Shrek Forever After

Jamie and Caitlin are kicking off 2024 with a very *Shrekian* episode on Shrek Forever After!

(This episode contains spoilers)

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We're doing live shows in early February in San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego!

Grab tickets at linktr.ee/bechdelcast! 

Also, check out Caitlin's upcoming screenwriting classes at caitlindurante.com/classes, and buy Jamie's books, Raw Dog -- https://read.macmillan.com/lp/raw-dog-by-jamie-loftus/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have
women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, z
EFFI bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to the Shrektel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
Whoas twenty twenty four baby nothing matters anymore and we're
rebranding women. It's over intersectionality.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
It's all about Shreks now, it's all.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
About Shrek hates being a father. After one week, it's
so hard, it stinks. We don't like it. Oh, raising
my own children. I feel fucking sick in my head.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
What would the Shrektel test be? Oh?

Speaker 3 (00:54):
I think this? Okay? I was gonna make an argument
that this movie really passes attractile test because it's like,
how many Shreks are talking to each other about being
Shrek in this movie. Like there's a whole sequence whereas
just like Shreks are talking to Shreks are talking to Shreks,
and they're talking about liberating Shreks. I'm like, this is like,

(01:15):
this is the Shrek Dell test.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
All.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
It was like it's almost like you know when you
see seeing in a Marvel movie that it's like, oh,
someone told Kevin Faigey about the Bechdel Test, and now
he's like, well, just have something, have something, and it
feels forced. It was like that, but with like four
hundred Shreks.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
I there's a John ham Shrek. There's a unbelieveable Craig
Robinson Shrek.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
There is a Craig Robinson Shrek. There's a Kristin Shawl Shrek.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
No witch, but there is a everyone is Jane Lynch's Shrek.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
There is a Jane Lynch Shrek. And if that's not
twenty ten, tell me what is.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
I mean? Seriously, the witches have green skin. You think
there would be solid among the witches and the Shreks.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
And I have some thoughts on that, and I have
some thoughts on that. And also like the randomest man
in the world, Walt Dorn, who no offense to Walt Dorn,
but who are you? It's baffling. Anyways, He's truly some guy.
He like works in animation and they're like, you're fun,

(02:23):
and it's like he, I mean, whatever, whatever. This is
a main feed. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name's
Jimmie Loftis.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
My name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show
where we examine movies through an intersectional feminis lens. Before
we even get into more details about that, the Shrek sinle?
What Intershrek sinle? Excuse me, I can't try to say
Intershrek sinle?

Speaker 3 (02:50):
No feminist lens.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Do you see your isaacly I did see it and
I loved it.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
Thank you Aten.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Before we talk any more about intertrectionality, yep, I would
love to plug the tour that we have coming up. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
So you might have already heard listeners that Jamie and
I are going on tour and it's for the most
part a tour where we are covering the movie Barbie,

(03:21):
so get excited. We are doing shows in San Francisco
for SF Sketch Fest on February first, then we're scooping
over to Sacramento. We're doing a show on Barbie that
unfortunately is already sold out, but we are doing a
second show on the Wolf of Wall Street because we're like,
we got to double up on Margot Robbie movies.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
Which is such a confusing thing to pair with Barbie
that it is not yet sold out and you could
still get tickets to it.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, Well, we were like, should we do Oppenheimer And
then we were unanimously like, no, we should not, thank you,
so we're doing Wolf of Wall Street instead. There are
still tickets available to that show in Sacramento on February second.
On February third, we will be in Dallas covering Barbie.
Still tickets to that show available. On February fifth, we

(04:10):
will be in Austin, and then we're scooting back to
California to do a show in San Diego on February tenth,
and all of those shows are also us covering Barbie,
and we're gonna have a blast. We have so much
fun during the live shows. We do extra things. We
do slide shows, we do games, we wear fun outfits.

(04:32):
There's lots of goofs. We usually eat on stage, you know,
things like that.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
There's always a meet and greed afterwards. There's tour exclusive birch.
It's a blast and actually I feel like to transition
back to the main episode that today we'll have a
similar vibe because they tend to be kind of chaotic
and fun. We like to cover fun movies live and
we also love to cover fun but also socially impactful

(04:58):
movies to start the But if you would like to
get tickets to that that tour, which you should, Yes,
you can go to the link in the bio or
go to link tree our link tree which is l
I n K t R dot ee slash Bechdel Cast
pain in the ass. Well worth it and we'll see

(05:18):
you at the show.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah. But now back to Shrek.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Back to the Shrektel cast. Yeah, okay, so this is
it's interesting. I feel like, because our show has been
around for so long, we're reaching the end of a
lot of franchises we've been covering for for many years.
I mean, we fortunately they made a season two of
the Santa claus Is for us to cover with Grace

(05:41):
this year. But you know, for a while, it seemed
like we were we were gonna be out right, and
we have. We still have the Puss and Booth spin offs.
But this is the final canonical Shrek movie we have
not covered on the show. We're covering Shrek now forever after.
Should we tell people what the Buckdel cast test is?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, we already discussed the Shrektel test, and I think
that covers it now. Yeah, the show is named after
the Bechdel Test, although we only ever use it as
a jumping off point to initiate larger conversations about representation
and intersectionality.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
And the truth.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
And it is a media metric created by Allison Bechdel
along with her pal Liz Wallace, and so it's often
called the Bechdel Wallace Test. It was a test that
first appeared in Allison Bechdel's Duck to Watch Out For
in the eighties, examining how women rarely speak to each

(06:40):
other in movies, and specifically queer women in the representation
of them in mainstream cinema. So that was what the
test was originally. There are many versions of it. Ours
is this, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names?
Do they speak to each other? And is their conversation

(07:02):
about something other than a man? And we especially like
it if the conversation has some kind of like narrative
oomph to.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
It, a little hoof, a little oof, a little fun.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah. So yes, that is the Bechdel Test. Not to
be confused with the Shrektel test, which.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
We already we don't even need to talk about it
again because we already know that this movie heartily passes heavily.
But yeah, today we are talking about Shrek Forever after
Shrek four. Many call it Shrek Forever after it was
released in twenty ten, which I know because I went
on a date to see this movie in high school.

(07:46):
Thank you very much. It made three quarters of a
billion dollars, which is a really shocking statistic for a
movie that is both eighty minutes long and horrible, not
very good. I would say this is the weakest installed.
It's the weakest installment for me by a country mile.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Really, It's just I find Shrek the Third to be
a lot less.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Enjoyable Shrek the Third. I mean, I guess that this
one is mercifully shorter.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's not even they're both like eighty one minutes long.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, wow, Okay, I mean I guess I the third
one is with Arty right ARTI pendrive.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Justin Timberlake, isn't it?

Speaker 3 (08:26):
For some reason, the justin Timberlake one is pretty bad.
I still feel like Shrek four takes it for me, uh,
just because of the internal messaging. I feel like, you know,
in Shrek one, and we've talked about this show, how
Shrek changed everything. And I'm just quoting James Gun when
I say that, Yeah, yeah, of course Shrek changed everything.

(08:48):
And I think that that is unfortunately, whether you like
it or not, that is true. Yeah, Shrek changed children's
entertainment for a long time, forever after, even forever after.
It ain't ogre till it's ogre to quote the poster
of this movie.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
But the tagline of the movie.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Unfortunately, Yes, because this was marketed as the final chapter. Oh,
that's which I mean in terms of canonical Shrek movies,
it's the you know, it's been fourteen years now, it's
been fourteen years and I can still smell the fresh farts. Wow.
We have options, But in any case, I feel like

(09:29):
this franchise starts with like Fiona, who, as we've talked
about over the years, is she a you know, perfect
feminist character. No, but I feel like she is like disenfranchised.
Does the movies go on like Shrek One Fiona is
the best Fiona, and then we just see her like
wifified and in Shrek Forever After, which we'll talk about,

(09:52):
we see an alternate reality Fiona where she is more empowered. Yes,
but also there's all I don't know I think that
this the Shrek Forever After kind of fucked with my
head because we just covered because we're recording this in
late December, we just did our live show about It's
a Wonderful Life, and I'm just bowled over with how

(10:13):
many feature films there are about how the world would
be a shithole if one man didn't exist. I just
don't buy it.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Okay, we're on the same wavelength as per usual. Because
I finished this movie, I was like, Wow, that was
just the exact same plot as It's a Wonderful Life. However,
which movie do I like more? I think that Shrek
Forever After is a better movie than It's a Wonderful Life.
And I know that is probably one of the most
controversial statements ever made, But I have a master's degree

(10:44):
in film and screenwriting, which I would never mention, but
it does give me the credibility to say that, and
you have to believe me, and you have to agree
with me because of my credentials.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
I respect your a pion, Yeah, thank you so much,
our respect your opinion. This movie stinks. This movie is stinky,
stinky poop poop. But but who's going to argue with
a quarter billion or three quarters of a billion dollars.
I have one last thing to say before we talk

(11:17):
about this. For over an hour, I was thinking about
the year twenty ten, right, Obama's first term. Yeah, remember
that in any case, Shrek as a popular You know,
this is a decade that Shrek owns true, right, Yes,
but things in movies are shifting. Shrek Forever After did

(11:37):
it make seven hundred and fifty six million dollars. It
sure did, But that is less money than Shrek the
Third Maid and even less money than Shrek two made.
Wo So Shrek's on the downturn.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
And also four movies in a decade, that's a lot.
That's a lot. That's you know, we've maybe reached peak
Shrek saturation. We've also I've got Kung Fu Panda, right,
We've got other DreamWorks that comes out in two thousand
and eight, kind of coming for Shrek's Crown, that comes
up between Shrek the Third and Shrek Forever After. But
most pertinently, and I feel like you know where I'm

(12:13):
going with this. Oh, I already know a very important
movie comes out in twenty ten, and I would say
derails Shrek's chances at being a powerful franchise for over
a decade. Okay, maybe even a more dominant species. I mean,
do you know what movie I'm talking about?

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Obviously you're talking about Despicable Me starring the Minions.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yes, I had to check because I also went on
a date in high school to see Despicable of Me.
Of course, because when I was in high school I
was ten.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Okay, I don't know if you remember this, but I
went back and re listened to our Shrek the Third
episode in which you very publicly and openly say that
you got fingered during the screen of Shrek the Third
in the theater.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
I wasn't going to bring that up today because New
Year knew me. But you're right, I have to No, no, no,
don't edit it out. I need to own my past.
You're right, and you would be right to say it.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Wow. I really don't know how to look out for
myself whatsoever. Okay, So running the numbers, Running the numbers,
because a little film called Despicable Me comes out in
twenty ten. Let's see how close they came out together. Okay,
Despicable Me starring of course grew in Le Mignon's that
comes out June ninth. Shrek Forever After, I think would

(13:42):
come out a little earlier. Yes, April May, in wide
release May twenty first.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
That's my sister's birthday.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Wow, she must have been so thrilled this year.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yes, she was.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
So they come out within a month of each other.
Now I'm looking at domestic gross because Shrek Forever After
it's got global clout, right, so it takes despicable me
over in worldwide gross, but domestic grows. Something fascinating happens.
Despicable me edges. Shrek for Americans are done with this guy.

(14:17):
American said, no, we won't give him any more than
two hundred and thirty eight million dollars, seven hundred and
thirty six, seven hundred eighty seven dollars. Okay, But these
new guys, the Minions, they're like, wait, big Green guy,
more like little little Yellow guy, because they give the
minions two hundred and fifty one million, five hundred and

(14:39):
thirteen thousand, nine hundred and eighty five dollars just a
smidge more.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Uh huh.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
And I just think that's it. There's sort of like
a changing of the because Shrek changed everything. But also
you gotta hang up that leather vest at some point.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Pals It's true. Well, and now we are in minion era.
We are in the minion era Shrek era over except
I know if you google is Shrek five happening? I
know the answer is Shrek five is slated to come
out in twenty twenty five, So we are actually not

(15:15):
done with Shrek.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
And I'm I'm thrilled and I think I honestly, as
I was watching this movie, I was telling my boyfriend
was like, I really think if Shrek came back after
fifteen years and he's been on a fascinating I mean,
and I'm not going to get into my history of
the Shrek culture. I know I've done on the show before,
but he'd been on this fascinating journey where he's like
kind of a big joke but also so beloved that

(15:39):
I feel like Shrek would be Shrek five would make
a billion dollars if it was good. If it was good,
it would make a billion dollars if it.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Was like Shrek two quality.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
Exactly, or even I mean, I think we can even
dream bigger the last Oh yeah, and also I wanted
to say, the next highest grossing movie after Despicable Me
was inception. I just thought that was funn.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Oh wow, I think.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
And also the minions have been you know, dominant for
you know, over ten years, going on fifteen years now,
so it's it's time for a challenger to enter the ring.
Certainly not gonna be Secret Life of motherfucking Pets, I'll
tell you that much boo toy story for dogs. Try harder.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah. Well, anyway, okay, so you what's your history for
Shrek four. I had never seen it before. This was
the only Shrek installment that I well, not including I
haven't seen the first Puss and Boots movie. I famously
love Puss and Boots the Last Wish, which came out
in late twenty twenty two.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
I finally saw it a couple of weeks ago. It's great.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Do you think, isn't it so good? It's really good,
and it's beautiful. It's so well animated. Yeah, Visually it's amazing,
Narratively it's amazing. Thematically, it's amazing. I love that movie. Anyway,
I had never seen Shrek four because yeah, by the
time time twenty ten rolled around, I think I did
have Shrek fatigue, and yeah, I just wasn't we were

(17:07):
suffering enthusiastic about it anymore. So I didn't see it.
So yeah, that's my short history with Shrek Forever after.
But you saw it in theaters?

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yes, I did, and I have nothing else to say.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Cool cool, cool, All right, Well, Shelby dive deeper into
it and do the recap.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Oh I guess I should say I also did not
like this movie when it came out. In my opinion
has not been unfortunately, you know, time has not healed
that wound for me. I still don't like it.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
I see for me. The ranking goes as follows Shrek
two number one, Shrek one number two, Shruk four number three,
and then Shrek three number four. Wow, amazing, I'm going
to and.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Thret four, three and four are both so storid. Yeah,
they might be tied for last because I kind of
forgot about the whole the justin Timberlake of it all
that was really challenging. But I also hate, like, I
just feel like rumpel Stiltskin should just be far Quad again.
Why are we? Why are we doing rumpel Stiltskin. Can't

(18:15):
we just like give far Quad a magic wand like
I feel like it's the same.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Character Yeah, I'm just fatigued. It's annoying. Should I say
what the movie is about?

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come
back for the recap. We're back, all right? Here is
this Shrek Forever?

Speaker 3 (18:45):
After buckle In.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
The movie opens on the standard Shrek storybook opening, explaining
that Fiona's parents, the King and Queen, had locked Fiona
in a tower guarded by a dress, but as time
wore on and her curse still hadn't been broken, they
had to resort to desperate measures. So we cut to

(19:08):
the King and Queen approaching rumpel stilt Skin, voiced by
what's his name again, Walt Dorn.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
I feel so bad, but I'm like, who is this bad? It?
I mean, I guess, I guess it's kind of a
double standard because you're like, oh, who voices the minions?
Pierre Colfet, That's who. But he also is like some
random guy in animation. But he's not some random guy
and animation anymore. I mean, fortunately, Walt Dorn still some
random guy and animation where Pierre Coffin has transcended and

(19:40):
is the voice of every minion.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Wow. Amazing.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Anyways, random guy don't know, Okay.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
So they approach rumpel Stiltskin to see if he can
put an end to Fiona's curse that turns her into
an ogre at night, and rumpel Stiltskin's like, yeah, I'll
do it, and in exchange, you have to sign away
the kingdom far far away.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
These damn parents are just terrific. Maybe it's maybe it's
like commentary or something, but they just, like in each
and every movie, they mismanage and gamble their people's lives
away because they're embarrassed of their daughter's physical appearance.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
It's so bad, yep, okay. So they are about to
sign away their kingdom in exchange for like Fiona's curse
to be lifted, but just then someone comes in to
be like Princess Fiona has been saved parentheses by Shrek,
and this makes Rumpelstiltskin furious because he wants control over

(20:42):
far far away. We then cut to Shrek in his swamp.
He and Fiona are raising their three ogre babies.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
As promised at the end of Shrek the Third. Can
I just say and let me know if this is
at a pocket? I hate looking at those damn Ogre babies.
They look like shit. They're so oh I hate they
make me sick to look they look like adults.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
It's upsetting. I don't like them either.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
The least you can do when you're making animated anything
is ensure that you can make a baby version of
your character. That's cute. That's the Muppet baby law. Like,
it's not that hard. I don't think that it would
have been impossible to make a cute Shrek baby or
a cute The fact that the Donkey dragon babies also

(21:34):
look like shit scary. That's a slam dunk. That's so cute.
But they fuck it up, they fake time it up.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
I don't know what.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
I don't know what they're doing, but I know what
they aren't doing.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Uh. We see Shrek and Fiona. Of course Donkey and
Puss and Boots are also there. But the monotony and
repetitiveness of life is really getting to Shrek. Also, people
aren't scared of Ogres the way they used to be.
They're not scared of Shrek anymore, which is abundantly clear

(22:11):
when they go too far far away for Shrek and
Fiona's kids birthday party.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
There's a lot to be said about this whole, like
Shrek is fatigued of being a parent, while we're led
to believe Fiona it just comes naturally to her. We'll
talk about that. Yeah, but can I just say the
little kid who says dude, they roar, uh huh. I
was laughing.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
See, I hated him.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
Every time he said it, I was laughing.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
I hate Wow.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
That was the one laugh this movie got out of me.
And then when Shrek roars he says, I love you daddy,
I was laughing.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
I think this movie got zero laughs out of me.
Every joke Wow falls flat on its face.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
It's ivan. The movie sucks ass, but I liked with
the kids. I love your daddy, yuck. Fair enough, fair enough.
I only have an undergrad so yeah, it's just I
have simple taste.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's okay, It's okay. So anyway, the party goes horribly
wrong and no one is taking Shrek seriously, and he's like, ugh,
I wish things would just go back to the way
they were when I could do everything I wanted, whenever
I wanted. And Fiona is like, okay, ungrateful much.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, you ungrateful piece of shit? You have every like
and then she like lists out everything that's going well
with his life. I'm like, damn, I'm jealous of Shrek.
He really does have it all.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
He's he's got a lot that you would think he
would be grateful for, but he's not. And so they
both storm off in different directions. And then who does
Shrek bump into? Who had overheard this whole conversation. It's
Rumpel still skined, and he's like and.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
His big old goose. Which did you grow up with
the story of rumpel Stiltskin. I don't know what the
fuck his whole deal is.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
I do, yes, I did grow up with that story.
I don't remember him having a goose, but I do
know this story, all.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Right, I'll take it to Google. Does Rumpel stelt skin?

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (24:22):
I guess he was a character on Once upon a Time.
This is the point where someone in our is like,
someone hits our Apple podcast reviews are like, Jamie didn't
do enough research to even know if rumpel Stiltskin has
canonically has a goose. I'm not seeing goose. I'm not
seeing goose. I am seeing a page for Fifi the
Goose on Wiki Shrek.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Okay, so it seems like it's only canon to Shrek.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Lore, a Shrek innovation. Yeah wow.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Also, we did this last time too for Shrek the Third,
but we still haven't said the word Shrekian yet.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
I mean give it time.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
I mean, yeah, it'll come up organically, right, It's okay.
So Rumpelstiltskin is like, hey, Shrek, I will make a
deal with you that will let you be the ogre
that you used to be, you know, like feared. You
can do that for a day in exchange for just
any other day in your life. So Shrek would just

(25:23):
have to like give up a day from his past,
and it could be like a day when he was
a baby that he wouldn't even remember. So he's like,
sounds like a great deal to me. So Shrek signs
this contract with Rumpelstiltskin, and as soon as he does,
he is transported to this reality where sure enough everyone

(25:43):
fears him, and Shrek is loving it at first, but
then he goes to his swamp, but it's all dried
up and abandoned, and he's like, what's going on? What's
happening here? Then he is attacked and captured by a
group of witches and the next Shrek knows he's in
a carriage that's being pulled by Donkey, but Donkey does

(26:05):
not recognize him. And this is where you start to
realize that this movie and It's a Wonderful Life have
basically the same plot.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
YEP, because it's like, why is this movie coming out
in May? I honestly feel like if this movie was
just like more transparent about what it's obviously doing, I
just released it as like cause there were Shrek Christmas specials, Yeah,
I feel like I'd be less annoyed with it if
they just were like, this is like, it's a wonderful Shrek.
You're like, sure, fine, I don't know why I would

(26:35):
be less I like, but it's trying to like pass
itself off as I don't know, I just like just
say it's a wonderful Shrek or.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's a Shrekian life. It's true, and there you go.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
It's a shreky in text, it is everything about.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
That anyway, Shrek is in this alternate reality where he
never met Donkey, where far far Away is in shambles,
and they.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
Also imply that if Shrek didn't break this stigma against Ogres,
that the Ogres would be extremely oppressed. Like without Shrek,
the ogres are like a severe underclass in society to
the point where they have to revolt. I'm just like,

(27:20):
I just don't give Shrek that much credit, no right,
And I think that that's fine, you know, like you
but it's like he's one guy, you know, he's one
unremarkable guy. That's kind of his whole thing. Yeah, what right? Anyways,
I agree.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Anyway, all these things are different and we'll come to
find out more soon. But the witches who are rumbel
Stiltskin's minions, okay.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Okay, they're trying trying to be but it's too late.
It's too late.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
So they take Shrek to Rumbelstiltskin's palace and he is
delighted to see Shrek because he's the one who made
this all possible. Because the day that Rumpelstiltskin took from
Shrek was the day that he was born, which means
Shrek never even existed, which means he never rescued or
even met Fiona. It means that when this day comes

(28:19):
to an end, Shrek will cease to exist.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
And he'll like explode into light. Which seemed so dramatic.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
My stakes are high.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah. I and this is you know, spoiler alert for
this eighty minute movie. This episode will be longer than
the movie. But I think that it was quite bold
in a living in twenty twenty four. Now, let's say,
in a world where all children's movies are too cowardly
to murder their protagonist in the fourth installment, I think

(28:52):
it's shocked. I think it is rather shocking that we
do see Shrek fully die. I mean only for like
two minutes, but you're still damn they killed Shrek. I
killed his ass, they got his ass. Loved that.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah. So anyway, Shrek never existing also means that Rumpel's
Stiltskin was able to seize control of Far Far Away,
which is why he wanted this whole thing to happen,
which is why he made this deal with Shrek, etc.
So Rumpel Stiltskin finally has what he wants, so Shrek
grabs Donkey and they escape from the palace. Shrek gets

(29:32):
Donkey to trust him, and then Donkey tells him about
the secret exit clause to the contract that Shrek had signed,
and the way to render this contract null and void
is for Shrek to have true Love's kiss and then
we're like, okay, wait a minute, exit clause Santa Claus three,

(29:54):
the escape clause.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
This is a Christmas movie. I kept writing that down
like another Christmas thing. There's a Santa Claus in the
Just why did this movie come out in May?

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah? Not sure?

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Anyway, So Shrek is like, okay, I have to go
find Truelove's kiss with Fiona. He realizes that if he
never rescued her from the dragon guarded tower, she must
still be there. But when he goes to the tower,
she's not there. So he's like, okay, well, if I
didn't save her, then who did?

Speaker 3 (30:33):
Because he cannot conceive of a world in which Fiona
could escape the tower on her own.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Well, neither could the first Shrek movie, So I know
he's a flaw. He's okay. So Shrek and Donkey continue
their search for Fiona, and they stumble upon an Ogre community.
There this resistance group who is fire against Rumpelstiltskin and
his oppressive regime, and their leader is Fiona.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Ooh, and it's a great reveal shot. It is, yes
and really brings out I'm certain we've talked about this
in past episodes. Really brings out how weak Cameron Diaz's
voice acting is, because we get this amazing reveal of
Fiona and then Cameron Dia like, I love Camera Diaz,
but like she's not a very strong voice actor and

(31:30):
doesn't improve of her time, and so you get like
this incredibly animated like Fiona's hair is whipping around, she's
wearing this warrior off it, and then she's like, okay, guys,
let's okay, everyone, time to go into battle. And you're like, yea, yay.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
I've always thought that Cameron Diaz was not well cast.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
It's as roll right, which is challenging because it's like,
I don't it's in that way inadvertently because of how
these movies are structured. You were coming down on basically
the only woman who's meaningfully in the movie. But uh,
but also we've been shielding her for years. I just
have to say, how I feel that's fair. Okay, guys,

(32:12):
let's go into battle. You're like, oh my god, oh
my god.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Anyway, so we get this revealed that Fiona is the
leader of this revolution, and of course she does not
know Shrek because they have never met in this alternate reality.
So Shrek tries to woo Fiona, but she's too busy
planning an attack on rumpel Stiltskin and his witches that night. Also,

(32:41):
we learn that Puss and Boots is her pet cat,
although he's not the you know, fierce assassin we know
him to be anymore. He's a quote unquote lazy house cat.
And we'll talk more about the implications and choices that
were made with this character. Anyway, So Shrek is trying

(33:02):
to win Fiona over, and so he goes to her
and they start this kind of like play fighting thing
and they're vibing, but still no kiss. Meanwhile, Rumpelstiltskin wants
to find Shrek to prevent him from kissing Fiona because
he doesn't want this contract to be nullified because it

(33:22):
would mean the end of his empire. So he hires
a bounty hunter to find Shrek, who turns out to
be the Pied Piper. And this is when I was like, Okay,
why would you interro just have Puss in Boots, Yeah,
be the assassin that gets hired, bring that thing back
in that makes more sense, And then it's baffling. Yeah,

(33:45):
it would be maybe too similar to the plot of
Shrek too. But that's a callback that would make sense
where then Shrek would have to like, you know, do
something similar to like get Pussing Boots on his side
and just like why why why is Pied Piper here?
Like worst I did fill in minion I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
I didn't, especially in a year where we're being introduced
to the minions and Shrek's bringing who to the tape
like no wonder, no wonder you were dethroned king, No,
but I agree with you. I hadn't thought of it.
That's that's a really smart fix for that too, And
a far more logical use of puss in Boots character

(34:29):
because he really is like he's used as a fat
shaming site gag basically, and then he kind of like
doesn't do anything the whole movie. He uterly does nothing
to the point where it's like egregious and at one
point I left because they're just trying to justify his presence,
so which is like, also, if you're paying Antonio banderis,
please use him like it's wired either way. But there's

(34:49):
like at one point where Shrek and Fiona spoiler like
they have to fall bug in love, and there's a
point where they're like they're vibing, and then it just
cuts to Puss and Boots and he's like wow, You're like,
why is he here? He's just like wow.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Sense anyway, So the assassin for some reason or the
bounty hunter is the Pied Piper, and then when the
Ogres launched their attack against rumpel Stiltskin, it's actually a
trap laid by the Pied Piper, and then he plays
his flute and it like forces them to dance, and
that's how he bounty hunts them question marks. Exhausting, but

(35:31):
Shrek and Fiona manage to get away m hmm. So
they're like on the run. And also he's trying to
prove to her that he is her true love and
that he knows a bunch of stuff about her.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
Including well and he's also like, what if I forcibly
kissed you with that convinced you huh?

Speaker 2 (35:47):
He does that many many times. It's disgusting. But he's like, look,
I know all this stuff about you, including your curse
where you're human during the day, and he's like, so
kiss me, and she does basically just to I think,
get him to shut up and leave her alone. Yeah,

(36:08):
but the kiss doesn't change anything because.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
Because why would it. She's a revolution. Yeah, I just
hate that, Like, I mean it's complicated to the extent
that you know, like without Shrek's presence in this world, right,
Like the Shreks are oppressed. That's bad. However, it's also
presented that it's equally bad that Fiona is the leader

(36:31):
of a revolution, which is not bad. That's like a
fun like it's it's so weird how Fiona is characterized
over the years, where it's like she it just feels
like antiquated, even for the two thousands to be like, well,
she would be much happier if she was just the
mother of newborn triplets than if she were the you know,
like warrior goddess of the Shreks, right, I don't I

(36:53):
feel like we can split the difference there a little
or not, you know.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Like it's just it's the same kind of like empty
feminism that we've seen throughout the entire franchise, where like
there will be moments where like Fiona gets one little
scene where she does something that vaguely seems empowering, but
when you actually look at it closely, it's a very
hollow gesture or it has weird implications. The same thing's

(37:22):
happening here.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
The same thing's happening, and she.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
At this time does not love Shrek, so when she
kisses him, it doesn't break the contract with ruppel Stiltskin.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
And I thought, I because I of course I didn't
remember what happened in this movie, fully because I was
busy doing what pegot. But like I sort of was like,
far be it for me to think this Shrek. I
feel like this happens in every Shrek movie, where it's
like they have an opportunity to do something cool and

(37:55):
interesting and then they're like, nah, we're not gonna, We're
not gonna. You're like, okay, sorry, never mind.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah they don't. Sorry for having any expectations.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
Go God, sorry for thinking that the franchise could grow.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Ugh yeah right anyway, So rumpel Stiltskin, desperate to stop Shrek,
and Fiona puts out a call basically saying that whoever
brings them in rumpel Stiltskin will grant them any wish
they desire. So Shrek realizes he can use this to

(38:30):
his advantage, and he turns himself in in exchange for
freeing all of the ogres that the Pied Piper had captured,
except rumpel Stiltskin refuses to release Fiona since she's only
half ogre. So now she and Shrek are captured together

(38:50):
and Rumpelstiltskin unleashes dragon on them, but they work together
to best the dragon and defeat Rumpel still skin, but.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
Then Shrek dies so abrupt too.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yes, because it's dawn, which means Shrek's time is up,
and he starts to fade away, which I.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
Kind of forgot was gonna happen.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, yeah, and she kisses him, but he disappears, but
just kidding. The kiss worked, and this alternate reality vanishes.
We're transported back to Shrek's children's birthday party and Shrek
is like, wow, Fiona, I love you, babe. I always

(39:35):
thought it was me who rescued you from the dragons Keep,
but really it was you who rescued me the enda
and you're just like and then a smash Mouth cover starts.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Weezer, that's Weezer. It's Weezer covering smash Mouth covering the monkeys.
And at this point we're like, we got to retire
Shrek for fifteen years. He's got go in the vault.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
I think that they did talk about inception a song
within a song within a song.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
Wa wha, all right, let's take a break, will help
her be right back? All right, and we're back.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
As with all things Shrekian, uh, this movie did suck,
But I do think that there is a fair amount
to talk about, especially in regards to I just like
if in Shrek five we could like get an arc
for Fiona, that's like we're saying on par with Shrek

(40:42):
two and let's say better because we have the benefit
of fifteen years, right, But Shrek four sucks for fiot.
It's so weird because it and speaking to the empty feminism,
which I feel like is yeah, it's very very prevalent
and again like best done in the earlier installments, not
the later ones, which is depressing. But like the message

(41:07):
of this movie for women is bad as you, but
we see a lot of cool stuff, which is weird.
I feel like that there is like a sort of
game of forty chess being played because you get to
see Fiona in a position of power where she's respected
and hyper competent, and like, I think the sequences where

(41:29):
she's fighting and like leading is really cool. There is
sort of I know that there's Jane Lynch's character is
a woman coded Shrek, but outside of that, it appears
that it's kind of a Smurfette situation like most of
the Shrek's overwhelmingly male, which is Minyon coded. I will say, true,

(41:49):
but obviously not as effective if John Hamm is actually
in Minion's one, so he's kind of double dipping when
you think about it. And also, wait is he Yeah,
he plays Sandra Bulls groovy husband in Minions and he's
Minions one, not Despicable Me one, not Despicable Me. We're
talking this spinoff franchise, I see the real moneymaker.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
I don't think I've seen Minions one all the way through.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Oh my gosh, we should watch it on Christmas?

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Okay, we should cover it on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
I would love to. I mean, I've seen it so
many times, and not to mention Rise of Group, like,
I mean.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
I saw that one in the theaters and.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
It's so cute. I love it. Yeah. Twenty tway four,
it's a Minions year, thank god. Twenty twenty three were
we were panting, starving, like what was gonna happen to us?
Thankfully we're back. But but yeah, I mean, and good
for John hann for sensing which way the wind was blowing.
But in any case, I don't know, like Fiona is

(42:52):
in a position of huge power. We find out that
she has liberated herself from the tower, which I think
is cool and like, because this is all established, I
almost wished at the end of Shrek four, instead of
Shrek being pulled back to his normal reality where we've
seen Fiona for two movies, now be pushed into these

(43:13):
traditional roles, which, as we say, oh it like, we're
not saying that these are bad roles to be in
to want to be married or to be a parent,
but they are stereotypical roles that are you know whatever,
you know what we're talking about. That's all we see
Fiona do in these movies anymore. And I was really
hoping that they went to some like third location where

(43:36):
there could be some like I think that would have
been cool, where they like went to an alternate reality
where Fiona could have access to both of these, where
she could be a warrior, because she's always been a
really like fighty character since the first movie. She's been
a good fighter and like a world where she could

(43:56):
you know, have both of these. I feel like that
wouldn't be out of the question in this world. But
instead Shrek is just sent back to the world where
we've seen Fiona turned into a very like unchallenging wife
and mother character, and Shrek is just like, Wow, I'm
so grateful that you're like this, and you're like.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Ugh, right, no, yeah, no. This movie can't imagine a
world and suggests that like, if you are, you know,
a warrior and the leader of a revolution, you would
not also be a parent like that. It's like you're
one or the other. And if you are a parent,
then you have to live this like hyper domesticated life

(44:41):
and that goes for Fiona and Shrek, and that's why
he tries to like escape. So, like I said, I
went back and listened to our Shrek the third episode
and a big criticism, thank you. A big criticism we
had about that movie was that it reinforces a gendered
trope of like men and being very reluctant to become

(45:02):
parents and women being hyper enthusiastic about becoming a parent.
In this movie, we're already kind of touched on this,
but it does something similar in the sense that we
see Shrek growing increasingly bored, frustrated, disillusioned with domestic life
of like, you know, taking care of his three babies.

(45:23):
He's tired of the monotony of it. But we do
not see Fiona feeling this way, which reinforces a similar
gendered trope of like, oh, well, women don't mind doing
the same domestic tasks over and over. Women don't mind
the monotony that might accompany that. Right, She's happily doing it,

(45:43):
and she's never getting frustrated or bored because women just
inherently love that kind of work. But men, well, of
course they're going to get bored and yearn for something
more exciting. They're going to yearn for their days when
they were a bachelor and they weren't, you know, like
weighed down by this ball and chain. And of course

(46:04):
their masculinity will feel threatened now that they have to
stay at home and do domestic tasks and take care
of a family.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
Which is like exacerbated by the fact that the movie
doesn't even bother to like add the trophy layer to
make it seem like Shrek has a job, like he
does it, he does it. They're both stay at home parents,
but like and and also it's like I think that
these are easy as I know that we've talked about
this in others Trek installments. There's easy small effixes that

(46:33):
allow Fiona to participate more fully in the plot. If
they're both burned out as new parents, that totally changes
the dynamic of that because you're like, yeah, parents of
newborn triplets that are being like surveilled by the far
far away paparazzi or whatever. That would be exhausting for
both of them, But she is shielded by mother powers

(46:56):
that like don't just add on these tropes but like
fundamentally exclude her from the plot. Like there's maybe I
mean it was still suck because it's like Shrek four,
but like there's a version of this where they could
go through this journey together and see the alternate version
of reality of like what if both of them didn't

(47:17):
exist and if Fiona doesn't exist. Honestly, I'm more inclined
to believe that Ogres would be more oppressed versus Shrek
because she is an Ogre who is a princess. Like
that actually makes like, yeah, talking it out now, that
makes a lot more sense that like Fiona has far
more to do with like the you know, ogres are

(47:37):
scary stigma being removed from that community than Shrek does
because she came out as an ogre and everyone still
loved her.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
So, I mean, hello, end of Shrek one, it.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Was like an earth shattering moment.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
It changed the world. Yeah, right, there's that. So there's
a bunch of different things going on with Shrek one.
He's frustrated with the monotony of domestic life. He's also ungrateful,
you know, despite having, as Fiona points out, three beautiful children,
a wife, a wife who loves him, friends who adore him.

(48:17):
He's just acting very ungrateful and unappreciative of it. And
then on top of that, he doesn't like that people
are no longer afraid of him, and he wants to
go back to the good old days where people were
afraid of ogres, when the world made sense. And I'm like, okay,
maga vibe yikes.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
Maga, maga before maga. Yeah, I mean it's super weird,
Like I don't know, in the Shrek world. I'll let
that slide where it's like, Okay, he misses what he
was a scary oak, but I feel like that's just telegraphic,
like I miss my bachelor days like you were saying earlier.
But it's also like let Fiona in on that, that's

(48:59):
what I'm saying. Yeah, he doesn't bother to openly communicate
any of these frustrations or these feelings with Fiona. He
doesn't say anything like, Hey, I've been overwhelmed, I've been frustrated.
Here are my needs that aren't being met? Like can
we work on this together to like try to figure
out a solution. And also, hey, Fiona, how are you feeling?

(49:19):
Is any of this getting to you? Like they don't
have any conversation like that, and Shrek is like famously
bad at being inter relent, but it's like, why can't
we just let his character grow a little because it
gets exhausting and you would I mean, it's been nine
years Shrek and again to come to Fiona's defense here,
like it makes far more sense for her to be

(49:43):
like shaken by this shift because she has you know,
I forget how much time is canonically passed and Shrek won,
but like she has gone through far more big changes
in her life in the last several Shrek years than Shrek.
She was still she's still got tower PTSD. She and
then she's like coming out as an ogre, which is

(50:05):
a huge deal in this world, right, the whole Shrek
two of it all. Like she is married now, she's
living in a swamp. She's had three kids. Like there
it again, her life has changed more and unfortunate not
to be like I feel like I'm starting to sound
like a royalist, but like her just because of who

(50:26):
she is. Unfortunately, she's like Prince she I'll say it.
She's the Princess Da far far away. She's the people's princess.
And I feel like it's disrespectful for Shrek Prince Charles
over here, not exactly, not exact and exact one to one,

(50:47):
but he's a flop. He's not the most interesting character.
It's like disrespectful to even have Fiona voice by Cameron Diaz.
I mean, but it's too late. It's twenty three years
too late to fix that. So let's just give her something.
Let's give her something and the kids look like shit.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Come on, I didn't we know that these animators can
make something look cute because uh put some boots with
his big eyes.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
Yeah, so I don't know. Yeah, it felt very yeah,
like it something fat. I mean, I guess you can't
like overestimate the amount of cynicism that goes into a
franchise like this, except for Dispicable to me, which is
you know, pure. They would never do anything for me
merchandising purvises, holding my vampire minion who watches me while

(51:35):
I create content.

Speaker 4 (51:38):
Okay, but but seriously, you guys, no, I feel like
they they It's almost like advantageous for them to have
these shots and sequences of Fiona as a warrior because
of it, and then they can put it in the
trailer and be like, oh, se Fiona.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
But then the status quo is always re established, as
it is with in a time and time again. And
then also, I mean all those yucky things that we
touched on during the recap where Shrek is so convinced
that like all he has to do is give her
a kiss, he doesn't have to grow as a person,
which he I would say, arguably doesn't in this movie
really at all. Right, Okay, well, I guess he learns

(52:18):
to be grateful for his wife, but like does he
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
See, That's what I was trying to figure out. So
instead of him, you know, trying to have an open
and honest conversation about his feelings with Fiona. Instead, he
storms off and then makes a deal with the first
sleazy guy he finds, which ends up having these dire consequences.
So the rest of the plot is him having to

(52:43):
like fix this situation, and the lesson he ends up
quote unquote learning is, oh, I didn't know what I
had until it was gone, and I should learn to
appreciate the love I share with my family and friends.
And sure that's a valid lesson to learn, but I'm

(53:05):
trying to, Like, I guess they just have mixed feelings
about stories like this where a man has to learn
emotional intelligence or a man you know, has to have
this emotional redemption arc because on one hand, I'm very
for men learning and growing emotionally, but sure women are

(53:27):
rarely given arcs like this in stories because women are
expected to already have this emotional intelligence because of a
you know, gendered expectation that women are nurturing and tuned
into their feelings and things like that, whereas men it's
just like, well, of course they're gonna start out being
you know, not very emotionally intelligent and they have to

(53:51):
learn these things, and they kind of barely learn them,
and it takes this whole epic saga for them to
figure these things out. And then I'm right, does he
even learn it? Because at the end he doesn't apologize
to Fiona when he's like back at the party. He
doesn't like say, wow, I've been acting horribly. He just

(54:12):
says like, it was actually you who rescued me, which
is I feel like what people say to the like
the pets that they adopt.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Yes, yes, I was like you talk her to her
like she's a damn dog, like oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Then yeah, he doesn't apologize and say like, hey, sorry
for being an ungrateful little shit. He's just like you
rescued me.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
And I just feel like.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
It's very a very like oversimplified version.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
It's a freaking mess. It's a freaking mess. It's a disaster,
it's a catastrophe. It stinks. It's gotta go, like.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Right, And then with Fiona like okay, yes, this is
an alternate reality where Shrek never saved her, so she
saved herself from the dragon guarded tower, which again is
like something that the movie Shrek won couldn't even conceive.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Of and shocking.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Why don't we get a flashback of like her saving
herself showing how she did that. Maybe it informs why
she becomes such an effective leader of a revolution. You know,
there's like again, it's just like this empty well of
course she's the leader. Now why well you don't have
to know about that. It just happened. It just glasses

(55:34):
over everything.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
It stinks. It stinks. Yeah, I mean I totally agree.
Where it's like the things that this movie makes narrative
space for acting as if it only has eighty minutes
to exist or it'll die, Like it's yeah, and this,
And I know we've talked about this before, but I
was reminded of it again in this installment of Shrek.

(55:58):
That Fiona and Dragon, that is the dragon that guarded
her tower for over a decade. And why do these
two characters not have a relationship at all? Like it
could even be contentious, it would make sense, but it's
so weird, like because they introduce Dragon in the alternate

(56:21):
reality at the end, but it's only so that Donkey
and Dragon can fall in love again. But the way
that it's like these are the two characters of the
four of the two married couples, Fiona and Dragon have
known each other for the longest, but they have no relationship.
They act like, oh, our husbands are friends, so I
guess we hang out. I'm like, this dragon was going

(56:44):
to kill you for ten years, like, how do you
have no feelings on? Like? And I think that that
could also it would. It feels very Shrekian there it is.
It feels very Shrekian to put two characters that were
like at severe odds. They'd be like, oh, we get
Martini is now we hang out blah blah blah, like
whatever it is established some sort of relationship like why,

(57:06):
I don't know. I feel like the franchise thinks so
little of the two women. And also Dragon can't talk great.
But the two women who you see most frequently, which
are Fiona and Dragon, they have the longest relationship and
they're like, eh, no one cares, well, not true, we care.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Also, why can't drag I mean basically every other dragon tall.
We got Puss and Boots. He's talking. We got the
three little pigs, they're always talking. We got the wolf.
The wolf is talking. We got a sentient gingerbread man
who gets eaten because of the thing we were hinting

(57:44):
at as far as like Puss and Boots, he's now
a fat character, and the movie takes every opportunity to
make very like fat shamy jokes, which is.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Very in step with what the franchise is always in,
as well as the no homo like vampire oh ye
kissy joke at the like it's all just like bluff
and you already suggested a far better utility of that carriac.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Of Puss and Boots.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
Yeah, of pus, Pus, there's so many better uses of Puss.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Here's how you use puss.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
I have a master's degree, and I know how to
use Puss in this movie.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
And well, since you mentioned that like queer phobic vampire thing,
that's just like a fleeting moment in a quick scene
where the King and Queen are riding their carriage through
what seems to be coded as like a medieval trailer park,
and all of the people there are made to seem

(58:47):
like weird and scary, and it's just like this a
very obviously like classist like, yeah, oh, if you live
in a trailer park, you're a freaking weirdo.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Which is weird because like this movie is all all
over the map with that too, because the Shreks are
presented as an underclass that are like staging a revolution
and are to be rooted for this Like this movie
can't even decide how they feel about Green, Like they
can't even decide what they feel about Green, because we

(59:18):
also have true the witches as the they work for
rumbel stilts Can. Again, I don't know, rumpel stilts Can
Lore please come for me. I guess, Like, God, I'm
so tired, but like, I don't get I mean, And
we've talked extensively on other episodes about a lot of
the stereotyping that exists around witches. There's a lot of

(59:44):
heavy stereotyping around older women and also a lot of
antisemitic tropes that come up in the animation style, which
is which I think is not challenged in this movie whatsoever,
for sure, And even outside of that, you're just like,
why do the witches work for rumpel stilt Skit Like
it's really, I don't know, it's a mess.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
I don't know it they just the Shrek writers and
director aka Mess. Movie was written by Josh Klausner and
Darren Lemkey and directed by Mike Mitchell. Uh, they just
kind of do whatever the hell they want.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
It's so funny because it was like directed by Mike Mitchell.
I was like, Wow, I loved I love Doe Boys
so much.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
Boys.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Wow, Mitch, what a what a even even bigger multi
hyphen it that we imagine different Mike Mitchell. But in
my mind, Mitch directed Shrek Forever After. He also directed
all of the other Mike Mitchell movies. Can I rattle
them off?

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Please?

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
My buddy? Mitch also directed Sky High, Deuce, Bigelow, Mail, Chick,
Alvin and the Chipmunks, chip Wrecked, whoa Trolls? Okay, He's
killing it, Lego Movie two, and Kung Fu Panda four
or so. Yeah, if you're a fan of the Dope Boys,
guess what, there's more where that came from and it's

(01:01:07):
four incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Hmmm. Do you have anything else that you want to
talk about? Because I've pretty much come to the end
of my notes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
Let's see, let's see. Uh, well, I guess I just
wanted to get back to Rumpelstiltskin and I think, just
even from writing perspective, is a really really weak character,
like a stinky character that felt like a retread of
far Quad. For I was like, could they not get
the original voice actor of far Quad back? Like, oh sorry,

(01:01:42):
I put some respect on his name. I just thought,
like a really weak villain. For the third and the fourth.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Also has nothing to do with the Rumpelstiltskin narrative, which
is all about like, I will give you whatever you
want if you're able to guess my name, and if not,
I'm going to steal all your babies away from you.
That's the lore of Rumpelstiltskin. And then none of that
appears except for like him making shady deals.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
I guess see the babies technically disappear. I guess it's
a no. I mean that's me giving it too much credit.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
That's a stretch.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Yeah, I just I think it's weird that this movie
ultimately comes down and Fiona would be like clearly establishes
Fiona would be cooler if she hadn't met Shrek.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
True, I mean that is true, like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Objectively and also taking it like again, just there's so
many more interesting ways for this movie to go because
if we know now in twenty ten, something that seemed obvious, right,
but like that Fiona eventually would have escaped the tower
on her own. I think that that should send Shrek
into more of a crisis than it does. Like, yeah,

(01:02:51):
I think it's interesting. I had this written down as well,
where it's like, if I I, as Shrek.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Saw that Fiona would have h comma Shrek, unlike Ikmma
tana Ikamma Frankenstein.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Two of my favorite movies. If I Shrek found out
that Fionda would have escaped the tower on her own
and become a revolutionary leader if she had never met me,
I would be like, hold on, maybe, like I would
have the kind of crisis where it's like, wow, maybe
I really don't matter, Like there's a whole like I mean,
and I know that that's complicated by the fact that,

(01:03:25):
for some reason, without Shrek, the Shreks are more marginalized
then they would. They seem to be like exploited for
like it seems like they're being used as slaves to
Ruympel still looking too, which is a disaster.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
He seems to specifically target and capture Shreks and enslave them.
I don't understand, but this is the first time we're
even ever learning about other Shreks in this world because
Aside from Fiona, there are no other Ogres until the
fourth movie, and then suddenly there's a whole community of

(01:04:00):
which begs the question where have these other Shreks been.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Which is actually a really scary image to see. Like
You're just like, oh, I feel like I'm having a nightmare.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
It's jarring.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
Yeah, And I just honestly, I don't think that this
franchise is equipped to deal with the topic of slavery.
I will bravely say that, And I don't think that
they should have tried. I guess, like it's that plot
point made me very uncomfortable. And also to suggest that
without Shrek there would be many more Shreks, but they

(01:04:30):
would be enslaved. You're like, I'd hate this. I hate
every second of this, Like this is a really, really
brutal tangle to put into this story that they are
not able to write themselves out of. It's a disaster.
That's bad. But then on the other hand, I did
like how the Shreks as a community were characterized, where

(01:04:53):
they were stage a revolution. They call Shrek a I
think John Aham Shrek calls regular a comrade in arms.
You're like, that's kind of fun. They're like preparing to
take down their oppressors. It's kind of like, woahoo, this
is cool. And you know, alternate reality, Fiona is very active.
She is planning the revolution, right, Craig, I think it's

(01:05:17):
Craig Robinson, Shrek has a chimney choga stand. You're like, wow,
epic random Bacon Humor twenty ten whatever. But but like
I I liked how like I just think again, it's
interesting to establish like this canon of there's a whole
Shrek community and they're essentially like revolutionaryas that are going

(01:05:42):
to topple the overclass.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
And that feed to be confused with the ogre class.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
The ogre class topples the overclass. Whoa and this alternate
university university sorry, this ALTI universe implies, in a way
that is also under explored, that Fiona has abandoned the
idea of monarchy like she in a way that she

(01:06:11):
doesn't in the main franchise. She maintains a relationship with royalty.
She maintains like she is like a badass in not
to I feel like that's over used, but like she's
really really cool in this altered because she like rejects
the monarchy she becomes an underground revolutionary and uses what
she knows about the monarchy to get the Ogres into

(01:06:35):
the palace into like tap like it's all really really
cool again and then if you like think it through,
which you're not supposed to, right, this is like lobotomy
brain filmmaking. But like that, Shrek is also totally fine
meeting and connecting with this whole community of Ogres and
just losing that why.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
Yeah, I don't know Shrek. Once he does learn that,
like you know, what Fiona could have done or what
she's capable of if he wasn't involved in her life,
and you would think the thought would cross his mind,
like wow, maybe I've been holding her back. So when

(01:07:17):
he does show up again in like Shrek Prime reality,
he needs to be like miss Shrek. I feel like
he needs to be like, hey, babe, like let me
help you see your full potential here You're like, you know,
like is there anything else you want to be doing
with your life? Like right, I don't know, it's just.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Where at that point, Like but at this point, it's
like it's not even clear at the end of the
movie if he's ever going to tell her that this happened.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Probably not, I would say, maybe he's not, which is
so scary. It's like the end of what was that
movie we recently covered, Ruby sparks yes, yes, or like
at the end he's like, I'm not gonna tell her
that I was freaking creep.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
You're like, this absolutely sucks. This stinks as truly.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
The last thing I wanted to touch on was something
that comes up a few different times throughout the movie
is a discussion of Fiona being quote only half Ogre,
and then at one point Shrek says something like, well,
you're not a real ogre. You know, you spent half
of your life in a palace. And Fiona, I mean,

(01:08:34):
I don't want to necessarily, you know, judge her for
how she responds to this, but it's something that I
feel like you could equate with, like a person in
the real world having a dual identity in some way,
for example, people who are mixed race, or people who
are the child of immigrants and have two or more

(01:08:56):
cultures that are a part of their identity, or just
you know, like anyone who's gotten criticized for you know,
not being xyz enough, you know, when for example, again
mixed race people are told, oh, you know, you're not
black enough, or you're not Asian enough, or you know,
whatever the case may be, basically being told like you're

(01:09:18):
not one thing or the other, so you don't belong
in either space. I think that would be an interesting
Not that I think the Shrek movies are capable of
exploring this any further, but it does get brought up.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
Well any any more than the Harry Potter universe was
equipped to explore that through Hermion's character. True, I feel
like you have a very similar I mean not to
bring up Harry Potter, but like, I think it's a
similar plot point brought up in the same era that
also kind of like was always trying to start that
but then never quite you know, did.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Doesn't know how to actually like, yeah, have a character
deal with this. Shrek says something like really cruel to her.
He says, you're not a real Ogre. He's saying this
to her as she is like an Ogre.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Running the Ogre Revolution, and what are you talking about,
you fucking asshole.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
I just it would have again, it would have been
cool if that could have been explored more thoughtfully and thoroughly,
and if we saw like how people saying that to
her makes Fiona feel because like this is something that
like Fiona would likely struggle with or deal with or

(01:10:39):
you know, like have feelings about, but we barely see that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
And also for her own husband to have such a
callous way of speaking with her about it, for sure,
which feels like a step back from what we hear
in the first Shrek movie where he is like, that's
part of why she falls for him is because he
is accepting of who she is in all parts of

(01:11:05):
who she is. But then like they have a couple
of kids, and he's like, you're not a real ogre.
I mean I think that, yeah, these I that it
does seem like being mixed race is the clear implication
that's being made through Fiona's character. But you're right, like
it's I can see, you know, especially in a media
property this broad that it could be you know, used

(01:11:29):
for viewers to connect who are coming from a lot
of different points of marginalization, and it just basically says
like no, Shrek says you gotta pick a lane, and
you're like, that doesn't make any fucking sense, And it
also just like doesn't even make sense with who we
know this character to be, which is why they had
to retire him for fifteen years so he could really

(01:11:51):
think about what he said. Yeah, another another big missed opportunity.
The last thing I wanted to say.

Speaker 5 (01:11:58):
Is between Shrek the Third and Shrek Forever after another
Shrek property came out in two thousand and eight and
it was on Broadway.

Speaker 3 (01:12:11):
And it was called Shrek the Musical, right, and I
am very intimately familiar with this musical. I didn't get
to see it on Broadway, unfortunately, but I have seen
several local productions of it. I've seen it seven times,
oh my god. And I've also watched it a lot.
There's a professional Broadway recording of it that exists on

(01:12:35):
I don't know where it's currently streaming. Generally, with the
other Shreks, it is really difficult to watch Broadway great.
Brian Darcy James, who is a decorated Broadway veteran, play
Shrek beside Sutton Foster, another like Broadway legend playing Fiona,
and you're just like, what am I watching? And how

(01:12:59):
much money must they have been paid? I hope right?
As well as another Daniel Breaker plays Donkey extra like
John Tartaglia won a Tony for playing Pinocchio. You're just like,
this is a nightmare, this is disaster, right, But I
do love it. I think it is. It's an adaptation

(01:13:19):
of Shrek one that I think honestly worked better than
Shrek one. I think it has more emotional punch it
gives Shrek. I think so. I just I was thinking
about that because this I think opened and closed on
Broadway between the third and the fourth movie. But it

(01:13:40):
does add to Shrek lore. I don't know. You know,
if we're talking to the Shrek team and we say,
is Shrek the musical on Broadway canonical to the Shrek universe,
I think they would say, I don't care. But in
a world where they did care, we would have a
little bit of context for Shrek that includes, I think

(01:14:01):
mainly the thrust of it explains why he got mean.
It implies that he was thrown out by his parents, right.
I remember that he was when he was very young,
because that's Ogre tradition, is like to harden yourself to
the world in the Ogre like fashion. You get tossed

(01:14:22):
out by your parents when you're very young, and so
that's how you become like a hardened Ogre right, and
again it's just like, Wow, we have this incredible lore
going into Shrek the fourth Edit's like the Broadway musical
that won Tony's somehow, by the way, it won one.
It won Best Costume Design. Sorry John Tartaglia didn't win

(01:14:44):
a Tony for that, but you know, it won a
couple drama desks as well. It was nominated for a Grammy.
I'm just saying it got more than it should have.
I mean, certainly, it just makes me really sad to
think of like an actor as good as Brian Darcy
James having to get into Shrek makeup every day for
eight shows a week. That just seems like a horrible

(01:15:06):
way to have to live. I think about that sometimes. Anyways,
I just wanted to mention that there was a I
think probably my favorite Shrek thing is Shrek the Musical
because also the music is like good. It's like I
I think so, I mean, I have a nostalgic attachment

(01:15:26):
to it because I've seen it seven times and like
many things Shrek, you know, started as a joke became
real over time. But like, the music is good. I
would recommend if you're popping on the soundtrack Build a
Wall is like a bon Jovi song. It's wild that
Shrek is singing, and also its pre Trump like it.
You know, harder to listen to the song build a Wall,
but he meant he means an emotional wall to keep

(01:15:49):
out pain and hurt. That's another good one. Don't Let
Me Go is Donkey's song when he's trying to be
Shrek's friend. Iconic song I Know It's Today, A great
song for Fiona. Oh god, it's just all I'll admit,
it's all good. Yeah. So I would say my review

(01:16:12):
of Shrek four is watch Shrek.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
The musical, okay, And my review of Shrek four is
watch Puss in Boots the Last Wish.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
Hell yeah, incredible? Okay. So we know that this movie
passes the Shrek Doel test, Yes, but does it pass
the Bechdel test? Well, no, Let's start the year twenty
twenty four out on a hard and clear No. The

(01:16:42):
witches talk to each other, but it's only about Shrek,
and I don't know if we're really given. They're credited
with names, but I don't remember learning them canonically.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
Yeah, they don't address each other by name. No, And yeah,
they're talking about Shrek, and Fiona doesn't talk to any
other women.

Speaker 3 (01:17:02):
She does. She talks to I think Jane Lynch Shrek, gretched.
She talks to Gretchen, good name, gret pretty awesome, but gretched,
I don't believe responds she's making a military plan and
they are like the dual smurfets of the town. Also,
there is one joke at Gretchen's expense where it's implied

(01:17:26):
in this Smurf like Ogre kingdom that everyone has the
hots for Fiona but she doesn't. Oh, that is one
thing that we didn't get to that even in the
world where Fiona is a revolutionary leader, she still can't
have it all. Like she has to choose being a
war which is which is fundamentally what this movie comes
down to. You have to choose having a relationship with

(01:17:47):
a family or being a revolutionary leader and never the
Twain shall meet. But they're in a conversation like that
I forget where they're like, oh, you know, nothing will
convince Fiona to be in a relationship because blah blah
blah blah blah, and Gratch It's like it would convince me,
and everyone's like, eh, we're not attracted to you and

(01:18:09):
you're like, okay, anyways, it doesn't pass the backdel test.
But what about uh, let's get it coming hot. First
nipple scale of the year, Caitlin get pumps?

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
All right? Zero do.

Speaker 3 (01:18:25):
Do do?

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
Do?

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
Do? Do? Do do do?

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
Okay, so on our scale of zero to five nipples,
where we rate the movie examining it through an intersectional
an interstrectional yes, lens, I would say, I'm going to
give this a half nipple. As much as I enjoy
seeing the very you know, fleeting moments of Fiona as

(01:18:53):
a revolutionary leader, as a warrior, it's surrounded by a
bunch of other gender tropy implications and just all the
fat phobia around the puss and boots character. And at
the end of the day, this is a story about

(01:19:13):
like a man learning an emotional lesson. He's learning to
be more emotionally intelligent and grateful, but also what does
he learn. He doesn't learn to communicate any more effectively
and open up emotionally to his partner. He learns that
he needs to be grateful. But if you have to

(01:19:36):
like have your entire life stripped away from you to
learn that lesson, I don't know. Try harder go to therapy,
like you need to learn gratitude wells.

Speaker 3 (01:19:46):
And also just as as a Shrek fan demonstrates, I
think a real I just realize the sentence I'm about
to say demonstrates are real stagnancy and the character development
of Shrek. Yeah, you're just like We've had four movies.
Shrek should be past this stuff now. He's been working
through this ship for the whole franchise.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
My goodness. Yeah, he's very static. He never seems to
learn or change, and he gets himself into the same
high jinks for the same reasons over and over again,
for Christe's sake. So it's annoying and I will give
I'll give my half nipple. I mean, I'm inclined to
give it to Fiona.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
Yeah, the alternate universe Fiona.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
Alternate universe Fiona.

Speaker 3 (01:20:33):
I think I'm gonna give this movie no nipples. I
was so disappointed. I've been disappointed in this movie for
almost fourteen years now, and I don't think I have
any nipples to give this time. I feel like, yeah,
this is like a I think. And also because I
I did like, it's a wonderful life, far better than
I like Shrek. Forever After. But I feel like it's
not an identical but a similar plot and takeaway that

(01:20:56):
like is like worse or at least equally considerate of
its woman character almost seventy years later. It's such a bummer, right,
so I simply have no nipples to give it this time.
I can't give it any like well it was of
the time, like it wasn't. And I would love to

(01:21:17):
see Shrek five written by not two Like, guys, what
if that happened?

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
We should write Shrek five.

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
I can't handle the pressure. It's too much, at least
in Shrek Forever After. When we see alternate reality Fiona,
she isn't a quote unquote old spinster librarian that's true,
is a loser because Shrek never married her. She's a winner.
It's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
That's the one improvement that we've made in seventy years.
It's not enough. Yeah, no, no nipples from Jamie. And
with that, twenty twenty four is off to the traces.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
We're Shrek the hall. We've shreked the halls and now
and now we're off to the traces.

Speaker 3 (01:22:13):
I also just say, okay, last I just think it's
really funny and no offense to the Felicies of the world.
But I think it was such an underwhelming line to
be like, I've always wanted a daughter named Felicia, and
you're like, okay, wow, why.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
All of our Felicia listeners just unsubscribed.

Speaker 3 (01:22:30):
I just it's such a like. No, I mean, I
would it would be weird if they said either of
our names. You're like, that's a pretty normal, like, that's really.

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
I've always wanted a baby Shrek named Caitlin.

Speaker 3 (01:22:42):
I don't know. Anyways, Happy twenty twenty four. We're rigging
it in as always, and again, just another reminder if
you want to check out our tour tickets, that's on
our link tree, which is linked in the description of
this that's San Francisco, Sacramento, d Austin, and San Diego

(01:23:02):
coming up at the beginning of next month. And you
can follow us in all the normal places on Instagram,
and we still post on the platform formerly known as Twitter,
so that's where you can find us.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
Yes, and you can also subscribe to our Patreon aka maatreon,
where we release two bonus episodes every month, plus you'll
get access to the back catalog of one hundred and
fifty ish bonus episodes, all for five dollars a month
at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast. This month is

(01:23:41):
Dance December and we're covering Flash Dance and Save the
Last Dance, So.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
We're celebrating a little late this year. You'll forgive us.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean we never, I
mean Portman July has been celebrated in every other month based.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
You're damn right. And you can also get our birch
at teapublic dot com slash Bechdel Cast. And again, if
you're going to those tour shows, we will have tour
exclusive merch at the meet and greet, so that'll be
a blast. And we also have an exciting January plan
for you, so stay tuned. Gang We love.

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
Yeah, Shreculator, sh reculator, Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is
a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie
loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our
theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by

(01:24:43):
Catherine Vosskrosenski. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie
Loftis and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more
information about the podcast, please visit link Tree Slash Bechdel
Cast