October 1, 2024 • 52 mins
In episode 1751, Jack and Miles are joined by President and CEO of Democracy Forward, Skye Perryman, to discuss… What Is The Heritage Foundation? Project 2025 Makes It Possible To Dismantle The National Weather Service, The Policies In Project 2025 Are Already Here, What Can Be Done To Fight Back? And more!
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Oh yeah, and this show is sponsored by kool Aid,
so I might be saying, oh yeah, throughout East drink
the kool Aid.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Yeah exactly, shout out of presenting sponsors, the Heritage Foundation.
So so yeah, we got a bone to pick with you, girl.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three point fifty eight,
episode two of Darn Daily's Like Guys production of iHeart Radio.
And it's a podcast where we take a deep dive
into America's shared consciousness. We are still America's only undecided podcasts.
The New York Times hit me up.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
They said, you're undecided. Yes, you're undecided.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Oh my god, can we interview you forty seven times?
I'm like, buy you some nachos to watch for debate.
I mean, we do have another debate coming up, right,
Maybe we should The New York Times. We're dead serious,
we're undecided.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Both sides look.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
For a.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, we truly don't know what to make of it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Come through and throw us a viewing party.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, we're super down. Oh Miles, it is Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, October first, twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
It's October. Yeah, wow, I'm there. I said November. Take
your time. What are you doing it's October. I said
that months ago, but as the.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Election is mainly entertainment, so I'm just getting excited.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's almost sweeps time. Yeah. It's also look National Taco Day,
National Fruit at Workday, National Pumpkin Spice Day. I know
the companies couldn't hold back, but today is actually National
Pumpkin Spice Day, not August fifteenth, and.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
It's national we wait until October.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, exactly to imbibe the sweet spices of pumpkin. It's
National Green City Day, National Black Dog Day, National Hair Day,
National Homemade Cookies. It's a lot of days October first,
it's chalk full of them. So there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And we're not supposed to be eating fruit any other
days of the week.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
At work, yeah, national, I know, don't be greedy. National
Fruit at Work Day. It just encourage, encourages some fruitiness
to get through your day, is what the aim of
this day is, so sure, encourage the fruitiness around you. Anyways.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
My name is Jack O'Brien aka A little bit of
Venning read in my life. A little bit of Italian
get inside, a little bit of blue cheese.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
All I need a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Of Russian all for me, A little bit of Caesar,
oh my mind, A little bit of a thousand Island son,
a little ginger carrot, can't be wrong.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
A little mix of these then i'm your man.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, oh a little.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Then what do we call that long Island dressing? Because
we said, if long Island icty is all the alcohols,
that long Island dressing is.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
On the dressing, all the salad dressings. That one courtesy
of Snarfila on the Discord, in reference to the conversation
we were having about having a long Island salad dressing
with Blake Wexler. Of course, the Great Blake Webstler's episode
on Friday where Miles said that a long Island dressing
(03:19):
would be all the all the different dressings mixed together.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Very good episode that I.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Totally would have forgotten that conversation if you hadn't brought
it up. So shout out to Snarfila on the Discold.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Anyways, I'm thrilled to be joined.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
As always by my co host mister Miles Gregs Miles Gray.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Kay.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
He puts me down down like an idiot clown, and
it just always feels shitty. I know that vance kind
of sounds like Pence, but why call me Mike when
it's clearly jd Okay, shout out Halsey and Salad over there.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I wasn't sure if Trump had mistakenly called referred to
jd Vance as Mike, but that feels very much in
the realm of possibility. It's very hard to keep track
of all of the lapses in memory and cognition, but
I will just say, House and Salad, thank you so
much for that one, the only foul Out Boy Fallout
Boy song. I feel like I can faithfully do the
course of so appreciate.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Jam you do it so well.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Any chance that we get to hear Miles do fall
Out Boy, Housey on Salad, we salute you, Miles. We
are thrilled to be joined in our third seat, yes
by someone who it feels very embarrassing to be doing
our aks in front of. They are the president and
CEO of Democracy Forward, who recently testified on Capitol Hill
(04:32):
about the extremist ideas pushed by Project twenty twenty five
to the House Committee on Oversight and Accountability, which must
have felt like a nice warm up for this momentous
podcast Apparent. Please welcome sky Permos Guy. Welcome welcome, Welcome
to the main events.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Guy, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Oh thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
How do we compare so far to the to the
House Oversight and Accountability?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Well, you know that you.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Know that hearing the Republicans called it, and I don't
think they realized it, but every witness they invited either
authored or sponsored Project twenty twenty five, and so so
it was a it was a very interesting, it was
very interesting hearing, and it's going to be interesting to
be here with you guys. But neither of you, I think,
(05:22):
authored or sponsored Project twenty twenty five. So we're already ahead.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Nothing that I'm putting my name on.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah. Right, was this hearing sort of put together to
try and like assuage people's fears, like they're kind of no.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
They together a hearing that they called the quote unquote
legacy of incompetence and of the Biden administration. That was
the so called purpose of this hearing. And the four
witnesses that they got, all of whom ended up having
a deep connection to Project twenty twenty five. And of
(05:55):
course I was there to talk about the real threats
that we have to our democ received Project twenty twenty
five is included in that and the fact that many
of the things that Biden Harris administration have done for
people in communities have been stalled or blocked in the
courts or in other places by these same groups behind
Project twenty twenty five. But it was a very interesting day.
(06:17):
So I'm just I'm just glad to be here with
people that are not authors of Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yes, yes, we're hard to find it.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Apparently was hard for the committee to find it, right.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Just the one person.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
All right, well, skyt, we are gonna start digging into
Project twenty twenty five. P. Two five, let's call it
so we don't have to keep saying the syllable sounds cooler.
Just let's just all figure it out for ourselves what
we want to call it.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But before we do that, we do.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Like to get to know our guest a little bit better.
Great asking you, what is something from your search history
that's revealing about who you are?
Speaker 4 (06:55):
My search history, Well, I'm taking this from an airport,
and I was actually just searching the quickest place I
could get a very quick diet coke here in the airport,
So that both tells you that I appreciate diet coke.
I know this is a kool Aid sponsored podcast, so
I like to I like col too. But it shows
you that, and it shows you that, you know, I don't.
(07:16):
I don't. I don't do pepsi.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, you don't talk with diapepsy. You sit down to
a table at a restaurant, they say you you order
a die coke and they say it's die pepsi okay.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And I say iced tea please.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Oh wow, You're like, I don't like it that much, right.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Right, I think I'm They're probably lovely people and a
great company or something.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But I'm a Dike.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Oh yeah, pepsi definitely.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
You know, I'm trying. So we don't we don't need
to make we don't need to you.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Know, right exactly. We're pretty loose about that.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
But uh yeah, I I I'm a staunch Dike coke guy.
I have as I've become less habitual in my diet
coke consumption.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Which is good. That's that's good.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
It's a it's a big positive for me and my lifestyle.
I will say I've now will have a diapepsia every
once in a while and be fine with it because
I'm just not getting that every day, all.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
The chemicals every day.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I thought I would become more sensitive and be like
only the finest for me, but I think it's more.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Like, yeah, I just pour it down my throat. I
don't care.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Yeah, well that's I'm glad that that. That's admirable that
you're drinking less diet coke. And I've actually been trying
to limit my consumption too, which is why the searches
retells you.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm failing in that right right right, like fastest version
now immediately with haste. I'm curious as somebody who you know,
you're testifying on Capitol Hill. You're looking at all the
imaginations of you know this this think tank, the Meritage Foundation,
and how they're trying to just put the country backwards.
I know that you must have also had your eye
(09:06):
on this trend that's on the internet about marinating diet cokes,
and I was curious about what your thoughts that I
don't you know.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
What, I'm don't even called to testify on that, so.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, oh got it. But have you heard about this.
There's like a thing we were covering where people insisted
that of a coke. Yeah, lookah yeah, but the concept
being that if a diet coke is in the refrigerator
for like, let's say, five days, that's the optimal I
(09:36):
guess temperature for them taste the best? Or do you
always like diet coke molecules aligned?
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I am a I am a fountain diet coke person. Oh,
I like a diet coke out of the fountain, Which
is why when I'm in an airport, there's an opportunity
because there, Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
You're a connoisseur.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Now I could have just been this diet coke influencer here.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Like it's only mountain you don't you won't have it
any other way?
Speaker 4 (10:02):
No, I mean I will drink it from a can,
but I really prefer I think the fountain is good.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
There's something about the plastic twenty ounce bottles that for
some reason, like by the uh, make sure the coke
is marinated five days in the refrigerator logic that like
plastic bottles make it taste warm to me, you make
it taste bad to me for some reason. I don't
know if it's because it takes me too long to
(10:27):
drink it, like it takes me a whole thirty seconds
to drink it instead of like fifteen, so it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Warms up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
But there's something that even though I'm sure the same
chemical concoction is being poured into the plastic bottle that's
being poured into the can specifically, the mini can, really
hits hard for me. I do. I do love a
fountain as well, but fountain obviously always variable.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
There you go, There you go. That was a good question.
I love it. I'm going to ask the scene that
what about your search history telling that's great?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, sometimes it could be a little tricky, I'm sure
an employee, because that's invasive.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
What your search history is.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Yeah, yeah, if.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
You don't know, that's a mistake with coworkers, fine. Uh.
And then instead of just interacting with them in any way,
you just have a notebook and go uh huh and
make little like notations.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Check what are you writing down there? Nothing? Nothing, No,
it's just real. That is real interesting. What is something
that you and you are?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
As you mentioned in an airport, So if people are
hearing in the background some voices, those are airport announcements.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Airports.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Get get into the atmosphere. This is an atmospheric show.
There we go what is sky something you think is underrated?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
You know, I think.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Seeing a movie in a movie theater is underrated. I've
been seeing I've been trying to now that now that
you can see movies so easily at home or streaming,
my family and I have been going to the theater.
We went this weekend. I saw Wild Robot. I have
an eight year old, so I saw Wild Robot. I
saw Transformers last weekend. That was good too, But I
think Transformers last weekend, I think the whole like going
(12:11):
into the theater, getting the popcorn. I think it's I
think it's underrated right now.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, well it's it's so easy to watch things on streaming,
and I always find myself fighting the urge, Like I
know I could watch it at home, but also I
love me. I like a fountain Cherry Coke out the Founder.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
And they have those those machines now you can pick
it freestyles.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, I'm always tempted to try a different one, but
I'm like, no, I don't want to be disappointed. I
don't want to be just I'm just going to stick
to Cherry. But no, Yeah, I love going to the
theater now and I'm.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Cherry coke out a freestyle. That's your move, Cherry coke
out of a freestyle machine, you know, so where it
has like the red syrup shooting in and it's yeah,
I do that with a coke zero.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
That's true. And I'm such a purist. I show up
and go to the freestyle and still just get the
plane dicto.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
And that in and of itself is its own pleasure.
You have all the choices in the world at your
fingertips and you're still showing you know, the one person
who is still just going the classic DC.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I also have an eight year old and he is
obsessed with robots right now, and so we saw Transformers
one last weekend and I was saying on yesterday's episode,
I made the mistake of letting him talk me into
letting him watch the like Shia Labuff Transformers original, and
(13:36):
he watched that and it's now his favorite movie of
all time, and I think it has like profoundly changed
his personality going forward.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
He liked it so much. So just I would.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Recommend don't don't do that, which I probably weren't going to.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
The Wild Robot just back on the Wild Wild Robot
is good, So that would be a good man.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I know, I'm excited that was Jack. Think you about
saying that take the robot, take the robot pendulum in
then other direction and be like, what about a kind robot?
It's just getting along with nature?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, what if robots weren't contracted with the Pentagon too?
Fight Forever Wars? Yeah, the Chevy.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Product placement is so well.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Anyways, what is something Sky that you think is overrated?
Speaker 4 (14:24):
I think rest is overrated.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Rest.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Yeah, I like resting, but I think that there's a
lot of stuff to do in the world and things
to see and work to do, which we're going to
talk about, and so I think rest is a bit overrated.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
How do you look at it, like in the sense
that you because you think of everything that's happening, like
I don't have time to rest, or that while it
is good, maybe too much of the rest is a
is a bad thing. How do you or how are
you looking at rest?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think more like it's good and we should all
rest and but yeah we need that, but that I
think that what really gets me energized is being able
to go out and see the world or do your things.
So that leads to a lot of compromises on vacation
where we'll do some resting but also some exploring and
those kinds of things. And then I think, in this moment,
(15:14):
which we're going to chat about in like kind of
where the country is, we've all got to rest and
take care of ourselves. But there's also work to do
on this podcast or in Congress or wherever you know,
or at the movie theater. But there's a lot of
work to do.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
As long as I get my ten to thirteen hours
of sleep a night, I feel like I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Ready ready to put it out, put in a solid
two hours back to all right, Sky, great work on
the overrated, underrated.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and
get into Project twenty twenty five. We'll be right back,
and we're back.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
We're back. Oh yeah, blue cool, all.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Right, So let's get into it. Democrats are saying Project
twenty twenty five is basically the entire blueprint for the
next presidential administration if Trump wins. So I have a
loose theory that I'm working on here because you see
all of the wild shit that Trump is willing to
say about everything, just like straight up immigrants are going
(16:28):
to come into your kitchen and cut your throat and like,
you know, all all the lies, all the violence, and
and yet he runs away from Project twenty twenty five.
I'm curious to hear your take. Is there stuff in
there that he's really afraid of being associated with or
has he just not read it and he's scared of
(16:50):
like that there's something in there that's how many pages
is it? I feel like I feel like that at
least has part of has to do with partially why
he's just like backing away from it. But yeah, I'm curious.
How much of the influence do you think the Heritage
Foundation has when it comes to a next Trump presidency.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Well, the Heritage Foundation itself says that about two thirds
of the policies that it proposes the prior administration implemented
and administrations before that implemented. That's on its website. So
I think we got to take them at their word
that they're quite effective at shaping policy. And that's concerning
for the vast majority of people in the country, Which
is why I think the former president is seeking to
(17:33):
distance himself, is that there's just no mandate at all
for these policies. Polling is out, there's new pulling out
from last week. I mean, we didn't really need the polling, thetalysis,
but it's just like like four percent. I think it's
like just you know, very very low of people that
would approve of the overall policy agenda, which is why
I think you see him trying to distance himself from
(17:54):
those because there's just no mandate for.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
It, right right. And I'm like, I think people who
listen to the show, we always hear we understand what
Project twenty twenty five is and just sort of like
how this could all, you know, pretty much curtail all
of our rights in most cases, But like I'm just
for in a broader context, can you just sort of
talk about like what the Heritage Foundation is, Like, I
(18:18):
understand they're a think tank. They've had they've been making
sort of playbooks for conservative administrations, I think since the eighties,
But I think you have again, like how Jack was
saying in the beginning, there's the emphasis like this could
be everything that the Trump administration does. Then you have people,
I'm sure because of the optics are so terrible, they're like,
I mean I don't really know him or that or
what this is about. But just to give an idea,
(18:39):
like again, I know because in their fundraising they say,
like the Trump administration took sixty four percent of our
policy exactly exactly. Yeah, So how why is it the
Heritage Foundation specifically that's really the one pushing all this forward?
Speaker 4 (18:52):
So I think this is a great and interesting question.
I mean, the Heritage Foundation is a known sort of
institution on the right that's very well funded. But what's
interesting about this project twenty twenty five, this mandate for
leadership that they've put out is over one hundred other
organizations are banning together with the Heritage Foundation in this effort.
And some of those if you go look at the list,
(19:14):
I think it's on their website, it's and we have
some references at Democracy Forward you can go look at
some of those institutions are ones that were active and
overturning Roe versus Wade. They're institutions that oppose public education,
their institutions that have opposed voting access. And so it's
not just Heritage, but that overall ecosystem that is commonly funded,
(19:34):
very highly coordinated, as you can tell. And I think
that's one thing we want to make sure people understand.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Right yeah, because it feels like it's sort of like
a wish list, whether you're like one of these billionaires
is like, I hate regulation. Can you do something about
that too? Then the anti abortion movement, who also has
like there's a like I get now, why is it
sort of like this avengers of backwards groups because like
everyone they're like, oh, and our little thing also gets
represented in those two.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
You know, there was a question in the prior administration
about whether true conservatives, you know, people the country's interesting
because all, you know, folks see things all differently. Some
people are pepsi drinker, some are coke drinker, some are liberal,
some are conservatives. And there was a real question in
the last administration about what traditional conservatives would do, would
they would Trump be one bridge too far with this
(20:21):
anti democratic at the point that we can't you know,
there's now opposition over the right to vote again, there's
opposition over basic rights. Are we moving forward? Are we
moving backwards? And really the prior administration and now this
Project twenty twenty five answers that that there's a whole
lot of these groups that have found common cause with
each other that have been pushed further and further to
(20:42):
the right in a way that doesn't represent the vast
majority of people. So why you see people like Vice
President Cheney rebuffing so much of this anti democratic activity.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Now, there was like an architect of Project twenty twenty
five who is captured. I think he works at the
Heritage Foundation or worked at the Heritage Foundation and was
like captured on hidden camera basically being like, yeah, of
course he's going to pretend he's not on board, but guys,
he's like with us all the way, we've got this.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Didn't that happen like this summer that was that.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Was released, And we've seen a number of videos that
have been released former Trump administration officials, of course, many
of whom authored parts of the document. And so yeah,
I mean I think that there's no way, you know,
you can try to run, but there's no way for
this movement to hide from the associations with Project twenty
twenty five. You guys know this about my background. But
Democracy Forward, we had to take the prior administration to
(21:36):
court and we sued on a lot of the same
policies that appear again in this document. So there's just
really no way to distance it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I think, Yeah, and it feels like just because all
of the attention right now, they've feels like this summer
has been a lot of like like a lot of
pr spin, you know, from because Paul Dan's right was
the person who was like the director of Project twenty
twenty five and when he was I don't know, fired,
he says, wrongly terminated, like the Heritage Foundation says like
(22:03):
he was his behavior was oh, very unconservative, like do
not look at Donald Trump. But for us it was
a ridge too far, well like with that kind of
a thing, because I think that was another move where
people like, oh my gosh, they that was like a
headline like the director of Project twenty twenty five has
been fired, as if to sort of make people be like, oh,
maybe things are losing momentum, but what what's what's it
(22:25):
been like for the Heritage Foundation just generally how they're
maneuvering because it seems like, oh, everybody knows about this
and if you read it, it's so bad. What do
we do to try and make this seem like normal
or acceptable.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Well, we've seen that, I mean we saw a number
of these witnesses just I guess it was last week,
two weeks ago when I was on Capitol Hill that
had their talking points about, oh, this is nothing, nothing
to see here, truly nothing to see here. There made
nine hundred pages, but nothing to see. And the American
people I think are smarter than that, and that's why
you see them. So, you know, rebuking this agenda. But
(22:58):
I think the other thing that we're trying to make
sure people understand, and you guys have talked about it
on the show in different ways, but Project twenty twenty
five is already here. It's not something that could happen.
It's we're already seeing in states like Florida and Texas
and Arkansas and Mississippi and places where we have to
go to court because there are attempts to ban books
or to control ideas, to ban reproductive health care. So
(23:22):
we're seeing a lot of these policies and ideas already
afoot in states with very far right leadership, already afoot
by these organizations that are going into court and trying
to sue on fringe legal theories to restrict the right
to vote, or to restrict the right to reproductive healthcare,
any number of things. And so we want to make
sure that people understand that that there's a lot that
(23:42):
we can be doing in our own communities now to
oppose these really harmful and anti democracy, anti freedom ideas.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Right, and so some of these things that seem like
fringe and like, you know, there're stories that are happening
in other states if we don't live in Florida, and
then you hear from people who are like, I'm in Florida,
it's as bad as it seems. The idea is that
it would just be national, like it like all of
those things would now be attempted on a national scale.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
So there are, yeah, there's pages throughout Projects twenty twenty
five that says that they want to adopt, you know,
at the federal level, certain ideas around education or policies
that we've seen in states like Florida and Texas where
there has just been a lot of restrictions on the
freedom to read, the freedom to ideas, the ability for
schools to serve people in courts. We see, you know,
(24:33):
there's this you all I think have talked about this
with the Commstock Act, which is this Victorian era law
that there has been a movement to resurrect, even though
it's been broadly abrogated. That there's been a movement to
resurrect to try to enforce criminal penalties on the transportation
of obscene materials in the United States, which which it
defines to include materials that might be utilized in the
(24:56):
provision of pregnancy termination and abortion. And that's actually something
that these the same far right groups that are behind
Project twenty twenty five are already trying to push in
the court. It's something we heard a little bit of
a discussion of this last Supreme Court term from Justices
Alito and Thomas and the Alliance for Defending Freedom, which
is one of the groups behind the plan. And so
I think that's that's the other piece of this is
(25:16):
we need to be able to look at this extremism
and not blink and understand it's here and use the
tools that we have to oppose it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Right, So I even like with you know, I know,
the huge sort of tenets within Project twenty twenty five
as it relates to abortion are essentially ban mifipristone enforced
the Comstock Act, and then also like collect data from
states about abortions performed, including like the state of residence
for the mother and things like that to really just
(25:45):
clamp down in every way. I've also heard people say
like that for them, it's like, if we can just
get the Comstock Acting force, that's kind of good enough,
because I guess the logic extends to the fact that
they would essentially say, like any even supplies being sent
to an abortion clinic would be deemed unlawful, and therefore
you have like this de facto shut down of clinics.
(26:06):
Is there is there like debate within the anti abortion
movement of like maybe we just can we just really
press hard on the Comstock Act versus others.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
They want anything that will chill reproductive health care, whether
it's lawful or not, whether it's fringe or not, and
Comstock is certainly one of them. I would be remiss
if I didn't say that these are the same people
that for years insisted they wanted to return things to
the state, and now they're pursuing national strategies to try
to prevent, you know, reproductive health care, even in even
(26:33):
in states that that are protecting in it have permitted it.
And so I think that that, you know, I think
we need to also be able to look at that
hypocrisy and understand what we're up against.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Right all right, let's uh, let's take a quick break,
and I want to come back and talk about whether
and how this could even fuck with their ability to
deal with the weather. Yeah, we'll be right back to it.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
And we are back. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And so Project twenty twenty five makes it possible for
the administration to or a administration to dismantle NOAH and
the National Weather Service. And so, I mean, just up top,
the National Weather Service is the thing that gives us,
(27:27):
like most of our weather information.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Absolutely, yeah, I mean it is. And I mean, you know,
you said what's overrated. I mean I didn't say the
weather app because I'm you know, sitting here in an airport.
You guys were all trying to their storms everywhere, trying
to figure out So even when we utilize weather information
from whatever our favorite services are, lots of that is
built off of the publicly available Weather Service that enables
(27:49):
all of us to access information not just about what
the temperatures are going to be or how much it rained,
but about the progression of storms or other things that
we need to know. And of course would be remiss
if we didn't acknowledge that we're talking amidst so many
people in our country that are losing things, and there's
been lots of flooding throughout as a result of these storms.
But yet Project twenty twenty five would dismantle that National
(28:13):
Weather Service because it views our Weather Service and the
data that is collected around weather patterns as a threat
to their sort of ideological view that climate change is
not real and and data and evidence are a problem
if you if you want to, if you want to
sort of pedal and misinformation, And so they want to
(28:35):
dismantle the Weather Service.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, right, I'm seeing that this.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I think there was. So first of all, the head
of the federal or not federal, the Heritage Foundation recently
had an op ed in the USA Today, and then
the USA Today also like recently fact checked this fact.
And they're like, it just gives them the ability to
dismantle the NAA and the National Weather Service. It doesn't
have like it's not doing for it.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
It's like it says it should be broken up. How
else to take.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, specifically says that the NOAA is one of the
main drivers of the climate change alarm industry. Correct, So yeah,
and why do you think they're calling for it? If
and giving themselves the ability to do it if they're
you know, not going to do it. We weird things
(29:26):
happening at the USA today. Apparently with regards to Project
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It feels like sort of like one one part is
like obviously the curtailing of rights is a huge part,
and then the other was like, erase the receipts that
allow for people to call for progress, because if you
have no data about the environment, then that's one less
tool people have to like rhetorically vest us in saying
we need to take care of the planet.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
And that's one thing we saw. So in the prior
administration there was an effort to stop collecting data or
to undermine data. So this isn't you know, this isn't
just what's in Project twenty twenty five. This is what happened.
Lawyers at Democracy Forward we had to go to court
to stop the Trump administration when they wanted to stop
collecting wage data around demographics. They just didn't want to
(30:10):
collect it. You don't have a wage problem, a wage
gap problem, or any inequity in pay if you don't
collect the data. And we were able to win that suit.
But that's the type of trend we see, including with
the National Weather Service and what they're saying. I will say,
and I think you all have seen this, but on
our website at Democracyforward dot org, we have a people's
(30:33):
guide to Democracy Forward. We have a people's Guide to
Project twenty twenty five, and it actually has all of
these things and has the page numbers in Project twenty
twenty five. So when you mentioned the fact checking, we've
tried to do that for the American people so that
you don't have to go through all nine hundred pages,
but you can see these things. And the Weather Service
is one of the areas that we flagged, you know,
(30:54):
right there with the page numbers that you're reading off of.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
So right, so if you need to get into a
spirited Paul debate, you can be like no, and here
look right here where it says that. Because there are
plenty of people who are so dismissive too, because depending
on where you hear news, people are gonna be like,
it's just a friend, it's full of fringe stuff that
nobody's listening to. But again, anyone, like we were saying
at the top of the segment, is like no, about
(31:17):
nearly two thirds of the policy you know, ideas are
coming from the Heritage Foundation. So to act like it isn't,
I think is a huge.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, I really worry about, like because the ability
to dismantle all of the important things that the federal
government does for us just feels like it's very low
hanging fruit in the United States. Like I just feel
like those stories don't get told that, like, oh, the
(31:47):
this is your tax dollars at work, Like unless someone's
saying sarcastically, they are your tax dollars at work, folks,
Like people don't actually ever report on what the National
Weather Serve, Like the important work that is being done
by these things is just treated as like a given
or it's like there's a there's a great anecdote and uh,
(32:08):
I think it's a Michael Lewis book where somebody is like,
why would we continue funding the National Weather Service when
we have weather dot Com, like we we have a
privatized version, And he's like, yeah, so they get all
their data from the.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
National Weather Service exactly, that's uh.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
But nobody like the way I feel like that this
like Wall Street mindset has invaded everybody in the United
States and they just don't want it to be true
that like all this federal government investment has given us
so many of the good things that we have today,
and so it just it feels like this is going
(32:46):
to be even though it would be. You know, we
saw what happened, like what Trump has done with weather
information that isn't convenient for him. We saw him like
change a hurricane map with a sharpie, like in front
of people, like on.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
A national stage.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Like imagine what he'd do behind closed doors to actual
weather reporting at a time when global climate change makes
the case for scientists that we should be very afraid.
And like, you know, he obviously is on the side
where like you know, with fossil fuel companies and the
GOP that are claiming it's not you know, he's gonna
(33:26):
he's going to use that power.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I feel like, in really damaging ways and probably be
like and every hurricane will be called Obama or Clinton
after this. There's only two names, and they're all bad
and they're always the reason for your demise. But yeah,
that's I think I'm also curious too, like there's aside
from again the total just taking back of rights for
nearly every single person in the United States, what are
(33:52):
some of like the other policy goals that are being
underreported on because I think rightly, the like the huge
stuff that affects the largest number of people gets a lot.
But I feel like there's a lot of other things
that are really really could like a small policy shift
that can actually resonate in a huge way that we're
not really talking about absolutely.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I mean, one of them is overtime pay and the
eligibility standard for overtime. There's a call in the document
to change to revise that standard, which would disqualify millions
of Americans for overtime pay. So if they revise a
standard so that if you make a certain amount of
money and you qualify, now they may say, well that's
(34:30):
too much money, so you don't qualify for overtime pay.
And at a time where it's very hard for people
to make ends meet, this is a really troubling and
I think the estimates are about four point three million
people could lose eligibility to overtime. And you know that's extreme,
Like who doesn't believe that you should be paid for
the extra hours that you're working these jobs? But that's
(34:50):
that's one of the ones that I would point out.
The civil service has gotten a lot of there's been
there's been some press I think around schedule aff or
the attempts to purge the civil service, but I think
there's been less conversation about what that really means. It's
not just actually about people that work for the federal
government losing their job or being at risk of losing
their jobs. Certainly that would happen, but think about all
(35:13):
the things federal government employees do that we really take
for granted. I mean, think about an agency like the
FDA that's keeping our drug and food supply. Sing do
you want someone that's not an expert, like you know,
opining on sort of the particulate matter in a you know,
in a certain substance and whether that's safe or not.
I mean, that's really scary for all of us, and
(35:35):
especially for those of us that are raising kids and
active in our communities. And so I think those are
some of the things that I think people are starting
to see it. It's unsettling people don't like Project twenty
twenty five, but there's real ways this could like impact
one's day to day life in these real profound ways.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Because I just look at even like recently, there's like
that bores head facility had a listeria out and a
lot of that they're tying back to the things that
were rolled back under Trump to be like, well, it's
made a little too much oversight in this food processing
facility and now you have like listeria outbreaks because it
maybe wasn't deemed important enough or that we can trust
(36:15):
a company be like, yeah, man, just you're fine as
long as you guys are holding up to standards, will
believe you, and then cut to an outbreak of listeria
that's actually had terrible, terrible consequences for people.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Yeah. I mean another thing is like, so are prescription
drugs right? And the prescription drugs for many people are
not as affordable as they should be or as accessible
as they should be. And so Congress actually, under the
Biden the Harris administration, when it passed the Inflation Reduction Act,
there's a provision in there that allows Medicare to negotiate
drug prices, which would overall lead to greater affordability. We
(36:48):
right now at Democracy Forward, represent hundreds of thousands of
doctors through medical associations like the American Medical Association and
others who are weighing in in court saying like this
is really important for public health. Twenty twenty five calls
for the repeal of that. And so where we've seen
some progress and seen some things that can make things
more affordable, make it easier for people to make ends
meet to take care of their family, product twenty twenty
(37:10):
five would would call that back head Start. And lots
of people in this country have either been a beneficiary
of head Start or families that are relying on Headstart
for early childhood development for young people. They want to
eliminate Headstart. I mean, this is basic stuff and a
lot of these programs are programs that have been supported
for many years by both Democrats and Republicans. They're not
(37:33):
particularly controversial programs, but yet it calls for the elimination
of them.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Also, the dismantling of the FBI, I believe is in
there and not for the good reasons, but rather because
they're mean to Donald Trump. This was just eliminating for
me because I was like, oh shit, are we going
to have to spend the next four years rooting for
the FBI again? Like that should I feel like that
should be Kamala Harris's slogan, just like do you want
(38:02):
to spend another four years on the same side as
guys like James Komi in the FBI. No, you don't
like vote for me, you don't want to cheer for
the FBI again, guys, Come on.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
I think the other thing, like you talk about in
the work you do, Skuy, is like the idea or
rather the fact that a lot of these terrible policies
it's here already. We don't need Project twenty twenty five
to know that these threats are actually clear and present
and in effect. And like again, even if Trump is defeated,
I think my worrying, like other people's is obviously the
(38:36):
ethos of this document lives on until you know, everything
is found to be illegal by a Supreme Court or
something like that. But like in Indiana, you're referencing like
states already having policies in place. Like in Indiana, I think
the Attorney General launched a site where basically parents can
docs and snitch on teachers that share quote objectionable curricula,
policies or programs, and they relate a lot of that
(38:59):
do like being justices of our country read like systemic
racism and other things like that that plague our society.
But what, like I guess, the long term to fight
all of this these mini Project twenty twenty fives, is
it that like again, the first step is probably to
defeat Project twenty twenty twenty five at a federal level.
(39:20):
But then now at the state level, what does that
fight look like for like legally and also just for
people to be aware and like, what is that sort
of look like to you?
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Lots of work to do. So yes, first of all,
it could get worse, So let's not endorse Project twenty
twenty five at the federal level, which I think is
people are understanding. But at the state level, one thing
is now we know this is a deeply unpopular agenda,
and so it's important that we take a close look
at what's being proposed in the states, and if it
(39:51):
appears in this Project twenty twenty five playbook, we need
to be saying that so that people understand what's at
stake in these policies. But the state of sessions will
start in the new year, and there will be a
lot of work to educate policymakers about what people's needs are,
and we and others will work on that with communities
in the states. And then when states pass unlawful and
(40:14):
harmful laws, it's time to go to court. And you know,
at Democracy Forward, we had to sue Texas because they're
blacklisting companies for their sustainable investments, I mean actually putting
businesses on a blacklist, and a state that's purporting my
home state, but a state that's purporting to be pro business,
I mean in Arkansas, We've had to sue to block
criminal penalties on librarians that Sarah Huckaby Sanders signed into law.
(40:38):
And so there's a lot of these extreme ideas already
taking foot, already becoming law, and there are things that
people can do. And so that's a great you know
plug for following our work at democracyfoard dot org. And
we can connect your listeners with a lot of other
organizations too that are going to be doing that work.
But we can't take our foot off the gas, even
if we're able to defeat this at the federal level,
because the threats are here and they're real, right.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, And I think it's easy to forget too where
you're like that thing's too wild to pass, and like
and it doesn't happen. You don't realize, Oh, it's because
there were a lot of lawsuits that prevented that. So
I think sometimes it's easy to take for granted. It's
like the actual work that's done to be like no, no, no,
See they say something wild and out of pocket, and
then you have to go in and sue to prevent that.
(41:21):
Otherwise the door just opens. And then which and what.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
That means is that people have to decide that they're
going to use their position that they're in to push back.
So in Texas, we're representing an association of businesses that's
having to use their position. We represent the generic manufacturer
of mythi pristone that has sued in West Virginia to
block an abortion van that makes it impossible to access
(41:45):
them and utilize their medication in the state. And these are,
you know, everyday decisions. And then we represent people like
parents and teachers that make a decision. But these are
everyday folks or small businesses that are deciding to use
their position in this time. So, you know, rest can
be overrated a little bit, even though it's good and
we've all got to get to work.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, just three years into the Trump administration and he's
able to put these plans into effect like that it
really does feel like it would be a complete like
post apocalyptic like what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Would you imagine?
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Well, I think that we see a vision of that
in Project twenty twenty five, but in other things as well,
And you can look around the globe too to see
that the types of democratic backsliding in twenty twenty one.
After January sixth, then I think January sixth is a
good place to look to see what things could look like.
But in January sixth, the United States has added to
(42:49):
a list of global backsliding democracies. And I mean we
are now on a list of democracies in the world
that are not moving forward but have been put moving
backwards because of election and violence and rises and political violence,
and so so I think that we can look at
some of the things that have happened in this country
and see that and what that could look like on
(43:10):
a greater and broader scale. They've been clear that they
want to engage in a retribution agenda. Last week there
was a news story that suggested that they would want
to jail people who criticize the Supreme Court, which is
a court whose majority has reversed the rights for over
half the population in this country, you know, on their watch.
(43:30):
And so I think that there's really no telling where
this goes. But the main thing that we know is
that one of the top tools that sort of more
authoritarian governments and leaders and far right leaders have is
to try to try to convince people that there's nothing
that they can do, that there's no reason to fight back,
there's no reason to sort of push back, that they
(43:51):
have it all in the bag, and this is where
we're going and there's nothing that you can do and
that you're powerless. And what the American story tells us,
and what our work every day tells us is that
people do have the power in this country. And so
that's what, you know, that's what we will be focused
on in all scenarios is making sure that people can
use all the tools our democracy provides to push back
and to defend their freedoms.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
So what what are some of those tools that you
would say like that just to people who aren't you know,
legal experts, or what is ship posting?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I mean obviously ship posting is the main one, but
are there any others?
Speaker 4 (44:26):
Or podcasting? So look, I think using you know, we
say this all the time that I mean certainly registering
and voting, but using your voice is important, and it's
not just important on social media or on podcast or
at big meetings. It is important that we're having these
conversations in our communities, that we're talking to people about
what it feels like to be someone who has either
(44:49):
experienced or rights violation or has a you know, has
a kid that's affected by one of these policies, or
you know how to love one or family member that
is or are themselves right, and that we're having these conversations.
So using the voice and making sure that people are
connected and not able to distance themselves and their experiences
from these broader ideas I think is really important. Obviously,
(45:12):
people can use the third branch of government, which they
don't utilize as much as they should, which is our
court system. And that's what we do at Democracy Forward
is we want to make sure people we represent all
of our clients free of charge. We want to make
sure that people have access to the courts and can
challenge harmful and unlawful activities in their local communities and
their state communities are at the federal level, and then
we see that people you know, use their voice in
(45:36):
federal government and state government as well. But there's a
lot that we can all do in this time to
stand up for our values and to stand up for
our country.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Great, when you're talking about democracies backsliding, what are some
examples that people could like look to to read about
in other countries? Like, what are some other countries that
are experiencing the same sort of democratic backsliding, either now
or throughout history.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
Yeah, so there's a there's a great report. So if
you google the twenty twenty one Democratic BACKSID, it was
an International Institute of Democracy in Electoral Assistance idea International
Institute of Democracy and Electoral Assistance is what places the
US on the list, and you can read about other
countries that are also on that list. And then the
Carnegie Institute has done some really good research and publication
(46:24):
about the types of trends in the United States. What
is happening is that there's this active, what we call
a countermajoritarian movement, right, so, a movement that doesn't represent
the vast majority of people in this country, that nevertheless
is wielding large amounts of political power, whether that is
through misinformation, whether it's through gerrymandering and structural issues that
(46:44):
are keeping people from being represented. Project twenty twenty five,
by the way, this is what I told Congress is
an example of that. You have a policy that is
completely unpopular and harmful to vast majority of the people,
but yet it is taking this national and it's because
of this ecosystem of far right actors. So you can
read more about that, and I'm happy to come back
(47:06):
on and chat about it. But that is I think
that we have to view Project twenty twenty five in
this broader context, which is the type of this type
of testimony I gave a few weeks ago, and also
just remembering January sixth, I mean, we had a disruption
in the peaceful transition of presidential power for the first
time in our countries of modern history, and so those
(47:27):
are really concerning.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Well, thank you so much Scott for coming on the show.
Thank you for having We really appreciate you taking the
time out of your busy schedule. Where can people find you,
follow you, find out more about your work.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Yeah, go to Democracyford dot org. Definitely get the people's
guide to Project twenty twenty five, but learn more about
our work. You can follow us on all of our
social media channels. We even have TikTok and have some
interesting videos people love that have been going viral, especially
around Product twenty twenty five. So Democracy Forward, Democracyford dot
org and I'm sky Perriman. You can find me on
(47:59):
Twitter and It's and all this channels as well.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Right, and is there a work of media that you've
been enjoying?
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Last question?
Speaker 4 (48:07):
A work of media? Not this, I mean in addition
to this, Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Thank you, I mean it could be this, Yeah, it's
could be this good and wild.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Robot, Wild Robot was good. You know, I really I
enjoy I have been enjoying sort of follow up thing.
I think that I do think that a lot of
videos that are being made and posted on like sort
of Instagram reels that are taking perspectives from various you know,
local media. I read a lot of local papers. I
read a lot of local papers. Had a mentor one
(48:37):
time that told me, whenever you go to a tad
travel a lot for work, you know, pick up the
local paper and read it. I love reading the editorial
pages of local papers and seeing what's up in communities,
including the small town that I'm from, which I still
take that paper. So I love doing that, but recently
we've been seeing lots of great influencers and creators be
able to put a lot of that perspective, you know,
(48:59):
put a lot of that protect about on reels and
video and that's that's really fun and I think it's
it's a good way to engage cross generationally. We want
to watch a lot of those at our house with
young people and it's great, awesome, great.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
All right, well, thank you again for joining us. And Miles,
where can people find you as their working media you've
been enjoying?
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yes, find me Twitter and Instagram at Miles of Gray.
Speaker 5 (49:20):
If you like basketball podcast, Jack and I always have
a basketball podcast called Miles and Jacko Mad Boosties. If
you like Tindy Day Fiance, I also talk about that
on four twenty Day Fiance. Work of Media.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
I like, so, as somebody who famously has not seen
all the Marvel films, we wanted to watch that new
Catherine Han like Agatha all the Time show. But then
I was like, I think I need to see WandaVision
before I understand this. And then they're like they're like,
to understand WandaVision, you need to know all these other things.
So I decide. I just look, I'm jumping into WandaVision,
and so far I really like it, even though I'm
(49:52):
probably missing a lot of the references, but so far
enjoying it. So I'm just gonna say that. So yeah,
I'm I'm I'm with I'm rocking with Wanda right now
if you read.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
The King Jam's Bible and the Iliad, because I feel
like you're gonna need to understand both of those to
get one division, and then those will.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Explain a couple of the other.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Lady, yeah, right, right right, and finally get up to WandaVision.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
No, not yet, not yet.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore Obrian
piece of media. I've been enjoyed. So I read the
book three Body Problem, and then the second in the trilogy,
The Dark Forest. I have not finished the third one,
but I just watched the HBO or sorry no Netflix
adaptation by benioffen Wis and it's fine.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
But I did enjoy it because it.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Has a scene involving nano fibers that I had like
in the book blew my mind. I was like, this
is one of the coolest cinematic scenes that I could imagine,
can't wait to see what they do with that, and
they did it right. I feel like it was pretty
wild scene. Anyways, you can find us on Twitter at
(51:04):
daily Zeikeeist. We're at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We
have a Facebook fanpage and a website dailyzeikeist dot com
where we post our episodes and our footnotes. So we'll
link off to the information that we talked about in
today's episode, as well as a song that we think
you might enjoy. Miles, what's the song you think people
might enjoy?
Speaker 2 (51:21):
This is a track from the New Jersey based artist
fifty four Ultra and it's called Heaven Knows and it's
again another one of these like modern bands that's doing
something that I was like, is this like a last
like late sixties motown B side I've never heard? But no,
it's a song from like this the last two years
and the guy's whole aesthetic is really dope and if
you like that kind of music, you're gonna love this one.
(51:42):
So this is Heaven Knows by the artist fifty four Ultra.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Oh right, we will link off to that in the
footnote for Daily Zeigeist is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcaster, wherever Fine podcast will give it away for free.
That is going to do it for us this morning.
We are back this afternoon to tell you what is
trending and we will talk to you all that.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Bye bye
Oh yeah, and this show is sponsored by kool Aid,
so I might be saying, oh yeah, throughout East drink
the kool Aid.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Yeah exactly, shout out of presenting sponsors, the Heritage Foundation.
So so yeah, we got a bone to pick with you, girl.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three point fifty eight,
episode two of Darn Daily's Like Guys production of iHeart Radio.
And it's a podcast where we take a deep dive
into America's shared consciousness. We are still America's only undecided podcasts.
The New York Times hit me up.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
They said, you're undecided. Yes, you're undecided.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Oh my god, can we interview you forty seven times?
I'm like, buy you some nachos to watch for debate.
I mean, we do have another debate coming up, right,
Maybe we should The New York Times. We're dead serious,
we're undecided.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Both sides look.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
For a.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, we truly don't know what to make of it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Come through and throw us a viewing party.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, we're super down. Oh Miles, it is Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, October first, twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
It's October. Yeah, wow, I'm there. I said November. Take
your time. What are you doing it's October. I said
that months ago, but as the.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Election is mainly entertainment, so I'm just getting excited.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's almost sweeps time. Yeah. It's also look National Taco Day,
National Fruit at Workday, National Pumpkin Spice Day. I know
the companies couldn't hold back, but today is actually National
Pumpkin Spice Day, not August fifteenth, and.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
It's national we wait until October.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, exactly to imbibe the sweet spices of pumpkin. It's
National Green City Day, National Black Dog Day, National Hair Day,
National Homemade Cookies. It's a lot of days October first,
it's chalk full of them. So there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And we're not supposed to be eating fruit any other
days of the week.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
At work, yeah, national, I know, don't be greedy. National
Fruit at Work Day. It just encourage, encourages some fruitiness
to get through your day, is what the aim of
this day is, so sure, encourage the fruitiness around you. Anyways.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
My name is Jack O'Brien aka A little bit of
Venning read in my life. A little bit of Italian
get inside, a little bit of blue cheese.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
All I need a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Of Russian all for me, A little bit of Caesar,
oh my mind, A little bit of a thousand Island son,
a little ginger carrot, can't be wrong.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
A little mix of these then i'm your man.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, oh a little.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Then what do we call that long Island dressing? Because
we said, if long Island icty is all the alcohols,
that long Island dressing is.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
On the dressing, all the salad dressings. That one courtesy
of Snarfila on the Discord, in reference to the conversation
we were having about having a long Island salad dressing
with Blake Wexler. Of course, the Great Blake Webstler's episode
on Friday where Miles said that a long Island dressing
(03:19):
would be all the all the different dressings mixed together.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Very good episode that I.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Totally would have forgotten that conversation if you hadn't brought
it up. So shout out to Snarfila on the Discold.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Anyways, I'm thrilled to be joined.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
As always by my co host mister Miles Gregs Miles Gray.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Kay.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
He puts me down down like an idiot clown, and
it just always feels shitty. I know that vance kind
of sounds like Pence, but why call me Mike when
it's clearly jd Okay, shout out Halsey and Salad over there.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I wasn't sure if Trump had mistakenly called referred to
jd Vance as Mike, but that feels very much in
the realm of possibility. It's very hard to keep track
of all of the lapses in memory and cognition, but
I will just say, House and Salad, thank you so
much for that one, the only foul Out Boy Fallout
Boy song. I feel like I can faithfully do the
course of so appreciate.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Jam you do it so well.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Any chance that we get to hear Miles do fall
Out Boy, Housey on Salad, we salute you, Miles. We
are thrilled to be joined in our third seat, yes
by someone who it feels very embarrassing to be doing
our aks in front of. They are the president and
CEO of Democracy Forward, who recently testified on Capitol Hill
(04:32):
about the extremist ideas pushed by Project twenty twenty five
to the House Committee on Oversight and Accountability, which must
have felt like a nice warm up for this momentous
podcast Apparent. Please welcome sky Permos Guy. Welcome welcome, Welcome
to the main events.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Guy, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Oh thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
How do we compare so far to the to the
House Oversight and Accountability?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Well, you know that you.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Know that hearing the Republicans called it, and I don't
think they realized it, but every witness they invited either
authored or sponsored Project twenty twenty five, and so so
it was a it was a very interesting, it was
very interesting hearing, and it's going to be interesting to
be here with you guys. But neither of you, I think,
(05:22):
authored or sponsored Project twenty twenty five. So we're already ahead.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Nothing that I'm putting my name on.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah. Right, was this hearing sort of put together to
try and like assuage people's fears, like they're kind of no.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
They together a hearing that they called the quote unquote
legacy of incompetence and of the Biden administration. That was
the so called purpose of this hearing. And the four
witnesses that they got, all of whom ended up having
a deep connection to Project twenty twenty five. And of
(05:55):
course I was there to talk about the real threats
that we have to our democ received Project twenty twenty
five is included in that and the fact that many
of the things that Biden Harris administration have done for
people in communities have been stalled or blocked in the
courts or in other places by these same groups behind
Project twenty twenty five. But it was a very interesting day.
(06:17):
So I'm just I'm just glad to be here with
people that are not authors of Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yes, yes, we're hard to find it.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Apparently was hard for the committee to find it, right.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Just the one person.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
All right, well, skyt, we are gonna start digging into
Project twenty twenty five. P. Two five, let's call it
so we don't have to keep saying the syllable sounds cooler.
Just let's just all figure it out for ourselves what
we want to call it.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But before we do that, we do.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Like to get to know our guest a little bit better.
Great asking you, what is something from your search history
that's revealing about who you are?
Speaker 4 (06:55):
My search history, Well, I'm taking this from an airport,
and I was actually just searching the quickest place I
could get a very quick diet coke here in the airport,
So that both tells you that I appreciate diet coke.
I know this is a kool Aid sponsored podcast, so
I like to I like col too. But it shows
you that, and it shows you that, you know, I don't.
(07:16):
I don't. I don't do pepsi.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, you don't talk with diapepsy. You sit down to
a table at a restaurant, they say you you order
a die coke and they say it's die pepsi okay.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And I say iced tea please.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Oh wow, You're like, I don't like it that much, right.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Right, I think I'm They're probably lovely people and a
great company or something.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But I'm a Dike.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Oh yeah, pepsi definitely.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
You know, I'm trying. So we don't we don't need
to make we don't need to you.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Know, right exactly. We're pretty loose about that.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
But uh yeah, I I I'm a staunch Dike coke guy.
I have as I've become less habitual in my diet
coke consumption.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Which is good. That's that's good.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
It's a it's a big positive for me and my lifestyle.
I will say I've now will have a diapepsia every
once in a while and be fine with it because
I'm just not getting that every day, all.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
The chemicals every day.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I thought I would become more sensitive and be like
only the finest for me, but I think it's more.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Like, yeah, I just pour it down my throat. I
don't care.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Yeah, well that's I'm glad that that. That's admirable that
you're drinking less diet coke. And I've actually been trying
to limit my consumption too, which is why the searches
retells you.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm failing in that right right right, like fastest version
now immediately with haste. I'm curious as somebody who you know,
you're testifying on Capitol Hill. You're looking at all the
imaginations of you know this this think tank, the Meritage Foundation,
and how they're trying to just put the country backwards.
I know that you must have also had your eye
(09:06):
on this trend that's on the internet about marinating diet cokes,
and I was curious about what your thoughts that I
don't you know.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
What, I'm don't even called to testify on that, so.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, oh got it. But have you heard about this.
There's like a thing we were covering where people insisted
that of a coke. Yeah, lookah yeah, but the concept
being that if a diet coke is in the refrigerator
for like, let's say, five days, that's the optimal I
(09:36):
guess temperature for them taste the best? Or do you
always like diet coke molecules aligned?
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I am a I am a fountain diet coke person. Oh,
I like a diet coke out of the fountain, Which
is why when I'm in an airport, there's an opportunity
because there, Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
You're a connoisseur.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Now I could have just been this diet coke influencer here.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Like it's only mountain you don't you won't have it
any other way?
Speaker 4 (10:02):
No, I mean I will drink it from a can,
but I really prefer I think the fountain is good.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
There's something about the plastic twenty ounce bottles that for
some reason, like by the uh, make sure the coke
is marinated five days in the refrigerator logic that like
plastic bottles make it taste warm to me, you make
it taste bad to me for some reason. I don't
know if it's because it takes me too long to
(10:27):
drink it, like it takes me a whole thirty seconds
to drink it instead of like fifteen, so it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Warms up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
But there's something that even though I'm sure the same
chemical concoction is being poured into the plastic bottle that's
being poured into the can specifically, the mini can, really
hits hard for me. I do. I do love a
fountain as well, but fountain obviously always variable.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
There you go, There you go. That was a good question.
I love it. I'm going to ask the scene that
what about your search history telling that's great?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, sometimes it could be a little tricky, I'm sure
an employee, because that's invasive.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
What your search history is.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Yeah, yeah, if.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
You don't know, that's a mistake with coworkers, fine. Uh.
And then instead of just interacting with them in any way,
you just have a notebook and go uh huh and
make little like notations.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Check what are you writing down there? Nothing? Nothing, No,
it's just real. That is real interesting. What is something
that you and you are?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
As you mentioned in an airport, So if people are
hearing in the background some voices, those are airport announcements.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Airports.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Get get into the atmosphere. This is an atmospheric show.
There we go what is sky something you think is underrated?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
You know, I think.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Seeing a movie in a movie theater is underrated. I've
been seeing I've been trying to now that now that
you can see movies so easily at home or streaming,
my family and I have been going to the theater.
We went this weekend. I saw Wild Robot. I have
an eight year old, so I saw Wild Robot. I
saw Transformers last weekend. That was good too, But I
think Transformers last weekend, I think the whole like going
(12:11):
into the theater, getting the popcorn. I think it's I
think it's underrated right now.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, well it's it's so easy to watch things on streaming,
and I always find myself fighting the urge, Like I
know I could watch it at home, but also I
love me. I like a fountain Cherry Coke out the Founder.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
And they have those those machines now you can pick
it freestyles.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, I'm always tempted to try a different one, but
I'm like, no, I don't want to be disappointed. I
don't want to be just I'm just going to stick
to Cherry. But no, Yeah, I love going to the
theater now and I'm.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Cherry coke out a freestyle. That's your move, Cherry coke
out of a freestyle machine, you know, so where it
has like the red syrup shooting in and it's yeah,
I do that with a coke zero.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
That's true. And I'm such a purist. I show up
and go to the freestyle and still just get the
plane dicto.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
And that in and of itself is its own pleasure.
You have all the choices in the world at your
fingertips and you're still showing you know, the one person
who is still just going the classic DC.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I also have an eight year old and he is
obsessed with robots right now, and so we saw Transformers
one last weekend and I was saying on yesterday's episode,
I made the mistake of letting him talk me into
letting him watch the like Shia Labuff Transformers original, and
(13:36):
he watched that and it's now his favorite movie of
all time, and I think it has like profoundly changed
his personality going forward.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
He liked it so much. So just I would.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Recommend don't don't do that, which I probably weren't going to.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
The Wild Robot just back on the Wild Wild Robot
is good, So that would be a good man.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I know, I'm excited that was Jack. Think you about
saying that take the robot, take the robot pendulum in
then other direction and be like, what about a kind robot?
It's just getting along with nature?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, what if robots weren't contracted with the Pentagon too?
Fight Forever Wars? Yeah, the Chevy.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Product placement is so well.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Anyways, what is something Sky that you think is overrated?
Speaker 4 (14:24):
I think rest is overrated.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Rest.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Yeah, I like resting, but I think that there's a
lot of stuff to do in the world and things
to see and work to do, which we're going to
talk about, and so I think rest is a bit overrated.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
How do you look at it, like in the sense
that you because you think of everything that's happening, like
I don't have time to rest, or that while it
is good, maybe too much of the rest is a
is a bad thing. How do you or how are
you looking at rest?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think more like it's good and we should all
rest and but yeah we need that, but that I
think that what really gets me energized is being able
to go out and see the world or do your things.
So that leads to a lot of compromises on vacation
where we'll do some resting but also some exploring and
those kinds of things. And then I think, in this moment,
(15:14):
which we're going to chat about in like kind of
where the country is, we've all got to rest and
take care of ourselves. But there's also work to do
on this podcast or in Congress or wherever you know,
or at the movie theater. But there's a lot of
work to do.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
As long as I get my ten to thirteen hours
of sleep a night, I feel like I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Ready ready to put it out, put in a solid
two hours back to all right, Sky, great work on
the overrated, underrated.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and
get into Project twenty twenty five. We'll be right back,
and we're back.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
We're back. Oh yeah, blue cool, all.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Right, So let's get into it. Democrats are saying Project
twenty twenty five is basically the entire blueprint for the
next presidential administration if Trump wins. So I have a
loose theory that I'm working on here because you see
all of the wild shit that Trump is willing to
say about everything, just like straight up immigrants are going
(16:28):
to come into your kitchen and cut your throat and like,
you know, all all the lies, all the violence, and
and yet he runs away from Project twenty twenty five.
I'm curious to hear your take. Is there stuff in
there that he's really afraid of being associated with or
has he just not read it and he's scared of
(16:50):
like that there's something in there that's how many pages
is it? I feel like I feel like that at
least has part of has to do with partially why
he's just like backing away from it. But yeah, I'm curious.
How much of the influence do you think the Heritage
Foundation has when it comes to a next Trump presidency.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Well, the Heritage Foundation itself says that about two thirds
of the policies that it proposes the prior administration implemented
and administrations before that implemented. That's on its website. So
I think we got to take them at their word
that they're quite effective at shaping policy. And that's concerning
for the vast majority of people in the country, Which
is why I think the former president is seeking to
(17:33):
distance himself, is that there's just no mandate at all
for these policies. Polling is out, there's new pulling out
from last week. I mean, we didn't really need the polling, thetalysis,
but it's just like like four percent. I think it's
like just you know, very very low of people that
would approve of the overall policy agenda, which is why
I think you see him trying to distance himself from
(17:54):
those because there's just no mandate for.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
It, right right. And I'm like, I think people who
listen to the show, we always hear we understand what
Project twenty twenty five is and just sort of like
how this could all, you know, pretty much curtail all
of our rights in most cases, But like I'm just
for in a broader context, can you just sort of
talk about like what the Heritage Foundation is, Like, I
(18:18):
understand they're a think tank. They've had they've been making
sort of playbooks for conservative administrations, I think since the eighties,
But I think you have again, like how Jack was
saying in the beginning, there's the emphasis like this could
be everything that the Trump administration does. Then you have people,
I'm sure because of the optics are so terrible, they're like,
I mean I don't really know him or that or
what this is about. But just to give an idea,
(18:39):
like again, I know because in their fundraising they say,
like the Trump administration took sixty four percent of our
policy exactly exactly. Yeah, So how why is it the
Heritage Foundation specifically that's really the one pushing all this forward?
Speaker 4 (18:52):
So I think this is a great and interesting question.
I mean, the Heritage Foundation is a known sort of
institution on the right that's very well funded. But what's
interesting about this project twenty twenty five, this mandate for
leadership that they've put out is over one hundred other
organizations are banning together with the Heritage Foundation in this effort.
And some of those if you go look at the list,
(19:14):
I think it's on their website, it's and we have
some references at Democracy Forward you can go look at
some of those institutions are ones that were active and
overturning Roe versus Wade. They're institutions that oppose public education,
their institutions that have opposed voting access. And so it's
not just Heritage, but that overall ecosystem that is commonly funded,
(19:34):
very highly coordinated, as you can tell. And I think
that's one thing we want to make sure people understand.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Right yeah, because it feels like it's sort of like
a wish list, whether you're like one of these billionaires
is like, I hate regulation. Can you do something about
that too? Then the anti abortion movement, who also has
like there's a like I get now, why is it
sort of like this avengers of backwards groups because like
everyone they're like, oh, and our little thing also gets
represented in those two.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
You know, there was a question in the prior administration
about whether true conservatives, you know, people the country's interesting
because all, you know, folks see things all differently. Some
people are pepsi drinker, some are coke drinker, some are liberal,
some are conservatives. And there was a real question in
the last administration about what traditional conservatives would do, would
they would Trump be one bridge too far with this
(20:21):
anti democratic at the point that we can't you know,
there's now opposition over the right to vote again, there's
opposition over basic rights. Are we moving forward? Are we
moving backwards? And really the prior administration and now this
Project twenty twenty five answers that that there's a whole
lot of these groups that have found common cause with
each other that have been pushed further and further to
(20:42):
the right in a way that doesn't represent the vast
majority of people. So why you see people like Vice
President Cheney rebuffing so much of this anti democratic activity.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Now, there was like an architect of Project twenty twenty
five who is captured. I think he works at the
Heritage Foundation or worked at the Heritage Foundation and was
like captured on hidden camera basically being like, yeah, of
course he's going to pretend he's not on board, but guys,
he's like with us all the way, we've got this.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Didn't that happen like this summer that was that.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Was released, And we've seen a number of videos that
have been released former Trump administration officials, of course, many
of whom authored parts of the document. And so yeah,
I mean I think that there's no way, you know,
you can try to run, but there's no way for
this movement to hide from the associations with Project twenty
twenty five. You guys know this about my background. But
Democracy Forward, we had to take the prior administration to
(21:36):
court and we sued on a lot of the same
policies that appear again in this document. So there's just
really no way to distance it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I think, Yeah, and it feels like just because all
of the attention right now, they've feels like this summer
has been a lot of like like a lot of
pr spin, you know, from because Paul Dan's right was
the person who was like the director of Project twenty
twenty five and when he was I don't know, fired,
he says, wrongly terminated, like the Heritage Foundation says like
(22:03):
he was his behavior was oh, very unconservative, like do
not look at Donald Trump. But for us it was
a ridge too far, well like with that kind of
a thing, because I think that was another move where
people like, oh my gosh, they that was like a
headline like the director of Project twenty twenty five has
been fired, as if to sort of make people be like, oh,
maybe things are losing momentum, but what what's what's it
(22:25):
been like for the Heritage Foundation just generally how they're
maneuvering because it seems like, oh, everybody knows about this
and if you read it, it's so bad. What do
we do to try and make this seem like normal
or acceptable.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Well, we've seen that, I mean we saw a number
of these witnesses just I guess it was last week,
two weeks ago when I was on Capitol Hill that
had their talking points about, oh, this is nothing, nothing
to see here, truly nothing to see here. There made
nine hundred pages, but nothing to see. And the American
people I think are smarter than that, and that's why
you see them. So, you know, rebuking this agenda. But
(22:58):
I think the other thing that we're trying to make
sure people understand, and you guys have talked about it
on the show in different ways, but Project twenty twenty
five is already here. It's not something that could happen.
It's we're already seeing in states like Florida and Texas
and Arkansas and Mississippi and places where we have to
go to court because there are attempts to ban books
or to control ideas, to ban reproductive health care. So
(23:22):
we're seeing a lot of these policies and ideas already
afoot in states with very far right leadership, already afoot
by these organizations that are going into court and trying
to sue on fringe legal theories to restrict the right
to vote, or to restrict the right to reproductive healthcare,
any number of things. And so we want to make
sure that people understand that that there's a lot that
(23:42):
we can be doing in our own communities now to
oppose these really harmful and anti democracy, anti freedom ideas.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Right, and so some of these things that seem like
fringe and like, you know, there're stories that are happening
in other states if we don't live in Florida, and
then you hear from people who are like, I'm in Florida,
it's as bad as it seems. The idea is that
it would just be national, like it like all of
those things would now be attempted on a national scale.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
So there are, yeah, there's pages throughout Projects twenty twenty
five that says that they want to adopt, you know,
at the federal level, certain ideas around education or policies
that we've seen in states like Florida and Texas where
there has just been a lot of restrictions on the
freedom to read, the freedom to ideas, the ability for
schools to serve people in courts. We see, you know,
(24:33):
there's this you all I think have talked about this
with the Commstock Act, which is this Victorian era law
that there has been a movement to resurrect, even though
it's been broadly abrogated. That there's been a movement to
resurrect to try to enforce criminal penalties on the transportation
of obscene materials in the United States, which which it
defines to include materials that might be utilized in the
(24:56):
provision of pregnancy termination and abortion. And that's actually something
that these the same far right groups that are behind
Project twenty twenty five are already trying to push in
the court. It's something we heard a little bit of
a discussion of this last Supreme Court term from Justices
Alito and Thomas and the Alliance for Defending Freedom, which
is one of the groups behind the plan. And so
I think that's that's the other piece of this is
(25:16):
we need to be able to look at this extremism
and not blink and understand it's here and use the
tools that we have to oppose it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Right, So I even like with you know, I know,
the huge sort of tenets within Project twenty twenty five
as it relates to abortion are essentially ban mifipristone enforced
the Comstock Act, and then also like collect data from
states about abortions performed, including like the state of residence
for the mother and things like that to really just
(25:45):
clamp down in every way. I've also heard people say
like that for them, it's like, if we can just
get the Comstock Acting force, that's kind of good enough,
because I guess the logic extends to the fact that
they would essentially say, like any even supplies being sent
to an abortion clinic would be deemed unlawful, and therefore
you have like this de facto shut down of clinics.
(26:06):
Is there is there like debate within the anti abortion
movement of like maybe we just can we just really
press hard on the Comstock Act versus others.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
They want anything that will chill reproductive health care, whether
it's lawful or not, whether it's fringe or not, and
Comstock is certainly one of them. I would be remiss
if I didn't say that these are the same people
that for years insisted they wanted to return things to
the state, and now they're pursuing national strategies to try
to prevent, you know, reproductive health care, even in even
(26:33):
in states that that are protecting in it have permitted it.
And so I think that that, you know, I think
we need to also be able to look at that
hypocrisy and understand what we're up against.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Right all right, let's uh, let's take a quick break,
and I want to come back and talk about whether
and how this could even fuck with their ability to
deal with the weather. Yeah, we'll be right back to it.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
And we are back. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And so Project twenty twenty five makes it possible for
the administration to or a administration to dismantle NOAH and
the National Weather Service. And so, I mean, just up top,
the National Weather Service is the thing that gives us,
(27:27):
like most of our weather information.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Absolutely, yeah, I mean it is. And I mean, you know,
you said what's overrated. I mean I didn't say the
weather app because I'm you know, sitting here in an airport.
You guys were all trying to their storms everywhere, trying
to figure out So even when we utilize weather information
from whatever our favorite services are, lots of that is
built off of the publicly available Weather Service that enables
(27:49):
all of us to access information not just about what
the temperatures are going to be or how much it rained,
but about the progression of storms or other things that
we need to know. And of course would be remiss
if we didn't acknowledge that we're talking amidst so many
people in our country that are losing things, and there's
been lots of flooding throughout as a result of these storms.
But yet Project twenty twenty five would dismantle that National
(28:13):
Weather Service because it views our Weather Service and the
data that is collected around weather patterns as a threat
to their sort of ideological view that climate change is
not real and and data and evidence are a problem
if you if you want to, if you want to
sort of pedal and misinformation, And so they want to
(28:35):
dismantle the Weather Service.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, right, I'm seeing that this.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I think there was. So first of all, the head
of the federal or not federal, the Heritage Foundation recently
had an op ed in the USA Today, and then
the USA Today also like recently fact checked this fact.
And they're like, it just gives them the ability to
dismantle the NAA and the National Weather Service. It doesn't
have like it's not doing for it.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
It's like it says it should be broken up. How
else to take.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, specifically says that the NOAA is one of the
main drivers of the climate change alarm industry. Correct, So yeah,
and why do you think they're calling for it? If
and giving themselves the ability to do it if they're
you know, not going to do it. We weird things
(29:26):
happening at the USA today. Apparently with regards to Project
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It feels like sort of like one one part is
like obviously the curtailing of rights is a huge part,
and then the other was like, erase the receipts that
allow for people to call for progress, because if you
have no data about the environment, then that's one less
tool people have to like rhetorically vest us in saying
we need to take care of the planet.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
And that's one thing we saw. So in the prior
administration there was an effort to stop collecting data or
to undermine data. So this isn't you know, this isn't
just what's in Project twenty twenty five. This is what happened.
Lawyers at Democracy Forward we had to go to court
to stop the Trump administration when they wanted to stop
collecting wage data around demographics. They just didn't want to
(30:10):
collect it. You don't have a wage problem, a wage
gap problem, or any inequity in pay if you don't
collect the data. And we were able to win that suit.
But that's the type of trend we see, including with
the National Weather Service and what they're saying. I will say,
and I think you all have seen this, but on
our website at Democracyforward dot org, we have a people's
(30:33):
guide to Democracy Forward. We have a people's Guide to
Project twenty twenty five, and it actually has all of
these things and has the page numbers in Project twenty
twenty five. So when you mentioned the fact checking, we've
tried to do that for the American people so that
you don't have to go through all nine hundred pages,
but you can see these things. And the Weather Service
is one of the areas that we flagged, you know,
(30:54):
right there with the page numbers that you're reading off of.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
So right, so if you need to get into a
spirited Paul debate, you can be like no, and here
look right here where it says that. Because there are
plenty of people who are so dismissive too, because depending
on where you hear news, people are gonna be like,
it's just a friend, it's full of fringe stuff that
nobody's listening to. But again, anyone, like we were saying
at the top of the segment, is like no, about
(31:17):
nearly two thirds of the policy you know, ideas are
coming from the Heritage Foundation. So to act like it isn't,
I think is a huge.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, I really worry about, like because the ability
to dismantle all of the important things that the federal
government does for us just feels like it's very low
hanging fruit in the United States. Like I just feel
like those stories don't get told that, like, oh, the
(31:47):
this is your tax dollars at work, Like unless someone's
saying sarcastically, they are your tax dollars at work, folks,
Like people don't actually ever report on what the National
Weather Serve, Like the important work that is being done
by these things is just treated as like a given
or it's like there's a there's a great anecdote and uh,
(32:08):
I think it's a Michael Lewis book where somebody is like,
why would we continue funding the National Weather Service when
we have weather dot Com, like we we have a
privatized version, And he's like, yeah, so they get all
their data from the.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
National Weather Service exactly, that's uh.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
But nobody like the way I feel like that this
like Wall Street mindset has invaded everybody in the United
States and they just don't want it to be true
that like all this federal government investment has given us
so many of the good things that we have today,
and so it just it feels like this is going
(32:46):
to be even though it would be. You know, we
saw what happened, like what Trump has done with weather
information that isn't convenient for him. We saw him like
change a hurricane map with a sharpie, like in front
of people, like on.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
A national stage.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Like imagine what he'd do behind closed doors to actual
weather reporting at a time when global climate change makes
the case for scientists that we should be very afraid.
And like, you know, he obviously is on the side
where like you know, with fossil fuel companies and the
GOP that are claiming it's not you know, he's gonna
(33:26):
he's going to use that power.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I feel like, in really damaging ways and probably be
like and every hurricane will be called Obama or Clinton
after this. There's only two names, and they're all bad
and they're always the reason for your demise. But yeah,
that's I think I'm also curious too, like there's aside
from again the total just taking back of rights for
nearly every single person in the United States, what are
(33:52):
some of like the other policy goals that are being
underreported on because I think rightly, the like the huge
stuff that affects the largest number of people gets a lot.
But I feel like there's a lot of other things
that are really really could like a small policy shift
that can actually resonate in a huge way that we're
not really talking about absolutely.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I mean, one of them is overtime pay and the
eligibility standard for overtime. There's a call in the document
to change to revise that standard, which would disqualify millions
of Americans for overtime pay. So if they revise a
standard so that if you make a certain amount of
money and you qualify, now they may say, well that's
(34:30):
too much money, so you don't qualify for overtime pay.
And at a time where it's very hard for people
to make ends meet, this is a really troubling and
I think the estimates are about four point three million
people could lose eligibility to overtime. And you know that's extreme,
Like who doesn't believe that you should be paid for
the extra hours that you're working these jobs? But that's
(34:50):
that's one of the ones that I would point out.
The civil service has gotten a lot of there's been
there's been some press I think around schedule aff or
the attempts to purge the civil service, but I think
there's been less conversation about what that really means. It's
not just actually about people that work for the federal
government losing their job or being at risk of losing
their jobs. Certainly that would happen, but think about all
(35:13):
the things federal government employees do that we really take
for granted. I mean, think about an agency like the
FDA that's keeping our drug and food supply. Sing do
you want someone that's not an expert, like you know,
opining on sort of the particulate matter in a you know,
in a certain substance and whether that's safe or not.
I mean, that's really scary for all of us, and
(35:35):
especially for those of us that are raising kids and
active in our communities. And so I think those are
some of the things that I think people are starting
to see it. It's unsettling people don't like Project twenty
twenty five, but there's real ways this could like impact
one's day to day life in these real profound ways.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Because I just look at even like recently, there's like
that bores head facility had a listeria out and a
lot of that they're tying back to the things that
were rolled back under Trump to be like, well, it's
made a little too much oversight in this food processing
facility and now you have like listeria outbreaks because it
maybe wasn't deemed important enough or that we can trust
(36:15):
a company be like, yeah, man, just you're fine as
long as you guys are holding up to standards, will
believe you, and then cut to an outbreak of listeria
that's actually had terrible, terrible consequences for people.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Yeah. I mean another thing is like, so are prescription
drugs right? And the prescription drugs for many people are
not as affordable as they should be or as accessible
as they should be. And so Congress actually, under the
Biden the Harris administration, when it passed the Inflation Reduction Act,
there's a provision in there that allows Medicare to negotiate
drug prices, which would overall lead to greater affordability. We
(36:48):
right now at Democracy Forward, represent hundreds of thousands of
doctors through medical associations like the American Medical Association and
others who are weighing in in court saying like this
is really important for public health. Twenty twenty five calls
for the repeal of that. And so where we've seen
some progress and seen some things that can make things
more affordable, make it easier for people to make ends
meet to take care of their family, product twenty twenty
(37:10):
five would would call that back head Start. And lots
of people in this country have either been a beneficiary
of head Start or families that are relying on Headstart
for early childhood development for young people. They want to
eliminate Headstart. I mean, this is basic stuff and a
lot of these programs are programs that have been supported
for many years by both Democrats and Republicans. They're not
(37:33):
particularly controversial programs, but yet it calls for the elimination
of them.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Also, the dismantling of the FBI, I believe is in
there and not for the good reasons, but rather because
they're mean to Donald Trump. This was just eliminating for
me because I was like, oh shit, are we going
to have to spend the next four years rooting for
the FBI again? Like that should I feel like that
should be Kamala Harris's slogan, just like do you want
(38:02):
to spend another four years on the same side as
guys like James Komi in the FBI. No, you don't
like vote for me, you don't want to cheer for
the FBI again, guys, Come on.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
I think the other thing, like you talk about in
the work you do, Skuy, is like the idea or
rather the fact that a lot of these terrible policies
it's here already. We don't need Project twenty twenty five
to know that these threats are actually clear and present
and in effect. And like again, even if Trump is defeated,
I think my worrying, like other people's is obviously the
(38:36):
ethos of this document lives on until you know, everything
is found to be illegal by a Supreme Court or
something like that. But like in Indiana, you're referencing like
states already having policies in place. Like in Indiana, I think
the Attorney General launched a site where basically parents can
docs and snitch on teachers that share quote objectionable curricula,
policies or programs, and they relate a lot of that
(38:59):
do like being justices of our country read like systemic
racism and other things like that that plague our society.
But what, like I guess, the long term to fight
all of this these mini Project twenty twenty fives, is
it that like again, the first step is probably to
defeat Project twenty twenty twenty five at a federal level.
(39:20):
But then now at the state level, what does that
fight look like for like legally and also just for
people to be aware and like, what is that sort
of look like to you?
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Lots of work to do. So yes, first of all,
it could get worse, So let's not endorse Project twenty
twenty five at the federal level, which I think is
people are understanding. But at the state level, one thing
is now we know this is a deeply unpopular agenda,
and so it's important that we take a close look
at what's being proposed in the states, and if it
(39:51):
appears in this Project twenty twenty five playbook, we need
to be saying that so that people understand what's at
stake in these policies. But the state of sessions will
start in the new year, and there will be a
lot of work to educate policymakers about what people's needs are,
and we and others will work on that with communities
in the states. And then when states pass unlawful and
(40:14):
harmful laws, it's time to go to court. And you know,
at Democracy Forward, we had to sue Texas because they're
blacklisting companies for their sustainable investments, I mean actually putting
businesses on a blacklist, and a state that's purporting my
home state, but a state that's purporting to be pro business,
I mean in Arkansas, We've had to sue to block
criminal penalties on librarians that Sarah Huckaby Sanders signed into law.
(40:38):
And so there's a lot of these extreme ideas already
taking foot, already becoming law, and there are things that
people can do. And so that's a great you know
plug for following our work at democracyfoard dot org. And
we can connect your listeners with a lot of other
organizations too that are going to be doing that work.
But we can't take our foot off the gas, even
if we're able to defeat this at the federal level,
because the threats are here and they're real, right.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, And I think it's easy to forget too where
you're like that thing's too wild to pass, and like
and it doesn't happen. You don't realize, Oh, it's because
there were a lot of lawsuits that prevented that. So
I think sometimes it's easy to take for granted. It's
like the actual work that's done to be like no, no, no,
See they say something wild and out of pocket, and
then you have to go in and sue to prevent that.
(41:21):
Otherwise the door just opens. And then which and what.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
That means is that people have to decide that they're
going to use their position that they're in to push back.
So in Texas, we're representing an association of businesses that's
having to use their position. We represent the generic manufacturer
of mythi pristone that has sued in West Virginia to
block an abortion van that makes it impossible to access
(41:45):
them and utilize their medication in the state. And these are,
you know, everyday decisions. And then we represent people like
parents and teachers that make a decision. But these are
everyday folks or small businesses that are deciding to use
their position in this time. So, you know, rest can
be overrated a little bit, even though it's good and
we've all got to get to work.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, just three years into the Trump administration and he's
able to put these plans into effect like that it
really does feel like it would be a complete like
post apocalyptic like what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Would you imagine?
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Well, I think that we see a vision of that
in Project twenty twenty five, but in other things as well,
And you can look around the globe too to see
that the types of democratic backsliding in twenty twenty one.
After January sixth, then I think January sixth is a
good place to look to see what things could look like.
But in January sixth, the United States has added to
(42:49):
a list of global backsliding democracies. And I mean we
are now on a list of democracies in the world
that are not moving forward but have been put moving
backwards because of election and violence and rises and political violence,
and so so I think that we can look at
some of the things that have happened in this country
and see that and what that could look like on
(43:10):
a greater and broader scale. They've been clear that they
want to engage in a retribution agenda. Last week there
was a news story that suggested that they would want
to jail people who criticize the Supreme Court, which is
a court whose majority has reversed the rights for over
half the population in this country, you know, on their watch.
(43:30):
And so I think that there's really no telling where
this goes. But the main thing that we know is
that one of the top tools that sort of more
authoritarian governments and leaders and far right leaders have is
to try to try to convince people that there's nothing
that they can do, that there's no reason to fight back,
there's no reason to sort of push back, that they
(43:51):
have it all in the bag, and this is where
we're going and there's nothing that you can do and
that you're powerless. And what the American story tells us,
and what our work every day tells us is that
people do have the power in this country. And so
that's what, you know, that's what we will be focused
on in all scenarios is making sure that people can
use all the tools our democracy provides to push back
and to defend their freedoms.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
So what what are some of those tools that you
would say like that just to people who aren't you know,
legal experts, or what is ship posting?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I mean obviously ship posting is the main one, but
are there any others?
Speaker 4 (44:26):
Or podcasting? So look, I think using you know, we
say this all the time that I mean certainly registering
and voting, but using your voice is important, and it's
not just important on social media or on podcast or
at big meetings. It is important that we're having these
conversations in our communities, that we're talking to people about
what it feels like to be someone who has either
(44:49):
experienced or rights violation or has a you know, has
a kid that's affected by one of these policies, or
you know how to love one or family member that
is or are themselves right, and that we're having these conversations.
So using the voice and making sure that people are
connected and not able to distance themselves and their experiences
from these broader ideas I think is really important. Obviously,
(45:12):
people can use the third branch of government, which they
don't utilize as much as they should, which is our
court system. And that's what we do at Democracy Forward
is we want to make sure people we represent all
of our clients free of charge. We want to make
sure that people have access to the courts and can
challenge harmful and unlawful activities in their local communities and
their state communities are at the federal level, and then
we see that people you know, use their voice in
(45:36):
federal government and state government as well. But there's a
lot that we can all do in this time to
stand up for our values and to stand up for
our country.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Great, when you're talking about democracies backsliding, what are some
examples that people could like look to to read about
in other countries? Like, what are some other countries that
are experiencing the same sort of democratic backsliding, either now
or throughout history.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
Yeah, so there's a there's a great report. So if
you google the twenty twenty one Democratic BACKSID, it was
an International Institute of Democracy in Electoral Assistance idea International
Institute of Democracy and Electoral Assistance is what places the
US on the list, and you can read about other
countries that are also on that list. And then the
Carnegie Institute has done some really good research and publication
(46:24):
about the types of trends in the United States. What
is happening is that there's this active, what we call
a countermajoritarian movement, right, so, a movement that doesn't represent
the vast majority of people in this country, that nevertheless
is wielding large amounts of political power, whether that is
through misinformation, whether it's through gerrymandering and structural issues that
(46:44):
are keeping people from being represented. Project twenty twenty five,
by the way, this is what I told Congress is
an example of that. You have a policy that is
completely unpopular and harmful to vast majority of the people,
but yet it is taking this national and it's because
of this ecosystem of far right actors. So you can
read more about that, and I'm happy to come back
(47:06):
on and chat about it. But that is I think
that we have to view Project twenty twenty five in
this broader context, which is the type of this type
of testimony I gave a few weeks ago, and also
just remembering January sixth, I mean, we had a disruption
in the peaceful transition of presidential power for the first
time in our countries of modern history, and so those
(47:27):
are really concerning.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Well, thank you so much Scott for coming on the show.
Thank you for having We really appreciate you taking the
time out of your busy schedule. Where can people find you,
follow you, find out more about your work.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Yeah, go to Democracyford dot org. Definitely get the people's
guide to Project twenty twenty five, but learn more about
our work. You can follow us on all of our
social media channels. We even have TikTok and have some
interesting videos people love that have been going viral, especially
around Product twenty twenty five. So Democracy Forward, Democracyford dot
org and I'm sky Perriman. You can find me on
(47:59):
Twitter and It's and all this channels as well.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Right, and is there a work of media that you've
been enjoying?
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Last question?
Speaker 4 (48:07):
A work of media? Not this, I mean in addition
to this, Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Thank you, I mean it could be this, Yeah, it's
could be this good and wild.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
Robot, Wild Robot was good. You know, I really I
enjoy I have been enjoying sort of follow up thing.
I think that I do think that a lot of
videos that are being made and posted on like sort
of Instagram reels that are taking perspectives from various you know,
local media. I read a lot of local papers. I
read a lot of local papers. Had a mentor one
(48:37):
time that told me, whenever you go to a tad
travel a lot for work, you know, pick up the
local paper and read it. I love reading the editorial
pages of local papers and seeing what's up in communities,
including the small town that I'm from, which I still
take that paper. So I love doing that, but recently
we've been seeing lots of great influencers and creators be
able to put a lot of that perspective, you know,
(48:59):
put a lot of that protect about on reels and
video and that's that's really fun and I think it's
it's a good way to engage cross generationally. We want
to watch a lot of those at our house with
young people and it's great, awesome, great.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
All right, well, thank you again for joining us. And Miles,
where can people find you as their working media you've
been enjoying?
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yes, find me Twitter and Instagram at Miles of Gray.
Speaker 5 (49:20):
If you like basketball podcast, Jack and I always have
a basketball podcast called Miles and Jacko Mad Boosties. If
you like Tindy Day Fiance, I also talk about that
on four twenty Day Fiance. Work of Media.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
I like, so, as somebody who famously has not seen
all the Marvel films, we wanted to watch that new
Catherine Han like Agatha all the Time show. But then
I was like, I think I need to see WandaVision
before I understand this. And then they're like they're like,
to understand WandaVision, you need to know all these other things.
So I decide. I just look, I'm jumping into WandaVision,
and so far I really like it, even though I'm
(49:52):
probably missing a lot of the references, but so far
enjoying it. So I'm just gonna say that. So yeah,
I'm I'm I'm with I'm rocking with Wanda right now
if you read.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
The King Jam's Bible and the Iliad, because I feel
like you're gonna need to understand both of those to
get one division, and then those will.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Explain a couple of the other.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Lady, yeah, right, right right, and finally get up to WandaVision.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
No, not yet, not yet.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore Obrian
piece of media. I've been enjoyed. So I read the
book three Body Problem, and then the second in the trilogy,
The Dark Forest. I have not finished the third one,
but I just watched the HBO or sorry no Netflix
adaptation by benioffen Wis and it's fine.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
But I did enjoy it because it.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Has a scene involving nano fibers that I had like
in the book blew my mind. I was like, this
is one of the coolest cinematic scenes that I could imagine,
can't wait to see what they do with that, and
they did it right. I feel like it was pretty
wild scene. Anyways, you can find us on Twitter at
(51:04):
daily Zeikeeist. We're at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We
have a Facebook fanpage and a website dailyzeikeist dot com
where we post our episodes and our footnotes. So we'll
link off to the information that we talked about in
today's episode, as well as a song that we think
you might enjoy. Miles, what's the song you think people
might enjoy?
Speaker 2 (51:21):
This is a track from the New Jersey based artist
fifty four Ultra and it's called Heaven Knows and it's
again another one of these like modern bands that's doing
something that I was like, is this like a last
like late sixties motown B side I've never heard? But no,
it's a song from like this the last two years
and the guy's whole aesthetic is really dope and if
you like that kind of music, you're gonna love this one.
(51:42):
So this is Heaven Knows by the artist fifty four Ultra.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Oh right, we will link off to that in the
footnote for Daily Zeigeist is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcaster, wherever Fine podcast will give it away for free.
That is going to do it for us this morning.
We are back this afternoon to tell you what is
trending and we will talk to you all that.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Bye bye
The Daily Zeitgeist News
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Jack O'Brien
Miles Gray
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