February 6, 2024 • 49 mins
🎙️This week, we're thrilled to have Vanedda Prince Webb, a seasoned private practice attorney and small business owner, sharing invaluable insights.
Topics we delve into:
- Setting and preserving healthy boundaries
- Avoiding getting entangled in others' conflicts
- Recognizing when it's not about you and responding wisely
- Strategically designing workspaces for positive outcomes
- Keeping your balance in challenging situations
Ready to enhance your conflict management skills? Join the conversation now! 🎧✨
Vanedda Prince Webb has been a dedicated solo practitioner in private practice in Dyersburg, Tennessee since 2008, specializing in family law cases within Dyer County and surrounding areas. Licensed to practice law in the state of Tennessee since 1992, she has extensive experience representing clients in trial and appellate courts, including the Tennessee Supreme Court, federal court, and various civil and criminal cases. Vanedda has also served as an Assistant Public Defender, a law clerk for an appellate judge, and actively participates in continuing legal education.
In addition to her legal career, Vanedda is deeply engaged in her community. Since 2019, she has served as Alderman at Large for the City of Dyersburg, contributing to committees focused on finance, public safety, and local government. As the President of the West Tennessee Legal Services Board of Directors since 2021, she continues to play a crucial role in promoting access to legal services. Her involvement extends to various organizations, including Kiwanis of Dyersburg, the Southern Accent Chapter of the American Business Women’s Association, and her church, First Baptist Church in Dyersburg. Vanedda, alongside her husband Lance Webb, an Assistant District Attorney, takes pride in their three adult sons and enjoys the roles of "Gigi" and "Big Papi" to their three brilliant grandchildren.
Conflict Managed is hosted by Merry Brown and produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services (3pconflictrestoration.com).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is All right.
I got it under wraps.
Now,
get a sound site uptight.
I right question do.
(00:26):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
Today on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Vanedda Webb. Vanedda has been a dedicated solo practitioner in private practice in Dyersburg,
Tennessee since 2008,
specializing in family law cases within Dyer County and surrounding areas.
Licensed to practice law in the state of Tennessee.
Since 1992.
She has extensive experience representing clients in trial and appellate courts including the Tennessee Supreme Court,
(00:52):
Federal Court and various civil and criminal cases.
Vanedda has also served as an assistant public defender,
a law clerk for an appellate judge and actively participated and continuing legal education.
In addition to her legal career,
Vaneddais deeply engaged in her community since 2019.
She has served as alderman at large for the city of Dyersburg,
contributing to committees focused on finance public safety and local government as the president of the West Tennessee Legal Services Board of Directors.
(01:20):
Since 2021 she continues to play a crucial role in promoting access to legal services.
Her involvement extends to various organizations including Kiwanis of Dyersburg,
the Southern Accent Chapter of the American Business Women's Association and her church First Baptist Church in Dyersburg. Vanedda alongside her husband Lance Webb,
who is an assistant district attorney,
(01:42):
takes pride in their three adult sons and enjoys the roles of Gigi and Big Poppy to their three brilliant grandchildren.
Good morning,
Vanedda and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Well,
thank you for having me.
So delighted to talk with you today on this very cold morning.
Always enjoy January and the first snow of the year.
(02:04):
But once the first snow is here,
I'm ready for it to go and to move on to spring.
Yes,
I feel the same.
I'm from California,
so I prefer to see the snow at a distance to visit it.
But no,
I live in the south,
which isn't supposed to have this kind of weather,
but we still get it every year.
So.
Well,
we,
we have a lovely change of seasons.
(02:26):
That's right.
Well,
let's get right into it.
And we tell us about the very first job you ever had as a young person.
Well,
I think the first job I had working with the public outside of babysitting was,
um,
at a fast food restaurant that served tacos.
I was about 15 and it was a new restaurant and we were all learning together.
(02:49):
So,
what was that experience like?
Well,
of course,
as a young person,
it was,
it was new to me and the,
the fellow that was the manager,
he was learning as well and it was a good experience.
Uh I enjoyed my co my my coworkers,
some things were difficult just because it fit everything is,
(03:11):
is on your learning curve,
whether it's running the cash register or taking orders.
And um I'll just say this,
I think anybody that works training teenagers at work deserves some kind of recognition as a,
as a hero.
Um,
teenagers are,
are uh difficult to,
to train and to work with.
(03:32):
But,
um,
I think they were very patient and very kind with me and I always look back on that fondly.
That's absolutely right.
I mean,
a teenager,
you know,
when you're a teenager,
you know,
the most you'll ever know.
Right.
And so,
I mean,
I love teenagers.
Uh I've had a few and they are fantastic and all of us have those areas in which that we shine and those that make it a little bit harder,
(03:59):
but sometimes it's hard to instruct individuals.
And then as you said,
with your manager,
you know,
being new in a new organization,
how lovely that they were patient and kind.
What else do we want from managers?
I mean,
patience and kindness.
I,
I think that that gets the best results and particularly with people who are new in the workforce uh to know that if you make a mistake,
(04:23):
um that,
that they,
they get that,
that they're,
they're making mistakes too.
Yeah,
absolutely.
We're all humans together.
That's a good standard to set.
So,
where did you go from there?
I did several things in high school.
I,
I worked,
I waited tables eventually.
By the time I was 18 I worked in radio.
(04:44):
Began,
uh,
in a small station at Fulton.
I probably was 1617,
old enough to drive.
And then,
uh,
shortly after I,
uh,
I finished high school,
the station in Mayfield hired me on a part time basis to work nights and weekends.
And,
um,
then when I went to college at UT Martin,
(05:05):
uh one of the stations in Union City was not kind enough to hire me.
And,
and so that became my job for several years.
I did some other things too,
worked in retail,
as I said,
waited tables,
uh,
in addition,
but my main job was working at the radio station.
What did you do?
I was a DJ,
I was on air talent.
If you could call it talent.
I don't know that you can call it that.
(05:26):
But the,
uh,
but I did work nights and weekends and then eventually,
uh,
as I progressed in college,
I transferred more into selling radio advertising.
And that was probably a very formative experience for me.
I learned how much I enjoyed helping people and particularly clients and developing their,
(05:47):
their,
uh a campaigns and working with them.
And if they saw results,
it was very satisfactory,
satisfying to me,
I have this impression and I'm not sure why that radio is a really difficult industry to work in.
Was that your experience or,
or not so much?
At times,
at times,
I think that um certain people with certain personalities are drawn to different types of occupations and radio people are very creative people and sometimes it was high drama.
(06:19):
Right.
You know,
I think that's such a good point.
When we look at different sorts of occupations,
it's very important to know where our natural affinities are or what kind of person that we are.
And then if you're gonna have an organization or,
or a kind of job that is creative,
very draws dramatic sorts of people.
There are ways to mitigate issues that come up by knowing that about your organization and not clamping down on creativity,
(06:46):
but making the environment so that people can thrive in that.
And if there is sort of inherent kind of drama again,
putting in systems so that it doesn't become negative ideally,
as we know,
uh many people just live with the negative drama because they don't have a system to deal with inevitable conflict that happens.
(07:09):
Well,
in,
in truth,
it was such a fun job.
Uh you take the positive and the negative and so the the job was so fun.
I was willing to put up with the drama for the sake of the fun,
right?
I mean,
and when we talk about good work environments sometimes.
Uh,
it can be easy to talk about this utopia,
but it doesn't exist.
(07:29):
Right.
And so in every job there's,
there's good,
good and bad aspects for sure.
And I don't want to leave the impression that I worked with bad people.
I didn't,
I worked with some fabulous people and I learned so much from them and they in turn,
were very patient with a young person learning their way in the workforce.
(07:52):
And I really do appreciate that and I appreciate them the opportunity to,
uh,
grow professionally and,
and I wanted to try my hand at selling advertising.
They were very open to that and,
and allowed me to,
to do that and,
and were patient with my mistakes.
(08:12):
That's wonderful.
I mean,
again,
that sort of patience and kindness.
And I also don't want to,
I'm not trying to throw any radio people under the bus because I know some and I think they're fabulous.
So,
uh,
it is though interesting,
I think when we look at the different kinds of professions.
So if you're a teacher or a lawyer,
a doctor,
a firefighter,
a radio person,
whatever kind of field you're in,
(08:32):
they,
there are in general different kinds of personalities that are drawn to that.
And we have that upside and the side that needs to be made,
made sure that it's a healthy environment for everybody.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And sometimes just knowing that if that this is part and parcel of what you work in.
So you better develop a skill set for handling it.
(08:55):
Well,
oh,
that's an excellent point.
It's so important to know the environment,
as you said.
I can't.
Yeah.
Excellent.
So,
what did you major in,
in college?
I was a broadcast communications major at UT Martin.
And then you went into law.
So,
from UT Martin you went to law school?
Why?
Law?
Well,
(09:15):
as I said,
I worked in uh radio sales and I got to be about a calendar year away from graduation.
And it dawned on me,
it was kind of an epiphany.
I woke up one morning,
I looked at my,
my,
my credits and how far I had to go and said in a year from now,
I'll be completing this degree.
(09:36):
And you know what,
while I have enjoyed radio and I enjoy broadcasting,
I don't think I want to do this,
the rest of my life that in inherent in that field to advance you go to bigger and bigger markets.
And I'm not a big town girl,
I'm a small town girl.
And I want to find a profession where I can enjoy living in a small town.
(09:59):
And so I began to explore what my options were.
My dad was an accountant in Mayfield,
Kentucky.
He's still an accountant today.
He's just retired and I talked to him,
I talked to my professors,
I talked to people I worked with and we began a group conversation or meet with several people and exploring what I liked and what I didn't like and what I might like to do it came to the conclusion that law school might be a good fit for me.
(10:30):
And that,
because I so enjoyed working with clients that the practice of law might be something that I enjoyed.
And absolutely,
I did.
I've loved practicing law for this past 30 plus years and it was a very good decision,
but it,
it came out of my experiences selling advertising.
And by that time having enough experience in the workforce,
(10:51):
even as a young person to say,
I like these things.
I don't like this.
I need to craft a career that suits me.
That sounds so mature.
And I wish that for everybody but young people who start in one way and realize this isn't what I want to do.
Did you mean,
did you feel a sort of trepidation?
(11:12):
I'm almost done with this major,
but I don't want to do it.
Did you,
how did you look outside of yourself to say no,
I want to do something else.
And I'm gonna find this group conversation to help me move forward.
I think it was,
it was just an epiphany one morning and,
and I was very blessed and fortunate that I had people in my circle who could help me with that.
(11:34):
Then when I went to them and I laid it all out and that includes uh professors in the broadcasting department at Et Martin when I said,
hey,
this is where I am and I think I wanna change courses and I really don't want to uh get another undergraduate degree.
I want to use what I have.
(11:56):
They were very open to helping me.
Uh Doctor Gerald Ogg was absolutely a wonderful mentor to me.
And he and Doctor Gary Steinke and several other people were just,
and then they,
they um referred me to Doctor Ko and,
and Doctor Justine to,
to kind of discuss what law school would look like and what,
what my law school options were and what would be best for me so that I could do what I wanted to do.
(12:21):
I just want to give a shout out to any young person listening.
Anybody in college get to know your professors,
the more you have a circle.
If you're out of college,
you can reach back to those professors or wherever you are.
Get a group of mentors,
people that you can talk with.
So that whenever an issue comes up,
we never know what it might be.
(12:42):
And this wasn't a negative issue.
It was just what do I do next?
You have a circle that can give you guidance.
So that's wonderful.
What a gift.
Oh,
it was.
It was.
And that's one of the reasons why I just my shout out to,
to UT Martin.
I've always encouraged young people in West Tennessee to consider UT Martin as a serious option because the administration and the professors on campus are generally genuinely very interested in their students and get to know them well.
(13:13):
And that's a great asset in life.
I know now this is turning into a advertisement for UTM.
But I talk there for a very long time.
My husband teaches there.
One of our kids went there and I'm actually back teaching this semester because there's a professor on sabbatical.
And so I'm taking his philosophy courses so many times when we think about what is a good education look like.
(13:34):
We think Ivy League,
we think name brand recognition and there's something to that.
But I would encourage people to look deeper what,
what's really going on,
what are the opportunities you're going to get?
How involved are the professors.
And so some place like UT Martin is,
I mean,
such a gem.
But no matter where you are,
if you are at a 60,000 plus university,
(13:56):
you can decide to go to office hours,
you can decide to make yourself known and their benefits ripple out for your whole life,
your whole career.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And the importance of networking in general.
I mean,
I think all of our life is about networking in a positive way are our relationships.
(14:17):
The quality of our relationships has to do with the quality of our life and so making good relationships,
helping one another.
I mean,
that's,
that's the fabric of,
I think what makes a good life.
So you went to law school and then you came back to Dyersburg?
No.
Uh,
my husband is from Middle Tennessee.
That's really where we thought we would go and stay.
(14:39):
But,
um,
I love Nashville.
Nashville is an exciting area and has been for over 30 years.
Lots and lots of growth in Nashville.
But,
um,
the traffic to and from Nashville has an impact on your family life and the quality of life.
And at some point,
my husband and I decided that our best bet was to move to an area I was more familiar with.
(15:02):
In West Tennessee,
we purchased a small private practice in the India City just there for several years.
And in West Tennessee ever since.
And I just can't imagine living anywhere else.
Yes,
I've been here for 20 plus years and,
and I love this area as well.
So when you think about the people that you've worked with different colleagues,
(15:25):
different work situations that you've had,
what strikes you as the best situation,
the best colleague,
boss.
And what was it?
That was so good about it for you.
Well,
uh for the majority of my uh career,
I have been in a sole practitioner.
Uh means I,
I either run my own firm or,
(15:46):
or just been in an office by myself.
Uh That doesn't mean I don't have colleagues.
It doesn't mean I don't have accountability and people I answer to,
but that is my preferred way to work.
Now,
having said that I have had the opportunity to work for some amazing people and some amazing environments.
After I had practiced for a period of time,
(16:09):
I became a law clerk for an appellate court.
Judge,
Judge Joe Riley was on the Court of Appeals and uh working for Judge Riley was a great experience.
He had a excellent way of organizing workflow and the complex issues uh that we had to deal with in that environment.
(16:31):
He helped my legal writing.
So,
so much most people,
if they are going to be a uh appellate court law clerk do that right out of law school.
And so for me to have some years of practice under my belt and then come into that environment was unusual,
but I found it was very,
very helpful to me because I had a greater appreciation for what he was able to teach me.
(16:53):
But I have adopted or tried to adopt many of his methods for managing workflow to work smarter and not just harder,
we all would work hard.
But if you're not working smart,
it doesn't matter how hard you're working,
that's,
that's such a great experience to have been on your own and then be able to be with somebody and see how they did it like,
(17:17):
oh,
I want to do that too.
Yeah,
it was really,
really good.
I've had some other amazing environments to,
to get to come in and,
and work in for a period of time where I don't have to be the boss where somebody else can be.
And,
um,
it's always fun to work in a team.
Uh,
and because I'm a sole practitioner most of the time,
(17:38):
any time I'm able to work in a team,
it's a nice change of pace for me.
So,
what about even though that you,
you primarily have worked for yourself?
Certainly you've come into conflicts with peers.
How have you dealt with that?
Can you tell us about a time and how you pushed through?
(17:59):
Well,
one thing to remember,
I,
I do primarily domestic relations in my private practice.
That's divorces,
child custody,
adoption,
visitation,
child support.
And those are very emotional issues.
Uh,
of course,
when people are in the court system,
they have a conflict and it's really easy as attorneys to get sucked into that conflict too.
(18:25):
That's a,
I call it a rookie mistake happens to everybody.
You've got to watch out for it and learning how to maintain your equilibrium.
Maintain your cool,
to put a good boundary between the conflict the clients are having and your professional relationship with the other attorney,
(18:49):
the judge,
uh,
the other people that are involved in resolving the conflict don't become part of the conflict.
So how do you do that?
How do you maintain that professional distance when you are a human person?
And you have thoughts,
feelings and beliefs and emotions.
It's a work in progress.
Uh But,
(19:10):
but you gotta keep that at the forefront that this is hard for the people that you're representing.
It's hard for the person on the other side.
And also to realize that the gravity of what we're dealing with.
If I in my uh humanity get involved and I behave poorly that may severely impair my client's long term working relationship with another parent,
(19:40):
they may have Children together.
And,
and if I do that,
if I throw gas on their fire,
then I really haven't done them a good service.
But how we,
we do it is we learn what appropriate behavior is.
We learn how to establish boundaries with ourselves and with others.
(20:01):
If someone else is uh losing their cool,
how do you,
you know,
determine that I'm gonna treat them graciously?
I'm not gonna respond in kind,
I'm gonna respond well.
And if I have to take a break,
come back to it.
And I've been really fortunate as a young attorney that I had more mature,
experienced attorneys to model that for me and really appreciate folks that were able to say time out,
(20:28):
let's take a break or let's step away from this conversation and come back to it when we can have a clear hit.
Those.
That's an excellent idea for de escalation in the moment.
What about as you prepare if you have an inkling that this is going to be emotionally difficult for you.
Is there are any techniques that you use to prepare to center yourselves that you can be present and professional for your clients.
(20:53):
Things like to say,
well,
this is not my divorce,
this is theirs,
this is about them.
Um of all the people in this room today,
I will be the least important person there,
not about me and uh how to put someone else first.
And there are days that we fall short and we have to apologize.
And I have found that,
(21:15):
uh,
when you realize that you need to make an apology to make it,
to make it.
Well,
we all know what a good apology is and what an apology is not.
Apology is not.
Well,
if you hadn't done this or if you hadn't done that,
I would.
No,
no,
no.
It's all about what I did and being specific.
And if you're like me and you don't really like to eat crow,
you have to eat a little of it.
(21:36):
It'll make you lose your taste for it.
Yes,
absolutely.
And because of what you're dealing with,
it really is very high stakes.
And so being mindful of that,
I think one thing that I have learned in,
in my practice of working with conflict resolution is my background is as a people pleaser and a fixer,
right?
And,
(21:56):
uh,
and going into conflict resolution,
it's absolutely not that because it isn't my conflict.
I'm not living with the results of this agreement.
I'm not working here with these people.
It's not me.
And even if I was there,
what works for me may not work for somebody else.
Exactly.
(22:17):
Exactly.
And that's what we have to remember.
It's not us.
It has no reflection on us.
I'm gonna try to give my clients my best efforts and to zealously represent them and to give them objective advice to the best of my ability.
But when that case closes by necessity,
(22:38):
I'm putting that away and I'm moving on to the next matter.
They are not,
they are living with uh the financial consequences or the consequences within their family.
And so just being respectful of that,
I 100% agree with what you're saying.
Imagine if you were working in an office with a variety of other people,
(23:02):
how do you see those principles being played out in a team environment?
Well,
I think one of the things is,
is to learn what your role is,
your level of authority and to stay in your lane.
If it's your job,
to tell people to show up on time,
then you have to do your job and you have to tell people to show up on time.
(23:24):
If that's not your job,
then that's not your job and stay out of it.
We talk about me being a fixer and a people pleaser and I think that's a,
a,
it can be a very good thing,
but it's it's,
it's a very common,
a common characteristic of a very kind people who mean.
Well,
but we can take on that role when it's not our role.
(23:47):
And we need to learn,
hey,
what is my role?
And I need to,
I need to set my boundary and stay in it.
And if I set my boundary and stay in it,
then it's more likely that I will stay out of conflict.
Not entirely,
You can still,
you can remember.
It takes two people to argue.
Yes,
I love that so much clarity and acceptance.
(24:07):
So first of all,
we do need to know what my role,
you know,
what is my role?
Am I the person who's enforcing the rules?
Am I the person setting the rules?
Am I just following?
And I'm not enforcing anything,
I'm just,
I'm doing me.
And so knowing what's going on and then accepting it,
I think for so many people,
(24:28):
especially I think for people who want to fix the world,
like I just want a throne and I want to fix the world,
I have this very strong conception of justice.
And when I see even minor things that I think are unjust uh this onboarding didn't go right.
This didn't happen,
that didn't happen.
It shouldn't be that way.
I had this very strong sense of how things quote unquote should be.
(24:52):
And so when,
what I have to do is I just have to say,
OK,
Mary,
this is the situation whether or not you think it should be.
This is reality.
What are you going to do?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And,
uh,
when I learned the concept of boundaries,
it changed my life for the better it changed my professional life.
(25:17):
Uh,
in my personal life,
I had a wonderful family,
great,
great parents,
but we never used the word boundaries at our house.
And,
um,
when I first encountered that concept,
it,
um took me a little while to wrap my head around.
It's not that hard.
But once II,
I kind of clued into that.
(25:39):
I think it's improved my relationships.
Yeah,
I think you're so right.
You know,
boundaries that we talk a lot about that.
You know,
my boundaries are boundaries,
boundary setting and it isn't difficult,
but it is difficult to practice,
especially if you're not used to setting them and enforcing them because many times we think especially in today's climate,
this is my boundary.
You have to keep it instead of this is my boundary.
(26:03):
I'm in charge of it.
And so if I feel violated or it's been violated,
I decide what I'm going to do next,
not you.
Because when I say you have to fix it,
it's,
it is a victim mentality.
It is giving up our power instead of boundaries are supposed to be the opposite.
They're supposed to be empowering,
they're supposed to help us to communicate with ourselves and others.
(26:25):
Exactly.
We,
we,
we can't fix anyone else,
they get to do them.
We can only do ourselves,
we can only fix ourselves.
And so if the,
if the situation needs fixing,
is there anything that I have the authority to do that I'm supposed to be doing to fix it?
Uh And then if not,
(26:45):
what is my response going to be and what would the appropriate response to be?
Sometimes I find myself asking who do I want to be in this situation?
And how do I make that happen?
I love that.
Who do I want to be in this situation?
It's very forward looking.
And that's the thing is we're curating our life intentionally or unintentionally.
(27:07):
And so if we're not sure who we want to be,
well,
what is it that we want?
We need to have that vision so that we can bring it about if we don't have a vision for ourselves,
how are we ever gonna get there?
That's right.
Very seldom could we say who I really want to be is the,
the woman who,
uh,
is having the hissy fit who has lost control of herself and the situation.
(27:30):
That's not who I want to be.
So,
let's step away from that and decide who I'm gonna be.
Absolutely.
That's so true.
Most of us don't want to,
to be that person.
Yes,
absolutely.
I would imagine after 30 years of practicing law and the kind of law that you do,
and I know you have a strong sense of justice and right and wrong.
(27:52):
And you see people many times at their worst with going through something very traumatic and,
and being able to still be light,
not and not control them to do what you think is gonna be best.
And you've got all this experience like,
man,
if you go down this path,
it's not going to have the best outcome.
(28:14):
So being able to sit in that,
well,
what can I do in this situation in my professional capacity to,
to be a peacemaker,
to be,
to be AAA light to them.
How do you,
how do you balance that?
Well,
you,
you do,
you have to say what,
for example,
if I have a client and I realize that they're contributing to a conflict,
(28:39):
they may not realize it,
they,
they may not see it uh because they're in it.
Um And there are some people that you can give constructive advice and they will take it and run with it.
And there are other people that once you've given it,
that's all you can do.
(29:00):
You can't,
I didn't take them to raise.
And so if they choose not to,
then we have to,
to deal with it as best we can.
But it's also my job as,
as an attorney is to give our clients objective advice.
And sometimes that objective advice is when you do this,
(29:21):
you're escalating your conflict,
perhaps you want to step away or or do something different.
Maybe I frequently encourage clients to go to counseling because when we deal with difficulties,
uh a good counselor or a good therapist can give us a skill set for addressing a difficult personality that we have to deal with or a difficult situation or addressing our own frustrations that our uh our own grief,
(29:52):
our own sadness,
our own sense of loss that our relationships did not turn out like we wanted them to be.
And,
and a good counselor or a good therapist can give them a skill set.
I can't fix for them.
Yeah.
But,
but,
but then they have to decide what they want to do and if they want to take a course of action,
that's legal that within the bounds of ethics that I could support,
(30:12):
it's,
it's nothing inappropriate.
Then if that's what they want to do,
that's their choice.
This is their matter,
not mine.
Yeah.
And that's,
I think very important when we start looking at what I can fix,
as you said,
I can only fix myself.
And so when we're in a work conflict,
(30:33):
many times people want to fix other people's personalities.
This,
they are driving me crazy because of who they are.
And that's I believe inappropriate.
Uh We ought to focus on the problem and not the person.
And I find that very freeing.
I don't have to make this person in my image.
I don't have to craft this person.
(30:54):
So that I will invite them to my birthday party.
But if they are,
if there's something happening,
that's problematic when it goes to the work environment,
then I can address that and I can take ownership of me.
And I think that's a part of fixing me,
me looking around and saying,
what are my boundaries?
Why are these my boundaries?
(31:15):
What am I doing?
And when I feel there's a boundary violation,
how am I going to act?
Not waiting for somebody else.
But how am I going to move forward?
And this is all about personal efficacy and trusting people to be adults that adults make decisions for good or for ill,
but it's their decision to make.
(31:36):
It's not my life to live and it's not my decision.
And I think too that uh as we mature,
we learn that not everybody sees things like we do.
Uh Our approach is not the only approach and to know yourself.
One of the things in the last several years that I've learned is really important is uh the difference between if you're extroverted or if you're introverted that that can have a huge impact on your own personality and how you perceive other people and to be sensitive to the fact that if somebody is introverted,
(32:11):
there's gonna be things that bother them that the extrovert is just,
it's just gonna pass them on by.
They don't even know that they've,
they've done it and uh and vice versa,
that the extrovert is gonna be expecting things of the introvert,
but the introvert can't provide to them because they,
they are trying to meet their own need.
And,
and that's just one of many types of personality differences that we just have to be mindful that other people perceive the world differently.
(32:38):
So when you were a clerking,
you talked about the judge having really good organizational skills so that you can work smarter and get more work done in an efficient way.
Yes,
organizational structures are very important.
What do you think when you think about a good work environment,
what are some important organizational structures so that there are healthy environments?
(33:05):
Well,
uh and,
and,
and again,
it's different things for different people.
When I am working on a writing project or a legal research project or I'm preparing documents,
I need quiet,
I need to be left alone.
Iii I need to,
(33:26):
to have space to do the work without interruption so that,
that I can focus on that.
And frankly,
that's a great work environment for me up to a point.
But if I stay in that environment for entirely too long without interaction with other people,
I'm just enough of an extrovert that I lose my energy.
(33:49):
I think sometimes though being physically comfortable and for,
for someone to understand,
do I do well with a lot of interaction with people or do I not?
And sometimes we don't have a choice about that there are certain places you're gonna work that,
that you're gonna have lots of interaction with people to the extent that we uh are leaders and,
or we are the boss and we are creating a work environment,
(34:12):
think about what we're asking people to do and to realize that some of our employees are going to need uh um when,
when the,
the physical work environment is draining on them,
how do we give them a break?
Is there something we can do that makes sense uh to maintain their level of energy or their ability to work for us?
(34:39):
So if I have a,
an assistant and they're working on a project that requires some concentration,
what can I do to give them an environment where they're not being interrupted?
Can I know enough about myself to ask for the environment where I'm not interrupted?
And at the same time,
there are times that I need to say I,
I need um I need to have some human interaction and uh let's do that before.
(35:05):
It's not interfering with our productivity.
Self reflection seems to be the name of the game.
And it's such a simple question that many of us don't really ask.
Such as what is the physical environment that works for me?
Given the kind of work I'm doing when I'm writing,
I like to listen to certain kinds of music.
(35:27):
But when I'm editing,
I can't listen to music,
there's a lot of things that II,
I need a certain level of concentration and writing in the act of writing.
The music gives me a concentration.
It's only like certain music though that I know so well.
And it becomes like this background noise that helps me to get really into it.
(35:48):
But as soon as I'm editing,
I need nothing.
I don't want any sort of distraction and I know that about myself.
And,
you know,
there's a simple question that that listeners can ask themselves is what is most conducive for me in this work environment?
And then to be curious,
what about my boss?
(36:09):
What about my coworkers?
Do I know how they work best if I'm frustrated with the way they're working?
Do I even know if they have the right kind of equipment environment support to get done,
whatever needs to get done and have I had that kind of conversation?
(36:30):
I wonder how many conflicts in the workplace really stem from the fact that someone is being asked to do something in a physical environment that is not conducive to the work they're being asked to do or that they're not given all the tools they need.
And that's the frustration.
(36:50):
Absolutely.
When I think about design,
human design and then I think of whoever came up with these open clans,
these like,
you know,
it's just this giant floors and first they have like these dividers and now there's just giant tables I think.
Have you met a human person before.
I mean,
to understand people and their need for space and all these people are on the phone or they're,
(37:17):
or they're doing thought work and you've got them right next to somebody eating a tuna sandwich.
You know,
I mean,
it doesn't make any sense in leadership.
We have to be mindful of that.
Are we,
are we imposing things that are counterproductive right there is this um video that's going around about a particular giant company that had put together a video as to why everybody needs to come back into the office.
(37:43):
And the video which was made maybe a month ago,
uh it looks like it was made in the eighties and it's,
I'm not saying that people ought not be physically in the office or that they ought not be away from the office.
Yeah,
I,
I have different thoughts about hybrid and completely remote and in person.
I think it depends on who you are in your work.
(38:06):
But what's very important I think is being honest and really understanding the individual within the organization,
you have the organizational structure.
But if you have to make blanket statements about everybody needs to be in the office,
you clearly don't understand the individual people and the work they do.
(38:27):
And this particular organization has to be happens to be a,
a global organization.
So in the office with somebody who's in,
you know,
another country,
different time zones,
misunderstands and people when you don't pay attention to their bodies,
when you don't pay attention to who they are outside of work,
(38:47):
when you don't really take into consideration something like commute or the work environment,
what do you get?
You get,
you're not working smarter,
you're not treating people excellently.
And so what do you expect?
You,
you know,
you make a video like that,
you will get ridiculed because of,
I mean,
(39:07):
I don't think anyone should be ridiculed but you're going to get below back because you're not treating people well.
Well,
it's,
uh,
it's just something to be mindful of that,
that what may be underlying,
it may be that their needs aren't being met and that can be true in all kinds of environments.
I know that,
that in the courtroom we have to be mindful of other people's,
(39:31):
their level of safety.
They have to feel safe.
If there's been violence in a relationship,
we need to make sure that everyone feels safe that if uh,
the temperature is too hot or too cold,
I'm not talking about just kinda,
I mean,
it,
it extremes,
it may make it difficult to function.
(39:52):
I might be ok.
Working through lunch,
my colleague that has diabetes probably doesn't need to work through lunch.
They probably need to,
to,
to stay on their eating schedule or take their medicine or,
or,
and,
and,
and I'm not limited to diabetes,
but we need to be mindful of that.
And sometimes in the legal community there has been a kind of culture of,
(40:13):
oh,
just push through it,
just push through it.
And it's ok if I want me,
if I wanna push myself through it,
that's on me.
But if I want to push you through it,
that's different.
If you're sick,
I need to be sensitive to that.
If you have a physical need,
I need to be sensitive to.
That.
Courtroom is hard enough place.
(40:34):
You don't have to make it hard.
Yeah,
absolutely.
This idea of setting the standard and then if I want to go above the standard,
that's fine.
So we come to offices with all these expectations and at the end of the day,
we're more than our work,
but certainly more than our conflicts.
We are about who are we as human persons and how are we seeing others showing up for others and showing up for ourselves?
(41:02):
And it goes down to the temperature,
it goes down to,
you know,
the physical environment and the psychological environment that we are creating for good or for ill because we are always telling people how we ought to be treated.
We're always telling people obviously how we're treating them and what's important and organizations are doing the same.
(41:24):
Do you really follow your values?
You know,
are you really on mission if you are,
this is,
does not seem to be an alignment.
If it is an alignment,
you need to articulate clearly often why this is a best practice that's respecting everybody.
It's not something that comes naturally to everyone.
(41:44):
And it,
it,
it certainly for most of us that,
that are mature,
it's a work in progress.
Uh,
we're not gonna hit it spot on every day by any means that we all send and fall short.
But,
but it's certainly a goal to strive for that.
We be mindful of other people's needs.
And I think too,
when you,
you said I'm more than the job,
(42:05):
I'm more than just what I do for a living.
I think when we can reach the point that we can see ourselves beyond what our occupation is.
I think that just seeing yourself is just what you do for a living is um it leaves AAA door wide open for dysfunction to start.
(42:26):
And I also think at the beginning,
so I have three sons and one of them is really struggling with what he wants to do with his life.
And because especially I think in your twenties,
thirties,
forties,
you are.
There's this tendency to want to define yourself by your profession.
And who am I?
If I don't have a particular profession,
(42:47):
who am I if I don't have that kind of identity while we want everyone to be gainfully employed and we want everyone to do work that resonates with them.
There is this,
this feeling that something is wrong because I'm not in love with a particular profession.
And therefore I don't get to say,
you know,
I'm a philosopher,
(43:07):
I'm a lawyer.
I'm a,
what,
you know,
if they don't feel that and that causes a lot of anxiety for people,
if they can't fill in that blank with something that is a stamp of approval from society.
Yes,
that's a very,
it's a very kind and,
and,
and for,
as we,
as when we're younger we're,
we're prone to that.
Uh,
and,
(43:28):
and I can think,
well,
it's,
somebody might say it's easy for you to say Veneta,
you found your occupation.
You did it for 30.
You've done it for over 30 years.
You've,
you've been,
you've had,
uh,
the fortune of,
of,
of working for yourself and being able to do this for a living.
And so that's easy for you to say,
but we all just need to find it.
Think about if,
(43:48):
if I didn't do this,
would it really matter?
Would I still be the same type of person?
And my thought is II,
I would certainly hope so.
I would certainly hope that the things that are,
that are,
that are my strengths,
would be my strengths no matter what I did for a living.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And the things that I don't do well properly would not do those well,
(44:09):
no matter what I was doing,
it's so common for,
for young people to say,
I,
I don't know what I want to do.
And that's ok.
This is not my favorite or that just doesn't fit for me.
I just too much of a,
a too much of a struggle uphill.
And we all have those things that we as you come to know yourself.
(44:30):
You say,
man,
like for me,
technology is a challenge,
doesn't mean I can't overcome it.
I just need additional help.
Yes.
So when you look into the future of work and you think about your kids and your grandkids out in the workforce,
what do you think needs to happen so that everyone is treated with dignity and respect and encourage to thrive?
(44:56):
Well,
I think it takes leadership on the part of those of us who are more mature uh who have been in the workplace longer.
I think we have to set a high standard as far as how we treat people.
Um I have been blessed and fortunate to have other more experienced attorneys along the way to insist that they will re will treat people well and to um give me constructive criticism or constructive advice where I have fallen short.
(45:35):
But when someone said,
I'm sorry that behavior is not acceptable.
Um I needed to hear that and it again,
that's not the same as crossing our boundary and getting into other people's business.
But there are times when we must say that's not acceptable.
(45:57):
So with it,
when we encounter um discrimination when we encounter,
I hate to use the word bullying it,
but it's become such a vague pejorative term and nobody knows what it means.
But when we encounter behavior that is really disrespectful to people or is designed in some way to uh take away somebody's dignity that we stop and say that's not appropriate and that needs to end.
(46:27):
Absolutely.
We have an obligation to speak up so that we can all have healthy work environments because everyone deserves,
as you said,
first and foremost,
to feel safe and to be able to go to work and do good work.
Exactly.
And to keep in mind that if someone is um behaving in a way that it's taking away a work,
(46:52):
a safe work environment for somebody else,
it's not good for that person either.
They're not doing their best work there,
there's obviously something has gone wrong there.
And so if we stop and appropriately say this is where your boundary is,
this is,
this is what good behavior looks like and this is what inappropriate behavior looks like.
It gives that person the opportunity to increase their skill set to become a good coworker,
(47:20):
a good colleague and have greater success.
We're depriving people of that when we don't give them the opportunity to make a positive change.
100% agree,
we have to articulate what the civility standards are here.
People operate with all different kinds of expectations.
So let's articulate it and I absolutely agree instead of labeling somebody pushing them out,
(47:44):
firing them when nobody has ever said anything.
We need to be clear about what those are,
give people the opportunity and if they decide not to be a part of this team,
that's their decision.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Well,
thank you so much for your time today.
It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you.
It's always a joy talking with you,
(48:05):
Merry.
We appreciate you so much and,
and thanks for this opportunity.
Thank you,
take care.
Ok,
bye.
Thank you Vanedda
What a pleasure to talk with you today and I appreciate the work that you are doing to help people in need for over 30 years.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(48:28):
Merry Brown.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
So please come back.
You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.com.
My new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (48:38):
Tips to Ensure Failure is available on Amazon.
It's 80 tips of what not to do in the workplace and talks about how to have healthy work environments in a fun and engaging way,
Conflict Managed music is by Dove Plot. And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it. Until next time.
(48:58):
Take care.
All right,
this is All right.
I got it under wraps.
Now,
get a sound site uptight.
I right question do.
(00:26):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
Today on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Vanedda Webb. Vanedda has been a dedicated solo practitioner in private practice in Dyersburg,
Tennessee since 2008,
specializing in family law cases within Dyer County and surrounding areas.
Licensed to practice law in the state of Tennessee.
Since 1992.
She has extensive experience representing clients in trial and appellate courts including the Tennessee Supreme Court,
(00:52):
Federal Court and various civil and criminal cases.
Vanedda has also served as an assistant public defender,
a law clerk for an appellate judge and actively participated and continuing legal education.
In addition to her legal career,
Vaneddais deeply engaged in her community since 2019.
She has served as alderman at large for the city of Dyersburg,
contributing to committees focused on finance public safety and local government as the president of the West Tennessee Legal Services Board of Directors.
(01:20):
Since 2021 she continues to play a crucial role in promoting access to legal services.
Her involvement extends to various organizations including Kiwanis of Dyersburg,
the Southern Accent Chapter of the American Business Women's Association and her church First Baptist Church in Dyersburg. Vanedda alongside her husband Lance Webb,
who is an assistant district attorney,
(01:42):
takes pride in their three adult sons and enjoys the roles of Gigi and Big Poppy to their three brilliant grandchildren.
Good morning,
Vanedda and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Well,
thank you for having me.
So delighted to talk with you today on this very cold morning.
Always enjoy January and the first snow of the year.
(02:04):
But once the first snow is here,
I'm ready for it to go and to move on to spring.
Yes,
I feel the same.
I'm from California,
so I prefer to see the snow at a distance to visit it.
But no,
I live in the south,
which isn't supposed to have this kind of weather,
but we still get it every year.
So.
Well,
we,
we have a lovely change of seasons.
(02:26):
That's right.
Well,
let's get right into it.
And we tell us about the very first job you ever had as a young person.
Well,
I think the first job I had working with the public outside of babysitting was,
um,
at a fast food restaurant that served tacos.
I was about 15 and it was a new restaurant and we were all learning together.
(02:49):
So,
what was that experience like?
Well,
of course,
as a young person,
it was,
it was new to me and the,
the fellow that was the manager,
he was learning as well and it was a good experience.
Uh I enjoyed my co my my coworkers,
some things were difficult just because it fit everything is,
(03:11):
is on your learning curve,
whether it's running the cash register or taking orders.
And um I'll just say this,
I think anybody that works training teenagers at work deserves some kind of recognition as a,
as a hero.
Um,
teenagers are,
are uh difficult to,
to train and to work with.
(03:32):
But,
um,
I think they were very patient and very kind with me and I always look back on that fondly.
That's absolutely right.
I mean,
a teenager,
you know,
when you're a teenager,
you know,
the most you'll ever know.
Right.
And so,
I mean,
I love teenagers.
Uh I've had a few and they are fantastic and all of us have those areas in which that we shine and those that make it a little bit harder,
(03:59):
but sometimes it's hard to instruct individuals.
And then as you said,
with your manager,
you know,
being new in a new organization,
how lovely that they were patient and kind.
What else do we want from managers?
I mean,
patience and kindness.
I,
I think that that gets the best results and particularly with people who are new in the workforce uh to know that if you make a mistake,
(04:23):
um that,
that they,
they get that,
that they're,
they're making mistakes too.
Yeah,
absolutely.
We're all humans together.
That's a good standard to set.
So,
where did you go from there?
I did several things in high school.
I,
I worked,
I waited tables eventually.
By the time I was 18 I worked in radio.
(04:44):
Began,
uh,
in a small station at Fulton.
I probably was 1617,
old enough to drive.
And then,
uh,
shortly after I,
uh,
I finished high school,
the station in Mayfield hired me on a part time basis to work nights and weekends.
And,
um,
then when I went to college at UT Martin,
(05:05):
uh one of the stations in Union City was not kind enough to hire me.
And,
and so that became my job for several years.
I did some other things too,
worked in retail,
as I said,
waited tables,
uh,
in addition,
but my main job was working at the radio station.
What did you do?
I was a DJ,
I was on air talent.
If you could call it talent.
I don't know that you can call it that.
(05:26):
But the,
uh,
but I did work nights and weekends and then eventually,
uh,
as I progressed in college,
I transferred more into selling radio advertising.
And that was probably a very formative experience for me.
I learned how much I enjoyed helping people and particularly clients and developing their,
(05:47):
their,
uh a campaigns and working with them.
And if they saw results,
it was very satisfactory,
satisfying to me,
I have this impression and I'm not sure why that radio is a really difficult industry to work in.
Was that your experience or,
or not so much?
At times,
at times,
I think that um certain people with certain personalities are drawn to different types of occupations and radio people are very creative people and sometimes it was high drama.
(06:19):
Right.
You know,
I think that's such a good point.
When we look at different sorts of occupations,
it's very important to know where our natural affinities are or what kind of person that we are.
And then if you're gonna have an organization or,
or a kind of job that is creative,
very draws dramatic sorts of people.
There are ways to mitigate issues that come up by knowing that about your organization and not clamping down on creativity,
(06:46):
but making the environment so that people can thrive in that.
And if there is sort of inherent kind of drama again,
putting in systems so that it doesn't become negative ideally,
as we know,
uh many people just live with the negative drama because they don't have a system to deal with inevitable conflict that happens.
(07:09):
Well,
in,
in truth,
it was such a fun job.
Uh you take the positive and the negative and so the the job was so fun.
I was willing to put up with the drama for the sake of the fun,
right?
I mean,
and when we talk about good work environments sometimes.
Uh,
it can be easy to talk about this utopia,
but it doesn't exist.
(07:29):
Right.
And so in every job there's,
there's good,
good and bad aspects for sure.
And I don't want to leave the impression that I worked with bad people.
I didn't,
I worked with some fabulous people and I learned so much from them and they in turn,
were very patient with a young person learning their way in the workforce.
(07:52):
And I really do appreciate that and I appreciate them the opportunity to,
uh,
grow professionally and,
and I wanted to try my hand at selling advertising.
They were very open to that and,
and allowed me to,
to do that and,
and were patient with my mistakes.
(08:12):
That's wonderful.
I mean,
again,
that sort of patience and kindness.
And I also don't want to,
I'm not trying to throw any radio people under the bus because I know some and I think they're fabulous.
So,
uh,
it is though interesting,
I think when we look at the different kinds of professions.
So if you're a teacher or a lawyer,
a doctor,
a firefighter,
a radio person,
whatever kind of field you're in,
(08:32):
they,
there are in general different kinds of personalities that are drawn to that.
And we have that upside and the side that needs to be made,
made sure that it's a healthy environment for everybody.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And sometimes just knowing that if that this is part and parcel of what you work in.
So you better develop a skill set for handling it.
(08:55):
Well,
oh,
that's an excellent point.
It's so important to know the environment,
as you said.
I can't.
Yeah.
Excellent.
So,
what did you major in,
in college?
I was a broadcast communications major at UT Martin.
And then you went into law.
So,
from UT Martin you went to law school?
Why?
Law?
Well,
(09:15):
as I said,
I worked in uh radio sales and I got to be about a calendar year away from graduation.
And it dawned on me,
it was kind of an epiphany.
I woke up one morning,
I looked at my,
my,
my credits and how far I had to go and said in a year from now,
I'll be completing this degree.
(09:36):
And you know what,
while I have enjoyed radio and I enjoy broadcasting,
I don't think I want to do this,
the rest of my life that in inherent in that field to advance you go to bigger and bigger markets.
And I'm not a big town girl,
I'm a small town girl.
And I want to find a profession where I can enjoy living in a small town.
(09:59):
And so I began to explore what my options were.
My dad was an accountant in Mayfield,
Kentucky.
He's still an accountant today.
He's just retired and I talked to him,
I talked to my professors,
I talked to people I worked with and we began a group conversation or meet with several people and exploring what I liked and what I didn't like and what I might like to do it came to the conclusion that law school might be a good fit for me.
(10:30):
And that,
because I so enjoyed working with clients that the practice of law might be something that I enjoyed.
And absolutely,
I did.
I've loved practicing law for this past 30 plus years and it was a very good decision,
but it,
it came out of my experiences selling advertising.
And by that time having enough experience in the workforce,
(10:51):
even as a young person to say,
I like these things.
I don't like this.
I need to craft a career that suits me.
That sounds so mature.
And I wish that for everybody but young people who start in one way and realize this isn't what I want to do.
Did you mean,
did you feel a sort of trepidation?
(11:12):
I'm almost done with this major,
but I don't want to do it.
Did you,
how did you look outside of yourself to say no,
I want to do something else.
And I'm gonna find this group conversation to help me move forward.
I think it was,
it was just an epiphany one morning and,
and I was very blessed and fortunate that I had people in my circle who could help me with that.
(11:34):
Then when I went to them and I laid it all out and that includes uh professors in the broadcasting department at Et Martin when I said,
hey,
this is where I am and I think I wanna change courses and I really don't want to uh get another undergraduate degree.
I want to use what I have.
(11:56):
They were very open to helping me.
Uh Doctor Gerald Ogg was absolutely a wonderful mentor to me.
And he and Doctor Gary Steinke and several other people were just,
and then they,
they um referred me to Doctor Ko and,
and Doctor Justine to,
to kind of discuss what law school would look like and what,
what my law school options were and what would be best for me so that I could do what I wanted to do.
(12:21):
I just want to give a shout out to any young person listening.
Anybody in college get to know your professors,
the more you have a circle.
If you're out of college,
you can reach back to those professors or wherever you are.
Get a group of mentors,
people that you can talk with.
So that whenever an issue comes up,
we never know what it might be.
(12:42):
And this wasn't a negative issue.
It was just what do I do next?
You have a circle that can give you guidance.
So that's wonderful.
What a gift.
Oh,
it was.
It was.
And that's one of the reasons why I just my shout out to,
to UT Martin.
I've always encouraged young people in West Tennessee to consider UT Martin as a serious option because the administration and the professors on campus are generally genuinely very interested in their students and get to know them well.
(13:13):
And that's a great asset in life.
I know now this is turning into a advertisement for UTM.
But I talk there for a very long time.
My husband teaches there.
One of our kids went there and I'm actually back teaching this semester because there's a professor on sabbatical.
And so I'm taking his philosophy courses so many times when we think about what is a good education look like.
(13:34):
We think Ivy League,
we think name brand recognition and there's something to that.
But I would encourage people to look deeper what,
what's really going on,
what are the opportunities you're going to get?
How involved are the professors.
And so some place like UT Martin is,
I mean,
such a gem.
But no matter where you are,
if you are at a 60,000 plus university,
(13:56):
you can decide to go to office hours,
you can decide to make yourself known and their benefits ripple out for your whole life,
your whole career.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And the importance of networking in general.
I mean,
I think all of our life is about networking in a positive way are our relationships.
(14:17):
The quality of our relationships has to do with the quality of our life and so making good relationships,
helping one another.
I mean,
that's,
that's the fabric of,
I think what makes a good life.
So you went to law school and then you came back to Dyersburg?
No.
Uh,
my husband is from Middle Tennessee.
That's really where we thought we would go and stay.
(14:39):
But,
um,
I love Nashville.
Nashville is an exciting area and has been for over 30 years.
Lots and lots of growth in Nashville.
But,
um,
the traffic to and from Nashville has an impact on your family life and the quality of life.
And at some point,
my husband and I decided that our best bet was to move to an area I was more familiar with.
(15:02):
In West Tennessee,
we purchased a small private practice in the India City just there for several years.
And in West Tennessee ever since.
And I just can't imagine living anywhere else.
Yes,
I've been here for 20 plus years and,
and I love this area as well.
So when you think about the people that you've worked with different colleagues,
(15:25):
different work situations that you've had,
what strikes you as the best situation,
the best colleague,
boss.
And what was it?
That was so good about it for you.
Well,
uh for the majority of my uh career,
I have been in a sole practitioner.
Uh means I,
I either run my own firm or,
(15:46):
or just been in an office by myself.
Uh That doesn't mean I don't have colleagues.
It doesn't mean I don't have accountability and people I answer to,
but that is my preferred way to work.
Now,
having said that I have had the opportunity to work for some amazing people and some amazing environments.
After I had practiced for a period of time,
(16:09):
I became a law clerk for an appellate court.
Judge,
Judge Joe Riley was on the Court of Appeals and uh working for Judge Riley was a great experience.
He had a excellent way of organizing workflow and the complex issues uh that we had to deal with in that environment.
(16:31):
He helped my legal writing.
So,
so much most people,
if they are going to be a uh appellate court law clerk do that right out of law school.
And so for me to have some years of practice under my belt and then come into that environment was unusual,
but I found it was very,
very helpful to me because I had a greater appreciation for what he was able to teach me.
(16:53):
But I have adopted or tried to adopt many of his methods for managing workflow to work smarter and not just harder,
we all would work hard.
But if you're not working smart,
it doesn't matter how hard you're working,
that's,
that's such a great experience to have been on your own and then be able to be with somebody and see how they did it like,
(17:17):
oh,
I want to do that too.
Yeah,
it was really,
really good.
I've had some other amazing environments to,
to get to come in and,
and work in for a period of time where I don't have to be the boss where somebody else can be.
And,
um,
it's always fun to work in a team.
Uh,
and because I'm a sole practitioner most of the time,
(17:38):
any time I'm able to work in a team,
it's a nice change of pace for me.
So,
what about even though that you,
you primarily have worked for yourself?
Certainly you've come into conflicts with peers.
How have you dealt with that?
Can you tell us about a time and how you pushed through?
(17:59):
Well,
one thing to remember,
I,
I do primarily domestic relations in my private practice.
That's divorces,
child custody,
adoption,
visitation,
child support.
And those are very emotional issues.
Uh,
of course,
when people are in the court system,
they have a conflict and it's really easy as attorneys to get sucked into that conflict too.
(18:25):
That's a,
I call it a rookie mistake happens to everybody.
You've got to watch out for it and learning how to maintain your equilibrium.
Maintain your cool,
to put a good boundary between the conflict the clients are having and your professional relationship with the other attorney,
(18:49):
the judge,
uh,
the other people that are involved in resolving the conflict don't become part of the conflict.
So how do you do that?
How do you maintain that professional distance when you are a human person?
And you have thoughts,
feelings and beliefs and emotions.
It's a work in progress.
Uh But,
(19:10):
but you gotta keep that at the forefront that this is hard for the people that you're representing.
It's hard for the person on the other side.
And also to realize that the gravity of what we're dealing with.
If I in my uh humanity get involved and I behave poorly that may severely impair my client's long term working relationship with another parent,
(19:40):
they may have Children together.
And,
and if I do that,
if I throw gas on their fire,
then I really haven't done them a good service.
But how we,
we do it is we learn what appropriate behavior is.
We learn how to establish boundaries with ourselves and with others.
(20:01):
If someone else is uh losing their cool,
how do you,
you know,
determine that I'm gonna treat them graciously?
I'm not gonna respond in kind,
I'm gonna respond well.
And if I have to take a break,
come back to it.
And I've been really fortunate as a young attorney that I had more mature,
experienced attorneys to model that for me and really appreciate folks that were able to say time out,
(20:28):
let's take a break or let's step away from this conversation and come back to it when we can have a clear hit.
Those.
That's an excellent idea for de escalation in the moment.
What about as you prepare if you have an inkling that this is going to be emotionally difficult for you.
Is there are any techniques that you use to prepare to center yourselves that you can be present and professional for your clients.
(20:53):
Things like to say,
well,
this is not my divorce,
this is theirs,
this is about them.
Um of all the people in this room today,
I will be the least important person there,
not about me and uh how to put someone else first.
And there are days that we fall short and we have to apologize.
And I have found that,
(21:15):
uh,
when you realize that you need to make an apology to make it,
to make it.
Well,
we all know what a good apology is and what an apology is not.
Apology is not.
Well,
if you hadn't done this or if you hadn't done that,
I would.
No,
no,
no.
It's all about what I did and being specific.
And if you're like me and you don't really like to eat crow,
you have to eat a little of it.
(21:36):
It'll make you lose your taste for it.
Yes,
absolutely.
And because of what you're dealing with,
it really is very high stakes.
And so being mindful of that,
I think one thing that I have learned in,
in my practice of working with conflict resolution is my background is as a people pleaser and a fixer,
right?
And,
(21:56):
uh,
and going into conflict resolution,
it's absolutely not that because it isn't my conflict.
I'm not living with the results of this agreement.
I'm not working here with these people.
It's not me.
And even if I was there,
what works for me may not work for somebody else.
Exactly.
(22:17):
Exactly.
And that's what we have to remember.
It's not us.
It has no reflection on us.
I'm gonna try to give my clients my best efforts and to zealously represent them and to give them objective advice to the best of my ability.
But when that case closes by necessity,
(22:38):
I'm putting that away and I'm moving on to the next matter.
They are not,
they are living with uh the financial consequences or the consequences within their family.
And so just being respectful of that,
I 100% agree with what you're saying.
Imagine if you were working in an office with a variety of other people,
(23:02):
how do you see those principles being played out in a team environment?
Well,
I think one of the things is,
is to learn what your role is,
your level of authority and to stay in your lane.
If it's your job,
to tell people to show up on time,
then you have to do your job and you have to tell people to show up on time.
(23:24):
If that's not your job,
then that's not your job and stay out of it.
We talk about me being a fixer and a people pleaser and I think that's a,
a,
it can be a very good thing,
but it's it's,
it's a very common,
a common characteristic of a very kind people who mean.
Well,
but we can take on that role when it's not our role.
(23:47):
And we need to learn,
hey,
what is my role?
And I need to,
I need to set my boundary and stay in it.
And if I set my boundary and stay in it,
then it's more likely that I will stay out of conflict.
Not entirely,
You can still,
you can remember.
It takes two people to argue.
Yes,
I love that so much clarity and acceptance.
(24:07):
So first of all,
we do need to know what my role,
you know,
what is my role?
Am I the person who's enforcing the rules?
Am I the person setting the rules?
Am I just following?
And I'm not enforcing anything,
I'm just,
I'm doing me.
And so knowing what's going on and then accepting it,
I think for so many people,
(24:28):
especially I think for people who want to fix the world,
like I just want a throne and I want to fix the world,
I have this very strong conception of justice.
And when I see even minor things that I think are unjust uh this onboarding didn't go right.
This didn't happen,
that didn't happen.
It shouldn't be that way.
I had this very strong sense of how things quote unquote should be.
(24:52):
And so when,
what I have to do is I just have to say,
OK,
Mary,
this is the situation whether or not you think it should be.
This is reality.
What are you going to do?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And,
uh,
when I learned the concept of boundaries,
it changed my life for the better it changed my professional life.
(25:17):
Uh,
in my personal life,
I had a wonderful family,
great,
great parents,
but we never used the word boundaries at our house.
And,
um,
when I first encountered that concept,
it,
um took me a little while to wrap my head around.
It's not that hard.
But once II,
I kind of clued into that.
(25:39):
I think it's improved my relationships.
Yeah,
I think you're so right.
You know,
boundaries that we talk a lot about that.
You know,
my boundaries are boundaries,
boundary setting and it isn't difficult,
but it is difficult to practice,
especially if you're not used to setting them and enforcing them because many times we think especially in today's climate,
this is my boundary.
You have to keep it instead of this is my boundary.
(26:03):
I'm in charge of it.
And so if I feel violated or it's been violated,
I decide what I'm going to do next,
not you.
Because when I say you have to fix it,
it's,
it is a victim mentality.
It is giving up our power instead of boundaries are supposed to be the opposite.
They're supposed to be empowering,
they're supposed to help us to communicate with ourselves and others.
(26:25):
Exactly.
We,
we,
we can't fix anyone else,
they get to do them.
We can only do ourselves,
we can only fix ourselves.
And so if the,
if the situation needs fixing,
is there anything that I have the authority to do that I'm supposed to be doing to fix it?
Uh And then if not,
(26:45):
what is my response going to be and what would the appropriate response to be?
Sometimes I find myself asking who do I want to be in this situation?
And how do I make that happen?
I love that.
Who do I want to be in this situation?
It's very forward looking.
And that's the thing is we're curating our life intentionally or unintentionally.
(27:07):
And so if we're not sure who we want to be,
well,
what is it that we want?
We need to have that vision so that we can bring it about if we don't have a vision for ourselves,
how are we ever gonna get there?
That's right.
Very seldom could we say who I really want to be is the,
the woman who,
uh,
is having the hissy fit who has lost control of herself and the situation.
(27:30):
That's not who I want to be.
So,
let's step away from that and decide who I'm gonna be.
Absolutely.
That's so true.
Most of us don't want to,
to be that person.
Yes,
absolutely.
I would imagine after 30 years of practicing law and the kind of law that you do,
and I know you have a strong sense of justice and right and wrong.
(27:52):
And you see people many times at their worst with going through something very traumatic and,
and being able to still be light,
not and not control them to do what you think is gonna be best.
And you've got all this experience like,
man,
if you go down this path,
it's not going to have the best outcome.
(28:14):
So being able to sit in that,
well,
what can I do in this situation in my professional capacity to,
to be a peacemaker,
to be,
to be AAA light to them.
How do you,
how do you balance that?
Well,
you,
you do,
you have to say what,
for example,
if I have a client and I realize that they're contributing to a conflict,
(28:39):
they may not realize it,
they,
they may not see it uh because they're in it.
Um And there are some people that you can give constructive advice and they will take it and run with it.
And there are other people that once you've given it,
that's all you can do.
(29:00):
You can't,
I didn't take them to raise.
And so if they choose not to,
then we have to,
to deal with it as best we can.
But it's also my job as,
as an attorney is to give our clients objective advice.
And sometimes that objective advice is when you do this,
(29:21):
you're escalating your conflict,
perhaps you want to step away or or do something different.
Maybe I frequently encourage clients to go to counseling because when we deal with difficulties,
uh a good counselor or a good therapist can give us a skill set for addressing a difficult personality that we have to deal with or a difficult situation or addressing our own frustrations that our uh our own grief,
(29:52):
our own sadness,
our own sense of loss that our relationships did not turn out like we wanted them to be.
And,
and a good counselor or a good therapist can give them a skill set.
I can't fix for them.
Yeah.
But,
but,
but then they have to decide what they want to do and if they want to take a course of action,
that's legal that within the bounds of ethics that I could support,
(30:12):
it's,
it's nothing inappropriate.
Then if that's what they want to do,
that's their choice.
This is their matter,
not mine.
Yeah.
And that's,
I think very important when we start looking at what I can fix,
as you said,
I can only fix myself.
And so when we're in a work conflict,
(30:33):
many times people want to fix other people's personalities.
This,
they are driving me crazy because of who they are.
And that's I believe inappropriate.
Uh We ought to focus on the problem and not the person.
And I find that very freeing.
I don't have to make this person in my image.
I don't have to craft this person.
(30:54):
So that I will invite them to my birthday party.
But if they are,
if there's something happening,
that's problematic when it goes to the work environment,
then I can address that and I can take ownership of me.
And I think that's a part of fixing me,
me looking around and saying,
what are my boundaries?
Why are these my boundaries?
(31:15):
What am I doing?
And when I feel there's a boundary violation,
how am I going to act?
Not waiting for somebody else.
But how am I going to move forward?
And this is all about personal efficacy and trusting people to be adults that adults make decisions for good or for ill,
but it's their decision to make.
(31:36):
It's not my life to live and it's not my decision.
And I think too that uh as we mature,
we learn that not everybody sees things like we do.
Uh Our approach is not the only approach and to know yourself.
One of the things in the last several years that I've learned is really important is uh the difference between if you're extroverted or if you're introverted that that can have a huge impact on your own personality and how you perceive other people and to be sensitive to the fact that if somebody is introverted,
(32:11):
there's gonna be things that bother them that the extrovert is just,
it's just gonna pass them on by.
They don't even know that they've,
they've done it and uh and vice versa,
that the extrovert is gonna be expecting things of the introvert,
but the introvert can't provide to them because they,
they are trying to meet their own need.
And,
and that's just one of many types of personality differences that we just have to be mindful that other people perceive the world differently.
(32:38):
So when you were a clerking,
you talked about the judge having really good organizational skills so that you can work smarter and get more work done in an efficient way.
Yes,
organizational structures are very important.
What do you think when you think about a good work environment,
what are some important organizational structures so that there are healthy environments?
(33:05):
Well,
uh and,
and,
and again,
it's different things for different people.
When I am working on a writing project or a legal research project or I'm preparing documents,
I need quiet,
I need to be left alone.
Iii I need to,
(33:26):
to have space to do the work without interruption so that,
that I can focus on that.
And frankly,
that's a great work environment for me up to a point.
But if I stay in that environment for entirely too long without interaction with other people,
I'm just enough of an extrovert that I lose my energy.
(33:49):
I think sometimes though being physically comfortable and for,
for someone to understand,
do I do well with a lot of interaction with people or do I not?
And sometimes we don't have a choice about that there are certain places you're gonna work that,
that you're gonna have lots of interaction with people to the extent that we uh are leaders and,
or we are the boss and we are creating a work environment,
(34:12):
think about what we're asking people to do and to realize that some of our employees are going to need uh um when,
when the,
the physical work environment is draining on them,
how do we give them a break?
Is there something we can do that makes sense uh to maintain their level of energy or their ability to work for us?
(34:39):
So if I have a,
an assistant and they're working on a project that requires some concentration,
what can I do to give them an environment where they're not being interrupted?
Can I know enough about myself to ask for the environment where I'm not interrupted?
And at the same time,
there are times that I need to say I,
I need um I need to have some human interaction and uh let's do that before.
(35:05):
It's not interfering with our productivity.
Self reflection seems to be the name of the game.
And it's such a simple question that many of us don't really ask.
Such as what is the physical environment that works for me?
Given the kind of work I'm doing when I'm writing,
I like to listen to certain kinds of music.
(35:27):
But when I'm editing,
I can't listen to music,
there's a lot of things that II,
I need a certain level of concentration and writing in the act of writing.
The music gives me a concentration.
It's only like certain music though that I know so well.
And it becomes like this background noise that helps me to get really into it.
(35:48):
But as soon as I'm editing,
I need nothing.
I don't want any sort of distraction and I know that about myself.
And,
you know,
there's a simple question that that listeners can ask themselves is what is most conducive for me in this work environment?
And then to be curious,
what about my boss?
(36:09):
What about my coworkers?
Do I know how they work best if I'm frustrated with the way they're working?
Do I even know if they have the right kind of equipment environment support to get done,
whatever needs to get done and have I had that kind of conversation?
(36:30):
I wonder how many conflicts in the workplace really stem from the fact that someone is being asked to do something in a physical environment that is not conducive to the work they're being asked to do or that they're not given all the tools they need.
And that's the frustration.
(36:50):
Absolutely.
When I think about design,
human design and then I think of whoever came up with these open clans,
these like,
you know,
it's just this giant floors and first they have like these dividers and now there's just giant tables I think.
Have you met a human person before.
I mean,
to understand people and their need for space and all these people are on the phone or they're,
(37:17):
or they're doing thought work and you've got them right next to somebody eating a tuna sandwich.
You know,
I mean,
it doesn't make any sense in leadership.
We have to be mindful of that.
Are we,
are we imposing things that are counterproductive right there is this um video that's going around about a particular giant company that had put together a video as to why everybody needs to come back into the office.
(37:43):
And the video which was made maybe a month ago,
uh it looks like it was made in the eighties and it's,
I'm not saying that people ought not be physically in the office or that they ought not be away from the office.
Yeah,
I,
I have different thoughts about hybrid and completely remote and in person.
I think it depends on who you are in your work.
(38:06):
But what's very important I think is being honest and really understanding the individual within the organization,
you have the organizational structure.
But if you have to make blanket statements about everybody needs to be in the office,
you clearly don't understand the individual people and the work they do.
(38:27):
And this particular organization has to be happens to be a,
a global organization.
So in the office with somebody who's in,
you know,
another country,
different time zones,
misunderstands and people when you don't pay attention to their bodies,
when you don't pay attention to who they are outside of work,
(38:47):
when you don't really take into consideration something like commute or the work environment,
what do you get?
You get,
you're not working smarter,
you're not treating people excellently.
And so what do you expect?
You,
you know,
you make a video like that,
you will get ridiculed because of,
I mean,
(39:07):
I don't think anyone should be ridiculed but you're going to get below back because you're not treating people well.
Well,
it's,
uh,
it's just something to be mindful of that,
that what may be underlying,
it may be that their needs aren't being met and that can be true in all kinds of environments.
I know that,
that in the courtroom we have to be mindful of other people's,
(39:31):
their level of safety.
They have to feel safe.
If there's been violence in a relationship,
we need to make sure that everyone feels safe that if uh,
the temperature is too hot or too cold,
I'm not talking about just kinda,
I mean,
it,
it extremes,
it may make it difficult to function.
(39:52):
I might be ok.
Working through lunch,
my colleague that has diabetes probably doesn't need to work through lunch.
They probably need to,
to,
to stay on their eating schedule or take their medicine or,
or,
and,
and,
and I'm not limited to diabetes,
but we need to be mindful of that.
And sometimes in the legal community there has been a kind of culture of,
(40:13):
oh,
just push through it,
just push through it.
And it's ok if I want me,
if I wanna push myself through it,
that's on me.
But if I want to push you through it,
that's different.
If you're sick,
I need to be sensitive to that.
If you have a physical need,
I need to be sensitive to.
That.
Courtroom is hard enough place.
(40:34):
You don't have to make it hard.
Yeah,
absolutely.
This idea of setting the standard and then if I want to go above the standard,
that's fine.
So we come to offices with all these expectations and at the end of the day,
we're more than our work,
but certainly more than our conflicts.
We are about who are we as human persons and how are we seeing others showing up for others and showing up for ourselves?
(41:02):
And it goes down to the temperature,
it goes down to,
you know,
the physical environment and the psychological environment that we are creating for good or for ill because we are always telling people how we ought to be treated.
We're always telling people obviously how we're treating them and what's important and organizations are doing the same.
(41:24):
Do you really follow your values?
You know,
are you really on mission if you are,
this is,
does not seem to be an alignment.
If it is an alignment,
you need to articulate clearly often why this is a best practice that's respecting everybody.
It's not something that comes naturally to everyone.
(41:44):
And it,
it,
it certainly for most of us that,
that are mature,
it's a work in progress.
Uh,
we're not gonna hit it spot on every day by any means that we all send and fall short.
But,
but it's certainly a goal to strive for that.
We be mindful of other people's needs.
And I think too,
when you,
you said I'm more than the job,
(42:05):
I'm more than just what I do for a living.
I think when we can reach the point that we can see ourselves beyond what our occupation is.
I think that just seeing yourself is just what you do for a living is um it leaves AAA door wide open for dysfunction to start.
(42:26):
And I also think at the beginning,
so I have three sons and one of them is really struggling with what he wants to do with his life.
And because especially I think in your twenties,
thirties,
forties,
you are.
There's this tendency to want to define yourself by your profession.
And who am I?
If I don't have a particular profession,
(42:47):
who am I if I don't have that kind of identity while we want everyone to be gainfully employed and we want everyone to do work that resonates with them.
There is this,
this feeling that something is wrong because I'm not in love with a particular profession.
And therefore I don't get to say,
you know,
I'm a philosopher,
(43:07):
I'm a lawyer.
I'm a,
what,
you know,
if they don't feel that and that causes a lot of anxiety for people,
if they can't fill in that blank with something that is a stamp of approval from society.
Yes,
that's a very,
it's a very kind and,
and,
and for,
as we,
as when we're younger we're,
we're prone to that.
Uh,
and,
(43:28):
and I can think,
well,
it's,
somebody might say it's easy for you to say Veneta,
you found your occupation.
You did it for 30.
You've done it for over 30 years.
You've,
you've been,
you've had,
uh,
the fortune of,
of,
of working for yourself and being able to do this for a living.
And so that's easy for you to say,
but we all just need to find it.
Think about if,
(43:48):
if I didn't do this,
would it really matter?
Would I still be the same type of person?
And my thought is II,
I would certainly hope so.
I would certainly hope that the things that are,
that are,
that are my strengths,
would be my strengths no matter what I did for a living.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And the things that I don't do well properly would not do those well,
(44:09):
no matter what I was doing,
it's so common for,
for young people to say,
I,
I don't know what I want to do.
And that's ok.
This is not my favorite or that just doesn't fit for me.
I just too much of a,
a too much of a struggle uphill.
And we all have those things that we as you come to know yourself.
(44:30):
You say,
man,
like for me,
technology is a challenge,
doesn't mean I can't overcome it.
I just need additional help.
Yes.
So when you look into the future of work and you think about your kids and your grandkids out in the workforce,
what do you think needs to happen so that everyone is treated with dignity and respect and encourage to thrive?
(44:56):
Well,
I think it takes leadership on the part of those of us who are more mature uh who have been in the workplace longer.
I think we have to set a high standard as far as how we treat people.
Um I have been blessed and fortunate to have other more experienced attorneys along the way to insist that they will re will treat people well and to um give me constructive criticism or constructive advice where I have fallen short.
(45:35):
But when someone said,
I'm sorry that behavior is not acceptable.
Um I needed to hear that and it again,
that's not the same as crossing our boundary and getting into other people's business.
But there are times when we must say that's not acceptable.
(45:57):
So with it,
when we encounter um discrimination when we encounter,
I hate to use the word bullying it,
but it's become such a vague pejorative term and nobody knows what it means.
But when we encounter behavior that is really disrespectful to people or is designed in some way to uh take away somebody's dignity that we stop and say that's not appropriate and that needs to end.
(46:27):
Absolutely.
We have an obligation to speak up so that we can all have healthy work environments because everyone deserves,
as you said,
first and foremost,
to feel safe and to be able to go to work and do good work.
Exactly.
And to keep in mind that if someone is um behaving in a way that it's taking away a work,
(46:52):
a safe work environment for somebody else,
it's not good for that person either.
They're not doing their best work there,
there's obviously something has gone wrong there.
And so if we stop and appropriately say this is where your boundary is,
this is,
this is what good behavior looks like and this is what inappropriate behavior looks like.
It gives that person the opportunity to increase their skill set to become a good coworker,
(47:20):
a good colleague and have greater success.
We're depriving people of that when we don't give them the opportunity to make a positive change.
100% agree,
we have to articulate what the civility standards are here.
People operate with all different kinds of expectations.
So let's articulate it and I absolutely agree instead of labeling somebody pushing them out,
(47:44):
firing them when nobody has ever said anything.
We need to be clear about what those are,
give people the opportunity and if they decide not to be a part of this team,
that's their decision.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Well,
thank you so much for your time today.
It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you.
It's always a joy talking with you,
(48:05):
Merry.
We appreciate you so much and,
and thanks for this opportunity.
Thank you,
take care.
Ok,
bye.
Thank you Vanedda
What a pleasure to talk with you today and I appreciate the work that you are doing to help people in need for over 30 years.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(48:28):
Merry Brown.
We have new episodes every Tuesday.
So please come back.
You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.com.
My new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (48:38):
Tips to Ensure Failure is available on Amazon.
It's 80 tips of what not to do in the workplace and talks about how to have healthy work environments in a fun and engaging way,
Conflict Managed music is by Dove Plot. And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected.
Let's deal with it. Until next time.
(48:58):
Take care.
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