Live from CrimeCon, Payne sits down with John Ramsey, the father of the late JonBenét Ramsey and investigative journalist Paula Woodward, author of the book, Unsolved: The JonBenét Ramsey Murder 25 Years Later, about the infamous murder case. John shares his personal reflections on the impact of the media and public scrutiny on his family. Paula Woodward delves into new evidence and theories presented in her book. Together, they explore the ongoing quest for truth and justice in this unresolved case, providing listeners with an in-depth look at one of America's most enduring mysteries.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:13):
Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and
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Speaker 3 (00:18):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to Talking to Death. It's me again. Dylan Harrington,
producer of the show. Pain and Mic are taking a
much need to break today. We actually just got back
from Crime Con. If you haven't heard of Crime Con,
it's a big convention happens every year, always in a
different place. This year it was in Nashville, Tennessee, so
we a lot of us drove up for that. If
(00:42):
you haven't heard of Crime Con, it's a convention for
fans of true crime and it was a really interesting
experience my first time going. I know Pain and Mike
have done it for years. It's a place where the
most diehard true crime fans can come and meet their
favorite or podcasters, their favorite true crime personalities across TV
(01:03):
and other kinds of media. And I think most importantly
what I learned is it's a place where families can
come families who have lost loved ones and are trying
to get the message out about you know, their family
members who have disappeared, trying to get the message out
to either find funding to help or find a podcaster
(01:23):
who's interested in the story who may pick it up
and gain media exposure through them. And I've seen it
happen many times. A lot of your favorite podcasts have
probably met the families through conventions like this, So it
can be a real resource for families who otherwise can't
find that sort of media exposure, family members who may
have hit dead ends working with the police and then
(01:44):
have no other choice but to take matters into their
own hands. So it's an interesting environment. It's a lot
of worlds colliding ultimately for a good purpose, which is
to you know, help families find their loved ones or
find who killed their loved ones. And on that note,
that's what our episode is about today. So we were
lucky enough to link up with John Ramsey, whose name
(02:05):
you may have heard if you've ever heard of the
John Benet Ramsey case. Payne had the opportunity to talk
to John Ramsey as well as author Paula Woodward in
front of an audience of about five hundred.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
People or so.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
This episode will be a little little more interesting where
it's not as intimate. You're going to hear a lot
of like the stage and the crowd and things like that.
It's a much more open forum, much more raw than
we normally present. But it's a fascinating conversation worth listening to.
If you don't know anything about the John Bene Ramsey case,
I highly recommend just checking it out on the internet
a little bit before you listen to this episode, just
(02:39):
to get the groundwork and the foundation to understand what's
going on in this case. It's one of the most
enduring unsolved murder cases in American history and has been
unsolved for going on twenty seven twenty eight years. John
Bene Ramsey was found murdered in the basement of her
family home, and her murderer has never been found. There
(03:01):
has been a lot of controversy surrounding whether or not
the father and the mother or the brother were involved.
Tons of speculation, but the family has adamantly claimed since
day one that someone broke into their home and murdered
their daughter. The world is very torn on it. No
one really knows for sure, but during Crime con Painn
got the opportunity to sit down with John Ramsey and
(03:21):
ask him a series of questions. And we worked really
hard to prep the interview and make sure that we
covered our bases and Payne asks some interesting questions and
get some interesting answers. Paula Woodward is an investigative journalist
and she was the author of a recent book about
the John bin A Ramsey case called Unsolved the John
Bona Ramsey Murder Twenty five years Later. In it, she
documents a bunch of new information, a bunch of new
(03:42):
evidence that she's putting forth into the case, which is
a fascinating look into the case twenty five years later.
So you'll hear Paula interject in the conversation every now
and then, providing more evidence and more context. Buckle up,
get ready for this. Today's guest is John Ramsey and
Paula Woodward.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Please welcome to the stage the host of Talking to Death,
Payne Lindsay with John Ramsey, the father of the lady Awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 6 (04:30):
So I first want to say thank you all of
you for being here.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I grew up, I was born in eighty seven and
when the murder of job and a Ramsey happened. It's
probably around eight years old, and it was at the
time where my mom would take me to the grocery
store and my siblings were too young and they stay home,
and so every single week I would see a new
tabloid at the checkout counter and.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
I would just ask my mom, like, Yo, what is this,
what's going on?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And so literally ever since then, I've you know, kind
of followed the case and it had a very strong
early impression on me, and I kind of before this panel,
I was just kind of thinking, like, you know, I
bet you just you know, the John Benny Ramsay case,
I think probably had a tremendous influence on why I
(05:25):
even do true crime to begin with, from such a
such a young age. And I remember a few years
ago working on up in Vantas season two actually in Denver, Uh,
someone popped the balloon.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
I was in.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Denver and your son John Andrew called me and I
was like holy shit, and he's like, hey, I.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Want you to do a podcast about my sister. And
I was like, one, are you? Are you serious?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
And then two I was like like like why, Like
there's been so many things on this and the sincerity
he had in wanting to find out what happened, I
just blew me away.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
And then eventually he linked us up for a minute and.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
We had a short phone call, and I remember that
and I heard from you, and I just want to
say that, you know, there's so many different theories and.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
All this stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It's so messy, but one thing that is absolutely for
certain is that you're a sincere guy and you want
to know what happened, and that came through to me
in its purest form.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
So please give him around the wallet for still being here.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Unfortunately, because of scheduling, I'm so annoyed at this, but
I missed y'all's panel from earlier, So I want to
give you guys a second to kind of talk about
what's the latest, summarizing, you know, I guess some of
the DNA stuff we were texting about, and then we
can kind of pivot from there and expand on that.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Well. Hopefully not repetitive to you folks, but we've been
very critical of the Voler police, not because they had
no experience, but because they refused help from the outside.
Lots of help was offered, and so for twenty seven years,
we've been trying to get them to accept help, give
(07:29):
the DNA evidence to the FBI, don't keep the case
in your control totally.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Why do you think they're doing that?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
I don't know. I think initially it was arrogance ego.
The Denver police offered two detectives at their disposal. They said, no,
we don't need it. They didn't have some homicide detective
or a department.
Speaker 7 (07:54):
There's nothing that explains the behavior. For twenty seven years,
years they have stalled. They have blamed John and Patsy
for murdering their daughter. They simply won't share information, they
won't ask for help.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And currently what they're.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Doing is they refuse to give the minute amount of
DNA that they have left over to a competent lab
for genealogy testing.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They're refusing to do it.
Speaker 7 (08:23):
And it's been eight years, and you guys are familiar
with how many technological.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Advances there are with DNA. For eight years they refuse
say nope, we're not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Why would they do that?
Speaker 6 (08:36):
How is that? Do you know?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
It's no logical explanation, right, no, right, But I begin
to think maybe the logical explanation is they've lost it,
or they've misplaced the evidence.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Okay, so maybe it's like there is no it's gone.
It's like, yeah, we're saying it's.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Just a suspicions.
Speaker 7 (08:52):
Still, at the same time, I made up a list
of eighteen different pieces of crime scene evidence that have
never been tested for DNA, So if they want to
get more DNA, all they have to do is test that.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Is it that they don't want to solve it?
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Do you think that? I mean, I'm also just hypothesizing it.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
It also could be that they don't even have it anymore,
or they're just that incompetent, or they suck.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
I'd believe those things too, is it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
They're a version of this where you know early on
and you know this better than anybody because you experienced it.
But you know it's me reading through all that boys,
seeing the news and growing up, and then you know,
as an adult looking back on this case, you know,
people blamed you guys, you know, for.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
This, right, and as did the police as of the police. Right.
Speaker 6 (09:38):
So I'm wondering if there is a.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Part of this where they want to maintain control of
it because they don't want to be wrong.
Speaker 6 (09:47):
Again, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
It's find an excuse, but like, no, that's very popish, meaning.
Speaker 6 (09:51):
That they're not going to want to They're not going
to strike out twice. Right.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Well, you know, I've I've met recently. They've gone through
several police chiefs, and they've always had poor leadersh In
my opinion, they did bring in well it so, I mean, yeah,
and they very poor leadership. Uh, they brought in someone
from the outside, which is a good thing. About four
years ago I met with her. Uh, she'd been in
(10:17):
that position after a couple of years, and I said, look,
you didn't cause this mess. And I feel badly about
criticizing the Boulder Police, but until I see progress or
something different, I have no other basis to comment someone.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
I got to blame somebody.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
And know you want to do the right things. You
have nothing but praise for me.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
But she did nothing.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
But she did nothing, and then she quit and took
another job, and then the news and.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Didn't tell you, pardon and didn't tell you after.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
She talked to her literally like on a Friday, and
she gave me her cell number. If anything you need
call me Saturday. She was gone, Thank thanks for telling me.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Yeah, that sums up a lot. How many years has
it been now?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
It will be twenty eight in December? Well this year, yeah,
twenty years December.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Twenty eight years later, you're here at Crime con from
a large audience for the second time today.
Speaker 6 (11:20):
What do you want to achieve and accomplish today?
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Well, you know, we've engaged in the media. If when
we were allowed to, our attorneys wouldn't let us talk
to the media. For here.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We did a lot back in the nineties, like just
at first or just at a certain point, because there's.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
We Finally they said okay, they don't defense attorneys want
to lock you in a closet.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And was that annoying, just being like I want to, well, yeah,
say something, but don't say anything.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And they said, look, we don't know how to practice
law in the court of public opinion. Yeah, right, so
we can't go out and defend you in the media.
We don't have to do that. There's no rules, no
laws of evidence anything. We were prepared to defend you
properly in a court.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
So anyway, two years later they gave us the okay,
begretchlingly to do a meetia interview and we actually interviewed, uh,
the interviewers because we only wanted to do one. We
ended up going with Barbara Walters, who was really a fine,
fine person and took very sincere interest in us in
(12:25):
the case. And I just I just really was impressive.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
Actually everything watched that one.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You were trying to pick the best person who wasn't
going to have some gotcha moment work.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And that just somebody that felt we felt comfortable with
and that was interested in you know. Barbara was great.
She took us out for dinner, we sat and talked,
and in fact it was on the interview the O
there are five. Of course, she asked us about the
case and I said, well, there are five things that
were evidentiary that we know of, and uh I told
(13:00):
her what the five were, one of which was a
poem print that was unidentified.
Speaker 6 (13:05):
Where was that a?
Speaker 4 (13:07):
It was on the door into the room where we
found John main A. And Barbara knew the five because
I had told her earlier the night before, and she
asked me on camera and I could remember four of them.
I remember the fifth and she went like this below
the camera and.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
You're like, that's what happens. You're under pressure.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
So she was she was a really a neat person.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
After the police were called and then you know, Boulder
police come into your house.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
Remember that, I mean everything I've read and heard, and
it's even statements made by you and Patthy and everyone else.
It's got a ship showing there like it was.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
How would you describe it, Well, that's a good way
to describe that. Good car rds out of my mouth.
They didn't know they're doing and that that they don't
have to They don't have to deal with that every day.
Back then they did like what.
Speaker 6 (14:04):
Were they doing, Well.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
They were making coffee and wiping up the county, right.
Speaker 7 (14:10):
There were seventeen people that were friends of the of
the ramsay. All the cops had gone except for one at.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
What point in the morning?
Speaker 7 (14:21):
Okay, so and her body was found at one o'clock
not yeah, not before that there was.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
I guess well. You know the chief of police later
was criticized for how they handled the crimes scene. He said, oh,
we thought it was a kidnapping. We didn't consider it
a crime scene.
Speaker 6 (14:37):
Well, I mean it's like, okay, well, okay, you were
the whole house.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
But that was the level of competence we're doing. And
I think what really kicked it off.
Speaker 6 (14:51):
Was the.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Lady detective there, who later went on national TV and said, oh,
I knew John was killed because they saw his eyes.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
This is a bull her police.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, she saw, and she grabbed her we could put
to use.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
She grabbed her gun because she was afraid.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
He left short work. I mean she wasn't. But she
wrote up a report and described some actions she saw
that she observed us doing, one of which was John
was casually going through the mail while he's waiting for
the call from the kidnapper. I was looking for another
communication from the kidnapper and this pile of envelopes that
(15:29):
had come through our front door.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
And what he's supposed to do is sit there and
stare at the wall, said, but I was looking.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
For another Is there another communication that it was sent
to us? Yes?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
It was.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
It was a ransom, right, I mean at.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
That yeah, we had the ransom. Mel But I saw
this pile of envelopes that had come through our dorse
mail spot and I was going through. Was there anything
else in there? She interpreted, I was just casually going through.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
The bizarre bi of hers.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Yeah. And then the other one was the note said
we would be called at ten o'clock tomorrow. Well, I
didn't know tomorrow was the day we were in or
was it tomorrow the next day? And so when ten
o'clock came that day, I was well, okay, I gotta
wait till tomorrow. I was going to be excruciating. But
that's the way it is. She said in a report,
(16:15):
was very bizarre that John didn't go crazy when ten
o'clock came and you get the call. Well, I wasn't
necessarily expecting it that day.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
Because you were thinking, well, maybe tomorrow then, you.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Know, I said tomorrow. I didn't know if tomorrow was
the day we're in, or you know, was it tomorrow.
So she reported that, well, I just didn't act right
when when ten o'clock came and went. So anybody reading
that report would say, well, yeah, that that's a very
strange action acts.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
They started taking these little plucking these little things out
and kind of making misinterpreted pictures, was reported.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
And so the whole police case, we were told by
the DA several years later, was that we didn't act
right that morning.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
How does how is one supposed to act?
Speaker 4 (16:57):
Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't yeah,
you know, I'd lost my oldest daughter, Beth in a
car accident. And I gotten a call from my brother
in the afternoon that Beth was killed in a car accident.
And it was of course devastating, shocking, But there's nothing
I could do. I couldn't couldn't go to her aid,
I couldn't get her to the best doctors. I couldn't
(17:20):
help her. It was over with John Mana that morning.
It wasn't over. She was kidnapped. I was going to
get her back.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
So You're like, where is she bring her back?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Because but I've got to do whatever I can do
to get her back, whatever I can do, And I
assumed the police knew what they were doing. I should
have been more aggressive in what we called friends and
(17:50):
but of course we found out later that the police
didn't know.
Speaker 6 (17:54):
What to do.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
They went to the sheriff's office and got a book
on how to deal with kidnappings. But that morning I
had to keep my head and be on my game
and get my daughter back. Yeah, we arranged for the
ransom money. A friend of mine was my banker, and
(18:16):
he got me a credit limit on my visa card
of one hundred and twenty thousand dollars, so I can, wow,
get the cash.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
What's it like making a call like that?
Speaker 6 (18:24):
Is he like?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
What that sounds?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Well, he was a very close friend. He immediately flew out,
one of the first persons that came out to my
Boulder to help. And I remember questioning the detective that
was there, so, how many people are on this case
right now? He said, well, we're all on vacation and
it's just me and and he said, oh, that's not right.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
He was he's a real.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
You know shoo, yeah, a really aggressive guy anyway, But
so we had their ransom money teed up and just
trying to my witch about me.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
So there's so many things about this case that I mean,
I think obviously Boulder police screwed this case up because
they didn't solve it. That's just plain and simple. And
you know, you've been able to point out plenty of
examples of incompetence and things that even you know are
seemingly beyond that. And so I see all this stuff.
(19:23):
I see all these circumstances and scenarios, theories. I see
this DNA DNA here, DNA.
Speaker 6 (19:30):
There, and it's just it's so much going on.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, and so in my head as an investigator journalist,
I always go back to the ransom note because I
feel like, no matter what we end up finding, it
has that has to end up explaining the ransom note,
or that explains the ransom note. And I'm just curious
(19:54):
for you, like, how many times have you read that note?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Well, of course you read it that morning, of course.
And we had to write it, like the handwriting Samples
wrote with the right hand, wrote over their left hand, which.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Is painful, bizarre, it's horrible.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I have to write that horrible note early on, and
this was in days of job and as loss.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
What do you think when you read that?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Like, I mean, like it.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
Was just shocking.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
I mean, uh, you don't. I mean it's a horrible feeling.
It's like and I tell peoples like when you have
a young child, you're in a supermarket or shopping center
and they're gone, all of a sudden, they've disappeared behind
a colt rack or something. It's this horrible feeling or stomach,
where's my child? And you know that happened, lasts for
(20:43):
a moment, and then your child comes out from behind
hiding and the colt rack or something, and thank god,
that's the feeling we had that morning. It was and
it was constant, and you know, where's my child? It's
cold outside, it's dark, and I for part of the morning.
We'll get her back. We're going to get her back.
(21:05):
And we were supposed to go on a family trip
that morning to meet my older kids, and that was
of course canceled or put off. But I ken't think
we're going to make that. Then I finally said, no,
we're not going to make it. Be realistic here. Yeah,
but we're still hopeful. But I was getting discouraged obviously
(21:28):
the more time went on.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And for the sake of just context for you guys,
since we didn't have a screen for this setup that
would work, I posted on my Instagram story like a
typed out version like this legible of the ransom note
(21:49):
that I may refer to some things on so if
you want to look out of yourself and follow along,
you can. That's the only thing on my story right now.
Just go to at Payne, Lindsay and me. It's small,
but you can see what I'm talking about. Because I
don't think y'all can read this, but I'm just thinking
about the note and it says mister Ramsey listening carefully,
(22:13):
and then and further down it mentions you know your name,
so they this person is addressing you John Ramsey, right,
meaning that they knew who you are. Now there's you know,
presumably several ways that they could find that out.
Speaker 6 (22:29):
But what does that tell you? Because it's addressed to
you and you're like, okay, who is this?
Speaker 4 (22:35):
You know you don't think about that at the moment.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
Surely, right, But twenty years later you're like.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Okay, yeah, well you know, we got to know John Douglas,
who's here.
Speaker 6 (22:45):
The real mind hunter?
Speaker 7 (22:46):
Right?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Guy's awesome?
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Yeah, profileer really amazing fellow. But he looked at everything
and said he told us two things when he said,
if you and he came to Atlanta to our home
for a few days, uh he And he said after
he had visited us, he said, if you can act
(23:10):
the way you act now and had done this, you're
the most diabolical criminals that ever walked the planet.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
He's like, then you're a real good way a lot
of people.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
But he also said, I think this was aimed at you, John.
Somebody is either extremely angry with you or extremely jealous.
And I said, oh, man, I can't imagine I've made
anybody angry like that.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
Is that what you think it was?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I subscribe to that theory, I do.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So you need to get somebody that knew you, and
you meaning that you knew that.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
He said, this wasn't about your daughter, This was focused
at you to hurt you. And yes, yeah, and I
think he's right.
Speaker 6 (23:51):
Do you think that you would in turn also know
this person?
Speaker 4 (23:54):
But well, he said you may not. You may not
know him. You know, we've been putting the paper that
a couple of weeks before we'd achieved a sales goal,
and our marketing person wanted to put it in the papers.
I okay, and that was what it was in the
paper with my picture probably really bad. I had a
bad gut feeling when she wanted to do that. Oh yes,
(24:16):
I don't think we need to do that, but I thought, well,
their employees should be proud of their achievements, and so
we did it. That was not a good thing to do.
My focus some jealousy or anger at me, I don't know,
but I think I really do subscribe to that based
on the.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Note that there was somebody who knew you, yeah, and
someone that you probably it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
May know, but they may very angry, were very jealous
of me, and this was to hurt me. Lou Smidt,
the experienced detective that worked on this case, you know,
wonderful man, said, well, this is a kidnapping gone wrong.
And I always thought there were conflicting theories.
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Is that how you feel about it?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
That the attempt truly was supposed to be a kidnapping
and then that went wrong.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
That's what Lou felt. He said, Look, what do you feel? Well,
I think, well, I always thought those are conflicting theories.
They are a little bit right, like point, well, they're
really not.
Speaker 6 (25:14):
Because so in your gut though, like well, I.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Was comforted by realizing that those are not conflicting theories.
They could be they could be together together. Somebody was
angry in what way you mean? Well, it could be
somebody that was angry or jealous of me and then
wanted to kidnap my daughter. Sure that went wrong, and
there's apparently, Lou, where there's indications that that's was an
(25:39):
attempt to get a really attempt at kidnapping. So it's
comforting to think, yeah, these hear, these two world class
people that have different theories. Well, they're really not.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Different kind of they can make a bigger picture tied together.
So do you lean more into the idea that somebody
was out to get you and kidnapped your daughter for
a real rapsom or that it was a sexual predator
of some sort that was random.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
No, I don't think it was random. I think it
was somebody that had been observing us, knew our house.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I wasn't random, like they were planning this out a way.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah. You know the one hundred and eighteen thousand, which
is the amount asked for a ransom, Well that's a bizarre.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Number, isn't that not a million bonus number?
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Close to it?
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Well, it turned out it was my annual bonus which
was on my all of my paycheck stubs, so for
a year, every two weeks, And we weren't careful with
where we laid those.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So how could someone have like you say that someone
could have got that from the trash or something, or like,
how could one.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Well say, if they'd been in our house and gone
through our house, they'd have seen it.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Like even when they were in the house that night,
you mean potentially or.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Potentially Yeah, I mean, we weren't careful with papers and
stuff like.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, right, it could be found.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Right, they weren't. They weren't somebody that worked.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Somebody wanted I just wandered around.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Yeah, And that's to me the most logical explanation of
what that number was. It it had some meeting to
the killer, right, some message.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Because it's too It's just means it makes a great,
big number that's available as a ransom.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Right, I mean, why not a million they don't want?
Speaker 6 (27:28):
Yeah, this means I know, joll could get this to me.
So they clearly had that.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
I mean, I was head of this company and our
sales had achieved a billion dollars, which in are we
were like a grocery store. You got to sell a
lot of stuff to make a little money. And so
we were still small in our niche of the industry,
but we were proud of that. And and but I
was an employee. I was lockheeded about the company years ago.
(27:53):
And I was a Lockheed employee. I wasn't it millionaire
you worked for?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, yeah, my dad retired.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Was a great company, great five years.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, they really treated us wonderful when this happened. But
it was just it was a barner. Somebody pointed out too.
In fact, our minister that said, okay, well one eighteen
is the middle the middle. Uh, right in the middle
of the Bible.
Speaker 6 (28:19):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Well, I don't know, but how many pages like that's well,
it's right in the middle Bible. And in the Psalm
it has a phrase that says, uh saved by the
Cornerstone SPTC.
Speaker 6 (28:36):
Okay, that's that's.
Speaker 7 (28:40):
There.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
Says yeah, well this BTC.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Well nobody, what.
Speaker 6 (28:44):
Does this acronym mean?
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Right?
Speaker 6 (28:46):
Does it mean anything? Or is it well that.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
We're made some sense? Well, okay, maybe this was a
bizarre way to.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Show this that that makes it sound like super calculated, right, yeah, no.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
It was question.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And so my question then becomes, which is why this
case is so frustrating, is that if it was a
very calculated kidnapper killer or kidnapping gone wrong that's cased
the house and got all this information, why on earth
did they spend twenty minutes writing that note in the
(29:21):
house when they could have just came with that note ready.
Speaker 7 (29:24):
Because they because they did not necessarily write it in
the house.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
There were several tablets that Patsy used.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Uh huh.
Speaker 7 (29:31):
It was written on one of the tablets. It could
have been taken out of the house. She never would
have known it, and he could have written it them.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
So you're you're saying that it's possible that this person
took this out of the house the.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Tablet, wrote it and brought it back in.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
Well, I think what reason, though, Why would they do that?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Take their time when we were told My feeling is
this person was in the house when we left to
go out for dinner. Okay, it was hiding when we
got home. Interesting, in that three hours, sat and wrote
a note. Interesting, we were told again I think by
John Douglas that because the police speculated when we wrote
(30:14):
the note to cover up.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
Yeah, right, that's that's what people we'll say.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Some people said, even though it's diabolical, criminal could not
have written that note after committee or the two wired
going crazy, I don't know. But he said, yeah, this
was written before, written before, So yeah, and I think
that's right.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, I mean that makes that would make more sense
because if if you killed anybody in the house, I
feel like dancing has to get the hell out of there,
not spend twenty minutes looking for a pen and pad
in the kitchen or whatever. Right, So do you think
that the note was written in the house.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
I believe that.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
But okay, do you think it was written before she
was murdered?
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Yeah? Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (30:59):
And that have been while you were at dinner that
night at the Christmas party, or before the murder happened.
Speaker 4 (31:08):
Oh I think I'm I again subscribe to John Douglas's.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Like he was hanging in there already.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
He was there, he was killing time write in the note.
In fact, there are several practice notes. Apparently your practice.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
Either was something about like an in print or something.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Right, Well, there was a greeting.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Didn't say mister and missus ramsay, and there was John
And so what did I tell you about the psychology
of the person who was writing that note? Why did
they change it from both parents?
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Suggest you?
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Well, again, John Douglas felt it was What do you
think I subscribed to his theory? I think that's that's
quite possible. It's a sobering thing to have to Yeah,
I get stapped, but.
Speaker 6 (32:12):
That night, yeah, the Christmas party.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Just walk me through because I don't Honestly, these parts
are muddy online and I don't want to just go off.
That's from your own recollection. I know it's been forever.
But you're at this Christmas party, you leave, come out
of the house. Just walk me through leaving the party
and then going to sleep.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
That timeline, well, it was we left the our friend's
house with the kids. I think it was like nine
thirty something like that. We were leaving early the next morning.
John and a had fallen asleep in the car and
it was a fairly short drive that she was tired
in all a long, big day and we stopped at
(32:58):
one friend's house and drop off for Christmas present and
then went home. I carried John Benet upstairs.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
She was sound asleep, which which it was a three
story house right.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Well, it was three two stories and then there was
like a attic that had been converted.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Did she sleep on second and you guys slept on
the Yeah, got you, but there you took her. Or
where's the front door at.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
It's it's on the first front, well on the back right, Yeah,
but no, it's it's the way your bedroom house. Birk's
bedroom was in the front of the house. The door
was there, and then John man As was in.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
The back on the same floor as the front door.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
No front door is in the first.
Speaker 6 (33:48):
Floor, okay, And where's her room up or down?
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Up one floor?
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And then where's your.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Room at one more level?
Speaker 6 (33:55):
I got you, okay, so you you take her up
and put it a bed.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
I did well. I put on the bed and Patchy
came in and changed.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
Then you love to go to your room?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yeah okay, Well no, actually didn't. Immediately Burke wanted to
play with his toys. I don't remember what they were,
but just we sat there and slay for we got
it to bed.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
We got to get it loud and yeah, my dad
used to duct tape my toys.
Speaker 6 (34:21):
They would make less noise and hid my pretty cruel.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
So yeah, we played with his toys for just a
few minutes. Now we got to go to bed. So
we got him to bed, and then Patchy and I
went to bed.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Did you go to sleep first or you fall asleep
at the same time?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Oh, I don't remember. Yeah, I don't remember. We were
both tired. I mean, it's been a long Monday.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
But it's also like holidays, exhausting already. Yeah, So tell
me about the first thing you remember when.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
You do wake up?
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Well, I got up and was.
Speaker 6 (34:56):
On your own or was you woken up?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I don't remember. I don't know if we had the
alarm set or not, but anyway, you woke up with
you or no, she was maybe she was out and about.
We had two different bathrooms that we kind of split
just for civility.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And I was more convenient.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Yeah, And so I was shaving and I heard Patsy scream,
and as it was I knew something was wrong. This
is not just I found the ransom note and so
I ran down and and uh, she showed me the note,
but I and I spread it out on the floor
(35:40):
to try to absorb what it was saying three pages,
and pretty immediately said she was standing by the phone
to call police, call the police. And so she picked
up the phone and called the police. And uh, of
course the police. You're a man, you should have called
the police. Why why did you ask your wife to
do that? That's I don't know. She was standing by
(36:01):
the phone and I was trying to read the ransom note.
But anyway, she called the police and then they came
fairly quickly, and the police officer came was just a
patrol man that was on duty. And so do you
think she ran away? And I said no, she was
a six year old child. She wouldn't have run away,
(36:23):
and I showed him the ransom note. Then he called in.
I guess that's when Linda aren't showed up. The one
detective that was on duty that morning, because everybody else
is Christmas. Yeah. I was told that one of the
(36:44):
police officers was there that morning. They were several for
a while. Asked the chief of detectives, and this was heresay.
I don't know if it's you may know more than
I do. Paul is very plugged in as an investigative journalist.
I was told that one of the police officers called
the chief of detection, I think there's evidence of an intruder.
(37:05):
Could I get dogs to the crime scene? He said, no,
don't do that.
Speaker 6 (37:11):
Well, that was a missed opportunity.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
That well, that really was true. It was a huge
missed opportunity.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
So running with the theory that it was someone who
knew enough about you, who could be a stranger, but
cased the house and just learned enough about you to
know your name, know you had a daughter, and know
you had an amount of money that's pretty damn close
to what you were making in that bonus.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Right, right, So we're.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Going with that, and they wrote the note, and they
wrote the note first, right, and then they go down
to kidnap John Bennet and somehow that goes wrong? Is
that what we're thinking? I think in that series of events?
Is that what you would say maybe? Or what happened?
Speaker 6 (38:02):
And why would they move her body to some other
r Yeah?
Speaker 4 (38:05):
That's well, that's honest.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
You just want to just your thoughts because like I
can't make sense of it either.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Oh, it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 6 (38:12):
Yeah, but like the fact your brain on this for
was obviously crazy. Why would they do that? Why not
just get out of there?
Speaker 4 (38:19):
I don't know, you know what I mean? She was
I'm told, sadly sexually assaulted, and so that doesn't really
fit the kidnapping.
Speaker 6 (38:36):
That's what. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So it's like some things going don't go and I
don't know even you, Paul, like what do you make
of sort of the conflicting evidence and maybe some evidence
I'm talking about doesn't mean anything, and like we're overthinking it.
Speaker 6 (38:50):
But that doesn't jib all the time, right, The killer.
Speaker 7 (38:54):
Doesn't make sense, The police actions don't make sense, nothing
is logical, nothing makes sense about.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
This, But they were but the killer was smart enough to.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Get in and out of there and not get caught
know who you were, and you do not know who
who he was, and he hasn't been he or she
has not been caught till today.
Speaker 6 (39:17):
So maybe that's complete.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Dumb luck so or but I don't know if that's
necessarily true.
Speaker 6 (39:24):
Is it like a is it a.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Dumb person that got lucky or is it a calculated killer?
Speaker 6 (39:29):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (39:30):
I think it was calculated for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
And then therefore why move her body from her room
to what.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Was it like a cellar basement? Yes?
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Like why even waste the time?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Why not get out of there because it was hard
to get out in the first place, to that little window?
Speaker 6 (39:47):
Right? Like, what what do you think about that part
of it?
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Well, I don't know. I mean one of the things
that came up early on was there were two marks
on her in two different locations which were speculated to
be stun gun marks.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
Where were those?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Well, one was on her cheek and one was lower
back or back?
Speaker 6 (40:09):
And uh, do you suspect that may have been used?
Speaker 4 (40:13):
And well, we lou Smidt did some testing on a
pig stun gun and he said, sure are identical. And
he got in trouble with peta of course.
Speaker 6 (40:28):
But well you don't shut the tall, don't sweet about it.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Yeah, yeah, But anyway, but he said, when we did that,
at first there it didn't surface it. He thought, man,
this wasn't right. And then these marks came just came
to light.
Speaker 6 (40:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
He said, bingo, that's exactly the same. So he was
convinced the stun gun was us. This doctor Dilberson, who
was a forensic pathologist in Colorado Springs, happened to be
an expert in sun gun marks. Wow for some very
niche yeah, and he looked at it. We went to
(41:08):
him and said what do you think? Yeah, and he
looked at it and studied and said, with ninety nine
percent medical certainty, these are gun he was he was, yeah,
he was convinced for medical certainty these are sun marks.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Now that's probably likely.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
I was asked by our attorneys, would you allow us
to exume John may and A's body to absolutely one
per verify those stun gun marks. Studies couldn't do it.
Speaker 6 (41:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
John Maya was at rest, he was at peace.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
When did they ask you that?
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Oh it was within months. Okay, you know this because
the stunt gun became very interesting because.
Speaker 6 (41:48):
Yeah, and they would need Yeah, yeah, you weren't of
course reading her.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
Why in the world do we use a stunt gun. Yeah,
it's just I mean, their whole theory just fell apart immediately.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
I mean, the thing is like is like items, and
there's there's DNA and quite a bit of it, to
be honest, it seems like, well there's an under nails
and on clothing, right, and it hasn't matched anybody that
we know of yet. So do you think that one
(42:21):
of those DNA samples is.
Speaker 6 (42:25):
The killer lou does?
Speaker 4 (42:26):
I asked, do you think that though? Do I I
don't know enough about DNA, but like.
Speaker 6 (42:30):
But presumably if they're on her body.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Well, yeah, I mean it's you know, when it was
it was discovery, it was immediately, it was immediately reported
in early January by the lab that did the testing originally,
I mean, yeah, yeah, ninety seven. Back to the police,
we've we've identified this DNA sample unidentified male DNA does
(42:56):
not match anyone in the family, you guys yet, John
and Berkricks included. And that was a big problem for
the police because.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
They didn't like that because their theories now kind of.
Speaker 4 (43:06):
Their theories so they kept a secret, so they tried
very hard for a long time to explain it away
and find a hannocent explanation.
Speaker 7 (43:16):
It was a.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Friend of John Benney's that was over there than the
night before or the day before. You know, I've got
a DNA or under our clothes. He couldn't. I mean,
it was they failed it trying to explain it away.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Would Why do you think that there was no DNA
or fingerprints on the note?
Speaker 4 (43:37):
If that was, I don't think it was ever checked.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
It wasn't. The note was never checked for DNA.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
I mean example, for the police, it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (43:45):
I mean I read that. I mean Patsy's were on
their because you picked up and found it.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
Oh yeah, we we like as well.
Speaker 6 (43:51):
Whether there was no DNA on the note, we don't know.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
It was never looked for.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Oh, never tested for DNA?
Speaker 6 (43:57):
Who didn't never test?
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Older police? Okay, did not have it tested.
Speaker 6 (44:02):
Do they still have it?
Speaker 7 (44:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Well, to me, that would be the biggest thing to
harp on is test the note because there's DNA on
her person, right, and if we're running with the theory
that obviously it makes more sense for an intruder to
write the note. First, it makes no sense that they
would write that with gloves then take off the gloves.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
So right, there was lots of things it should have
been looked at for evidence.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Well, yeah, all going back to you name, it just missteps.
Speaker 7 (44:34):
And we put together a list of crime scene evidence
that had not been tested and we found sixteen items.
So John gave that to the governor. The governor gave
that to Boulder Police, who did not have a list
of crime scene evidence that had not been tested for DNA,
and they haven't done anything with it.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
They have not said.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Allow why they wouldn't have tested the note because it
seemed like they were so hard out to get you
guys in the first place, making you right samples left, right,
left hand, right end. That's going to be exhausting and
annoying and frustrating. Wouldn't they just test it and put
it to rest? If it's somehow I don't know, like.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
You know, I can't explain the action because that's odd.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's almost contradictory behavior, which is so annoying.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
What if they didn't want to know?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Right, but like that'd be so early on to want
I mean, why would they want it to be you
that early in the stages. Had they already like said
enough publicly that they wanted to cover their ass or what?
Speaker 7 (45:41):
When the word came in to the meeting outside of
the Ramsay home that jo Many's body had been found,
somebody in the meeting told me that one detective said
to another detective, not homicide detectives, narcotic detectives who did
not have the training. One of them said to the other,
I knew what they killed her. So they decided that soon.
(46:04):
They decided immediately that it was a Ramsay so they
set out to prove it.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
It's that diamolical, really, you know.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
I And to this day I don't know who it was.
But I'd gotten an urgent message through our friends that
were house we were staying at. You're one of your
fellows you worked with, needed to talk to you immediately.
Speaker 6 (46:28):
When was this this.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Friday? That Friday?
Speaker 4 (46:34):
Was that the twenty sixth, twenty like.
Speaker 6 (46:37):
It could be potentially important. So what happened?
Speaker 4 (46:39):
Well, so I took the call, and I was not
in any shape to take a call.
Speaker 6 (46:44):
I can't imagine.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yeah, yeah, but I talked. He was a guy that
worked with me, and I was a friend, and he said,
I was called by someone inside the system and told
to get you this message. And the message is tell
John to get the best defense attorney he can get
his hands on me because they think he killed his daughter.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Talk about like where you worked.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Yes, it's inside the system. I assumed he was.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Talking about you. So the system for the police tipped
you off like they're going to come for.
Speaker 4 (47:16):
You, right, and so I I that was like shocking,
But at that point it didn't matter whatever. And so
that was the day after that they already had concluded.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
They were quick to jump to that concluded.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
Before evidence was immediately they also called in the group
that was skilled in preparing a case to present to
a jury. Yes you know, yeahah with the picture and
the triagrams and stuff. And they went and they told
us this. Later, they said, the police call us and
said I want you to prepare for case to go
(47:55):
to court, present this, and so tell us what the
other and it says, well, we can't. We're not going
to discuss that. And they said we can't prepare a
presentation if you don't tell us the evidence. And they left.
They said we could deal with that, but say, we're
so convinced that the next day, literally that day. Probably
(48:17):
that it was the parents, always parents. The problem with that,
you know, I've researched it a little bit, and sadly,
fifty six percent of the time in our country, the
homicide of a child is a parent. However, you got
to cut at one more level. In virtually all those cases,
(48:39):
there's a long history of problems in that family. The
neighbors know about it, the police know about it, the
schools know about it. It doesn't just happen out of
the blue.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
That was not happening in the Ramsay house, No.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
Not at all. We had. In fact, our pediatrician was testified,
he said, and we were criticized for taking John Benet
to the doctor a lot. She had allergies and stuff,
and you know, we have good health plan. If you're sick,
we go to the doctor, real simple, right, And so
we knew him pretty well. And he said, I never
saw anything but a loving family.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
Why why don't you think that the the killer took
went back upstairs and took the note back if it
was a botched kidnapping it because when the killer left,
it clearly was no longer kidnapping, because that that that
there was there wasn't a kid that boy, So why
not just take that note away?
Speaker 3 (49:34):
Panic?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
But they spent a long time writing it, and there
potentially they've been in the house for a while. Why
not just take it one of the doors. It's like,
you know, I'm not John Douglas. You know, he's he's
the best at this, But I try to put myself
and try to analyze the psychology of a person who
would do this, and you know, it's it's when I
(49:58):
found it's if not, it's one of the longest ransom
notes in history, which is like, I don't even know
what that means.
Speaker 4 (50:06):
And I was told if we get a sample of
a writing, we got so much compared against we can
say who wrote the note.
Speaker 6 (50:16):
It's it's just so much information and there was no
kidnapping at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
No, you're right, So what does that tell you?
Speaker 4 (50:25):
Guys, Well, it doesn't tell me anything. This is a
very you know, lack of a better word, subhuman person
like just I.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Mean just I mean obviously they're really about Yes, I mean.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
I think I crazy, but smart, Well yeah, those aren't exclusive,
but so smart.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Because they were in there dinking around. I feel like
for a long time. Yeah, that's pretty stupid, I feel like.
Speaker 7 (51:00):
But not if you had the incompetence of the investigators,
this should have been solved the first week.
Speaker 6 (51:05):
Oh, you absolutely should have.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
Yes, you know, there's a door in the basement a
little This house had an elevator and at one time
the people we bought it from were elderly and they
needed an elevator, and then they put this one person
elevator that took about thirty minutes to get up, right,
you know, and we wanted it.
Speaker 6 (51:24):
Out like this is convenience.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
Was right in the middle of the house and we
didn't need it, and so we.
Speaker 6 (51:30):
Gave it in the basement areas as well.
Speaker 4 (51:32):
We went from the basement to is that where.
Speaker 6 (51:34):
She was ultimately found?
Speaker 4 (51:35):
Yes, and how far is that.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
From her room? It's down two flights, so they would
have taken her down two flights of stairs. Yeah, but
that's also to me totally bizarre.
Speaker 6 (51:50):
They're just going up and down writing notes.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
And also they still got away with it, So I
guess it didn't matter in the end, but not the
brain of a really really smart killer.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
Well whoever did this has a very mixed up brain.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Right, worried that there's things going on both ends here
and it's it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Later there was a assault of a child, ye, a
few blocks away from us. That child and John Bay
were in the same dance class, and I think the
method of operation of the person was identical to ours.
(52:33):
Is this after yeah, nine months.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Later and this was it was it? This is an
intruder in a house scenario.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
And I believe they came into the house when the
parents parents were gone, because they came home and set
the burger alarm and then went to bed. And the
mother heard a noise and went to her daughter's room
and found this person.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Like a like a man in there, had a I
think she had a like in the girl's room or like.
Speaker 6 (53:03):
Yeah, the girl in molesting that close to the crime.
Speaker 4 (53:07):
Yeah, and he got to wait out of there. He
got out of there, and the police said and we
it was like Scott, this ought to be looked at
as the same person because of his technique was the same.
I felt as to the father of the other the
next girl, where's.
Speaker 6 (53:27):
The ransom note?
Speaker 1 (53:29):
I don't know, right, I mean, if it was the
same killer, he would have written the ransom note point first.
Speaker 4 (53:35):
Right, Yeah, at the point you know, I don't think
you can.
Speaker 6 (53:39):
I mean, it's just evaluate frustrating that.
Speaker 4 (53:42):
So why do so many murder ten people?
Speaker 6 (53:44):
I know, it's sorry, but.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Just like I don't know, like does there have to
be a good reason, because killing somebody is insane anyways?
Speaker 4 (53:52):
Right, Yeah, they're insane. And you know, we would get
notes letters from people that had the answer, and we'd
read them and they're obviously bizarre and wacko, but we'd
pay attention to them. Yes, whoever knew this person was
also wacko. You don't hang around with people like that
(54:12):
if you're normal.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
So the ransom note one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars,
and you know, that's a pretty close match to the bonus,
So it's I would surmise that they were able to
get that information somehow.
Speaker 4 (54:26):
Right they have, that's my feeling.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
If you don't, if this is not a weird question,
how much money did you actually make and how much
money did you actually have?
Speaker 4 (54:35):
Well, you know, we we had.
Speaker 6 (54:38):
Could they have shot higher?
Speaker 4 (54:39):
Pardon?
Speaker 6 (54:40):
Could they have shot hire? Why not?
Speaker 4 (54:42):
Well, sure they could have. And we you know, I
was president of this company that had grown really rapidly.
It was a billion dollar company. Well, then I must
be a billionaire.
Speaker 6 (54:50):
Well that when I asked for a million dollars, Sure,
but I wasn't.
Speaker 4 (54:54):
We did, we had more money than I ever thought
i'd have, you know RD, but we weren't by any
stretch wildly wealthy.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
But yeah, but then that person would have to know
that too specifically, which means that they would be even
closer to you, not just from like No.
Speaker 4 (55:11):
One eighteen had a meeting to the.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Killer did because like it's too specific.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
It was a message, pardon a message?
Speaker 6 (55:18):
Okay, what do you mean?
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Well? Was it a biblical message?
Speaker 6 (55:21):
But it's biblical? But also the being out of the bonus.
Speaker 4 (55:25):
That, yeah, that could have been a message as you
didn't deserve this.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
I don't know that biblical message?
Speaker 6 (55:31):
What what is it actually?
Speaker 4 (55:33):
Well, in the in the Psalm and I can't recite it,
but one of the sentences is saved by the cornerstone.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (55:41):
S BTC?
Speaker 1 (55:43):
What is saved by the cornerstone means?
Speaker 4 (55:46):
Uh, now you're testing my I I don't have to know, well,
you know, I got to have to go back and
read it to really uh the cornerstone, this cornerstone was
I don't know what this is good. I should ask
my wife, she's a biblical scholar.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
We'll probably tell us after Okay, yeah, okay, okay. Either way,
it's like, once again, maybe something that just doesn't match
here is a match there, and that gets me to
this spot of I feel like the note is a distraction.
(56:28):
I feel like, no matter what, it's just a side show.
Clearly they had to know all this information.
Speaker 4 (56:36):
But like.
Speaker 6 (56:38):
They got away with this, but they failed the kidnapping.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
They failed on that right, and they spent so much
time in there and could have got caught, didn't get caught.
And so I feel like all of the details in there,
like why do not you say this much money tomorrow?
What is all this other stuff? Why don't even spend
that much time writing it? Get the hell out of there?
Speaker 5 (57:03):
Right?
Speaker 6 (57:03):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (57:04):
Wouldn't you like to talk to the killer and find
out me too.
Speaker 4 (57:07):
Badly of any sense, including the murder of a child.
Speaker 6 (57:12):
That's just I mean, what is the motives still out there?
Speaker 3 (57:17):
I do, and I think that he'll be caught.
Speaker 4 (57:21):
Risen or loose, no question.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Do you think that this murder of your daughter, John
and it will ever be solved?
Speaker 4 (57:34):
Smidt now what do you think. What do I think?
Speaker 6 (57:38):
Well, please say yes, well.
Speaker 4 (57:40):
Yes it will be someday, it may not be in
my lifetime, but.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
What what will it take?
Speaker 4 (57:47):
Then you think, I think DNA technology is about so
much and will continue to evolve.
Speaker 6 (57:53):
So much that.
Speaker 4 (57:56):
Properly UH looked for that solved the case.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
You give that a better thorough, actual test, more definitive answers.
My fear is that we get the like, hopefully that happens,
that should happen, and we should all be rooting for
that to happen. When that happens, I'm fearful that it
comes to be like, oh it's a factory worker, or
how many cops were in there that day and there
(58:23):
was no protocol at night.
Speaker 6 (58:24):
Well they had tried in the you know, so like
is it just completely random? And then it's like okay, now.
Speaker 4 (58:34):
What Well, you know the sample that was got taken
and recovered in nineteen ninety seven, that technology was much less.
Speaker 6 (58:46):
Where it is today.
Speaker 4 (58:48):
And so the DA that took over the that office
after the DA that was in power at the time
this happened, UH took the case away to the police.
Now it was it was not positioned that way. I
was like, well, we want to have other lives looking,
she took it away from it. I'm convinced, set up
(59:08):
her own investigative team, did some more DNA sampling, and
now she did that in two thousand and six, I think,
and technology was a lot further old. Today we're just
light years past that and that every well, now our
years were getting well past two thousand and six technology.
But so she did more testing in two thousand and
(59:29):
six eight found more DNA that was compatible with the
DNA that was found in nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 6 (59:35):
Okay sonking in different parts.
Speaker 4 (59:37):
Of the scene on the clothing, I guess, and concluded
that that's enough evidence to show there was an intruder.
Speaker 6 (59:46):
And so she wrote us a letter intruder or that
it just DNA matches itself. What like, how does that
prove that there was an intruder?
Speaker 4 (59:57):
It was anubted by person. That DNA was left on
different parts from John Byn's clothing.
Speaker 6 (01:00:04):
Yes, and body.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah, I'm saying that is it possible that that also
could have been from all those different cops who were
walking around in.
Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
There, and they've tested, they were checked.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
The cops police try to explain the police got they
got DNA to swaps from me.
Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
They went to all of our friends, all of our
French kids, to.
Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
The police specifically, and I feel like there would be
so tight lip about that and not want to do that.
Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
You know, Oh the police had We were told the
police that were involved in this early on they had
more each had an attorney. They had more attorneys than
we did.
Speaker 6 (01:00:38):
So either way, this this all leads to DNA.
Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
We don't have enough information and if Boulder Police is
holding on to this, they need to fucking let go
of it and let grows come in and do it.
And I'm all for you.
Speaker 6 (01:00:51):
What do you think? What do you want the audience
to take away throughout the time now from this? And
what can we do to push the ball forward, because
I personally want to I know that they all do.
Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
You know that I learned a lot recently. There was
an act passed at the federal level, Homicide Victims Family
Rights Act, And basically that gives the family rights you
a homicide case like ours, we had no rights to
(01:01:24):
when the police weren't performing, we could just beg them.
Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
To perform, but this would give you control of the DNA.
Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
But well, the Act, if implemented at the state level,
would give us the power to say, we want change.
We want this case to be taken away from the police,
we want a different agency to look at.
Speaker 6 (01:01:47):
It, empowering the power, empowering the parents of that who's
children something.
Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
And but murder is a state crime. So that and
that's one of the fundamental problems with our system in
my opinion.
Speaker 6 (01:02:03):
You said you want to be a federal crime.
Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
Well, I was going down that track. I thought, let's
make the burner of a child a federal offense. We
ought to as a country imagine that it's not. But yes,
it's not right. And I was told by knowledge of
people that would be a very difficult law to get enacted.
There's a lot of problems with jurisdiction and state lines
and all that stuff. But I was became acquainted with
(01:02:27):
this Rights Act Family Rights Act that was enacted at
the federal level. There's now an effort to make it
a state law in every state. It's right now in
five states, I think, and it's pretty easy for him
to adopt it. It's like a boiler plate law. They
can just though, is this is like where you know,
(01:02:48):
so that would have fixed a lot of our problem
and that we could have demanded under law help and
become that we could get help involved.
Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
My last question to you is what can I do
to find this motherfucker?
Speaker 4 (01:03:07):
Well?
Speaker 6 (01:03:07):
Kill?
Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Yeah, well just give disappoint me in a direction, please anywhere.
Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Go after Governor Polus, who has the right take.
Speaker 4 (01:03:19):
Yeah, well the step but not taken the first step
that could be taken. That's what we've been asking for
for a long time, is the police ought to give
need to give the crime scene evidence to the custody
there and.
Speaker 6 (01:03:34):
To them to get off their ass to do something.
The CBI. Well, they just got there, and.
Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
We want the FBI to have custody the crime scene evidence.
Give them. It's called custodian rightness. I think, all right,
and I think they would then do with it what
it should should be done with it. Very simple act
to do. If they haven't lost the evidence, if they have,
in order.
Speaker 6 (01:03:59):
Will find out there's another egg on their face, and
then we'll.
Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Go from there, right yeah, yep, yeah, Well, thank you
so much.
Speaker 6 (01:04:04):
Today I know that.
Speaker 8 (01:04:05):
They're talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV
and iHeart podcast, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay for
tenderfoot TV. Executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright.
(01:04:28):
Co Executive producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, Executive
producers are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music
by Makeup and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney,
Dylan Harrington, Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo.
Production support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young.
(01:04:50):
Mixing and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our
cover art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our
website Talking to Death Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.
This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you
want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe
to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus
dot com
Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to
you absolutely free. But if you want add free listening
and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot
com or on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and
iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to Talking to Death. It's me again. Dylan Harrington,
producer of the show. Pain and Mic are taking a
much need to break today. We actually just got back
from Crime Con. If you haven't heard of Crime Con,
it's a big convention happens every year, always in a
different place. This year it was in Nashville, Tennessee, so
we a lot of us drove up for that. If
(00:42):
you haven't heard of Crime Con, it's a convention for
fans of true crime and it was a really interesting
experience my first time going. I know Pain and Mike
have done it for years. It's a place where the
most diehard true crime fans can come and meet their
favorite or podcasters, their favorite true crime personalities across TV
(01:03):
and other kinds of media. And I think most importantly
what I learned is it's a place where families can
come families who have lost loved ones and are trying
to get the message out about you know, their family
members who have disappeared, trying to get the message out
to either find funding to help or find a podcaster
(01:23):
who's interested in the story who may pick it up
and gain media exposure through them. And I've seen it
happen many times. A lot of your favorite podcasts have
probably met the families through conventions like this, So it
can be a real resource for families who otherwise can't
find that sort of media exposure, family members who may
have hit dead ends working with the police and then
(01:44):
have no other choice but to take matters into their
own hands. So it's an interesting environment. It's a lot
of worlds colliding ultimately for a good purpose, which is
to you know, help families find their loved ones or
find who killed their loved ones. And on that note,
that's what our episode is about today. So we were
lucky enough to link up with John Ramsey, whose name
(02:05):
you may have heard if you've ever heard of the
John Benet Ramsey case. Payne had the opportunity to talk
to John Ramsey as well as author Paula Woodward in
front of an audience of about five hundred.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
People or so.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
This episode will be a little little more interesting where
it's not as intimate. You're going to hear a lot
of like the stage and the crowd and things like that.
It's a much more open forum, much more raw than
we normally present. But it's a fascinating conversation worth listening to.
If you don't know anything about the John Bene Ramsey case,
I highly recommend just checking it out on the internet
a little bit before you listen to this episode, just
(02:39):
to get the groundwork and the foundation to understand what's
going on in this case. It's one of the most
enduring unsolved murder cases in American history and has been
unsolved for going on twenty seven twenty eight years. John
Bene Ramsey was found murdered in the basement of her
family home, and her murderer has never been found. There
(03:01):
has been a lot of controversy surrounding whether or not
the father and the mother or the brother were involved.
Tons of speculation, but the family has adamantly claimed since
day one that someone broke into their home and murdered
their daughter. The world is very torn on it. No
one really knows for sure, but during Crime con Painn
got the opportunity to sit down with John Ramsey and
(03:21):
ask him a series of questions. And we worked really
hard to prep the interview and make sure that we
covered our bases and Payne asks some interesting questions and
get some interesting answers. Paula Woodward is an investigative journalist
and she was the author of a recent book about
the John bin A Ramsey case called Unsolved the John
Bona Ramsey Murder Twenty five years Later. In it, she
documents a bunch of new information, a bunch of new
(03:42):
evidence that she's putting forth into the case, which is
a fascinating look into the case twenty five years later.
So you'll hear Paula interject in the conversation every now
and then, providing more evidence and more context. Buckle up,
get ready for this. Today's guest is John Ramsey and
Paula Woodward.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Please welcome to the stage the host of Talking to Death,
Payne Lindsay with John Ramsey, the father of the lady Awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 6 (04:30):
So I first want to say thank you all of
you for being here.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I grew up, I was born in eighty seven and
when the murder of job and a Ramsey happened. It's
probably around eight years old, and it was at the
time where my mom would take me to the grocery
store and my siblings were too young and they stay home,
and so every single week I would see a new
tabloid at the checkout counter and.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
I would just ask my mom, like, Yo, what is this,
what's going on?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And so literally ever since then, I've you know, kind
of followed the case and it had a very strong
early impression on me, and I kind of before this panel,
I was just kind of thinking, like, you know, I
bet you just you know, the John Benny Ramsay case,
I think probably had a tremendous influence on why I
(05:25):
even do true crime to begin with, from such a
such a young age. And I remember a few years
ago working on up in Vantas season two actually in Denver, Uh,
someone popped the balloon.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
I was in.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Denver and your son John Andrew called me and I
was like holy shit, and he's like, hey, I.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Want you to do a podcast about my sister. And
I was like, one, are you? Are you serious?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
And then two I was like like like why, Like
there's been so many things on this and the sincerity
he had in wanting to find out what happened, I
just blew me away.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
And then eventually he linked us up for a minute and.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
We had a short phone call, and I remember that
and I heard from you, and I just want to
say that, you know, there's so many different theories and.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
All this stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It's so messy, but one thing that is absolutely for
certain is that you're a sincere guy and you want
to know what happened, and that came through to me
in its purest form.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
So please give him around the wallet for still being here.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Unfortunately, because of scheduling, I'm so annoyed at this, but
I missed y'all's panel from earlier, So I want to
give you guys a second to kind of talk about
what's the latest, summarizing, you know, I guess some of
the DNA stuff we were texting about, and then we
can kind of pivot from there and expand on that.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Well. Hopefully not repetitive to you folks, but we've been
very critical of the Voler police, not because they had
no experience, but because they refused help from the outside.
Lots of help was offered, and so for twenty seven years,
we've been trying to get them to accept help, give
(07:29):
the DNA evidence to the FBI, don't keep the case
in your control totally.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Why do you think they're doing that?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
I don't know. I think initially it was arrogance ego.
The Denver police offered two detectives at their disposal. They said, no,
we don't need it. They didn't have some homicide detective
or a department.
Speaker 7 (07:54):
There's nothing that explains the behavior. For twenty seven years,
years they have stalled. They have blamed John and Patsy
for murdering their daughter. They simply won't share information, they
won't ask for help.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And currently what they're.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Doing is they refuse to give the minute amount of
DNA that they have left over to a competent lab
for genealogy testing.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They're refusing to do it.
Speaker 7 (08:23):
And it's been eight years, and you guys are familiar
with how many technological.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Advances there are with DNA. For eight years they refuse
say nope, we're not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Why would they do that?
Speaker 6 (08:36):
How is that? Do you know?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
It's no logical explanation, right, no, right, But I begin
to think maybe the logical explanation is they've lost it,
or they've misplaced the evidence.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Okay, so maybe it's like there is no it's gone.
It's like, yeah, we're saying it's.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Just a suspicions.
Speaker 7 (08:52):
Still, at the same time, I made up a list
of eighteen different pieces of crime scene evidence that have
never been tested for DNA, So if they want to
get more DNA, all they have to do is test that.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Is it that they don't want to solve it?
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Do you think that? I mean, I'm also just hypothesizing it.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
It also could be that they don't even have it anymore,
or they're just that incompetent, or they suck.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
I'd believe those things too, is it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
They're a version of this where you know early on
and you know this better than anybody because you experienced it.
But you know it's me reading through all that boys,
seeing the news and growing up, and then you know,
as an adult looking back on this case, you know,
people blamed you guys, you know, for.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
This, right, and as did the police as of the police. Right.
Speaker 6 (09:38):
So I'm wondering if there is a.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Part of this where they want to maintain control of
it because they don't want to be wrong.
Speaker 6 (09:47):
Again, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
It's find an excuse, but like, no, that's very popish, meaning.
Speaker 6 (09:51):
That they're not going to want to They're not going
to strike out twice. Right.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Well, you know, I've I've met recently. They've gone through
several police chiefs, and they've always had poor leadersh In
my opinion, they did bring in well it so, I mean, yeah,
and they very poor leadership. Uh, they brought in someone
from the outside, which is a good thing. About four
years ago I met with her. Uh, she'd been in
(10:17):
that position after a couple of years, and I said, look,
you didn't cause this mess. And I feel badly about
criticizing the Boulder Police, but until I see progress or
something different, I have no other basis to comment someone.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
I got to blame somebody.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
And know you want to do the right things. You
have nothing but praise for me.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
But she did nothing.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
But she did nothing, and then she quit and took
another job, and then the news and.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Didn't tell you, pardon and didn't tell you after.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
She talked to her literally like on a Friday, and
she gave me her cell number. If anything you need
call me Saturday. She was gone, Thank thanks for telling me.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Yeah, that sums up a lot. How many years has
it been now?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
It will be twenty eight in December? Well this year, yeah,
twenty years December.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Twenty eight years later, you're here at Crime con from
a large audience for the second time today.
Speaker 6 (11:20):
What do you want to achieve and accomplish today?
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Well, you know, we've engaged in the media. If when
we were allowed to, our attorneys wouldn't let us talk
to the media. For here.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We did a lot back in the nineties, like just
at first or just at a certain point, because there's.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
We Finally they said okay, they don't defense attorneys want
to lock you in a closet.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And was that annoying, just being like I want to, well, yeah,
say something, but don't say anything.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And they said, look, we don't know how to practice
law in the court of public opinion. Yeah, right, so
we can't go out and defend you in the media.
We don't have to do that. There's no rules, no
laws of evidence anything. We were prepared to defend you
properly in a court.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
So anyway, two years later they gave us the okay,
begretchlingly to do a meetia interview and we actually interviewed, uh,
the interviewers because we only wanted to do one. We
ended up going with Barbara Walters, who was really a fine,
fine person and took very sincere interest in us in
(12:25):
the case. And I just I just really was impressive.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
Actually everything watched that one.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You were trying to pick the best person who wasn't
going to have some gotcha moment work.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And that just somebody that felt we felt comfortable with
and that was interested in you know. Barbara was great.
She took us out for dinner, we sat and talked,
and in fact it was on the interview the O
there are five. Of course, she asked us about the
case and I said, well, there are five things that
were evidentiary that we know of, and uh I told
(13:00):
her what the five were, one of which was a
poem print that was unidentified.
Speaker 6 (13:05):
Where was that a?
Speaker 4 (13:07):
It was on the door into the room where we
found John main A. And Barbara knew the five because
I had told her earlier the night before, and she
asked me on camera and I could remember four of them.
I remember the fifth and she went like this below
the camera and.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
You're like, that's what happens. You're under pressure.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
So she was she was a really a neat person.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
After the police were called and then you know, Boulder
police come into your house.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
Remember that, I mean everything I've read and heard, and
it's even statements made by you and Patthy and everyone else.
It's got a ship showing there like it was.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
How would you describe it, Well, that's a good way
to describe that. Good car rds out of my mouth.
They didn't know they're doing and that that they don't
have to They don't have to deal with that every day.
Back then they did like what.
Speaker 6 (14:04):
Were they doing, Well.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
They were making coffee and wiping up the county, right.
Speaker 7 (14:10):
There were seventeen people that were friends of the of
the ramsay. All the cops had gone except for one at.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
What point in the morning?
Speaker 7 (14:21):
Okay, so and her body was found at one o'clock
not yeah, not before that there was.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
I guess well. You know the chief of police later
was criticized for how they handled the crimes scene. He said, oh,
we thought it was a kidnapping. We didn't consider it
a crime scene.
Speaker 6 (14:37):
Well, I mean it's like, okay, well, okay, you were
the whole house.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
But that was the level of competence we're doing. And
I think what really kicked it off.
Speaker 6 (14:51):
Was the.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Lady detective there, who later went on national TV and said, oh,
I knew John was killed because they saw his eyes.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
This is a bull her police.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, she saw, and she grabbed her we could put
to use.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
She grabbed her gun because she was afraid.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
He left short work. I mean she wasn't. But she
wrote up a report and described some actions she saw
that she observed us doing, one of which was John
was casually going through the mail while he's waiting for
the call from the kidnapper. I was looking for another
communication from the kidnapper and this pile of envelopes that
(15:29):
had come through our front door.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
And what he's supposed to do is sit there and
stare at the wall, said, but I was looking.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
For another Is there another communication that it was sent
to us? Yes?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
It was.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
It was a ransom, right, I mean at.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
That yeah, we had the ransom. Mel But I saw
this pile of envelopes that had come through our dorse
mail spot and I was going through. Was there anything
else in there? She interpreted, I was just casually going through.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
The bizarre bi of hers.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Yeah. And then the other one was the note said
we would be called at ten o'clock tomorrow. Well, I
didn't know tomorrow was the day we were in or
was it tomorrow the next day? And so when ten
o'clock came that day, I was well, okay, I gotta
wait till tomorrow. I was going to be excruciating. But
that's the way it is. She said in a report,
(16:15):
was very bizarre that John didn't go crazy when ten
o'clock came and you get the call. Well, I wasn't
necessarily expecting it that day.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
Because you were thinking, well, maybe tomorrow then, you.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Know, I said tomorrow. I didn't know if tomorrow was
the day we're in, or you know, was it tomorrow.
So she reported that, well, I just didn't act right
when when ten o'clock came and went. So anybody reading
that report would say, well, yeah, that that's a very
strange action acts.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
They started taking these little plucking these little things out
and kind of making misinterpreted pictures, was reported.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
And so the whole police case, we were told by
the DA several years later, was that we didn't act
right that morning.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
How does how is one supposed to act?
Speaker 4 (16:57):
Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't yeah,
you know, I'd lost my oldest daughter, Beth in a
car accident. And I gotten a call from my brother
in the afternoon that Beth was killed in a car accident.
And it was of course devastating, shocking, But there's nothing
I could do. I couldn't couldn't go to her aid,
I couldn't get her to the best doctors. I couldn't
(17:20):
help her. It was over with John Mana that morning.
It wasn't over. She was kidnapped. I was going to
get her back.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
So You're like, where is she bring her back?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Because but I've got to do whatever I can do
to get her back, whatever I can do, And I
assumed the police knew what they were doing. I should
have been more aggressive in what we called friends and
(17:50):
but of course we found out later that the police
didn't know.
Speaker 6 (17:54):
What to do.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
They went to the sheriff's office and got a book
on how to deal with kidnappings. But that morning I
had to keep my head and be on my game
and get my daughter back. Yeah, we arranged for the
ransom money. A friend of mine was my banker, and
(18:16):
he got me a credit limit on my visa card
of one hundred and twenty thousand dollars, so I can, wow,
get the cash.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
What's it like making a call like that?
Speaker 6 (18:24):
Is he like?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
What that sounds?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Well, he was a very close friend. He immediately flew out,
one of the first persons that came out to my
Boulder to help. And I remember questioning the detective that
was there, so, how many people are on this case
right now? He said, well, we're all on vacation and
it's just me and and he said, oh, that's not right.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
He was he's a real.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
You know shoo, yeah, a really aggressive guy anyway, But
so we had their ransom money teed up and just
trying to my witch about me.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
So there's so many things about this case that I mean,
I think obviously Boulder police screwed this case up because
they didn't solve it. That's just plain and simple. And
you know, you've been able to point out plenty of
examples of incompetence and things that even you know are
seemingly beyond that. And so I see all this stuff.
(19:23):
I see all these circumstances and scenarios, theories. I see
this DNA DNA here, DNA.
Speaker 6 (19:30):
There, and it's just it's so much going on.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, and so in my head as an investigator journalist,
I always go back to the ransom note because I
feel like, no matter what we end up finding, it
has that has to end up explaining the ransom note,
or that explains the ransom note. And I'm just curious
(19:54):
for you, like, how many times have you read that note?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Well, of course you read it that morning, of course.
And we had to write it, like the handwriting Samples
wrote with the right hand, wrote over their left hand, which.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Is painful, bizarre, it's horrible.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I have to write that horrible note early on, and
this was in days of job and as loss.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
What do you think when you read that?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Like, I mean, like it.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
Was just shocking.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
I mean, uh, you don't. I mean it's a horrible feeling.
It's like and I tell peoples like when you have
a young child, you're in a supermarket or shopping center
and they're gone, all of a sudden, they've disappeared behind
a colt rack or something. It's this horrible feeling or stomach,
where's my child? And you know that happened, lasts for
(20:43):
a moment, and then your child comes out from behind
hiding and the colt rack or something, and thank god,
that's the feeling we had that morning. It was and
it was constant, and you know, where's my child? It's
cold outside, it's dark, and I for part of the morning.
We'll get her back. We're going to get her back.
(21:05):
And we were supposed to go on a family trip
that morning to meet my older kids, and that was
of course canceled or put off. But I ken't think
we're going to make that. Then I finally said, no,
we're not going to make it. Be realistic here. Yeah,
but we're still hopeful. But I was getting discouraged obviously
(21:28):
the more time went on.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And for the sake of just context for you guys,
since we didn't have a screen for this setup that
would work, I posted on my Instagram story like a
typed out version like this legible of the ransom note
(21:49):
that I may refer to some things on so if
you want to look out of yourself and follow along,
you can. That's the only thing on my story right now.
Just go to at Payne, Lindsay and me. It's small,
but you can see what I'm talking about. Because I
don't think y'all can read this, but I'm just thinking
about the note and it says mister Ramsey listening carefully,
(22:13):
and then and further down it mentions you know your name,
so they this person is addressing you John Ramsey, right,
meaning that they knew who you are. Now there's you know,
presumably several ways that they could find that out.
Speaker 6 (22:29):
But what does that tell you? Because it's addressed to
you and you're like, okay, who is this?
Speaker 4 (22:35):
You know you don't think about that at the moment.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
Surely, right, But twenty years later you're like.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Okay, yeah, well you know, we got to know John Douglas,
who's here.
Speaker 6 (22:45):
The real mind hunter?
Speaker 7 (22:46):
Right?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Guy's awesome?
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Yeah, profileer really amazing fellow. But he looked at everything
and said he told us two things when he said,
if you and he came to Atlanta to our home
for a few days, uh he And he said after
he had visited us, he said, if you can act
(23:10):
the way you act now and had done this, you're
the most diabolical criminals that ever walked the planet.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
He's like, then you're a real good way a lot
of people.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
But he also said, I think this was aimed at you, John.
Somebody is either extremely angry with you or extremely jealous.
And I said, oh, man, I can't imagine I've made
anybody angry like that.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
Is that what you think it was?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I subscribe to that theory, I do.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So you need to get somebody that knew you, and
you meaning that you knew that.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
He said, this wasn't about your daughter, This was focused
at you to hurt you. And yes, yeah, and I
think he's right.
Speaker 6 (23:51):
Do you think that you would in turn also know
this person?
Speaker 4 (23:54):
But well, he said you may not. You may not
know him. You know, we've been putting the paper that
a couple of weeks before we'd achieved a sales goal,
and our marketing person wanted to put it in the papers.
I okay, and that was what it was in the
paper with my picture probably really bad. I had a
bad gut feeling when she wanted to do that. Oh yes,
(24:16):
I don't think we need to do that, but I thought, well,
their employees should be proud of their achievements, and so
we did it. That was not a good thing to do.
My focus some jealousy or anger at me, I don't know,
but I think I really do subscribe to that based
on the.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Note that there was somebody who knew you, yeah, and
someone that you probably it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
May know, but they may very angry, were very jealous
of me, and this was to hurt me. Lou Smidt,
the experienced detective that worked on this case, you know,
wonderful man, said, well, this is a kidnapping gone wrong.
And I always thought there were conflicting theories.
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Is that how you feel about it?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
That the attempt truly was supposed to be a kidnapping
and then that went wrong.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
That's what Lou felt. He said, Look, what do you feel? Well,
I think, well, I always thought those are conflicting theories.
They are a little bit right, like point, well, they're
really not.
Speaker 6 (25:14):
Because so in your gut though, like well, I.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Was comforted by realizing that those are not conflicting theories.
They could be they could be together together. Somebody was
angry in what way you mean? Well, it could be
somebody that was angry or jealous of me and then
wanted to kidnap my daughter. Sure that went wrong, and
there's apparently, Lou, where there's indications that that's was an
(25:39):
attempt to get a really attempt at kidnapping. So it's
comforting to think, yeah, these hear, these two world class
people that have different theories. Well, they're really not.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Different kind of they can make a bigger picture tied together.
So do you lean more into the idea that somebody
was out to get you and kidnapped your daughter for
a real rapsom or that it was a sexual predator
of some sort that was random.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
No, I don't think it was random. I think it
was somebody that had been observing us, knew our house.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I wasn't random, like they were planning this out a way.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah. You know the one hundred and eighteen thousand, which
is the amount asked for a ransom, Well that's a bizarre.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Number, isn't that not a million bonus number?
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Close to it?
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Well, it turned out it was my annual bonus which
was on my all of my paycheck stubs, so for
a year, every two weeks, And we weren't careful with
where we laid those.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So how could someone have like you say that someone
could have got that from the trash or something, or like,
how could one.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Well say, if they'd been in our house and gone
through our house, they'd have seen it.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Like even when they were in the house that night,
you mean potentially or.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Potentially Yeah, I mean, we weren't careful with papers and
stuff like.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, right, it could be found.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Right, they weren't. They weren't somebody that worked.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Somebody wanted I just wandered around.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Yeah, And that's to me the most logical explanation of
what that number was. It it had some meeting to
the killer, right, some message.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Because it's too It's just means it makes a great,
big number that's available as a ransom.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Right, I mean, why not a million they don't want?
Speaker 6 (27:28):
Yeah, this means I know, joll could get this to me.
So they clearly had that.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
I mean, I was head of this company and our
sales had achieved a billion dollars, which in are we
were like a grocery store. You got to sell a
lot of stuff to make a little money. And so
we were still small in our niche of the industry,
but we were proud of that. And and but I
was an employee. I was lockheeded about the company years ago.
(27:53):
And I was a Lockheed employee. I wasn't it millionaire
you worked for?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, yeah, my dad retired.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
Was a great company, great five years.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, they really treated us wonderful when this happened. But
it was just it was a barner. Somebody pointed out too.
In fact, our minister that said, okay, well one eighteen
is the middle the middle. Uh, right in the middle
of the Bible.
Speaker 6 (28:19):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Well, I don't know, but how many pages like that's well,
it's right in the middle Bible. And in the Psalm
it has a phrase that says, uh saved by the
Cornerstone SPTC.
Speaker 6 (28:36):
Okay, that's that's.
Speaker 7 (28:40):
There.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
Says yeah, well this BTC.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Well nobody, what.
Speaker 6 (28:44):
Does this acronym mean?
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Right?
Speaker 6 (28:46):
Does it mean anything? Or is it well that.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
We're made some sense? Well, okay, maybe this was a
bizarre way to.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Show this that that makes it sound like super calculated, right, yeah, no.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
It was question.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And so my question then becomes, which is why this
case is so frustrating, is that if it was a
very calculated kidnapper killer or kidnapping gone wrong that's cased
the house and got all this information, why on earth
did they spend twenty minutes writing that note in the
(29:21):
house when they could have just came with that note ready.
Speaker 7 (29:24):
Because they because they did not necessarily write it in
the house.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
There were several tablets that Patsy used.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Uh huh.
Speaker 7 (29:31):
It was written on one of the tablets. It could
have been taken out of the house. She never would
have known it, and he could have written it them.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
So you're you're saying that it's possible that this person
took this out of the house the.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Tablet, wrote it and brought it back in.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
Well, I think what reason, though, Why would they do that?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Take their time when we were told My feeling is
this person was in the house when we left to
go out for dinner. Okay, it was hiding when we
got home. Interesting, in that three hours, sat and wrote
a note. Interesting, we were told again I think by
John Douglas that because the police speculated when we wrote
(30:14):
the note to cover up.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
Yeah, right, that's that's what people we'll say.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Some people said, even though it's diabolical, criminal could not
have written that note after committee or the two wired
going crazy, I don't know. But he said, yeah, this
was written before, written before, So yeah, and I think
that's right.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, I mean that makes that would make more sense
because if if you killed anybody in the house, I
feel like dancing has to get the hell out of there,
not spend twenty minutes looking for a pen and pad
in the kitchen or whatever. Right, So do you think
that the note was written in the house.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
I believe that.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
But okay, do you think it was written before she
was murdered?
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Yeah? Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (30:59):
And that have been while you were at dinner that
night at the Christmas party, or before the murder happened.
Speaker 4 (31:08):
Oh I think I'm I again subscribe to John Douglas's.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Like he was hanging in there already.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
He was there, he was killing time write in the note.
In fact, there are several practice notes. Apparently your practice.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
Either was something about like an in print or something.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Right, Well, there was a greeting.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Didn't say mister and missus ramsay, and there was John
And so what did I tell you about the psychology
of the person who was writing that note? Why did
they change it from both parents?
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Suggest you?
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Well, again, John Douglas felt it was What do you
think I subscribed to his theory? I think that's that's
quite possible. It's a sobering thing to have to Yeah,
I get stapped, but.
Speaker 6 (32:12):
That night, yeah, the Christmas party.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Just walk me through because I don't Honestly, these parts
are muddy online and I don't want to just go off.
That's from your own recollection. I know it's been forever.
But you're at this Christmas party, you leave, come out
of the house. Just walk me through leaving the party
and then going to sleep.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
That timeline, well, it was we left the our friend's
house with the kids. I think it was like nine
thirty something like that. We were leaving early the next morning.
John and a had fallen asleep in the car and
it was a fairly short drive that she was tired
in all a long, big day and we stopped at
(32:58):
one friend's house and drop off for Christmas present and
then went home. I carried John Benet upstairs.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
She was sound asleep, which which it was a three
story house right.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Well, it was three two stories and then there was
like a attic that had been converted.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Did she sleep on second and you guys slept on
the Yeah, got you, but there you took her. Or
where's the front door at.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
It's it's on the first front, well on the back right, Yeah,
but no, it's it's the way your bedroom house. Birk's
bedroom was in the front of the house. The door
was there, and then John man As was in.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
The back on the same floor as the front door.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
No front door is in the first.
Speaker 6 (33:48):
Floor, okay, And where's her room up or down?
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Up one floor?
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And then where's your.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Room at one more level?
Speaker 6 (33:55):
I got you, okay, so you you take her up
and put it a bed.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
I did well. I put on the bed and Patchy
came in and changed.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
Then you love to go to your room?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yeah okay, Well no, actually didn't. Immediately Burke wanted to
play with his toys. I don't remember what they were,
but just we sat there and slay for we got
it to bed.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
We got to get it loud and yeah, my dad
used to duct tape my toys.
Speaker 6 (34:21):
They would make less noise and hid my pretty cruel.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
So yeah, we played with his toys for just a
few minutes. Now we got to go to bed. So
we got him to bed, and then Patchy and I
went to bed.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Did you go to sleep first or you fall asleep
at the same time?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Oh, I don't remember. Yeah, I don't remember. We were
both tired. I mean, it's been a long Monday.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
But it's also like holidays, exhausting already. Yeah, So tell
me about the first thing you remember when.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
You do wake up?
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Well, I got up and was.
Speaker 6 (34:56):
On your own or was you woken up?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I don't remember. I don't know if we had the
alarm set or not, but anyway, you woke up with
you or no, she was maybe she was out and about.
We had two different bathrooms that we kind of split
just for civility.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And I was more convenient.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Yeah, And so I was shaving and I heard Patsy scream,
and as it was I knew something was wrong. This
is not just I found the ransom note and so
I ran down and and uh, she showed me the note,
but I and I spread it out on the floor
(35:40):
to try to absorb what it was saying three pages,
and pretty immediately said she was standing by the phone
to call police, call the police. And so she picked
up the phone and called the police. And uh, of
course the police. You're a man, you should have called
the police. Why why did you ask your wife to
do that? That's I don't know. She was standing by
(36:01):
the phone and I was trying to read the ransom note.
But anyway, she called the police and then they came
fairly quickly, and the police officer came was just a
patrol man that was on duty. And so do you
think she ran away? And I said no, she was
a six year old child. She wouldn't have run away,
(36:23):
and I showed him the ransom note. Then he called in.
I guess that's when Linda aren't showed up. The one
detective that was on duty that morning, because everybody else
is Christmas. Yeah. I was told that one of the
(36:44):
police officers was there that morning. They were several for
a while. Asked the chief of detectives, and this was heresay.
I don't know if it's you may know more than
I do. Paul is very plugged in as an investigative journalist.
I was told that one of the police officers called
the chief of detection, I think there's evidence of an intruder.
(37:05):
Could I get dogs to the crime scene? He said, no,
don't do that.
Speaker 6 (37:11):
Well, that was a missed opportunity.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
That well, that really was true. It was a huge
missed opportunity.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
So running with the theory that it was someone who
knew enough about you, who could be a stranger, but
cased the house and just learned enough about you to
know your name, know you had a daughter, and know
you had an amount of money that's pretty damn close
to what you were making in that bonus.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Right, right, So we're.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Going with that, and they wrote the note, and they
wrote the note first, right, and then they go down
to kidnap John Bennet and somehow that goes wrong? Is
that what we're thinking? I think in that series of events?
Is that what you would say maybe? Or what happened?
Speaker 6 (38:02):
And why would they move her body to some other
r Yeah?
Speaker 4 (38:05):
That's well, that's honest.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
You just want to just your thoughts because like I
can't make sense of it either.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Oh, it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 6 (38:12):
Yeah, but like the fact your brain on this for
was obviously crazy. Why would they do that? Why not
just get out of there?
Speaker 4 (38:19):
I don't know, you know what I mean? She was
I'm told, sadly sexually assaulted, and so that doesn't really
fit the kidnapping.
Speaker 6 (38:36):
That's what. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So it's like some things going don't go and I
don't know even you, Paul, like what do you make
of sort of the conflicting evidence and maybe some evidence
I'm talking about doesn't mean anything, and like we're overthinking it.
Speaker 6 (38:50):
But that doesn't jib all the time, right, The killer.
Speaker 7 (38:54):
Doesn't make sense, The police actions don't make sense, nothing
is logical, nothing makes sense about.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
This, But they were but the killer was smart enough to.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Get in and out of there and not get caught
know who you were, and you do not know who
who he was, and he hasn't been he or she
has not been caught till today.
Speaker 6 (39:17):
So maybe that's complete.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Dumb luck so or but I don't know if that's
necessarily true.
Speaker 6 (39:24):
Is it like a is it a.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Dumb person that got lucky or is it a calculated killer?
Speaker 6 (39:29):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (39:30):
I think it was calculated for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
And then therefore why move her body from her room
to what.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Was it like a cellar basement? Yes?
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Like why even waste the time?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Why not get out of there because it was hard
to get out in the first place, to that little window?
Speaker 6 (39:47):
Right? Like, what what do you think about that part
of it?
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Well, I don't know. I mean one of the things
that came up early on was there were two marks
on her in two different locations which were speculated to
be stun gun marks.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
Where were those?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Well, one was on her cheek and one was lower
back or back?
Speaker 6 (40:09):
And uh, do you suspect that may have been used?
Speaker 4 (40:13):
And well, we lou Smidt did some testing on a
pig stun gun and he said, sure are identical. And
he got in trouble with peta of course.
Speaker 6 (40:28):
But well you don't shut the tall, don't sweet about it.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Yeah, yeah, But anyway, but he said, when we did that,
at first there it didn't surface it. He thought, man,
this wasn't right. And then these marks came just came
to light.
Speaker 6 (40:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
He said, bingo, that's exactly the same. So he was
convinced the stun gun was us. This doctor Dilberson, who
was a forensic pathologist in Colorado Springs, happened to be
an expert in sun gun marks. Wow for some very
niche yeah, and he looked at it. We went to
(41:08):
him and said what do you think? Yeah, and he
looked at it and studied and said, with ninety nine
percent medical certainty, these are gun he was he was, yeah,
he was convinced for medical certainty these are sun marks.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Now that's probably likely.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
I was asked by our attorneys, would you allow us
to exume John may and A's body to absolutely one
per verify those stun gun marks. Studies couldn't do it.
Speaker 6 (41:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
John Maya was at rest, he was at peace.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
When did they ask you that?
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Oh it was within months. Okay, you know this because
the stunt gun became very interesting because.
Speaker 6 (41:48):
Yeah, and they would need Yeah, yeah, you weren't of
course reading her.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
Why in the world do we use a stunt gun. Yeah,
it's just I mean, their whole theory just fell apart immediately.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
I mean, the thing is like is like items, and
there's there's DNA and quite a bit of it, to
be honest, it seems like, well there's an under nails
and on clothing, right, and it hasn't matched anybody that
we know of yet. So do you think that one
(42:21):
of those DNA samples is.
Speaker 6 (42:25):
The killer lou does?
Speaker 4 (42:26):
I asked, do you think that though? Do I I
don't know enough about DNA, but like.
Speaker 6 (42:30):
But presumably if they're on her body.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Well, yeah, I mean it's you know, when it was
it was discovery, it was immediately, it was immediately reported
in early January by the lab that did the testing originally,
I mean, yeah, yeah, ninety seven. Back to the police,
we've we've identified this DNA sample unidentified male DNA does
(42:56):
not match anyone in the family, you guys yet, John
and Berkricks included. And that was a big problem for
the police because.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
They didn't like that because their theories now kind of.
Speaker 4 (43:06):
Their theories so they kept a secret, so they tried
very hard for a long time to explain it away
and find a hannocent explanation.
Speaker 7 (43:16):
It was a.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Friend of John Benney's that was over there than the
night before or the day before. You know, I've got
a DNA or under our clothes. He couldn't. I mean,
it was they failed it trying to explain it away.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Would Why do you think that there was no DNA
or fingerprints on the note?
Speaker 4 (43:37):
If that was, I don't think it was ever checked.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
It wasn't. The note was never checked for DNA.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
I mean example, for the police, it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (43:45):
I mean I read that. I mean Patsy's were on
their because you picked up and found it.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
Oh yeah, we we like as well.
Speaker 6 (43:51):
Whether there was no DNA on the note, we don't know.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
It was never looked for.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Oh, never tested for DNA?
Speaker 6 (43:57):
Who didn't never test?
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Older police? Okay, did not have it tested.
Speaker 6 (44:02):
Do they still have it?
Speaker 7 (44:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Well, to me, that would be the biggest thing to
harp on is test the note because there's DNA on
her person, right, and if we're running with the theory
that obviously it makes more sense for an intruder to
write the note. First, it makes no sense that they
would write that with gloves then take off the gloves.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
So right, there was lots of things it should have
been looked at for evidence.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Well, yeah, all going back to you name, it just missteps.
Speaker 7 (44:34):
And we put together a list of crime scene evidence
that had not been tested and we found sixteen items.
So John gave that to the governor. The governor gave
that to Boulder Police, who did not have a list
of crime scene evidence that had not been tested for DNA,
and they haven't done anything with it.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
They have not said.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Allow why they wouldn't have tested the note because it
seemed like they were so hard out to get you
guys in the first place, making you right samples left, right,
left hand, right end. That's going to be exhausting and
annoying and frustrating. Wouldn't they just test it and put
it to rest? If it's somehow I don't know, like.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
You know, I can't explain the action because that's odd.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's almost contradictory behavior, which is so annoying.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
What if they didn't want to know?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Right, but like that'd be so early on to want
I mean, why would they want it to be you
that early in the stages. Had they already like said
enough publicly that they wanted to cover their ass or what?
Speaker 7 (45:41):
When the word came in to the meeting outside of
the Ramsay home that jo Many's body had been found,
somebody in the meeting told me that one detective said
to another detective, not homicide detectives, narcotic detectives who did
not have the training. One of them said to the other,
I knew what they killed her. So they decided that soon.
(46:04):
They decided immediately that it was a Ramsay so they
set out to prove it.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
It's that diamolical, really, you know.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
I And to this day I don't know who it was.
But I'd gotten an urgent message through our friends that
were house we were staying at. You're one of your
fellows you worked with, needed to talk to you immediately.
Speaker 6 (46:28):
When was this this.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Friday? That Friday?
Speaker 4 (46:34):
Was that the twenty sixth, twenty like.
Speaker 6 (46:37):
It could be potentially important. So what happened?
Speaker 4 (46:39):
Well, so I took the call, and I was not
in any shape to take a call.
Speaker 6 (46:44):
I can't imagine.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yeah, yeah, but I talked. He was a guy that
worked with me, and I was a friend, and he said,
I was called by someone inside the system and told
to get you this message. And the message is tell
John to get the best defense attorney he can get
his hands on me because they think he killed his daughter.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Talk about like where you worked.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Yes, it's inside the system. I assumed he was.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Talking about you. So the system for the police tipped
you off like they're going to come for.
Speaker 4 (47:16):
You, right, and so I I that was like shocking,
But at that point it didn't matter whatever. And so
that was the day after that they already had concluded.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
They were quick to jump to that concluded.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
Before evidence was immediately they also called in the group
that was skilled in preparing a case to present to
a jury. Yes you know, yeahah with the picture and
the triagrams and stuff. And they went and they told
us this. Later, they said, the police call us and
said I want you to prepare for case to go
(47:55):
to court, present this, and so tell us what the
other and it says, well, we can't. We're not going
to discuss that. And they said we can't prepare a
presentation if you don't tell us the evidence. And they left.
They said we could deal with that, but say, we're
so convinced that the next day, literally that day. Probably
(48:17):
that it was the parents, always parents. The problem with that,
you know, I've researched it a little bit, and sadly,
fifty six percent of the time in our country, the
homicide of a child is a parent. However, you got
to cut at one more level. In virtually all those cases,
(48:39):
there's a long history of problems in that family. The
neighbors know about it, the police know about it, the
schools know about it. It doesn't just happen out of
the blue.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
That was not happening in the Ramsay house, No.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
Not at all. We had. In fact, our pediatrician was testified,
he said, and we were criticized for taking John Benet
to the doctor a lot. She had allergies and stuff,
and you know, we have good health plan. If you're sick,
we go to the doctor, real simple, right, And so
we knew him pretty well. And he said, I never
saw anything but a loving family.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
Why why don't you think that the the killer took
went back upstairs and took the note back if it
was a botched kidnapping it because when the killer left,
it clearly was no longer kidnapping, because that that that
there was there wasn't a kid that boy, So why
not just take that note away?
Speaker 3 (49:34):
Panic?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
But they spent a long time writing it, and there
potentially they've been in the house for a while. Why
not just take it one of the doors. It's like,
you know, I'm not John Douglas. You know, he's he's
the best at this, But I try to put myself
and try to analyze the psychology of a person who
would do this, and you know, it's it's when I
(49:58):
found it's if not, it's one of the longest ransom
notes in history, which is like, I don't even know
what that means.
Speaker 4 (50:06):
And I was told if we get a sample of
a writing, we got so much compared against we can
say who wrote the note.
Speaker 6 (50:16):
It's it's just so much information and there was no
kidnapping at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
No, you're right, So what does that tell you?
Speaker 4 (50:25):
Guys, Well, it doesn't tell me anything. This is a
very you know, lack of a better word, subhuman person
like just I.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Mean just I mean obviously they're really about Yes, I mean.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
I think I crazy, but smart, Well yeah, those aren't exclusive,
but so smart.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Because they were in there dinking around. I feel like
for a long time. Yeah, that's pretty stupid, I feel like.
Speaker 7 (51:00):
But not if you had the incompetence of the investigators,
this should have been solved the first week.
Speaker 6 (51:05):
Oh, you absolutely should have.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
Yes, you know, there's a door in the basement a
little This house had an elevator and at one time
the people we bought it from were elderly and they
needed an elevator, and then they put this one person
elevator that took about thirty minutes to get up, right,
you know, and we wanted it.
Speaker 6 (51:24):
Out like this is convenience.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
Was right in the middle of the house and we
didn't need it, and so we.
Speaker 6 (51:30):
Gave it in the basement areas as well.
Speaker 4 (51:32):
We went from the basement to is that where.
Speaker 6 (51:34):
She was ultimately found?
Speaker 4 (51:35):
Yes, and how far is that.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
From her room? It's down two flights, so they would
have taken her down two flights of stairs. Yeah, but
that's also to me totally bizarre.
Speaker 6 (51:50):
They're just going up and down writing notes.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
And also they still got away with it, So I
guess it didn't matter in the end, but not the
brain of a really really smart killer.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
Well whoever did this has a very mixed up brain.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Right, worried that there's things going on both ends here
and it's it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Later there was a assault of a child, ye, a
few blocks away from us. That child and John Bay
were in the same dance class, and I think the
method of operation of the person was identical to ours.
(52:33):
Is this after yeah, nine months.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Later and this was it was it? This is an
intruder in a house scenario.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
And I believe they came into the house when the
parents parents were gone, because they came home and set
the burger alarm and then went to bed. And the
mother heard a noise and went to her daughter's room
and found this person.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Like a like a man in there, had a I
think she had a like in the girl's room or like.
Speaker 6 (53:03):
Yeah, the girl in molesting that close to the crime.
Speaker 4 (53:07):
Yeah, and he got to wait out of there. He
got out of there, and the police said and we
it was like Scott, this ought to be looked at
as the same person because of his technique was the same.
I felt as to the father of the other the
next girl, where's.
Speaker 6 (53:27):
The ransom note?
Speaker 1 (53:29):
I don't know, right, I mean, if it was the
same killer, he would have written the ransom note point first.
Speaker 4 (53:35):
Right, Yeah, at the point you know, I don't think
you can.
Speaker 6 (53:39):
I mean, it's just evaluate frustrating that.
Speaker 4 (53:42):
So why do so many murder ten people?
Speaker 6 (53:44):
I know, it's sorry, but.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Just like I don't know, like does there have to
be a good reason, because killing somebody is insane anyways?
Speaker 4 (53:52):
Right, Yeah, they're insane. And you know, we would get
notes letters from people that had the answer, and we'd
read them and they're obviously bizarre and wacko, but we'd
pay attention to them. Yes, whoever knew this person was
also wacko. You don't hang around with people like that
(54:12):
if you're normal.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
So the ransom note one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars,
and you know, that's a pretty close match to the bonus,
So it's I would surmise that they were able to
get that information somehow.
Speaker 4 (54:26):
Right they have, that's my feeling.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
If you don't, if this is not a weird question,
how much money did you actually make and how much
money did you actually have?
Speaker 4 (54:35):
Well, you know, we we had.
Speaker 6 (54:38):
Could they have shot higher?
Speaker 4 (54:39):
Pardon?
Speaker 6 (54:40):
Could they have shot hire? Why not?
Speaker 4 (54:42):
Well, sure they could have. And we you know, I
was president of this company that had grown really rapidly.
It was a billion dollar company. Well, then I must
be a billionaire.
Speaker 6 (54:50):
Well that when I asked for a million dollars, Sure,
but I wasn't.
Speaker 4 (54:54):
We did, we had more money than I ever thought
i'd have, you know RD, but we weren't by any
stretch wildly wealthy.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
But yeah, but then that person would have to know
that too specifically, which means that they would be even
closer to you, not just from like No.
Speaker 4 (55:11):
One eighteen had a meeting to the.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Killer did because like it's too specific.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
It was a message, pardon a message?
Speaker 6 (55:18):
Okay, what do you mean?
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Well? Was it a biblical message?
Speaker 6 (55:21):
But it's biblical? But also the being out of the bonus.
Speaker 4 (55:25):
That, yeah, that could have been a message as you
didn't deserve this.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
I don't know that biblical message?
Speaker 6 (55:31):
What what is it actually?
Speaker 4 (55:33):
Well, in the in the Psalm and I can't recite it,
but one of the sentences is saved by the cornerstone.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (55:41):
S BTC?
Speaker 1 (55:43):
What is saved by the cornerstone means?
Speaker 4 (55:46):
Uh, now you're testing my I I don't have to know, well,
you know, I got to have to go back and
read it to really uh the cornerstone, this cornerstone was
I don't know what this is good. I should ask
my wife, she's a biblical scholar.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
We'll probably tell us after Okay, yeah, okay, okay. Either way,
it's like, once again, maybe something that just doesn't match
here is a match there, and that gets me to
this spot of I feel like the note is a distraction.
(56:28):
I feel like, no matter what, it's just a side show.
Clearly they had to know all this information.
Speaker 4 (56:36):
But like.
Speaker 6 (56:38):
They got away with this, but they failed the kidnapping.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
They failed on that right, and they spent so much
time in there and could have got caught, didn't get caught.
And so I feel like all of the details in there,
like why do not you say this much money tomorrow?
What is all this other stuff? Why don't even spend
that much time writing it? Get the hell out of there?
Speaker 5 (57:03):
Right?
Speaker 6 (57:03):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (57:04):
Wouldn't you like to talk to the killer and find
out me too.
Speaker 4 (57:07):
Badly of any sense, including the murder of a child.
Speaker 6 (57:12):
That's just I mean, what is the motives still out there?
Speaker 3 (57:17):
I do, and I think that he'll be caught.
Speaker 4 (57:21):
Risen or loose, no question.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Do you think that this murder of your daughter, John
and it will ever be solved?
Speaker 4 (57:34):
Smidt now what do you think. What do I think?
Speaker 6 (57:38):
Well, please say yes, well.
Speaker 4 (57:40):
Yes it will be someday, it may not be in
my lifetime, but.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
What what will it take?
Speaker 4 (57:47):
Then you think, I think DNA technology is about so
much and will continue to evolve.
Speaker 6 (57:53):
So much that.
Speaker 4 (57:56):
Properly UH looked for that solved the case.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
You give that a better thorough, actual test, more definitive answers.
My fear is that we get the like, hopefully that happens,
that should happen, and we should all be rooting for
that to happen. When that happens, I'm fearful that it
comes to be like, oh it's a factory worker, or
how many cops were in there that day and there
(58:23):
was no protocol at night.
Speaker 6 (58:24):
Well they had tried in the you know, so like
is it just completely random? And then it's like okay, now.
Speaker 4 (58:34):
What Well, you know the sample that was got taken
and recovered in nineteen ninety seven, that technology was much less.
Speaker 6 (58:46):
Where it is today.
Speaker 4 (58:48):
And so the DA that took over the that office
after the DA that was in power at the time
this happened, UH took the case away to the police.
Now it was it was not positioned that way. I
was like, well, we want to have other lives looking,
she took it away from it. I'm convinced, set up
(59:08):
her own investigative team, did some more DNA sampling, and
now she did that in two thousand and six, I think,
and technology was a lot further old. Today we're just
light years past that and that every well, now our
years were getting well past two thousand and six technology.
But so she did more testing in two thousand and
(59:29):
six eight found more DNA that was compatible with the
DNA that was found in nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 6 (59:35):
Okay sonking in different parts.
Speaker 4 (59:37):
Of the scene on the clothing, I guess, and concluded
that that's enough evidence to show there was an intruder.
Speaker 6 (59:46):
And so she wrote us a letter intruder or that
it just DNA matches itself. What like, how does that
prove that there was an intruder?
Speaker 4 (59:57):
It was anubted by person. That DNA was left on
different parts from John Byn's clothing.
Speaker 6 (01:00:04):
Yes, and body.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah, I'm saying that is it possible that that also
could have been from all those different cops who were
walking around in.
Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
There, and they've tested, they were checked.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
The cops police try to explain the police got they
got DNA to swaps from me.
Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
They went to all of our friends, all of our
French kids, to.
Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
The police specifically, and I feel like there would be
so tight lip about that and not want to do that.
Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
You know, Oh the police had We were told the
police that were involved in this early on they had
more each had an attorney. They had more attorneys than
we did.
Speaker 6 (01:00:38):
So either way, this this all leads to DNA.
Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
We don't have enough information and if Boulder Police is
holding on to this, they need to fucking let go
of it and let grows come in and do it.
And I'm all for you.
Speaker 6 (01:00:51):
What do you think? What do you want the audience
to take away throughout the time now from this? And
what can we do to push the ball forward, because
I personally want to I know that they all do.
Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
You know that I learned a lot recently. There was
an act passed at the federal level, Homicide Victims Family
Rights Act, And basically that gives the family rights you
a homicide case like ours, we had no rights to
(01:01:24):
when the police weren't performing, we could just beg them.
Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
To perform, but this would give you control of the DNA.
Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
But well, the Act, if implemented at the state level,
would give us the power to say, we want change.
We want this case to be taken away from the police,
we want a different agency to look at.
Speaker 6 (01:01:47):
It, empowering the power, empowering the parents of that who's
children something.
Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
And but murder is a state crime. So that and
that's one of the fundamental problems with our system in
my opinion.
Speaker 6 (01:02:03):
You said you want to be a federal crime.
Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
Well, I was going down that track. I thought, let's
make the burner of a child a federal offense. We
ought to as a country imagine that it's not. But yes,
it's not right. And I was told by knowledge of
people that would be a very difficult law to get enacted.
There's a lot of problems with jurisdiction and state lines
and all that stuff. But I was became acquainted with
(01:02:27):
this Rights Act Family Rights Act that was enacted at
the federal level. There's now an effort to make it
a state law in every state. It's right now in
five states, I think, and it's pretty easy for him
to adopt it. It's like a boiler plate law. They
can just though, is this is like where you know,
(01:02:48):
so that would have fixed a lot of our problem
and that we could have demanded under law help and
become that we could get help involved.
Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
My last question to you is what can I do
to find this motherfucker?
Speaker 4 (01:03:07):
Well?
Speaker 6 (01:03:07):
Kill?
Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Yeah, well just give disappoint me in a direction, please anywhere.
Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Go after Governor Polus, who has the right take.
Speaker 4 (01:03:19):
Yeah, well the step but not taken the first step
that could be taken. That's what we've been asking for
for a long time, is the police ought to give
need to give the crime scene evidence to the custody
there and.
Speaker 6 (01:03:34):
To them to get off their ass to do something.
The CBI. Well, they just got there, and.
Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
We want the FBI to have custody the crime scene evidence.
Give them. It's called custodian rightness. I think, all right,
and I think they would then do with it what
it should should be done with it. Very simple act
to do. If they haven't lost the evidence, if they have,
in order.
Speaker 6 (01:03:59):
Will find out there's another egg on their face, and
then we'll.
Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Go from there, right yeah, yep, yeah, Well, thank you
so much.
Speaker 6 (01:04:04):
Today I know that.
Speaker 8 (01:04:05):
They're talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV
and iHeart podcast, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay for
tenderfoot TV. Executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright.
(01:04:28):
Co Executive producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, Executive
producers are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music
by Makeup and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney,
Dylan Harrington, Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo.
Production support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young.
(01:04:50):
Mixing and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our
cover art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our
website Talking to Death Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.
This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you
want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe
to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus
dot com
Host
Payne Lindsey
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