January 16, 2024 • 55 mins
🎙️ Welcome to another episode of Conflict Managed. I'm excited to host Kimberly Best who is a RN, Tennessee Rule 31 Listed Civil Mediator and Tennessee Rule 31 Trained Family Mediator, FINRA Arbitrator, and owner of Best Conflict Solutions, LLC.
Join us as we discuss:
😊 Humanizing others: Recognize the humanity in everyone during conflicts.
🚫 Refrain from minimizing people's conflict: Respect the significance of others' struggles.
🌟 Quality of life: Embrace conflicts as opportunities for growth and change.
🌈 A case for hope: Altering one part of a system creates a ripple effect, offering endless possibilities.
🔄 Mediation: Understand how mediation can help transform conflicts and systems.
Kimberly Best’s practice focuses on Family Mediation, Health, and Elder Care Mediation, Civil and Business Mediation, and personal and organizational Conflict Coaching and Conflict Consulting. She is currently serving her second term on the board of the Tennessee Association of Professional Mediators. Kim is also a volunteer mediator with the Los Angeles City Attorney’s Office, Dispute Resolution Program and Community/Police Unification Program and a practicing facilitator for challenging business and social conversations.
In addition to nursing school, Kim attended graduate school at the University of North Carolina Charlotte in Clinical/Community Psychology. She obtained a master’s degree in Conflict Management from Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee, a certificate in Conflict Management Consulting from Pepperdine University and a certificate in Leveraging the Power of Emotions as You Negotiate from Harvard Law School. Kim also trained in Transformative Mediation at Hofstra University, Healthcare Mediation at the University of South Florida, and Restorative Practices at the International Institute of Restorative Practices.
She is a working member of the Association of Conflict Resolution Elder Mediation Professional Development Group as well as a working member of Mediators Beyond Borders, International, and a member of the American Bar Association Dispute Resolution membership committee. Kim is passionate about helping others resolve conflicts in a productive, non-litigious way using mediation, facilitation and collaborative problem solving in order to find optimal solutions for all parties. She is the author of “How to Live Forever, A Guide to Writing the Final Chapter of Your Life Story" and is a speaker and trainer on the topics of conflict management, dispute resolution processes, life transitions, and how to make difficult decisions - including end of life issues.
Conflict Managed is hosted by Merry Brown and produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services (3pconflictrestoration.com).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right,
this is all right.
I got it under wraps now.
No.
Get a sun uptight asking questions.
(00:25):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Kimberly.
Best.
Kimberly is a Tennessee rule 31 listed civil and trained family mediator,
Finra Arbitrator and owner of Best Conflict Solutions.
LLC Kim's practice focuses on family mediation,
health,
and elder care,
mediation,
civil and business mediation,
(00:46):
and personal and organizational conflict coaching and conflict consulting.
She is currently serving her second term on the board of the Tennessee Association of Professional Mediators.
Kim is also a volunteer mediator with the Los Angeles City Attorney's Office,
Dispute resolution Program and Community Police Unification Program and a practicing facilitator for challenging businesses and social conversations.
(01:07):
In addition to nursing school,
Kim attended graduate school at the University of North Carolina Charlotte and Clinical Community Psychology.
She obtained a master's degree in conflict management from Lipscomb University in Nashville,
Tennessee.
A certificate in conflict management consulting from Pepperdine University and a certificate in managing the power of emotions as you negotiate from Harvard law School.
Kim also trained in transformative mediation at Hos University health care Mediation at the University of South Florida and Restorative Practices at the International Institute of Restorative Practices.
(01:37):
Kim is a working member of the Association of Conflict Resolution Elder Mediation Professional Development Group,
as well as working member of Mediators beyond Borders International and a member of the American Bar Association dispute resolution membership committee.
Kim is passionate about helping others resolve conflicts in a productive non litigious way using mediation,
facilitation,
(01:58):
and collaborative problem solving.
In order to find optimal solutions for all parties.
She is the author of How To Live Forever,
a guide to writing the final chapter of your life story and as a speaker and trainer on the topics of conflict management,
dispute resolution processes,
life transitions and how to make difficult decisions including end of life issues.
Good morning Kim and welcome to conflict managed.
(02:20):
Really happy to be here,
Mary.
Thank you.
So pleased to be with you and talking with the mediator.
We're gonna have a great conversation.
Excellent.
I'm looking forward to it.
So Kim,
I want to know about you.
And what is the first job you ever had?
The very first job I ever had if it goes past cleaning my grandmother's home when I was uh early teenager,
(02:44):
uh would be working in a nursing home as the activities director and I did that uh from about 1516 years old through high school.
What was that experience like?
Well,
I remember being completely befuddled uh to a large degree.
(03:04):
Um And also maybe a bit uh horrified.
Uh and it was gratifying at the same time.
So,
a long time ago,
we're talking back in the mid seventies,
um,
a rural nursing home,
seeing what people go through and,
you know,
maybe losing their family,
not having people around the con the physical condition we might go through as we're aging.
(03:29):
I it's,
it's hard to bear witness to.
Uh,
the rewarding part was actually being able to have some activities.
We watched movies,
played a lot of bingo.
Um Now that you've triggered this memory,
you know,
giving out little milky way,
candy things to people who won bingo.
But,
you know,
I had such an older population,
it was really a little bit hard to engage.
(03:51):
So I think I probably left that with a little bit of understanding of the medical field a little bit and um a bit of an understanding of,
of aging and aging alone.
When I was in um college,
we had to do a lot of community service.
And uh I ended up spending a lot of time in a nursing home and I had some similar experiences of doing activities with them and just realizing how disconnected I am from where I was from the aging population and,
(04:22):
and what our culture does,
how we separate people out at different stages in their life.
And I remember one sweet woman commenting about my teeth and Oh,
what lovely teeth you have and thinking,
you know,
what,
what my concerns were,
what I thought were important and what her concerns were just was just very formative of thinking,
(04:45):
you know,
when you're a teenager,
you think so much about yourself,
right?
And uh and the immediate and you think you will always be as you are,
but having those experiences uh really was impactful for me.
So,
what was your management like?
Were you,
were you given a lot of instruction or were you sort of let us to do what you wanted?
No,
I was um let I,
(05:07):
I wish I would have had more guidance.
I really do.
It was just kind of here you go,
start doing it.
But I did have nursing supervisor was giving an orientation and she said uh to,
to me and some nursing assistants who were also joining every person here is someone's mother or father,
(05:28):
brother,
sister,
child.
And um you know,
that was a long time ago and that never left me that she was humanizing an institution people in an institution,
which is what we're doing when,
you know,
we put people in nursing homes.
So uh I never forgot that that was,
(05:48):
that was probably one of the most impactful things that any manager has ever said to me.
And how interesting that you are in uh mediation and alternative dispute resolution because that's one of the first things that we have to do when we deescalated people is help them de escalate their other that they've done of the other to re humanize the other party because you can't really solve a problem with a monster.
(06:13):
Right?
You got,
you're exactly right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or it William Yuri says,
separate the people from the problem.
So the,
the,
um,
the person becomes the problem.
You know,
my coworker is the problem and you can't solve for people.
Right?
But if you can name what the actual problem is,
(06:33):
the fact that we can't talk together,
the fact that we can't,
you know,
that she's always late or that he's bossy.
Those are the problems and you can solve for those.
Yeah.
But,
but the aversion to demonizing an entire person is uh is a really big part of my makeup.
So where did you go from the nursing home?
(06:54):
What next nursing school was next?
I became a registered nurse and uh I worked uh a year in oncology because you have to do floor nursing.
And then I went to surgical intensive care,
uh went to work in trauma at the university hospital.
Basically worked in every type of intensive care unit.
(07:18):
There is from transplant to burns to whatever you get pulled to and ultimately worked in the emergency department.
And why?
Nursing,
you know,
that's a great question.
I read uh Sue Barton student nurse.
Like there's a Sue Barton Nursing series growing up and there's a Sherry Ames Nursing series growing up.
And honestly,
if I had thought that I had other choices,
(07:40):
I think I would have liked to have gone to medical school.
There was a reason that maybe wouldn't have done that.
The fact that part of their training involves some,
some very difficult things.
But I think I'm just kind of a caregiver.
I just have a heart of a caregiver.
And my,
my mother strongly encouraged the nursing end too.
So when,
when I got to be in high school,
(08:01):
there were no other options really presented to me as options.
So,
um it,
it worked.
I mean,
it was a,
it was a perfect fit for me.
You know,
that's so interesting when we think about the world of work and,
and the options that we present young people,
they're actually fairly narrow and in some court,
sometimes they're sex,
(08:22):
right?
You know,
if you are a male,
you're more likely to go into this kind of work.
And if you're a female,
these are the sorts of um options.
It's,
it's changing.
But I still think those dynamics are there.
And yet when you look at the actual world of work and the vast variety,
I think we need to do a better job of articulating so many different options that people actually have.
(08:46):
It still boggles my mind how many different kinds of occupations or jobs that,
that,
that are available.
Because really,
you know,
teacher nurse,
I mean,
there just wasn't very many talked about.
So,
I,
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I think if there was ever a list it would just be endless of what people actually do for a living.
(09:07):
Yeah.
That,
I,
I bet there is something like that on the internet but what a fun menu to show somebody,
you know,
hundreds,
a whole book.
Just hundreds of pages of,
you know,
like circle what you might be interested in and then investigate when I think about nursing,
uh the difficult work,
um especially,
you know,
dealing with trauma and you're dealing with people on their worst days constantly.
(09:28):
And so I imagine,
of course,
there's a lot of stress and then the shortages and the long hours and resource issues and given all of that,
what's the best experience you had um when you were a nurse with,
um either an organization or a colleague and,
and what was it?
That was so good about it for you.
You know,
I think,
um there's so many like,
(09:51):
uh there's so many pictures in my head because I did it for so many years.
Um I think one moment was working in the emergency department and realizing that in a moment you can actually,
those are life and death moments,
right?
And sometimes sometimes life wins and it's easy.
So we had a football coach who would come in who was deathly allergic to bees and every football season will get stung.
(10:18):
IB come in almost dead.
And then it's just a series of IV medications that you do and all of a sudden,
you know,
a couple of hours later he walks out so grateful to be alive.
So that,
that's wonderful to have those kind of easy wins.
I think on the less pretty part,
one thing that stands out,
of course,
is my coworkers.
(10:38):
Uh,
I'm still friends with some of them and the relationship,
the,
the collaboration that's required in the medical field,
the having each other's back one time,
a manager completely having my back when um II I went to the head of the hospital about a patient issue.
(11:00):
I bypassed the whole food chain because I knew I would get nose along the way.
And what I was doing for one patient was very important and I needed the hospital's cooper operation.
So of course,
the chain did not appreciate that very much.
And the nursing supervisor wanted to fire me.
And uh and my,
my manager said uh to her,
(11:21):
you know,
Kim just has a really big heart.
So she walked by me one day and she said you cost the hospital X amount of money and uh I didn't care because I still felt that it was the right thing to do and that particular amount of money was not gonna break the hospital.
So,
but the fact that that manager understood me,
(11:44):
saw me and stood up for me is again something I'll never forget.
That's an amazing feeling when,
when you,
you feel seen,
especially when it could cost somebody something.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
Priceless.
So,
a lot of times when people look at disputes from the outside,
(12:05):
a lot of times work disputes can feel or seem petty.
Right.
They're squabbling over whatever it may be.
And of course,
sometimes the disputes we come across are,
are pretty massive,
you know,
when it comes to,
you know,
who's gonna do what with the Children or whatever it may be that those are pretty big decisions but going from life or death in the,
(12:26):
in the,
er,
or the,
the medicine that you practiced to seemingly these very small disputes,
how do you,
how do you refrain from minimizing or trivializing the people that you come in contact with when it's not life or death?
So,
I have never thought of someone's conflict.
(12:47):
This small,
never ever has that even occurred to me.
I think,
uh,
when I use the phrase stepping on each other's toes,
um,
when we step on each other's toes,
it,
well,
I don't judge whether it's small or not.
It,
it touches something inside of us that never feels small.
You know what I'm saying?
(13:07):
So,
I don't,
I think of conflict at every level as,
uh,
still emergency work.
But now emergency work for the spirit for the soul,
for,
for a quality of life,
you know,
versus physical and,
um,
they're so intertwined Right,
(13:27):
our physical and our emotional mental state.
Um,
and it's so hard to be our best when we are in conflict that I think I,
I still feel like it's kind of a treatment to alleviate that so we can feel better.
So I,
I really feel like it's parallel work in just a different segment of our lives.
(13:53):
Absolutely love that.
Right.
Conflict again.
It's like the grass is greener from the outside.
I might think.
Why does that bother you or that's not a big deal.
Right.
We see lots of people being minimized but when it's you,
when you're feeling the physical pain or when you are feeling those barbs or whatever at work,
it isn't small because it really cuts at who we are as people and our sense in the world and our sense of being loved and cared for and,
(14:22):
and the way that humans are wired,
we just,
we are constantly scanning our environment for all of this,
how everybody is treating us.
And so when things are going wrong,
it can greatly affect us mentally.
And then,
of course,
physically.
So I absolutely agree.
And I think it's really a great reminder to not trivialize others just as we don't want to be tr trivialized.
(14:49):
Yeah,
I think,
um,
you know,
uh,
what hurts us is based partly in self protection,
as you said,
which is,
you know,
we all have a degree of that,
um,
and varying degrees of that to the fact that it's touching on something that hurt us in the past and you may react to something I say that I think is nothing but who am I to say?
(15:12):
It's nothing.
It is clearly something to you.
Right.
So,
um,
you know what,
what we do is get curious about what,
what it is that we did or said,
you know,
why did it have that impact on you?
Um Yeah,
and,
and where's another route we can take to the outcome we're trying to get,
(15:33):
that doesn't do that.
Now,
I don't think we should avoid stepping on each other's toes because I think there's so much growth and learning when we do that.
I think it's just going to happen,
like conflict is just going to happen.
And I know we probably share very much,
um most people thinking that if you're having conflict,
somebody is doing something wrong and what we share is that it's an opportunity for growth.
(15:59):
It's just a sign that um something needs to change and that change can always be for the better if we have the tools and skills to move it in that direction.
Absolutely right.
Conflict as opportunity.
It may not feel like that at the time,
but that's,
that's the way growth happens.
(16:19):
And in fact,
we might say that if there is no conflict,
that's a bad sign,
it's a sign that people aren't engaged because why would we think especially at work that we're gonna all have the same idea and the same way that we want to move forward with whatever it is that we're working on that,
that's not good.
(16:39):
That does not going to lead to innovation,
healthy work environment.
It means that usually people have been silenced.
And I think there's,
you know,
there's seasons of peace,
you know,
that things get broken and you find ways to fix them and then it's good.
I always say things work until they don't.
And when we hit the point where they don't work.
(17:02):
A lot of times people are saying,
well,
that's a failure or there's fault or,
you know,
blame.
And I think that's,
it's normal to hit a point where things no longer work and it's time to renegotiate and find a new thing that does work.
So even in my work in mediation,
if I'm doing an agreement or my,
(17:22):
I do similar work is you and organizations.
It's like here's the agreement,
here's what you want to do moving forward.
But let me just tell you,
this is not a permanent thing.
This will work until it stops working because life's changing all the time and we're changing all the time and situations are changing all the time.
So being able to learn,
you know,
new skills and uh change with the things that change is very healthy,
(17:49):
change can be so difficult.
And yet I think if we embrace it,
that change is the nature of existence,
we change,
we grow older.
Um If we have families,
they change and that's good,
bad.
It is just what it is and we need to accept it.
And so organizations change and colleagues come and go and we come and go and that is natural.
(18:14):
And so a lot of times people think,
oh I've gotten through this conflict,
I'm done with conflict.
It's like no,
you did it through this and prepare for the next one so that you can act in accordance with your values instead of reacting as if,
as if something has really gone wrong.
And it means of course,
sometimes things really do break terribly that,
you know,
(18:34):
just like in our life,
people get in car accidents,
that's a tragedy.
And sometimes tragedies are really difficult.
Things happen at work or a pandemic hits us.
And so adapting and setting those expectations that there is going to be difficulty and we are going to deal with it.
And in the meantime,
getting those skills to deal with it,
(18:56):
I think,
I think you're right.
Change is change is hard.
I mean,
it's so nice.
I love when my life is in a comfort zone for a while.
You know,
it's so rare that it's like smooth sailing and then change is hard.
I mean,
we just know that it is,
we have to both accept that there will always be change.
(19:19):
And I think we have to allow really to grieve the things that have changed that are no longer the way they are.
We just can't stay stuck in that or go back to that.
I mean,
the language that happens a lot is I want to go back.
Well,
really,
I think most people want to move forward to a better next because life is a progression and,
(19:45):
um,
our relationships and work and everything is a progression and going back is a recession.
You know,
it is,
it is,
it isn't going to happen because once an event has happened to change things,
there is no going back.
It's now with those facts as well.
So,
um none of that's easy.
(20:06):
I mean,
it,
it takes a,
a conscience conscious effort and um I think like you said,
I mean,
it,
it definitely takes learning skills to do it because most of us just haven't learned how,
you know,
we kind of grow up with this.
Everything should be like shoulds you probably talk about should,
you know,
should means it's my value,
(20:27):
but they're really usually not even true because,
you know,
my,
my partner should have done this.
They don't know,
those are your rules.
I mean,
those shoulds are our rules,
right?
And we kind of impose this on other people.
So,
um yeah,
it's uh it's communication.
I really love,
(20:47):
I love the show and I love the progression and when we want things to go back,
I completely understand that.
Usually we think to a pace,
place of safety,
a place of peace and,
and we want peace.
Absolutely.
But I think a part of,
of developing conflict resolution skills is accepting reality.
(21:09):
You don't have to like it.
But when you accept it,
you free yourself to move forward as you said to,
to find the better to get unstuck.
So we accept that this terrible thing has happened or this thing that we don't like or this thing that shouldn't be but was or is.
And so what do we do now?
(21:31):
So conflict resolution is first and foremost,
empowering is taking our power back and saying this is the situation.
What am I going to do to move forward?
Because the forward is always there,
right?
Life is like a river,
it is flowing and we can try to beat our fists and go upstream,
but we're not gonna be able to do it so we can be caught in the tide or we can decide what is in our control to actually control that which is in our minds.
(21:59):
But what,
how we're gonna think and,
and what are we going to do next?
You're a,
a rare conflict manager um that,
that shares like when people ask me what conflict management is about empowerment is my first word as well because you know,
we can,
I think there's a space in between how things were things go sideways.
(22:22):
We have to grieve,
we can stomp our feet.
For a while and then we move on,
but we need that space to decide who we're going to be next.
When,
when we become a victim,
we completely lose our power.
We've given everything to whatever event or person and we might be in that space for a moment.
That's pretty normal too.
(22:43):
But you just don't wanna stay in that space because,
um,
I mean,
it's your life and,
uh,
yeah,
there's,
there's so much more to do moving forward.
Yes.
Yes,
absolutely.
And I do,
I don't wanna highlight that because I think that's important.
I think when we talk about forward looking,
we think about conflict resolution and restoration.
(23:05):
Sometimes people hear,
well,
you just have to ignore the past and get on with it and that's clearly not what we're saying.
We address what has happened.
You've got to address what's happened or it's just that trauma that toxins just keep on coming with us un unless we clear ourselves out of it and deal with our emotional responses and deal with the really difficult things.
(23:26):
I mean,
life throws horrendous things at us,
wonderful things and most of life is the mundane,
the in between and I love the in between,
you know,
I love the hive and,
but we all experience the variety of life and so the humane healthy thing is to really squarely take the necessary time to deal with what has happened so that you can move forward in a fruitful way.
(23:52):
So if anybody says,
oh,
just get on with it and doesn't want to address the harm that has happened or that they have a occur they have caused.
Um,
I would say,
well,
they can do what they want but what are you going to do?
How are you going to deal with it?
And what story are you going to tell yourself now and into the future?
Yeah,
I,
I love that.
(24:13):
And it really,
when I'm hearing you describe that truth,
I'm thinking of the fact that maybe that lends us to remember that other people are going through a lot too.
So,
and we don't know what they're going through.
We know what we're going through,
we know what we're dealing with.
(24:34):
But so is everyone else,
you know,
so that moment when you want to react instead of response.
Um And you wonder why somebody could do something or say something like they did if there's a pause there to remember that everybody's going through stuff too.
(24:57):
Absolutely.
That humanizing right back to the,
the pausing and getting out of ourselves,
you know,
our ourselves.
Yes,
but ourselves and others,
right?
It's not just them,
it's not just us but finding that balance.
So why did you leave nursing?
Did you go leave nursing and go into dispute resolution or,
or what happened there?
(25:18):
Great question.
So um eventually I got kind of burnt out in the trauma and I love people and I love the mind and body.
The whole thing is,
well,
we're fascinating.
I mean,
this whole life thing is just fascinating.
So I went to graduate school in psychology and um realized for me that,
(25:40):
that was uh sorry,
counselors and psychologists.
But for me,
that occupation is like watching paint dry because I have the heart of an ear nurse.
You know,
it's a very slow process.
So I went back into nursing and then my family relocated and I had young twins and um my husband at the time was traveling a lot,
(26:05):
so I stayed home,
homeschooled them and really didn't work outside of the home except for volunteering as in nursing.
Um and particularly in Africa.
So then,
um I went through a really,
really bad divorce and uh you know,
even a good divorce is painful and has a lot of dehumanizing.
(26:30):
And uh I think when,
when you use the divorce word,
the you're hopping on a train and the whole world conspires then to keep you on that train that leads to you have no idea where.
And I have a very,
very wise brother who had heard of something called transformative Mediation out of Hofstra University in New York.
He said he sent me an article and he said,
(26:51):
look,
there's this thing called mediation and people actually work out their problems,
they'd listen to each other and work out their problems without beating each other up.
Now,
back in those days if you typed into your computer mediation,
the computer would say you mean meditation.
And I didn't,
didn't even know what this mediation stuff was.
So I went to Hofstra and that's the home of transformative mediation,
(27:15):
a certain type of mediation.
And I was fascinated.
And uh so then I went to graduate school and conflict management and got my master's in conflict management.
And my hope was,
and I'm still so passionate about this to help people resolve their conflicts in a way that everyone saves space,
(27:36):
that there's not blame,
that we have the tools to mitigate for conflict in every section of our life.
Knowing it's not easy,
but it is possible.
And uh yeah,
so I,
I love what I do and,
and I,
I do want to add,
you know,
it's so not easy.
It's a lot harder if you don't have the tools because like you said,
you,
you,
(27:56):
most people are conflict avoidant,
which builds up a lot of pain,
either between the relationship,
which can become a garbage pile or in ourselves,
which can also feel like a garbage pile.
But I always say that I am really,
really good at conflict management unless it's my own life.
You know,
because conflict,
(28:18):
the nature of being in conflict means that we are in pain.
And I noticed when I first started working that everybody came in the door,
like literally everybody came in the door.
It's like he's a narcissist she's a narcissist and a counselor friend of mine said,
you know what all of us are narcissists when we're in pain because then it's all about us.
(28:42):
So I know that I can't see my best options when I'm in that space of pain.
And that's why I love people like you and I,
because the third party neutral,
who can help us see what we can't see who can help us process without shaming,
without blaming,
(29:03):
without making us weird.
Who understands that all these things we go through are normal,
like they're normal,
but we've never spoken of them before to be able to develop the tool.
Now,
we're talking about how hard it is to be in a relationship with someone or to be working in a certain space or to be ourselves even.
(29:23):
And now we have the tools to work through it.
But it requires sometimes that person who opens up a safe space so that we can see more options than we see when we're in pain.
Wonderful.
Absolutely.
I like,
I like that you have said several times hard and pain because there are some people in our space who like to talk about confident conversations,
(29:51):
courageous conversations.
And I agree and they don't like the word hard because they feel like it's setting people up giving them a false expectation that something is going to be difficult.
And I want to say it is difficult.
I,
I don't want to sugar coat it.
It's hard.
Uh I do want people to be confident and it does take courage.
(30:13):
I always admire people who make it to mediation.
And Kim,
I love talking about conflict and other people's conflict.
And I'm the same when it's mine.
It's like,
what do I do for a living?
I don't,
you know,
and I feel it in my neck and in my body and my,
I just go,
it's like I,
you know,
and then I have to say,
OK,
what would I tell somebody else?
(30:34):
You know,
how to myself?
How do I use my words?
How do I,
how do I?
So unless we're triggered,
you know,
we get triggered too.
That means we're re reacting to something.
I mean,
we're human.
It's going to happen.
The thing that learning conflict skills does is the what next?
Because right now a trigger and a reaction is,
(30:57):
becomes a wall for most people,
a wall.
And I like to say that we turn that wall,
we put a door in the wall because it's not ever how someone stepped on your toes.
We're going to step on each other's toes.
It's the what next?
And it's the what next that we haven't learned and that's where really courage comes in,
you know,
and the what next is usually about speaking your truth and deciding how you all are going to move past that because we will,
(31:26):
we can like,
we can not always,
I mean,
certainly not always,
but most of the time we can,
I love that,
you know,
learning conflict resolution skills.
I do think that it can take away some unnecessary conflict.
Right.
So,
in,
I think the better that we think about our own reactions and in a way,
really embracing living and let living,
(31:46):
but now everybody has to think and believe and act the way that I do so,
really allowing people to be themselves,
but it doesn't take away conflict,
which is not the goal,
wouldn't it even be good?
I love that.
But what's next?
Ok,
this happened,
I feel this way.
I'm in pain.
What am I going to do?
And I love those options back to that personal empowerment.
(32:09):
Ok?
I can do this,
I can do that.
Hopefully I have maybe somebody I can reach out to,
to,
you know,
talk with or there's just a variety of things available once you start looking into and developing your own little,
your own personal toolkit,
what works for you.
And of course,
it's gonna be different in different circumstances,
(32:29):
different stages of your life and so on.
That's exactly right.
Definitely,
definitely under the different circumstances too.
Yeah,
it's never the same.
That,
that's one of the things that,
that helps conflict or be conflict in.
Not a good way is when we,
you know,
we have an interaction with someone in the past and we have a new interaction now and our brains are hardwired to make it like,
(32:53):
oh,
here we go.
Again.
This person is still when it's really just a new situation and needs to be looked at as a new situation.
So we're not trying to deal with it like the old situation.
Yes.
I,
I absolutely agree.
I think conflict resolution at work begins way before there's any conflict.
Right with laying that foundation to build relationships so that when we step on each other's toes,
(33:18):
when there really is friction,
we have some sort of foundation that I think about,
you know,
my kids when they were little and one would just have to walk in the room and the other person would get upset,
you know,
because of,
you know,
those childish,
childish,
you know,
fights that little kids have and uh and the feelings that are associated.
So it's not what just happened,
(33:40):
it's what happened before and before and before and before.
So if we,
if we deal in our workplaces and really think about who am,
who am I showing up every day as a professional?
And how am I treating people as professional and as a human,
right?
Humans first with dignity and respect and establishing those relationships,
then I think being able to not carry uh or see things as slight because maybe if I've developed a relationship,
(34:08):
I might be able to feel more comfortable coming to you and say this is what happened.
Is this what you meant?
Right?
The principle of charity extending that to others.
But we typically only extend that when we feel like we have a reason or the person is gonna be receptive because there's a relationship there.
Uh That's exactly right.
And you can see where these come from.
(34:28):
I mean,
these kind of rules of engagement.
And I,
uh I say to people,
you know,
what happened to you in your family of origin when you were the source of the conflict and how does that impact how you handle conflict today?
It certainly impacts our rules,
(34:49):
our shoulds and shouldn't like that.
We get most of those and those may work for three year olds and four year olds and six year olds,
but they no longer work as adults.
So this sometimes that we learned are very important for families and in the family unit,
but they don't translate well into the outside world,
but we're,
(35:09):
we're still trying to do that and it's not working,
which is a great reason,
you know,
to learn more skills.
Absolutely.
So,
Kim,
when you think about your history of work and the different places that you worked,
you certainly have had conflict.
Like you mentioned a little bit of a conflict that you had or a big conflict when seeking care for somebody who needed it.
(35:30):
So how,
how do you see your own conflict,
ability to deal with conflict in the work environment?
How has that changed over time and maybe a conflict you had when you were a younger,
younger person knowing what,
you know,
now,
how would you approach it now,
or would it be different?
(35:51):
Oh,
you learn a lot as the years go on,
don't you?
Um,
so,
uh,
I think,
uh,
I've always been able to get along with most people and,
you know,
there's always those couple of people that,
that trigger something.
So,
I think that's been helpful.
I,
I haven't not spent much time in a real judgment.
(36:11):
I'm hard on me,
I'm not hard on everybody else.
So I,
I've never expect,
I mean,
I get that people mess up that things go sideways.
I,
I've always been very anti meanness like me,
meanness has always been the kind of thing for me,
but some of the bigger lessons that I've learned was,
(36:31):
um,
you know,
sometimes in,
at work I was the only person that thought something was right.
You know,
and uh I remember like literally standing outside of an,
er,
crying because I was very passionate about the treatment of a certain patient and everybody else thought a different way.
And I'm like,
(36:52):
I must be like the freak here and my secretary who was like a mom came out and she said,
you know,
just because everyone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you're wrong.
That was a pretty powerful moment.
The other lesson was this two big lessons.
Number one,
you know,
how you talk at work with people and you may confide.
(37:14):
And next thing you know,
that person has told somebody else and you feel betrayed.
I learned two things.
Number one,
I'm responsible for what comes out of my mouth and I cannot hand that responsibility to someone else because I can't hold it and ask them to hold it.
So my expectation is if I say something,
even if I would like it to be confidential,
(37:36):
it still stopped here and the responsibility stops here.
Right.
I wanna talk about it because it's too much for me to hold,
but I don't want you to talk about it,
you have to hold it.
So,
just knowing that I'm responsible and being careful to say what may or may not come back to me later,
that was very freeing for me.
(37:56):
The other thing was just because people are friendly doesn't mean they're your friend and,
uh,
my daughter who is an,
er,
nurse now,
um,
discovered that recently,
uh,
having a conflict in her own place.
So,
so,
yeah,
I keep learning a lot and now,
(38:16):
especially in nursing,
there's so much conflict.
Um,
I guess one more thing about conflict that was very impactful and that was our own ownership of how something hits us.
So,
uh,
a patient told me one time she was uh very angry because in the,
er,
sometimes there are people seeking narcotics and we wouldn't give her what she was wanting and she said,
(38:40):
do you know what you are,
you're nothing.
And that hit me so hard because in my head,
the first thing I thought was,
how did she know?
Hm.
You know,
because we're kind of bluffing sometimes.
Right.
And I had a back story with a lot of pain.
Well,
the wake up moment isn't,
(39:00):
that's her fault for saying it,
it is.
What is in me?
That,
that rings true.
And can I become a whole enough person?
That's like somebody can tell me that I'm a green hippopotamus and I'm gonna think,
am I?
No,
that's not who I am.
(39:21):
So sometimes our responses to conflict aren't the other person.
It is something inside of us that we need to grow or grow into.
And I certainly had plenty of that kind of work to do.
So where if I'm morphed into,
I mean,
I'm morphed into doing similar work as you.
(39:41):
I work with organizations in conflict,
love working with healthcare,
uh health.
I mean,
they're my,
they're my people and I think so many people in the workplace are struggling when they don't have to.
And I'm a big believer in quality of life and our work takes up a big space of our life.
So being miserable,
(40:02):
going to work should not be an option.
Yeah.
And if,
if going through a little bit of hardness to make it better means that it alleviates that and you can enjoy going to work.
I'm gonna share real quick,
uh,
11 medical organization I work with,
I,
I still remain their,
(40:22):
you know,
uh on board and conflict person.
So I'm on boarding a new person,
telling them the culture that this workplace wanted to have,
make sure they're on board and seeing how that's going with them and say,
hey,
I'm here if you have any conflict that you can't work through together,
she said if I would have had this service at any place,
I would have worked in my whole life.
(40:43):
I would have never left my job.
Isn't that awesome?
Like it can be better,
it can be better.
Oh,
gosh,
Kim.
I feel like we are long lost sisters.
I absolutely agree.
I mean,
this,
this whole trite meme of,
you know,
oh,
it's Sunday night and I've got to,
you know,
go to work on Monday.
It's so terrible.
(41:03):
Now I realize not everybody has the benefit.
I mean,
we're all at different stages.
We have different kinds of jobs for a variety of reasons.
But just because you were at a job,
let's say a fast food job and you don't want to be there.
It doesn't mean it has to be a bad experience.
Right?
There are all these stories that we tell ourselves and,
but sometimes the culture is toxic and there are bullies and there are all of these really bad things happening.
(41:30):
And I think we have a moral imperative to say no,
everyone should be treated with dignity and respect,
respect.
It doesn't matter what kind of job or where they are in the company.
If they are a part time person or they're the ceo everyone deserves to have a healthy work environment.
And that's our responsibility to bring that about.
And so why organizations,
(41:53):
they're not more ombuds at organizations or access to third party mediators?
It's mind blowing when you look at just the,
the dollar amount,
right?
Society for Human resource management says that in the US,
we spend over $40 billion annually to toxic work environments.
And Gallup says it's closer to a trillion in the world.
(42:14):
Gallup says it's the GDP is like 7 to 9% of the world GDP is spent or lost due to bad management,
bad environments.
So from just a dollars and cents point of view,
it doesn't make any sense to not have healthy work environments,
but more importantly from uh you know,
what is life for?
(42:34):
What is it we want,
we want to have good work environments,
we want to have good relationships,
we want to do work that matters.
We want to feel a sense of belonging and there's no reason why we can't bring that about.
Yeah.
And all of what you said and the fact that we're not as good as compartmentalizing as we think we are.
So if we're struggling at work,
(42:56):
it's probably leaking out at home or in our relationships too.
I mean,
again,
that's normal.
But if you can fix the leak and I wanna say this because I,
I know a lot of people ask me,
well,
what if you can't get the organization on board and it can be really hard for people to wanna look in the mirror and see what's broken.
(43:17):
Um I think that you were working in a system,
there are families in the system and if one piece of that system changes,
the whole system is going to change.
So whatever interaction you have in your group,
we all keep kind of the same rules and rules and the dynamic going and people want to bring that system to the table and the system is like,
(43:43):
no,
you can,
you can do it,
you can get conflict coaching,
figure out how to deal better for you.
And when you stop playing by the rules of the group,
even if they're toxic rules,
it will change.
There's no guarantee.
We don't know how it will change.
But 100% we know that the system will change because one piece of it has changed.
(44:07):
So there's always hope and I love that because some people,
you know,
people are in despair,
right?
And they say nothing will ever change.
That person will never change,
the organization will never change.
And I wanna say maybe,
but you can,
and when you,
it's amazing when you,
when you change all these possibilities open up and you might have told yourself,
(44:30):
I can't go anyplace else for these particular reasons.
And,
you know,
of course,
maybe that is true.
We want to be,
you know,
there's all different kinds of situations,
but usually there are other options and when we start taking ownership and,
and really saying,
ok,
this is my life.
What is it that I want?
What are my boundaries which are up to me to keep and not somebody else.
(44:51):
What am I going to do next?
And when you start looking at the world from that lens,
this is my life.
I get to decide it is amazing that I love teaching philosophy.
But I stayed at my job for a couple of years too long because I told myself this story.
I live in this very small town.
What can you do?
What does an out of work philosopher do?
Who's not teaching philosophy?
(45:12):
And so I stayed longer than I really should have because I didn't see.
But once I stepped out all of these opportunities opened because instead of me saying you need to change,
you need to do this for me.
I said,
what am I going to do?
How am I going?
It was a long process and most of us who go through change,
it takes,
takes a time.
But I say the heart of conflict is so much better and life giving and flourishing than staying with the known of the,
(45:42):
of the conflict of the destructive conflict.
A philosopher told me once,
take a step and the ground will appear.
If you take a step,
the ground will appear.
And I,
I think that's true.
I mean,
when I went through my divorce,
you know,
I,
I knew everything had to change and I also knew it wouldn't change if I stayed inside my house with the door closed,
(46:05):
opportunity is not going to come knocking at your door no matter what the saying says,
you have to go doing,
do it.
So I gave myself permission to try things and fail.
I gave myself permission to walk a path and if it didn't work out,
because one of my struggles was always,
once I started something,
(46:25):
I was raised to finish it.
And even if I knew it was not the best thing for me or my world,
I stuck with it too long.
So I said this time,
I'm going to take opportunities when I see it.
I'm going to try it if I don't like it or it doesn't feel right.
I'm going to let it go,
but I'm going to keep moving forward.
(46:47):
And um you know,
I can't say that that's easy,
but I think it's way easier than the alternative,
which is being stuck because there's a lot of pain in being stuck.
Absolutely.
So,
Kim,
I know we're sort of drawing to the end of our time.
But I have two last things I want to talk to you about.
One I would like to hear from you an ode to mediation.
(47:11):
Why should people try mediation if they need it?
A lot of people are afraid,
they are afraid,
especially in a work environment that it's just a long arm of,
you know,
policy or,
um,
that it's really in disguise or that it's gonna be punitive or it's gonna make things worse.
Why should people open themselves to going to a third party mediator?
(47:34):
Yeah,
I kind of feel like we'll have to,
uh,
sort of recap everything we've talked about because in a lot of ways,
I think we covered that problems can be solved.
There are solutions.
Uh,
it might be trial and error but,
uh,
the one thing or a couple of things about media is it's absolutely not about blame.
Uh,
we're supposed to be impartial or unbiased.
(47:56):
I had a great,
um,
teacher who kind of wrote the book on mediation and he describes himself as omni partial,
which is a word that is not in the dictionary,
but it means he's for both sides.
And I find that I always am,
I want you to have the best outcome and I want you to have the best outcome.
So it's an opportunity to hear what's really going on from the other side.
(48:22):
It's an opportunity to be heard.
And I want to say about that hearing part because in the absence of knowing we make up a story and most of the time our story is not really what's going on.
And all we have to do is ask and I ask like this,
the story I'm telling myself is that you came late just to piss me off.
(48:44):
You know,
and it's like,
no,
my kid had the flu.
I mean,
you know,
it's,
it's always makes sense when we take the time to ask.
So mediation gives an opportunity to understand and then those people get to decide the what next they get to decide.
And it's not an either or this is what I love about mediation.
(49:05):
When most people come in conflict,
they have two choices your way or your way.
And as mediators,
our job is to draw a line between the two of them and see what else is there,
you know,
because there's always something there.
So we start exploring what other options there are.
And even in my head just describing that I have the sense of moving forward,
(49:27):
you know,
and then giving permission for let's try it.
And if it doesn't work,
we'll renegotiate.
Um So II,
I see people come out of this with whatever degree of agreement works for them.
But definitely I've never seen anyone come out of the process and say,
I wish I hadn't done that.
(49:48):
I have never seen that to some degree and part of that's up to the people coming in,
they're in a better place always when they move forward,
whether that means they have more understanding of themselves or,
and the other person or it means that they actually came to an agreement on how they're going to do something and reconcile that relationship.
(50:09):
And I do some tough mediations.
I do the police community mediations for the Los Angeles City Attorney's office.
This works.
The process works.
So,
um it doesn't hurt to try.
I wish more people knew about mediation.
I wish they knew it was an option.
And a beautiful place for an option is pre litigation.
(50:29):
Like a lot of times in litigation,
uh,
you have to go to mediation somewhere on the line.
But by then,
you know,
you have attorneys who are escalating the conflict between the people because that's their job and you've lost a lot of money.
When at the end of the day,
if you sat down and had a conversation,
it's not an hour conversation.
(50:51):
I mean,
I talked to this party and let them vent everything and that everything is safe and confidential.
And then this party does the same and then we decide in these separate conversations what each person needs in that moment and then we come together and work through it and the process just works.
(51:12):
Yeah,
it is amazing.
I was talking to an hr manager who I'd done a mediation with,
I was doing something else and I pass mediation and she said it was a third,
three party,
three parties in this mediation.
And she said two of them had spoken to her and said that it was a transformative experience and that's what mediation is that door.
You talked about it.
(51:33):
If you open yourself up to,
to being heard,
I mean,
when I go to,
when I'm with other mediators or go to a mediator conference or an ombuds conference,
there's nothing like being around those people who are trained to listen,
who love people and who really wanna listen to others.
And so go to really be listened to and then you'll find you actually get the gift of being able to listen of somebody helping you deescalates yourself,
(52:00):
figuring out the forest for the trees.
What is the real issue?
And it's not the person.
What is the,
what is the problem that we can actually make forward motion on?
So wonderful?
Yes,
it's almost a sacred outcome because it is transformative.
But people are exposing like it's amazing to me how honest people are in that place that is safe and then they're being honest with themselves too.
(52:27):
And that's where the transformation is.
Nobody expects what's gonna come out,
you know,
but just having that safe place and on,
it's just spiritual.
It's just incredible when it happens.
So my last question for you is when you look into the future of the world of work,
what do you think needs to happen?
(52:47):
So that not only is everybody treated with dignity and respect at work,
but they're actually encouraged to thrive and flourish.
That's a great question.
I,
I could probably write a book on that.
I,
I think that I think everything begins with who am I?
So my commitment to treat everyone with respect if we all were committed,
(53:12):
not to treat people like we want to be treated,
but to treat people like they want to be treated.
Um And then I would like to see the future of work be that people design their own work culture.
Um A manager,
you know,
the buck has to stop somewhere.
So a manager or whoever that person is,
is listening to each person is seeing each person,
(53:35):
we're seeing one another and decisions are made by consensus or uh collaboration,
maybe not consensus but collaboration on deciding what's best making room for error because to be creative,
some things will work and some things won't and um and making space for that as well.
(53:57):
So I,
I think seeing each other as people treating each other as people is different humans.
And the one I,
the last thing I wanna say that I want folks to take home with them is um a little saying that occurred to me.
I use it a lot just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm against you.
It means I'm me.
(54:18):
I'm just different than you.
So it would be lovely to have a work environment that acknowledged all those things.
Yes,
absolutely.
Well,
Kim,
thank you.
So much for your work and uh for your time today.
I loved it.
Thank you,
Mary.
Take care,
Kim.
What an absolute pleasure to talk with you today.
(54:38):
It's such a treat to talk to somebody who's been in this space for so long.
I appreciate the work that you are doing to help people have better lives and we deal with the pain that we're in.
We're more likely to be able to help the next person,
help ourselves.
We help others.
Conflict managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(55:02):
Merry Brown.
Come back next Tuesday,
we have new episodes every Tuesday.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (55:09):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do and it starts a conversation about what does it mean to be professional and what does a good work culture look like?
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot.
And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
(55:30):
Take care.
All right,
this is all right.
I got it under wraps now.
No.
Get a sun uptight asking questions.
(00:25):
Welcome to Conflict Managed.
I'm your host,
Merry Brown.
This week on Conflict Managed,
we welcome Kimberly.
Best.
Kimberly is a Tennessee rule 31 listed civil and trained family mediator,
Finra Arbitrator and owner of Best Conflict Solutions.
LLC Kim's practice focuses on family mediation,
health,
and elder care,
mediation,
civil and business mediation,
(00:46):
and personal and organizational conflict coaching and conflict consulting.
She is currently serving her second term on the board of the Tennessee Association of Professional Mediators.
Kim is also a volunteer mediator with the Los Angeles City Attorney's Office,
Dispute resolution Program and Community Police Unification Program and a practicing facilitator for challenging businesses and social conversations.
(01:07):
In addition to nursing school,
Kim attended graduate school at the University of North Carolina Charlotte and Clinical Community Psychology.
She obtained a master's degree in conflict management from Lipscomb University in Nashville,
Tennessee.
A certificate in conflict management consulting from Pepperdine University and a certificate in managing the power of emotions as you negotiate from Harvard law School.
Kim also trained in transformative mediation at Hos University health care Mediation at the University of South Florida and Restorative Practices at the International Institute of Restorative Practices.
(01:37):
Kim is a working member of the Association of Conflict Resolution Elder Mediation Professional Development Group,
as well as working member of Mediators beyond Borders International and a member of the American Bar Association dispute resolution membership committee.
Kim is passionate about helping others resolve conflicts in a productive non litigious way using mediation,
facilitation,
(01:58):
and collaborative problem solving.
In order to find optimal solutions for all parties.
She is the author of How To Live Forever,
a guide to writing the final chapter of your life story and as a speaker and trainer on the topics of conflict management,
dispute resolution processes,
life transitions and how to make difficult decisions including end of life issues.
Good morning Kim and welcome to conflict managed.
(02:20):
Really happy to be here,
Mary.
Thank you.
So pleased to be with you and talking with the mediator.
We're gonna have a great conversation.
Excellent.
I'm looking forward to it.
So Kim,
I want to know about you.
And what is the first job you ever had?
The very first job I ever had if it goes past cleaning my grandmother's home when I was uh early teenager,
(02:44):
uh would be working in a nursing home as the activities director and I did that uh from about 1516 years old through high school.
What was that experience like?
Well,
I remember being completely befuddled uh to a large degree.
(03:04):
Um And also maybe a bit uh horrified.
Uh and it was gratifying at the same time.
So,
a long time ago,
we're talking back in the mid seventies,
um,
a rural nursing home,
seeing what people go through and,
you know,
maybe losing their family,
not having people around the con the physical condition we might go through as we're aging.
(03:29):
I it's,
it's hard to bear witness to.
Uh,
the rewarding part was actually being able to have some activities.
We watched movies,
played a lot of bingo.
Um Now that you've triggered this memory,
you know,
giving out little milky way,
candy things to people who won bingo.
But,
you know,
I had such an older population,
it was really a little bit hard to engage.
(03:51):
So I think I probably left that with a little bit of understanding of the medical field a little bit and um a bit of an understanding of,
of aging and aging alone.
When I was in um college,
we had to do a lot of community service.
And uh I ended up spending a lot of time in a nursing home and I had some similar experiences of doing activities with them and just realizing how disconnected I am from where I was from the aging population and,
(04:22):
and what our culture does,
how we separate people out at different stages in their life.
And I remember one sweet woman commenting about my teeth and Oh,
what lovely teeth you have and thinking,
you know,
what,
what my concerns were,
what I thought were important and what her concerns were just was just very formative of thinking,
(04:45):
you know,
when you're a teenager,
you think so much about yourself,
right?
And uh and the immediate and you think you will always be as you are,
but having those experiences uh really was impactful for me.
So,
what was your management like?
Were you,
were you given a lot of instruction or were you sort of let us to do what you wanted?
No,
I was um let I,
(05:07):
I wish I would have had more guidance.
I really do.
It was just kind of here you go,
start doing it.
But I did have nursing supervisor was giving an orientation and she said uh to,
to me and some nursing assistants who were also joining every person here is someone's mother or father,
(05:28):
brother,
sister,
child.
And um you know,
that was a long time ago and that never left me that she was humanizing an institution people in an institution,
which is what we're doing when,
you know,
we put people in nursing homes.
So uh I never forgot that that was,
(05:48):
that was probably one of the most impactful things that any manager has ever said to me.
And how interesting that you are in uh mediation and alternative dispute resolution because that's one of the first things that we have to do when we deescalated people is help them de escalate their other that they've done of the other to re humanize the other party because you can't really solve a problem with a monster.
(06:13):
Right?
You got,
you're exactly right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or it William Yuri says,
separate the people from the problem.
So the,
the,
um,
the person becomes the problem.
You know,
my coworker is the problem and you can't solve for people.
Right?
But if you can name what the actual problem is,
(06:33):
the fact that we can't talk together,
the fact that we can't,
you know,
that she's always late or that he's bossy.
Those are the problems and you can solve for those.
Yeah.
But,
but the aversion to demonizing an entire person is uh is a really big part of my makeup.
So where did you go from the nursing home?
(06:54):
What next nursing school was next?
I became a registered nurse and uh I worked uh a year in oncology because you have to do floor nursing.
And then I went to surgical intensive care,
uh went to work in trauma at the university hospital.
Basically worked in every type of intensive care unit.
(07:18):
There is from transplant to burns to whatever you get pulled to and ultimately worked in the emergency department.
And why?
Nursing,
you know,
that's a great question.
I read uh Sue Barton student nurse.
Like there's a Sue Barton Nursing series growing up and there's a Sherry Ames Nursing series growing up.
And honestly,
if I had thought that I had other choices,
(07:40):
I think I would have liked to have gone to medical school.
There was a reason that maybe wouldn't have done that.
The fact that part of their training involves some,
some very difficult things.
But I think I'm just kind of a caregiver.
I just have a heart of a caregiver.
And my,
my mother strongly encouraged the nursing end too.
So when,
when I got to be in high school,
(08:01):
there were no other options really presented to me as options.
So,
um it,
it worked.
I mean,
it was a,
it was a perfect fit for me.
You know,
that's so interesting when we think about the world of work and,
and the options that we present young people,
they're actually fairly narrow and in some court,
sometimes they're sex,
(08:22):
right?
You know,
if you are a male,
you're more likely to go into this kind of work.
And if you're a female,
these are the sorts of um options.
It's,
it's changing.
But I still think those dynamics are there.
And yet when you look at the actual world of work and the vast variety,
I think we need to do a better job of articulating so many different options that people actually have.
(08:46):
It still boggles my mind how many different kinds of occupations or jobs that,
that,
that are available.
Because really,
you know,
teacher nurse,
I mean,
there just wasn't very many talked about.
So,
I,
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I think if there was ever a list it would just be endless of what people actually do for a living.
(09:07):
Yeah.
That,
I,
I bet there is something like that on the internet but what a fun menu to show somebody,
you know,
hundreds,
a whole book.
Just hundreds of pages of,
you know,
like circle what you might be interested in and then investigate when I think about nursing,
uh the difficult work,
um especially,
you know,
dealing with trauma and you're dealing with people on their worst days constantly.
(09:28):
And so I imagine,
of course,
there's a lot of stress and then the shortages and the long hours and resource issues and given all of that,
what's the best experience you had um when you were a nurse with,
um either an organization or a colleague and,
and what was it?
That was so good about it for you.
You know,
I think,
um there's so many like,
(09:51):
uh there's so many pictures in my head because I did it for so many years.
Um I think one moment was working in the emergency department and realizing that in a moment you can actually,
those are life and death moments,
right?
And sometimes sometimes life wins and it's easy.
So we had a football coach who would come in who was deathly allergic to bees and every football season will get stung.
(10:18):
IB come in almost dead.
And then it's just a series of IV medications that you do and all of a sudden,
you know,
a couple of hours later he walks out so grateful to be alive.
So that,
that's wonderful to have those kind of easy wins.
I think on the less pretty part,
one thing that stands out,
of course,
is my coworkers.
(10:38):
Uh,
I'm still friends with some of them and the relationship,
the,
the collaboration that's required in the medical field,
the having each other's back one time,
a manager completely having my back when um II I went to the head of the hospital about a patient issue.
(11:00):
I bypassed the whole food chain because I knew I would get nose along the way.
And what I was doing for one patient was very important and I needed the hospital's cooper operation.
So of course,
the chain did not appreciate that very much.
And the nursing supervisor wanted to fire me.
And uh and my,
my manager said uh to her,
(11:21):
you know,
Kim just has a really big heart.
So she walked by me one day and she said you cost the hospital X amount of money and uh I didn't care because I still felt that it was the right thing to do and that particular amount of money was not gonna break the hospital.
So,
but the fact that that manager understood me,
(11:44):
saw me and stood up for me is again something I'll never forget.
That's an amazing feeling when,
when you,
you feel seen,
especially when it could cost somebody something.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
Priceless.
So,
a lot of times when people look at disputes from the outside,
(12:05):
a lot of times work disputes can feel or seem petty.
Right.
They're squabbling over whatever it may be.
And of course,
sometimes the disputes we come across are,
are pretty massive,
you know,
when it comes to,
you know,
who's gonna do what with the Children or whatever it may be that those are pretty big decisions but going from life or death in the,
(12:26):
in the,
er,
or the,
the medicine that you practiced to seemingly these very small disputes,
how do you,
how do you refrain from minimizing or trivializing the people that you come in contact with when it's not life or death?
So,
I have never thought of someone's conflict.
(12:47):
This small,
never ever has that even occurred to me.
I think,
uh,
when I use the phrase stepping on each other's toes,
um,
when we step on each other's toes,
it,
well,
I don't judge whether it's small or not.
It,
it touches something inside of us that never feels small.
You know what I'm saying?
(13:07):
So,
I don't,
I think of conflict at every level as,
uh,
still emergency work.
But now emergency work for the spirit for the soul,
for,
for a quality of life,
you know,
versus physical and,
um,
they're so intertwined Right,
(13:27):
our physical and our emotional mental state.
Um,
and it's so hard to be our best when we are in conflict that I think I,
I still feel like it's kind of a treatment to alleviate that so we can feel better.
So I,
I really feel like it's parallel work in just a different segment of our lives.
(13:53):
Absolutely love that.
Right.
Conflict again.
It's like the grass is greener from the outside.
I might think.
Why does that bother you or that's not a big deal.
Right.
We see lots of people being minimized but when it's you,
when you're feeling the physical pain or when you are feeling those barbs or whatever at work,
it isn't small because it really cuts at who we are as people and our sense in the world and our sense of being loved and cared for and,
(14:22):
and the way that humans are wired,
we just,
we are constantly scanning our environment for all of this,
how everybody is treating us.
And so when things are going wrong,
it can greatly affect us mentally.
And then,
of course,
physically.
So I absolutely agree.
And I think it's really a great reminder to not trivialize others just as we don't want to be tr trivialized.
(14:49):
Yeah,
I think,
um,
you know,
uh,
what hurts us is based partly in self protection,
as you said,
which is,
you know,
we all have a degree of that,
um,
and varying degrees of that to the fact that it's touching on something that hurt us in the past and you may react to something I say that I think is nothing but who am I to say?
(15:12):
It's nothing.
It is clearly something to you.
Right.
So,
um,
you know what,
what we do is get curious about what,
what it is that we did or said,
you know,
why did it have that impact on you?
Um Yeah,
and,
and where's another route we can take to the outcome we're trying to get,
(15:33):
that doesn't do that.
Now,
I don't think we should avoid stepping on each other's toes because I think there's so much growth and learning when we do that.
I think it's just going to happen,
like conflict is just going to happen.
And I know we probably share very much,
um most people thinking that if you're having conflict,
somebody is doing something wrong and what we share is that it's an opportunity for growth.
(15:59):
It's just a sign that um something needs to change and that change can always be for the better if we have the tools and skills to move it in that direction.
Absolutely right.
Conflict as opportunity.
It may not feel like that at the time,
but that's,
that's the way growth happens.
(16:19):
And in fact,
we might say that if there is no conflict,
that's a bad sign,
it's a sign that people aren't engaged because why would we think especially at work that we're gonna all have the same idea and the same way that we want to move forward with whatever it is that we're working on that,
that's not good.
(16:39):
That does not going to lead to innovation,
healthy work environment.
It means that usually people have been silenced.
And I think there's,
you know,
there's seasons of peace,
you know,
that things get broken and you find ways to fix them and then it's good.
I always say things work until they don't.
And when we hit the point where they don't work.
(17:02):
A lot of times people are saying,
well,
that's a failure or there's fault or,
you know,
blame.
And I think that's,
it's normal to hit a point where things no longer work and it's time to renegotiate and find a new thing that does work.
So even in my work in mediation,
if I'm doing an agreement or my,
(17:22):
I do similar work is you and organizations.
It's like here's the agreement,
here's what you want to do moving forward.
But let me just tell you,
this is not a permanent thing.
This will work until it stops working because life's changing all the time and we're changing all the time and situations are changing all the time.
So being able to learn,
you know,
new skills and uh change with the things that change is very healthy,
(17:49):
change can be so difficult.
And yet I think if we embrace it,
that change is the nature of existence,
we change,
we grow older.
Um If we have families,
they change and that's good,
bad.
It is just what it is and we need to accept it.
And so organizations change and colleagues come and go and we come and go and that is natural.
(18:14):
And so a lot of times people think,
oh I've gotten through this conflict,
I'm done with conflict.
It's like no,
you did it through this and prepare for the next one so that you can act in accordance with your values instead of reacting as if,
as if something has really gone wrong.
And it means of course,
sometimes things really do break terribly that,
you know,
(18:34):
just like in our life,
people get in car accidents,
that's a tragedy.
And sometimes tragedies are really difficult.
Things happen at work or a pandemic hits us.
And so adapting and setting those expectations that there is going to be difficulty and we are going to deal with it.
And in the meantime,
getting those skills to deal with it,
(18:56):
I think,
I think you're right.
Change is change is hard.
I mean,
it's so nice.
I love when my life is in a comfort zone for a while.
You know,
it's so rare that it's like smooth sailing and then change is hard.
I mean,
we just know that it is,
we have to both accept that there will always be change.
(19:19):
And I think we have to allow really to grieve the things that have changed that are no longer the way they are.
We just can't stay stuck in that or go back to that.
I mean,
the language that happens a lot is I want to go back.
Well,
really,
I think most people want to move forward to a better next because life is a progression and,
(19:45):
um,
our relationships and work and everything is a progression and going back is a recession.
You know,
it is,
it is,
it isn't going to happen because once an event has happened to change things,
there is no going back.
It's now with those facts as well.
So,
um none of that's easy.
(20:06):
I mean,
it,
it takes a,
a conscience conscious effort and um I think like you said,
I mean,
it,
it definitely takes learning skills to do it because most of us just haven't learned how,
you know,
we kind of grow up with this.
Everything should be like shoulds you probably talk about should,
you know,
should means it's my value,
(20:27):
but they're really usually not even true because,
you know,
my,
my partner should have done this.
They don't know,
those are your rules.
I mean,
those shoulds are our rules,
right?
And we kind of impose this on other people.
So,
um yeah,
it's uh it's communication.
I really love,
(20:47):
I love the show and I love the progression and when we want things to go back,
I completely understand that.
Usually we think to a pace,
place of safety,
a place of peace and,
and we want peace.
Absolutely.
But I think a part of,
of developing conflict resolution skills is accepting reality.
(21:09):
You don't have to like it.
But when you accept it,
you free yourself to move forward as you said to,
to find the better to get unstuck.
So we accept that this terrible thing has happened or this thing that we don't like or this thing that shouldn't be but was or is.
And so what do we do now?
(21:31):
So conflict resolution is first and foremost,
empowering is taking our power back and saying this is the situation.
What am I going to do to move forward?
Because the forward is always there,
right?
Life is like a river,
it is flowing and we can try to beat our fists and go upstream,
but we're not gonna be able to do it so we can be caught in the tide or we can decide what is in our control to actually control that which is in our minds.
(21:59):
But what,
how we're gonna think and,
and what are we going to do next?
You're a,
a rare conflict manager um that,
that shares like when people ask me what conflict management is about empowerment is my first word as well because you know,
we can,
I think there's a space in between how things were things go sideways.
(22:22):
We have to grieve,
we can stomp our feet.
For a while and then we move on,
but we need that space to decide who we're going to be next.
When,
when we become a victim,
we completely lose our power.
We've given everything to whatever event or person and we might be in that space for a moment.
That's pretty normal too.
(22:43):
But you just don't wanna stay in that space because,
um,
I mean,
it's your life and,
uh,
yeah,
there's,
there's so much more to do moving forward.
Yes.
Yes,
absolutely.
And I do,
I don't wanna highlight that because I think that's important.
I think when we talk about forward looking,
we think about conflict resolution and restoration.
(23:05):
Sometimes people hear,
well,
you just have to ignore the past and get on with it and that's clearly not what we're saying.
We address what has happened.
You've got to address what's happened or it's just that trauma that toxins just keep on coming with us un unless we clear ourselves out of it and deal with our emotional responses and deal with the really difficult things.
(23:26):
I mean,
life throws horrendous things at us,
wonderful things and most of life is the mundane,
the in between and I love the in between,
you know,
I love the hive and,
but we all experience the variety of life and so the humane healthy thing is to really squarely take the necessary time to deal with what has happened so that you can move forward in a fruitful way.
(23:52):
So if anybody says,
oh,
just get on with it and doesn't want to address the harm that has happened or that they have a occur they have caused.
Um,
I would say,
well,
they can do what they want but what are you going to do?
How are you going to deal with it?
And what story are you going to tell yourself now and into the future?
Yeah,
I,
I love that.
(24:13):
And it really,
when I'm hearing you describe that truth,
I'm thinking of the fact that maybe that lends us to remember that other people are going through a lot too.
So,
and we don't know what they're going through.
We know what we're going through,
we know what we're dealing with.
(24:34):
But so is everyone else,
you know,
so that moment when you want to react instead of response.
Um And you wonder why somebody could do something or say something like they did if there's a pause there to remember that everybody's going through stuff too.
(24:57):
Absolutely.
That humanizing right back to the,
the pausing and getting out of ourselves,
you know,
our ourselves.
Yes,
but ourselves and others,
right?
It's not just them,
it's not just us but finding that balance.
So why did you leave nursing?
Did you go leave nursing and go into dispute resolution or,
or what happened there?
(25:18):
Great question.
So um eventually I got kind of burnt out in the trauma and I love people and I love the mind and body.
The whole thing is,
well,
we're fascinating.
I mean,
this whole life thing is just fascinating.
So I went to graduate school in psychology and um realized for me that,
(25:40):
that was uh sorry,
counselors and psychologists.
But for me,
that occupation is like watching paint dry because I have the heart of an ear nurse.
You know,
it's a very slow process.
So I went back into nursing and then my family relocated and I had young twins and um my husband at the time was traveling a lot,
(26:05):
so I stayed home,
homeschooled them and really didn't work outside of the home except for volunteering as in nursing.
Um and particularly in Africa.
So then,
um I went through a really,
really bad divorce and uh you know,
even a good divorce is painful and has a lot of dehumanizing.
(26:30):
And uh I think when,
when you use the divorce word,
the you're hopping on a train and the whole world conspires then to keep you on that train that leads to you have no idea where.
And I have a very,
very wise brother who had heard of something called transformative Mediation out of Hofstra University in New York.
He said he sent me an article and he said,
(26:51):
look,
there's this thing called mediation and people actually work out their problems,
they'd listen to each other and work out their problems without beating each other up.
Now,
back in those days if you typed into your computer mediation,
the computer would say you mean meditation.
And I didn't,
didn't even know what this mediation stuff was.
So I went to Hofstra and that's the home of transformative mediation,
(27:15):
a certain type of mediation.
And I was fascinated.
And uh so then I went to graduate school and conflict management and got my master's in conflict management.
And my hope was,
and I'm still so passionate about this to help people resolve their conflicts in a way that everyone saves space,
(27:36):
that there's not blame,
that we have the tools to mitigate for conflict in every section of our life.
Knowing it's not easy,
but it is possible.
And uh yeah,
so I,
I love what I do and,
and I,
I do want to add,
you know,
it's so not easy.
It's a lot harder if you don't have the tools because like you said,
you,
you,
(27:56):
most people are conflict avoidant,
which builds up a lot of pain,
either between the relationship,
which can become a garbage pile or in ourselves,
which can also feel like a garbage pile.
But I always say that I am really,
really good at conflict management unless it's my own life.
You know,
because conflict,
(28:18):
the nature of being in conflict means that we are in pain.
And I noticed when I first started working that everybody came in the door,
like literally everybody came in the door.
It's like he's a narcissist she's a narcissist and a counselor friend of mine said,
you know what all of us are narcissists when we're in pain because then it's all about us.
(28:42):
So I know that I can't see my best options when I'm in that space of pain.
And that's why I love people like you and I,
because the third party neutral,
who can help us see what we can't see who can help us process without shaming,
without blaming,
(29:03):
without making us weird.
Who understands that all these things we go through are normal,
like they're normal,
but we've never spoken of them before to be able to develop the tool.
Now,
we're talking about how hard it is to be in a relationship with someone or to be working in a certain space or to be ourselves even.
(29:23):
And now we have the tools to work through it.
But it requires sometimes that person who opens up a safe space so that we can see more options than we see when we're in pain.
Wonderful.
Absolutely.
I like,
I like that you have said several times hard and pain because there are some people in our space who like to talk about confident conversations,
(29:51):
courageous conversations.
And I agree and they don't like the word hard because they feel like it's setting people up giving them a false expectation that something is going to be difficult.
And I want to say it is difficult.
I,
I don't want to sugar coat it.
It's hard.
Uh I do want people to be confident and it does take courage.
(30:13):
I always admire people who make it to mediation.
And Kim,
I love talking about conflict and other people's conflict.
And I'm the same when it's mine.
It's like,
what do I do for a living?
I don't,
you know,
and I feel it in my neck and in my body and my,
I just go,
it's like I,
you know,
and then I have to say,
OK,
what would I tell somebody else?
(30:34):
You know,
how to myself?
How do I use my words?
How do I,
how do I?
So unless we're triggered,
you know,
we get triggered too.
That means we're re reacting to something.
I mean,
we're human.
It's going to happen.
The thing that learning conflict skills does is the what next?
Because right now a trigger and a reaction is,
(30:57):
becomes a wall for most people,
a wall.
And I like to say that we turn that wall,
we put a door in the wall because it's not ever how someone stepped on your toes.
We're going to step on each other's toes.
It's the what next?
And it's the what next that we haven't learned and that's where really courage comes in,
you know,
and the what next is usually about speaking your truth and deciding how you all are going to move past that because we will,
(31:26):
we can like,
we can not always,
I mean,
certainly not always,
but most of the time we can,
I love that,
you know,
learning conflict resolution skills.
I do think that it can take away some unnecessary conflict.
Right.
So,
in,
I think the better that we think about our own reactions and in a way,
really embracing living and let living,
(31:46):
but now everybody has to think and believe and act the way that I do so,
really allowing people to be themselves,
but it doesn't take away conflict,
which is not the goal,
wouldn't it even be good?
I love that.
But what's next?
Ok,
this happened,
I feel this way.
I'm in pain.
What am I going to do?
And I love those options back to that personal empowerment.
(32:09):
Ok?
I can do this,
I can do that.
Hopefully I have maybe somebody I can reach out to,
to,
you know,
talk with or there's just a variety of things available once you start looking into and developing your own little,
your own personal toolkit,
what works for you.
And of course,
it's gonna be different in different circumstances,
(32:29):
different stages of your life and so on.
That's exactly right.
Definitely,
definitely under the different circumstances too.
Yeah,
it's never the same.
That,
that's one of the things that,
that helps conflict or be conflict in.
Not a good way is when we,
you know,
we have an interaction with someone in the past and we have a new interaction now and our brains are hardwired to make it like,
(32:53):
oh,
here we go.
Again.
This person is still when it's really just a new situation and needs to be looked at as a new situation.
So we're not trying to deal with it like the old situation.
Yes.
I,
I absolutely agree.
I think conflict resolution at work begins way before there's any conflict.
Right with laying that foundation to build relationships so that when we step on each other's toes,
(33:18):
when there really is friction,
we have some sort of foundation that I think about,
you know,
my kids when they were little and one would just have to walk in the room and the other person would get upset,
you know,
because of,
you know,
those childish,
childish,
you know,
fights that little kids have and uh and the feelings that are associated.
So it's not what just happened,
(33:40):
it's what happened before and before and before and before.
So if we,
if we deal in our workplaces and really think about who am,
who am I showing up every day as a professional?
And how am I treating people as professional and as a human,
right?
Humans first with dignity and respect and establishing those relationships,
then I think being able to not carry uh or see things as slight because maybe if I've developed a relationship,
(34:08):
I might be able to feel more comfortable coming to you and say this is what happened.
Is this what you meant?
Right?
The principle of charity extending that to others.
But we typically only extend that when we feel like we have a reason or the person is gonna be receptive because there's a relationship there.
Uh That's exactly right.
And you can see where these come from.
(34:28):
I mean,
these kind of rules of engagement.
And I,
uh I say to people,
you know,
what happened to you in your family of origin when you were the source of the conflict and how does that impact how you handle conflict today?
It certainly impacts our rules,
(34:49):
our shoulds and shouldn't like that.
We get most of those and those may work for three year olds and four year olds and six year olds,
but they no longer work as adults.
So this sometimes that we learned are very important for families and in the family unit,
but they don't translate well into the outside world,
but we're,
(35:09):
we're still trying to do that and it's not working,
which is a great reason,
you know,
to learn more skills.
Absolutely.
So,
Kim,
when you think about your history of work and the different places that you worked,
you certainly have had conflict.
Like you mentioned a little bit of a conflict that you had or a big conflict when seeking care for somebody who needed it.
(35:30):
So how,
how do you see your own conflict,
ability to deal with conflict in the work environment?
How has that changed over time and maybe a conflict you had when you were a younger,
younger person knowing what,
you know,
now,
how would you approach it now,
or would it be different?
(35:51):
Oh,
you learn a lot as the years go on,
don't you?
Um,
so,
uh,
I think,
uh,
I've always been able to get along with most people and,
you know,
there's always those couple of people that,
that trigger something.
So,
I think that's been helpful.
I,
I haven't not spent much time in a real judgment.
(36:11):
I'm hard on me,
I'm not hard on everybody else.
So I,
I've never expect,
I mean,
I get that people mess up that things go sideways.
I,
I've always been very anti meanness like me,
meanness has always been the kind of thing for me,
but some of the bigger lessons that I've learned was,
(36:31):
um,
you know,
sometimes in,
at work I was the only person that thought something was right.
You know,
and uh I remember like literally standing outside of an,
er,
crying because I was very passionate about the treatment of a certain patient and everybody else thought a different way.
And I'm like,
(36:52):
I must be like the freak here and my secretary who was like a mom came out and she said,
you know,
just because everyone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you're wrong.
That was a pretty powerful moment.
The other lesson was this two big lessons.
Number one,
you know,
how you talk at work with people and you may confide.
(37:14):
And next thing you know,
that person has told somebody else and you feel betrayed.
I learned two things.
Number one,
I'm responsible for what comes out of my mouth and I cannot hand that responsibility to someone else because I can't hold it and ask them to hold it.
So my expectation is if I say something,
even if I would like it to be confidential,
(37:36):
it still stopped here and the responsibility stops here.
Right.
I wanna talk about it because it's too much for me to hold,
but I don't want you to talk about it,
you have to hold it.
So,
just knowing that I'm responsible and being careful to say what may or may not come back to me later,
that was very freeing for me.
(37:56):
The other thing was just because people are friendly doesn't mean they're your friend and,
uh,
my daughter who is an,
er,
nurse now,
um,
discovered that recently,
uh,
having a conflict in her own place.
So,
so,
yeah,
I keep learning a lot and now,
(38:16):
especially in nursing,
there's so much conflict.
Um,
I guess one more thing about conflict that was very impactful and that was our own ownership of how something hits us.
So,
uh,
a patient told me one time she was uh very angry because in the,
er,
sometimes there are people seeking narcotics and we wouldn't give her what she was wanting and she said,
(38:40):
do you know what you are,
you're nothing.
And that hit me so hard because in my head,
the first thing I thought was,
how did she know?
Hm.
You know,
because we're kind of bluffing sometimes.
Right.
And I had a back story with a lot of pain.
Well,
the wake up moment isn't,
(39:00):
that's her fault for saying it,
it is.
What is in me?
That,
that rings true.
And can I become a whole enough person?
That's like somebody can tell me that I'm a green hippopotamus and I'm gonna think,
am I?
No,
that's not who I am.
(39:21):
So sometimes our responses to conflict aren't the other person.
It is something inside of us that we need to grow or grow into.
And I certainly had plenty of that kind of work to do.
So where if I'm morphed into,
I mean,
I'm morphed into doing similar work as you.
(39:41):
I work with organizations in conflict,
love working with healthcare,
uh health.
I mean,
they're my,
they're my people and I think so many people in the workplace are struggling when they don't have to.
And I'm a big believer in quality of life and our work takes up a big space of our life.
So being miserable,
(40:02):
going to work should not be an option.
Yeah.
And if,
if going through a little bit of hardness to make it better means that it alleviates that and you can enjoy going to work.
I'm gonna share real quick,
uh,
11 medical organization I work with,
I,
I still remain their,
(40:22):
you know,
uh on board and conflict person.
So I'm on boarding a new person,
telling them the culture that this workplace wanted to have,
make sure they're on board and seeing how that's going with them and say,
hey,
I'm here if you have any conflict that you can't work through together,
she said if I would have had this service at any place,
I would have worked in my whole life.
(40:43):
I would have never left my job.
Isn't that awesome?
Like it can be better,
it can be better.
Oh,
gosh,
Kim.
I feel like we are long lost sisters.
I absolutely agree.
I mean,
this,
this whole trite meme of,
you know,
oh,
it's Sunday night and I've got to,
you know,
go to work on Monday.
It's so terrible.
(41:03):
Now I realize not everybody has the benefit.
I mean,
we're all at different stages.
We have different kinds of jobs for a variety of reasons.
But just because you were at a job,
let's say a fast food job and you don't want to be there.
It doesn't mean it has to be a bad experience.
Right?
There are all these stories that we tell ourselves and,
but sometimes the culture is toxic and there are bullies and there are all of these really bad things happening.
(41:30):
And I think we have a moral imperative to say no,
everyone should be treated with dignity and respect,
respect.
It doesn't matter what kind of job or where they are in the company.
If they are a part time person or they're the ceo everyone deserves to have a healthy work environment.
And that's our responsibility to bring that about.
And so why organizations,
(41:53):
they're not more ombuds at organizations or access to third party mediators?
It's mind blowing when you look at just the,
the dollar amount,
right?
Society for Human resource management says that in the US,
we spend over $40 billion annually to toxic work environments.
And Gallup says it's closer to a trillion in the world.
(42:14):
Gallup says it's the GDP is like 7 to 9% of the world GDP is spent or lost due to bad management,
bad environments.
So from just a dollars and cents point of view,
it doesn't make any sense to not have healthy work environments,
but more importantly from uh you know,
what is life for?
(42:34):
What is it we want,
we want to have good work environments,
we want to have good relationships,
we want to do work that matters.
We want to feel a sense of belonging and there's no reason why we can't bring that about.
Yeah.
And all of what you said and the fact that we're not as good as compartmentalizing as we think we are.
So if we're struggling at work,
(42:56):
it's probably leaking out at home or in our relationships too.
I mean,
again,
that's normal.
But if you can fix the leak and I wanna say this because I,
I know a lot of people ask me,
well,
what if you can't get the organization on board and it can be really hard for people to wanna look in the mirror and see what's broken.
(43:17):
Um I think that you were working in a system,
there are families in the system and if one piece of that system changes,
the whole system is going to change.
So whatever interaction you have in your group,
we all keep kind of the same rules and rules and the dynamic going and people want to bring that system to the table and the system is like,
(43:43):
no,
you can,
you can do it,
you can get conflict coaching,
figure out how to deal better for you.
And when you stop playing by the rules of the group,
even if they're toxic rules,
it will change.
There's no guarantee.
We don't know how it will change.
But 100% we know that the system will change because one piece of it has changed.
(44:07):
So there's always hope and I love that because some people,
you know,
people are in despair,
right?
And they say nothing will ever change.
That person will never change,
the organization will never change.
And I wanna say maybe,
but you can,
and when you,
it's amazing when you,
when you change all these possibilities open up and you might have told yourself,
(44:30):
I can't go anyplace else for these particular reasons.
And,
you know,
of course,
maybe that is true.
We want to be,
you know,
there's all different kinds of situations,
but usually there are other options and when we start taking ownership and,
and really saying,
ok,
this is my life.
What is it that I want?
What are my boundaries which are up to me to keep and not somebody else.
(44:51):
What am I going to do next?
And when you start looking at the world from that lens,
this is my life.
I get to decide it is amazing that I love teaching philosophy.
But I stayed at my job for a couple of years too long because I told myself this story.
I live in this very small town.
What can you do?
What does an out of work philosopher do?
Who's not teaching philosophy?
(45:12):
And so I stayed longer than I really should have because I didn't see.
But once I stepped out all of these opportunities opened because instead of me saying you need to change,
you need to do this for me.
I said,
what am I going to do?
How am I going?
It was a long process and most of us who go through change,
it takes,
takes a time.
But I say the heart of conflict is so much better and life giving and flourishing than staying with the known of the,
(45:42):
of the conflict of the destructive conflict.
A philosopher told me once,
take a step and the ground will appear.
If you take a step,
the ground will appear.
And I,
I think that's true.
I mean,
when I went through my divorce,
you know,
I,
I knew everything had to change and I also knew it wouldn't change if I stayed inside my house with the door closed,
(46:05):
opportunity is not going to come knocking at your door no matter what the saying says,
you have to go doing,
do it.
So I gave myself permission to try things and fail.
I gave myself permission to walk a path and if it didn't work out,
because one of my struggles was always,
once I started something,
(46:25):
I was raised to finish it.
And even if I knew it was not the best thing for me or my world,
I stuck with it too long.
So I said this time,
I'm going to take opportunities when I see it.
I'm going to try it if I don't like it or it doesn't feel right.
I'm going to let it go,
but I'm going to keep moving forward.
(46:47):
And um you know,
I can't say that that's easy,
but I think it's way easier than the alternative,
which is being stuck because there's a lot of pain in being stuck.
Absolutely.
So,
Kim,
I know we're sort of drawing to the end of our time.
But I have two last things I want to talk to you about.
One I would like to hear from you an ode to mediation.
(47:11):
Why should people try mediation if they need it?
A lot of people are afraid,
they are afraid,
especially in a work environment that it's just a long arm of,
you know,
policy or,
um,
that it's really in disguise or that it's gonna be punitive or it's gonna make things worse.
Why should people open themselves to going to a third party mediator?
(47:34):
Yeah,
I kind of feel like we'll have to,
uh,
sort of recap everything we've talked about because in a lot of ways,
I think we covered that problems can be solved.
There are solutions.
Uh,
it might be trial and error but,
uh,
the one thing or a couple of things about media is it's absolutely not about blame.
Uh,
we're supposed to be impartial or unbiased.
(47:56):
I had a great,
um,
teacher who kind of wrote the book on mediation and he describes himself as omni partial,
which is a word that is not in the dictionary,
but it means he's for both sides.
And I find that I always am,
I want you to have the best outcome and I want you to have the best outcome.
So it's an opportunity to hear what's really going on from the other side.
(48:22):
It's an opportunity to be heard.
And I want to say about that hearing part because in the absence of knowing we make up a story and most of the time our story is not really what's going on.
And all we have to do is ask and I ask like this,
the story I'm telling myself is that you came late just to piss me off.
(48:44):
You know,
and it's like,
no,
my kid had the flu.
I mean,
you know,
it's,
it's always makes sense when we take the time to ask.
So mediation gives an opportunity to understand and then those people get to decide the what next they get to decide.
And it's not an either or this is what I love about mediation.
(49:05):
When most people come in conflict,
they have two choices your way or your way.
And as mediators,
our job is to draw a line between the two of them and see what else is there,
you know,
because there's always something there.
So we start exploring what other options there are.
And even in my head just describing that I have the sense of moving forward,
(49:27):
you know,
and then giving permission for let's try it.
And if it doesn't work,
we'll renegotiate.
Um So II,
I see people come out of this with whatever degree of agreement works for them.
But definitely I've never seen anyone come out of the process and say,
I wish I hadn't done that.
(49:48):
I have never seen that to some degree and part of that's up to the people coming in,
they're in a better place always when they move forward,
whether that means they have more understanding of themselves or,
and the other person or it means that they actually came to an agreement on how they're going to do something and reconcile that relationship.
(50:09):
And I do some tough mediations.
I do the police community mediations for the Los Angeles City Attorney's office.
This works.
The process works.
So,
um it doesn't hurt to try.
I wish more people knew about mediation.
I wish they knew it was an option.
And a beautiful place for an option is pre litigation.
(50:29):
Like a lot of times in litigation,
uh,
you have to go to mediation somewhere on the line.
But by then,
you know,
you have attorneys who are escalating the conflict between the people because that's their job and you've lost a lot of money.
When at the end of the day,
if you sat down and had a conversation,
it's not an hour conversation.
(50:51):
I mean,
I talked to this party and let them vent everything and that everything is safe and confidential.
And then this party does the same and then we decide in these separate conversations what each person needs in that moment and then we come together and work through it and the process just works.
(51:12):
Yeah,
it is amazing.
I was talking to an hr manager who I'd done a mediation with,
I was doing something else and I pass mediation and she said it was a third,
three party,
three parties in this mediation.
And she said two of them had spoken to her and said that it was a transformative experience and that's what mediation is that door.
You talked about it.
(51:33):
If you open yourself up to,
to being heard,
I mean,
when I go to,
when I'm with other mediators or go to a mediator conference or an ombuds conference,
there's nothing like being around those people who are trained to listen,
who love people and who really wanna listen to others.
And so go to really be listened to and then you'll find you actually get the gift of being able to listen of somebody helping you deescalates yourself,
(52:00):
figuring out the forest for the trees.
What is the real issue?
And it's not the person.
What is the,
what is the problem that we can actually make forward motion on?
So wonderful?
Yes,
it's almost a sacred outcome because it is transformative.
But people are exposing like it's amazing to me how honest people are in that place that is safe and then they're being honest with themselves too.
(52:27):
And that's where the transformation is.
Nobody expects what's gonna come out,
you know,
but just having that safe place and on,
it's just spiritual.
It's just incredible when it happens.
So my last question for you is when you look into the future of the world of work,
what do you think needs to happen?
(52:47):
So that not only is everybody treated with dignity and respect at work,
but they're actually encouraged to thrive and flourish.
That's a great question.
I,
I could probably write a book on that.
I,
I think that I think everything begins with who am I?
So my commitment to treat everyone with respect if we all were committed,
(53:12):
not to treat people like we want to be treated,
but to treat people like they want to be treated.
Um And then I would like to see the future of work be that people design their own work culture.
Um A manager,
you know,
the buck has to stop somewhere.
So a manager or whoever that person is,
is listening to each person is seeing each person,
(53:35):
we're seeing one another and decisions are made by consensus or uh collaboration,
maybe not consensus but collaboration on deciding what's best making room for error because to be creative,
some things will work and some things won't and um and making space for that as well.
(53:57):
So I,
I think seeing each other as people treating each other as people is different humans.
And the one I,
the last thing I wanna say that I want folks to take home with them is um a little saying that occurred to me.
I use it a lot just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm against you.
It means I'm me.
(54:18):
I'm just different than you.
So it would be lovely to have a work environment that acknowledged all those things.
Yes,
absolutely.
Well,
Kim,
thank you.
So much for your work and uh for your time today.
I loved it.
Thank you,
Mary.
Take care,
Kim.
What an absolute pleasure to talk with you today.
(54:38):
It's such a treat to talk to somebody who's been in this space for so long.
I appreciate the work that you are doing to help people have better lives and we deal with the pain that we're in.
We're more likely to be able to help the next person,
help ourselves.
We help others.
Conflict managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me,
(55:02):
Merry Brown.
Come back next Tuesday,
we have new episodes every Tuesday.
If you haven't had a chance to check out my book,
How To Be Unprofessional at Work (55:09):
Tips to Ensure Failure.
It's 80 tips of what not to do and it starts a conversation about what does it mean to be professional and what does a good work culture look like?
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot.
And remember,
conflict is normal and to be expected,
let's deal with it until next time.
(55:30):
Take care.
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