April 2, 2024 • 51 mins
🎙️ This week on Conflict Managed I'm delighted to host Dr. Chris Callaway on our 100th episode! 🎇
Join us as we discuss:
🤹♂️Communicating transferable skills
👎Downsizing
🏗Building new networks
🍀The amazing impact of good bosses
🚯When to approach a colleague about a mistake
Chris Callaway is the Assistant Dean for Pre-Clinical Curriculum at the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine. He earned a Ph. D. in philosophy from Saint Louis University, and also holds degrees from Baylor University, Samford University, and Auburn University. Before joining UNE, he taught philosophy at colleges in Michigan, California, and Maine, specializing in ethics, political philosophy, and philosophy of knowledge. In 2022, he left his tenured position to become a product manager at an educational technology company, before "repivoting" back to academia. In all his professional roles he has been most passionate about finding ways to help other people achieve their goals more successfully or efficiently.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it under wraps now.
No.
Get a sun uptight Jack asking questions.
(00:25):
Welcome to the 100th episode of Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Mary Brown today on Conflict Managed.
We welcome Doctor Chris Calloway.
Chris is the assistant dean for preclinical curriculum at the University of New England College of osteopathic Medicine.
He earned a phd in philosophy from Saint Louis University and also holds degrees from Baylor University,
(00:46):
Stanford University and Auburn University before joining you ne he taught philosophy at colleges in Michigan,
California and Maine specializing in ethics,
political philosophy and Philosophy of Knowledge.
In 2020.
He left his tenured position to become a product manager at an educational technology company before re pivoting back to academia in all his professional roles.
(01:09):
He has been most passionate about finding ways to help other people achieve their goals more successfully or efficiently.
Good morning,
Chris and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Good morning.
Thank you for having me.
It's so lovely to see you,
Chris and I have been friends for several decades and it's nice to catch up.
Yeah,
I don't like how you put that.
(01:30):
But,
yeah.
Yes.
Time passes.
Well,
Chris,
will you tell us about the first job you ever had as a young person?
The first paying job I had was,
um,
uh,
Christmas help at a toy store in the mall where I grew up,
(01:50):
I was a senior in high school and I,
I had a friend who worked there and I thought it would be nice to make a little bit of extra money.
So I applied and I think they were desperate for,
for suckers who would work minimum wage and help frantic customers,
uh,
buying toys during the holiday season.
So that was my,
that was my first job.
I did that for like,
(02:11):
um,
I wanna say,
three months.
What was that experience?
Like?
It was,
it was good.
It was,
um,
hectic at times.
What I remember most about it is that we were across from the,
uh,
you know,
the,
the chocolate chip cookie company or something or something like that.
(02:31):
And,
uh,
on a really good night they would have a bunch of scraps and they would walk them over to us.
And so they put us,
uh,
chocolate chip cookie scraps.
Um,
but it was a lot of,
um,
sort of,
uh,
menial routine labor.
You know,
most of the customers were perfectly friendly and,
and,
and happy,
but it was,
(02:52):
you know,
sometimes they were stressed out and,
you know,
a lot of grunt work,
which is what you get with your first job.
That's right.
And I suppose that's the time to have it because you're excited about your first job and earning a paycheck and,
and learning about work.
Yeah.
And,
and since I was earning my own money it gave me a little bit of independence for my parents,
which,
(03:12):
uh,
was maybe even more valuable than the,
the meager pay that I was bringing home.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So,
where did you go from there?
From there?
So,
that was senior year of high school from there.
I went to,
uh,
went to college and I had a,
another Christmas help job at JC Penney working in their,
uh,
stock room just for like,
(03:33):
I don't know,
three or four weeks.
So I,
I like that.
And then the summer after freshman year,
I got a job at the,
the county courthouse working for the tax assessor.
I was actually thinking about this,
prompted by your,
uh,
your interview offer.
Thinking about my,
my work history.
This is a job I got,
uh,
I think he hired lots of people because he knew that they would be voters and would vote for him.
(04:01):
Because what,
what I was told was if you show up and you wear a suit and you shake his hand,
look him in the eye,
he'll give you a job.
And so there were lots of people and,
and the office was just crammed full of people.
So I was stuck in an,
in an,
like in an actual office with,
I don't know,
uh,
six or seven people.
There's one desk,
but we were kind of stuck here here and there.
(04:23):
And my job was to look over property deeds and make sure that the computer printout we had matched the,
you know,
the legal document,
some of which was,
was handwrit and it was so boring and so tedious,
but it paid really well for,
especially for the kind of job that I could get.
And,
uh,
I ended up,
um,
having,
uh,
one of my best friends,
(04:44):
uh,
get a job there too,
so we would have lunch together.
And so it was a,
it was a good,
it was a good summer job but very,
very boring.
Yeah,
that's,
that's also a good experience to have,
uh,
a boring job because of course,
what's boring to one person is just fine to somebody else.
But those first jobs can help us really think about what it is we want to do and certainly what it is we do not want to do.
(05:10):
Yeah.
So you go to college and,
uh,
did you major in philosophy in undergraduate?
I did not,
I majored in history and discovered philosophy for benefit of your listeners.
Uh,
Mary and I met when I was a doctoral student in philosophy at Saint Louis University,
but I discovered philosophy right before I graduated from college,
I took a course just on a lark.
(05:31):
Um,
spring quarter of my senior.
Year and was keeping myself that,
that I hadn't discovered it earlier because I loved it.
I liked history a lot and I was glad to have majored in history but,
but philosophy really turned me on from the get go and,
and I was regretting that I hadn't had a chance to,
to study it more.
But I guess it,
it,
it wasn't too late because it ended up going into philosophy.
(05:54):
You went and did a phd?
Did you do a master's in between or did you go straight to a phd?
No,
I actually did two masters.
So when I was in college,
um I had planned to enter ordained ministry.
So I went to Divinity School after college,
I was able to take a few philosophy courses there.
And during that process,
I decided ordained ministry is,
(06:15):
is not really what,
not really what I want out of life.
So,
uh I,
I thought,
well,
what am I gonna do and had enjoyed philosophy?
So I thought,
well,
maybe I can get into a philosophy graduate program.
So I got into an ma program,
a terminal ma and then thought,
well,
maybe I can get into a doctoral program.
And so I got into Saint Louis University's doctoral program.
(06:37):
And from there,
I got one year teaching position and then another one year teaching position that I was able to renew for a year,
got a 10 year track job,
got tenure.
So I,
I kept like moving a little bit farther,
you know,
taking one more step to see how far I could go.
And I got,
I got pretty far and I think a lot of people don't know the process of getting jobs in academia and of course,
(07:00):
it depends on the field that you're in.
Uh,
but getting a full time tenure track job in philosophy is difficult.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's much,
much harder now.
But even when I got my job,
I was one of 200 people to apply and,
and I ended up at a,
a very um uh nonselective uh tiny college,
(07:25):
maybe that's not super tiny.
There are certainly tinier but a small college um in,
in Maine.
So not a research one or uh institution,
not a uh a well endowed institution.
And so I,
I was one of 200 when we did a job search to bring on another philosopher in my department.
We did that twice actually,
(07:46):
in both times,
we had around 450 applicants.
So very,
very tough competition for sure.
And so then you taught for quite some time and then you left academia to go into the education field.
Well,
you were obviously in the education field.
But,
yeah.
Yeah,
I pivoted to an tech company.
(08:07):
Um basically a publisher that had digitized all of its publications.
It was operating them as a software as a service model.
Yeah,
I did that in 2022.
I had been looking to pivot from,
uh,
academia and I can talk about that if you,
if you want.
But I ended up getting this job and I gave notice to,
(08:30):
uh,
to the dean.
Uh,
it was,
you know,
she'd been on the job for about a month and I gave notice two weeks before classes started in the fall semester.
So,
uh,
she took it very,
very well.
She was very gracious and encouraging to me,
I felt very bad to have to dump that in her in her lap.
But,
you know,
the timing was what it was.
(08:51):
Um,
there's nothing really I could do about it.
So,
yes,
I got a job as a,
I was a product manager at an,
a tech company.
So my products were research databases that were used by teachers and,
and libraries and uh loved that had a AAA great experience.
It,
it gave me what I was looking for in terms of something different.
And uh also a challenge I was able to,
(09:12):
to,
to learn a lot.
Unfortunately,
as is happening still in the tech world,
we had a round of layoffs,
a big round of layoffs.
And so my position was eliminated.
So I was back on the job hunt and,
and so I,
I was really only there for,
um,
a little over five months.
So pretty short,
pretty short tenure there.
And so where did you end up?
(09:33):
So I ended up in the job that I have now,
I'm uh in an administrative position at a medical college here in Maine.
It's a new position that is,
is a little bit an amalgamation of a whole bunch of different functions.
So my,
my boss,
uh who's an associate dean,
you know,
described in terms of buckets.
I've got these different buckets that I have to fill uh or,
(09:54):
or keep filled and it covers things like faculty development and ethics and professionalism,
um uh managing our uh classroom and learning technologies.
And so weirdly,
even though I don't have a background in,
in medicine,
I had taught a little bit in,
in medical ethics and so that,
that helped.
(10:14):
But,
um,
but I did have that ethics background and I had academic leadership and just familiarity with,
um,
with higher ed and a technology background since I had,
you know,
that ed tech position.
So weirdly,
even though I,
I,
I'm not a physician or have a,
a degree in,
in,
in medicine or anything like that,
I,
I checked off a lot of boxes in,
(10:35):
in what they were looking for.
And,
uh,
and so that was back in,
um,
I started back in June and it's been great.
Yeah,
I think it's interesting when we are doing different sorts of jobs we don't necessarily think about.
Maybe I don't think I'm qualified for the next thing.
But when we really think about transferable skills.
So I taught philosophy for over 20 years and when I saw the writing on the wall,
(10:58):
like I need to be doing something different,
you know,
what does an out of work philosopher do?
And when you think that way,
uh but now when I think about what kind of out of work philosopher do,
I think so much,
I mean,
those skills in the business world are really golden.
That's what people are looking for.
The ability to analyze and think and read and contribute and collaborate and write.
(11:23):
And with teaching the people skills,
the be the ability to listen to what's being said many times it appears to be unintelligible and,
but developing the skills and the managing of a classroom and,
and all of it,
it's so transferable to many different disciplines.
Mhm.
I completely agree.
So,
why did you leave academia,
(11:45):
um,
for a,
a number of reasons?
Some more pragmatic and,
and some more,
I don't know,
existential to use a fancy,
philosophical sounding word.
Um,
on the pragmatic basis,
my college was a very small college,
always run on a shoestring budget and they started going downhill financially.
(12:06):
Um,
you know,
our,
our pay was bad by the standards of small religious colleges,
like,
even compared to our peers that our pay was bad and it just wasn't getting,
uh,
getting better and I'm the sole breadwinner for my family.
So it,
it became harder and harder to,
um,
to provide uh,
(12:27):
for them.
So,
I was,
um,
you know,
I had a full time teaching load,
which for us was three classes per semester.
We were on a four printed hour system.
So that's 12 hours.
So that's,
you know,
not the heaviest load that I'd heard of,
but it was,
it was fairly heavy and to,
to expenses I was doing about double of that.
Um,
(12:47):
in terms of taking extra classes,
some of them were online,
which is a little bit different from teaching,
you know,
you know,
traditional campus classroom,
but some were extra campus classroom courses.
And so I was burning the candle at both ends and,
um,
we started having layoffs and the,
the things really started going downhill.
(13:09):
So I,
I stayed for probably longer than I should have because I was hoping that,
you know,
the ship would be,
would be righted.
But apart from that,
I was also just,
uh,
feeling like I wasn't growing anymore and didn't have opportunity for growth.
So when I got tenure,
I was really glad.
And so my first thought was hooray,
(13:30):
but my second thought was this weird sense of,
of unrest.
Like,
like I thought about,
you know,
on the,
on the path that I'm on.
If I stay on this path,
the,
the day before I retire,
I'll be doing exactly the same thing that I did on day one when I started this job.
And that's not bad work.
(13:50):
It's,
it's very good work if you can get it and I enjoyed it for a long time.
But I also thought,
well,
there are,
there are other things that I could do and it's kind of a shame that on this path,
I'm never really gonna be able to explore those,
those other opportunities.
So it was just a little bit of a sour note in,
in getting,
um,
in getting tenure and,
(14:11):
and that attitude I think,
grew over the,
over the years I became,
you know,
you know,
teaching was the,
the high points of teaching are great.
The low points of teaching are really,
really frustrating.
And um and I began to have more of those frustrating moments and less of those great moments.
And a lot of it was just,
I described it as uh like Groundhog Day.
(14:33):
You know,
I was teaching the same classes over and over hearing the students say the same thing over and over dealing with the same problems over and over.
And so while I was grateful to have that job and still am grateful and glad that I,
that I did it,
it just kind of got,
uh it got stale and II,
I wanted something that was gonna let me learn new things,
develop new skills and just do something different.
(14:54):
So for all those reasons,
I,
I decided to,
to pivot and started working at it and then COVID hit.
So that really um was,
it was a wrinkle that uh that,
that,
that slowed my uh slowed my progress.
But,
um but I was determined to,
uh I was determined to,
to,
to get out while the getting was good and,
(15:16):
and I did and then have sort of un pivoted back to higher ed.
But where I'm at now is very different from where I was before.
So I'm not back to square one.
It's a very different organization just in terms of the university.
It is a university as opposed to a college and also medical education is very different from undergraduate um humanities uh education.
(15:38):
So I I'm really glad to be where I am now.
It's a,
it's a very healthy place and,
and I am getting that challenge that I was looking for when I left uh the college where I,
where I was teaching,
it does feel a little bit weird to be back into higher ed since they were so hard to get uh to get out of it.
And at some point I will need to move on.
Um But for now I'm,
(15:59):
I'm really happy to be where I am.
So how did you get in a way?
Not that you were stuck?
But you said for a while you were thinking about making this change and,
and you're about to do it and COVID hits,
entering the job market is,
is daunting for most people.
And it,
(16:19):
you know,
it's much different than when you were on the market looking for a job in philosophy.
And then you're looking in a different kind of market.
What did you do to prepare yourself to land a job?
That was interesting to you.
Yeah,
I,
I think part of the challenge is that and as you know,
academia is so idiosyncratic,
the way we hire the way we get jobs where we,
(16:42):
we get reviewed.
Um the,
the kind of work culture,
it's so different from,
from the rest of the economy.
So I had to do a lot of learning about what the rest of the world is like and,
and how to uh how to get out there.
And it is a challenge for,
for academics,
like,
like we've talked about,
(17:03):
we have a lot of transferable skills.
We have a lot of value that we can bring to um industries outside of academia.
The challenge is learning how to get people to see that and how to communicate that and also how to um you know,
how to build a network,
right?
I had a network but it was an academic network.
I knew people all over the country but they were other professors like me.
(17:27):
And so that wasn't useless but it wasn't the kind of network that I needed to um to make it out of academia.
Um So uh uh I didn't quite panic but,
but I did um feel a sense of urgency when I,
when I finally decided,
OK,
I gotta make this job.
(17:48):
And so I just started talking to anybody who would,
who would listen,
II,
I turned to my college friends and,
and uh they connected me with people and encouraged me.
And I had,
I had done a little bit of preparation ahead of time because I,
I had a feeling that I was gonna need to get out.
And so I had set up a little file on my um personal Google Drive that I titled Escape Route.
(18:11):
If I came across some resources about how to transition,
I would,
I would dump it in there.
So I spent some time looking more closely at,
at,
at that material.
I knew that one job that I would be interested in,
it was related to ethics.
And so I,
I knew the head of clinical ethics at the big hospital here in,
in Portland.
(18:31):
So I reached out to him and explore the possibility of,
of doing uh doing that.
I had an interview lined up right before COVID hit.
So that went uh that went away.
So I spent some time kind of preparing for that avenue that turned out not to uh not to work out.
So I guess the short answer to your question,
(18:52):
which I should have just given.
So the long answer is it took a lot of learning and a lot of uh learning the sense of investigation and,
and,
and figuring out what the lay of the land is and,
and how to strategize about getting from where I was to where I,
where I wanted to be and,
and that learning really a lot of reading online but also just a lot of talking to people.
(19:13):
Yeah,
you know,
I think for me for leaving academia,
it was this narrative that I had told myself,
what am I,
what,
what can I do?
And I think a lot of preparing for whatever transition you're going to is that internal preparation of who am I?
And what do I have to offer so many times?
Especially if we're in a toxic environment,
(19:34):
we are beat down in a sort of way where we're supposed to feel grateful for this job.
Um There's nothing else,
nobody else is gonna want us.
It's just,
it's just too impossible.
It's too difficult.
And so to start to de escalate ourselves and say,
OK,
why,
why am I thinking this way other people transition,
other people move?
What do I have to offer?
(19:56):
How can I use the language of the place in which I want to move?
And it is,
it is a language and understanding that,
but that it's not that far off field and it's once you start just listening a little bit,
it's easy to pick up and say,
oh yeah.
Well,
I do this,
this is what I call it,
but I can use your language.
And I think,
I think it's really empowering for even if you plan to stay in whatever job you're in for the rest of your life to always have an updated resume,
(20:23):
to think about a broader network because that will actually help the job that you're in because you're not just thinking in one way like professionals in your field,
you and especially if you're,
you're working with students,
they're going to be in all different kinds of fields.
And so um the more that you invest in who you are as a professional and not just a particular job title and as a person,
(20:45):
of course,
then when change happens and change is always happening,
unforeseen change,
uh,
and if something happens like a layoff,
which sounds absolutely awful and that,
what an awful surprise to go through,
but to prepare yourself for these sorts of things that are certainly possible.
(21:06):
We don't need to,
you know,
be,
you know,
live in fear of them but being prepared,
especially when you are the person who is bringing in the money for a family.
Hm.
Yeah.
Totally,
totally agree.
And I think it's even more important today than it was,
say,
five years ago.
You know,
we're,
we're just in increasingly seeing jobs that are supposed to be secure or not,
(21:30):
not to be.
And,
um,
it,
it pays to be,
um,
to,
to do your homework ahead of time and,
and I wish I had started earlier frankly.
Yeah.
Yeah,
me too.
So,
how did you deal with,
um,
being laid off?
I mean,
that's something that's a reality.
That a lot of people have faced or are facing.
So,
how did you,
how did you handle that?
(21:53):
So,
being laid off,
I,
I've told people was my second greatest fear.
My first greatest fear was,
you know,
my wife or my sons dying or,
or something horrible happening to them.
But right after that was getting laid off and,
uh,
I was,
I was devastated.
Um,
(22:14):
I did not see it coming.
Our company had been profitable and had grown the previous year.
Um,
so I thought everything was,
was hunky dory.
Um,
and then it wasn't.
So the first 24 hours were really hard.
Um,
I,
(22:34):
uh,
I was in a lot of shock.
Um,
I told my family and I,
I'm so lucky and blessed to have a,
a strong marriage and a good relationship with my sons.
And so they certainly supported me,
my older boy.
Then I'm gonna try to say this without crying.
(22:56):
Um,
my older boy,
Ben,
when I told him said,
well,
don't,
don't worry,
dad,
you and I can go downtown and we'll go to different businesses and I'll help you and,
and,
and we'll talk to some people there and tell them that you need a job and we'll give you a job.
Oh,
this is so sweet.
It is sweet.
And that's the kind of kid he is.
Um,
(23:17):
so I told him that morning and then I just,
I just got out and,
and wandered around um this is February so it was cold.
So I wandered around the mall for a while just to,
just to move and,
and get my body doing something.
Um I called my priest and set up a meeting with him and uh and,
and wept with him and he prayed for me.
(23:39):
It was very,
very helpful.
The next day I think I was also still just dealing with the devastation.
I talked to some of my best friends uh from,
from college,
let them know and,
and they were supporting me as well.
I started telling people in my uh in my friend community here.
(24:00):
And then strangely,
after about 48 hours,
I kind of was ok.
Um I was not happy but I had the sense that OK,
have absorbed the body blow.
Now,
I've got my work cut out for me.
(24:21):
I've got all these people behind me.
This happens and,
and I think it's gonna be ok and I don't know why I it felt that way.
But,
but during my entire leopard n,
you know,
it's,
it was still an emotional roller coaster right.
There were,
there were days when I was,
you know,
super confident and then there are days where I was like,
(24:44):
jeez,
what's,
you know,
how are we gonna do this?
But the lows were never as bad as I thought they were gonna be.
So and,
and strangely,
there were days that just,
just felt normal,
right?
I mean,
they say when you're unemployed your job is to look for a job.
So I spent a lot of time just,
just doing that and,
you know,
get to the end of the day.
It was like,
(25:04):
ok,
well,
I'll put in a good number of hours at this and now it's time to relax and it just felt like kind of an another day.
Um,
so that it was,
it was a surprise that,
that it wasn't as bad as I,
as I thought it was gonna be.
I never want to go through it again.
Believe.
Right.
And,
and I don't want to minimize how traumatic it is and for other people it's,
it's probably even more traumatic than it was for me.
(25:27):
But either through,
um,
you know,
luck or Providence or what have you.
I made it through and,
and the,
the day to day endurance was,
um,
was,
was not as bad as I thought.
I mean,
I,
I would say you asked me how I,
(25:47):
how I dealt with it.
I made sure to,
um,
eat well and get plenty of sleep and continue to exercise.
Just take care,
taking care of myself.
What I think was,
was really important and I would strongly recommend anybody do that.
Um,
and,
and if you're not already exercising,
use your,
your time,
(26:08):
uh,
job searching to,
to build that into your schedule,
it's really important.
Um,
and I,
I never drink a whole lot but you know,
I made sure to,
to be moderate with uh with alcohol intake.
Um So taking care of yourself is,
is,
is,
is especially important and,
and leaning on people.
(26:28):
I mean,
II I told people pretty much from,
from the get go.
This has happened to me and it's,
it's not easy to share that with,
with,
with people,
but I was the silver lining in being laid off was I had an amazing outpouring of love and support and I knew that all those people did love me and support me.
But having them say that and,
(26:50):
and back it up is,
is invaluable.
And that's one thing that I will treasure from that dark period of my,
of my life.
Yeah,
I know when I look at and hear about layoffs,
a lot of times people talk about the way in which the news was delivered and I think there's certainly terrible ways to go about delivering the news and yet I'm not sure what is the best way to deliver this sort of news?
(27:18):
How did,
how was it handled from your organization?
Yeah.
I don't know if there is a good way for us.
So,
uh,
my job was fully remote and my company had an office,
I think they,
they moved but they were based in,
uh,
in Manhattan.
And,
um,
(27:38):
so I don't know how they did it for other people but for those of us who are remote,
they had a 10 minute meeting,
put on our Google calendars with,
um,
I think it listed like,
you know,
someone from HR and then the VP for finance.
And so my boss ended up getting eliminated as,
(27:59):
as well.
And her boss did too and he messaged messaged us on slack because he found out that the evening before and before he had lost his,
you know,
access to email and stuff like that,
he had,
he had already lost access to email,
but he could get on slack for whatever reason.
And so he messaged us and said,
hey,
I just found out that,
uh,
you know,
I'm being laid off.
(28:19):
It's been wonderful working with you.
So I was frantically messaging to um um to,
to my immediate supervisor and,
and our team and,
and,
you know,
we said,
all right,
none of us have meetings on our calendars.
Um We haven't heard anything about,
you know,
way off,
so maybe we're gonna be ok.
So I went to sleep that night thinking,
(28:41):
well,
this doesn't sound good,
but at least it wasn't me.
Right.
And then next morning,
you know,
830 I saw there's a 10 o'clock meeting for 10 minutes and texted my,
my boss and she had one like,
you know,
right before so that,
so I knew what was coming with about two hours warning,
(29:03):
maybe,
maybe a little bit less.
Yeah.
And,
you know,
they were just to the point they said,
you know,
we're making some changes and,
and having to let some people go and,
and so you're gonna be like,
oh,
yeah.
You know,
bitterness is always hard for us.
I mean,
it,
it's a,
it's a killer for us and not for anybody else.
(29:25):
How have you dealt,
or have you dealt with any bitterness from mismanagement in the organization?
How have you dealt with that?
Yeah,
that's a good question.
II,
I haven't been very bitter.
I,
I'm still puzzled as to the rationale.
They,
they let a lot of people go that I think they needed in order for them to progress as a company.
(29:53):
And I'm not including myself.
I was,
I was new.
I kind of get why I would be,
uh eliminated.
But they,
the,
the people they,
they let go versus the people they kept doesn't make,
make sense to me.
Given that the challenges that they,
that they were facing and the fact that they let some people go after they were profitable and,
and were growing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
(30:15):
But I was grateful for the,
uh,
for the chance that I had and bitterness isn't gonna help me get where I need to go or,
or live a happy life.
So I,
maybe I was a little bit on guard for,
for bitterness.
If anything,
I deal with more bitterness about the previous job,
my,
uh,
you know,
the college where I was teaching philosophy,
(30:37):
but I don't have a lot of bitterness but,
but I,
I certainly am,
am,
am,
you know,
I soured more on,
on that organization even though I'm still grateful to have been there and still have a lot of,
uh,
a lot of work friends there and,
and I,
I want the,
the college to,
to succeed.
(30:58):
II,
I,
uh I have a harder time,
you know,
uh keeping a positive attitude toward that experience for whatever reason.
Maybe,
maybe I wasn't at my last company long enough to,
to develop an emotional attachment to it.
But uh uh but so bitterness put up for uh you know,
in the wake of my layoff really wasn't uh wasn't an issue.
(31:19):
I think that's interesting what you said about the place before.
And this is,
I think an experience that most of us have is a lot of times when we're in a conflict with a person and it's been going on for a while,
we villainized them,
they're all bad,
you know.
And yet,
of course,
if we step back,
we realize no,
they're a human person and maybe they are objectively doing something that's harmful to me,
(31:40):
but they're a mix and so are organizations,
even organizations in which we really have been harmed.
It's typically the case that there are bright spots and there are things that we're grateful for and things that we loved and benefited from and flourished right alongside the difficult,
the mismanagement,
the baffling the the injustice that we suffer.
(32:04):
And uh it's,
I think it's kind of hard sometimes to,
sometimes we let places get a pass or we say they're worse than they actually are.
You know,
the whole place is a dumpster fires.
Like,
well,
no,
it was just my department or these departments.
So,
when you think about all the different places that you have worked,
what is the best experience you've had with a boss or a colleague?
(32:28):
And what was it?
That was so good about it.
Well,
um my current boss and my previous boss,
like in,
in my Ed Tech company are tied for the best bosses that I've ever had.
They're both fantastic and for,
for very similar reasons.
So in my previous job,
(32:49):
right,
I was new to Ed Tech,
I was new to product management and my uh my whole team was great and supportive.
But my immediate supervisor who,
who knew me before I came to work there,
she,
I was a bit of a known quantity for her and um but she also knew that I was transitioning and so she was so supportive and encouraging and celebrated.
(33:11):
My successes helped me,
uh you know,
figure out where I could grow and what I needed to do to uh to succeed,
help me navigate uh team dynamics since I was new to the,
the organization and the team,
just everything you would want in a boss and lo and behold,
I have another one like that in my current position.
(33:32):
Um Again,
I'm new to medical education.
She recognizes that,
but uh just like my previous boss,
she gives me room to make mistakes and trust me to take the initiative and is very complimentary uh about the,
the value that I bring and the ways that I help her do her job.
So both of those people make me feel good about um what I've done and what I can do and that confidence is invaluable.
(34:02):
I mean,
that,
that,
that helps you,
you know,
that makes you wanna come to work,
right?
It makes you wanna work hard and,
and,
and succeed.
So I've been very,
very fortunate in,
in my current job and my past job to have um supervisors who,
who,
who treat me that way.
That is so wonderful and I'm so happy that you've had those experiences and it just seems like such a no brainer when we feel welcomed,
(34:26):
when people light up,
they're happy to see us or they say things like they recognize the good that we have done and the good that we can do basic psychology tells us that that's going to make me want to do more and be more engaged and be more creative and collaborative and be about the mission of the organization.
(34:47):
So much of it isn't the job itself,
it's the people,
it's the climate,
what is going on here.
How am I being viewed?
Do they even want me here.
Are they gonna respect me?
Are they trusting me?
Are they micromanaging or out to lunch?
They are not even present.
How engaged are they?
(35:08):
You know,
we're always trying to figure out what's going on and when you're in an environment where it's just like a breath of fresh air,
then,
you know,
when we think about health of the body,
you know,
when you're in a healthy environment,
you're just,
it's like all of a sudden you're,
you're functioning and you're like,
wow,
this is what it could be like,
this is what um what it feels like to really be seen and freed in a way to be your best self and empowered to do those things that maybe you didn't even think about before.
(35:39):
Yeah,
absolutely.
That's,
that's so important and again,
contrasting it with the,
the college that I taught at in general.
I felt free to be myself at that um at that school.
And I,
I contributed,
I had a,
I had a very positive experience on the whole,
it did kind of sour toward the end unfortunately.
But um but I'm glad that I was there,
(36:01):
but there were moments where it wasn't all that I,
that I wanted it to be.
And just as you were talking,
I,
I was thinking about um my first year or two there.
Um As you know,
and as other people may remember from their time in higher Ed,
you have these end of semester course evaluations that the,
that the students do.
There is ample data to show that those evaluations are deeply flawed as instruments of,
(36:27):
of for evaluating uh teacher effectiveness or,
or,
or much of anything uh other than,
you know,
some form of customer satisfaction.
So anyway,
I got reviews uh that were ok in terms of like the number scores.
But for two straight semesters,
I had a student say that they felt disrespected by me and I was crushed because I went into that job wanting to be the professor that pushed his students.
(36:59):
But that also students liked,
like I wanted to be enthusiastic and positive and help them discover a passion for learning and for my discipline.
So I knew that I did not treat anybody disrespectfully,
at least intentionally,
like maybe uh there was something that was taken the wrong way or,
(37:21):
or,
or was unintentional,
something like that.
So frustrating because I,
I didn't know who it was.
I didn't know what incident they were um referring to and I got no support.
Like my,
my dean said,
well,
you know,
it's probably not a big deal,
but if it happens again,
then,
you know,
you probably won't get tender,
right?
No,
you know,
indication of how can I address this?
How can I uh I improve in,
(37:43):
in this?
And,
and my chair was,
was largely the,
the,
the same way.
He said,
well,
you gotta get your numbers up.
So do things that will get your,
you know,
change those threes into fours or something like that.
So I felt very unsupported by the people that really should have been,
uh,
supporting me.
So I ended up figuring it out on,
on my own and,
(38:04):
and my,
uh,
my numbers got better and I didn't really have,
uh,
those,
those comments anymore,
but,
but I felt like,
you know,
why are you taking the student's word for it?
Over,
over,
over mine,
right?
Why are you just assuming that,
you know,
that it's true that I,
that I treated them disrespectfully,
you know,
based on,
on these one and comments and why did those comments outweigh the positive comments that people said?
(38:28):
You know,
so it was very uh it was very frustrating.
Again,
it ended up not being AAA big issue for me.
I got tenure and I got promoted but uh but it was a sour note to,
to start out on that position and,
and again,
to contrast that with what I have now,
right?
People,
they,
they've got my back and,
and I don't get everything right?
(38:50):
But,
but when I make a mistake,
they,
you know,
they support me and,
and,
and help me see it as a,
as a learning opportunity.
That's such a good point.
When you think about teacher evaluations,
it's almost like taking the word on internet comments because,
you know,
so I was evaluated for many,
many years as well.
And like,
(39:10):
on rate my professor.com,
a lot of the comments,
I'd be like,
how does she,
how does she teach in heels?
And she's always wearing cute dresses and I'm like,
ok,
that's how I was being rated.
And,
um,
but it,
there are all these anonymous comments so you don't have the context and you have the student who showed up one or two times and now my university has gone to online evaluations and they're supposed to do them in all their classes.
(39:36):
And I've gotten evaluated for not being a very good math professor.
And I taught philosophy,
you know,
because students get confused and I mean,
why would you take seriously internet comments?
And I think that's a lot of what student reviews are and think about how dehumanizing that is to be told you're disrespectful with no context and no ability to make a change,
especially as,
(39:57):
you know,
when you get these comments,
it's right alongside of this is the best class I've ever had.
This is the worst I've ever had.
This person is very clear.
This person is so unclear and how are you supposed to navigate that?
And it's not just,
oh,
it's interesting,
you know,
what students think it has to do with promotion raises,
be that what they mean in,
(40:18):
in education?
But we wouldn't do that to anybody.
Right.
And,
and so how is that?
I'm pretty much against anonymous surveys anyway.
But,
and then the lack of support.
Right.
How,
how do I get better?
These are important,
very important and don't worry about it at the same time.
Yeah.
(40:39):
Yeah.
Course evaluations are,
as I said,
they're,
they're,
they're deeply flawed and it's ironic that colleges and universities which should be leading,
uh,
leading the way in terms of using data.
So,
in a sophisticated way,
use them in a very,
very flawed,
unsophisticated.
Right.
And I think it's because they have to do something and do these things generate numbers and we can pretend that numbers have meaning.
(41:05):
So that's,
that's what we use.
Well,
said,
Chris,
that's exactly what I think about numbers and let's just get a number and pretend it means something,
it's significant.
Mhm.
What do you think about conflicts that you've had in different places?
Can you tell us about a conflict that you had and,
and how you dealt with it,
how you resolved it?
(41:25):
Sure.
So I haven't had a lot of conflict.
Fortunately,
iii I get along with just about every,
but there was one incident that,
that comes to mind in my um philosophy job.
Uh So I was a member of the,
of the faculty and we were small college.
So all the faculty,
you know,
you either knew them or you knew someone who,
(41:46):
who,
who knew them.
So one day I,
I realized that a,
a colleague in another department uh had published a paper in what's called a predatory journal,
which if your listeners don't know what those are,
it's basically like these bogus journals that,
you know,
they send out spam email invitations to submit.
And it's,
(42:06):
it's,
it's a journal that publishes,
you know,
we see exhibitions in architecture and geography and chemical engineering and home economics,
right?
So they'll publish anything and they charge,
you know,
a few $100.
So it's a money maker and,
you know,
they promise peer review in five days,
right?
So for a real journal,
(42:27):
you,
you'd be lucky if you got comments back in a peer review judgment in five months,
right?
And so one of my colleagues in a different department had,
had,
had published in one of these,
these journals and she got uh an award for it.
We,
some years we would get a small uh monetary awards if you'd publish things.
And,
and uh and so she had been listed in the,
(42:48):
in the award recipients.
And,
and so the title of her journal Rang a Bell because I've been getting spam from them.
And um and so I,
and,
and I thought,
well,
that,
that sounds kind of bogus.
So I read up on predatory journals and,
and,
and learned about how big a problem they are and how widespread they are.
And so I thought,
well,
it's not really fair for her to get an a an award.
(43:11):
But,
you know,
if they've already been given out that that ship has sailed but then I realized she was also coming up for promotion,
she was gonna go up,
up to,
uh,
she was applying for a promotion to full professor.
And I thought if I were on the rank and,
and promotion committee,
uh sorry,
uh,
rank and tenure committee,
(43:32):
I would look at Scotts at someone who listed this kind of publication in their,
their application.
So I thought,
well,
maybe I should talk to her about it because given what I knew about her,
I figured she didn't really understand what was the nature of that,
of that journal.
At least I thought there was a good chance that she,
that she did it.
So she was walking past my office and I invited her in and said,
(43:53):
you know,
I know she published this article.
Um and I wanted you to know that,
that that journal actually had is,
is very disreputable and,
and here's what I found,
um I should add at this point that she was a sister of mercy uh at a sisters of mercy college.
So I accused the sisters of a sister of mercy of basically academic misconduct.
(44:16):
She did not receive my offer with grace and a plum she was ticked off and accused me of trying to,
you know,
undermine her and,
and spy on her and stuff like that.
But I felt it was important because,
you know,
I would want to know if I had published something in AAA journal that I thought was reputable is gonna help me get promoted and it turns out I was gonna do the opposite.
(44:40):
I would,
I would want to know.
So,
so I think I did the right thing and to,
to make that decision,
I also talked with one of my colleagues in the philosophy department who was also a sister of Mercy and an epic like,
is this,
is this right?
Should I,
am I sticking my nose in,
in someone else's business or is it,
is it would be a good idea for me to,
I talked to her and she,
(45:01):
she backed me up on,
on,
on my decision.
So I think I did the right thing.
It did not go as well as I'd hoped.
Um,
later on,
I think maybe she,
she got over it or,
or thought differently because,
um,
you know,
we were,
we were walking out months later,
uh,
you know,
to the parking lot and she engaged me,
(45:21):
a conversation seemed pretty friendly and,
and,
and I asked her,
so,
are we ok now?
And she said something kind of cryptic,
but so I think it ended up,
you know,
not permanently damaging our uh working relationship,
not that we had much of one anyway.
I think I did the right thing.
Um,
and I think I did it the right way but,
uh,
(45:41):
you know,
sometimes you do the right thing and it,
it doesn't turn out the way you the way.
You hope it's such a really good example.
Thank you for sharing that because many times we see something that we think is not right in some way.
And then we wonder,
is this my business?
Should I say something?
Is it courageous to say something or is it nosy to say something?
(46:07):
And so what are we supposed to do?
And a great thing to do is what you did is,
you know,
engage somebody in a,
in a,
uh a fruitful conversation,
right?
What should I do?
What would you do?
And it's always great to get in like,
what is an outside standard?
What is sort of the standard of practice and also the golden rule,
right?
(46:27):
What is it that we want?
And,
and many times,
well,
not many times it can happen that we don't get the response that we think we,
we think we're showing somebody a mercy and they don't see it that way.
And so it is important to get our intentions right?
To really think about how we're going to present the information,
(46:48):
but we're not in charge of anybody else,
right?
We don't get to decide how somebody else takes information,
but we are obviously in charge of following our conscience and trying to help.
And if we're not sure if we're meddling,
talking to somebody else and if somebody else in a variety of people think,
no,
that's just really not your business then being able to hear that as well.
(47:10):
Um But at the end of the day,
we just have we're living with ourselves and,
and what kind of person that we want to be and,
and how we want to be a colleague.
What does it mean to be a good colleague?
Yeah,
yeah.
Perspective taking I think is,
is,
is really important.
But just as you,
as you mentioned,
you got to supplement that sometimes with,
(47:30):
you know,
talking to a third party who can,
who can,
you know,
help you think twice about your motivations or about the likely outcomes or,
or whether this would be productive or not.
So,
Chris,
this is the last question I'd like to end on when you think about the world of work out,
you know,
in the next foreseeable future.
What do you think needs to happen so that not only is everyone treated with dignity and respect,
(47:54):
but they're encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Oh gosh,
how would I transform the uh the global workplace?
Um Well,
I'll say two things.
One,
it,
it,
the more we can make it human and less bureaucratic,
the better,
you know,
as a job seeker,
it was so dispiriting to have to upload my resume and then go through the A TS and,
(48:22):
you know,
re-enter stuff that was already in the,
the,
the resume and then you get the,
you know,
the,
the form email and um surely there are ways that we could simplify that process and make it less robotic uh and,
and more respectful of uh of the human beings who are caught in the system.
And I know it's not easy for reviewers of applications,
(48:44):
either they're,
they're flooded with applications.
But anything that we can do to make the workplace,
uh more human and,
and less,
less rigid and form driven,
the better and then on,
on the,
the part of workers themselves,
the one bit of advice that I've come across that I think is important,
(49:04):
not only for workers,
but for,
for people is assume positive intention,
assume that the people that you are encountering are coming at what they're doing from a good place and,
and trying to do their,
their best or at least a,
a AAA good job.
(49:25):
And it's so hard to do that sometimes when you don't know the person who's causing difficulty for you,
when you see them doing something or saying something that doesn't make sense.
I encounter this all the time.
We've had services rolled out by its here,
right?
That haven't gone all that smoothly and it's easy for people to,
you know,
go their hands and say,
(49:45):
well,
why don't they care about us,
right?
Why are they making us do all this stuff?
Well,
in some cases,
there's probably a very good reason.
It's just the reason isn't apparent to you.
And so if you start by giving people the benefit of the doubt and then asking,
you know,
what,
what is,
what's the real reason that they're,
they're doing this and if people do that for you then I think we'll have a lot less conflict or the conflict that we do have will be a lot more manageable.
(50:10):
So I've tried to maintain that attitude.
Sometimes it's easier.
Sometimes it's harder.
But I think if everybody had that attitude we would all be a lot better off.
Oh,
I absolutely agree.
I love that because you can't solve a problem with the villain.
You could solve a problem with another person.
Yeah.
Well,
Chris,
thank you so much for your time.
It's been just a joy chatting with you.
(50:31):
My pleasure,
Chris,
thank you so much for being on conflict managed.
What a joy it is to catch up with you and so pleased that you're doing well and you love where you are right now.
Conflict Managed is produced by third party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Mary Brown.
You can find us online at three P Conflict restoration.com.
(50:52):
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at work tips to ensure failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do and start a conversation about what to do instead.
What does it mean to be professional these days?
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot.
(51:12):
And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time,
take care.
So.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it under wraps now.
No.
Get a sun uptight Jack asking questions.
(00:25):
Welcome to the 100th episode of Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Mary Brown today on Conflict Managed.
We welcome Doctor Chris Calloway.
Chris is the assistant dean for preclinical curriculum at the University of New England College of osteopathic Medicine.
He earned a phd in philosophy from Saint Louis University and also holds degrees from Baylor University,
(00:46):
Stanford University and Auburn University before joining you ne he taught philosophy at colleges in Michigan,
California and Maine specializing in ethics,
political philosophy and Philosophy of Knowledge.
In 2020.
He left his tenured position to become a product manager at an educational technology company before re pivoting back to academia in all his professional roles.
(01:09):
He has been most passionate about finding ways to help other people achieve their goals more successfully or efficiently.
Good morning,
Chris and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Good morning.
Thank you for having me.
It's so lovely to see you,
Chris and I have been friends for several decades and it's nice to catch up.
Yeah,
I don't like how you put that.
(01:30):
But,
yeah.
Yes.
Time passes.
Well,
Chris,
will you tell us about the first job you ever had as a young person?
The first paying job I had was,
um,
uh,
Christmas help at a toy store in the mall where I grew up,
(01:50):
I was a senior in high school and I,
I had a friend who worked there and I thought it would be nice to make a little bit of extra money.
So I applied and I think they were desperate for,
for suckers who would work minimum wage and help frantic customers,
uh,
buying toys during the holiday season.
So that was my,
that was my first job.
I did that for like,
(02:11):
um,
I wanna say,
three months.
What was that experience?
Like?
It was,
it was good.
It was,
um,
hectic at times.
What I remember most about it is that we were across from the,
uh,
you know,
the,
the chocolate chip cookie company or something or something like that.
(02:31):
And,
uh,
on a really good night they would have a bunch of scraps and they would walk them over to us.
And so they put us,
uh,
chocolate chip cookie scraps.
Um,
but it was a lot of,
um,
sort of,
uh,
menial routine labor.
You know,
most of the customers were perfectly friendly and,
and,
and happy,
but it was,
(02:52):
you know,
sometimes they were stressed out and,
you know,
a lot of grunt work,
which is what you get with your first job.
That's right.
And I suppose that's the time to have it because you're excited about your first job and earning a paycheck and,
and learning about work.
Yeah.
And,
and since I was earning my own money it gave me a little bit of independence for my parents,
which,
(03:12):
uh,
was maybe even more valuable than the,
the meager pay that I was bringing home.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So,
where did you go from there?
From there?
So,
that was senior year of high school from there.
I went to,
uh,
went to college and I had a,
another Christmas help job at JC Penney working in their,
uh,
stock room just for like,
(03:33):
I don't know,
three or four weeks.
So I,
I like that.
And then the summer after freshman year,
I got a job at the,
the county courthouse working for the tax assessor.
I was actually thinking about this,
prompted by your,
uh,
your interview offer.
Thinking about my,
my work history.
This is a job I got,
uh,
I think he hired lots of people because he knew that they would be voters and would vote for him.
(04:01):
Because what,
what I was told was if you show up and you wear a suit and you shake his hand,
look him in the eye,
he'll give you a job.
And so there were lots of people and,
and the office was just crammed full of people.
So I was stuck in an,
in an,
like in an actual office with,
I don't know,
uh,
six or seven people.
There's one desk,
but we were kind of stuck here here and there.
(04:23):
And my job was to look over property deeds and make sure that the computer printout we had matched the,
you know,
the legal document,
some of which was,
was handwrit and it was so boring and so tedious,
but it paid really well for,
especially for the kind of job that I could get.
And,
uh,
I ended up,
um,
having,
uh,
one of my best friends,
(04:44):
uh,
get a job there too,
so we would have lunch together.
And so it was a,
it was a good,
it was a good summer job but very,
very boring.
Yeah,
that's,
that's also a good experience to have,
uh,
a boring job because of course,
what's boring to one person is just fine to somebody else.
But those first jobs can help us really think about what it is we want to do and certainly what it is we do not want to do.
(05:10):
Yeah.
So you go to college and,
uh,
did you major in philosophy in undergraduate?
I did not,
I majored in history and discovered philosophy for benefit of your listeners.
Uh,
Mary and I met when I was a doctoral student in philosophy at Saint Louis University,
but I discovered philosophy right before I graduated from college,
I took a course just on a lark.
(05:31):
Um,
spring quarter of my senior.
Year and was keeping myself that,
that I hadn't discovered it earlier because I loved it.
I liked history a lot and I was glad to have majored in history but,
but philosophy really turned me on from the get go and,
and I was regretting that I hadn't had a chance to,
to study it more.
But I guess it,
it,
it wasn't too late because it ended up going into philosophy.
(05:54):
You went and did a phd?
Did you do a master's in between or did you go straight to a phd?
No,
I actually did two masters.
So when I was in college,
um I had planned to enter ordained ministry.
So I went to Divinity School after college,
I was able to take a few philosophy courses there.
And during that process,
I decided ordained ministry is,
(06:15):
is not really what,
not really what I want out of life.
So,
uh I,
I thought,
well,
what am I gonna do and had enjoyed philosophy?
So I thought,
well,
maybe I can get into a philosophy graduate program.
So I got into an ma program,
a terminal ma and then thought,
well,
maybe I can get into a doctoral program.
And so I got into Saint Louis University's doctoral program.
(06:37):
And from there,
I got one year teaching position and then another one year teaching position that I was able to renew for a year,
got a 10 year track job,
got tenure.
So I,
I kept like moving a little bit farther,
you know,
taking one more step to see how far I could go.
And I got,
I got pretty far and I think a lot of people don't know the process of getting jobs in academia and of course,
(07:00):
it depends on the field that you're in.
Uh,
but getting a full time tenure track job in philosophy is difficult.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's much,
much harder now.
But even when I got my job,
I was one of 200 people to apply and,
and I ended up at a,
a very um uh nonselective uh tiny college,
(07:25):
maybe that's not super tiny.
There are certainly tinier but a small college um in,
in Maine.
So not a research one or uh institution,
not a uh a well endowed institution.
And so I,
I was one of 200 when we did a job search to bring on another philosopher in my department.
We did that twice actually,
(07:46):
in both times,
we had around 450 applicants.
So very,
very tough competition for sure.
And so then you taught for quite some time and then you left academia to go into the education field.
Well,
you were obviously in the education field.
But,
yeah.
Yeah,
I pivoted to an tech company.
(08:07):
Um basically a publisher that had digitized all of its publications.
It was operating them as a software as a service model.
Yeah,
I did that in 2022.
I had been looking to pivot from,
uh,
academia and I can talk about that if you,
if you want.
But I ended up getting this job and I gave notice to,
(08:30):
uh,
to the dean.
Uh,
it was,
you know,
she'd been on the job for about a month and I gave notice two weeks before classes started in the fall semester.
So,
uh,
she took it very,
very well.
She was very gracious and encouraging to me,
I felt very bad to have to dump that in her in her lap.
But,
you know,
the timing was what it was.
(08:51):
Um,
there's nothing really I could do about it.
So,
yes,
I got a job as a,
I was a product manager at an,
a tech company.
So my products were research databases that were used by teachers and,
and libraries and uh loved that had a AAA great experience.
It,
it gave me what I was looking for in terms of something different.
And uh also a challenge I was able to,
(09:12):
to,
to learn a lot.
Unfortunately,
as is happening still in the tech world,
we had a round of layoffs,
a big round of layoffs.
And so my position was eliminated.
So I was back on the job hunt and,
and so I,
I was really only there for,
um,
a little over five months.
So pretty short,
pretty short tenure there.
And so where did you end up?
(09:33):
So I ended up in the job that I have now,
I'm uh in an administrative position at a medical college here in Maine.
It's a new position that is,
is a little bit an amalgamation of a whole bunch of different functions.
So my,
my boss,
uh who's an associate dean,
you know,
described in terms of buckets.
I've got these different buckets that I have to fill uh or,
(09:54):
or keep filled and it covers things like faculty development and ethics and professionalism,
um uh managing our uh classroom and learning technologies.
And so weirdly,
even though I don't have a background in,
in medicine,
I had taught a little bit in,
in medical ethics and so that,
that helped.
(10:14):
But,
um,
but I did have that ethics background and I had academic leadership and just familiarity with,
um,
with higher ed and a technology background since I had,
you know,
that ed tech position.
So weirdly,
even though I,
I,
I'm not a physician or have a,
a degree in,
in,
in medicine or anything like that,
I,
I checked off a lot of boxes in,
(10:35):
in what they were looking for.
And,
uh,
and so that was back in,
um,
I started back in June and it's been great.
Yeah,
I think it's interesting when we are doing different sorts of jobs we don't necessarily think about.
Maybe I don't think I'm qualified for the next thing.
But when we really think about transferable skills.
So I taught philosophy for over 20 years and when I saw the writing on the wall,
(10:58):
like I need to be doing something different,
you know,
what does an out of work philosopher do?
And when you think that way,
uh but now when I think about what kind of out of work philosopher do,
I think so much,
I mean,
those skills in the business world are really golden.
That's what people are looking for.
The ability to analyze and think and read and contribute and collaborate and write.
(11:23):
And with teaching the people skills,
the be the ability to listen to what's being said many times it appears to be unintelligible and,
but developing the skills and the managing of a classroom and,
and all of it,
it's so transferable to many different disciplines.
Mhm.
I completely agree.
So,
why did you leave academia,
(11:45):
um,
for a,
a number of reasons?
Some more pragmatic and,
and some more,
I don't know,
existential to use a fancy,
philosophical sounding word.
Um,
on the pragmatic basis,
my college was a very small college,
always run on a shoestring budget and they started going downhill financially.
(12:06):
Um,
you know,
our,
our pay was bad by the standards of small religious colleges,
like,
even compared to our peers that our pay was bad and it just wasn't getting,
uh,
getting better and I'm the sole breadwinner for my family.
So it,
it became harder and harder to,
um,
to provide uh,
(12:27):
for them.
So,
I was,
um,
you know,
I had a full time teaching load,
which for us was three classes per semester.
We were on a four printed hour system.
So that's 12 hours.
So that's,
you know,
not the heaviest load that I'd heard of,
but it was,
it was fairly heavy and to,
to expenses I was doing about double of that.
Um,
(12:47):
in terms of taking extra classes,
some of them were online,
which is a little bit different from teaching,
you know,
you know,
traditional campus classroom,
but some were extra campus classroom courses.
And so I was burning the candle at both ends and,
um,
we started having layoffs and the,
the things really started going downhill.
(13:09):
So I,
I stayed for probably longer than I should have because I was hoping that,
you know,
the ship would be,
would be righted.
But apart from that,
I was also just,
uh,
feeling like I wasn't growing anymore and didn't have opportunity for growth.
So when I got tenure,
I was really glad.
And so my first thought was hooray,
(13:30):
but my second thought was this weird sense of,
of unrest.
Like,
like I thought about,
you know,
on the,
on the path that I'm on.
If I stay on this path,
the,
the day before I retire,
I'll be doing exactly the same thing that I did on day one when I started this job.
And that's not bad work.
(13:50):
It's,
it's very good work if you can get it and I enjoyed it for a long time.
But I also thought,
well,
there are,
there are other things that I could do and it's kind of a shame that on this path,
I'm never really gonna be able to explore those,
those other opportunities.
So it was just a little bit of a sour note in,
in getting,
um,
in getting tenure and,
(14:11):
and that attitude I think,
grew over the,
over the years I became,
you know,
you know,
teaching was the,
the high points of teaching are great.
The low points of teaching are really,
really frustrating.
And um and I began to have more of those frustrating moments and less of those great moments.
And a lot of it was just,
I described it as uh like Groundhog Day.
(14:33):
You know,
I was teaching the same classes over and over hearing the students say the same thing over and over dealing with the same problems over and over.
And so while I was grateful to have that job and still am grateful and glad that I,
that I did it,
it just kind of got,
uh it got stale and II,
I wanted something that was gonna let me learn new things,
develop new skills and just do something different.
(14:54):
So for all those reasons,
I,
I decided to,
to pivot and started working at it and then COVID hit.
So that really um was,
it was a wrinkle that uh that,
that,
that slowed my uh slowed my progress.
But,
um but I was determined to,
uh I was determined to,
to,
to get out while the getting was good and,
(15:16):
and I did and then have sort of un pivoted back to higher ed.
But where I'm at now is very different from where I was before.
So I'm not back to square one.
It's a very different organization just in terms of the university.
It is a university as opposed to a college and also medical education is very different from undergraduate um humanities uh education.
(15:38):
So I I'm really glad to be where I am now.
It's a,
it's a very healthy place and,
and I am getting that challenge that I was looking for when I left uh the college where I,
where I was teaching,
it does feel a little bit weird to be back into higher ed since they were so hard to get uh to get out of it.
And at some point I will need to move on.
Um But for now I'm,
(15:59):
I'm really happy to be where I am.
So how did you get in a way?
Not that you were stuck?
But you said for a while you were thinking about making this change and,
and you're about to do it and COVID hits,
entering the job market is,
is daunting for most people.
And it,
(16:19):
you know,
it's much different than when you were on the market looking for a job in philosophy.
And then you're looking in a different kind of market.
What did you do to prepare yourself to land a job?
That was interesting to you.
Yeah,
I,
I think part of the challenge is that and as you know,
academia is so idiosyncratic,
the way we hire the way we get jobs where we,
(16:42):
we get reviewed.
Um the,
the kind of work culture,
it's so different from,
from the rest of the economy.
So I had to do a lot of learning about what the rest of the world is like and,
and how to uh how to get out there.
And it is a challenge for,
for academics,
like,
like we've talked about,
(17:03):
we have a lot of transferable skills.
We have a lot of value that we can bring to um industries outside of academia.
The challenge is learning how to get people to see that and how to communicate that and also how to um you know,
how to build a network,
right?
I had a network but it was an academic network.
I knew people all over the country but they were other professors like me.
(17:27):
And so that wasn't useless but it wasn't the kind of network that I needed to um to make it out of academia.
Um So uh uh I didn't quite panic but,
but I did um feel a sense of urgency when I,
when I finally decided,
OK,
I gotta make this job.
(17:48):
And so I just started talking to anybody who would,
who would listen,
II,
I turned to my college friends and,
and uh they connected me with people and encouraged me.
And I had,
I had done a little bit of preparation ahead of time because I,
I had a feeling that I was gonna need to get out.
And so I had set up a little file on my um personal Google Drive that I titled Escape Route.
(18:11):
If I came across some resources about how to transition,
I would,
I would dump it in there.
So I spent some time looking more closely at,
at,
at that material.
I knew that one job that I would be interested in,
it was related to ethics.
And so I,
I knew the head of clinical ethics at the big hospital here in,
in Portland.
(18:31):
So I reached out to him and explore the possibility of,
of doing uh doing that.
I had an interview lined up right before COVID hit.
So that went uh that went away.
So I spent some time kind of preparing for that avenue that turned out not to uh not to work out.
So I guess the short answer to your question,
(18:52):
which I should have just given.
So the long answer is it took a lot of learning and a lot of uh learning the sense of investigation and,
and,
and figuring out what the lay of the land is and,
and how to strategize about getting from where I was to where I,
where I wanted to be and,
and that learning really a lot of reading online but also just a lot of talking to people.
(19:13):
Yeah,
you know,
I think for me for leaving academia,
it was this narrative that I had told myself,
what am I,
what,
what can I do?
And I think a lot of preparing for whatever transition you're going to is that internal preparation of who am I?
And what do I have to offer so many times?
Especially if we're in a toxic environment,
(19:34):
we are beat down in a sort of way where we're supposed to feel grateful for this job.
Um There's nothing else,
nobody else is gonna want us.
It's just,
it's just too impossible.
It's too difficult.
And so to start to de escalate ourselves and say,
OK,
why,
why am I thinking this way other people transition,
other people move?
What do I have to offer?
(19:56):
How can I use the language of the place in which I want to move?
And it is,
it is a language and understanding that,
but that it's not that far off field and it's once you start just listening a little bit,
it's easy to pick up and say,
oh yeah.
Well,
I do this,
this is what I call it,
but I can use your language.
And I think,
I think it's really empowering for even if you plan to stay in whatever job you're in for the rest of your life to always have an updated resume,
(20:23):
to think about a broader network because that will actually help the job that you're in because you're not just thinking in one way like professionals in your field,
you and especially if you're,
you're working with students,
they're going to be in all different kinds of fields.
And so um the more that you invest in who you are as a professional and not just a particular job title and as a person,
(20:45):
of course,
then when change happens and change is always happening,
unforeseen change,
uh,
and if something happens like a layoff,
which sounds absolutely awful and that,
what an awful surprise to go through,
but to prepare yourself for these sorts of things that are certainly possible.
(21:06):
We don't need to,
you know,
be,
you know,
live in fear of them but being prepared,
especially when you are the person who is bringing in the money for a family.
Hm.
Yeah.
Totally,
totally agree.
And I think it's even more important today than it was,
say,
five years ago.
You know,
we're,
we're just in increasingly seeing jobs that are supposed to be secure or not,
(21:30):
not to be.
And,
um,
it,
it pays to be,
um,
to,
to do your homework ahead of time and,
and I wish I had started earlier frankly.
Yeah.
Yeah,
me too.
So,
how did you deal with,
um,
being laid off?
I mean,
that's something that's a reality.
That a lot of people have faced or are facing.
So,
how did you,
how did you handle that?
(21:53):
So,
being laid off,
I,
I've told people was my second greatest fear.
My first greatest fear was,
you know,
my wife or my sons dying or,
or something horrible happening to them.
But right after that was getting laid off and,
uh,
I was,
I was devastated.
Um,
(22:14):
I did not see it coming.
Our company had been profitable and had grown the previous year.
Um,
so I thought everything was,
was hunky dory.
Um,
and then it wasn't.
So the first 24 hours were really hard.
Um,
I,
(22:34):
uh,
I was in a lot of shock.
Um,
I told my family and I,
I'm so lucky and blessed to have a,
a strong marriage and a good relationship with my sons.
And so they certainly supported me,
my older boy.
Then I'm gonna try to say this without crying.
(22:56):
Um,
my older boy,
Ben,
when I told him said,
well,
don't,
don't worry,
dad,
you and I can go downtown and we'll go to different businesses and I'll help you and,
and,
and we'll talk to some people there and tell them that you need a job and we'll give you a job.
Oh,
this is so sweet.
It is sweet.
And that's the kind of kid he is.
Um,
(23:17):
so I told him that morning and then I just,
I just got out and,
and wandered around um this is February so it was cold.
So I wandered around the mall for a while just to,
just to move and,
and get my body doing something.
Um I called my priest and set up a meeting with him and uh and,
and wept with him and he prayed for me.
(23:39):
It was very,
very helpful.
The next day I think I was also still just dealing with the devastation.
I talked to some of my best friends uh from,
from college,
let them know and,
and they were supporting me as well.
I started telling people in my uh in my friend community here.
(24:00):
And then strangely,
after about 48 hours,
I kind of was ok.
Um I was not happy but I had the sense that OK,
have absorbed the body blow.
Now,
I've got my work cut out for me.
(24:21):
I've got all these people behind me.
This happens and,
and I think it's gonna be ok and I don't know why I it felt that way.
But,
but during my entire leopard n,
you know,
it's,
it was still an emotional roller coaster right.
There were,
there were days when I was,
you know,
super confident and then there are days where I was like,
(24:44):
jeez,
what's,
you know,
how are we gonna do this?
But the lows were never as bad as I thought they were gonna be.
So and,
and strangely,
there were days that just,
just felt normal,
right?
I mean,
they say when you're unemployed your job is to look for a job.
So I spent a lot of time just,
just doing that and,
you know,
get to the end of the day.
It was like,
(25:04):
ok,
well,
I'll put in a good number of hours at this and now it's time to relax and it just felt like kind of an another day.
Um,
so that it was,
it was a surprise that,
that it wasn't as bad as I,
as I thought it was gonna be.
I never want to go through it again.
Believe.
Right.
And,
and I don't want to minimize how traumatic it is and for other people it's,
it's probably even more traumatic than it was for me.
(25:27):
But either through,
um,
you know,
luck or Providence or what have you.
I made it through and,
and the,
the day to day endurance was,
um,
was,
was not as bad as I thought.
I mean,
I,
I would say you asked me how I,
(25:47):
how I dealt with it.
I made sure to,
um,
eat well and get plenty of sleep and continue to exercise.
Just take care,
taking care of myself.
What I think was,
was really important and I would strongly recommend anybody do that.
Um,
and,
and if you're not already exercising,
use your,
your time,
(26:08):
uh,
job searching to,
to build that into your schedule,
it's really important.
Um,
and I,
I never drink a whole lot but you know,
I made sure to,
to be moderate with uh with alcohol intake.
Um So taking care of yourself is,
is,
is,
is especially important and,
and leaning on people.
(26:28):
I mean,
II I told people pretty much from,
from the get go.
This has happened to me and it's,
it's not easy to share that with,
with,
with people,
but I was the silver lining in being laid off was I had an amazing outpouring of love and support and I knew that all those people did love me and support me.
But having them say that and,
(26:50):
and back it up is,
is invaluable.
And that's one thing that I will treasure from that dark period of my,
of my life.
Yeah,
I know when I look at and hear about layoffs,
a lot of times people talk about the way in which the news was delivered and I think there's certainly terrible ways to go about delivering the news and yet I'm not sure what is the best way to deliver this sort of news?
(27:18):
How did,
how was it handled from your organization?
Yeah.
I don't know if there is a good way for us.
So,
uh,
my job was fully remote and my company had an office,
I think they,
they moved but they were based in,
uh,
in Manhattan.
And,
um,
(27:38):
so I don't know how they did it for other people but for those of us who are remote,
they had a 10 minute meeting,
put on our Google calendars with,
um,
I think it listed like,
you know,
someone from HR and then the VP for finance.
And so my boss ended up getting eliminated as,
(27:59):
as well.
And her boss did too and he messaged messaged us on slack because he found out that the evening before and before he had lost his,
you know,
access to email and stuff like that,
he had,
he had already lost access to email,
but he could get on slack for whatever reason.
And so he messaged us and said,
hey,
I just found out that,
uh,
you know,
I'm being laid off.
(28:19):
It's been wonderful working with you.
So I was frantically messaging to um um to,
to my immediate supervisor and,
and our team and,
and,
you know,
we said,
all right,
none of us have meetings on our calendars.
Um We haven't heard anything about,
you know,
way off,
so maybe we're gonna be ok.
So I went to sleep that night thinking,
(28:41):
well,
this doesn't sound good,
but at least it wasn't me.
Right.
And then next morning,
you know,
830 I saw there's a 10 o'clock meeting for 10 minutes and texted my,
my boss and she had one like,
you know,
right before so that,
so I knew what was coming with about two hours warning,
(29:03):
maybe,
maybe a little bit less.
Yeah.
And,
you know,
they were just to the point they said,
you know,
we're making some changes and,
and having to let some people go and,
and so you're gonna be like,
oh,
yeah.
You know,
bitterness is always hard for us.
I mean,
it,
it's a,
it's a killer for us and not for anybody else.
(29:25):
How have you dealt,
or have you dealt with any bitterness from mismanagement in the organization?
How have you dealt with that?
Yeah,
that's a good question.
II,
I haven't been very bitter.
I,
I'm still puzzled as to the rationale.
They,
they let a lot of people go that I think they needed in order for them to progress as a company.
(29:53):
And I'm not including myself.
I was,
I was new.
I kind of get why I would be,
uh eliminated.
But they,
the,
the people they,
they let go versus the people they kept doesn't make,
make sense to me.
Given that the challenges that they,
that they were facing and the fact that they let some people go after they were profitable and,
and were growing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
(30:15):
But I was grateful for the,
uh,
for the chance that I had and bitterness isn't gonna help me get where I need to go or,
or live a happy life.
So I,
maybe I was a little bit on guard for,
for bitterness.
If anything,
I deal with more bitterness about the previous job,
my,
uh,
you know,
the college where I was teaching philosophy,
(30:37):
but I don't have a lot of bitterness but,
but I,
I certainly am,
am,
am,
you know,
I soured more on,
on that organization even though I'm still grateful to have been there and still have a lot of,
uh,
a lot of work friends there and,
and I,
I want the,
the college to,
to succeed.
(30:58):
II,
I,
uh I have a harder time,
you know,
uh keeping a positive attitude toward that experience for whatever reason.
Maybe,
maybe I wasn't at my last company long enough to,
to develop an emotional attachment to it.
But uh uh but so bitterness put up for uh you know,
in the wake of my layoff really wasn't uh wasn't an issue.
(31:19):
I think that's interesting what you said about the place before.
And this is,
I think an experience that most of us have is a lot of times when we're in a conflict with a person and it's been going on for a while,
we villainized them,
they're all bad,
you know.
And yet,
of course,
if we step back,
we realize no,
they're a human person and maybe they are objectively doing something that's harmful to me,
(31:40):
but they're a mix and so are organizations,
even organizations in which we really have been harmed.
It's typically the case that there are bright spots and there are things that we're grateful for and things that we loved and benefited from and flourished right alongside the difficult,
the mismanagement,
the baffling the the injustice that we suffer.
(32:04):
And uh it's,
I think it's kind of hard sometimes to,
sometimes we let places get a pass or we say they're worse than they actually are.
You know,
the whole place is a dumpster fires.
Like,
well,
no,
it was just my department or these departments.
So,
when you think about all the different places that you have worked,
what is the best experience you've had with a boss or a colleague?
(32:28):
And what was it?
That was so good about it.
Well,
um my current boss and my previous boss,
like in,
in my Ed Tech company are tied for the best bosses that I've ever had.
They're both fantastic and for,
for very similar reasons.
So in my previous job,
(32:49):
right,
I was new to Ed Tech,
I was new to product management and my uh my whole team was great and supportive.
But my immediate supervisor who,
who knew me before I came to work there,
she,
I was a bit of a known quantity for her and um but she also knew that I was transitioning and so she was so supportive and encouraging and celebrated.
(33:11):
My successes helped me,
uh you know,
figure out where I could grow and what I needed to do to uh to succeed,
help me navigate uh team dynamics since I was new to the,
the organization and the team,
just everything you would want in a boss and lo and behold,
I have another one like that in my current position.
(33:32):
Um Again,
I'm new to medical education.
She recognizes that,
but uh just like my previous boss,
she gives me room to make mistakes and trust me to take the initiative and is very complimentary uh about the,
the value that I bring and the ways that I help her do her job.
So both of those people make me feel good about um what I've done and what I can do and that confidence is invaluable.
(34:02):
I mean,
that,
that,
that helps you,
you know,
that makes you wanna come to work,
right?
It makes you wanna work hard and,
and,
and succeed.
So I've been very,
very fortunate in,
in my current job and my past job to have um supervisors who,
who,
who treat me that way.
That is so wonderful and I'm so happy that you've had those experiences and it just seems like such a no brainer when we feel welcomed,
(34:26):
when people light up,
they're happy to see us or they say things like they recognize the good that we have done and the good that we can do basic psychology tells us that that's going to make me want to do more and be more engaged and be more creative and collaborative and be about the mission of the organization.
(34:47):
So much of it isn't the job itself,
it's the people,
it's the climate,
what is going on here.
How am I being viewed?
Do they even want me here.
Are they gonna respect me?
Are they trusting me?
Are they micromanaging or out to lunch?
They are not even present.
How engaged are they?
(35:08):
You know,
we're always trying to figure out what's going on and when you're in an environment where it's just like a breath of fresh air,
then,
you know,
when we think about health of the body,
you know,
when you're in a healthy environment,
you're just,
it's like all of a sudden you're,
you're functioning and you're like,
wow,
this is what it could be like,
this is what um what it feels like to really be seen and freed in a way to be your best self and empowered to do those things that maybe you didn't even think about before.
(35:39):
Yeah,
absolutely.
That's,
that's so important and again,
contrasting it with the,
the college that I taught at in general.
I felt free to be myself at that um at that school.
And I,
I contributed,
I had a,
I had a very positive experience on the whole,
it did kind of sour toward the end unfortunately.
But um but I'm glad that I was there,
(36:01):
but there were moments where it wasn't all that I,
that I wanted it to be.
And just as you were talking,
I,
I was thinking about um my first year or two there.
Um As you know,
and as other people may remember from their time in higher Ed,
you have these end of semester course evaluations that the,
that the students do.
There is ample data to show that those evaluations are deeply flawed as instruments of,
(36:27):
of for evaluating uh teacher effectiveness or,
or,
or much of anything uh other than,
you know,
some form of customer satisfaction.
So anyway,
I got reviews uh that were ok in terms of like the number scores.
But for two straight semesters,
I had a student say that they felt disrespected by me and I was crushed because I went into that job wanting to be the professor that pushed his students.
(36:59):
But that also students liked,
like I wanted to be enthusiastic and positive and help them discover a passion for learning and for my discipline.
So I knew that I did not treat anybody disrespectfully,
at least intentionally,
like maybe uh there was something that was taken the wrong way or,
(37:21):
or,
or was unintentional,
something like that.
So frustrating because I,
I didn't know who it was.
I didn't know what incident they were um referring to and I got no support.
Like my,
my dean said,
well,
you know,
it's probably not a big deal,
but if it happens again,
then,
you know,
you probably won't get tender,
right?
No,
you know,
indication of how can I address this?
How can I uh I improve in,
(37:43):
in this?
And,
and my chair was,
was largely the,
the,
the same way.
He said,
well,
you gotta get your numbers up.
So do things that will get your,
you know,
change those threes into fours or something like that.
So I felt very unsupported by the people that really should have been,
uh,
supporting me.
So I ended up figuring it out on,
on my own and,
(38:04):
and my,
uh,
my numbers got better and I didn't really have,
uh,
those,
those comments anymore,
but,
but I felt like,
you know,
why are you taking the student's word for it?
Over,
over,
over mine,
right?
Why are you just assuming that,
you know,
that it's true that I,
that I treated them disrespectfully,
you know,
based on,
on these one and comments and why did those comments outweigh the positive comments that people said?
(38:28):
You know,
so it was very uh it was very frustrating.
Again,
it ended up not being AAA big issue for me.
I got tenure and I got promoted but uh but it was a sour note to,
to start out on that position and,
and again,
to contrast that with what I have now,
right?
People,
they,
they've got my back and,
and I don't get everything right?
(38:50):
But,
but when I make a mistake,
they,
you know,
they support me and,
and,
and help me see it as a,
as a learning opportunity.
That's such a good point.
When you think about teacher evaluations,
it's almost like taking the word on internet comments because,
you know,
so I was evaluated for many,
many years as well.
And like,
(39:10):
on rate my professor.com,
a lot of the comments,
I'd be like,
how does she,
how does she teach in heels?
And she's always wearing cute dresses and I'm like,
ok,
that's how I was being rated.
And,
um,
but it,
there are all these anonymous comments so you don't have the context and you have the student who showed up one or two times and now my university has gone to online evaluations and they're supposed to do them in all their classes.
(39:36):
And I've gotten evaluated for not being a very good math professor.
And I taught philosophy,
you know,
because students get confused and I mean,
why would you take seriously internet comments?
And I think that's a lot of what student reviews are and think about how dehumanizing that is to be told you're disrespectful with no context and no ability to make a change,
especially as,
(39:57):
you know,
when you get these comments,
it's right alongside of this is the best class I've ever had.
This is the worst I've ever had.
This person is very clear.
This person is so unclear and how are you supposed to navigate that?
And it's not just,
oh,
it's interesting,
you know,
what students think it has to do with promotion raises,
be that what they mean in,
(40:18):
in education?
But we wouldn't do that to anybody.
Right.
And,
and so how is that?
I'm pretty much against anonymous surveys anyway.
But,
and then the lack of support.
Right.
How,
how do I get better?
These are important,
very important and don't worry about it at the same time.
Yeah.
(40:39):
Yeah.
Course evaluations are,
as I said,
they're,
they're,
they're deeply flawed and it's ironic that colleges and universities which should be leading,
uh,
leading the way in terms of using data.
So,
in a sophisticated way,
use them in a very,
very flawed,
unsophisticated.
Right.
And I think it's because they have to do something and do these things generate numbers and we can pretend that numbers have meaning.
(41:05):
So that's,
that's what we use.
Well,
said,
Chris,
that's exactly what I think about numbers and let's just get a number and pretend it means something,
it's significant.
Mhm.
What do you think about conflicts that you've had in different places?
Can you tell us about a conflict that you had and,
and how you dealt with it,
how you resolved it?
(41:25):
Sure.
So I haven't had a lot of conflict.
Fortunately,
iii I get along with just about every,
but there was one incident that,
that comes to mind in my um philosophy job.
Uh So I was a member of the,
of the faculty and we were small college.
So all the faculty,
you know,
you either knew them or you knew someone who,
(41:46):
who,
who knew them.
So one day I,
I realized that a,
a colleague in another department uh had published a paper in what's called a predatory journal,
which if your listeners don't know what those are,
it's basically like these bogus journals that,
you know,
they send out spam email invitations to submit.
And it's,
(42:06):
it's,
it's a journal that publishes,
you know,
we see exhibitions in architecture and geography and chemical engineering and home economics,
right?
So they'll publish anything and they charge,
you know,
a few $100.
So it's a money maker and,
you know,
they promise peer review in five days,
right?
So for a real journal,
(42:27):
you,
you'd be lucky if you got comments back in a peer review judgment in five months,
right?
And so one of my colleagues in a different department had,
had,
had published in one of these,
these journals and she got uh an award for it.
We,
some years we would get a small uh monetary awards if you'd publish things.
And,
and uh and so she had been listed in the,
(42:48):
in the award recipients.
And,
and so the title of her journal Rang a Bell because I've been getting spam from them.
And um and so I,
and,
and I thought,
well,
that,
that sounds kind of bogus.
So I read up on predatory journals and,
and,
and learned about how big a problem they are and how widespread they are.
And so I thought,
well,
it's not really fair for her to get an a an award.
(43:11):
But,
you know,
if they've already been given out that that ship has sailed but then I realized she was also coming up for promotion,
she was gonna go up,
up to,
uh,
she was applying for a promotion to full professor.
And I thought if I were on the rank and,
and promotion committee,
uh sorry,
uh,
rank and tenure committee,
(43:32):
I would look at Scotts at someone who listed this kind of publication in their,
their application.
So I thought,
well,
maybe I should talk to her about it because given what I knew about her,
I figured she didn't really understand what was the nature of that,
of that journal.
At least I thought there was a good chance that she,
that she did it.
So she was walking past my office and I invited her in and said,
(43:53):
you know,
I know she published this article.
Um and I wanted you to know that,
that that journal actually had is,
is very disreputable and,
and here's what I found,
um I should add at this point that she was a sister of mercy uh at a sisters of mercy college.
So I accused the sisters of a sister of mercy of basically academic misconduct.
(44:16):
She did not receive my offer with grace and a plum she was ticked off and accused me of trying to,
you know,
undermine her and,
and spy on her and stuff like that.
But I felt it was important because,
you know,
I would want to know if I had published something in AAA journal that I thought was reputable is gonna help me get promoted and it turns out I was gonna do the opposite.
(44:40):
I would,
I would want to know.
So,
so I think I did the right thing and to,
to make that decision,
I also talked with one of my colleagues in the philosophy department who was also a sister of Mercy and an epic like,
is this,
is this right?
Should I,
am I sticking my nose in,
in someone else's business or is it,
is it would be a good idea for me to,
I talked to her and she,
(45:01):
she backed me up on,
on,
on my decision.
So I think I did the right thing.
It did not go as well as I'd hoped.
Um,
later on,
I think maybe she,
she got over it or,
or thought differently because,
um,
you know,
we were,
we were walking out months later,
uh,
you know,
to the parking lot and she engaged me,
(45:21):
a conversation seemed pretty friendly and,
and,
and I asked her,
so,
are we ok now?
And she said something kind of cryptic,
but so I think it ended up,
you know,
not permanently damaging our uh working relationship,
not that we had much of one anyway.
I think I did the right thing.
Um,
and I think I did it the right way but,
uh,
(45:41):
you know,
sometimes you do the right thing and it,
it doesn't turn out the way you the way.
You hope it's such a really good example.
Thank you for sharing that because many times we see something that we think is not right in some way.
And then we wonder,
is this my business?
Should I say something?
Is it courageous to say something or is it nosy to say something?
(46:07):
And so what are we supposed to do?
And a great thing to do is what you did is,
you know,
engage somebody in a,
in a,
uh a fruitful conversation,
right?
What should I do?
What would you do?
And it's always great to get in like,
what is an outside standard?
What is sort of the standard of practice and also the golden rule,
right?
(46:27):
What is it that we want?
And,
and many times,
well,
not many times it can happen that we don't get the response that we think we,
we think we're showing somebody a mercy and they don't see it that way.
And so it is important to get our intentions right?
To really think about how we're going to present the information,
(46:48):
but we're not in charge of anybody else,
right?
We don't get to decide how somebody else takes information,
but we are obviously in charge of following our conscience and trying to help.
And if we're not sure if we're meddling,
talking to somebody else and if somebody else in a variety of people think,
no,
that's just really not your business then being able to hear that as well.
(47:10):
Um But at the end of the day,
we just have we're living with ourselves and,
and what kind of person that we want to be and,
and how we want to be a colleague.
What does it mean to be a good colleague?
Yeah,
yeah.
Perspective taking I think is,
is,
is really important.
But just as you,
as you mentioned,
you got to supplement that sometimes with,
(47:30):
you know,
talking to a third party who can,
who can,
you know,
help you think twice about your motivations or about the likely outcomes or,
or whether this would be productive or not.
So,
Chris,
this is the last question I'd like to end on when you think about the world of work out,
you know,
in the next foreseeable future.
What do you think needs to happen so that not only is everyone treated with dignity and respect,
(47:54):
but they're encouraged to thrive and flourish.
Oh gosh,
how would I transform the uh the global workplace?
Um Well,
I'll say two things.
One,
it,
it,
the more we can make it human and less bureaucratic,
the better,
you know,
as a job seeker,
it was so dispiriting to have to upload my resume and then go through the A TS and,
(48:22):
you know,
re-enter stuff that was already in the,
the,
the resume and then you get the,
you know,
the,
the form email and um surely there are ways that we could simplify that process and make it less robotic uh and,
and more respectful of uh of the human beings who are caught in the system.
And I know it's not easy for reviewers of applications,
(48:44):
either they're,
they're flooded with applications.
But anything that we can do to make the workplace,
uh more human and,
and less,
less rigid and form driven,
the better and then on,
on the,
the part of workers themselves,
the one bit of advice that I've come across that I think is important,
(49:04):
not only for workers,
but for,
for people is assume positive intention,
assume that the people that you are encountering are coming at what they're doing from a good place and,
and trying to do their,
their best or at least a,
a AAA good job.
(49:25):
And it's so hard to do that sometimes when you don't know the person who's causing difficulty for you,
when you see them doing something or saying something that doesn't make sense.
I encounter this all the time.
We've had services rolled out by its here,
right?
That haven't gone all that smoothly and it's easy for people to,
you know,
go their hands and say,
(49:45):
well,
why don't they care about us,
right?
Why are they making us do all this stuff?
Well,
in some cases,
there's probably a very good reason.
It's just the reason isn't apparent to you.
And so if you start by giving people the benefit of the doubt and then asking,
you know,
what,
what is,
what's the real reason that they're,
they're doing this and if people do that for you then I think we'll have a lot less conflict or the conflict that we do have will be a lot more manageable.
(50:10):
So I've tried to maintain that attitude.
Sometimes it's easier.
Sometimes it's harder.
But I think if everybody had that attitude we would all be a lot better off.
Oh,
I absolutely agree.
I love that because you can't solve a problem with the villain.
You could solve a problem with another person.
Yeah.
Well,
Chris,
thank you so much for your time.
It's been just a joy chatting with you.
(50:31):
My pleasure,
Chris,
thank you so much for being on conflict managed.
What a joy it is to catch up with you and so pleased that you're doing well and you love where you are right now.
Conflict Managed is produced by third party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Mary Brown.
You can find us online at three P Conflict restoration.com.
(50:52):
Come back.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at work tips to ensure failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do and start a conversation about what to do instead.
What does it mean to be professional these days?
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot.
(51:12):
And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it until next time,
take care.
So.
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