort her. Very sweet
interaction between kids, and then Niong arrives home. Her family

(12:15):
is gearing up to immigrate to Canada. I think Toronto
is where they're going, and she and her younger sister
are picking out English names. Niong goes with Nora. Her
little sister goes with Michelle, and then Niong tells her
mom about Hey Sung how she'll probably marry him someday,

(12:39):
and her mom asks if she wants to go on
a date with him, So her mom takes the two
of them to the park for a little kid date.
Haysong's mom is also there. Naiong's mom wants to make
good memories for her before the family leaves for Canada,
so that's why they're kind of chaperone this date. And

(13:02):
they have a nice time on the date. They even
hold hands.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
It's so cute.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
It's adorable.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
And the two moms have a conversation too.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yes, Heysong's mom is asking why they're immigrating, especially because
Niong's mother is an artist and her father is a
film director, and she's like, why would you leave all
that behind? And I think she responds with, well, when
you leave something behind, you also gain something.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
So I love that. That's really deep. It's such a
deep kind of immigration or just you know, life kind of.
It's such a simple conversation, but I remember feeling the
ways of that. I want to write. I want to
write that down and think about that some more.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
M hmm totally. And then Haysong finds out that Nyong
will be leaving soon and he's sad and we're sad.
And then Nay Young and her mom, dad, and sister
moved to Canada. We see her briefly at school. She
seems to be feeling out of place, and then we

(14:06):
cut to twelve years later. So now it's twenty twelve. Nyong,
who goes by Nora now, is living in New York City.
Ever heard of it. She's played by Greta Lee, and
she's chatting on the phone with her mom and they're
joking around and like looking up people that they used

(14:27):
to know on Facebook, and Nora is like, well, what
about that boy? I had a huge crush on hey song,
And so she looks him up and she sees a
post of his on Facebook from a few months prior
where he's like asking about her and looking for her.
So Norah messages him on Facebook being like, Hi, it's me.

Speaker 4 (14:49):
God.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
That's already such wish fulfillment to be like, oh, yeah,
you're crush from when you're twelve, they're looking for you,
they still love you, right sequences. I mean, they're beautiful narratively,
but I also is just like wow, Selene's song nailed
like there were a few twenty twelve details that were
kind of triggering. The like sound of a Skype call,

(15:13):
You're like, uh, like, I haven't. It's been eighty four
years since I've heard the sound of a Skype call,
or like the Facebook messenger interface. You're like, god, this
is like, this is where I made so many mistakes
on this exact interface.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Wi It has been eighty four years and I can
still see the grainy video quality. So Hey song now
played by Tayo. You gets the message from Nora and
he's all excited, and then they start corresponding back and forth.

(15:49):
They do a Skype call and he's like, I've been
trying really hard to find you, and he was having
trouble finding her because she had changed her name to
Nora and catch up. She tells him that she's a playwright.
He is in school studying engineering, and then he gets
very kind of Erna tells her that he has missed her,

(16:12):
and she's like me too, who And they continue meeting
up pretty regularly over Skype, and she tells him about
this upcoming month long artist residency that she will be
doing on Long Island, I think. And he says, oh, well,
I'm going to China soon to learn Mandarin. And she's like, oh,

(16:35):
you should come to New York and learn English. And
he says that he may be able to come visit,
but it would probably be like a year and a
half from then, and she's like, well, it probably won't
be a year at least until I would be able
to come back to Seoul to visit. And so she
decides that she wants them to stop talking for a

(16:56):
while because she wants to commit to her life in
New York and accomplished something there, and she feels as
though her like considering this visit to Korea to see
him is sort of like distracting her from her goals.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
That is the point in the Vivia is like, Okay,
she is stronger than me.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
She is stronger than me.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
I would be like, let's do long distance forever.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Why not?

Speaker 2 (17:23):
What's the worst that could happen? And I was like, wow,
good healthy boundaries. Love to see it.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
I think there were a lot of like technical difficulties
where they're missing each other because of the time difference,
and you know, tech drops and you know, someone's sleeping,
someone's hill calling in. I think it's like the kind
of typical long distance and also across time zones issues.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
For sure, And so you know, Nora communicates this boundary
to him and he understands, but he's really sad about
it and they say goodbye. Then nor heads to that
artist residency retreat and it's at this house where she

(18:08):
meets Arthur, another writer played by John Macgaro.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yes, the future author of Boner Boner.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Oh, I think I missed that.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh his book is named Boner, which I is one
of my favorite details in the movie.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
So funny. Is it nonfiction? Is it fiction? I don't
really care. I love that his book is named Boner.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
I have no beef with Arthur, but I just think
that that is the funniest Like Brett Easton ellis vibe ripoff,
like white guy novel, Like it's called Boner.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, Oh I love that detail.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah yeah, I think I paid no attention to him
at all. I was like, could you just maybe go
away so that two people that deserve to be with
each other are together.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Like he just speaks to my level of maturity, where
if the word boner's on screen, my eye is go
and drift there and alaser focus. Yeah, I was like,
oh there.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Seriously, I saw I think I've seen the movie at
least three times, and I never saw that.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
You see it In that scene where they're at a bookstore,
I think he's doing a book signing, and so there's
stacks of his book and I forget what's on the cover.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
What's on the cover? Did I even miss that? It's
just words, right, it's just words.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
It says Boner. And then there's a photo that I
think has nothing to do with boner, but the title
is very visible.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Also, just another shout out to Celine Song's restraint at
having that be the title and having no one pointed
out I would not be able to shut up if
my weird husband wrote a book called Boner. But it's
not what the movie's about.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
No, But where's the sequel in which that is all
they talk about?

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Where's this to screen adaptation of what if? That's Selene
Song's next project? The adaptation of Bone of bon kidding,
just kidding, watch just enough of Arthur in this movie.
But that was just like a great detail.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Oh and we never mentioned that all of this is
based on her real life, right, it's loosely based on
selling songs real life.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yes, she also met I think her husband at an
artist thing and he is a writer, and she did
have a childhood love and the whole bar scene actually
happened in her real life. That is when it was
like during the bar scene that you start thinking about, Oh,
I wonder what people think of us, and I'm going
to make this into it.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
This is a movie. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Okay.
So Nora and Arthur meet and they get to chatting.
They hit it off. She tells him about a word
in Korean in young which which means providence or fate,
but it specifically refers to relationships between people. For example,

(21:06):
it's in Yuan. If two strangers pass on the street
and their clothes accidentally brush, it means there must have
been something between them in their past lives that's the
name of the movie. Or if, for example, two people
get married, it's said that there must have been eight
thousand layers of in Yuan over the course of like

(21:28):
eight thousand lifetimes. And then Nora is like, TIHI, I
don't really believe in this. It's just something Koreans say
to seduce someone and then he's like oh, and then
they smooch. Meanwhile, Hayesan heads to China for this language
exchange program, but he's not smooching anyone.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
He's sitting next to someone. He's sitting next to someone eating. Yes,
there's a luck.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yes they're eyeing each other.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, probably maybe you know more culturally, it's not like
you smooch someone on the first Well, I'm not going
to smooch on the first night. But I guess the
artists colony is different than meeting a restaurant.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
True. People are so horny during artists residencies, so it seems.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
To be true.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I know it feels like adult summer cap kind of right.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
I think that's why people go on them. They're like, sure,
i'll write a little bit, but I'm here to fuck.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
I wrote forty words and I fucked everyone, and you're like.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
So then we cut to another twelve years later, so
we are now in present day. Nora and Arthur are married.
They still live in New York City. Nourra is an
accomplished playwright, and Arthur has a book published called Boner.
And then we learn that Haisung is coming to New

(22:56):
York to be there on vacation, and he wants to
link up with Nora, although he does know that Nora
is married, so it's not like that will be a
surprise to him. And so he arrives in New York
and he and Nora meet up. They have a tender reunion.
They walk around the city and catch up.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
My god, it's so good, it's so beautiful, Like the
second they see each other, I'm crying for the rest
of the movie.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, but there isn't anything cheesy in terms of like
it's not like, you know, all of a sudden they
embrace and they go into a passionate kiss. Now because
she is married, she's happily married, and yet there is
this tension that is so visceral just by them looking
at each other, speaking in and laughing and giggling and

(23:47):
small little touches and oh it's it's it's better, right.
It's like it's like how ca dramas are in terms of,
you know, more of a slow burn, very slow burn.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, I mean, just the casting in this movie is
off the chart, like and just how subtle the performances are,
because it like there is this base part of me
that is like kiss but it's like but they're really
it's just like so well done. And again, like Selene
Song has incredible like restraint and like how she paces

(24:22):
these sequences.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
It's so beautiful. There's a scene where they're sitting in
front of like a Merry go Round kind of thing,
and yeah, she's talking and he's like staring very intently
at her, and I'm so conditioned from watching movies that
I thought he was gonna kind of like lunge at

(24:44):
her and kiss her during like a lull in their conversation,
because like we've seen something like that so many times
and it never happens. And that's not the type of
thing that would happen in this movie, because this movie
doesn't like adhere to any of those Hollywood tropy sappy,
corny moments like.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
That and problematic moments exactly.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Y yeah, yeah, God, it's like, yeah, that's like what
we've been talking about every week for eight years, is
like the conditioning to surprise kiss someone and there's no
consent and there's you know, it's all of this you know, patriarchal.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
Wish fulfillment for sure.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
And I mean I think That's probably part of why
I wasn't emotionally prepared to see it at the time,
is because it feels so authentic for sure.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, because even at one point Nora's husband says, gosh,
I'm the white husband like third wheel here. It's something
like that, right where he actually exactly names the thing
that we're all all the audiences thinking, yeah, and he
actually says it rather than I think embody some sort
of toxic masculinity where he starts to be suspicious of
her or questioning or whatever that we're used to in

(25:55):
terms of Hollywood troms.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about like the
men's reactions to things because it's I think very interesting.
But in any case, so Nora and Hayesan are catching up.
He tells her about his girlfriend, who he is not
currently with because he feels as though he should make

(26:18):
more money and be less ordinary before like it's appropriate
for them to get married. And Norah asks him why
he was looking for her all those years ago, and
he's like, well, you disappeared so suddenly from my life,
and he was upset about it, and he clearly like

(26:41):
didn't get any closure from it, and so then Nora
returns home to Arthur and she's like, you were right,
he did come here to see me, and she goes
on to say that he has very like Korean views
and lives a very Korean lifestyle, and that when she's

(27:03):
with him, she somehow feels both less and more Korean,
which is something I'm interested in talking about further. And
then they also talk about their relationship, Nora and Arthur's relationship,
and you know, whether or not she's happy with the
life they've built together. And this is when Arthur's kind
of joking about a fictional version of this story where

(27:26):
you know, two childhood lovers reunite and run away together
after all these years and there's an evil white American
husband who's trying to stop them and all this stuff.
And Norah's like, that's not going to happen. I've built
my life here with you and I love you. And
he's like, okay, tight, tight, tight, And.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
She also says, I'm not going to give up my play,
you know, rehearsal, Yeah, which I love because it's not like, oh,
I'm either with you or with him. No, it's I
have my own career and you know, I'm not giving
that up. That was actually I think the most important
point that she made.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, she says something like I'm not gonna miss my
rehearsals for some dude, preferring to as like, you know,
long lost child love of hers as some dude, which
is pretty funny.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, I also like that Arthur is trying to play
off being insecure, but like he is so insecure that
he's not the key about her career and she has
to be like, well, hold on, you know, like love
you and everything, but like you're just saying, Nancy, like
you are not the only reason that my life is
here now, Like I've busted my ass to have my

(28:32):
life be here for a lot of reasons.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yep. Okay. So the next day, Nora and he Sung
meet up again and it's his last day in New
York before he heads back to Soul and he meets
Arthur too. They go out for pasta and for drinks,
and then we reach that scene that's the opening scene
of the movie, where the three of them are together

(28:57):
and people are, you know, trying to guess their dynamic,
and the conversation is a little awkward because of this
language barrier between Haysung and Arthur, Nora is having to
translate quite a bit, and then Haysung gets serious for
a moment and he tells Nora that seeing how much

(29:17):
she loves her husband, he didn't realize how much that
would hurt him. He also says he's having all these
thoughts of, oh, what if I did come to see
you twelve years ago in New York, or what if
you had never left Soul when you were a kid.
But they both acknowledge that what was supposed to happen happened,

(29:39):
though Nora does wonder if there was something in their
past lives that brought them back together in Yuan, of course,
and they talk about how in Yuan brought Nora and
Arthur together and how there's even in Yon between Arthur
and Haysong.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
M hm.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
That was like my favorite, right that it's always I
think the love triangle is always represented so one dimensionally,
and here there is a connection, right, there is a
connection even between the two men.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Definitely. Yeah, what we're used to seeing is the not
to be bringing up Titanic again, but the Billy Zane
Leonardo DiCaprio of it all where they're both hero villain. Yeah,
so yeah, this was far more nuanced.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
No one punching anybody here, No, no punching, no shooting,
no shipwreck, no.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
But heartache, a lot of heartache, heartache. And I think
someone says that, you know, I didn't even hurt him
to even like Arthur, right that it's kind of like
because it's like, you want, you want the idea that oh,
she's married to with some terrible person, I'm gonna be
able to whisker her away, but instead, no, she's happy
with a really good guy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, And just the fact that Cilian Song clearly has
so much love for all three of these characters and
it takes the time to explore how they all feel
about each other. It's just it's so.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Rare, totally okay. So, as they're parting ways, Nora waits
with his song as he's waiting for his uber, and
they stare intently at each other, and then he says,
what if this is a past life two and we're
already something else to each other in our next life

(31:22):
And she's like, yeah, maybe, and he's like, well, see
you then, and then he gets in his uber and leaves,
and then Norah walks the few steps back home and
she's crying, and Arthur is there and he embraces her,
and we're crying. Everyone's crying. It's very emotional. And that's

(31:44):
the end of the movie. So let's take another quick
break and we will come back to discuss and we're back.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
Nancy. I want to start with talking with you about
your connection to this movie and also just the process
of writing this beautiful piece.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah. So when I saw the movie that first time
I had during the pandemic thought about going back to Taiwan,
I was like, oh, there's all this anti Asian hate.
I'm you know, I didn't even choose to come here.
I was like, like Nora's character, you know, came as
a child. Although when I talked to Selene, she did
feel like she had a choice, right. I came when

(32:34):
I was younger, and I felt like, you know, my
parents just brought me. It was not my choice. I
left behind a lot of loved ones. No childhood, sweetheart,
but my grandparents who raised me, who were basically the
only people that I really loved because I didn't actually
know my parents. So slightly different immigration story than the movie,
but still a feeling of kind of longing for a

(32:56):
place that I had left. And at one point, I
think the first time she comes back from meeting Haysan's,
she says to Arthur that she was emotional. She's like,
I think I just missed Korea. And when she said that,
I was like, yes, I just missed Taiwan. I really
really missed Taiwan. And I actually went this past winter.
It had just opened up just recently, and I went

(33:18):
and I just felt this kind of longing that I
haven't felt actually so strongly. And I think the movie
really capture that that it's not just about relationships, but
it's a life that you might have had if you
hadn't left, right. And I think Korea and Taiwan these
are countries that are democracies where we're not fleeing war.

(33:40):
At least when I came, I wasn't fleeing poverty. So
it's like, why am I even here? Why, you know,
why can't I be somewhere where there's public health, you know,
there's health, health care for everybody around exactly so. But
when I talked to Seley, she was much more focused on,

(34:00):
you know, we are where we are meant to be, right,
And I think that the longing that is captured. It
really triggered stuff for me. But I think she was
she I mean, she's fine with audiences taking away whatever
they She just said that people asked her like or
to start to talk to her about exes and how
some people went back to exes and other people were

(34:22):
like appreciating what they had, so that people had all
sorts of relationship reactions, you know, because like you said,
it was very specific but super universal in the idea
of past loves. But for me, I definitely came to it,
and the interview really about centered on the immigration story
and Caitlin you had asked about how why you know

(34:44):
she would feel simultaneously more and less Korean when she
was with Hayesung. When I went to Taiwan this past winter,
That's how I felt. I felt more Taiwanese but also
less right. So I realized the cultural differences. I realized
there were language I didn't know. But by the time
I was leaving after two weeks, I felt like, oh

(35:04):
I am I feel now more time whin needs, you know,
because I had connected with parts of my culture and
realized that I knew I understood it. More memories of
it coming back more than I would think of when
I'm here in the States. So it is this kind
of when you're in between, when you're a young immigrant,
you have dual identities that you know that are always

(35:26):
kind of shuffling back and forth, and I think that
the film really captures that both viscerally through you know,
a relationship, but also just her kind of reflection on it.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, I mean it's such a familiar experience and feeling
for a lot of immigrants, especially those who immigrated as
young people are also just children of immigrants who feel
they belong to two different places, but also in some
cases feel like they don't really belong to either place.

(35:56):
And you know, the feeling of not being able to
say a proper goodbye to the community and the place
you left behind, and the kind of wonder of what
would things have been if I had never left, and
all of these things that the movie I think handles

(36:17):
really thoughtfully and beautifully.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, your piece is just the conversation is so beautiful,
and you both sort of make this connection that I
think I was so swept up in the emotion on
my first viewing, but watching it the second time, it's
like the inherent connection of hayesung to her home and
like how it is this deep emotional relationship, but also

(36:43):
he represents more than that, and like, how do you
navigate that sort of split and how do you navigate
like what you are understandably connecting to someone and then separating, Well,
who are they and who am I in relation to them?
And it's just it's beautiful. I feel like this movie

(37:03):
really rewards on rewatching absolutely and gives you another chance
to see Boner. It's the it's very temper of the book.
Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Selene talks about like their memories of each other who
they were as children was kind of frozen, right because
of the kind of very fast parting, And so when
they come together, you know physically, right, they see each
other through Skype throughout the year, but this is twenty
seven years later, and that kind of connection because of
that memory of who they were, and then and then

(37:41):
the kind of shock at oh you are different, right,
He's so Korean, And it's like when I go to Taiwan,
I'm like, wow, they are culturally distinct, you know, from
from where I came from. And then wondering is that
connection still there? Is that possible because there is this
this golf because you know, I've been raised in another

(38:03):
culture and yet this longing for that and memory that
I once was here. So it's this it's so complicated,
and then and it's wrapped up in one's identity, right,
and then you're kind of like you're searching within yourself.
So so many layers of emotions that come up for
this kind of immigration love.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Story totally, and Jamie to speak to your point about
the sort of like universality of it, even for people
who aren't like separated by a cultural difference. Even if
you just like reconnect with someone from your childhood who
you were once very close with, but then you're separated
by you know, twenty or so years of not having

(38:48):
spoken and not keeping up to date with the other person.
This has happened to me where like I've reconnected with
high school friends many years later and then I'm like, oh,
we don't. It's kind of weird, isn't it is. We're
very different people now and we don't have that much
in common anymore and that much to talk about. Not
that that's necessarily what's happening exactly with Nora and Haysong,

(39:09):
but you get like kind of glimpses of that where
there are these cultural differences or just like personality differences.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, you just change as you get older, Like I
think about yeah, like questioning and I thought this before,
and just reconnecting with someone from the past, like does
it make sense for me to be in this person's
life or do we just miss who we were when
we knew each other and or like where we were
when we knew each other. And it's like a kind
of a painful question because sometimes the answer is like, yeah,

(39:41):
maybe our time in each other's lives, like it might
not make any sense anymore. And it's nice to reconnect,
but like and I think, especially when it's like a
romantic connection, it's even harder to parse out because you're
a horny and so that's challenging.

Speaker 4 (39:57):
But to be like, you know, you can see even
though at no point in the movie was I thinking
like Nora is going to leave with Hayesung, there are
moments that you can or at least maybe I'm projecting
a dart, but you can see her trying to like
game out like well, what does that look like a

(40:20):
year from now?

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Like how would it actually work? And that's like a
necessary but like painful thing to watch a character navigate
on both ends.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
There's another piece I found about this movie that I
also thought was great. It's by Sylvia Jiholi, published in
Little White Lies. It's entitled Past Lives finally pushes the
Asian American diaspora genre into the present. And I want
to kind of like half quote half paraphrase this, but

(40:54):
it opens with quote. It's no secret that Hollywood loves
the formula. When Asianama American stories proved marketable to Western
audiences in the nineties with Wayne Wang's Joylot Club and
Angli's Father Knows Best trilogy, a new cliche similarly arose
to counterbalance its unconventional subject, Asian Americans as walking oxymorons,

(41:18):
the only identity in the world to be labeled with
the ethnicities they weren't enough of. A classic protagonist symbolized
the split between East and West, someone who was too
Asian to fully fit in with work colleagues, but to
American to adopt their parents' values as gospel. The resulting

(41:38):
conflict was one that inherently viewed the motherland as an
impediment to true assimilation, implying a life perpetually lived in
service to either Asian approval or white validation. These films
potentially resonated with an earlier generation whose immigration was inherently
predicated on conforming to white but is no longer the

(42:02):
case for someone like me who came of age in
the same country with little care for that sort of acceptance.
A modern approach to Asian diasporic diasporic Which way do
you say that diasporic filmmaking should push self definition beyond
this binary something I see in Saline Songs Past Lives unquote.

(42:27):
I know that was a long excerpt from that, but yeah,
the piece goes on to examine the kind of emotions
and nuances that surround the act of leaving your home country,
of assimilating into a new culture and mindset, of missing
your home, and how a person's feelings toward those things

(42:51):
evolve as you mature. And yeah, I just thought this
was like such a great piece that touches on so
much of what the is doing.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah, there isn't kind of a East versus West. There
isn't actually even much talk about that so much in
that Oh my gosh, even though she says, you know,
I think I missed Korea. It's not you don't hit
over the head with the immigrant story. You see her
as a young immigrant. You see where she's at, and

(43:22):
you see how you know, she and both Hayes wonder
about what their lives could have been she if she
hadn't immigrated. But it's really centered on the relationship, right,
and it's not about like you see her parents too,
but her parents are not tortured in any way, and
that her parents, I mean her parents who are artists.
She's an artist those that's kind of anti stereotype already,

(43:44):
because I think there's a lot of one singular representation
of immigrants, even though a lot of immigrants from East
Asia are coming from you know, actually because of the laws,
they had to be highly educated because those were the
ones that were they you know, the United States was
letting in posting and that their artists, which is not
something I think that Asian Americans are typically portrayed as,

(44:06):
especially in the immigrant generation, and that they didn't leave
because of a push factor, but they just wanted to
try something new. That's very universal, right, It's like just
people moving through their lives and making choices. And I
think that that is true because I think about I
think my parents just wanted to come here because that
was the thing to do for educated Taiwanese Americans. It

(44:29):
wasn't like they didn't have jobs back at home. They
just wanted to do. They wanted to be like overachievers
and do what everybody and it was a trend or something,
you know. It was just if you could do it,
you do it. And none of them said that they
came here to make a better life for me. That's
not like like those stories and those tropes never resonated
with me. I mean, I grew up kind of dysfunctionally too,

(44:50):
so I never think of like I owe my parents
or anything like that. And that wasn't represented in this
story either, Right. Her mom and her just had a
great relationship. They talked about you know, I just talked
and they visited and it wasn't it wasn't a big deal.
And I think that it is a very modern representation.
There's no tension between that and there isn't any kind

(45:11):
of white worshiping in this sense because she's literally sitting
between these two people that she is you know that
she has loved and now she loves and it's just life.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Right, Yeah, Yeah, so many tropes subverted in this movie,
and again it's so refreshing.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, and it's just like effortless to what the story is.
Where I like that, I don't know. I feel like
often in stories, I'm like, I want to see this
character's dynamic with their family more, which I wouldn't have
disliked it in this story, but it felt like where
this story lies is so confidently with these three characters,

(45:50):
and more specifically these two characters, and I really appreciate how.
And it also is like it doesn't work if Celia's
song isn't an amazing writer, which she is, and there's
no I feel like there's a lot of writing that
self consciously kind of over explains, like what happened in
the interceding twelve years, but you're just showing it and

(46:14):
you know you don't know everything, but you know enough
to be deeply invested in what's going on with these characters,
because it wasn't I don't think until my second or
third viewing where I was like, I wonder.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
What are sister's up to?

Speaker 2 (46:27):
But like it's are the story is so book?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Where's Michelle? Where's Michelle?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, that's what I want, And I mean, instead of Boner,
is what's Michelle up to? But in a lesser movie
that would have pinged for me. But it's like this
movie is just completely we are with Nora, and I
really really love.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
That same And like we've mentioned, the movie cares enough
about the other characters besides Nora to really kind of
fully explore their emotions as they relate to the events
of the story in a way that I thought was
also interesting, because you know, a big component of this

(47:13):
movie is examining how Nora feels about her circumstances, but
there's also a decent emphasis on the men's feelings. And
not to talk about men on the Bechdel cast, but
these are two men who I think are i would say,
more emotionally intelligent and expressive than a typical Hollywood movie

(47:39):
male character, and I really appreciated that. I was so
blown away by the scene where Nora and her husband
Arthur are having a conversation where she has just come
from her first day of hanging out with Heysong and
Arthur says is he attractive? And she's like, yeah, I

(48:01):
think so, and then he's like, well, are you attracted
to him, and then she like pauses to ponder this
and then says, I don't think so. It's just that
he was, you know, a memory from my childhood, and
then he was an image on my laptop and now
he's a physical person and that's very intense. But I

(48:23):
don't think it's attraction. And you can tell that Arthur
isn't necessarily like thrilled about this situation, and he seems
insecure about it. But I also feel like he's handling
it fairly maturely. He doesn't fly into a jealous rage,
which is what I'm accustomed to seeing in real life

(48:43):
and in movies, which is really more of an indication
of the low bar for men's behavior than it is
for anything else.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
But right, because he's not perfect either, and I think
that that's equally important. You can tell he's insecure, you
can tell when he feels awkward and out of place,
and even at some point times I think annoyed. I'm
sure every viewer feels a little different about his reactions,
and I kind of felt different from viewing to viewing,
where sometimes I'm like, ah, that I get Wyatt, and

(49:11):
the other times I'm just like, let them have their
moment get.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Out leave, yeah, get out of the way. But all
this to say that I felt like that conversation between
the two of them was one of the most honest
and mature conversations I've seen on screen between a married couple.
Kind of Ever, like characters are never that honest and
open with each other about because you would normally see, oh,

(49:37):
are you attracted to him? Of course not. No, I
only have eyes for you, baby, You're the only person
I've ever been attracted to, and blah blah blah. And
it's just like, that's not real life. Conversations like that
might happen, but it's between people who aren't mature enough
to be open and honest with each other and to
accept other people's honesty. I was like blown away by

(49:58):
how profoundly honest and open it was. I loved it.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yeah, and it was real if for people who have
healthy long term relationships, right, it's I definitely. I actually
with my partner, my husband, and we've been married many,
many years, over two decades, and thank you, and I
have actually had a very similar conversation like they did.
And because if it's based on mutual respect, you don't

(50:26):
want to accuse someone you know, ye, you've known forever,
but you want to ask those questions just to make
sure because of that, you know, that tiny bit of doubt,
and also making sure things are appropriate, right, but that's
negotiable as well, right if you trust each other. And
I think that it is realistic, and I'm sure it's
probably based on what happened right in her in her

(50:48):
real life. And that's and I think that's the beauty
of this film. It resonates so much because I think
it is rooted in reality rather than, like you said,
these Hollywood tropes. But you know what's really interesting is
that at the very very end, you know how Arthur
waits for Nora. I was talking to someone and they said, oh,
it's because he didn't trust her, and I was like, oh,

(51:09):
that's not how I read it at all. I thought
he was waiting for her because he knew she would
be emotional and would need support. But this is the
whole Jamie, what you were saying that you know, a
lot is left unsead. So you know, this person I
was talking to know had a totally different interpretation of that,
because you don't even hear them say anything. You just
hear it. You just see him holding her as she's

(51:29):
you know, bawling at the end, and it's like I
thought he was standing for all of us who are bolling,
Like I need that hung too, Arthur, because this lovely
man just left and I don't know what to do.
And so yeah, so I think this, I don't know
people's expectations of what, Yeah, the jealous husband is supposed
to look like.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Totally yeah. And he describes it in this like fictional
Hollywood version of the story that could play it out
in a very Hollywood way where it's, you know, two
people reconnect after a long time and discover their love
for each other again and the woman leaves her evil
husband to be with her childhoods sweetheart and that's like

(52:13):
again the very like fantasy Hollywood version of that story.
And he's like joking about it because like this movie
is the antithesis of like a typical Hollywood narrative like that.
And again, like.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Selin Song finds these really funny visuals that she doesn't
call out, but like the scene where Nora comes home
and she's had one of the most emotionally challenging days
of her life, reconnecting with Haysong and her husband is
gaming and you're just like, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
He's playing Call of Booty or something.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Right, and you're just like that he's trying to distract himself.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
I was thinking, you know, he really needed because he's
like thinking about, you know, his wife out. Yeah, exactly,
so he has to game in order to like distract himself.
That I thought that was my interpretation of that. Yeah, totally. Again,
it's just like.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Showing, not telling of like, Okay, they are both having
a day. And also it's just like kind of this
domestic scene and getting back to what you were talking about, Nancy,
about their relationship. There were moments in and yeah, I think,
you know, there's like an understandable tendency to project your
own relationship history onto this movie. But I really appreciated

(53:31):
that they had enough mutual respect that when he asked
her challenging questions, where it probably would have been more
calming or and more soothing to hear the like, no,
it's nothing, I feel nothing, like Nora is like I
don't know, like I'm trying to figure out how I
feel about it. I'm not sure, and like doesn't give

(53:53):
the reflexive comfort that I think in a lot of
hetero relationships, women are conditioned to give men of just
and that does go both ways, but I think more
so in that direction of like well, no, of course,
and like rest assured blah blah blah. And but instead
this is like a true partnership that is going to

(54:13):
have to weather some challenging shit, and that he is
considerate enough of her to know that, like he can't
understand the set of emotions she's navigating, and what his
job is is to be present for her in the
way that she needs. And that's like his test here,

(54:34):
and I think he does his best. I don't know,
and I agree with your read at the end, Nancy
that it's just like I'm sure he was a little anxious,
but it's also like, I mean, if there's any time
you're gonna need a hug, that's the time.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah. And when he's sitting next to her on the bar,
just kind of sitting and letting the two of them
talk bout in of itself, I thought was a was
really showing his support.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
For sure. So many straight white men would do whatever
they could to try to insert themselves into that situation
and just like be obnoxious about it, but he's like.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
He's sitting there thinking about the plot of Boner two.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Laying his gaming.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Call of Duty highlights, just playing passively in his mind
or touches like lot. Even though they, like all three
of them, are in not easily navigated situation, it's weirdly soothing,
I think, to see characters in a movie and just
know that you're like, everyone is doing their best. Everyone's

(55:42):
doing their best, and it's nice even though it's like
it's an impossible thing to do perfectly, because there's no
such thing as a perfect way for this scenario to go.
But everyone's doing their best, and that made me feel
even though it's a difficult watch if you're not emotionally
prepared for it, it is nice to feel like, well,

(56:04):
these three characters did their absolute best to get through
it with respect for themselves and for the other people,
which is just kind of a rare thing to.

Speaker 3 (56:15):
See totally, because with his song, he is a character
who even from childhood, he is sensitive, he's easily emotionally affected,
but you also see him like maturing over the years
as far as like how he processes and expresses his emotions,

(56:36):
and I'm not saying he's necessarily like a beacon of
emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
But what man is?

Speaker 3 (56:43):
What man is? Number one? Number two, We are so
used to seeing men on screen who are extremely emotionally repressed,
and that doesn't come from nothing. Obviously, there's a real
life precedent for that. Or we see a man who's
you know, made emotion that they express is aggression. But

(57:04):
we see this character who is far more sensitive than
you know, your typical male movie character, where when he's
learning that Nyong is moving away, he's visibly upset by it.
He's like trying his best to comfort her in different
situations and be supportive, but he's also twelve and he

(57:26):
doesn't really know how to navigate that. And then when
he's in his twenties, there's a scene where he's out
drinking with his friends and one of them is upset
because he's just broken up with his girlfriend, and I
Sung embraces him and he's like, let it out, buddy,
It's okay to cry, and I'm like, that's such a
nice thing to see. And then different times he tells

(57:51):
Nora like, it wasn't a joke for me to look
for you. I actually missed you. And I tried really hard.
And when she tells him she wants to stop speaking
for a while, he starts like softly crying, and then
he goes, why am I like this? Because he's, you know,
a man navigating having emotions in a patriarchal world which

(58:11):
encourages men to not express their emotions, and so you know,
I understand his reaction, but you know, he's like openly upset,
but also respecting her boundaries, which is a thing we
also never see men doing. Yes, And then finally, you know,
when they reunite in their thirties, I think they must
be like thirty six. He is talking about, you know,

(58:33):
how sad he was when she abruptly left, and how
he didn't know it would be this hard to see
how much she likes her husband, But he's also acknowledging that, like,
this is where you're supposed to be, Nora like, and
I feel like he's implying that any hope he has
of them being together or winding up together, he knows

(58:58):
is unrealistic. And again, that's such a mature way to
handle that whole situation, And it was really encouraging for
me to see these two different characters who are men
handling these complicated situations with the level of maturity and
emotional intelligence that they display.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
So no red flags. There's just two green flag men I.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Know, which is like God. Then it becomes like a
fantasy genre when in my life has there been two
good options interesting?

Speaker 3 (59:37):
Usually there are zero.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Yes, no.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
But I really appreciate like, even though Hey, Sung, I
think like says much less because we're navigating Nora's relationships centrally.
It's interesting on the rewatch when you sort of stop,
can remove yourself from the like pie and wanting these
two characters to be together and like, you can see

(01:00:04):
it a little more clearly of how the types of
attachments they have to each other. Where it seems like
for Nora, Hayesung is representative of both her childhood and
her home, and in the reverse, Nora seems to represent
sort of this I don't know, I mean because I

(01:00:25):
feel like I've had versions of this experience of someone
who exists in your brain only as a kid, and
there's all of this potential for yourself that you attached
to people that you knew when you were younger. And
because we know that he doesn't seem quite as sure
of his professional path as Nora does. He feels like,

(01:00:46):
I mean, he's doing well, but there are insecurities he
feels about his income, about his career. It seems like
in the professional sense he feels a little more untethered
than Nora does, who is very confident and passionate that
this is she's doing the right thing. And again, it's
just like the writing in this movie is fucking incredible
because it's never stated, but you can.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
The more I watched it, the more it was like, Oh,
there's like a part of him that is like when
I was close with her when I was a child,
I had all of this potential and none of this uncertainty,
and it's like a longing to reconnect with that too.
Or I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, but I
was like, I've definitely thought.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
That I totally agree because I think that he says
that he keeps track of her prizes that she wants
to win. Right, you know, what's what's the prize you
want now, Pulitzer, A you know, a whatever whatever? Then yes, yes, exactly,
And it's I feel like he was living a little
bit vicariously through her and maybe she represents something aspirational,

(01:01:52):
and he does ask would I have looked for you
if you hadn't left? Like, would he feel the same way.
It's like she presents something that, yeah, like a unfulfilled
aspiration life that he might have had. And that is
so universal, right, it's kind of like, you know, unfulfilled wishes.

(01:02:14):
So I love that, Jamie, because I think I see
that now. I didn't think about his his I think
I just saw everything from you know, Nora's perspective and
really centered on her, which is great because we don't
even have enough films or we could do that. Yeah,
and so why not? So do I even care about
why he likes her and why why her husband is
you know, playing games is still there. I didn't even

(01:02:37):
care about his book. That's how little like about their perspectives.
I didn't even see the boner, didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Fare We're weird for noticing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
No, no, no, you know it's it was because I
really was just I was able to see myself, I think,
in Naura and and that's so rare, and to be
able to kind of just fully love that part was
just exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yeah, and I feel like it just like speaks to
how strong this movie is. That you can look almost
anywhere in terms of like what character you're giving deference to,
and you're viewing where you're like and it's like a
rewarding and like heart wrenching experience no matter where you're looking.
And I cannot wait for Selene Sung to make a

(01:03:26):
million movies, as many movies as she wants. This is
just a fun fact I did not know about her
because I didn't know much about her before this movie
came out. That she I mean, because this is sort
of an auto fiction kind of screenplay. She is a playwright,
but that during Lockdown she directed a live production of

(01:03:47):
Chekhov's The Seagull using the SIMS four on Twitch And
I just think that's one of the best sentences I've
ever read. And so few people manage should do something
artistically fun and interesting during lockdown, and I was like, Wow,
she really is the goat. How does the brain think

(01:04:09):
of that perfect idea?

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
Tell me about it. I just have a couple stray observations,
which the first one being I appreciated seeing a married
couple who are in their mid thirties who don't have kids,
and there's no mention of them trying to have kids. Obviously,
I'm not sure what this fictional couple's future holds. Maybe

(01:04:31):
they'll have kids down the road. But as a child
free by choice adult myself, I appreciate seeing on screen
representation of other child free adults who are close to
my age. So stray observation number one. Another thing I

(01:04:52):
would say, like, maybe my only note for this movie
is that Nora and Haisan calling each other something in
Korean that translates to a pretty ablest word in English.
I don't know if it has the same ablest connotation
in Korean, but I guess just a reminder that, you know,

(01:05:14):
we on the podcast encourage people to be mindful of
the language they use, and even if it is in
a joking context, to be aware of anything that has
ablest under or overtones. So that's my little speech about that.
And then the third and final thing I have for

(01:05:35):
this movie is this Onions have layers.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
I knew that's just gonna happen.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
And Indians have layers.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
I knew it. As like I didn't want to do
it at the beginning, but I'm like Caitlin, I trust
I'd see this speaks to our Inian and our deep
connection that I knew you were going to bring it
to Shrek and it was really just a matter of time.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
It was a matter of time, and I saved it
for the end. And yes, you're welcome everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Were we actually going to talk about whether it passes
the Buchdel test?

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
Yes, we can do that now, unless you have anything
else you'd like to say about the movie before we
start to wrap up.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Oh gosh. I thought that it deserved Best Picture. I
knew it wouldn't because of the momentum, but instead they
rewarded a film about men behaving really.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Badly to say the least.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
Yeah, yeah, Toddler esque backstabbing. And I thought, because there
were a lot of talk about why maybe Past Lives
was going to be looked over because it had no
real conflict and no real toxicity. And I thought, and
then that's when it made me realize, Wow, Appenheimer is
all about toxicity, right that to me, the whole relationships

(01:06:52):
between all the men were how they were going to
screw each other over. And I realized that that's not
a movie for me. That's not a movie that I'm
attracted to. I don't like that watching that it doesn't
give me any pleasure and it doesn't make society a
better place. So I really felt that that contrast between
exactly what we're talking about today, that kind of emotional
maturity of the men and just relationships in general, and

(01:07:15):
the objuctification of course of women you know, in that movie,
and I just thought, Wow, we're not going to give
it to the healthy, wonderful representation that actually can you know,
elevate our world. But anyway, that was that was my
thought about the Awards season. Yeah, it did win Best
Independent Film though.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
Award, So yes, I was like, they would never let
two good movies win in a row. And so because
everything everywhere, all at once won Best Picture in twenty
twenty three, I'm like, whatever win's in twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Four, it's not going to be for me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
That was my prediction. And you know, the Oscars are dogshit.
But yeah, in terms of of the Bexel test, I
believe it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Is a pass.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
Yes, it passes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
Nora talks to her mom about you know, her English
name that she chooses. They also talk later when Nora
is in her twenties, and the conversation does quickly turn
to like, oh, let me look up this boy I
had a crush on. So you know, it's not necessarily
a movie that passes constantly or consistently. It's pretty fleeting moments.

(01:08:30):
But also, like again, as we always talk about, a
movie can like not pass the Bechdel Test or barely pass,
and it can still be a poignant, thoughtful feminist movie
with good representation, right, And many movies that do pass
the Bechdel Test can still be problematic pieces of shit.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
So yeah, like kind of due by accident are like
not thoughtfully Yeah, I mean there's nothing more. I feel
like we have to say this every so often just
to remind people because I will never forget over the
like whatever dust up on Twitter where people were like
Fire Island doesn't pass the Bechdel Test, and you're like, god,
oh my god, Like it is not the law, but spiritually,

(01:09:15):
I sometimes I'm just like the Bechdel test is a
more of a vibe check, which this movie passes handily
because yeah, you get the technical past when Nora talks
with her mom. But also this is a movie that
is written and directed by a woman, that centers on
a woman's experiences, thoughts, feelings, relationships. Yeah, no, notes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
There's also there's a beautiful scene on the airplane between
Nyong and her sister. That's right, and they are speaking
in English with each other, how are you? I am fine?
And you and you and you. I feel like that
scene in of itself should be embodying the Bechdel Test
in that because that scene represents their relationship. Also this

(01:10:04):
huge transition that they're going to make between you know,
immigrating from Korea to America, and the kind of humor,
but also yeah, just kids trying to make light of
something that is gonna it's like a huge thing that's
going to change their lives forever. Right, So I thought
she really is an amazing writer because, yeah, that one
little scene of them practicing English and laughing about the

(01:10:27):
kind of I don't know, I think anyone who's taken
any kind of language course can really relate where you
kind of are silly on a very basic level with
a new language. And it's a way to kind of
assuage the anxiety you may have about, you know, having
to try something new and communicate with people that you
know how you're gonna barely be able to communicate with,

(01:10:49):
and the safety of doing that with a sister. Really,
I think captures all of that so beautifully. So that
scene no boys, no men, no one, you know, and
then it's not you're gonna get a transition to that.
It's really just about the two of them. I thought
that was a really beautiful, beautiful scene.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you for reminding me of that. I
almost forgot about that scene, but it's so adorable.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
It's so tender. The last thing I wanted to shout
out with this movie is because I feel like sometimes
we kind of forget to shout out the crew, and
Cillian Song worked with an incredibly diverse crew in terms
of gender, in terms of race. I mean, it's just
like it really seems like it was and just based
on what I read and saw about behind the scenes,
just like a really beautiful group effort. And also for

(01:11:36):
all my twenty twelve heads out there, if you were
a fan of the band Grizzly Bear, which I was
when I was in college, they did the score for
this movie, So yeah, that's the shout out for my
college radio heads.

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):
Very nice.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
And I think the producer, the big producer, is the
same producer that did Paris as well. Yes, so I
thought that was amazing, Like, oh wow, Parasite and Past Lives,
it's kind of very different movies. Yeah, but it's like
that woman can really spot them, you know, in terms
of great, great films.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
And then the cinematographer, I hope I'm getting his name
right as Shabi or Kirchner, who most famously works with
Steve McQueen as well and almost exclusively in features. And
I want to chut this out because I feel like,
you know, he is a male cinematographer who almost exclusively
works with women directors, which is again just a rare find.

(01:12:36):
So a shout out to him for being able to
work with women. Most men are bad at that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:43):
Certainly. That brings us to our metric, the famous nipple scale,
the most important metric of all time, a scale where
we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on
examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. And I'm going
to give this movie the full five nipples. A rare

(01:13:06):
instance on the show, but this is a movie that
not only centers a woman, it centers a woman of color,
It centers an immigrant. It is written and directed by
a woman who also has that exact experience and that
is why the movie is so well handled and thoughtfully done.

(01:13:31):
And yeah, I love just the exploration of Nora and
her journey with her experience as an immigrant, and also
the two men around her. Again not to be like, wow,
the male characters are awesome, but in this movie, like,
they're really thoughtfully written and characterized in a way that

(01:13:55):
I found to be really refreshing. And I hope that
men see this movie and learn a thing or two
from it. So yeah, so much to like, so many
things that were so well done about this movie. So
I'm gonna give it five nipples, and I'm gonna give
them to Selene's Song and Greta Lee and also Nora's

(01:14:19):
little sister Michelle.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Yeah, I'm going the full five two no reason not
to write whatever pleasure to get to say that. No,
it's this movie. I mean, we've talked it out, but
just it is so beautiful. It just made me so
excited to see more of Celene Song's work and to
see someone just like put a thoughtful, effortless story on screen.

(01:14:43):
The performances are wonderful, all the tactical elements are wonderful,
but it doesn't work if Selene Song isn't an incredible
and thoughtful filmmaker. And so that is why I'm giving
all five nipples to well, Okay, I'm gonna split in half.
Half of them go to Cilli and Sog and the
other half go to the seagull on the SIMS four.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
Yes, of course, yes, Nancy, how about you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
I'm gonna also do five nipples and five boners for
the for the good men that have shown us how
men can support women in a way that is healthy
and certainly centered on her, and I appreciate that. I
think that's why the the you know, we are drawn

(01:15:29):
to these portraits of men because they are so supportive
of her and they allow her to kind of have
her full emotional journey and not getting her away. So
you know, I think that's all we can ask of,
you know, our our friends and family members and loved ones,
is to be supportive of our emotional journey. So absolutely,

(01:15:52):
so yeah, everything y'all said about the intersectional, it's in
an authentic way, in a way that is that feels real,
that hasn't been seen before, that isn't white centered, that
isn't male centered. But it doesn't ignore them, right, it
doesn't try to preach anything. It is just by being
real and centered on real, you know, emotionally pretty healthy

(01:16:15):
mature adults, it portrays something that is unfortunately lacking in cinema.
So but at least it was nominated for Best Picture,
so I hope more people see it. I remember giving
a talk at at Belmont University in Nashville and saying
that Past Lives was the best film that I had

(01:16:37):
seen that year, and then I said, who else, who
else has seen this? And then a white man, a
white you know, student, raised his hand and I said,
what did you think of the film? He's like, I
thought it was the best film of the year. And
I said, see, it's not just me an Asian woman
that makes this. This white this fine white gentleman also
believes the same. So I love that right that we

(01:16:58):
shared the same opinion about this movie because it spoke
to us, and maybe for him, he's like, I want
to see, you know, role models that I can relate to,
or men that cry because I cry, you know, whatever
it is that he related to, or maybe just good storytelling,
whatever it is, right, I think, Yeah, really great films
can speak to everyone across different different groups, and hopefully again.

(01:17:20):
Make our society, you know, better behaved and more supportive
of one another in a community.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
We can only hope.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
God, I mean this. I know we're wrapping up, but yeah,
you saying emotionally mature adults in a movie. I'm like, yeah,
that is another very rare thing, because there I mean,
I love messy characters. But yeah, so many movies are
adults behaving like children, and this is adult's mature adult
navigating messiness. Rare, a perfect movie. There you heard it.

(01:17:52):
Everyone gave Past Lives five nipples. It's a perfect movie.
If you haven't seen it, you have to. If you
have seen it, turn this off and go watch it again.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
Yes, but before you do that, Nancy, thank you so
much for joining us for this wonderful discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
Yes, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
Come back anytime. And where can people find your work
you're writing? Follow you on any social media, plug anything
you'd like to plug.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
Oh my goodness, that's such a funny question. Now that
social media has changed. I used to always say follow
me on Twitter, and now it's like social media talk
about some emotionally immature I feel like, behaving like children.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
Yes, the people that actually are in charge of social media,
but you can find me on my website where you
can download this article, the article we talked about on LLE,
my interview with selling Song, as well as just links
to my books and reports and all sorts of stuff.
So it's Nancy whyutin dot com and I am Nancy

(01:18:58):
why you eat in one? That's my handle for wherever
you are so excellent. Oh, in my book Real Inequality. Sorry,
my book is Real Inequality Hollywood actors and racism. It's
about experiences, not just actors, but just Hollywood racism in general.
I'm actually in the process of updating it so perhaps

(01:19:22):
and hopefully for like a maybe a ten year follow
up that will be coming out. I'm also writing a
memoir based on the TV shows and films I watched
growing up, as well as the Asian American films. I
may be working past lives into my memoir actually, because
it really did speak so much to my own understanding

(01:19:42):
of immigration, and so many films like The Farewell and
Minari and now this film really speaking too maybe helping
me process my own immigration trauma so much. So just movies,
you know, can help you do that. In their best
they can be cathartic, they can be revelatory, So I
think that's that's what films about are truly doing the work.

(01:20:05):
And all the things that I listed all autobiographical.

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
Right, Yeah, and they all came out within the past
like three years, which is roughly indicative of a like
trend of there being far more stories like this and
stories about underrepresented people and communities. So thank you again
for joining us. I really appreciate it. Come back anytime,
bring any movie.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Thank you so much fun, so much fun. Well, I
will talk about everything everywhere all at once if you want to,
because there are so many similar things, right in terms
of you know, not a supportive male figures and yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:44):
I know. And in the meantime, you can follow us
on mostly Instagram these days. At Bechdel Cast, you can
go to our Patreon aka Matreon. We have two bonus
episodes that come out every month there on a fun
little theme that we cook up and it's five dollars

(01:21:04):
a month, and that's at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast,
and our link tree is where you can find a
lot of other goodies that we have going on.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Yeah, and uh, with that, you can get our merch
at tipable dot com slash v Bechdel Cast and we
will be back, same time, same place next week. See
you then, see you then bye bye.

Speaker 3 (01:21:34):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Caitlin Dorante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Volskrosenski. Our logo and merch
is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to
Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

(01:21:57):
linktree slash Bechdel Cast