April 17, 2024 • 28 mins
Mike Bender joins the podcast today to share his journey from collegiate golfer to top teaching pro! Mike and Chris discuss the changes in the golf industry over time and how to cut through the noise to find the right instructor.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Golf Fitness Bomb Squad podcast with Chris Finn,
a production of P for U S Golf. Welcome to
the Golf Fitness Bomb Squad. I'm your host, Chris Finn,
and I'm here with one of the legends of the
game when it comes to instruction. Actually, Golf Dies calls
him on one of America's top three best teachers. So
(00:21):
if you have been living under a rock, the man
doesn't really need an intro. But Mike Bender is here
as my guest today. We are very lucky to have him.
He has coached a ridiculous number of great players, masters, champions,
amazing amateurs. I mean, we'd be here for the entire
podcast and be listening everybody, But Mike, I can't thank
(00:43):
you enough for being here with us today. Thank you
so much. It's a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, it's great to be on. Thanks for asking.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, definitely, Mike.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I think one of the things that I was always
and this is a total selfish question on my part,
is I always love hearing how great instructors. How did
you get into teaching? Obviously you were a great player collegiately, uh,
you know, multiple time All American Champion, How did you
kind of make the move into you know, into into
(01:14):
the coaching and instructional space you played on tour? Obviously?
What kind of what kind of drew you to this space?
And then what's what's the journey been like getting to
where you are now?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well? I think, you know, one of the things is
is that when I grew up, there wasn't a lot
of instruction. There wasn't a lot of so called teachers
that were just specialists like there is today, and so,
you know, so basically, I mean, without making this too
long a story, in my effort to get on the
PGA tour, I went to see some really top name
(01:49):
or top teachers, but back in those days, they weren't
really top teachers. I mean, Ledbetter was just becoming known,
and so I saw him, I saw Ben Doyle, which
he taught Bobby Clampett and the Golfee machine, you know. So,
so I was around some of these great teachers of
the of their time and they were becoming well known.
But I needed to work on my own golf swing.
(02:11):
So what I would do, though, is after my lesson,
I'd sit around and watch them teach and I'd learn
more about the golf sweling in general. I'd learned more
about the concepts and the physics behind the golf sweling
and things like this, So it really helped me to be,
you know, kind of formulate for my real career. I
always say my playing career was a pre load up
(02:31):
from my real career, which is teaching the game, you know,
So so just that I always want I've always been
really infatuated with how things work, whether it be a
go kart engine, a television or whatever. So I always
wanted to find out how things work. And I think
that kind of mindset makes a good teacher, not necessarily
the best player. You know. Probably my playing career wasn't
(02:54):
was more on the mechanical side than maybe it needed
to be. But but you know, but I it was
all good training for me being able to then later
on work with you know, top players and top amateurs
and having a really good foundation for how the swing works.
And like I said, I think the physics behind it
is very important. Because everybody has an opinion about the
(03:17):
golf swinging, you know, But but when your opinions are
founded and things like that are that are kind of
non negotiable I mean, nobody argues in golf what gravity
is right, or in science, so when you look at
the physics side of it, there's definitely principles of physics
that apply, and if you're in harmony with them, then
you're going to probably be you know, probably pretty good.
(03:37):
But if you're fighting physics, then you know, maybe not
so consistent. So that's kind of how I got into that.
But you know, after I stopped playing, then I just
kind of got into teaching because I was going to
continue to work on my game and try to get
back on tour. But that kind of as teaching got
busier busier, and I had a family going, so it
(03:59):
was just better for me to kind of go down
that avenue and I really enjoyed it. So it's been
it's been. It's been quite a journey.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Though, I bet. And you know, as long as you've
been at it and kind of you've obviously been through
an amazing was like a number of you as a player,
you know, all the way to today, multiple decades of
as the game has evolved and grown to obviously where
it is today where uh, you know, everyone's saying the
ball needs to get shorter. I mean the tire game
has changed. You know, what have been some of the
(04:29):
big I guess more interesting changes that you've you've seen
and how has that impacted instructionally, how you've kind of
taught top players as they've come in each of the generations.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Well, I mean what's interesting is that, you know, the
Tiger Woods effect has been a pretty amazing effect in
terms of you know, back in my day, again, when
I was on a tour, like, there was one trailer
for working out and fitness and it was really only
people that were in there were the people that were injured. Yeah,
nobody's in there, you know, pumping, eat and doing all
(05:00):
the things they do now, because we were all taught
that that's not going to be good for golf, so
you don't want to do that, you know. So, I mean,
the evolution of fitness and the athletic side of golf
has gotten so much better. I mean, these kids today
are tremendous athletes. And not that we not that we
weren't good athletes in the past, but we certainly weren't
(05:20):
as fit or as in shape or spend as much
time in that area, you know, to become as part
of the as part of the solution to being great
at the sport, you know. And then you know, also
like back in my day, I mean the golf ball
and everything, obviously the change I mean, like eighty percent
of the tour hit draws because that would take spin
(05:41):
away and you can hit it further. But now the
balls don't spend, so about eighty percent of the tour
hits a fade off the team now and they hit
the faith as far or farther than they hit the draw.
So there's been some evolution in that type of thing
and in the shape of swings to produce that kind
of ball flight. Since back in our day when we
(06:01):
had to really have a lot of hands, we had
to really hit hooks into the wind and slices into
you know, and work that weall a lot more than
they do today. So it's been pretty interesting from that respect.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And so how have you seen that impact you know,
physically what is required or has there been no change
of what's physically the body needs to be able to
do to be successful at those the highest of high levels.
You know, I'm assuming obviously this equipment changes, you know,
launch conditions and different ways. There's going to be more
(06:34):
or maybe not more but different variables that are going
to be potentially more important, you know, as the equipment
has changed, as they and as the athletes have changed. So, Mike,
as you've seen the the changes, you know, as the
equipment's changed, and you know quick what you were saying,
where nowadays people are hitting more fades because the ball
doesn't spend as much in the old days you had
to be maybe use the hands a little bit more.
What have you seen in terms of, like as the
(06:56):
instructor that you know, or has there been a change
in the physical requirements of a golfer to play at
the highest of high levels, you know, let's say today
versus ten twenty thirty years ago.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I mean the biggest thing is distance, and you know,
everybody's chasing distance and everybody you know the game. I mean,
they're talking about I was just got back from the
Masters and I was talking and they're talking about making
the Masters at eight thousand yards eventually. Wow, you know. So,
I mean, so they these golf courses are getting longer.
There's over five hundred yard part fours now and so forth.
(07:32):
I mean, so, and the athletes are just having to
swing as hard as they can and their their bodies.
You know, I think that the days of a career
lasting twenty twenty five years on the PGA tour, I
think is going to start to wind dwindle down. I
think because more guys are getting hurt now than ever before.
(07:53):
There's more injuries on the PGA Tour than there ever
has been, and most of it, in my feeling, is
most of it it's because of their working out, plus
all of the stresses and strains on the body from
from competition day in and day out. Back in our day,
I mean, hardly anybody ever got hurt because they weren't
working out for the most part, and they certainly weren't
(08:14):
swinging as hard as as the kids do today. So
so there's so much more torque and coil on the body.
And the technology is also played a big part in this,
because now we're able to measure everything, right, we can
measure the vertical forces and the different forces and torque
forces on the on the on the ground, using the
ground and all this stuff. So there's some new techniques
(08:35):
that are coming out that are promoting more spin but
or more not more spin, but more speed. But at
the same time it's also taking a toll on the
body and and so I think I think there's a
give and take there. But but that's really where I've seen,
you know, a tremendous change in terms of you know,
(08:56):
the new kind of so called new era type swings
versus the old.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It's funny you mentioned that, because it's when we look
at our data. We've got a database of over twelve
thousand golfers at this point, and when we look at
the the science, we're obviously massive data geeks looking at
the body and you know, from the rehab perspective as
well as the fitness perspective, and what we see is
and we call it like a gamer speed versus like
(09:20):
an all out speed. And obviously when it comes to speed,
you know, the better players, obviously they're what they're swinging
on the golf course is going to be a little
closer than you know, we get amateurs who they swing
all out and they can swing one hundred and twenty
miles an hour. You put them on a golf course
and they can't keep it anywhere unless they swing ninety five.
Like it's just such a right. So I think that's
definitely something we've seen. You know, we work with a
(09:43):
ton of the world long drive guys as well as
our PGA and LPGA pros. The faster they get. When
we look at the injury data, there's a higher need
for more mobility to be able to support. You know,
think of a you know, if you're going one hundred
miles an hour, you need a longer runway just down
than if you're going twenty miles an hour. And so
what we see is these with this emphasis on speed
(10:06):
and all the data around, Hey, the further you hit
it off the teeth and you know, better scoring, everything
is pushing towards swing faster, swing faster, swing faster. We
I always laugh, I like to get somebody faster, is
I always say, like a monkey could do it. Like,
just swing something faster a lot of times and eventually
you're you're going to figure out how to go. But
the challenge that we've seen that is how do you
(10:28):
get people to swing faster while also reducing injury risk
or keeping it as low as as you possibly can.
And unfortunately we see with so many of the training
aids and you know, you name the theory out there,
the opinion it's very easy to get people going really fast.
But the question, and we've I've yet to have a professional,
(10:49):
someone who makes money playing the game of golf come
in and physically not swing faster than what they can
physically handle. And it's because I think, as you see,
they have great coaches like yourself, off the equipment is
so dialed in, particularly when they're younger. The elasticity is there.
These guys can move so fast they don't necessarily have
the strength to support what they have. But more importantly,
(11:10):
a lot of them surprisingly don't have the mobility. And
the faster guys swing, there's actually a need for more
mobility and more I say strength, that's strength in the
right areas to decelerate and control those areas. And so yeah,
I think we're seeing it all. We're seeing it as
well of guys coming in like you know, they're hurt
and we're like, oh, well, what changed. Well I tried
to add five miles an hour, Oh well, do you
(11:32):
know your shoulder doesn't move? And so yeah, so I
think that's for us, It's always been so for me.
I think this is one of my favorite conversations is
with high level instructors that are seeing the same things
that we usually get him on at this point where
we're still kind of like the trailer where guys don't
come and the particularly the young guys like, oh I'm good,
I'm swinging. I think of ox shape, but he's originally
(11:55):
Raleigh guy. The guys looks like, you know, you turn sideways,
you can't see him. And I've known him and his
family since they were eleven twelve, and like you look
at a guy like that, or you know al Taurus.
These skinny, very elastic guys to your point of the
career levels unless they start to do stuff to like
try to almost put on armor to protect themselves, put
(12:17):
on whether it's weight or making sure the mobility is
are they get to the mid twenties, late twenties, bodies
start breaking down and it sounds like you're seeing that
same thing as well.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, I mean, if they showed it, it was very interesting.
I don't know if you saw it on the telecast yesterday,
but they showed a slow motion zoomed in on Scheffler's
feet and the amount of torque on his left ankle
and you know through the shot, I mean talking about
some hyper mobility. I mean that left foot was like
(12:48):
is not only was a torque around and twisted, but
it was rolled over as far as it can go.
I mean most people would would never they'd break their
ankles if they dis even moved their ankle in that banner,
you know. So you know, it's pretty pretty amazing, like
you said, And and you know, when you're swinging that fast,
you know it's always going to go. Some something's going
(13:10):
to give, you know, if it doesn't have the mobility
and the elasticities as you're as you're talking about. I mean,
look at Xalaturus. I mean he's had some serious back
issues already. I mean the guy's not very old, you know,
but but I mean the amount of torque that he
has in his back and the way he swings. You know,
his career is already creating all kinds of issues. So
(13:30):
you know we're seeing, you know, we see a lot
of that. And you know, I was always under the
depression when we when we're around these because we work
with a lot of elite juniors and you always think
of a junior golfers out there like Gumby, you know,
and they can turn and twist and do everything, but
that's not really the case. I mean, amazing, how right
some of these.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Kids are right, So it's really important that that they understand,
you know, that they have a really good understanding of
where where this where the physical physical side of this
game is coming in, and what it's going to allow
them to do.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
How long it's going to you know, have their their careers,
it's going to link in their careers and you know everything,
everything good is going to happen if they get on
a decent program around some people that really know what
they're doing, because in my opinion, there's lots of trainers
out there, but when you're training golf, you better have
a really really good understanding of the golf swing mechanics
(14:25):
and what you know and what the body needs to
be able to do to support that, because if you don't,
a lot of times, most of the work you're doing
isn't really going to matter that much.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
A hundred percent. I always say about instructors that there's
lots of people who say they teach golf, but when
you when you like, there's there's a big difference between
the elite coaches and I always I use these personal experience.
When I started the business, I went to ten or
twelve different golf pros in the area just to meet them,
and I said, yeah, hey, you give me a lesson.
I'll show you what I do. You show me what
(14:58):
you do. I swear Mike. I showed up with the
same swing every single time, and I got a different
lesson every single time. And it was eye opening to
me of like, hey, there's a lot of guys don't like,
don't really have a system here. There's a lot of
believe you know I think this, or you know I
think that. But I say that to say for the
average golfer listening, like when they're looking to go and
(15:21):
improve their game, and maybe it's for speed, maybe it's
for score, made it's combination, how do they how would
you recommend, like I guess almost interviewing a coach, right,
and everybody can't fly down to Florida necessarily see you
a you don't have time and be that maybe far
for them, right, But like if they're looking for a
good instructor or somebody to really help them improve their
(15:42):
golf game, like I don't know if you have there's,
like I said, or interview questions or how do you
kind of tell the people who know versus don't.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
One of the things you need to do is ask
them what is your philosophy based on? Yeah, okay, And
if they start saying that, well, you know, I've been
teaching for thirty years, or all the great players do this,
or then then what they're really saying is is this
is what my opinion is of what the golf swing
should be. So opinions are are very you know, they
(16:10):
might help some people, but they're not going to help
them everybody, you know, So they need to make sure
the philosophy is based and grounded in something a little
bit more solid than just their opinion of what they
think the swing should be, you know, because you know
the problem is in our in our field, there's very
little training at all. There's it's most people come up
(16:31):
and they're a good player, maybe in college, and then
they get out of college. They can't make a plane.
So they get in, they get into the golf business
and they become you know, a class A professional or whatever.
But while they're getting their class A they work under
a head professional and he doesn't have time to keep
teach them how to teach. So they start out with
juniors and maybe clinics or ladies clinics or whatever, and
(16:55):
then they kind of transition and get a little bit
better as they go or whatever. But there's really no training,
which is really, in my you know, in my opinion,
kind of a problem in our industry. But having said that,
I'm the first one to agree that there are many
different ways that work right. Otherwise everybody on tour would
(17:15):
have the same swinger, they'd all go to the same coach,
so it's not like everybody has to teach the same
But having said that, I think, you know, you need
to go to a person that has that has a
set of preferences that are grounded in something that is
really solid, you know, you know, like I talked about
(17:35):
earlier in the physics side of things, and it just
makes sense. And then and then obviously the experience. You know, what,
what what have your players done that you're coaching? Are
they improving? And you know, those types of questions you
should ask when you're when you're actually looking around for
an instructor.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's awesome. I love to hear that that, like, can't
just be an opinion has to be grounded in something,
and I think there has to.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Be something behind it that that makes and that makes
sense to you and it should be and then the
instructors should be able to explain it to you.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So, yeah, I guess that leads me. I've absolutely I've
known who you are for a long time and very
familiar with the basically the the I guess I would.
I don't know if you call it this the solution
or the comprehence of the training that you that you
put together the most efficient golf swing attainable perfect practice equipment,
Like you obviously did a lot of research putting together
(18:31):
prototypes and you know throughout the course of you know,
your career, how did you arrive at that? And like
what is supple? I have no idea what it is,
but I can. Can you explain kind of what that is?
And then how you got there?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah? So, I mean what happened? You know, we all
have all these old cliches, right like feel is not real? Yeah,
so so people people, most of the people that play
this game. If you take all of the golfers into
the world, there's that. And I asked this at the
National Coaching and Teaching Summit. There was all these teachers,
(19:02):
eight hundred teachers in the audience. I said, what percent
of the golfing population really understands what it takes to
make a swing change or a swing improvement. And they
said less than five percent. So I said, well, less
than five percent really understand what it takes to make
a change. Why is that? Why don't they know? Right?
And there was like silence, right, And so the point
(19:26):
is is that you know, when you go to take
a golf lesson, or even if you go to workout
or you get in a workout program or fitness or whatever,
you need to understand that it's it's an evolution, right,
it's a process, and you have to what I think
it makes sense to me is I want to know
where I am now, but I want to know where
I'm trying to get to right. And you know, it's
(19:47):
like a jigsaw puzzle. You have put all the pieces out,
but the first thing you do is look at the
finished product, which is the box, the cover, and then
you start putting the pieces in right. And so's it's
really important that people understand the process of what it
takes to improve. And if they do understand that process,
then they're way more patient and they're way more committed
(20:09):
to you, and they'll stay in the program because they
know where they know what it actually takes. And in
our sport, I mean when you're trying to develop a
new motor program in your brain for running a different
golf swing, that takes lots of repetitions, but more importantly,
it takes the proper repetitions and exaggerated form of them.
And so when I started teaching, I found out people
(20:32):
were practicing horribly. They had good information a lot of times,
and they thought they were working on it because if
they felt different, right, but you looked at them on
video and they see the same old stuff. It's like
you said, you go back to that guy and that
lesson tee and you have the same swing you had
that last time you went to but he's telling you
something different.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
The problem is is you got to stay the course.
It's like driving from Orlando to Chicago. You got to
follow a roadmap. You don't just drive all over, no
tips and all that. So once you have good information,
then you have to be able to practice properly. And
to me, you have to have feedback. And feedback can
come in the form of technology, although it's not my favorite,
(21:11):
but you can. But if I set up a practice
station that forces a player to do the right mood.
Then he starts to understand the feeling associated with that
that he can take then take to the golf course, right,
So then his feel is actually real. So so I've
spent my whole career really basically because it was hard
for me to change. I mean, if I have one time,
(21:31):
I tell you the story about me going to leadbetter
and trying to change, get my swing down lower and everything.
It's pretty funny. But you know, so people really struggle
with change, right, And that's because they they you know,
they're not in golf prison. If they were in golf
prison and they had they were forced into making this
after three months.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
They'd own it, right, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
But everybody wants the magic tip, they want the magic bullet.
Just tell me what I got to do and I'll
go do it, and they don't really understand the process.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
It's not much different in the fitness world either. Good guys,
I'll be a phone call you. So what are you
looking for the first visit?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
You know, I swing about one hundred one hundred miles
an hour. Has gotall be sixty five? Right? And he says, so, okay,
that's great, So what are you here for? Goes I
want to swing one twenty in the next six weeks. Yeah, well, sir,
I'm not sure how to do that, but uh, let's
start with hundred and then take twenty steps backwards exactly
(22:29):
for distance exactly. So let's let's start with realistic expectations
here that I can actually do for you. But so,
you know, I think that's one of the things I
love talking with instructors is you guys have so many
of the all we deal with the same individual of
the golfer, and they come with the same kind of misinformation,
and you know, we deal with it in the gym
of you know, movements, and you say, hey, you know,
(22:50):
whether it's a hinge or a squad or a press whatever,
it may be a rotation, and you know say all right, yeah,
I got it. And then you take the video and
you look at and there like that's not what I did.
Let me face it. Yeah, let me fix it. Okay.
So they you know, they oh that was way better.
You're show them the video. It looks the exact same. It's
which one was this the first second? Right? You can't tell? So,
I mean very much. So the motor patterning and the
(23:12):
way that human body is you need so many repetitions
and a feedback system, like you know, like what you've
built of being actually able to know what feel is
real and as a you know, as a golfer myself,
I mean, that's by by far and away one of
the most frustrating things of the game. I mean, even
with as much as I know and the people I know,
like you think I would be better, I'm it's still
(23:34):
the same thing. You know, you work, and I have
a coach worked with up here. You go back and
look at the video and you're like, what the hell like,
that's not what it looked like.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, we all have, we all have. Everybody has tendencies
and right and they're playing, whether it's coming over the
top or taking the club inside, whatever may be. So
you have to understand them and then you have to
know what drills that you do to get out of them. Yeah,
and so I always tell people, I said, you know,
I've been teaching for some years or whatever, but I've
(24:02):
only seen thirteen people overdo anything I taught them.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Wow, Meaning they came back amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And their clubhead was way too far to the outside
where they actually grooped it or you know, whatever it is.
It's only been thirteen people. So people come back and
I go, oh, man, your swing looks a lot better,
but we're not quite there yet. And so and that
goes back again to what I said earlier about you know,
you got to really in this sport. You have to
if you're trying to improve. And I don't know how
(24:30):
it is quite maybe this in fitness, but you have
to exaggerate. You have to exaggerate because you're bending a
muscle memory spring and if this is your current swing
and this is where we want you, we got to
go all the way to hear so we can break
that spring. Because if we practice perfect and you go
play golf, it's always going to snap right back. I mean,
(24:51):
so that's the frustrating party and you go, man, I'm
putting in all this practice time and it doesn't do
any good. Once again, we just really haven't pushed ourselves
enough to exaggerate. And you know, I think I think
in the fitness world probably may be not so much exaggeration,
but doing something. You need to do something on a
(25:13):
regular basis for a long time, and then.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You can't just practice once a week or work out
once a week and get all everything you dreamed of.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I'm doing this F forty five program and the guy
tells me the today, He goes, well, are you marking
down your days? And I go, what do you mean?
He goes, well, don't expect to see anything different in
your body for one hundred days, Yeah said, one hundred
days and one hundred days. If you do this, you're
going to see it go a big thing, you know.
And I go, you got tom kidding? I thought it would.
(25:45):
I thought a month is all I needed.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, exactly, That's so funny. There's so many parallels. Well, Mike,
you know that I was just going to be respectful
of your time as we wrap up. You know, if
you have to leave kind of the average golfer, you know,
most golfers listen to this or you know Avid the
single digit play multiple times a week. What would be
kind of a parting piece of advice or you know,
something to leave the listeners with here.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Well, I mean I think if you divide it, if
you could imagine a pie graph, right, and you just
take the slices of the pie graph, so you have
you know, your full swinging maybe iron. So you got
your woods, you got your putting, you got your chipping.
So if you take and then you got your fitnesses
of slice and then all sides of slice. So if
you start looking at that pie and you're you know,
(26:32):
you're a pretty good golfer, but you have aspirations of
continually getting better. I mean, just look at each slice
and ask yourself, what are you doing in this area
to get better? And do you have a plan in
this area? And if the answer is yes, and you
have a plan in each one of those areas, then
it becomes a matter of dividing up your practice time
(26:52):
and being able to hit those different slices, you know,
over the course of a month, let's say. And then
if you do that and you have some monitoring so
that you can judge yourself with what you know and
whether or not you're getting better. If you're doing that,
then you're you're really gonna see some tremendous things in
this game because it's a hard game. And unfortunately, it's
(27:15):
not just one one of those slices that's gonna make
you way better. It's the combination of all of them.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
So what's what I'm hearing is there's not one magic
pill yet.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
On that Yeah, not having to sleep if I didn't
have to sleep, just think how much we could get
done exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, awesome, Well, Mike, we're just for the listeners and
we'll put all this in the show notes as well.
The best place is for people to connect with you,
follow you, kind of keep up with what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, social media, So Mike vendor Golf are at Mike
Bender Golf and then my websites just Mike vendor dot com.
So those are the two main places that you can
find a lot of information and so forth, and we'll
go from there.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Awesome. Well, hey, Mike, thank you so much for spending
the time today. I hope you guys all enjoyed that.
A true living legend in the world of instruction. Definitely
go check out his website social tons of great nuggets
and just really good information in the world where there
is a lot of noise. This has definitely got to
listen to. So yeah, thanks so much, Mike, and we'll
(28:23):
catch you guys on the next episode.
Welcome to the Golf Fitness Bomb Squad podcast with Chris Finn,
a production of P for U S Golf. Welcome to
the Golf Fitness Bomb Squad. I'm your host, Chris Finn,
and I'm here with one of the legends of the
game when it comes to instruction. Actually, Golf Dies calls
him on one of America's top three best teachers. So
(00:21):
if you have been living under a rock, the man
doesn't really need an intro. But Mike Bender is here
as my guest today. We are very lucky to have him.
He has coached a ridiculous number of great players, masters, champions,
amazing amateurs. I mean, we'd be here for the entire
podcast and be listening everybody, But Mike, I can't thank
(00:43):
you enough for being here with us today. Thank you
so much. It's a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, it's great to be on. Thanks for asking.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, definitely, Mike.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I think one of the things that I was always
and this is a total selfish question on my part,
is I always love hearing how great instructors. How did
you get into teaching? Obviously you were a great player collegiately, uh,
you know, multiple time All American Champion, How did you
kind of make the move into you know, into into
(01:14):
the coaching and instructional space you played on tour? Obviously?
What kind of what kind of drew you to this space?
And then what's what's the journey been like getting to
where you are now?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well? I think, you know, one of the things is
is that when I grew up, there wasn't a lot
of instruction. There wasn't a lot of so called teachers
that were just specialists like there is today, and so,
you know, so basically, I mean, without making this too
long a story, in my effort to get on the
PGA tour, I went to see some really top name
(01:49):
or top teachers, but back in those days, they weren't
really top teachers. I mean, Ledbetter was just becoming known,
and so I saw him, I saw Ben Doyle, which
he taught Bobby Clampett and the Golfee machine, you know. So,
so I was around some of these great teachers of
the of their time and they were becoming well known.
But I needed to work on my own golf swing.
(02:11):
So what I would do, though, is after my lesson,
I'd sit around and watch them teach and I'd learn
more about the golf sweling in general. I'd learned more
about the concepts and the physics behind the golf sweling
and things like this, So it really helped me to be,
you know, kind of formulate for my real career. I
always say my playing career was a pre load up
(02:31):
from my real career, which is teaching the game, you know,
So so just that I always want I've always been
really infatuated with how things work, whether it be a
go kart engine, a television or whatever. So I always
wanted to find out how things work. And I think
that kind of mindset makes a good teacher, not necessarily
the best player. You know. Probably my playing career wasn't
(02:54):
was more on the mechanical side than maybe it needed
to be. But but you know, but I it was
all good training for me being able to then later
on work with you know, top players and top amateurs
and having a really good foundation for how the swing works.
And like I said, I think the physics behind it
is very important. Because everybody has an opinion about the
(03:17):
golf swinging, you know, But but when your opinions are
founded and things like that are that are kind of
non negotiable I mean, nobody argues in golf what gravity
is right, or in science, so when you look at
the physics side of it, there's definitely principles of physics
that apply, and if you're in harmony with them, then
you're going to probably be you know, probably pretty good.
(03:37):
But if you're fighting physics, then you know, maybe not
so consistent. So that's kind of how I got into that.
But you know, after I stopped playing, then I just
kind of got into teaching because I was going to
continue to work on my game and try to get
back on tour. But that kind of as teaching got
busier busier, and I had a family going, so it
(03:59):
was just better for me to kind of go down
that avenue and I really enjoyed it. So it's been
it's been. It's been quite a journey.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Though, I bet. And you know, as long as you've
been at it and kind of you've obviously been through
an amazing was like a number of you as a player,
you know, all the way to today, multiple decades of
as the game has evolved and grown to obviously where
it is today where uh, you know, everyone's saying the
ball needs to get shorter. I mean the tire game
has changed. You know, what have been some of the
(04:29):
big I guess more interesting changes that you've you've seen
and how has that impacted instructionally, how you've kind of
taught top players as they've come in each of the generations.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Well, I mean what's interesting is that, you know, the
Tiger Woods effect has been a pretty amazing effect in
terms of you know, back in my day, again, when
I was on a tour, like, there was one trailer
for working out and fitness and it was really only
people that were in there were the people that were injured. Yeah,
nobody's in there, you know, pumping, eat and doing all
(05:00):
the things they do now, because we were all taught
that that's not going to be good for golf, so
you don't want to do that, you know. So, I mean,
the evolution of fitness and the athletic side of golf
has gotten so much better. I mean, these kids today
are tremendous athletes. And not that we not that we
weren't good athletes in the past, but we certainly weren't
(05:20):
as fit or as in shape or spend as much
time in that area, you know, to become as part
of the as part of the solution to being great
at the sport, you know. And then you know, also
like back in my day, I mean the golf ball
and everything, obviously the change I mean, like eighty percent
of the tour hit draws because that would take spin
(05:41):
away and you can hit it further. But now the
balls don't spend, so about eighty percent of the tour
hits a fade off the team now and they hit
the faith as far or farther than they hit the draw.
So there's been some evolution in that type of thing
and in the shape of swings to produce that kind
of ball flight. Since back in our day when we
(06:01):
had to really have a lot of hands, we had
to really hit hooks into the wind and slices into
you know, and work that weall a lot more than
they do today. So it's been pretty interesting from that respect.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And so how have you seen that impact you know,
physically what is required or has there been no change
of what's physically the body needs to be able to
do to be successful at those the highest of high levels.
You know, I'm assuming obviously this equipment changes, you know,
launch conditions and different ways. There's going to be more
(06:34):
or maybe not more but different variables that are going
to be potentially more important, you know, as the equipment
has changed, as they and as the athletes have changed. So, Mike,
as you've seen the the changes, you know, as the
equipment's changed, and you know quick what you were saying,
where nowadays people are hitting more fades because the ball
doesn't spend as much in the old days you had
to be maybe use the hands a little bit more.
What have you seen in terms of, like as the
(06:56):
instructor that you know, or has there been a change
in the physical requirements of a golfer to play at
the highest of high levels, you know, let's say today
versus ten twenty thirty years ago.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I mean the biggest thing is distance, and you know,
everybody's chasing distance and everybody you know the game. I mean,
they're talking about I was just got back from the
Masters and I was talking and they're talking about making
the Masters at eight thousand yards eventually. Wow, you know. So,
I mean, so they these golf courses are getting longer.
There's over five hundred yard part fours now and so forth.
(07:32):
I mean, so, and the athletes are just having to
swing as hard as they can and their their bodies.
You know, I think that the days of a career
lasting twenty twenty five years on the PGA tour, I
think is going to start to wind dwindle down. I
think because more guys are getting hurt now than ever before.
(07:53):
There's more injuries on the PGA Tour than there ever
has been, and most of it, in my feeling, is
most of it it's because of their working out, plus
all of the stresses and strains on the body from
from competition day in and day out. Back in our day,
I mean, hardly anybody ever got hurt because they weren't
working out for the most part, and they certainly weren't
(08:14):
swinging as hard as as the kids do today. So
so there's so much more torque and coil on the body.
And the technology is also played a big part in this,
because now we're able to measure everything, right, we can
measure the vertical forces and the different forces and torque
forces on the on the on the ground, using the
ground and all this stuff. So there's some new techniques
(08:35):
that are coming out that are promoting more spin but
or more not more spin, but more speed. But at
the same time it's also taking a toll on the
body and and so I think I think there's a
give and take there. But but that's really where I've seen,
you know, a tremendous change in terms of you know,
(08:56):
the new kind of so called new era type swings
versus the old.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It's funny you mentioned that, because it's when we look
at our data. We've got a database of over twelve
thousand golfers at this point, and when we look at
the the science, we're obviously massive data geeks looking at
the body and you know, from the rehab perspective as
well as the fitness perspective, and what we see is
and we call it like a gamer speed versus like
(09:20):
an all out speed. And obviously when it comes to speed,
you know, the better players, obviously they're what they're swinging
on the golf course is going to be a little
closer than you know, we get amateurs who they swing
all out and they can swing one hundred and twenty
miles an hour. You put them on a golf course
and they can't keep it anywhere unless they swing ninety five.
Like it's just such a right. So I think that's
definitely something we've seen. You know, we work with a
(09:43):
ton of the world long drive guys as well as
our PGA and LPGA pros. The faster they get. When
we look at the injury data, there's a higher need
for more mobility to be able to support. You know,
think of a you know, if you're going one hundred
miles an hour, you need a longer runway just down
than if you're going twenty miles an hour. And so
what we see is these with this emphasis on speed
(10:06):
and all the data around, Hey, the further you hit
it off the teeth and you know, better scoring, everything
is pushing towards swing faster, swing faster, swing faster. We
I always laugh, I like to get somebody faster, is
I always say, like a monkey could do it. Like,
just swing something faster a lot of times and eventually
you're you're going to figure out how to go. But
the challenge that we've seen that is how do you
(10:28):
get people to swing faster while also reducing injury risk
or keeping it as low as as you possibly can.
And unfortunately we see with so many of the training
aids and you know, you name the theory out there,
the opinion it's very easy to get people going really fast.
But the question, and we've I've yet to have a professional,
(10:49):
someone who makes money playing the game of golf come
in and physically not swing faster than what they can
physically handle. And it's because I think, as you see,
they have great coaches like yourself, off the equipment is
so dialed in, particularly when they're younger. The elasticity is there.
These guys can move so fast they don't necessarily have
the strength to support what they have. But more importantly,
(11:10):
a lot of them surprisingly don't have the mobility. And
the faster guys swing, there's actually a need for more
mobility and more I say strength, that's strength in the
right areas to decelerate and control those areas. And so yeah,
I think we're seeing it all. We're seeing it as
well of guys coming in like you know, they're hurt
and we're like, oh, well, what changed. Well I tried
to add five miles an hour, Oh well, do you
(11:32):
know your shoulder doesn't move? And so yeah, so I
think that's for us, It's always been so for me.
I think this is one of my favorite conversations is
with high level instructors that are seeing the same things
that we usually get him on at this point where
we're still kind of like the trailer where guys don't
come and the particularly the young guys like, oh I'm good,
I'm swinging. I think of ox shape, but he's originally
(11:55):
Raleigh guy. The guys looks like, you know, you turn sideways,
you can't see him. And I've known him and his
family since they were eleven twelve, and like you look
at a guy like that, or you know al Taurus.
These skinny, very elastic guys to your point of the
career levels unless they start to do stuff to like
try to almost put on armor to protect themselves, put
(12:17):
on whether it's weight or making sure the mobility is
are they get to the mid twenties, late twenties, bodies
start breaking down and it sounds like you're seeing that
same thing as well.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, I mean, if they showed it, it was very interesting.
I don't know if you saw it on the telecast yesterday,
but they showed a slow motion zoomed in on Scheffler's
feet and the amount of torque on his left ankle
and you know through the shot, I mean talking about
some hyper mobility. I mean that left foot was like
(12:48):
is not only was a torque around and twisted, but
it was rolled over as far as it can go.
I mean most people would would never they'd break their
ankles if they dis even moved their ankle in that banner,
you know. So you know, it's pretty pretty amazing, like
you said, And and you know, when you're swinging that fast,
you know it's always going to go. Some something's going
(13:10):
to give, you know, if it doesn't have the mobility
and the elasticities as you're as you're talking about. I mean,
look at Xalaturus. I mean he's had some serious back
issues already. I mean the guy's not very old, you know,
but but I mean the amount of torque that he
has in his back and the way he swings. You know,
his career is already creating all kinds of issues. So
(13:30):
you know we're seeing, you know, we see a lot
of that. And you know, I was always under the
depression when we when we're around these because we work
with a lot of elite juniors and you always think
of a junior golfers out there like Gumby, you know,
and they can turn and twist and do everything, but
that's not really the case. I mean, amazing, how right
some of these.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Kids are right, So it's really important that that they understand,
you know, that they have a really good understanding of
where where this where the physical physical side of this
game is coming in, and what it's going to allow
them to do.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
How long it's going to you know, have their their careers,
it's going to link in their careers and you know everything,
everything good is going to happen if they get on
a decent program around some people that really know what
they're doing, because in my opinion, there's lots of trainers
out there, but when you're training golf, you better have
a really really good understanding of the golf swing mechanics
(14:25):
and what you know and what the body needs to
be able to do to support that, because if you don't,
a lot of times, most of the work you're doing
isn't really going to matter that much.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
A hundred percent. I always say about instructors that there's
lots of people who say they teach golf, but when
you when you like, there's there's a big difference between
the elite coaches and I always I use these personal experience.
When I started the business, I went to ten or
twelve different golf pros in the area just to meet them,
and I said, yeah, hey, you give me a lesson.
I'll show you what I do. You show me what
(14:58):
you do. I swear Mike. I showed up with the
same swing every single time, and I got a different
lesson every single time. And it was eye opening to
me of like, hey, there's a lot of guys don't like,
don't really have a system here. There's a lot of
believe you know I think this, or you know I
think that. But I say that to say for the
average golfer listening, like when they're looking to go and
(15:21):
improve their game, and maybe it's for speed, maybe it's
for score, made it's combination, how do they how would
you recommend, like I guess almost interviewing a coach, right,
and everybody can't fly down to Florida necessarily see you
a you don't have time and be that maybe far
for them, right, But like if they're looking for a
good instructor or somebody to really help them improve their
(15:42):
golf game, like I don't know if you have there's,
like I said, or interview questions or how do you
kind of tell the people who know versus don't.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
One of the things you need to do is ask
them what is your philosophy based on? Yeah, okay, And
if they start saying that, well, you know, I've been
teaching for thirty years, or all the great players do this,
or then then what they're really saying is is this
is what my opinion is of what the golf swing
should be. So opinions are are very you know, they
(16:10):
might help some people, but they're not going to help
them everybody, you know, So they need to make sure
the philosophy is based and grounded in something a little
bit more solid than just their opinion of what they
think the swing should be, you know, because you know
the problem is in our in our field, there's very
little training at all. There's it's most people come up
(16:31):
and they're a good player, maybe in college, and then
they get out of college. They can't make a plane.
So they get in, they get into the golf business
and they become you know, a class A professional or whatever.
But while they're getting their class A they work under
a head professional and he doesn't have time to keep
teach them how to teach. So they start out with
juniors and maybe clinics or ladies clinics or whatever, and
(16:55):
then they kind of transition and get a little bit
better as they go or whatever. But there's really no training,
which is really, in my you know, in my opinion,
kind of a problem in our industry. But having said that,
I'm the first one to agree that there are many
different ways that work right. Otherwise everybody on tour would
(17:15):
have the same swinger, they'd all go to the same coach,
so it's not like everybody has to teach the same
But having said that, I think, you know, you need
to go to a person that has that has a
set of preferences that are grounded in something that is
really solid, you know, you know, like I talked about
(17:35):
earlier in the physics side of things, and it just
makes sense. And then and then obviously the experience. You know, what,
what what have your players done that you're coaching? Are
they improving? And you know, those types of questions you
should ask when you're when you're actually looking around for
an instructor.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's awesome. I love to hear that that, like, can't
just be an opinion has to be grounded in something,
and I think there has to.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Be something behind it that that makes and that makes
sense to you and it should be and then the
instructors should be able to explain it to you.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So, yeah, I guess that leads me. I've absolutely I've
known who you are for a long time and very
familiar with the basically the the I guess I would.
I don't know if you call it this the solution
or the comprehence of the training that you that you
put together the most efficient golf swing attainable perfect practice equipment,
Like you obviously did a lot of research putting together
(18:31):
prototypes and you know throughout the course of you know,
your career, how did you arrive at that? And like
what is supple? I have no idea what it is,
but I can. Can you explain kind of what that is?
And then how you got there?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah? So, I mean what happened? You know, we all
have all these old cliches, right like feel is not real? Yeah,
so so people people, most of the people that play
this game. If you take all of the golfers into
the world, there's that. And I asked this at the
National Coaching and Teaching Summit. There was all these teachers,
(19:02):
eight hundred teachers in the audience. I said, what percent
of the golfing population really understands what it takes to
make a swing change or a swing improvement. And they
said less than five percent. So I said, well, less
than five percent really understand what it takes to make
a change. Why is that? Why don't they know? Right?
And there was like silence, right, And so the point
(19:26):
is is that you know, when you go to take
a golf lesson, or even if you go to workout
or you get in a workout program or fitness or whatever,
you need to understand that it's it's an evolution, right,
it's a process, and you have to what I think
it makes sense to me is I want to know
where I am now, but I want to know where
I'm trying to get to right. And you know, it's
(19:47):
like a jigsaw puzzle. You have put all the pieces out,
but the first thing you do is look at the
finished product, which is the box, the cover, and then
you start putting the pieces in right. And so's it's
really important that people understand the process of what it
takes to improve. And if they do understand that process,
then they're way more patient and they're way more committed
(20:09):
to you, and they'll stay in the program because they
know where they know what it actually takes. And in
our sport, I mean when you're trying to develop a
new motor program in your brain for running a different
golf swing, that takes lots of repetitions, but more importantly,
it takes the proper repetitions and exaggerated form of them.
And so when I started teaching, I found out people
(20:32):
were practicing horribly. They had good information a lot of times,
and they thought they were working on it because if
they felt different, right, but you looked at them on
video and they see the same old stuff. It's like
you said, you go back to that guy and that
lesson tee and you have the same swing you had
that last time you went to but he's telling you
something different.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
The problem is is you got to stay the course.
It's like driving from Orlando to Chicago. You got to
follow a roadmap. You don't just drive all over, no
tips and all that. So once you have good information,
then you have to be able to practice properly. And
to me, you have to have feedback. And feedback can
come in the form of technology, although it's not my favorite,
(21:11):
but you can. But if I set up a practice
station that forces a player to do the right mood.
Then he starts to understand the feeling associated with that
that he can take then take to the golf course, right,
So then his feel is actually real. So so I've
spent my whole career really basically because it was hard
for me to change. I mean, if I have one time,
(21:31):
I tell you the story about me going to leadbetter
and trying to change, get my swing down lower and everything.
It's pretty funny. But you know, so people really struggle
with change, right, And that's because they they you know,
they're not in golf prison. If they were in golf
prison and they had they were forced into making this
after three months.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
They'd own it, right, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
But everybody wants the magic tip, they want the magic bullet.
Just tell me what I got to do and I'll
go do it, and they don't really understand the process.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
It's not much different in the fitness world either. Good guys,
I'll be a phone call you. So what are you
looking for the first visit?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
You know, I swing about one hundred one hundred miles
an hour. Has gotall be sixty five? Right? And he says, so, okay,
that's great, So what are you here for? Goes I
want to swing one twenty in the next six weeks. Yeah, well, sir,
I'm not sure how to do that, but uh, let's
start with hundred and then take twenty steps backwards exactly
(22:29):
for distance exactly. So let's let's start with realistic expectations
here that I can actually do for you. But so,
you know, I think that's one of the things I
love talking with instructors is you guys have so many
of the all we deal with the same individual of
the golfer, and they come with the same kind of misinformation,
and you know, we deal with it in the gym
of you know, movements, and you say, hey, you know,
(22:50):
whether it's a hinge or a squad or a press whatever,
it may be a rotation, and you know say all right, yeah,
I got it. And then you take the video and
you look at and there like that's not what I did.
Let me face it. Yeah, let me fix it. Okay.
So they you know, they oh that was way better.
You're show them the video. It looks the exact same. It's
which one was this the first second? Right? You can't tell? So,
I mean very much. So the motor patterning and the
(23:12):
way that human body is you need so many repetitions
and a feedback system, like you know, like what you've
built of being actually able to know what feel is
real and as a you know, as a golfer myself,
I mean, that's by by far and away one of
the most frustrating things of the game. I mean, even
with as much as I know and the people I know,
like you think I would be better, I'm it's still
(23:34):
the same thing. You know, you work, and I have
a coach worked with up here. You go back and
look at the video and you're like, what the hell like,
that's not what it looked like.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, we all have, we all have. Everybody has tendencies
and right and they're playing, whether it's coming over the
top or taking the club inside, whatever may be. So
you have to understand them and then you have to
know what drills that you do to get out of them. Yeah,
and so I always tell people, I said, you know,
I've been teaching for some years or whatever, but I've
(24:02):
only seen thirteen people overdo anything I taught them.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Wow, Meaning they came back amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And their clubhead was way too far to the outside
where they actually grooped it or you know, whatever it is.
It's only been thirteen people. So people come back and
I go, oh, man, your swing looks a lot better,
but we're not quite there yet. And so and that
goes back again to what I said earlier about you know,
you got to really in this sport. You have to
if you're trying to improve. And I don't know how
(24:30):
it is quite maybe this in fitness, but you have
to exaggerate. You have to exaggerate because you're bending a
muscle memory spring and if this is your current swing
and this is where we want you, we got to
go all the way to hear so we can break
that spring. Because if we practice perfect and you go
play golf, it's always going to snap right back. I mean,
(24:51):
so that's the frustrating party and you go, man, I'm
putting in all this practice time and it doesn't do
any good. Once again, we just really haven't pushed ourselves
enough to exaggerate. And you know, I think I think
in the fitness world probably may be not so much exaggeration,
but doing something. You need to do something on a
(25:13):
regular basis for a long time, and then.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You can't just practice once a week or work out
once a week and get all everything you dreamed of.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I'm doing this F forty five program and the guy
tells me the today, He goes, well, are you marking
down your days? And I go, what do you mean?
He goes, well, don't expect to see anything different in
your body for one hundred days, Yeah said, one hundred
days and one hundred days. If you do this, you're
going to see it go a big thing, you know.
And I go, you got tom kidding? I thought it would.
(25:45):
I thought a month is all I needed.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, exactly, That's so funny. There's so many parallels. Well, Mike,
you know that I was just going to be respectful
of your time as we wrap up. You know, if
you have to leave kind of the average golfer, you know,
most golfers listen to this or you know Avid the
single digit play multiple times a week. What would be
kind of a parting piece of advice or you know,
something to leave the listeners with here.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Well, I mean I think if you divide it, if
you could imagine a pie graph, right, and you just
take the slices of the pie graph, so you have
you know, your full swinging maybe iron. So you got
your woods, you got your putting, you got your chipping.
So if you take and then you got your fitnesses
of slice and then all sides of slice. So if
you start looking at that pie and you're you know,
(26:32):
you're a pretty good golfer, but you have aspirations of
continually getting better. I mean, just look at each slice
and ask yourself, what are you doing in this area
to get better? And do you have a plan in
this area? And if the answer is yes, and you
have a plan in each one of those areas, then
it becomes a matter of dividing up your practice time
(26:52):
and being able to hit those different slices, you know,
over the course of a month, let's say. And then
if you do that and you have some monitoring so
that you can judge yourself with what you know and
whether or not you're getting better. If you're doing that,
then you're you're really gonna see some tremendous things in
this game because it's a hard game. And unfortunately, it's
(27:15):
not just one one of those slices that's gonna make
you way better. It's the combination of all of them.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
So what's what I'm hearing is there's not one magic
pill yet.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
On that Yeah, not having to sleep if I didn't
have to sleep, just think how much we could get
done exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, awesome, Well, Mike, we're just for the listeners and
we'll put all this in the show notes as well.
The best place is for people to connect with you,
follow you, kind of keep up with what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, social media, So Mike vendor Golf are at Mike
Bender Golf and then my websites just Mike vendor dot com.
So those are the two main places that you can
find a lot of information and so forth, and we'll
go from there.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Awesome. Well, hey, Mike, thank you so much for spending
the time today. I hope you guys all enjoyed that.
A true living legend in the world of instruction. Definitely
go check out his website social tons of great nuggets
and just really good information in the world where there
is a lot of noise. This has definitely got to
listen to. So yeah, thanks so much, Mike, and we'll
(28:23):
catch you guys on the next episode.
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