Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hello, and welcome to We Knows Parenting. I'm Peter McNerney
and live from Portland, Oregon. My wife Beth. No will
say hi, Beth, Hello, Oh my gosh. Our lives are busy,
and you know what. We tried to record before Beth left,
but a lot happened and it made it impossible. Um.
(00:36):
Here we are using technology to connect across the nation.
I haven't seen you in four or five days. How
are you doing. I'm good. I have I don't know,
possible throat infection or something. But you know, other than that,
I'm away from my children enjoying life. So that's good boy.
If you're a regular listener to this podcast, you'll you'll
(00:56):
know that Beth hates her children. In her favorite the
favorite thing is to be away from them. But I
will say if I'm sick, if I'm sick, I want
to be away from my kids too. I think any
parents listening to this podcast can appreciate the value of
being away from their children. And it's not. Anyone who
(01:18):
says otherwise is lying and I don't believe the word
they're saying. Well, I will say, so, oh my gosh,
so much has happened. Um, let's go all the way
back to the begetting right after our last recording session,
we literally jumped in the car and we drove to vacation,
and uh, we had a great long labor day weekend
(01:39):
with some friends at an airbnb, a house with a pool,
and we had the best possible vacation with children. Our
kids were good. They're great. Yeah, they were free as
a house with like very few things that like could
easily murder children, not like cases. Else, there's a pool.
(02:03):
The pool was everything. We lived in that pool for
four days. Good swimmer. So then our kids got this
fever one of the days we're there, which ended up
being surprisingly easy. They were just really sluggish, and it
was like, oh, this is actually a good sickness. They're
(02:23):
just like cuddling. It's not bad. Yeah, they had a
fever for the morning and then had a long nap
and didn't complain, didn't feel bad, just watched TV and
cuddled and it was like and then they were fine.
It seemed like a total recovery. And then and then
two days later we're home from vacation. We you go
(02:45):
to pick the kids up from daycare. They have spots
on their hands and their mouths and their mouths and
their feet and then their but they have known in
the biz as hand foot and mouth and should be
but as well disease, or sometimes referred to as Coxsackie.
(03:10):
Both names are ridiculous. We've talked about Coxsackie on this
podcast before, probably the first few episodes. But they legitimately
got it. Now, hand foot and mouth disease in our experience,
not a big deal. Like they We got a really
really mild case of it, which I don't know. I
(03:30):
don't think it's necessarily typical, but people I had heard
horror stories, so I was very scared of this coming.
And then our kids weren't really itchy. They didn't seem
to have sore throats, they didn't um, they seemed okay,
just a little spotty. By the time the spots show up,
like everything was gone. I I definitely got the same thing,
(03:53):
but as an adult equally, it just meant just like
a real crummy feeling afternoon and more learning of just
feeling tired, but like at all. Well, that's because you
left the state and you left me alone with my children.
But I don't think you've gotten it that you wouldn't
(04:14):
have gotten it that much later than them. Don't question me.
I felt terrible, and I didn't complaint about it. I
think you always think you have what our kids have.
No matter what, you just you suddenly feel a tickle
and you want in on the action. It wasn't a tickle.
It was that I don't even know if I'm sick,
but I read up on it. I'm pretty sure I
had it too. It was just very mild we I
(04:37):
don't know if you's so. Everyone at daycare got it UM,
and the woman who runs daycare I think had a
mental breakground down trying to decontaminate daycare. This is a
super common thing, like handfoot and mouth disease is super
infectious and uh, and so she was understandably freaked out
(05:00):
about it, and she like send everyone home and had
a full day of disinfecting the whole place. Yeah, I'm
actually I'm a little surprised how freaked out she was
because it's UM. I understand she was scared that the
babies would get it, but it had already kind of
run its course. I think in infecting all these kids,
(05:20):
and there wasn't a lot left to do, and I
would imagine most daycares have seen this a bunch of times.
I don't know, Well, we're taking our one example of
experiencing this and assuming that that's how it always goes wherever. Well, yeah,
I think people do get it way worse and it's
(05:41):
really bad. So anyway, the fun thing about this is
that Brin's spots coincided with the day before what was
supposed to be the first day of preschool, and we
got the doctor to say that he could go to school. Um,
this is after he stayed home one day to check
(06:02):
this out and daycare did not agree. Well, So I
was texting with daycare and I was like, I have
a doctor's note, but we've had a history of bringing
our kids to daycare and them sending them back because
they've thrown up or whatever. So I I texted. I
(06:22):
was like, so we have a doctor's note, they're gonna
I'm gonna send brand to pre k uh. Are you
cool with us bringing him to daycare? It's fine if not.
And this woman sent me like twelve texts. It's like,
I mean, like I'd rather not have the babies, like
really apologetic, and I could clearly tell she was very
stressed about the whole thing. So you went out of
(06:43):
town and I stayed home with Brian for three days.
But before you went second day, we took him and
this is the bigger story. Bryan started pre kindergarten. Beth,
this is a big day. This was an emotional day.
Tell us. Tell us about it from your point of view. Um,
(07:05):
I think it was. I was just nervous about the
mechanics of how we were going to get him in
the room and leave, and it was, yeah, I don't know.
He was pretty good. He didn't he didn't want to go.
He kept saying he wasn't going to go. He's like,
I don't go to preschool. I just go to regular school.
(07:27):
And then he he ended up being pretty brave when
we got him there, and as we were leaving, he
was like puffing his lower lip out in the saddest way,
but not really crying. Um, so I felt pretty good.
I asked him later, I was like, did you cry
when we left? And he goes, mm hmmm, just a
(07:49):
little bits. I'm like, oh, it's pretty funny. He goes
just a little bit, and then he scorches up his
face and he and he puts his thing hers up
to show a little bit. He goes just a little bit. Yeah,
but there were kids freaking This is day two for
everyone else. It was his first day and he shows
up as the kid with sores on his mouth and hands.
(08:14):
He's not contagious, but I'm like, oh gosh, he's gonna
make friends. But Britain was not afraid of the kid.
The other kids, he got a little scared about their
other kids freaking out, and he seemed fine with it.
So do you think I think the handful mouth was
a little bit of a blessing in disguise, because I
think if he had showed up in the first day
(08:35):
surrounded by even more crying children, he probably would have
been more freaked out. So it's kind of nice that
he got to go in there daily. So we we
left um and that first day because we were all there,
but this was before you went to Portland, and you
got a little teary, and may even got a little sad.
(08:56):
She could feel that there was something going on. I mean,
I think Maven is an EmPATH and I think she's
just picking up on there's a lot of sad kids there.
We're like, why is this happening? And I think that's
just never never seen us leave Bryn somewhere with strangers
(09:17):
in a strange place. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah again,
I wouldn't call that EmPATH. I just call that noticing
behavior in circumstance and context. Well, I know, and that's
why I did. Um. So we picked him up and
he uh, he was so well. I picked him up
with Maven and UM. He was very excited to get
(09:40):
out of the classroom and they have a sign out process,
so he kept trying to like cut in line and
lead like flee to the point where the teacher just
gave up stopping him and just let him walk out
to me UM and then signed him out. He was
like pretty happy. He didn't really want to talk about school,
just wanted to go on the playground. And then later
I was asking about it and I was like, I
(10:03):
was like, so, did you like school? Do you make
some friends? And he was like he was like referring
he thinks daycare is school. So he was like, that's
not my real friends. My real school has my real friends.
So apparently pre preschool does not qualify as real school.
It's just preschool. It's pre school. You know what that
(10:25):
logically does make sense it is pre school even though
well it's it's post school for him. I suppose, so
you left town started go ahead. The doctor the other
day was trying to ask him what grade he was in,
and she he like, just had no idea what she
was talking about. He was like, what I mean we
(10:50):
have because we we decided to call daycare school. And
I think that has confused him. It would be a
bigger deal for something you're finally going to school, because
he knows what school is from TV shows and stuff,
but he thinks he's already been to school. Um, so
it's all to go. I tried to explain, and I
(11:11):
made it overly complicated, where I was like four year
olds like you go to pre kindergarten, five year olds
go to kindergarten, six year olds go to first grade.
And then I was like, oh, the numbers are getting complex.
Seven second. Last week when you were out one night,
he refused to go to bed, so I let him.
He you know how he has to watch Growing Up
(11:33):
TV when he's trying to convince me to let him
stay up, which means like not compromise mutual stuff. That's
his compromise. He knows it's like someone more appealing to me.
So I put on the movie Greece for some reason, um,
and he was watching it, like really trying to wrap
his head around what was happening. Um. And the two
(11:54):
things he picked up on was that they were kissing,
very funny and a prolonged, passionate kiss. And the second
thing was he was like, they're at school, um, And
then he saw like kids bullying each other and like
popping a basketball and stuff, and he was, I don't
know if I gave him ah an unfair impression of
what school would be like, Yeah, well it's not going
(12:18):
to be like Greece, Bryan, that's an unrealistic expectation. No,
they're not. All the kids are going to be forty
years old. Uh. So you left town the next morning,
and Um, I had a long weekend with the kids
and Brent stayed home. I took Maven back to daycare.
(12:39):
I kept because she had fewer disgusting spots all over
her face. I kept Brant home and it was great
because I had a whole morning with him and luckily
I didn't have to go into the city. And then
I took him to his second as his second day
of pre K and we stood in line. My favorite.
We were there first, and he's got his name tag
on and he loves it. It's purple. And these two
(13:03):
girls show up and they seem like they're on the
older end of four. They're bigger than him, and their
parents are like these young sort of attractive like Russian women. Uh,
we're all who are sort of like somewhat fashionable, and uh,
their daughters are appropriately matched to them. They've got like
(13:25):
they're cute sort of outfits and they're bigger than him.
And they walk up and Bryn just walks up straight
to them and he goes, Hi, my name is Brin,
and he holds up his name tag and he goes
b r y N and then he starts explaining to
them how then the lanyard works and he goes, there's
(13:45):
and he takes the purple piece of paper out. He goes,
you can open this and pull it out. And these
two girls like we're looking at them like such stereotypical,
like oh my god, like who's this weirdo? And like
I saw them like sort of side eye each other.
They looked at each other and they didn't say a
single word to brand during this whole conversation as he
(14:07):
man explained lanyards to these girls, and then he just
got done and he turned back to me and he goes,
I told them how this works. And he's very confident,
and he talked to all the kids and he was
It's like he knew what's up. It's very me where
he learned a thing and now he needs to explain
it to everybody else. It's kind of exciting to survey
(14:30):
this like new group of kids and try to figure
out who he's going to end up friends with. Because
there was like a very bubbly, like somewhat chubby kid
who's like seemed very like talkative, and I was like, oh,
I could see them meeting up on the playground. Uh.
The funniest thing actually happened as I left. He's they
(14:51):
stand in line outside until they go in together, and
so you say goodbye while he's in line. And then
I left, but I like hid behind a car to
watch him to he went in because this was my
I didn't cry or anything that first day because I
was making fun of you, but alone, I let watched
him go in and I burst into tears all by myself.
(15:12):
And it's suddenly a daylight. But as he was standing
in line, there's a kid standing behind him, and clearly
a teacher had been like, you need to stand behind
the person in front of you. So this kid took
this note very literally and he had to stand right
behind brand So Bryn would like turn around to see
who was behind him, and this kid, you could see
him panic be like, oh no, I need to be
(15:33):
behind this other boy. So he would shuffle to stay
behind Bryn and Brandon then couldn't see him because he moved,
and then Brent would look the other way, and then
the kid would run around like like a Brin looked
like a dog trying to chase his tail. He like,
and He's like, what the hell is this kid doing
behind me? But it was stressing the The boy behind
him was so stressed out because he was trying to
(15:55):
follow the rules and Brinton was making it impossible by
spinning in a circle. But it was wildly successful and
they were they were sick, We're fine, and pre k happened.
(16:17):
The last thing I want to say, the funniest thing
happened the other morning. So I was I was sleeping
in It was the weekend and a lot of times
we wake up to Brin. And I woke up yesterday
morning with Bran standing looking right into my face like
(16:38):
inches away, and I like sort of startled me. And
the first thing he said, with a sweet face, he's like, Daddy,
someone wants milk. And then he pointed to his face
and he goes, it's me. Now it's time for did
you knows? This is where we share a parenting fact
(16:59):
that we've learned in the past week. So I read
an article recently in a New York Times and uh,
I'm going to summarize it. It's a very simple concept,
but um, we've talked about this indirectly and and more
directly over the past few weeks. But the gist of
it was basically like, if you want your kids to
(17:19):
learn and to take responsibility, both punishment and reward are
not necessarily good things. You know, if you you overdo
it on either one of these things, uh, you're denying
your kid the natural sort of lesson of um, being
(17:41):
self motivated and learning to do things because you're supposed
to do things, uh, as opposed to some sort of
external reason, like if you threaten your kids, like do
you better do this or this? Is going to happen, um,
or you say like okay, just pick up and you
get a cookie. The more you do that, the more
(18:01):
you become reliant on those tactics. And it's not creating
a child who inherently will think to take responsibility for
things and to do their their chores, because there's always
this external motivator. So the argument of it is, um too,
(18:22):
as much as you can get used to the all right,
it's time to clean up, because it's time to clean up,
and there's no punishment or there's no reward. It's just
a stick tuitiveness where this is what we do and
you have to be stern about it to get started
and make them do it. But just try to put
your emotions aside. And it's more about persistence than it
(18:45):
is about emotions or threats or rewards that what do
you think about that? And how do you think we're
doing in that regard? Because I definitely have used the
threat of punishment and the h and the idea of
rewards plenty. Um. What do you think, um, so I
(19:06):
in terms of the flat out sternness, you're definitely better
than me because I get too exhausted and don't have
the energy. Um, you are more inclined to propose punishment,
which in my opinion has almost no effect on Britain
and only incenses him. Um. And then I am more
(19:26):
inclined to do reward, which is very useful in getting
our kids out the door in the morning. When they
want to cling to me and cry, I will hand
them a fistful of cereal and be like, oh, chew
on this while you walk outside. But um, I don't.
I I fully believe that that's not a good habit
(19:49):
to have. And then at the same time, I think
sometimes you just have to distract your kids so you
can get through the day. So yeah, I I agree.
It's definitely that thing where the less you use it,
the more powerful it is, you know. So it's that
like I try every as much as I can to
(20:10):
not say if you do this, I'll give you a thing,
um and the and instead just keep calm and say
we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this. Like with Bryn, Yeah,
the best tactic is when he says no is to
just sort of take a step back, change the subject, uh,
(20:31):
get distracted and be like, hey, did you draw this?
What is this? Over this? And then there's a beat
and then you come back to it's like all right,
choose on, here we go. Um, and it's deflecting and
it's like riding the wave of the energy of your
kid is to me, has been the most successful for
me because I can say it's like, oh, he's resisting,
(20:51):
he's resisting, but his heart's not in it. Then don't
push because he's gonna suddenly have a harder stance than
he really men too, Yeah, he's like, oh we're having
an argument. Great game on. Um. Yeah. I do think
when with both of them, it's like if you're just
trying to do something simple like put shoes on, it's
like if you can think to start a conversation about
(21:14):
school or like whatever you're saying while it's happening, so
that they're not even thinking about the shoes while they're
being put on, it's like so much easier. Yeah. I
think it's really um useful tool. It's because he's usually
saying no because he's he's always like where he is
(21:35):
right now, he's present, he's in his bed, and the
idea is like put your shoes on, we're leaving. He's like,
I don't want to do a new thing. I'm here,
and I'm the same way, like it takes a lot
of energy for me to go. All right, it's time
to go, and as soon as I'm in the new place,
I'm so excited to be there. But with bren Um,
I've also found that you have to activate the new
(21:55):
place in his mind in a way that's not like
we have to go to this place. If it is
just like, oh, hey, what today's Wednesday. What do the
Wednesday toys look like at school? Because they have days
of the week things. I did this to him once
and I was like, are the Wednesday toys the square toys?
And then he's like, oh no, no, they're this and
he starts talking about it. And now mentally he's in
(22:16):
that place. And so when I started putting his shoes on,
it's he's no longer in the mode of I'm trying
to get him to leave here. He's already in that
place um or So it's like activating the imagery. It's
like concrete images that I can put into his head.
Part of his brain thinks he's already there, and so
there's it's at best to distract, it's at least a distraction,
(22:40):
and at best, he wants to be in that new
place right and you you also don't want to unintentionally
telegraph that you're expecting a fight, because then they'll they'll
pick up on that, like if you're like brain shoes,
he's an already in fighting mode. Yeah. Yeah, Well it
helpful to have two of them because I go, I'm like,
(23:02):
all right, Brandon, we gotta get gotta get dressed, and
he's like no, and then I just, I don't know,
I'll maybe just completely ignored him, like all right, we
got a few minutes. And then I'll turn to Maven
and I'll start putting. I'll get half of her dressed,
and then I'll turn to Brand and be like, hey,
I got you, I got your pants. Here you go. Um,
and then I go back to Maven. And that back
(23:23):
and forth I think has helps in that distraction. Keeping
his focus off balance seems to help. I started doing
the counting, like there's two, you know, I'm gonna count
to three. But there's a punishment version of it that
I don't think works, and there's a I'm gonna give
(23:44):
you this much time and then this is going to
happen this morning. I did this, he wouldn't get dressed,
and I go, okay, great, I'm like, well we have
to go, so um, you can take a little time
and then I'm gonna come back and we have to
put your pants on. And then we come back and
goes it want to put them on? Like all right, okay,
well I can put them on. I can put them
on you, which I know you don't like, or you
(24:05):
can put them on, um, but I'm gonna count to five,
and uh, when you get to five, I'm gonna put
them on. And it's not a like or you're gonna
get punished. It's like, well, I'm just gonna put your
pants on. So I counter to five, and he said no,
and I grab him, and I like, I will force
pants on to him. And the key to is that
(24:25):
just like I can't show him any I'm upset, I'm
mad at you, because then that's like that's potentially a
scary thing, but it is that like, I gotta put
your pants on, And I keep a light tone as
I'm holding my son down essentially and pulling pants onto
his legs, and he gets over it quicker and then
did after I got pants on and he I left
the room and he screamed, and then he found a
(24:46):
toy and forgot about it. I don't think I've ever
muscled clothes onto him and had him calmed down about it.
I mean, I think this is something I'm able to do. Um,
because I'm a monster and I'm so very strong. Yeah. Um, well, Beth,
(25:08):
my dear, Um, this is gonna be a special episode.
I'm gonna have a special guest because you're you're off
across the country, but it's been such a delight to
talk to you. Is anything you want to tell the
fine listeners before you hop on a plan and come
home to me? No, Um, I just I will say
Portland is a beautiful city with great food, and um,
I think they've invited me here the most beautiful time
(25:33):
of the year to try to check me into thinking
that this is what it's always like. Brought to you
by Oregon and Travel b r O Organ. It's pretty nice.
That's my tagline. It's free Organ, all right, baby, fly
home to me, Bye bye, all right bye, all right.
(25:54):
Now it's time for a brand new segment, which I've
decided to call We gets to know those This is
where we have for the first time I ever in
the show a very special guest today with me. Here
is a longtime friend, hilarious comedian went to school with
this man. It's John Dixon. John, Hello, Hello, thank you
(26:18):
for having me. The way I've set up the microphones,
we cannot see each other's eyes. Um, which is not typical,
but we'll make do. John Uh is here and John
has gone through He's in the middle of a process
right now, which um he started telling me about, which
is fascinating and I know nothing about. So I said,
(26:39):
don't don't tell me anything about this. Let's do it
while recording. And that is the process of adoption. John,
you're in the middle of this. Tell me this story.
Where's this start? Okay? Um? Well, it starts when you
try to get pregnant. Well, sometimes it starts when you
(27:01):
try to get pregnant and and you're not successful. I am.
I'm sure it can start with the decision to just adopt,
especially if you're in a sure yeah, Well, you don't
need to speak for all adopt tours. In my case,
it starts with trying to get pregnant, and then you
(27:21):
learned the first lesson, which is not all bodies I
can't get pregnant. Yeah, amn's for one. Um, this was
a big I know when when when Beth and I
first when she first got pregnant. This was a really
dumb lesson I learned, which is I'm like, oh, we're
having a baby. I should tell my friends with with
(27:43):
wives to have babies. And I'm like joking, like when
are you going to have one? And a lot of
them had trouble and I learned that quickly, and I'm like,
that's so stupid. Don't don't do that. So I assumed
that was a difficult process. It's very difficult. Um. I
do want to chime in and just add that I'm
(28:04):
also a full time elementary school teacher, which will will
come in handy in this conversation because it has been.
One of the best parts about this whole experience is
being able to educate the young children that I teach,
and that was one of their biggest questions and a
little adorable naivetees when I told them about this whole process,
(28:26):
they were like, well, why didn't you just get your
wife pregnant? Mr John, Why don't you get your wife pregnant?
What's wrong with you? Are you a real man? Do
you need us to explain it to you. Is these
kids are brutal um in their in their own words,
they basically like, very very sincerely, curiously asked that, like, well,
(28:48):
can't you just just have a kid? I don't get it. Um.
So being able to explain that and have them learn
that that is a truth. Um So, yeah, it was very,
very very difficult. It has been very difficult. We were
trying for a few years and then we started going
through the next stages of scientific discovery, where you go
(29:09):
to different doctors and find out ways that they can
help you. Um and none of them are which I
also did not know. So it's very expensive to do
scientific enhancements to help your biology, and it's not guarantee,
so we and it's also very invasive to the woman's
(29:31):
going to ask. I'm sure some of those are not
either convenient, comfortable, or safe, that's correct. Um. So we
decided together that adoption was the way for us. Um.
So there's that um Um. What I mean, once you
got to the point where it was accepting or realizing
(29:56):
that that you weren't going to be able to have
a baby on your own, was that the idea of like, oh,
let's adopt. Was that difficult? Was there a struggle um
within you as the like, is that something I actually
want to do? Yes? That was difficult um. And yeah,
(30:17):
it's been a couple of years total. Um. I've always
wanted to be a dad. Um. And so even before
we got married, we were we were trying, we weren't
planning to get married necessarily. Um. Yeah, so it was
definitely difficult, but it I've passed that part. I'm in
(30:39):
the pure joy and excitement. UM. I wouldn't say it
was difficult to accept not being a biological father because
I really am aware of how different ways you can
make a family. UM. And I so identified that really
(31:01):
what I wanted was to be a caretaker. So it
wasn't the need for the biological Yeah. Because you obviously
you have spent years doing just that as a teacher,
have you. I imagine in that process you've also ah
been exposed to a typical family structures. Was that How
(31:24):
did that help? It helps very much? Um. It has
ingrained a consciousness, conscientiousness. I'm very aware of how I
talk about families more more openly and less close mindedly. UM.
And how you how you Yeah, the word choice to use. Yeah,
(31:45):
Bryn started pre K this week and one of the
things they asked for is a photo of his whole family,
because they have the family tree on their wall, and
I would assume that it is to show kids that
families are different. Yes, and I don't I don't ever
remember having that growing up and seeing that. Did you
(32:06):
ever experience like that when you were younger? Nope? Mhm um. Yeah.
So as I've been going through this process and I've
been trying to think about adoption, yeah, it made me
realize that I have no idea if any of my
childhood friends were adopted. It just wasn't talked about. We
(32:26):
didn't talk about family differences. You you knew that there
were a couple of divorced families and single moms, but
um and the kind of language that I use now
as a teacher, where you say a parent because you
can't assume that people have two parents, um, or which
(32:46):
which gender or which term they So you decide you
want to adopt, what is that? What is that first?
Where do you begin? No idea? For you follow the
advice that I was given, which I followed, and I'm
glad I did so. My advice in the advice circle
(33:07):
now goes to ask everyone you know who might have
been involved in adoption, UM and so I did that.
I had three friends who I knew adopted, and I
asked all of them for advice, and they also the
same thing. You should do some research and go online
and search for adoption in New York City, look at
foster care, look at open adoption, closed adoption, and really
(33:31):
educate yourself so that you're making the best I don't
know the choice that that feels best for you. What
is open adoption and closed adoption? That means, uh, the
child knows everything about their situation, which is what we're doing.
So the research, I mean Commond research is subjective, am
I right? People? But but the research that we're that
(33:54):
we're listening to is um. It is that I agree with.
I believe that I agree with that it's healthier for
a child to know their whole story so they don't
grow up with questions and mysteries and feeling lied to
or that something was kept a secret. I feel like
little kids, and you probably know much more about this,
but I feel like if you know about it earlier,
(34:17):
it's normal and it's not this Uh. I have found
that with less important things although not unimportant talking with
Brin already about like sex and death, where these questions
come up, and I'm like, I'm gonna answer these questions
because those are things that seem scarier when they feel
(34:39):
like they've been a secret, yes, and they become people
seek out answers in perhaps unhealthy ways if it has
been kept from them. So, yeah, so we're doing an
open adoption UM. They're open adoption agencies that sort of
serve as I would say, like the middle person. So
(35:00):
they interact with the birth mother and they interact with
the adoptive parents so that those people don't have to
interact with each other UM. And so when when a
birth mother decides they want to go with adoption, they
contact the agency, and the agency has social workers and
counselors who make sure this is definitely what they want
(35:23):
and that they're not being pressured by outside UM forces.
And then they match up a birth mother with the
birth parents, and then throughout the entire process, and from
day one of the child's birth, you're encouraged to tell
them your story. You you know you were born, this
is your birth mother, UM, and she gave us a
(35:44):
great gift by letting us take care of you. And
so just and closed adoption, I guess that's probably the
adoption that a lot of people have in their heads,
which is the giving up this baby. And there is
that like your giveing up knowledge of them, and that's
that where the child when they turn eighteen has the
(36:04):
ability to like find out about them in some cases
or is that that's typical? Um, So close adoption makes
a better movie because then you go on your search
find your story. Um, but is there boy? I mean,
I've actually never really articulated the difference to myself like that,
(36:26):
and without fully unpacking it, it seems it seems well,
I was going to be judgmental. It seems like a
little crazy that you would say, I don't want to know.
I want to put it totally out of my hands.
But I'm sure there are instances where maybe that's for
the best. Yeah. Um. And even through an open adoption
(36:51):
with an agency, what we're doing so the agency, our
social worker has told us that there are times when
the birth mother says, I don't want to be in
this job's life at all. I just want I want,
I trust you to mash them with good parents. And
then please don't don't involve me um for whatever reason,
(37:11):
for usually some type of trauma. That is is the
opposite of concern, where um they as they have regrets
and want to be more involved than was agreed upon
or something, you know what I mean? Yes, um, yes,
so that is Those are the types of fears. Those
(37:33):
are the things that are scary. So you found a place.
What what was the process of of starting ah which
once you decided, oh this is the place. Yeah. Well,
I will just quickly say that we did take the advice.
We UM did webinars and we visited several adoption agencies,
(37:55):
and it was such good advice because the first few
felt terrible. We um and and if we had thought,
well we just need to do this and gone with
one of the first ones, it would have not been
a pleasant experience. We drove out to you know, the
small towns in New Jersey where they had these little
white offices and they write the agenda on the white board.
(38:19):
Today we're going to talk about First we're gonna do
a budget, Then we're gonna do paperwork. Then we're going
to talk about timing process and how to prepare your
baby room. It's like it's like very just stale agenda. Yeah,
(38:39):
it just didn't feel good, but you don't want to
feel like it's a product like a business, and you
never want to adopt from someone with the New Jersey
accident exactly because we all hate New Jersey. Yeah, that
was a joke. That was a joke. That was a joke,
But that was a perfect New Jersey accident. It was
flawless anyway. So we so then we found the one
that just felt really good. It had a warm just
(39:05):
uh well, it was a two day orientation, which is
different from the others. So first it's like getting to
know you and you meet everyone on staff, every single person.
So just a warm room and this is just a
going to check it out is a day process. Um.
And even even that felt good because because they they
(39:26):
were admitting this is super intense and highly emotional and
you better be willing to commit two days. Um, if
you're if you're sure, this is what do you want
to do. It's it's something you should definitely at least
sleep on one night. Um. So then after that to
day orientation, I think many people continue to sleep on
(39:50):
it for for more nights. You know, they're just like,
all right, well let us know, here's our contact information.
We hope you had a good time, so nice to
meet you. We heard half a dozen different stories, some
of them bad, some of them good, which is very realistic. Um,
but we it just felt so right. So we actually
signed as we were leaving, like the end of the
(40:11):
two day orientation, signed on. And then the really tedious
part of just endless paperwork, every single bank account you've
ever had, every address you've each ever lived at, um,
all your family members, their ages, their birthday Like it's
really invasive, and it was like trying to get a
mortgage in two thousand eight, Am I right? Financial crisis?
(40:36):
Not too soon? Actually, no, not too soon. Yeah, we
can totally joke about that. Um. And then then there's
this other kind of interesting part which sounded fun. Uh,
it sounded fun, but it it ended up being a
little a little hard. Um. So you make a profiles.
(40:56):
There's with an open adoption, there's a online dating feel
to it where the birth parents browses profiles and says, oh, oh,
so these women are choosing yes the parents. That's so interesting.
Never would have occurred to me. Um. So so they
(41:18):
were like, okay, so your paperwork is finally done. Thank
you for turning in page number one sixty three. Now
the fun part. So you make a profile, um, which
yeah sounds great. However, they had all these restrictions. It
was super nuanced, and so you actually have to have like,
you know, more than eighteen photos but less than thirty one. Uh.
(41:42):
And you can have two or three that are wearing sunglasses,
but no more than that. You can have one or
two that is a selfie, but not more than so
you have to add like a mix of all these
yeses and nose So that kind of got more to
idious then it would have been if it was just like,
just make a profile that shows you being you, um,
(42:05):
and then you overthink it and then and then you're like, oh,
we can't overthink, you just need to do it. Um. Anyway,
so the whole thing from signing on after the orientation
until going live was about five months. Um. And how
long ago was that? Because that's where you is that
(42:27):
where you are right now? Yes, so we are a
live waiting family. We have a profile on the website,
and it's just you just wait and it's you know,
it's all these factors that you just can't control like
there could be a month where no pregnant mothers go
(42:47):
with this. I mean, you know, think about all the
different options. So there's you could decide to parent, or
have someone in your you know, even if you decide
you can't parent, maybe there's someone else in your immediate family.
It makes sense to abortion, there's um foster care, there's
several different agencies, domestic. You know, there's just so many
(43:10):
different routes you can take that you're you're you're just
waiting for the mother too, so they find out suggests
to find out about the agency. Then she has to
choose you out of there. So I assume this could
be a woman who is just found out she's pregnant
(43:30):
and and but she wants to carry the baby to term,
and so you find that out and then you know
that you will theoretically have a baby in seven months.
Or it's somebody who just gave birth and it realizes
that they can't handle it correct, so you can get
a find out and have a baby tomorrow or in
(43:52):
half a year. That's exactly right. And is this all
from in the country? Yes? Uh wow, that's a that's
an intense waiting game. How long? How long? Have you
been waiting now? Did you say that? And July we
went active? Do they give you do they say that
(44:12):
there's a typical length. I mean I suppose they say
between two and twelve months. Wow, So through through this
since July, how have you have your feelings changed or
ebbed or flows? What are those fears or excite excitements
(44:34):
and have they evolved since then? Um, that's a good question.
I haven't actually thought about that. It it was pure excitement.
I mean it was, you know, it's tedious and and
annoying doing all the working and waiting. Pure excitement. Once
they sent us the congratulations you're live email, even though
(44:56):
that's a weird thing too, it's a weird part of
the world, but it is so we got our congratulations.
Your profile is available for pregnant mothers to choose you
to raise their children. Um email. And then they're super exciting.
And the agency is great because they keep in touch. UM.
(45:17):
With that, they have a social worker assigned to you
who keeps in touch and feels your pulse. And her
advice was just live your life, just um. Because we
live in an era where you can get everything really easily,
you know, target it's open pretty late. You're in Bavor tomorrow.
(45:37):
It's all right, target is open um. So she said,
just live your life, you know, maybe get Travelers insurance
on the off chance um, and then now because we
could get a phone call from you know, maybe someone
from the agency from an an unknown number. So those
(45:57):
those are like the two kind of weird nuanced things.
Travels insurance and start answering your phone from unknown calls.
So again you have no talk to a lot of
spam phone calls. It's so annoying. I never pick up
my phone, hot take, never pick up my phone. It's well, John,
that is so interesting. Thank you so much. And I'm
(46:17):
so excited for you because I know adoption is not
for everyone, and I don't know how I would react
to it, and it's a really interesting question. I know
that people have mixed feelings about it, but I honestly
believe like there's no one I know that is better
suited for this thing. And I wish you all the
best and I'm so excited for you. Thank you. Should
(46:39):
we take some callers, Yeah, we'll just wait here. Somebody
calls my phone. How do you all feel about adoption? Actually, yes,
obviously we can't say call right now, but we'd love
to hear from you. People who have adopted um um
or involved in adoption any sort of way, um, we'd
love to hear from you, and we'll to read some
(47:00):
of those in the weeks ahead. John, shall we take
a break? Sure? All right? Before we go, we're gonna
play a quick round of would you knows? This is
where one of us uh puts posits a hypothetical parenting
situation and the other unpacks it. And I'm still here
with my very special guest, John Jickson, who is going
(47:21):
to give me would you know? Scenario? John? What is
the scenario? I'm ready? Okay. The scenario is you think
your child's are in their room playing. You're so happy
you hear them um, and then you go in and
you're like, hey, what you doing. You go in, they're like, oh,
just playing cars, and they have extended the racetrack using
(47:47):
markers and crayons so that it goes all the way
around the floor the walls. It's just this you know,
crazy imaginative, never ending racetrack that has been drawn all
over the floors and walls. Okay, great, what kind of
writing utensils do they have um everything. So there's there's sharpies,
(48:11):
there's permanent Yeah, they've ruined things. Is the artwork shockingly impressive?
Like it looks like train tracks all around the room? Like,
how artistic is it? It's not very artistic. It is
very very very thorough and elaborate, and it looks like
it's gone through various um revisions where there's tracks on
(48:34):
tracks on tracks um. And has this happened in a
surprisingly short amount of time? Yeah, okay, Yeah, it's like
it's like they were playing for an hour and they
were like, oh, let's have them go here. Actually, let's
have them go here and here and here and here,
and they're as old as they are now. Yeah, okay,
(48:55):
so is it? Uh? Is it? Is it cool enough
that if I if you came over and I was like, John,
check it out my kids, that my kids made this
artwork and I'm leaving it. What do you think would
you react by going? Where the fuck they just drew
all over the room. It's not cool at all, Like
(49:15):
it doesn't look like a genius at work. It's like
someone just didn't realize that you could see everything. Great.
I know my reaction. I would be pissed. Uh, this
has happened before. I would I struggle between being so
mad that we had to clean everything, but also I
(49:36):
recognized how funny it is, and my next thought would be,
I have to instagram this. This is going to get
so many likes because I put my whole kid's childhood
on display. Um, So I actually I would pause, I
would not react. Hopefully, I would close the door. I'd
take out my phone hit record, and then I pretend
(49:58):
I'm seeing it for the first time, and I'd walk
in and I would film it, and then I'd calmly
asked Brin to explain it to me so that he's funny,
and then hopefully that is had has stopped me from
exploding and yelling at my small children, and then we
have a very serious talk. And uh, I think there
might have to be punishment in that scenario, if we
(50:19):
have to replace things. I'm not a big punishment person,
but I think I have to explain that we need
to learn from this. And then I just post it
and I had watched the likes. Roll in, Yeah, did
I get it right? You got it right? Yeah, Yeah,
We've never kept scoring this game before. But there's a
couple of things you could have got more points. What
(50:41):
did I miss? There's an opportunity to UM talk about
to to sort of like educated about different materials, what
goes where? UM you could perhaps even have if they
if that seems like they really want to do stuff
like that, you could create a room where they can
with um. You know, like but your paper on the
(51:02):
walls the room. Yeah, I'll just buy an extra room
and stick it onto my my co op. You knows,
UM missed an opportunity to give constructive feedback and have
them really understand that there's a difference between good looking
drawing and we get into a conversation of about aesthetics
with my two year old. Maybe in this track like
(51:24):
there's there's no cement that there's each tie is a
different distance from the other, you stupid toddler. And you
can take them on a UM street art tour of
Bushwick and other hit neighborhoods and have them notice the
difference between I know what that's actually Maybe I would
have them walk around and tell me are is this
(51:47):
good graffiti or just crappy graffiti? Graffiti? Now related to back,
do you think your graffiti in your room is great?
Brient would say it is no matter what, well, I
think we solved that one. Thank you very much. This
has been Would you Knows? That'll do it for the
(52:07):
week's episode. We'll be back the both of us next week.
But if you want to submit a question or share
a story, gives some advice or suggested would you Knows?
You can always contact us at we Knows Pod at
gmail dot com, or you can leave us a voicemail
at three four seven three eight four seven three nine six.
(52:28):
You can also find that number on our website, we
Knows Parenting dot com. While you're there, why not pick
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social media's the Facebook, the Twitter, the Instagram and we
Knows Pod. Until next time, I'm home alone, I'm lonely.
(52:48):
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