December 26, 2023 • 50 mins
🎙️ Welcome to another episode of Conflict Managed. I'm excited to have Brandon Brown, Senior Business Analyst, with us today to explore the crucial role of work relationships in career success. Let's dive into how building resilient and harmonious connections can be a game-changer in our professional lives.
Join us as we discuss:
🤝 The power of soft skills: Driving relationship success at work.
🌱 Assigning mentors to new hires for stronger work bonds.
🧪 Creating work chemistry: Building resilient and positive connections.
👩💼 Empowering leadership: Fostering creativity and ownership.
🖥️ Success in remote work: Daily check-ins, trust, and peer accountability.
The strength of our work relationships can be the driving force behind our career achievements. Tune in next week for more engaging discussions. Keep thriving in your professional journey!
Brandon Brown graduated from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor with a BSE in Computer Engineering and a Master's degrees in Information Systems and Business Administration from North Central College. Brandon has worked in various roles in software development since 1999 with the last twenty years of that in the energy industry. Aside from his career, Brandon enjoys playing tennis, spending time in nature, traveling, and visiting with his family.
Conflict Managed is available wherever you listen to podcasts.
Conflict Managed is hosted by Merry Brown and produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services (3pconflictrestoration.com).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it under wraps now.
No,
get a sun uptight asking questions.
(00:25):
So John,
welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we are joined by Brandon Brown.
Brandon graduated from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor with the BSE in Computer engineering and a master's degree in Information systems and Business Administration from North Central College.
(00:46):
Brandon has worked in various roles in software development since 1999 with the last 20 years of that in the energy industry.
Aside from his career,
Brandon enjoys playing tennis,
spending time in nature,
traveling and visiting with his family.
Good morning,
Brandon and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Good morning.
I have the distinct pleasure of interviewing Brandon,
(01:08):
my brother in law,
who I have known for 28-29 years.
And so is that how long it's been?
That is how long you were in high school when I met you?
So a lot has transpired since then.
So let's begin.
Like I begin all of the shows by asking about the first job you ever had as a young man.
(01:30):
What did you,
what was your first job?
So I was a computer engineer major in college.
And so my first job was in the um Chicago area at engineering firm there that built telecommunication equipment.
(01:51):
And I was on one of the support teams for one of the products that they had.
And so we would get,
you know,
customer issues that would come in that would require,
you know,
modifications to the system.
I was on the software side.
So I make software changes to the,
the code for the,
(02:13):
for the product.
And uh yeah,
so we had a lot of customer contact,
a lot of contact with our customer service department because everything came through them.
And then we also kind of tied back to the,
you know,
development teams who were,
who created the product and we're creating new products and new versions of the product.
And so you're kind of in the middle of that whole process there.
(02:36):
That's a lot of moving parts to try to coordinate.
Yeah,
it was interesting as a,
as a first job too because it,
it wasn't,
I mean,
you kind of go to school for engineering and you figure you're just gonna be making things,
you know,
in this case,
software for me.
But,
you know,
(02:56):
I was thrown into kind of a job that had a lot of like people skills required and,
and,
you know,
a lot of it was,
you know more of a softer skills,
I guess,
which was,
you know,
not necessarily what I was expecting coming out of school,
but I think it was probably good for me to start being exposed to that.
Cause as I've gone through my career,
(03:17):
I've learned,
you know,
a lot of that is,
is really important,
at least from what I have experienced,
it's,
you know,
relationships just kind of become the driver of everything.
And so you really need to,
to learn how to handle different situations with people.
And very rarely,
you know,
you might,
maybe in school,
you've got a lot of projects where you can just kind of go into your cave and just kind of do it from beginning to end when very rarely works that way.
(03:45):
You know,
at a company,
you're always kind of in some kind of group situation,
whether that's with coworkers or customers or management or whatever it might be.
You know,
that's such a good point because a lot of times in high school or college we think about group work,
we're like,
oh,
group work is the worst.
Let me just do it on my own.
(04:06):
This isn't like real life.
And who would have thought that that's probably the most like real life trying to navigate who's gonna do what,
at what time and what quality and being on the same page as to what the assignment is at the first place.
That is what a lot of adult working is about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't think again,
(04:26):
in my experience,
at least school,
I mean,
certainly do a lot of group work but it's still not to say you don't,
I didn't feel prepared for that really,
you know,
by school.
So,
so what was the dynamic like with the team that you worked with and your boss?
What,
what did,
what just,
what was it like in that,
that first job in particular?
(04:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,
I mean,
it was,
it was a pretty good dynamic overall.
I mean,
when I first started,
I had a wide kind of range of,
of experience in the group,
you know,
couple of people who had only been there a couple of years and,
you know,
the,
the senior guys were,
you know,
(05:07):
my age now,
so old back then,
you know,
20 plus years of experience and,
and our boss was actually a pretty young guy.
I mean,
he was like,
I think he was like 29 the guy who was in charge of the group that he was kind of like a,
you know,
a guy on an upward trajectory in the corporate ladder,
I guess you could say.
But so,
but yeah,
I mean,
(05:28):
I had,
it was very positive in general,
uh from,
you know,
everyone was very welcoming and really diverse group too,
like a lot of very different backgrounds in that group.
And I don't know if that was part of it,
part of it just being in Chicago.
And so it's kind of had that kind of like,
you know,
big city diversity to it even though we weren't in the city proper.
(05:49):
But,
you know,
so I,
I learned a lot from,
from people just because of that just because of the very varying life experiences that,
that they had.
But yeah,
in terms of working again,
it was like being thrown into a kind of,
again,
a more of a customer support type of role.
It's like there's so much to learn because what you come in day one,
(06:10):
you don't know anything.
And um you know,
so you can't really effectively do the job,
you know,
on day one whi which is probably true for anything.
But it was,
yeah,
there was a lot of,
a lot of learning to do there.
And so it was good to have,
you know,
a group and I was assigned a mentor like they had,
you know,
that was,
you know,
right from day one,
(06:31):
you know,
I had a mentor which I think was,
was a good,
you know,
way of handling that for somebody who was fresh out of college.
And I don't know how common that is necessarily.
But so that helped a lot too to have that one person I knew I could go to,
you know,
that's so interesting because with all the different parties that you're talking with customer,
(06:52):
external customers,
internal different groups within the organization.
And then you talk about all the diversity with age and background and experience.
It just sounds like it's a breeding ground for uh miscommunication and dysfunction.
And it sounds like you had the opposite.
And it's interesting that you mentioned from day one,
you had a mentor.
I have talked to a lot of people and nobody has ever told me that.
(07:16):
And I want,
I mean,
that sounds like intentionality of bringing people on board as we know on boarding is so important that tells the new person so much about what's going on here was expected of them.
And they do,
as you said,
you have a go to person to ask the questions that all new people have a variety of questions.
I think that's pretty interesting.
(07:37):
Yeah.
And,
and it's all the jobs I've had since then,
like,
I don't think any of them had like a,
a formal mentoring program like that.
So it's been unique in my experience as well.
But yeah,
obviously very thankful that I had that for my first job because that was for me when I would have needed it the most.
For sure.
(07:58):
Right.
Right.
Right.
When you are first starting off you,
and as you mentioned,
anytime you go to a new job,
you're not going to be,
you know,
knowing what to do right off the bat because you got to figure out the culture and exactly what the job is.
But when you really are new right out of college.
And then having that as your first real job setting the tone to help you through the rest of your career.
(08:19):
That,
that's a real blessing.
So,
where did you go after that job?
I left that job.
I was there for about four years.
I moved back to Ann Arbor where I went to school in Michigan from Chicago.
And actually,
it was kind of,
I was unemployed for a bit,
but I got a,
a job in Ann Arbor through a friend of mine.
(08:41):
Actually,
I was roommates with him at the time too.
And I worked for a small energy company that was selling power to uh individual businesses on the,
the retail market,
which was at the time.
So this,
we're talking 2003 or so was kind of a new kind of burgeoning thing of this idea that you didn't have to buy your power from the utility.
(09:07):
You could have other choices and all that varied state by state and was something brand new kind of in Michigan at the time actually.
So that was my introduction to the,
the energy industry,
which is I've been in ever since in one form or another.
So obviously,
it's,
yeah,
kind of a random stumbling into it that's like took me down this road that I've been on for,
(09:31):
for the last 20 years now.
But that job.
So I was,
uh,
wasn't so much strictly you know,
a software developer or anything like that.
But we did,
we did a lot of our own development of the systems that we used to run the business.
So it was and analysts that,
you know,
help to manage our customer load,
doing forecasting,
scheduling,
(09:51):
predictive modeling,
stuff like that.
So we kind of build all that in house.
So the job itself was like staying on top of that on a day to day basis.
But then there was also kind of like long term like how can we enhance these things or what are we missing from our processes that you know,
that we we should build for the future to,
to better be able to run the business.
(10:14):
So stuff like that.
And this was a very small company,
my first job,
you know,
was more of a corporate 4000 employee company and this was,
this was a company of like 10 people,
so very,
very different experience.
But yeah,
so that,
that was the second job.
So how did you get to where you are today?
Yeah.
(10:34):
So it really,
it really flowed out of that job.
So one discovery I made working for this company,
uh was that the the retail energy industry that subsector of energy is very volatile.
And so that company went out of business,
I think,
well,
that's not really the right term but stopped operating 18 months or so after I,
(10:58):
I started working there and there was another company doing kind of similar is actually a company based in California.
And they had purchased a company in Michigan that was doing similar things on the retail market.
And so when they heard that we were stopping operations,
they kind of came in and interviewed all of us to see if there was anyone they would be interested in hiring.
(11:21):
And so I got hired by that company and uh that was probably one of my most challenging jobs.
I had that for about a year.
And then they moved all the Michigan people to Dallas and I think I made the correct decision to not do that,
to not follow them.
They,
you know,
they wanted me and they gave me like a relocation offer and all of that.
(11:41):
And I think I considered it for about 24 hours but woke up the next morning and was like,
yeah,
no,
I'm not,
I'm not doing it.
I'm not moving to Dallas for this crazy job.
So,
but through that job,
I had met some,
some other.
So,
so this other company um can have done some software consulting for us.
(12:02):
And so they were looking to expand and so I was able to,
to interview with them and,
and they,
they hired me and they were based in Boston.
And um that was a job that I had for about four years.
And that was my first exposure to working remotely,
which I do full time now,
which obviously the whole whole other thing we could talk about potentially.
(12:25):
So I did some traveling with that job out to Boston and to other clients.
But it was similar,
actually,
it wasn't similar too.
So we were um you know,
these were a company that uh helped uh other en energy companies with,
with their software needs and,
(12:45):
and we had,
you know,
different clients that had different systems that we worked on.
So this was back more to it was in the energy industry,
but back more to like a pure software slash engineering type job,
not operating an energy business,
but,
you know,
supplying and supporting software for other energy companies.
(13:07):
And that lasted for almost four years I think.
And uh you know,
there was some,
some tumultuous times there just again,
another small company,
you know,
about the same size as the energy company I worked for in Ann Arbor uh 10 people or so.
And there was some movement and management to change things and eventually they,
(13:31):
they laid me off after four years and then I think they went out of business like three months later or something like that,
which I always like to say it was not a coincidence,
but,
you know,
so,
so that was like,
OK,
now,
now what do I do?
And I,
I had uh reached out to person I worked for,
(13:55):
at the,
at the original energy company in Ann Arbor and I knew he was working for another company.
He had actually approached me while I was still working for this company in Boston about,
you know,
possibly coming to work for him and I was in the middle.
I,
it just wasn't a good time for me to make changes.
And I was enjoying working remotely,
(14:16):
to be honest too.
And this would have been,
you know,
back into a full,
full time office job once I lost that job in Boston,
I'm like,
well,
I can call him back,
see what's up.
And he was like,
yes,
I'm still interested in hiring you,
but I don't have any positions right now.
Like,
ok,
he's like,
if something comes up I'll let you know.
So I,
you know,
I did the whole file for unemployment,
start getting the resume to start sending out,
(14:38):
start.
Ok,
I'm doing this cold job search which,
you know,
I really,
really didn't want to do in a week later.
He called me back and his lead analyst just quit like that day,
there's only been a week,
like the timing of it was just crazy that it worked out that way.
And so,
(14:59):
yeah,
actually I came in and started right away and I was still,
I got trained by that guy.
He still had a week left on his two weeks and,
uh,
actually been with that company since so,
and that's been 12 years now.
So,
different jobs in that company.
But I've worked for them the whole time.
It's interesting when I hear about your career and one of the things you mentioned in the very beginning was,
(15:22):
you know,
soft skills,
right?
You clearly have the hard skills,
everybody needs to be able to do what it is that they're doing.
But uh it sounds like most of the jobs are.
All the jobs you have gotten is because you knew somebody,
right?
You worked with somebody and this networking that we get because of the relationships we make because of showing up and doing good work,
(15:43):
helps us navigate and gives us all these different kinds of options.
And so it is interesting that most companies focus on the hard skills are developing and saying relevant with what's going on in the industry,
which obviously is very important.
But it is those soft skills as well.
It's,
it's not one or the other that clearly work together.
(16:04):
But when we think about our life,
not just at one company because Brandon as you have so articulately reminded us companies come and go and positions come and go and so working on who we are as professionals is to our benefit.
And that means not um focusing on one or the other.
(16:24):
You don't want to become irrelevant because the information you had is in an old textbook,
right?
Just like you need to work on who you know,
and those relationships that you build,
that you can help others and they can help you.
Yeah,
for sure.
And I,
you know,
again,
I would never have expected that when I started my career that it worked would work that way.
(16:45):
But I,
it definitely,
and it's not even like an,
for me,
at least not an intentional thing of like,
ok,
I'm gonna,
like,
schmooze up to these guys because I know they're important and they might be able to give me a job,
you know,
it was,
it was much more natural than that.
It was just like people have chemistry with,
(17:06):
you know,
it's like,
oh,
I want,
you know,
I want to work with them and they want to work with me and you just maintain those relationships and then,
you know,
I mean,
obviously,
you know,
one little thing and everything can go differently but,
but the way things worked out for me so far is really leaning into those types of relationships has allowed me to,
(17:27):
to navigate the challenges of layoffs and companies going out of business or,
or whatever.
So,
yeah,
I think,
uh for those of us who are either introverts or,
you know,
uh right on the cusp because I,
I don't consider myself an extrovert.
Um And so networking to me is intimidating.
(17:48):
It's,
I'm not interested in inauthentic relationships or posing and I think a lot of people feel that way.
So you go to a networking event and for many of us it feels terrible.
You're like,
what am I doing,
you know,
like,
you know,
and I'm on social media,
which is really difficult for me because I'm just really not so much interested in showing off my life or that's just really not what I'm interested in,
(18:11):
but I am interested in connecting with others.
And uh I think that's what you said,
like we find that chemistry with others,
we find our people in all these different pockets.
But it,
I think it really does happen with us looking,
looking to build those relationships and being kind and being professional and then we see those people that we match up with and,
(18:34):
and,
you know,
the schmoozing to get something only lasts so long and none of us like to be used it.
So those kinds of relationships are very brittle and they're just usury and they usually fall away.
But when we actually like others because we see them and they see us,
those are the kind that we really should invest in,
(18:57):
which means I think just showing up and doing good work and caring about the people we meet along the way.
Yeah,
for sure.
Yeah.
II,
I agree with that.
It's,
yeah,
like I said,
it's,
I don't go out of my way,
you know,
I am definitely more of an introverted person,
you know,
and,
(19:18):
you know,
meaning that to me,
I guess what that means is like,
I don't,
I don't have a vast network of,
you know,
relationships with people,
you know?
But instead I have a smaller core group,
you know,
and that extended to people that I've met through work,
you know,
and some of the people I met at these jobs are some of my best friends and,
(19:42):
but then also some of them,
some of the,
those same relationships and some of the other ones have been the most important to my career.
So,
yeah,
I,
I think it is.
It's just,
uh,
it's,
it's overlooked.
I think the important importance of meaningful relationships at work and it doesn't mean your best friend or anything like that.
(20:07):
It's a different type of relationship.
Right.
It's,
you can be friends with people.
You're at work but having like a good working rapport with somebody is its own type of unique relationship that makes you and them mutually successful at the job.
So,
yeah.
(20:27):
Well,
put,
I think that's sometimes we think the workplace is like family or it's a hot mess and I hate it but it's like,
you know,
I hate everybody or I want to have drinks with everybody and it's,
it's neither,
I don't think it should be either.
It's something else.
It's an art in and of itself and to have that for those relationships to still be meaningful and fulfilling.
(20:49):
And I love how you put that mutually beneficial.
So,
I do want to talk about your working from home.
So,
you've been in both worlds,
you've worked in offices you've worked remotely hybrid and I'm interested,
um,
and you talking a little bit about how to maintain a good working relationships when you are primarily working remotely because as,
(21:13):
you know,
uh,
we have disagreements that come up because,
because we're human and we have different ideas and we value different things and maybe think the team should go in a different direction or we should allocate resources in a different kind of way.
So,
how have you found mitigating complications or disagreements when you work remotely?
(21:34):
Yeah,
that's a good question.
Yeah,
because it's,
it's definitely,
I mean,
it has a different dynamic to it for sure.
So,
because sometimes,
you know,
in person,
you know,
the conflict can be,
feels like you can't escape from it because you're,
you know,
physically in this location together.
(21:55):
Right?
You can't get away from this person if you needed to or whatever,
but then remotely,
it's easier to like for things to kind of just be ignored and,
you know,
you don't deal with it and it just festers or,
or whatever.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
ii,
I would be honest and,
you know,
that I've been lucky these last few years that I've been doing this current job,
(22:18):
which has been 100% remote since the pandemic.
Uh,
it was part time remote before that.
And,
you know,
I work with a good team and we,
we don't honestly don't have a lot of conflict really.
And,
um,
so,
so it's been,
it's been pretty smooth in that way,
but I have had one particular customer that was difficult,
(22:43):
you know,
a difficult customer,
very demanding.
And this person,
so,
so primarily this job,
at least Pre Panem was based out of an Arbor,
but we did have offices elsewhere.
And so this person in particular worked in San Francisco.
And um so it was always remote even,
(23:05):
you know,
because we worked in different offices,
right?
So,
so we kind of always had this remote dynamic and um you know,
there was definitely like communication issues and what I perceived as kind of a lack of respect coming from him.
And so,
(23:25):
yeah,
that was difficult.
But,
you know,
I think a big,
a big part of it was,
you know,
just kind of focusing on what it was,
we're trying to get done and not taking things personally,
I guess as much as was possible.
And also I came to learn this person,
(23:49):
like in our relationship was not unique,
like other people felt about him the same way I did and had the same issues with him that I did.
And so there was some,
you know,
you kind of,
I don't know what the the term is escaping me,
but you've got this kind of mutual problem,
(24:10):
I guess that you can con mirate about and,
and so you kind of realize like,
ok,
I'm not doing anything wrong.
It's just the way this person is.
And so now how do we deal with?
I think that's important.
So,
well,
of course,
I'm against,
there's this term right now called mobbing,
which as you can imagine,
it's,
you know,
people ganging up on somebody else at work.
Of course,
that's not what we're talking about,
(24:31):
but it's very important to know,
is it just me,
you know,
just so that we can,
as you said,
so articulately so we could figure out what to do,
right?
If it is just me,
ok,
well,
what is this dynamic that's going on between me and this other person and everybody else gets along with this person?
Ok.
So what's going on?
But if everybody else is having similar issues,
(24:52):
then a different path opens up,
you know,
still the question is,
what are we gonna do?
How do we move forward?
We're a team,
how do we work on this project?
And as you said,
you know,
you decided to focus on the work and I agree.
I mean,
that's,
you know,
because we don't,
you know,
there are different personalities out there.
The world needs to have diversity and it doesn't mean that we're always going to be the best fit with other people and you can have a whole team that doesn't fit with somebody else.
(25:21):
But one good psychological trick is to just,
you know,
focus on the work and in so far as it's either not appropriate or not gonna happen or there's just extenuating circumstances such that you can't have a conversation with a person about the just,
you know,
(25:41):
the,
as you said,
perceived disrespect or whatever the issue may be.
If you still wanna continue on in that relationship,
focus on the concrete particular behaviors to move the work forward and that can lessen the,
you know,
the feelings of being attacked.
Yeah.
And for me,
in this specific case,
which might also be generally useful.
(26:03):
So we worked on this big project with him,
he was the main customer,
you know,
we were building this software for him.
And um,
you know,
so one way I kind of mitigated things over time was just learning,
you know,
over time,
what it was that he wanted,
like what was a positive thing for him and what wasn't,
(26:25):
regardless of what I thought,
you know,
just kind of learning,
you know,
what mattered to him.
And um you know,
him being the primary customer and,
you know,
part of my job was making sure what we were doing was,
was exactly what he wanted and what was needed,
you know,
that was kind of my role on this team.
(26:46):
And so theoretically,
he and I would be communicating a lot,
right?
Because it's like we need the specifications from him.
I'm putting the specifications together,
you know,
but as I kind of learned,
you know,
what he was looking for over time,
I had to go to him less and less because I kind of,
(27:06):
you know,
and so it's like,
it's still,
again,
it's this relationship and,
yeah,
it's not,
again,
by no means,
you know,
the type where it's like,
you know,
even mutual respect was very difficult,
let alone friendly or whatever.
But it still was this relationship dynamic where he wanted to get what he wanted.
(27:26):
I needed to learn what that was.
And so over time I was able to,
to do that and more effectively without kind of getting into the,
the parts of the relationship that caused angst or agitation.
So,
and then he left the company and that was a really happy day too.
(27:47):
So,
uh that's the way that a lot of us feel.
I think it is such a good point,
you know,
we can work with people and it,
of course,
there are all these different dynamics,
especially when you're talking about a client,
you know,
you got a customer and you've got the team who's providing the service.
And so there's all those sorts of power dynamics and interest uh as to when it's appropriate.
(28:14):
And of course,
we know that clients can't just do whatever they want.
Uh And companies have a responsibility to make sure that their,
that their people are being,
you know,
not being uh taken advantage of or being mistreated by whatever client at the same time.
If it is your client,
you know,
the more you can figure out what somebody wants which means getting beyond yourself,
(28:37):
right?
Instead of being stewing in or sitting in the real disrespect that's being thrown your way saying,
OK,
this is the way it is.
So how can I listen?
How can I make sure that I don't push back on what he wants,
but give him what he wants so that the customer is happy and is a relief for yourself so that you get,
you don't have to spend as much time uh with this person.
(28:59):
Yeah.
And,
and it honestly,
you know,
became like I started taking that burden off of other people too,
you know,
it's like because we had again this working relationship that again it wasn't what you would call,
you know,
this wasn't,
I mean,
it was functional,
you know,
but it wasn't a positive relationship but,
(29:20):
you know,
that kind of came,
became part of my role too is like,
ok,
I will kind of shield people from this guy too.
Yeah.
Anyway,
I mean,
yeah,
it's just interesting how these things and,
and this,
you know,
again,
there's a lot of people who had this kind of negative dealings with him,
but this was a person in our company who made a lot of money for our company.
(29:43):
So like you were saying,
with power dynamics,
it's like,
you know,
you could go like,
hey,
this guy needs change,
you know,
or we should get rid of him maybe even because of the way he's treating people but it's like that just wasn't an option because he was too good at what he was doing.
Right.
I mean,
he was,
uh you know,
(30:03):
so yeah,
that seems to be like the story is all this time.
Uh the,
the big shot who comes in wheels and deals makes all this money,
but just leaves this wake for everybody else to have to deal with.
And I think for a long time and I think it's still the case that those people are allowed to,
to act that way.
(30:24):
But more and more there is becoming more understanding that we need to have civility clauses and you don't get to break it just because you make money,
right?
This is the culture here.
If you,
if a company is serious about having a culture,
that's for everyone,
the CEO to the part time worker and nobody is more important as a baseline human person.
(30:47):
That means you don't get to break the civility clauses you like this is how we're gonna treat people.
If you can't do that,
you can't work here and you know,
being committed to treating your people well is being committed to that.
And I think you're gonna make more money in the long run because it really tells everybody else what you value.
Yeah.
Yeah,
for sure.
(31:07):
I was just trying while you were saying that I was trying to envision like some kind of like,
you know,
corporate mandate coming down on this guy like that,
you know,
he,
you know,
just i,
it's hard,
so hard to,
to implement things like that,
you know,
in an effective way and,
you know,
and I don't know.
Yeah.
Like,
where do you draw the line?
Maybe something like you do something like that and you weed out some of these people,
(31:30):
like,
I don't want to be part of this and maybe that is,
you know,
even if they are really good at their job,
maybe in the long run,
like you said,
that will be for the,
for the positive.
So it's still worth doing that type of thing.
You know?
Of course,
it's much harder once somebody's been acting that way for a long time,
they think that's normal and there's not a problem.
And so if you,
(31:50):
if a company starts doing it now,
then you set the standard and a lot of times those people will read the writing on the wall.
If they want to stay in this organization,
then they just can't yell and they can't act out and they can't whatever,
throw the tantrum,
you know,
whatever it is they may be doing and they learn and their,
their behavior is reduced,
(32:11):
the negative behavior is reduced because that's the standard.
It's mu it's much easier to put that standard in.
Um It's like once you give an Xbox to a child,
I should know this,
it's hard to take it away.
Right.
But if they never had it in the first place.
Right.
And so we're constantly telling people by,
um,
not the values on the company wall,
but how we act as to what's acceptable here and what do we do when people have a bad day,
(32:34):
make big mistakes or act out.
We need to have real ways to deal with,
have real conversations,
talk to people just,
hey,
we want to get you back on board.
This is what's going on.
Tell me,
you know,
tell me what's happening and give them the tools they need for them to kind of rehab and make amends and move forward or if they don't want to do that,
then we part ways sooner rather than later,
(32:56):
right?
And if you're implementing something like that,
then that helps inform your hiring decisions too,
right?
Kind of like looking out for that,
you know,
so maybe you had a bad actor,
you implement this,
that person leaves and now you're looking for the replacement.
Well,
you're much less likely to get somebody in there who's just gonna do the same thing because you're kind of molding this vision of,
(33:21):
of,
you know,
what you want.
Yeah.
You know,
those relations to be so.
Right.
And I think that having sort of this baseline civility doesn't mean that everybody,
you know,
it's still,
I think you can have the,
the wonder of diversity and all different kinds of personalities and we,
you know,
(33:41):
we just do have these different kinds of personalities and that's wonderful.
And yet you can still,
you know,
demand a basic kind of respect for your neighbor,
your colleague while allowing a wide variety of legitimate different ways to be in the office and get stuff done.
Because I think sometimes people hear that like,
oh you want to make everybody the same,
(34:02):
you want everyone to fit into this corporate culture and there is something to culture in an organization.
But this is just more just like baseline,
you know,
no yelling,
no screaming,
no degrading,
you know,
basic decency.
Yeah.
And I have a high tolerance for those things.
I think in this particular case,
it was like the lack of respect like,
(34:23):
you know,
and then we had this whole team doing all this work for this guy and it was just like,
you would just,
you do one little thing wrong and you dismiss it like you,
you know,
anyway,
but you know,
so it takes a lot of forms,
I guess,
you know,
because you mentioned like the yelling and you know,
that type of stuff that's very obvious,
like bad behavior to be so much more subtle sometimes.
(34:46):
And for me personally,
like,
I don't really care if someone yelling because I'm just like,
what you know,
that to me is just like ridiculous behavior.
But if you know,
again,
it's like,
I'm doing all this work and,
and it's being treated as if it didn't exist or it was worthless or whatever.
It's,
yeah,
that,
that hurts me a lot more.
(35:06):
So,
yeah,
in our organizations we,
so we want to be seen and noticed and appreciated appropriately.
But being dismissed and minimized is a sure way for people to start thinking that this is not the place for them.
Right.
If this is what's going to be tolerated,
we're not gonna see people then,
(35:27):
yeah,
you're right.
It is easier to see the yelling and say that's bad.
But the other,
the other adults like how we,
how adults ought to see and treat one another,
we,
we notice people's work,
we don't minimize them.
So Brandon,
can you tell us about the best work experience you had with a boss or a colleague?
(35:49):
And what was so good about it for you?
Yeah.
So I,
I mean,
II I can speak to without going into too much specifics.
I mean,
my,
my experience with bosses in general and I've had,
you know,
definitely had experiences I would consider on both sides of the,
the positive and negative spectrum there.
(36:11):
But,
you know,
I think the most positive experiences I've had are when you feel empowered by your boss,
you know,
not so much like do these exact 10 things and then you will get the job done exactly how you want it versus like,
you know,
kind of putting you in an environment,
(36:31):
giving you the tools that you need,
you know,
and kind of letting you do it yourself.
At least for me that's a big part of it because I don't,
I having that kind of like,
uh,
you know,
it's almost a creativity to kind of figure out the solution yourself.
Um,
and it really gives you a sense of ownership that,
like,
oh,
I,
I did this,
I figured it out.
(36:52):
And so when I've been in those situations,
like that's,
that definitely creates like,
uh the most positive work environment and,
and then I've had times in those situations where it's like,
you know,
I have a question about something and,
and I go and ask like,
OK,
how do you want me to do this and,
and you know,
and,
and getting the answer of like,
figure it out,
(37:13):
you know,
which so,
and then initially,
like,
I just just tell me,
you know,
I just,
you know,
but then it's like,
you know,
it turns into this positive of like,
you know,
you have growth as you figured it out,
you can get in these situations in a job where it's like,
it's so can be so mundane sometimes and,
you know,
(37:34):
you can feel really stagnant.
And so I just think having an environment where the person in charge has created that kind of place where people can have room to grow and,
and figure things out on their own.
And within reason,
of course,
I mean,
there needs to be direction and structure as Well,
but because on the other side of the coin,
(37:54):
for me,
the more negative experiences has been kind of the opposite of,
I had one boss in particular that was like,
just it really,
like whenever something it got to a point where it was important he just took over,
you know,
instead of,
and I was like,
why am I even here?
You know,
like if you're just gonna do it then the things that matter,
(38:17):
you don't need me for the rest of it.
Like,
so,
you know,
so,
you know,
I guess kind of cliche the micro manager,
you know,
I think that's uh but it,
it does create an environment that,
you know,
from,
from my perspective is,
is not a,
you know,
it is not a healthy one.
You bring up a good point about this idea of being stagnant and when you're in a job or in a place for a long time,
(38:41):
it can become very rote and you're good at doing the thing and,
but it gets boring and we,
we want to engage our minds and we want to continually contribute instead of just feel like we are cognitive machine,
you know,
we're just doing the thing we've always done.
And so when it sounds like you were saying that when bosses trust and,
(39:06):
and trust their employees and make that environment so that they are empowered to be creative when it matters,
as you said,
not just these little things like,
you know,
plan the birthday party,
who cares?
Plan the Christmas party.
I'm doing it because the donors are showing up.
Right.
But really,
really being partners,
(39:26):
not just in name only.
So being trusted that you can do it.
So it sounds like there's,
I mean,
there is a sweet spot of you don't want to micromanage and you don't want to,
you know,
just be completely absent.
I don't know if you've ever had an absent boss.
I have,
you know,
where it's like,
where are they?
I,
I really don't know what you want and you just want it done,
(39:49):
but I don't know what done looks like.
I don't know the resources,
I don't know your vision at all or the organization's vision.
So,
what have you seen works for you,
especially as you are in a remote environment where those conditions where you're able to be creative and trusted but not micromanaged or just left out in the way.
(40:11):
And what are some,
like,
real practical things that you can that you see that have been implemented that works to sort of create that environment?
Yeah,
I mean,
that's a good question.
I think in my current situation there's,
yeah,
a lot,
there is a lot of trust.
I mean,
that's certainly a good,
good word to use.
Um,
and that obviously goes both ways,
right.
That's,
(40:31):
it's not just you a directional,
like the manager needs to trust the employee and the employee needs to trust the manager.
You know,
one thing we do is like,
we have a,
we have like our whole group has a,
a daily meeting.
Um and it's kind of framed like our boss is there,
(40:51):
right?
The guy in charge of the group,
but it's also like kind of say like,
ok,
what happened yesterday?
What do we plan to do today?
And are there any obstacles in our way of getting what we need to get done today?
You know,
that we need help with?
And it is partly an update meeting for the boss,
but there's also kind of a peer dynamic there where one it's a chance for collaborations like,
(41:18):
hey,
I'm having this problem and this other guy is like,
oh,
I,
I just worked on that last week.
Let's talk after the meeting,
we can figure that out.
So those kind of things just naturally come out of that.
But also for me,
II,
I feel like there's like a,
a peer accountability that comes with that too,
that you're talking with your peers about the stuff that you're working on and so the boss could not be there and the meeting should still be the same because we're accountable to each other.
(41:48):
We're all,
you know,
we might be working on different projects.
But,
you know,
at the same time,
we're on the same team,
we're working towards the same larger goals.
And,
you know,
it's important to,
to show to your coworkers that you are engaged and,
and,
you know,
I just,
I think,
helps everyone feel better about what they're doing when they hear all this stuff that's going on.
(42:10):
You know,
even if some or a lot of it they're not directly involved with.
So,
yeah,
I,
I don't think that's a,
I don't know,
I haven't really,
I don't know that that's the thing may,
that might just be a personal thing for me.
But I,
I,
I kind of like it,
you know,
from that standpoint too of it just,
it's not being just an update for the boss meeting.
(42:32):
It's a,
you know,
again,
a accountable being accountable to your peers.
I love that so much for so many reasons.
It,
it just sounds like when I talk to people,
one problem is lack of communication,
lack of transparency.
We don't know what's really going on,
we know what we're working on and then,
you know,
you know,
people always wonder,
you know,
like,
(42:52):
what isn't,
what are these other people doing?
I'm spending all this time doing this.
I don't really see what they're doing,
but the continual update shows what others are doing how it fits with you and they see what you're doing.
And I love that,
that,
that peer,
as you said,
peer accountability and it really helps with that buy in like this is our team,
(43:13):
this is our group.
I'm not,
I'm not just lone little person working for the boss.
But I imagine it,
it,
I mean,
it does help to create that trust,
which trust is all important if you're going to have a healthy work environment,
if you don't trust people,
I mean,
that's,
that's gonna be the base problem we got to work on.
Why are you not trusting people?
What's breaking down,
(43:34):
what's going on?
So,
how,
how long are these meetings?
I think they're supposed to be 15 minutes because it's,
I mean,
obviously depends on the size of your group.
I mean,
I,
I think,
you know,
everyone's probably keeping their update to a minute or less is the idea.
Sometimes things come up,
we get off on a little tangent.
But yeah,
(43:54):
ours are usually half hour.
Although I think because we've been remote,
although some of the people are going back into the office now,
but we're still all primarily remote.
We do kind of,
I would say use the other 15 minutes as kind of our social,
like,
you know,
a little bit of social time,
like water cooler times that we can't have,
we're not in the office together.
(44:15):
So,
yeah,
I mean,
it's meant to be very brief because it's not supposed to like,
drag on and,
and take up a big chunk of your day because then it starts getting into,
you know,
that just kind of a waste,
wasting time a little bit.
But I think,
yeah,
I mean,
it's like there's people in this meeting that I have,
I see them every day and I,
I've not worked directly with them maybe in years.
(44:37):
You know,
and I,
if I didn't have this meeting I'd be like,
is that person even still at the company?
Like,
I,
you know,
and so,
like you said,
it's just so many,
like,
random times something has come up and it's like,
oh,
that person is working on this because I,
I know that and,
and it's useful information.
Uh So,
yeah,
I think it,
I don't,
(44:58):
I don't think our group would function the same at all if we didn't,
didn't have that take the time to do that every day.
It sounds like really such an excellent use of time.
A lot of people talk about how meetings are terrible and they're a horrible waste of time.
And of course many meetings are,
if they're not run efficiently,
if,
if they're not,
(45:19):
you know,
run appropriately for the kind of team and the kind of work that people are doing then it's,
they're awful to be subjected to.
But I've also worked in places where there are no meetings and I don't know,
I've worked in both environments where there are too many meetings and,
I mean,
zero meetings and I almost think I would take the too many meetings because at least I knew what was going on.
(45:42):
At least I had other people I could talk to and see what was happening instead of being completely in the dark.
Yeah,
I have my own personal rule of like,
when I'm creating a meeting.
So it's my meeting and I'm running it and I'm asking all these people to spend their time,
you know,
for me it's like 30 minutes is my default.
(46:03):
And if that's not enough time there's gonna be a really good reason for it to be longer,
you know.
But let's get what we can done,
get done in 30 minutes and then let everyone go and then maybe we need another meeting later because,
you know,
but I just,
I know for me personally,
my focus starts to wander in meetings after that amount of time.
And I just feel like I wanna be respectful of other people's time because,
(46:27):
you know,
they've got other stuff we need to do.
And again,
like I said,
you get,
you know,
you stay focused,
you get what you can done in that time frame and then if you need more,
you,
you schedule another meeting for 30 minutes that it,
you know,
the next time.
So,
and as you said,
in the,
in the group meeting,
if you need to talk to somebody else,
then you,
(46:48):
you know,
schedule your own,
you know,
meeting with that person.
So making everybody subjected to the specific thing that you two were talking about.
And so that's another way to connect the people and yet be respectful of the group's time that that's really great.
So Brandon,
I'd like to end with this question when you think into the future of work,
what do you think needs to happen?
(47:09):
So that not only are all workers treated with dignity and respect,
but people are encouraged to flourish.
Uh So just a simple question to finish.
Yeah,
just,
you know,
easy,
easy,
busy.
Yeah,
I mean,
I think,
I think we've touched on a lot of it is that,
you know,
really it does come down to relationships and understanding,
(47:33):
you know,
that that's what it's about,
uh,
in the work environment and creating that environment where people can,
can work together and respect each other and foster those relationships.
And really,
it's something I've in the last five years with a lot has happened and COVID and just kind of even in life in general,
(47:55):
kind of coming to that realization that it's like relationships are so important to everything that we do and I don't think the workplace is any different,
you know,
get locked into this,
like,
focus on being productive.
Oh,
like this is a job.
So productivity is all that matters.
And I don't think that creates a healthy environment for anybody,
(48:18):
for most people.
At least.
I,
so,
yeah,
I think,
and then,
you know,
strategies for that,
I mean,
you probably could have a million different things but I think maintaining that focus on relationships and,
I mean,
there's so many different relationships in a,
in a workplace Right.
I mean,
you've got manager to employee,
(48:38):
you know,
you've got clients and vendors,
you've got peers,
you know.
So I,
I think,
you know,
having that focus and understanding that those relationships are,
are the key and,
and that makes your workers happier and you're happier,
workers will be your productive workers and then your productive workers make the company successful.
(48:59):
So you don't have to start with productivity.
You start with creating this positive environment for your employees and then you have good employees and then you have a good company.
So well said,
I mean,
a excellent,
I absolutely agree.
You want productivity.
You want engagement,
work on your relationships.
Absolutely.
(49:19):
Well,
Brandon,
thank you so much for your time.
It's been a delight to talk with you.
I get to talk to you about all different kinds of family things,
but it's fun to talk about your work experience and insights.
Yeah,
this has been great.
Thanks for having me on.
Yeah.
All right.
Well,
take care.
All right.
You too.
Thank you Brandon for being on Conflict Managed.
I've been wanting to talk to you on this podcast for quite some time and what a joy it is to find out more about your work experience.
(49:46):
And I just could not agree more in order to have healthy work environments,
we need to work on our relationships.
We'll come back next Tuesday.
We have new podcasts every Tuesday.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party.
Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
(50:10):
Check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (50:11):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It looks at 80 things of what NOT to do at work and starts a conversation about what to do instead in order to have those healthy work environments.
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it. Until next time.
(50:33):
Take care.
So,
so.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it under wraps now.
No,
get a sun uptight asking questions.
(00:25):
So John,
welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we are joined by Brandon Brown.
Brandon graduated from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor with the BSE in Computer engineering and a master's degree in Information systems and Business Administration from North Central College.
(00:46):
Brandon has worked in various roles in software development since 1999 with the last 20 years of that in the energy industry.
Aside from his career,
Brandon enjoys playing tennis,
spending time in nature,
traveling and visiting with his family.
Good morning,
Brandon and welcome to Conflict Managed.
Good morning.
I have the distinct pleasure of interviewing Brandon,
(01:08):
my brother in law,
who I have known for 28-29 years.
And so is that how long it's been?
That is how long you were in high school when I met you?
So a lot has transpired since then.
So let's begin.
Like I begin all of the shows by asking about the first job you ever had as a young man.
(01:30):
What did you,
what was your first job?
So I was a computer engineer major in college.
And so my first job was in the um Chicago area at engineering firm there that built telecommunication equipment.
(01:51):
And I was on one of the support teams for one of the products that they had.
And so we would get,
you know,
customer issues that would come in that would require,
you know,
modifications to the system.
I was on the software side.
So I make software changes to the,
the code for the,
(02:13):
for the product.
And uh yeah,
so we had a lot of customer contact,
a lot of contact with our customer service department because everything came through them.
And then we also kind of tied back to the,
you know,
development teams who were,
who created the product and we're creating new products and new versions of the product.
And so you're kind of in the middle of that whole process there.
(02:36):
That's a lot of moving parts to try to coordinate.
Yeah,
it was interesting as a,
as a first job too because it,
it wasn't,
I mean,
you kind of go to school for engineering and you figure you're just gonna be making things,
you know,
in this case,
software for me.
But,
you know,
(02:56):
I was thrown into kind of a job that had a lot of like people skills required and,
and,
you know,
a lot of it was,
you know more of a softer skills,
I guess,
which was,
you know,
not necessarily what I was expecting coming out of school,
but I think it was probably good for me to start being exposed to that.
Cause as I've gone through my career,
(03:17):
I've learned,
you know,
a lot of that is,
is really important,
at least from what I have experienced,
it's,
you know,
relationships just kind of become the driver of everything.
And so you really need to,
to learn how to handle different situations with people.
And very rarely,
you know,
you might,
maybe in school,
you've got a lot of projects where you can just kind of go into your cave and just kind of do it from beginning to end when very rarely works that way.
(03:45):
You know,
at a company,
you're always kind of in some kind of group situation,
whether that's with coworkers or customers or management or whatever it might be.
You know,
that's such a good point because a lot of times in high school or college we think about group work,
we're like,
oh,
group work is the worst.
Let me just do it on my own.
(04:06):
This isn't like real life.
And who would have thought that that's probably the most like real life trying to navigate who's gonna do what,
at what time and what quality and being on the same page as to what the assignment is at the first place.
That is what a lot of adult working is about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't think again,
(04:26):
in my experience,
at least school,
I mean,
certainly do a lot of group work but it's still not to say you don't,
I didn't feel prepared for that really,
you know,
by school.
So,
so what was the dynamic like with the team that you worked with and your boss?
What,
what did,
what just,
what was it like in that,
that first job in particular?
(04:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,
I mean,
it was,
it was a pretty good dynamic overall.
I mean,
when I first started,
I had a wide kind of range of,
of experience in the group,
you know,
couple of people who had only been there a couple of years and,
you know,
the,
the senior guys were,
you know,
(05:07):
my age now,
so old back then,
you know,
20 plus years of experience and,
and our boss was actually a pretty young guy.
I mean,
he was like,
I think he was like 29 the guy who was in charge of the group that he was kind of like a,
you know,
a guy on an upward trajectory in the corporate ladder,
I guess you could say.
But so,
but yeah,
I mean,
(05:28):
I had,
it was very positive in general,
uh from,
you know,
everyone was very welcoming and really diverse group too,
like a lot of very different backgrounds in that group.
And I don't know if that was part of it,
part of it just being in Chicago.
And so it's kind of had that kind of like,
you know,
big city diversity to it even though we weren't in the city proper.
(05:49):
But,
you know,
so I,
I learned a lot from,
from people just because of that just because of the very varying life experiences that,
that they had.
But yeah,
in terms of working again,
it was like being thrown into a kind of,
again,
a more of a customer support type of role.
It's like there's so much to learn because what you come in day one,
(06:10):
you don't know anything.
And um you know,
so you can't really effectively do the job,
you know,
on day one whi which is probably true for anything.
But it was,
yeah,
there was a lot of,
a lot of learning to do there.
And so it was good to have,
you know,
a group and I was assigned a mentor like they had,
you know,
that was,
you know,
right from day one,
(06:31):
you know,
I had a mentor which I think was,
was a good,
you know,
way of handling that for somebody who was fresh out of college.
And I don't know how common that is necessarily.
But so that helped a lot too to have that one person I knew I could go to,
you know,
that's so interesting because with all the different parties that you're talking with customer,
(06:52):
external customers,
internal different groups within the organization.
And then you talk about all the diversity with age and background and experience.
It just sounds like it's a breeding ground for uh miscommunication and dysfunction.
And it sounds like you had the opposite.
And it's interesting that you mentioned from day one,
you had a mentor.
I have talked to a lot of people and nobody has ever told me that.
(07:16):
And I want,
I mean,
that sounds like intentionality of bringing people on board as we know on boarding is so important that tells the new person so much about what's going on here was expected of them.
And they do,
as you said,
you have a go to person to ask the questions that all new people have a variety of questions.
I think that's pretty interesting.
(07:37):
Yeah.
And,
and it's all the jobs I've had since then,
like,
I don't think any of them had like a,
a formal mentoring program like that.
So it's been unique in my experience as well.
But yeah,
obviously very thankful that I had that for my first job because that was for me when I would have needed it the most.
For sure.
(07:58):
Right.
Right.
Right.
When you are first starting off you,
and as you mentioned,
anytime you go to a new job,
you're not going to be,
you know,
knowing what to do right off the bat because you got to figure out the culture and exactly what the job is.
But when you really are new right out of college.
And then having that as your first real job setting the tone to help you through the rest of your career.
(08:19):
That,
that's a real blessing.
So,
where did you go after that job?
I left that job.
I was there for about four years.
I moved back to Ann Arbor where I went to school in Michigan from Chicago.
And actually,
it was kind of,
I was unemployed for a bit,
but I got a,
a job in Ann Arbor through a friend of mine.
(08:41):
Actually,
I was roommates with him at the time too.
And I worked for a small energy company that was selling power to uh individual businesses on the,
the retail market,
which was at the time.
So this,
we're talking 2003 or so was kind of a new kind of burgeoning thing of this idea that you didn't have to buy your power from the utility.
(09:07):
You could have other choices and all that varied state by state and was something brand new kind of in Michigan at the time actually.
So that was my introduction to the,
the energy industry,
which is I've been in ever since in one form or another.
So obviously,
it's,
yeah,
kind of a random stumbling into it that's like took me down this road that I've been on for,
(09:31):
for the last 20 years now.
But that job.
So I was,
uh,
wasn't so much strictly you know,
a software developer or anything like that.
But we did,
we did a lot of our own development of the systems that we used to run the business.
So it was and analysts that,
you know,
help to manage our customer load,
doing forecasting,
scheduling,
(09:51):
predictive modeling,
stuff like that.
So we kind of build all that in house.
So the job itself was like staying on top of that on a day to day basis.
But then there was also kind of like long term like how can we enhance these things or what are we missing from our processes that you know,
that we we should build for the future to,
to better be able to run the business.
(10:14):
So stuff like that.
And this was a very small company,
my first job,
you know,
was more of a corporate 4000 employee company and this was,
this was a company of like 10 people,
so very,
very different experience.
But yeah,
so that,
that was the second job.
So how did you get to where you are today?
Yeah.
(10:34):
So it really,
it really flowed out of that job.
So one discovery I made working for this company,
uh was that the the retail energy industry that subsector of energy is very volatile.
And so that company went out of business,
I think,
well,
that's not really the right term but stopped operating 18 months or so after I,
(10:58):
I started working there and there was another company doing kind of similar is actually a company based in California.
And they had purchased a company in Michigan that was doing similar things on the retail market.
And so when they heard that we were stopping operations,
they kind of came in and interviewed all of us to see if there was anyone they would be interested in hiring.
(11:21):
And so I got hired by that company and uh that was probably one of my most challenging jobs.
I had that for about a year.
And then they moved all the Michigan people to Dallas and I think I made the correct decision to not do that,
to not follow them.
They,
you know,
they wanted me and they gave me like a relocation offer and all of that.
(11:41):
And I think I considered it for about 24 hours but woke up the next morning and was like,
yeah,
no,
I'm not,
I'm not doing it.
I'm not moving to Dallas for this crazy job.
So,
but through that job,
I had met some,
some other.
So,
so this other company um can have done some software consulting for us.
(12:02):
And so they were looking to expand and so I was able to,
to interview with them and,
and they,
they hired me and they were based in Boston.
And um that was a job that I had for about four years.
And that was my first exposure to working remotely,
which I do full time now,
which obviously the whole whole other thing we could talk about potentially.
(12:25):
So I did some traveling with that job out to Boston and to other clients.
But it was similar,
actually,
it wasn't similar too.
So we were um you know,
these were a company that uh helped uh other en energy companies with,
with their software needs and,
(12:45):
and we had,
you know,
different clients that had different systems that we worked on.
So this was back more to it was in the energy industry,
but back more to like a pure software slash engineering type job,
not operating an energy business,
but,
you know,
supplying and supporting software for other energy companies.
(13:07):
And that lasted for almost four years I think.
And uh you know,
there was some,
some tumultuous times there just again,
another small company,
you know,
about the same size as the energy company I worked for in Ann Arbor uh 10 people or so.
And there was some movement and management to change things and eventually they,
(13:31):
they laid me off after four years and then I think they went out of business like three months later or something like that,
which I always like to say it was not a coincidence,
but,
you know,
so,
so that was like,
OK,
now,
now what do I do?
And I,
I had uh reached out to person I worked for,
(13:55):
at the,
at the original energy company in Ann Arbor and I knew he was working for another company.
He had actually approached me while I was still working for this company in Boston about,
you know,
possibly coming to work for him and I was in the middle.
I,
it just wasn't a good time for me to make changes.
And I was enjoying working remotely,
(14:16):
to be honest too.
And this would have been,
you know,
back into a full,
full time office job once I lost that job in Boston,
I'm like,
well,
I can call him back,
see what's up.
And he was like,
yes,
I'm still interested in hiring you,
but I don't have any positions right now.
Like,
ok,
he's like,
if something comes up I'll let you know.
So I,
you know,
I did the whole file for unemployment,
start getting the resume to start sending out,
(14:38):
start.
Ok,
I'm doing this cold job search which,
you know,
I really,
really didn't want to do in a week later.
He called me back and his lead analyst just quit like that day,
there's only been a week,
like the timing of it was just crazy that it worked out that way.
And so,
(14:59):
yeah,
actually I came in and started right away and I was still,
I got trained by that guy.
He still had a week left on his two weeks and,
uh,
actually been with that company since so,
and that's been 12 years now.
So,
different jobs in that company.
But I've worked for them the whole time.
It's interesting when I hear about your career and one of the things you mentioned in the very beginning was,
(15:22):
you know,
soft skills,
right?
You clearly have the hard skills,
everybody needs to be able to do what it is that they're doing.
But uh it sounds like most of the jobs are.
All the jobs you have gotten is because you knew somebody,
right?
You worked with somebody and this networking that we get because of the relationships we make because of showing up and doing good work,
(15:43):
helps us navigate and gives us all these different kinds of options.
And so it is interesting that most companies focus on the hard skills are developing and saying relevant with what's going on in the industry,
which obviously is very important.
But it is those soft skills as well.
It's,
it's not one or the other that clearly work together.
(16:04):
But when we think about our life,
not just at one company because Brandon as you have so articulately reminded us companies come and go and positions come and go and so working on who we are as professionals is to our benefit.
And that means not um focusing on one or the other.
(16:24):
You don't want to become irrelevant because the information you had is in an old textbook,
right?
Just like you need to work on who you know,
and those relationships that you build,
that you can help others and they can help you.
Yeah,
for sure.
And I,
you know,
again,
I would never have expected that when I started my career that it worked would work that way.
(16:45):
But I,
it definitely,
and it's not even like an,
for me,
at least not an intentional thing of like,
ok,
I'm gonna,
like,
schmooze up to these guys because I know they're important and they might be able to give me a job,
you know,
it was,
it was much more natural than that.
It was just like people have chemistry with,
(17:06):
you know,
it's like,
oh,
I want,
you know,
I want to work with them and they want to work with me and you just maintain those relationships and then,
you know,
I mean,
obviously,
you know,
one little thing and everything can go differently but,
but the way things worked out for me so far is really leaning into those types of relationships has allowed me to,
(17:27):
to navigate the challenges of layoffs and companies going out of business or,
or whatever.
So,
yeah,
I think,
uh for those of us who are either introverts or,
you know,
uh right on the cusp because I,
I don't consider myself an extrovert.
Um And so networking to me is intimidating.
(17:48):
It's,
I'm not interested in inauthentic relationships or posing and I think a lot of people feel that way.
So you go to a networking event and for many of us it feels terrible.
You're like,
what am I doing,
you know,
like,
you know,
and I'm on social media,
which is really difficult for me because I'm just really not so much interested in showing off my life or that's just really not what I'm interested in,
(18:11):
but I am interested in connecting with others.
And uh I think that's what you said,
like we find that chemistry with others,
we find our people in all these different pockets.
But it,
I think it really does happen with us looking,
looking to build those relationships and being kind and being professional and then we see those people that we match up with and,
(18:34):
and,
you know,
the schmoozing to get something only lasts so long and none of us like to be used it.
So those kinds of relationships are very brittle and they're just usury and they usually fall away.
But when we actually like others because we see them and they see us,
those are the kind that we really should invest in,
(18:57):
which means I think just showing up and doing good work and caring about the people we meet along the way.
Yeah,
for sure.
Yeah.
II,
I agree with that.
It's,
yeah,
like I said,
it's,
I don't go out of my way,
you know,
I am definitely more of an introverted person,
you know,
and,
(19:18):
you know,
meaning that to me,
I guess what that means is like,
I don't,
I don't have a vast network of,
you know,
relationships with people,
you know?
But instead I have a smaller core group,
you know,
and that extended to people that I've met through work,
you know,
and some of the people I met at these jobs are some of my best friends and,
(19:42):
but then also some of them,
some of the,
those same relationships and some of the other ones have been the most important to my career.
So,
yeah,
I,
I think it is.
It's just,
uh,
it's,
it's overlooked.
I think the important importance of meaningful relationships at work and it doesn't mean your best friend or anything like that.
(20:07):
It's a different type of relationship.
Right.
It's,
you can be friends with people.
You're at work but having like a good working rapport with somebody is its own type of unique relationship that makes you and them mutually successful at the job.
So,
yeah.
(20:27):
Well,
put,
I think that's sometimes we think the workplace is like family or it's a hot mess and I hate it but it's like,
you know,
I hate everybody or I want to have drinks with everybody and it's,
it's neither,
I don't think it should be either.
It's something else.
It's an art in and of itself and to have that for those relationships to still be meaningful and fulfilling.
(20:49):
And I love how you put that mutually beneficial.
So,
I do want to talk about your working from home.
So,
you've been in both worlds,
you've worked in offices you've worked remotely hybrid and I'm interested,
um,
and you talking a little bit about how to maintain a good working relationships when you are primarily working remotely because as,
(21:13):
you know,
uh,
we have disagreements that come up because,
because we're human and we have different ideas and we value different things and maybe think the team should go in a different direction or we should allocate resources in a different kind of way.
So,
how have you found mitigating complications or disagreements when you work remotely?
(21:34):
Yeah,
that's a good question.
Yeah,
because it's,
it's definitely,
I mean,
it has a different dynamic to it for sure.
So,
because sometimes,
you know,
in person,
you know,
the conflict can be,
feels like you can't escape from it because you're,
you know,
physically in this location together.
(21:55):
Right?
You can't get away from this person if you needed to or whatever,
but then remotely,
it's easier to like for things to kind of just be ignored and,
you know,
you don't deal with it and it just festers or,
or whatever.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
ii,
I would be honest and,
you know,
that I've been lucky these last few years that I've been doing this current job,
(22:18):
which has been 100% remote since the pandemic.
Uh,
it was part time remote before that.
And,
you know,
I work with a good team and we,
we don't honestly don't have a lot of conflict really.
And,
um,
so,
so it's been,
it's been pretty smooth in that way,
but I have had one particular customer that was difficult,
(22:43):
you know,
a difficult customer,
very demanding.
And this person,
so,
so primarily this job,
at least Pre Panem was based out of an Arbor,
but we did have offices elsewhere.
And so this person in particular worked in San Francisco.
And um so it was always remote even,
(23:05):
you know,
because we worked in different offices,
right?
So,
so we kind of always had this remote dynamic and um you know,
there was definitely like communication issues and what I perceived as kind of a lack of respect coming from him.
And so,
(23:25):
yeah,
that was difficult.
But,
you know,
I think a big,
a big part of it was,
you know,
just kind of focusing on what it was,
we're trying to get done and not taking things personally,
I guess as much as was possible.
And also I came to learn this person,
(23:49):
like in our relationship was not unique,
like other people felt about him the same way I did and had the same issues with him that I did.
And so there was some,
you know,
you kind of,
I don't know what the the term is escaping me,
but you've got this kind of mutual problem,
(24:10):
I guess that you can con mirate about and,
and so you kind of realize like,
ok,
I'm not doing anything wrong.
It's just the way this person is.
And so now how do we deal with?
I think that's important.
So,
well,
of course,
I'm against,
there's this term right now called mobbing,
which as you can imagine,
it's,
you know,
people ganging up on somebody else at work.
Of course,
that's not what we're talking about,
(24:31):
but it's very important to know,
is it just me,
you know,
just so that we can,
as you said,
so articulately so we could figure out what to do,
right?
If it is just me,
ok,
well,
what is this dynamic that's going on between me and this other person and everybody else gets along with this person?
Ok.
So what's going on?
But if everybody else is having similar issues,
(24:52):
then a different path opens up,
you know,
still the question is,
what are we gonna do?
How do we move forward?
We're a team,
how do we work on this project?
And as you said,
you know,
you decided to focus on the work and I agree.
I mean,
that's,
you know,
because we don't,
you know,
there are different personalities out there.
The world needs to have diversity and it doesn't mean that we're always going to be the best fit with other people and you can have a whole team that doesn't fit with somebody else.
(25:21):
But one good psychological trick is to just,
you know,
focus on the work and in so far as it's either not appropriate or not gonna happen or there's just extenuating circumstances such that you can't have a conversation with a person about the just,
you know,
(25:41):
the,
as you said,
perceived disrespect or whatever the issue may be.
If you still wanna continue on in that relationship,
focus on the concrete particular behaviors to move the work forward and that can lessen the,
you know,
the feelings of being attacked.
Yeah.
And for me,
in this specific case,
which might also be generally useful.
(26:03):
So we worked on this big project with him,
he was the main customer,
you know,
we were building this software for him.
And um,
you know,
so one way I kind of mitigated things over time was just learning,
you know,
over time,
what it was that he wanted,
like what was a positive thing for him and what wasn't,
(26:25):
regardless of what I thought,
you know,
just kind of learning,
you know,
what mattered to him.
And um you know,
him being the primary customer and,
you know,
part of my job was making sure what we were doing was,
was exactly what he wanted and what was needed,
you know,
that was kind of my role on this team.
(26:46):
And so theoretically,
he and I would be communicating a lot,
right?
Because it's like we need the specifications from him.
I'm putting the specifications together,
you know,
but as I kind of learned,
you know,
what he was looking for over time,
I had to go to him less and less because I kind of,
(27:06):
you know,
and so it's like,
it's still,
again,
it's this relationship and,
yeah,
it's not,
again,
by no means,
you know,
the type where it's like,
you know,
even mutual respect was very difficult,
let alone friendly or whatever.
But it still was this relationship dynamic where he wanted to get what he wanted.
(27:26):
I needed to learn what that was.
And so over time I was able to,
to do that and more effectively without kind of getting into the,
the parts of the relationship that caused angst or agitation.
So,
and then he left the company and that was a really happy day too.
(27:47):
So,
uh that's the way that a lot of us feel.
I think it is such a good point,
you know,
we can work with people and it,
of course,
there are all these different dynamics,
especially when you're talking about a client,
you know,
you got a customer and you've got the team who's providing the service.
And so there's all those sorts of power dynamics and interest uh as to when it's appropriate.
(28:14):
And of course,
we know that clients can't just do whatever they want.
Uh And companies have a responsibility to make sure that their,
that their people are being,
you know,
not being uh taken advantage of or being mistreated by whatever client at the same time.
If it is your client,
you know,
the more you can figure out what somebody wants which means getting beyond yourself,
(28:37):
right?
Instead of being stewing in or sitting in the real disrespect that's being thrown your way saying,
OK,
this is the way it is.
So how can I listen?
How can I make sure that I don't push back on what he wants,
but give him what he wants so that the customer is happy and is a relief for yourself so that you get,
you don't have to spend as much time uh with this person.
(28:59):
Yeah.
And,
and it honestly,
you know,
became like I started taking that burden off of other people too,
you know,
it's like because we had again this working relationship that again it wasn't what you would call,
you know,
this wasn't,
I mean,
it was functional,
you know,
but it wasn't a positive relationship but,
(29:20):
you know,
that kind of came,
became part of my role too is like,
ok,
I will kind of shield people from this guy too.
Yeah.
Anyway,
I mean,
yeah,
it's just interesting how these things and,
and this,
you know,
again,
there's a lot of people who had this kind of negative dealings with him,
but this was a person in our company who made a lot of money for our company.
(29:43):
So like you were saying,
with power dynamics,
it's like,
you know,
you could go like,
hey,
this guy needs change,
you know,
or we should get rid of him maybe even because of the way he's treating people but it's like that just wasn't an option because he was too good at what he was doing.
Right.
I mean,
he was,
uh you know,
(30:03):
so yeah,
that seems to be like the story is all this time.
Uh the,
the big shot who comes in wheels and deals makes all this money,
but just leaves this wake for everybody else to have to deal with.
And I think for a long time and I think it's still the case that those people are allowed to,
to act that way.
(30:24):
But more and more there is becoming more understanding that we need to have civility clauses and you don't get to break it just because you make money,
right?
This is the culture here.
If you,
if a company is serious about having a culture,
that's for everyone,
the CEO to the part time worker and nobody is more important as a baseline human person.
(30:47):
That means you don't get to break the civility clauses you like this is how we're gonna treat people.
If you can't do that,
you can't work here and you know,
being committed to treating your people well is being committed to that.
And I think you're gonna make more money in the long run because it really tells everybody else what you value.
Yeah.
Yeah,
for sure.
(31:07):
I was just trying while you were saying that I was trying to envision like some kind of like,
you know,
corporate mandate coming down on this guy like that,
you know,
he,
you know,
just i,
it's hard,
so hard to,
to implement things like that,
you know,
in an effective way and,
you know,
and I don't know.
Yeah.
Like,
where do you draw the line?
Maybe something like you do something like that and you weed out some of these people,
(31:30):
like,
I don't want to be part of this and maybe that is,
you know,
even if they are really good at their job,
maybe in the long run,
like you said,
that will be for the,
for the positive.
So it's still worth doing that type of thing.
You know?
Of course,
it's much harder once somebody's been acting that way for a long time,
they think that's normal and there's not a problem.
And so if you,
(31:50):
if a company starts doing it now,
then you set the standard and a lot of times those people will read the writing on the wall.
If they want to stay in this organization,
then they just can't yell and they can't act out and they can't whatever,
throw the tantrum,
you know,
whatever it is they may be doing and they learn and their,
their behavior is reduced,
(32:11):
the negative behavior is reduced because that's the standard.
It's mu it's much easier to put that standard in.
Um It's like once you give an Xbox to a child,
I should know this,
it's hard to take it away.
Right.
But if they never had it in the first place.
Right.
And so we're constantly telling people by,
um,
not the values on the company wall,
but how we act as to what's acceptable here and what do we do when people have a bad day,
(32:34):
make big mistakes or act out.
We need to have real ways to deal with,
have real conversations,
talk to people just,
hey,
we want to get you back on board.
This is what's going on.
Tell me,
you know,
tell me what's happening and give them the tools they need for them to kind of rehab and make amends and move forward or if they don't want to do that,
then we part ways sooner rather than later,
(32:56):
right?
And if you're implementing something like that,
then that helps inform your hiring decisions too,
right?
Kind of like looking out for that,
you know,
so maybe you had a bad actor,
you implement this,
that person leaves and now you're looking for the replacement.
Well,
you're much less likely to get somebody in there who's just gonna do the same thing because you're kind of molding this vision of,
(33:21):
of,
you know,
what you want.
Yeah.
You know,
those relations to be so.
Right.
And I think that having sort of this baseline civility doesn't mean that everybody,
you know,
it's still,
I think you can have the,
the wonder of diversity and all different kinds of personalities and we,
you know,
(33:41):
we just do have these different kinds of personalities and that's wonderful.
And yet you can still,
you know,
demand a basic kind of respect for your neighbor,
your colleague while allowing a wide variety of legitimate different ways to be in the office and get stuff done.
Because I think sometimes people hear that like,
oh you want to make everybody the same,
(34:02):
you want everyone to fit into this corporate culture and there is something to culture in an organization.
But this is just more just like baseline,
you know,
no yelling,
no screaming,
no degrading,
you know,
basic decency.
Yeah.
And I have a high tolerance for those things.
I think in this particular case,
it was like the lack of respect like,
(34:23):
you know,
and then we had this whole team doing all this work for this guy and it was just like,
you would just,
you do one little thing wrong and you dismiss it like you,
you know,
anyway,
but you know,
so it takes a lot of forms,
I guess,
you know,
because you mentioned like the yelling and you know,
that type of stuff that's very obvious,
like bad behavior to be so much more subtle sometimes.
(34:46):
And for me personally,
like,
I don't really care if someone yelling because I'm just like,
what you know,
that to me is just like ridiculous behavior.
But if you know,
again,
it's like,
I'm doing all this work and,
and it's being treated as if it didn't exist or it was worthless or whatever.
It's,
yeah,
that,
that hurts me a lot more.
(35:06):
So,
yeah,
in our organizations we,
so we want to be seen and noticed and appreciated appropriately.
But being dismissed and minimized is a sure way for people to start thinking that this is not the place for them.
Right.
If this is what's going to be tolerated,
we're not gonna see people then,
(35:27):
yeah,
you're right.
It is easier to see the yelling and say that's bad.
But the other,
the other adults like how we,
how adults ought to see and treat one another,
we,
we notice people's work,
we don't minimize them.
So Brandon,
can you tell us about the best work experience you had with a boss or a colleague?
(35:49):
And what was so good about it for you?
Yeah.
So I,
I mean,
II I can speak to without going into too much specifics.
I mean,
my,
my experience with bosses in general and I've had,
you know,
definitely had experiences I would consider on both sides of the,
the positive and negative spectrum there.
(36:11):
But,
you know,
I think the most positive experiences I've had are when you feel empowered by your boss,
you know,
not so much like do these exact 10 things and then you will get the job done exactly how you want it versus like,
you know,
kind of putting you in an environment,
(36:31):
giving you the tools that you need,
you know,
and kind of letting you do it yourself.
At least for me that's a big part of it because I don't,
I having that kind of like,
uh,
you know,
it's almost a creativity to kind of figure out the solution yourself.
Um,
and it really gives you a sense of ownership that,
like,
oh,
I,
I did this,
I figured it out.
(36:52):
And so when I've been in those situations,
like that's,
that definitely creates like,
uh the most positive work environment and,
and then I've had times in those situations where it's like,
you know,
I have a question about something and,
and I go and ask like,
OK,
how do you want me to do this and,
and you know,
and,
and getting the answer of like,
figure it out,
(37:13):
you know,
which so,
and then initially,
like,
I just just tell me,
you know,
I just,
you know,
but then it's like,
you know,
it turns into this positive of like,
you know,
you have growth as you figured it out,
you can get in these situations in a job where it's like,
it's so can be so mundane sometimes and,
you know,
(37:34):
you can feel really stagnant.
And so I just think having an environment where the person in charge has created that kind of place where people can have room to grow and,
and figure things out on their own.
And within reason,
of course,
I mean,
there needs to be direction and structure as Well,
but because on the other side of the coin,
(37:54):
for me,
the more negative experiences has been kind of the opposite of,
I had one boss in particular that was like,
just it really,
like whenever something it got to a point where it was important he just took over,
you know,
instead of,
and I was like,
why am I even here?
You know,
like if you're just gonna do it then the things that matter,
(38:17):
you don't need me for the rest of it.
Like,
so,
you know,
so,
you know,
I guess kind of cliche the micro manager,
you know,
I think that's uh but it,
it does create an environment that,
you know,
from,
from my perspective is,
is not a,
you know,
it is not a healthy one.
You bring up a good point about this idea of being stagnant and when you're in a job or in a place for a long time,
(38:41):
it can become very rote and you're good at doing the thing and,
but it gets boring and we,
we want to engage our minds and we want to continually contribute instead of just feel like we are cognitive machine,
you know,
we're just doing the thing we've always done.
And so when it sounds like you were saying that when bosses trust and,
(39:06):
and trust their employees and make that environment so that they are empowered to be creative when it matters,
as you said,
not just these little things like,
you know,
plan the birthday party,
who cares?
Plan the Christmas party.
I'm doing it because the donors are showing up.
Right.
But really,
really being partners,
(39:26):
not just in name only.
So being trusted that you can do it.
So it sounds like there's,
I mean,
there is a sweet spot of you don't want to micromanage and you don't want to,
you know,
just be completely absent.
I don't know if you've ever had an absent boss.
I have,
you know,
where it's like,
where are they?
I,
I really don't know what you want and you just want it done,
(39:49):
but I don't know what done looks like.
I don't know the resources,
I don't know your vision at all or the organization's vision.
So,
what have you seen works for you,
especially as you are in a remote environment where those conditions where you're able to be creative and trusted but not micromanaged or just left out in the way.
(40:11):
And what are some,
like,
real practical things that you can that you see that have been implemented that works to sort of create that environment?
Yeah,
I mean,
that's a good question.
I think in my current situation there's,
yeah,
a lot,
there is a lot of trust.
I mean,
that's certainly a good,
good word to use.
Um,
and that obviously goes both ways,
right.
That's,
(40:31):
it's not just you a directional,
like the manager needs to trust the employee and the employee needs to trust the manager.
You know,
one thing we do is like,
we have a,
we have like our whole group has a,
a daily meeting.
Um and it's kind of framed like our boss is there,
(40:51):
right?
The guy in charge of the group,
but it's also like kind of say like,
ok,
what happened yesterday?
What do we plan to do today?
And are there any obstacles in our way of getting what we need to get done today?
You know,
that we need help with?
And it is partly an update meeting for the boss,
but there's also kind of a peer dynamic there where one it's a chance for collaborations like,
(41:18):
hey,
I'm having this problem and this other guy is like,
oh,
I,
I just worked on that last week.
Let's talk after the meeting,
we can figure that out.
So those kind of things just naturally come out of that.
But also for me,
II,
I feel like there's like a,
a peer accountability that comes with that too,
that you're talking with your peers about the stuff that you're working on and so the boss could not be there and the meeting should still be the same because we're accountable to each other.
(41:48):
We're all,
you know,
we might be working on different projects.
But,
you know,
at the same time,
we're on the same team,
we're working towards the same larger goals.
And,
you know,
it's important to,
to show to your coworkers that you are engaged and,
and,
you know,
I just,
I think,
helps everyone feel better about what they're doing when they hear all this stuff that's going on.
(42:10):
You know,
even if some or a lot of it they're not directly involved with.
So,
yeah,
I,
I don't think that's a,
I don't know,
I haven't really,
I don't know that that's the thing may,
that might just be a personal thing for me.
But I,
I,
I kind of like it,
you know,
from that standpoint too of it just,
it's not being just an update for the boss meeting.
(42:32):
It's a,
you know,
again,
a accountable being accountable to your peers.
I love that so much for so many reasons.
It,
it just sounds like when I talk to people,
one problem is lack of communication,
lack of transparency.
We don't know what's really going on,
we know what we're working on and then,
you know,
you know,
people always wonder,
you know,
like,
(42:52):
what isn't,
what are these other people doing?
I'm spending all this time doing this.
I don't really see what they're doing,
but the continual update shows what others are doing how it fits with you and they see what you're doing.
And I love that,
that,
that peer,
as you said,
peer accountability and it really helps with that buy in like this is our team,
(43:13):
this is our group.
I'm not,
I'm not just lone little person working for the boss.
But I imagine it,
it,
I mean,
it does help to create that trust,
which trust is all important if you're going to have a healthy work environment,
if you don't trust people,
I mean,
that's,
that's gonna be the base problem we got to work on.
Why are you not trusting people?
What's breaking down,
(43:34):
what's going on?
So,
how,
how long are these meetings?
I think they're supposed to be 15 minutes because it's,
I mean,
obviously depends on the size of your group.
I mean,
I,
I think,
you know,
everyone's probably keeping their update to a minute or less is the idea.
Sometimes things come up,
we get off on a little tangent.
But yeah,
(43:54):
ours are usually half hour.
Although I think because we've been remote,
although some of the people are going back into the office now,
but we're still all primarily remote.
We do kind of,
I would say use the other 15 minutes as kind of our social,
like,
you know,
a little bit of social time,
like water cooler times that we can't have,
we're not in the office together.
(44:15):
So,
yeah,
I mean,
it's meant to be very brief because it's not supposed to like,
drag on and,
and take up a big chunk of your day because then it starts getting into,
you know,
that just kind of a waste,
wasting time a little bit.
But I think,
yeah,
I mean,
it's like there's people in this meeting that I have,
I see them every day and I,
I've not worked directly with them maybe in years.
(44:37):
You know,
and I,
if I didn't have this meeting I'd be like,
is that person even still at the company?
Like,
I,
you know,
and so,
like you said,
it's just so many,
like,
random times something has come up and it's like,
oh,
that person is working on this because I,
I know that and,
and it's useful information.
Uh So,
yeah,
I think it,
I don't,
(44:58):
I don't think our group would function the same at all if we didn't,
didn't have that take the time to do that every day.
It sounds like really such an excellent use of time.
A lot of people talk about how meetings are terrible and they're a horrible waste of time.
And of course many meetings are,
if they're not run efficiently,
if,
if they're not,
(45:19):
you know,
run appropriately for the kind of team and the kind of work that people are doing then it's,
they're awful to be subjected to.
But I've also worked in places where there are no meetings and I don't know,
I've worked in both environments where there are too many meetings and,
I mean,
zero meetings and I almost think I would take the too many meetings because at least I knew what was going on.
(45:42):
At least I had other people I could talk to and see what was happening instead of being completely in the dark.
Yeah,
I have my own personal rule of like,
when I'm creating a meeting.
So it's my meeting and I'm running it and I'm asking all these people to spend their time,
you know,
for me it's like 30 minutes is my default.
(46:03):
And if that's not enough time there's gonna be a really good reason for it to be longer,
you know.
But let's get what we can done,
get done in 30 minutes and then let everyone go and then maybe we need another meeting later because,
you know,
but I just,
I know for me personally,
my focus starts to wander in meetings after that amount of time.
And I just feel like I wanna be respectful of other people's time because,
(46:27):
you know,
they've got other stuff we need to do.
And again,
like I said,
you get,
you know,
you stay focused,
you get what you can done in that time frame and then if you need more,
you,
you schedule another meeting for 30 minutes that it,
you know,
the next time.
So,
and as you said,
in the,
in the group meeting,
if you need to talk to somebody else,
then you,
(46:48):
you know,
schedule your own,
you know,
meeting with that person.
So making everybody subjected to the specific thing that you two were talking about.
And so that's another way to connect the people and yet be respectful of the group's time that that's really great.
So Brandon,
I'd like to end with this question when you think into the future of work,
what do you think needs to happen?
(47:09):
So that not only are all workers treated with dignity and respect,
but people are encouraged to flourish.
Uh So just a simple question to finish.
Yeah,
just,
you know,
easy,
easy,
busy.
Yeah,
I mean,
I think,
I think we've touched on a lot of it is that,
you know,
really it does come down to relationships and understanding,
(47:33):
you know,
that that's what it's about,
uh,
in the work environment and creating that environment where people can,
can work together and respect each other and foster those relationships.
And really,
it's something I've in the last five years with a lot has happened and COVID and just kind of even in life in general,
(47:55):
kind of coming to that realization that it's like relationships are so important to everything that we do and I don't think the workplace is any different,
you know,
get locked into this,
like,
focus on being productive.
Oh,
like this is a job.
So productivity is all that matters.
And I don't think that creates a healthy environment for anybody,
(48:18):
for most people.
At least.
I,
so,
yeah,
I think,
and then,
you know,
strategies for that,
I mean,
you probably could have a million different things but I think maintaining that focus on relationships and,
I mean,
there's so many different relationships in a,
in a workplace Right.
I mean,
you've got manager to employee,
(48:38):
you know,
you've got clients and vendors,
you've got peers,
you know.
So I,
I think,
you know,
having that focus and understanding that those relationships are,
are the key and,
and that makes your workers happier and you're happier,
workers will be your productive workers and then your productive workers make the company successful.
(48:59):
So you don't have to start with productivity.
You start with creating this positive environment for your employees and then you have good employees and then you have a good company.
So well said,
I mean,
a excellent,
I absolutely agree.
You want productivity.
You want engagement,
work on your relationships.
Absolutely.
(49:19):
Well,
Brandon,
thank you so much for your time.
It's been a delight to talk with you.
I get to talk to you about all different kinds of family things,
but it's fun to talk about your work experience and insights.
Yeah,
this has been great.
Thanks for having me on.
Yeah.
All right.
Well,
take care.
All right.
You too.
Thank you Brandon for being on Conflict Managed.
I've been wanting to talk to you on this podcast for quite some time and what a joy it is to find out more about your work experience.
(49:46):
And I just could not agree more in order to have healthy work environments,
we need to work on our relationships.
We'll come back next Tuesday.
We have new podcasts every Tuesday.
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party.
Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
Merry Brown.
You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com.
(50:10):
Check out my new book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (50:11):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It looks at 80 things of what NOT to do at work and starts a conversation about what to do instead in order to have those healthy work environments.
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it. Until next time.
(50:33):
Take care.
So,
so.
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