TNP219 The Metaskills of Healing with Thérèse Cator

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
The Numinous podcast with Carbon Spagnola.
Hi there and welcome to the Newmans podcast where we have interesting conversations with everyday folks about the Mystery of Life.
I'm your host,
Carmen Spagnola,
joining you from the lands at the Laquon speaking peoples,

(00:28):
the Song Hes and the Esquimalt first nations recently known as Victoria BC Canada right off the top.
I want to say I have a special listener.
Shout out today at the end of the show for someone who's um account name on Apple podcasts is Anna Oaxaca who left me a very important review on Apple podcasts and I want to address it and also go even deeper with it because it actually super relates to the topic of today's episode,

(00:58):
the meta skills of healing.
So that'll be in the last part of this episode.
This episode came about because of my deep friendship with my guest,
Therese Cator Therese is a trauma informed embodiment practitioner whose work provides an intersectional and decolonial lens that's pretty rare in an overwhelmingly white and ablest,

(01:24):
frankly somatics field.
When Therese reached out to me in 2017,
we were social media mutuals and it seemed like it was time to connect 1 to 1 and we really hit it off.
We had a lot of parallel trainings in healing modalities and spiritual paths.
Like we hadn't done the exact same thing,
but they were very similar and at pretty similar times and were similar age.

(01:48):
And as we look to the horizon with our work,
we seemed to be tracking the same things and wanting to steer our work in similar directions.
Some of you may even remember that I first invited terse onto this podcast in October of that year,
episode 85 of the numinous podcast published Halloween 2017.

(02:10):
Anyway,
since that time,
we've become peers in a number of trainings.
We've collaborated and co facilitated.
We've just become really good friends who've seen each other through a lot of shit,
you know,
not just large scale social emergencies but personal crises too.
We're both pretty collapse aware.

(02:31):
We not only track how these large scale social problems are showing up with our clients uh and in our personal lives,
but we brainstorm a lot about how to provide broad and consistent therapeutic outreach during collapsed times when the need is so great,
the pain is so acute,
the ongoing trauma is so severe.

(02:53):
Like not only how are we going to respond as therapeutic helpers,
how,
what's the shape of our teaching or space holding or,
or healing offerings going to take?
Um But how also are we going to like help skill up more people um help provide some kind of training or psychoeducation to give so that more people have a manner of approach that can include and hold all of these large scale factors.

(03:25):
And sometimes we have ideas just independent of each other,
but that still parallel each other.
And you'll hear about that.
In this episode,
we each independently had the idea to offer some upcoming training around these themes.
So more on that later as well,
I invited Therese to talk about the meta skills of healing at a live event,

(03:45):
which was a pre even it was like a warm up to my Witches New Year event happening on October 28th.
Um Therese is in a different,
she's occupied at that time,
but I still wanted to have her um as part of it and just seemed like the themes we were both sort of kicking around separately were so timely and I wanted to um use this timing where there was like lots of eyes on what I was doing to like,

(04:16):
give some attention to what we were thinking about.
And I had so many people who couldn't make it to the live event or they missed the deadline for the recording,
who really,
really wanted that content.
And I believe it's important material for all the therapeutic helpers.
And also anyone who's looking for a good therapist like this episode,

(04:36):
I hope will help help you shape.
Like what specifically does a therapist need to model to signal that you're on the same page that this is a workable useful relationship.
And if they're not on the same page that either will shorten the time you spend with them or that will like narrow your focus with them or maybe it'll eliminate them.

(04:57):
But um I just feel like this is important material for both therapeutic helpers and anyone on a healing journey.
And of course,
by no means is this list of meta skills that we're talking about in this episode.
Comprehensive.
But I think this conversation between me and Therese gives plenty to work with for a start.

(05:23):
We are trying to be very cognizant of um having a session today that doesn't require a content warning.
We wanna be gentle with you and we're gonna do our best.
But sometimes things do come up when we're talking about healing and in particular,
I think it's really important to name that um you know,

(05:43):
I am supporting in my practice,
people who are deeply hurting um because of the escalated violence in Israel and Palestine and who are trying to hold the humans at the center of this um and distinguish between um military and civilian and doing their best to hold nuance.

(06:12):
And um yeah,
in honor of that,
I'm gonna do my best as well and just hold that there's a tremendous amount of personal and collective pain.
It's just in the backdrop of today.
And um there's no ignoring that.
So even though we aren't directly speaking to that today,

(06:32):
it's with us,
it's in the room and you might be here because you are a practitioner,
a therapeutic practitioner.
Um You might identify as healer.
Um And all of us are here because we're interested in doing our work and taking care of our own shit.
Um But sometimes the,
the,
the pain is just so much.

(06:55):
So I acknowledge that there's a lot of broken hearts in the room today and hold that even as we um muddle through trying to hold space for nuanced complexity and just unspeakable sorrow and horror.
So,
with that,
I would like to introduce my dear friend,

(07:18):
you know what I'm crying.
So I was like,
I admire her so much.
Yeah,
I am so honored to have Therese couture um facilitating this session today.
She's always game when I'm like,
hey,
let's do a thing.

(07:39):
We're always looking for ways that we can collaborate.
It's such a joy um because I admire her intellect and her um complexity and capacity.
And nuance Therese uh has,
is a long time uh coach and embodiment practitioner,

(08:01):
uh a somatic experiencing practitioner.
She has several modalities that she's very skilled in.
Um and also comes from a long line of traditional healers from Haiti.
So uh I'm not gonna spend too much time um saying much more,
but I would just like us all to take a moment to welcome with.

(08:24):
So much admiration uh to Kor.
Well,
thank you,
Carmen.
Thank you for that.
I'm like Carmen stop.
But then I remember it's like,
oh,
I'm trying to receive,
I,
I am allowing myself to receive that.
I love you so much and I am so grateful to be here with everyone.

(08:47):
Thank you,
everyone for showing up.
Um And thank you for being here and we're going to talk about the meta skills of healing.
Um Am I supposed to say something else,
Carmen or can I just dive in?
Ok,
we're going to talk about the meta skills of healing.

(09:08):
And I think that Carmen pointed to so many things that are important in terms of locating us in this present day and time.
What is happening now and bringing that into the space as well.
And um what we thought was helpful is to,

(09:29):
to talk about the eight meta skills and,
or principles you can think of them as principles too of healing and we're going to touch upon each of them.
Um Carmen and I had like a 23 hour meeting while chit chat um about this and we're like,
we can go on and on about each one.

(09:52):
So there's a lot of complexities within each one,
but we're going to touch upon all of them.
I was like,
maybe we should do the first three in depth and then I was like,
but then they'll be like,
oh,
what are the rest of them.
So you might want a piece of paper.
I'm just going to list them out right now.
Um The eight meta skills of healing attachment voice,

(10:16):
that's number two.
The third is choice um or consent.
The fourth is agency.
The fifth is humility.
The sixth is analysis.
The seventh is predicament and the last one is enoughness.

(10:40):
So um Carmen,
we spoke about this last night and we wanted to,
to share that this isn't a training.
So again,
we're not going to go in depth,
but I know Carmen has a facilitation training coming up next year and I may too.
So um that that's in the works.

(11:03):
So if you want to,
you know,
you're already on her newsletter,
so you can find out more about that and this is going to be pretty conversational.
So Carmen and I are actually going to go back and forth um with,
with this.
So Carmen is actually going to talk about what are the meta skills and what why they're important to healing.

(11:31):
So,
meta skills has a couple of different uh definitions if we were to combine them together.
Um I would describe meta skills as an overarching range of capabilities that made the ex execution of specific skills easier.
So when you go into like when I did my um dynamic attachment rep patterning training,

(11:55):
it was like,
here's what,
here's the theoretical,
the psycho education stuff,
here's the um skills,
the practices that you would do.
But the meta skills are the capabilities you would have that over arch that,
that kind of keep it all together.
Um Meta skills includes the integration and of your lived experience as well as your attitudes,

(12:19):
uh philosophies,
stance,
politics,
and your practice.
So I first heard this term of meta skills when I was in a deep democracy training with Aftab Erfan.
And if anybody here is in the network,
this is Taran,
a sister.
And so I actually knew um Aftab who is a phenomenal.

(12:41):
Uh She,
she doesn't call it conflict resolution,
she calls it conflict engagement.
She just like goes right into the fray.
And so using deep democracy,
I was uh in training with her and um we were having a conversation because III I was driving her to and from this um training and she was saying,

(13:05):
you know,
Carmen,
the thing about you,
the reason why you are always kind of in the hot seat.
You are always the shit disturber.
It's just,
it's role theory.
Somebody's gotta go in there and kind of like shake it up.
And the reason is because you have the meta skills to be able to handle that,
even if you don't know all the,
you know,
principles and techniques of deep democracy.

(13:26):
Yet you,
you have these meta skills that means that you can kind of muddle through.
So here as you go through this training,
you're,
you're gonna learn how to hold that more skillfully,
you will learn the skills to be able to integrate your,
your meta skills in a certain way.
Another way to describe it is presen thing,
your um philosophies and your um your attitudes.

(13:51):
When we talk about the eight principles,
these aren't in a book somewhere.
This is like stuff that Therese and I who have been in trainings together.
We're,
we're,
we're peers and colleagues who have gone through trainings together and been like,
huh some stuff's missing right here.
Like this is really good material,

(14:11):
but they're missing this piece and that piece.
And so these aren't set in stone.
Even the idea of having better skills is um it's a philosophy more than a theory or a set of things that you do.
Um But I think it's a good term to have to recognize that um skills and tools and techniques are not enough,

(14:34):
the modalities in and of themselves,
of your healing work as a practitioner or even as a person seeking healing isn't enough.
There needs to be meta scape.
So maybe we need another little break with that to us.

(14:54):
Yeah.
So let's take a stretch break.
Um So whatever your body needs,
maybe first,
if you're not attuned to what your body needs,
my body is automatically doing this but tune into your body.
What does your body need?
Do you need to look away?
Do you need to just stretch close your eyes?

(15:19):
Are you breathing?
Are your feet on the floor.
Can you feel your seat?
Can you feel the back of your chair?
Do you need touch our water?

(15:40):
So even doing that small practice,
I do wanna say that that's how we embody these meta skills,
right?
Um So that it's,
it can be really easy.
I think today it's going to be more in the mental realm um for a reason,

(16:01):
right?
Because we don't have a ton of space to do this in depth.
However,
um these meta skills need to also be embodied and the way that they can be embodied is through slowing it down,
taking a break,
noticing what your body needs.
So no one is keeping you here.

(16:22):
So if you feel like,
oh,
I've had enough,
you're welcome to,
you know,
check out,
say bye in the chat and then leave.
You can always look at it later.
Um But really,
uh I guess that's also agency.
So I want to just highlight that,
that you don't have to stay for the entire thing if you feel like,

(16:43):
oh,
I'm at capacity and checking in periodically.
Maybe Carmen might remember to say it or I'll remember to say it.
It's like,
oh,
checking in.
How do you feel?
What do you need in this moment?
So let us dive into the first one,
which is attachment.

(17:03):
So attachment is our ability to feel love,
to feel care.
Um I think it's both for ourselves and also for our clients and it's also being able to have loving boundaries.
I was just gonna say,

(17:24):
yeah,
loving boundaries opposed to borders,
which is different within a,
a really loving context.
Um I know that Carmen also wanted to share about the queer community um is where she learned about how to have proper management of dual relationships.

(17:49):
So Carmen,
do you want to say a little bit about that?
And then we can continue.
Yeah,
Now that I've so I heard about attachment and read about attachment for a long time before I trained in attachment.
And it never really sunk in like I got it mentally,

(18:11):
but it wasn't shifting dynamics in my relationship.
And then I did my training and it has a somatic component and I realized like,
oh,
that's like a missing piece.
Like what is the point even of teaching attachment without somatics?
Because it is nervous system shaping.
It's not about a mental understanding of what your style.

(18:33):
It's about recognizing and being able to see from somebody's like posture and facial expression and tone of voice and their shape,
their literal shape,
what their attachment style might be like and being able to presence one that might be more um stabilizing for them.

(18:55):
So presence in yourself and um offer to someone else a sense of being safe and seen and secure and soothed.
And what I started to notice is that the more you get shaped like that,
the harder and harder it is to do therapy or any kind of healing in a,
in a conventional Western context because you're like the um policies and guidelines around uh management of dual relationships.

(19:25):
So,
meaning maybe you're a practitioner and an extended family member wants to come and see you or like very often in indigenous communities.
You know,
if an indigenous person is working in their community as they should as like a counselor of some kind of addictions counselor,
they're probably gonna be working with people they know or family members.

(19:47):
And so in the Western model,
it's a highly boundary model that uh emphasizes the the safety of the client and protects them from being exploited.
And that exploitation could be all kinds of different things,
but essentially exploiting the client's dependency on the practitioner.
And when you read all these policies,

(20:10):
it's very much like you should not have dual relationships.
You,
it should be like client and uh practitioner and you shouldn't self disclose and there should be kind of no feelings of love towards your client or if there is,
you shouldn't say anything.
And I just don't understand how you don't have a disorganized attachment field when feelings are there of mutual regard or even tenderness or,

(20:35):
or love,
you know,
so it's like I have wanted to invite our couples therapist to,
I was like,
can you have a couples therapist come to an anniversary party?
I would like everyone to know.
Penny,
you know.
And so we,
we do though in postmodern therapy,
we do need to consider like our,

(20:56):
our healing needs to be relevant to the times.
And Western psychology has sprung forth from the imagination of mainly older,
mainly white men.
And it makes sense to me in a patriarchal system that you have to um highly and strictly monitor patriarchy,

(21:20):
which does not even recognize when it is exploiting or when it is uh in a power over situation.
There,
there's just so much blindness to power.
So our policies have been very much created to keep us safe from the imagination of the White Western male mind.

(21:42):
And so we can learn a lot pardon me from the queer community about how to have uh with their mm most often in that literature um is described more as multiple relationships.
Um And so the idea is that people in your community should be able to work with you and you shouldn't be isolated as a therapist um away from your own community supports because you can't have multiple relationships.

(22:11):
Uh and also uh therapeutic practitioners shouldn't run a risk of um uh n negative impression of their reputation as unprofessional for having personal relationships.
And so of course,
we're protecting the client um by,
by reducing harms as much as possible by having conversations about rationale and contingency plans.

(22:39):
And like so then,
OK,
so if I do go to this wedding,
how would you like me to talk to your family about,
you know,
how we know each other,
uh that kind of thing.
So,
uh I'm going to actually share a uh paper,
which is kind of old,
but it's been so um formative for me because I believe that uh the queer community can teach us in Collapse Times um how to take care of each other and be able to have fruitful,

(23:11):
beautiful,
loving,
close,
intimate relationships with,
with clients that help ladder them to making friends in the real world like that.
We don't have to just outsource that we can create the conditions in which it's very clear that this is what we are laddering people along to and what shall we do?

(23:33):
Um In the case of uh some kind of violation of trust or,
or,
or if something just comes up that it's like,
oh,
this is a bit um intense.
How will we manage those relationships?
Um I also believe that being able to bring attachment into our work is a way to bring some class solidarity as well because I don't believe that mental health should be relegated to the realm of the elite and people who can afford it.

(24:03):
And so we are all barefoot doctors on the front lines of trauma.
And uh we all need to have these skills.
And one of the meta skills is learning how to have a rationale and a plan to manage multiple relationships.
Um And so,
at what point does your client become your bestie and you pass them along to your supervisor to be their therapist instead that has happened to me multiple times.

(24:30):
And,
you know,
I think that's um uh both class conscious and collapse aware and postmodern and anti patriarchal.
Ok.
I went long into that one.
I'm sorry.
No,
that's OK.
Carmen.
Um As you were talking,
I just,
the thing that was coming is that,
you know,
my mom,

(24:52):
my family,
they're from IEC they grew up in village,
right?
What would be a village and trading close to the earth?
And people had dual relationships all the time.
Like so it's actually also an indigenous way of being when like the person that you go for this healing might it'll still be your uncle or your your aunt or,

(25:18):
or relative or someone or your school teacher even.
So these dual relationships exist.
And I think also,
you know,
when we look at the medical industrial complex,
what the root of that is,
is the obser observing um bodies specifically bodies of African folks as less than human.

(25:48):
So there is this observer quality to the lack of attachment,
right?
So if you're only going to be able to see someone as less than human,
then you have to detach feelings of love means like,
oh that person are they human?
And you know,
that leads to many more complexities.

(26:09):
So I also think having this is like a um re indigenous decolonial approach to these,
this,
this metal,
these metal skills,
anything else Carmen or should we move on to voice?
I just wanna acknowledge that there's resonance bubbling up in the chat and I,

(26:32):
I hear you folks and I,
what you just said to res brilliant.
Thank you for saying that.
Yeah.
So I'm not able to see the chat until later just because of the way my screen is set up.
But thanks for um saying that.
Um so the next number,
the second is voice.

(26:53):
So voice is our ability to track no,
both verbally or and non verbally.
And I think it's also the ability to track um assuredness.
So maybe someone is like,
no,
like is that a real no or a real?

(27:15):
Yes,
it's our ability to track both the no and the yes um verbally and non verbally and having creating a no pressure environment to perform at wellness,
to perform at satisfaction or to mo or to be the model student,

(27:36):
client teacher,
you know,
uh teacher,
student,
patient practitioner just dismantling that.
And really if you are someone who is a helper who is a facilitator,
who is a care provider,
one of I or at least I believe in my humble opinion is that one of our,

(28:03):
the word is not,
it's like duty is not the word I'm looking for.
But the one of the things that we stand for is to be the amplifier of unheard voices and that includes the voices of the the body,
right,
including the the physical bodies and other bodies.

(28:23):
So land is body and that also extends to nonhuman bodies.
So nature,
nature,
right?
Animals,
et cetera,
as well as the dead.
Um And so oftentimes,

(28:46):
what I have found is that Carmen modeled it in the beginning when she named,
what else is in the room?
Is that what's in the room is not shared or said?
And oftentimes what is in the room are also the systems that seek to oppress that seek to marginalize.

(29:06):
And what's also in the room is sometimes emotions,
the emotions that are not able to be named or the emotions that cause great discomfort,
grief,
shame,
um rage.
So sometimes those are in the room and they're silenced.

(29:27):
So as a practitioner were also the voices of being able to name,
to name the systems,
to name the emotions as well,
Carmen.
Yeah.
And I think as pardon me,
as um animists,
as witches,

(29:48):
as um earth based spirituality practitioners,
we are so well positioned and I,
you know,
I say this so much and I'll say it again and again because we are moving through the world in a relational way,
you know,
we are,
we are moving through the world,
recognizing all the different kinds of people who are not human people.

(30:12):
And if a if a therapeutic practitioner gets flustered or feels uncomfortable having a system named or the dead named or,
you know,
if they have to always frame it as intergenerational trauma instead of just like ancestral legacy or something,
if they have to frame it in kind of a psychoanalytic way,

(30:35):
I'm highly suspicious of that.
Or at least I shouldn't say suspicious.
I would say that indicates to me that there will be a very,
um,
soon we will hit the limit of how far my healing can go with this person.
Um So many,
and we get this even just from the Ace studies,
right?
So many of the traumas are um uh veiled through time and taboo and social scorn.

(31:04):
And so I believe that we're going to a therapeutic practitioner so that we can find a space where we can talk about these things that are socially taboo.
And so if you say collapse and they try to say,
you know,
like,
ok,
you have an anxiety disorder or something instead of being able to just recognize what's going on.

(31:26):
Um We're gonna hit the limit of what we can do pretty quickly because actually the role of the therapeutic practitioner is to amplify the voices of the unheard and that includes the conditions and the dead and everything that's in the room.
So,
um I,
I just think that somebody who is um out with their animus or um folk healing or um witchcraft based spirituality is probably a good bet for,

(32:01):
for being able to help us with um giving voice to the silenced.
Yeah.
And I think,
um,
one of the things that you were talking about Carmen is how there's this superficiality,

(32:22):
psychological superficiality.
I don't know if you wanna share more about that.
Yeah.
I just,
I think that there is a tendency to process emotions on the mental level and that,
uh,
if we're getting too much into jargon,
we can't just,

(32:43):
like,
call the thing what it is and we can't,
um,
talk about those things.
It just means that our healing is gonna stay at that level,
you know,
at a kind of a mental understanding.
And I,
hey,
no shade on insight,
psychoeducation and insight is really important.
Um But the voice needs to go down to the body and once it hits the body,

(33:06):
hopefully it's gonna extend to the land and to the other things that are in the room that are not embodied as human that are not incarnated in that way that I believe are amongst us all the time.
So,
yeah,
thanks.
Yeah,
I um as you were talking,
I was like,
maybe it's my um triple Scorpio in my chart.
I was like,

(33:26):
but i it's like,
I'm always fascinated by what is silenced,
who is not heard in this moment or what is not heard in this moment.
So that's,
you know,
just a question I ask myself like,
what is not being said or what is being said at the below the surface totally.

(33:48):
Who hasn't been invited to this conversation even maybe we don't right away.
But at some point,
we got to acknowledge that there's others outside the door that want into our therapy session,
you know.
Mhm mhm Yeah.
I,
I just had this um image as you were talking about like the table,

(34:11):
the the the concept of the seat at the table.
But the image that I had is like there are literal bodies that are holding up the table.
There are literal bodies that have made up the table and whose bodies are those.
And that's typically the folks who are silenced,

(34:32):
you know,
it just came really clearly.
I just wanted to share that.
Um So we're going to move on um to the third meta skill which is choice and consent.
Uh One of the things I always say is like we live in a society that doesn't honor consent that doesn't even know what consent is.

(35:00):
And I think that speaks to doesn't know what boundaries are.
I feel like I say,
for myself,
I didn't know what boundaries are for a long time.
And I think it caused a lot of,
you know,
pain in many different ways,
but it's not our fault.
And it's uh an important meta skill,

(35:20):
especially when we're talking about um working with folks in a healing context or in a therapeutic context or in a helper context.
Um And consent and choice needs to be reaffirmed frequently.
So just because someone says yes or gives consent.

(35:42):
It doesn't mean it's consent every single time.
So it really needs to be reaffirmed frequently.
And the consent also extends to beyond just the human that maybe or the humans that are in your um in your space,
it extends to the land,

(36:04):
it extends to the dead,
it extends to the nonhuman forms.
Um Where,
where's consent?
Um Herman,
do you wanna share that story about Maya Angelou or?
Yeah,
sure.
I'll,
I'll work up to it a little bit.
So as a person on a healing journey,

(36:27):
that can actually be harder than it sounds because if you don't know what your own preferences are,
it's hard to,
to know if it's a yes or a no.
Right.
And so I think uh any kind of healing environment needs to give you the space to change your mind,
like pretty explicitly.
Well,
let's just try this out.
And if it doesn't work,
you know,
or here's not just this or that,

(36:48):
here's a range of options you can do.
So that's part of our responsibility on our own healing journey is to start to really attune to our preferences um so that we can offer a,
a fairly robust,
yes or no.
Um And this of course,
includes extending to the nonhumans that we've been talking about who are always part of our healing journey.

(37:14):
And again,
whether you want to frame this as intergenerational trauma or as ancestral generation or as um you know,
magic or,
or whatever we are working with um others who also have agency.
So,
you know,
if you are.
So,
I've,
I've been in sessions where,
um well,

(37:34):
let me back up.
This is one of the reasons why I encourage folks to um do a,
a slow and embodied land acknowledgment before we get too deep into a healing practice because it's important to recognize our positionality and it's important to proceed with consent and we can't do that unless we're listening.

(37:55):
And so I've been in session with uh people who like,
I'm thinking specifically of,
I was with a woman who pretty much shares my social identity.
She's like an older um white,
you know,
kind of middle class hetero woman.
And we were doing competent protector work bringing in somebody who was um powerful and nurturing and who was going to be kind of a mother figure for her,

(38:22):
given what she was coming to me for.
And so I said,
who would you call in as competent protector?
And she said,
oh,
I always work with Maya Angelou and I was a little taken aback.
I was like,
as your mother figure.
And she said,
yeah,
and I was like,
ok,
have,
have you asked her if she wants to occupy that role for you?

(38:43):
And she's like,
what do you mean?
And I was like,
well,
you know,
like,
I can see some problems with asking a black woman to nurture you um in that kind of way where you're feeling like,
you know,
especially shame around whiteness and stuff.
Like I was like,
I can see some problems here and that's not to judge,

(39:05):
but it's like,
you know,
Maya Angelou in spirit is um a public figure.
So maybe this works,
but without explicitly asking,
I as a practitioner,
I'm not comfortable proceeding with that.
And so I said,
well,
let's just ask and see how this goes and we were able to see that like that,

(39:30):
that wasn't super comfortable.
It,
it fortunately went really well with this particular client.
Um If you're coming to me,
you're probably gonna be open to like a little bit of redirect.
It might not have worked with everyone.
And,
you know,
we might have had to talk about like my agency as a practitioner and what I'm comfortable with as a white practitioner.

(39:52):
Um But it,
I think just bears repeating that uh choice and consent should also be extended to the trees.
You're working with the horse,
you're working with like all of those that you're working with in real life or in your imaginable life in your magical life.
Um It's just a practice.
We should be living all the time and there isn't a difference between our healing journey or our spiritual path and our social,

(40:21):
you know,
justice work.
So it's a practice we should be doing all the time and the role of the therapeutic practitioners to keep reminding of that.
It's interesting,
Carmen,
as you were talking,
I was thinking about something that might be helpful is to really think about,
well,

(40:41):
if this person were in the room or if this being were in the room,
would I be able to even ask for consent or are we,
are there complexities within the relationship?
But within the positionality that where I'm like,
oh,
I maybe shouldn't ask this person.

(41:02):
And also what are the emotions that are underneath,
right?
That um that need to be reckoned with,
right?
Because you know,
I didn't know the piece that your client is really working around whiteness,
which can always be in the room.

(41:23):
But um but working with that piece of course,
that there's a complexity when it's like,
oh,
you're going to ask uh a black woman to be your mother.
Yeah,
there is the complexity there.
Yeah.
Just thinking anything to add.

(41:43):
Well,
yeah,
just like you said,
it's like it's not an automatic.
No,
it's that we ha we we don't assume that what we are doing in our own internal life isn't shaping us and shaping the field and,
and shaping our attitudes and our like it's a meta skill because it's like this is the overall stance that helps you execute the skill.

(42:07):
And so it's like you might have a lot of intersectional analysis and having the meta skill of consent helps you execute.
Yes.
Now,
I could be in right relationship with this black iconic figure offering me some maternal nurturing saying it's OK.
I fucked up or whatever,
you know,

(42:27):
like maybe that could work.
But the meta skill is being able to um uh make that an ongoing practice,
an embodied practice so that you can execute that skill of this particular therapeutic intervention in a good way.
So it's not that it's off the table,
it's not a protocol,

(42:47):
it's a,
it's a stance.
Yeah.
Mhm.
Yeah.
And depending on what the who the practitioner is,
it might be off the table for them,
right?
It could be off the table.
It was this close to being off the table for me,
you know,
and then we worked it out totally.
Yeah.
Thanks for saying that.

(43:10):
So we're going to move on um to the next,
I'm getting to see what number we're up for the fourth,
right?
Fourth,
which is agency,
agency.
So agency is the discernment for right fit,

(43:33):
not only the right fit the right timing,
the right capacity and one of the things that we were talking about before this was that sometimes folks might want to play out power dynamics that are unresolved within the container of client practitioner.

(43:55):
Um And that could all get that could be trauma and that could be a corrective experience.
Um And it's really important in terms of agency to,
to keep in mind that the client is actually the person um that is steering the relationship,
they're steering what the plan is.

(44:18):
Um,
if you are a practitioner,
the treatment plan,
they're steering the relationship.
So,
it's also going back to a couple of,
you know,
uh,
when we were talking about dual relationships,
I think that speaks to the relationship too.
Um,
how that moves.
You're not like,
oh,

(44:38):
all of a sudden I'm the practitioner and I'm going to make these choices.
Um,
yeah,
I guess there could be some co choices in there.
But anyway,
I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole right here there and also the pace.
So the,
the client is the one that is steering the relationship,

(44:58):
the course of action or treatment plan as well as the pace.
Um And as the practitioner,
you are the one that's tracking and you're the one that's making the recommendations based on what you're seeing,
what you're observing.
Um And from your experience and it has to be within the scope of what it is that you do.

(45:25):
Um Char what do you have to say?
Yeah,
I mean,
I think agency also helps us as like clients be empowered to say,
I don't,
this isn't really working for me,
you know,
or like,
yeah,
I get your treatment plan and like,
I'm willing to try it,

(45:45):
but I also,
I'm,
this isn't working now.
So there's,
again,
this can be like a thing that we have to learn because we've been so shaped by this top down kind of power over Western approach to healing where there's an expert and there's a subject,
you know,
like,
whereas this,
especially in the age of the internet,

(46:07):
it's like we have so much more access to um uh communities that are sharing information,
lived experience of other people.
And so there's just a lot more data for us.
Um And so we as clients,
I think need to uh approach healing relationships.
Um Recognizing that like,

(46:28):
yep,
this person has expertise and like you're going to them because you're hoping to benefit from that.
But ultimately,
like you need to be um responsible for kind of steering the ship.
And as a practitioner,
we have to lay down our own need to control.

(46:49):
And again,
this kind of goes back even with dual relationships,
our own need to be needed,
you know,
like we need to lay that down and go like,
yeah,
I have all of this expertise and I have all this experience and this is what I think is gonna happen.
But ultimately,
I'm going at their pace and um and if that doesn't work for me or if I feel like,
you know what this is moving beyond my scope,

(47:11):
I need to have um a really great network of peers that I can,
you know,
relate uh out to that kind of thing.
Um But II,
I think that,
yeah,
especially as an attachment practitioner,
people are coming to me a lot with like power dynamic issues and like this is an opportunity for us to work it out.

(47:34):
And I as a practitioner have to recognize my own limits,
my own capacity and say,
I,
I don't think this is good for me,
you know,
like I'm skillful,
but I don't have capacity for this right now or I,
I am willing to do this to this with you to this point.
Um Because yeah,
we wanna make sure that we're not just reenacting the trauma over and over again.

(47:57):
So,
um it does take a lot of nuance and discernment.
Do you feel like another break?
Yeah,
sure.
Let's do it.
Ok.
Everyone.
So feeling your feet feeling your seat.
Mm Looking for your stable structures and I would also recommend like a little twist here.

(48:20):
So looking behind you again,
kind of recognizing like,
ok,
I might be in unfamiliar territory with some of the things we're talking about,
but I'm actually in a very familiar place right now.
There's like nothing chasing me and just checking again.
Like,
have you had enough?

(48:42):
Are you at capacity?
Do you feel like relief full?
Because if that's the case,
maybe you're still listening but you put headphones on and start doing your dishes,
you know,
you start tasking or you walk around a little bit or you just recognize,
you know,
you've had enough and maybe you just want to listen to the recording later.

(49:05):
It's totally up to you.
We're gonna move into the next four.
And this one,
the fifth one is humility,
social historical and cultural humility.
And I just alluded to it.
I,
but there's so much to say about this about,

(49:26):
you know,
we we can bring in kind of the biopsychosocial um aspect.
Here,
there are different models of trying to bring in some cultural literacy and cultural humility.
But um what I think is really important is that the practitioner is filtering clients for good fit and holding those power dynamics like front and center.

(49:53):
And in order to do that in a good way,
you need to have a network of peers who are in different positions socially than you.
So you have to have a network of peers that you can refer out to who are not just like you helpful white ladies who are middle class,
you know,

(50:13):
do gooders or whatever.
OK.
We need to have um lived experience of relationships across difference.
Uh And so it's not enough just to have a statement of Black Lives Matter or,
you know,
land Acknowledgments or whatever you need to.
And if you don't have this,

(50:35):
you set yourself a time horizon of a few years where you develop some genuine relationships with other practitioners who are different than you.
Um So that if you have a client who comes to you and is like,
hey,
I wanna work with you,
but there's like some pretty major difference that you're like I think this is actually pretty central to your healing.

(50:55):
But you can say,
let me help connect you and if you don't know them personally,
then you at least start developing a database and like support people.
Um So the humility is that you're not gonna be right for everyone.
And,
and I think as a client,
if you bring up with a practitioner that like they're missing the mark or they say something that's just like they're not seeing me,

(51:20):
you trust that sooner than later.
I know how hard that is.
Um when you just don't have a lot of options.
Um But I guess that's all I could go deeper into this.
What would,
what else would you say about to?
Yeah,
this is a,
a big one and I feel like it's also connected to the next one.

(51:41):
They're really connected um that we're going to talk about.
Um Yeah,
I think it's really important to have a network of folks that you can refer to that like Carmen,
I'm just gonna be repeating the same thing,
but that are different and that is part of having cultural humility.

(52:02):
You're not for everyone.
I'm not for everyone.
Carmen isn't for everyone.
And that is OK.
And um what actually came up when you were talking Carmen was that the thing that can really stand in the way from us having this level of humility is capitalism um because our own survival can come up of like,

(52:24):
oh,
I can't or I'm not able to for whatever reason.
And,
um,
so I think one of the things that I have done is just really having trust and really putting the focus on,
um,
the other person.

(52:45):
Right.
And once,
if you're,
if your underlying need is capital,
you know,
is capitalism,
like we all are in capitalism but trying as much as possible to be with someone else's humanity and looking and being with their humanity is a way to have.

(53:08):
I think more cultural um and social historical humi humility of like,
oh who would be the best person for this or you know,
or maybe I don't know and I can take them,
steer them in this direction.
Mhm mhm Totally.
So the next one is you need to have an analysis of power rank and privilege and that's just period full stop.

(53:37):
We don't even need to say anything else.
You need to have an understanding of power rank and privilege,
particularly in a therapeutic context and beyond just are we exploiting,
you know,
our,
our need to be needed with clients or are we because of capitalism?
We need for them to keep coming back to us?
We recommend that,

(53:58):
you know,
it's not,
that's the basic ass stuff that we should just know as humans,
but patriarchy needs like to be told.
Um But beyond that,
having a recognition of up power down power,
intersectionality,
positionality.
This is a lifelong and very nuanced um undertaking.

(54:21):
But if you ha if like,
if your practitioner hasn't even started,
like,
again,
you're,
we're gonna hit the upper limit of our capacity to heal with them very,
very quickly because it,
it really should be stated,
the forces of oppression in every single session.
That's like a main part of what the practitioner should be doing is pointing to the systems of oppression that are underlying the client's challenges and that it's not actually their fault and that they won't be able to just like,

(54:54):
heal themselves out of this.
Um And in order to know if your practitioner has that analysis,
you just ask them,
what are your thoughts on how patriarchy plays out in hetero couples?
Like literally just ask them a question with the word racism in it and see if they get flustered or kind of try to avoid it.

(55:19):
Like,
are they a slippery fish or do they kind of light up and be like,
oh my God,
yes,
I see this all the time.
And I think we should,
you know,
so they don't have to be particularly um academic about it,
but if it makes them uncomfortable,
I would run away.
That's,
that's,

(55:39):
that's all I have to say about that.
I guess the one thing I would also say is like a good resource would be um right.
Use of Power Institute.
I think it is uh with Cedar Barstow and it's like kind of dated but there's a couple of good books that Cedar Barstow,
I'll put it in.
The chat has written that they essentially was written so that,

(56:00):
um,
psychotherapist would stop having sex with their clients.
It's like,
you know,
it's like pretty basic stuff but the rest of us,
uh,
who think that's an obvious.
No,
no.
Um,
could also learn about how about up power and down power dynamics and power over and,

(56:20):
you know,
abuse of power under and those kinds of things.
Uh What else would you say about having an analysis?
Yeah,
I mean,
power is another thing I think when it comes to consent to what we just talked about boundaries and that's something I always think about,
about what,

(56:41):
what is,
what is the power that we have?
And I think um it's really knowing what is the power that we have because also I'm thinking even the act of naming um something all the time depending on your clients or identity that can be triggering for them,

(57:03):
right?
That can be too much,
too fast,
too soon,
you know,
that can be.
Um So if it,
and it really this is where intersectionality and all of that plays out because um if you are a white person or in a white body and let's say you do have a client that is in a BPO uh black indigenous personal color body.

(57:31):
Um There are nuances there,
like there are nuances there um of what needs to be named.
Now,
if you're just,
if you're,
you know,
a white person and you're working with a white person,
I think it could be named all the time.
I,
I do.

(57:51):
Um,
I,
I think it could be named all the time.
Um,
yeah,
there is more,
I wanna say I could say about that,
but I don't want to go down that rather hole.
You'll have to just come to your training when you do your daycare,
do facilitation training at the same time.
Yeah,
I totally hear you.
Um Yeah,

(58:12):
and I would say so much of who I notice this come up with is I'll be working with women,
women of color and white women who don't realize that they are in an abusive relationship with white partners.
I will say I've had several clients who are in mixed race relationships and do not understand how um racism and patriarchy are expressing themselves in their relationship.

(58:37):
And that's a lot.
And so it takes a few years to like come along to be like some of these things are not couples therapy problems,
you know,
like and so yeah,
I can name it and then just have to kind of hold space for that because um capitalism keeps us tethered very often to um perpetrators of systems of abuse and abuse of power,

(59:08):
you know.
So yeah,
you're,
you're totally right.
This also segues really nicely into predicament.
So um having an awareness of predicament.
I think there's again,
tons of places we could go with this,
but the one that I wanna lift up,
we haven't yet is around ableism.

(59:29):
Anybody who lives with chronic illness is uh having firsthand constant experience of the ableism in the medical industry.
It's like astonishing how many doctors,
how many physiotherapists like are,
are,
are so incredibly ablest.
And um so as practitioners,
we need to be able to recognize we're not a bad healer if somebody's not improving and that our egos are not here to be fed by clients getting better.

(59:59):
Um And that we need to be able to hold this nuance as a client as a,
as a person on a healing journey between wanting to get better and efforting to improve and relieve symptoms and also this radical acceptance of realities that is the tension that well,
all of us will hold as we age.

(01:00:21):
Um But it's behooves us to recognize it now.
And I think especially in a world of COVID with like episodic disability becoming more and more of a thing.
I'm really hoping that we can bring in this conversation about ableism in the healing journey.
Um And you know,
we,
when we were chatting about this choice,
we,

(01:00:41):
we both kind of said like neither of us identify as healers,
but it's like,
I'm like,
I'm just like,
what in the Scottish tradition would be like the good wife,
you know,
like gudwife,
the good wife is just like a lady who knows things like and you know,
like help the community.
Um So,

(01:01:03):
you know,
being able to lay down ego about whether or not we are healing or whether or not our modality is the,
the one that works or like just laying down our attachment to.
Um there being some kind of outcome I think is really important.
Um especially.
Well,
anyway,
I,
I want to send it to you.

(01:01:26):
Yeah,
I think um yeah,
that term healer,
it,
it means something else.
I understand we're having this conversation and it's like there are these phrases that are used so that you can position yourself within capitalism because we do live within that.

(01:01:46):
And yet when we take it out of the Western context,
it has a very different meaning.
It doesn't have the same meaning.
Um So just like you were saying the good wife,
it would be called the SAJ F,
right?
That's what it would be called.
The or translation is like the sage woman um or sage person or the medicine keeper or the grill.

(01:02:13):
I mean,
there it,
these are really the traditional names but within this context,
things have to be packet,
you know,
are forced to be packaged um in a specific way.
And I,
one of something that I wrote,
I don't remember when I wrote it,
maybe it was,

(01:02:34):
was it a year ago?
Um But I wrote around that we are all on the spectrum of disability and,
and that,
I don't know,
I feel like a lot of people did not like that because it brings us closer to death,
right?
And it's also around in the,

(01:02:57):
in the death phobic society,
we are in a death phobic society.
Um And I like what I like to think of it as a as holding space and really releasing the need to fix and le um really releasing,

(01:03:22):
needing to be like the Almighty God goddess it it and actually what's coming up is like really knowing the right order of things.
Hm The right order of things and knowing the right order of things is um there is a macro and a micro and we're part of this larger ecosystem that we're unable to see all of the different threads at the same time and it's humility.

(01:03:52):
Mhm mhm Bring that in.
Yeah,
in,
in um collapse 101 in the numinous network.
We,
we talk constantly about predicaments and how like we do stuff because it feels good to do and if it improves things great.
Um But also we release the need for that to be the metric.

(01:04:15):
So the process has to become the um the the reward,
you know,
so it's like we do healing,
we go to therapy.
Oh Did you see the Kerry Washington thing where she's like I go to therapy because it feels like good for you too and be witnessed and like,
you know,
and it's like,
yes that we,
we do our healing journey because the process in itself is rewarding or joyful or pleasurable somehow.

(01:04:39):
Um And an outcome is great,
but especially as practitioners,
we need to release the need for that to be some kind of um check mark that we've,
you know,
achieved.
The other thing we talk about in collapse.
Uh 101 in the numinous network is enoughness.
And that's the final meta skill that we're sharing today.
So this is about as a,

(01:05:00):
as a practitioner,
as a person on the healing journey,
orienting towards enoughness is like there is no total safety.
There's no like feeling of like I am safe,
there could be safeness or safe enough.
Um And,
and also that you are,

(01:05:20):
you are doing enough,
you are,
you are enough and as a practitioner or as a just person trying to live through this world,
you know,
we're doing enough.
And so there's,
there's no like pristine prior state of health and there's no pristine after state of healed,

(01:05:41):
right?
It's just like what is enough.
Um And so enoughness is very much AAA skill of resistance against capitalism where you are never enough,
you're never doing enough.
There's always more you could do,
you could always feel better,
you could always whatever.
And I think being able to tune into what is enough,

(01:06:01):
what is safe enough?
What isn't?
I've done enough.
I am enough.
I'm I'm all of that is,
is adjacent to capacity.
And we talked about burnout.
And I think one of the ways that as practitioners,
we can,
um we can potentially avoid or just like relieve ourselves of the tendencies that lead us into burnout is to recognize that actually.

(01:06:30):
And this is so sad to say in a way,
but the times are so desperate,
people are so unsupported that we can do so little and it means so much.
So,
our presence is enough.
You know,
our compassion is enough,
our consistency is enough,
whatever it is that is like our kind of little thing that we're good at it is enough that creating a validating environment is enough.

(01:06:57):
So um yes,
we learn all the skills,
yes,
we develop excellence or,
or,
you know,
competence.
But really,
ultimately,
you know,
the world is in a desperate times and um one of the ways we can like kind of take the gas off and unhook from capitalism is to not try to save everyone or,

(01:07:19):
you know,
um it's like Mary Oliver says,
determined to save the only life you could save,
you know,
which is,
which was your own.
What else would you say about enough m Therese and then I'll let you take us into questions or wherever you want to take it.
Yeah,
as you were talking,
um what kept coming up is yesterday,

(01:07:39):
I was leading uh AAA New Moon and um I pulled out a card and from Trisha,
Hersey's rest deck,
which I love by the way.
And it said,
and the card just said,
I am not lazy,
I am not lazy.

(01:08:00):
And I just want to really lift up um Trisha's work because,
you know,
she talks so much about grind culture and this enoughness is definitely linked to grind culture,
um burnout culture,
white supremacist,

(01:08:21):
capitalist patriarchy culture of not being enough and not being enough in ourselves as you know,
practitioners um space holders,
um therapeutic helpers.
Um And then that translate in,
translates into our clients that there's a threat there,

(01:08:46):
right?
So I think so much of everything that we also spoke about including enoughness,
it really starts with as the practitioner doing the work to on those things ourselves as much as we can consistently,
which is why I think both Carmen and I have like ongoing containers.

(01:09:08):
Um And the reason why is because we need places where we can just land in enoughness and it's not necessarily about constantly healing,
but just having places where we're able to land in enoughness,

(01:09:29):
safe enough,
not complete safety,
not this pristine purity culture of what you know,
the purity culture goes into like,
oh it has to be completely safe,
safe enough,
good enough,
doing enough,
you know,
enough,
you know,
and knowing what is enough when it's enough.

(01:09:50):
Um I think is is so important but that card,
you know,
everyone yes was like,
oh my God,
we've been red,
we have been read because we were talking about um the clip season and how it's important to just be rooted and,
and to,
um release having to do and like,

(01:10:12):
oh,
I'm setting my intentions,
um really going into nurturance and what nourishment that you need and really that laziness came up and that often stands in our way of enoughness and in our client's way of enoughness.
So that's all I have to say about that.
Oh,
of course,
there's so much more to say.

(01:10:33):
Uh But that would be more appropriate for a different container.
I think this has been a lot for now.
And I know there are many of you wanting to know when does the training start?
How much is it?
How long is it,
et cetera?
Both Therese and I are seasonal people in the sense that uh both of us are winding down.
We're downshifting into the darkest time of the year right now.

(01:10:56):
But more will be announced uh closer to the new year.
You can go right now to Teresa's website and sign up for her newsletter.
So you are the first to know though we might cater perhaps to different audiences based on our positionality,
both Therese and I hold anti capitalist values.
And um we will try to make them as accessible as possible in terms of pricing.

(01:11:20):
And um yeah,
speaking for myself,
my training will be specifically around facilitation and holding space for online groups.
So you should be a person who,
you know,
has something that you are running already.
And this could also apply to folks running in person groups.
So this is for experience facilitators.
Um If you like the way we do it in the numinous network,

(01:11:44):
this training will be about going deeper into the rationale of why we do it the way we do it.
So you understand how to customize that manner of approach for your modality and the people you're already working with.
So it's not going to be a training for people who are new to facilitation.
Um That is a phase two that will be later on after there's been a few intakes of this um introduction.

(01:12:12):
So I'll provide links in the show notes um which you will find in your podcast player or at Numinous podcast.com.
So you can be on my newsletter and therese's newsletter and be the first to know when those trainings come up.
Now,
back to what I was talking about way back in the beginning where I said in my listener,
shout out,

(01:12:33):
I have something else.
I wanna add around the meta skills of healing.
So I would like to thank,
this is the part where I do a listener,
shout out to people who've left reviews in whatever your podcast player is.
It's usually the Apple podcast apps.
So I got this review.
It's a three star review and it's from Anna Oaxaca.

(01:12:53):
The title was um too many white Western perspectives.
Anna Oaxaca writes.
I really liked this podcast at first and had hopes for the purported critical intersectional approach.
I really appreciated the awareness of Carmen and many of our guests in terms of naming explicitly the nuances of identity perspective and knowledge.

(01:13:15):
Some episodes have been a joy to listen to.
However,
after nearly a dozen episodes,
I'm sick of listening to Western perspective After Western perspective of doing two things.
Number one guests speaking and claiming to be the authority on a perspective or subject that originates in indigenous or other traditions and no credit is recognized and or explaining knowledge and perspectives that are secondary to their own culture.

(01:13:43):
Please get more guests on who can speak from non Western understandings and knowledge without the white interpreter.
This really makes a difference.
The world is a huge place and the lack of diverse guests is seriously creating a bias and mistakes and errors of interpretation.
Number two guests referencing garbage so called academics and experts whose work has been shown thoroughly and resoundingly by actual experts to be fiction and or manipulated and misrepresented facts.

(01:14:13):
Ie Holy blood,
holy grail,
some critical thinking and analysis is necessary and listeners should be prepared to do their own research to read original sources and thinkers.
So I just wanna state I'm totally aware of the power differential and I've been like very back and forth on like,
should I should I bring this up?

(01:14:36):
Um Because while yes reviews like this do have some power to derail growth and reach of my show,
the differential clearly tips in my favor since I'm the white western woman at the mic.
And as such,
it behooves me to listen to this feedback more than five star reviews.
This is a good review by a thoughtful person.

(01:14:57):
So Ana Oaxaca,
I would love to hear your feedback after hearing this episode.
If you're listening,
you might have already decided this wasn't for you.
Um But if you would like to share any more with me,
you can reach me by writing to customer service at Carmen spaniolo.com.

(01:15:17):
Um I would like to give you a way to respond to uh this episode and also I would like to give you something for your time if you want.
Um And yeah,
maybe you'll never hear this because you've moved on,
but I want to say your words impacted me and they also excited me because they connect to something that it's been like kind of kicking around in my brain for a while that I've been wanting to talk about on this show.

(01:15:41):
Um And it feels to me like it really relates to today's topic and your feedback,
like I see connection there.
So I'm a bit hesitant to link them to your review because you're in the down power position and you're not here to respond to me.
So I want to say to everyone listening,
I hope you will listen in a reparative way because I feel like Anna Oaxaca's feedback and also this perspective,

(01:16:07):
I'm about to share does advance our aims around intersectionality and they work really well together.
Um OK,
so before I get actually more into the,
the part I want to share first,
I wanna say it makes total sense to me that a year of predominantly white voices is like really grueling for many listeners.
I also want to explain,

(01:16:27):
I did have five guests who had to cancel or decline or like postpone this year.
There's like a wide variety of reasons and they all were people of the global majority,
people of color,
people of culture.
And this is an example just like an everyday example of how people of the global majority are disproportionately impacted by systems of oppression.

(01:16:51):
Um And like,
you know,
when we look at the social determinants of health,
for instance,
I I see those impacts happening disproportionately just even in trying to line up,
you know,
two dozen guests this year.
Um The bo folks I know and that I really wanted to interview were like,

(01:17:12):
turns out really going through it this year.
Um And so,
yeah,
it just kind of sucked that uh I had,
I don't know,
I,
I usually try to learn up line up like 30 people and usually I can get 20 to 24 shows out a year,
but it isn't usually all the BPO folks who cancel.

(01:17:32):
Um but I will continue to follow up and pursue those guests and it may be too little,
too late for Ana Oaxaca.
But I,
I just,
well,
and if Ana Oaxaca,
if you are listening,
I would love for you to go through my archive because I have nearly 10 years of podcast episodes and the ones that are in interview format,
like the ones not where I'm not interviewing my husband,

(01:17:53):
let's say or,
or it's not just me about like 40% are with friends and colleagues who are people of the global majority and um do offer really important voices.
And I'm very sorry that uh this season just kind of ended up being lopsided um in that way,
it's really important to me.

(01:18:14):
Um So thank you for that.
The second thing I want to say is like,
it,
it's also really important to me in terms of guests who are white.
Um not citing lineage that,
that,
that's definitely not OK and not something I want to perpetuate.
So if it's not mentioned in the episode or show notes,

(01:18:35):
I wanna correct that I would genuinely appreciate the chance to connect those dots for people.
And um I wish these episodes were referenced so I could fix that because I am like racking my brain trying to think of a guest who position themselves as a,
as an expert without citing lineage.
I'm like thinking immediately,
I'm like,
oh,
well,
I did have that conversation with Annie about meditation,

(01:18:58):
but of course,
she was talking about Tibetan Buddhist meditation and we were talking about grappling with that as white people.
Anyway.
Yeah,
I'm just trying to think like at the very least,
we discussed the problematic aspects of being a white practitioner who's come to the realization of the problematic of positionality in our trainings.

(01:19:19):
And I always want to name that and uh offer repair.
So I will do better at making those lineage citations clearer,
going forward rather than simply just like linking to somebody's website.
I know everyone's busy.
So listeners don't always have time or the interest in doing their own research frankly,

(01:19:41):
I don't always either,
but because it is a stated value,
um I am going to try to be better at um connecting the dots and making those citations clearer.
So now the second part,
this is what is so interesting to me because it's like exactly pointing to something that I've been wanting to talk about.

(01:20:01):
And as I was bringing forward um this episode with Therese,
I was like,
oh my gosh,
this is another meta skill.
So um the second critique was about guests.
Oh,
well,
OK,
I wanna say like one thing and then I'll get into the,
the next meta skill I wanna offer as part of this um feedback.
But,
but just quickly the,

(01:20:22):
the,
the second critique in this review was about guests referencing garbage academics.
And then it mentioned Holy Blood,
holy grail.
I just want to clarify that neither I nor the guest of that episode.
Pita Finn was trying to position Henry Lincoln,
the author of that book as an academic or even in Dose's work.
Uh The context of that um mention was like I was trying to lift up the numerous synchronic events that Perdita had had,

(01:20:48):
that led to her fascination with Mary Magdalene.
And partly that's because I had had them too.
And also in France.
And so she in this anecdote,
we were describing how she was in France on a train.
And like this Rando ended up,
you know,
who pointed her to Mary Magdalene stuff ended up later becoming this public figure who sort of brought the like secret Jesus conspiracies to the public imagination and,

(01:21:17):
and Dan Brown picked that up anyway,
I'm sorry,
that came across as an endorsement.
I really didn't intend that.
So to be clear,
uh that was not an endorsement.
It isn't an endorsement.
I am not citing or recommending Holy Blood,
holy grail to anyone.
And so again,
thank you Ana Oaxaca for giving voice to your concerns there like specifically and also in general,

(01:21:40):
I am sorry,
I didn't make that more clear.
I will try to give more of a like critical listen before I press publish on stuff like that.
I can always like reinforce something in the outro like this OK.
Anyway,
but that piece got me thinking about something related that I've been wanting to make space for on the show.

(01:22:01):
And so again,
I just want to emphasize,
this is like not a message for or a jab at the person who gave me the three star review.
This is not even a direct response.
It's not intended to like bully or harass them or diminish their words.
I really do take that feedback seriously.
And,
and I had been feeling uneasy about like,

(01:22:21):
how just I was noticing like,
oh damn,
that person is canceled and like it,
I was noticing the lack of diversity this year and I'm glad someone called it out.
I feel like affirmed that.
Yes,
I was worried about this and it is troubling and I need to prioritize proper representation.
Um Yeah,
if I had like more people of color on my guest wish list,

(01:22:44):
then I wouldn't have encountered this problem.
So that's on me for being so insular and white.
So message received affirmed prioritized.
Um And I wanna fold this in as another metas skill of healing that feels related to healing wounds within the kind of bigger tent of justice or like how we as a wider community of people who care about intersectional feminism um can fold in and integrate feedback and yet still move forward together.

(01:23:16):
So my show,
this show,
the Newman podcast is billed as interesting conversations with everyday folks about the mysteries of life and like very rarely do I have a guest on who's an expert.
Like,
they might have written a book like Perdita Finn,
but it's like a spiritual memoir.
I did recently have Jen Lumen Land on about parenting beyond power.

(01:23:38):
She actually is an expert with like three master's degrees,
like one's in child psychology and another one's in education.
But that type of guest is very rare.
I invite folks on that.
I know or have some connection to who have a similar keen interest.
So maybe I follow them if I don't know them or I read their work.

(01:23:58):
Um And like,
maybe they've had success in their fields generally,
but I want to talk to them about their experiences as an everyday person who for some reason has done a deep dive or like brought forth some big work about a subject matter.
And that's why I end every interview even with experts or like the rare academic that I have on by asking about their grief and their rage.

(01:24:26):
I'm always,
I spend a lot of time kind of building a narrative arc and send them question prompts in advance.
So they know I'm going to ask them personal questions about who they are.
And,
and I want to know more.
Why did you become an expert in this,
even if they are an expert?
Um So I asked them about their grief and their rage and that also I hope has the effect of like humanizing and providing relatable content,

(01:24:57):
you know,
relatable material.
Like I,
I more than I'm not trying to help people optimize or live their life better or even really understand things I'm having interesting conversations about life.
So this reminds me of an old essay from 1997 by Eve Sedgwick.

(01:25:20):
And it's about reparative reading in academia.
So this is the meta skill.
It's not 100% applicable here,
but it's sort of adjacent.
And so it's something I return to a lot as I grow older in the digital age.
I'm not a digital nomad.
I'm generation X.
I'm 48.
And so I've,

(01:25:42):
I'm like a bridge,
right?
We're like a bridge generation.
So this essay written in 1997 was written before social media,
but I really feel like it was prescient.
Sedgwick was really onto something and when it comes to getting our information from podcasts,
you know,
in this time of rising populism and fascism,

(01:26:04):
like,
yeah,
we've got to be critical readers or in this case,
like critical listeners.
And also as we mature our relationships with social media including podcasts and we try to uplift marginalized voices,
try to amplify messages that may not be heard enough.
I feel like there's also kind of space here to remember what's called reparative reading or in this case,

(01:26:30):
reparative listening.
So it's a stance,
reparative reading.
I'm just gonna use reading as a term instead of just listening maybe I'll use them interchangeably anyway.
What sick was pointing to is that this stance of engaging reparative is fundamental.

(01:26:51):
It,
it,
for me,
it's absolutely critical to my work as a trauma recovery practitioner.
And so for this reason,
I think it's another meta skill of healing that terse and I didn't mention.
Um but I want to read an excerpt from a more recent essay I found which I appreciate because it was published in just 2023.

(01:27:11):
So it's like I think really showing this is still very relevant today and perhaps more than ever.
So in this essay that the author writes when we are reading to assess as when we mark peer review or examine,
we are required to use this paranoid reading strategy.

(01:27:32):
Quote,
the examiner doesn't know you and doesn't trust you.
That's a basic piece of advice.
I keep giving doctoral candidates over and over the purpose of assessment.
Reading is about forestalling pain.
Sedgwick is drawing on the analytic theory of Melanie Klein here.
But for stalling pain,
we want to stop bad things happening in research.

(01:27:55):
We don't want to give qualifications to people who shouldn't be trusted.
This is essential when it's essential,
but we are not always reading for assessment when I am reading for academic purposes.
Sometimes yes,
I am looking for gaps or cracks or issues,
but more often I am reading to understand what other people think I am looking for.

(01:28:19):
Interesting ways of tackling a problem or insightful ways to see a solution.
In those cases,
paranoid reading strategies don't help much when we are.
Shall we say again,
using Sedgwick on Klein seeking of pleasure,
seeking of pleasure when we are looking for good stuff to start reading from a position of looking for the potential pleasure has Sedgwick argues two implications.

(01:28:48):
One,
an empathetic view of the other as at once,
good,
damaged,
integral and requiring an eliciting love and care.
And second,
the often very fragile concern to provide the self with pleasure and nourishment in an environment that is perceived as not particularly offering them.

(01:29:13):
It is worth noting that at no point does reparative reading assume there are no gaps,
no issues,
no problems.
Instead,
it constitutes relationship between imperfect text and imperfect reader in which care is the defining modality and for which pleasure and nourishment are the defining goals.

(01:29:37):
I have been reading the drafts of doctoral candidates who were sitting right in front of me for over a decade now.
As an academic advisor,
writing coach or doctoral supervisor,
it is not hard to read their drafts with generosity.
They are sitting right there being nice people,
honestly struggling to get their research into writing.

(01:29:59):
I work hard to see how the research they are passionate about can be best reflected in the text.
I have no trouble being reparative,
supportive,
helpful in such circumstances.
But when I'm reading the work of senior established published scholars.
My reading strategies tend to be much more negative.

(01:30:20):
The best place to learn to read positively is though the same thing that helped me read student work positively,
I need to be there with others.
Having another person in the room also committed to generous reading challenges me to be more positive and interrupts my negative,
ungenerous assumptions.
So often uh how could they not include this obvious citation or?

(01:30:45):
Wow,
this feels really simplistic our gut feelings rather than measured judgments being judgmental rather than judicious.
Gets in the way of me seeing how scholars from other disciplines or stages of research are able to bring insights that I might miss in my rush to feel sophisticated or expert or to be honest,
clever.

(01:31:05):
Whenever I take a breath and look again,
I often find something to value in the writing.
Generous readings don't have to be purely positive readings.
Sometimes as I read generously,
I find something that pushes my thinking forward even though I don't agree with it or it isn't quite how I would approach it.
Generosity is about largesse,

(01:31:26):
about expansion,
about inclusion and thinking broadly and openly give space for better thinking.
And sometimes the article is just bad and I hate it.
Having someone to share my feelings with helps me to feel better.
In this case,
reading together is reparative,
not of the text,

(01:31:47):
but of ourselves.
Universities are often environments that do not particularly offer care or pleasure or nourishment and reading with others can be spaces where such care is made possible.
Ok,
so that's the end of that quote.
So I once again,
it just makes me think like,

(01:32:07):
thank you Anna Oaxaca for your three star review.
Like I genuinely appreciate it.
It genuinely made me go back through all my show notes and back through all my episodes and really be thoughtful and um it made me revisit this article and be like,
you know what I actually do think there's something valuable for me to say.

(01:32:32):
And I do think this is a meta skill.
Um And so I,
I thought your three star review was one of the most helpful things I've read in a long time.
So,
um anyway,
back to this essay,
I was reading,
the author goes on to describe how they read together in many ways,
sometimes in the same room with other people,
sometimes they're over Twitter.

(01:32:53):
You know,
it's like conversations online sometimes by posting on their blog and receiving comments from other people as listeners of the numinous podcast.
One of the ways we can like quote unquote read together is by posting our thoughts on Instagram or on tiktok.
I'm not on Facebook,
but you could also do it there with other people who might listen and of course,

(01:33:14):
you can post in the reviews of my show.
But I would ask that you remember this is a show about interesting conversations with everyday folks about the mysteries of life,
you know,
like that's the metric like,
and the mysteries are like,
what the fuck is happening?
You know,
like,
how did we get here mysteries that have no concrete answers,
right?
Like how do we manage?

(01:33:34):
Collapse?
What are you doing for your trauma healing?
How's your jo journey going with whiteness?
You know,
how's your experience as an indigenous planner unfolding?
You know,
like I'm talking to people who have a very high level of competence or thoughtfulness and a lot of social power in many ways.
And also it's podcast by me,

(01:33:56):
you know,
a real person who's like,
yes,
I've got training and attachment.
But what we're doing here really is like I pull out the innards of my marriage to explain why I needed training in somatic attachment.
You know,
I do have some expertise.
I do have social power and I do have responsibilities.
I say that very soberly,
you know,
I do have responsibilities and listeners do need to do their own research.

(01:34:19):
I talk about,
you know,
very serious themes.
But and I don't think research is actually the thing that will get us where I'm trying to go with this podcast.
That's why I bring in this article.
She's not saying go do better research,
right?
She's talking about a manner of approach.
So I'm aiming towards something else,

(01:34:43):
you know,
and it's something the thing I'm aiming at with this show or with my work it's something I'm even reluctant to name because it doesn't exist in this world anymore or yet.
And I as a white woman with a microphone,
I don't even feel I can adequately represent it.
But I know that like experts in research and critical reading isn't gonna get us the whole way of where I want to go.

(01:35:10):
It's not going to make us whole.
It's more in this other realm of reparative reading and the meta skills we're talking about in this episode and also in the collapse episode.
So folks who listened to my collapse episode,
which was episode 161 can see how influential Sedgwick's essay has been on me since I described there how landing safeness and satisfiability are two meta skills of collapse.

(01:35:36):
So I'll link to the article I quoted from,
it was written by Catherine Firth,
uh who is an academic guide for research writers at the University of Melbourne.
And it was posted on the Rutledge blog in uh July 2023 Rutledge.
You know them there,
they,
they publish a lot of um textbooks and stuff like that,
that they pu publish a lot of academic journals and things.

(01:35:59):
So one place we read together about the topics I'm talking about on this show is in the numerous network.
And like part of me was thinking,
oh,
maybe I should give Anna Oaxaca like a free month in the network.
So we can like read together.
But actually,
to be very honest,
it's like a very white space.
Only about I'd say 20%.
This is the last time I checked,

(01:36:20):
which was maybe six months ago,
but about 20% of our members are visibly bioc or like from the global majority.
And even though we have like a bipoc sanctuary space and guides to our people of color,
I just know it,
it does get tiring to be in white dominated healing spaces.
You know,
who offers something that centers people of the global majority is theres,

(01:36:44):
theres offers healing spaces for bo folks.
And of course,
I'm gonna put all her links in the show notes.
Um Anyway,
once again,
thank you,
Ana Oaxaca from Canada for inspiring this important discussion.
I would love to hear more.
I'd love to send you a thank you gift from my garden,
my own little witch apothecary if you're interested.
So please reach out if you have bandwidth to customer service at Carmen spagnola.com.

(01:37:09):
And um thanks for your review.
OK.
Finally,
this is the last call for Witches New Year happening on Saturday,
October 28th.
The online recordings are available immediately after each session.
They'll be available to stream for one week along with four recent podcast guests.
I'm getting cozy during the eclipse that day.

(01:37:29):
And uh we're learning all about the astrology of the year for 2024.
That's with Thea Anderson plus the tarot card of the year ancestral veneration and more Um I'm super delighted to be able to continue conversations.
Uh Yeah,
with the,
as I mentioned with Shawna Janz Sophie Macklin and Terran Airan.

(01:37:52):
It,
it's just,
it's gonna be super great.
Plus I'm celebrating the one year anniversary of my book,
The Spirited Kitchen that day.
Plus that day is my birthday.
I'm turning 48.
Whoa,
I'm almost 50 hooray.
Come hang out with me at my party.
I'm doing exactly what I would want to be doing on my birthday is like diving into um witchy stuff.

(01:38:15):
Tickets are just $50 Canadian for all seven sessions with a sliding scale pricing.
Get your tickets now at Carmen spagnola.com Carmenspagnol A until next time.
Take care.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Nikki Glaser Podcast

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}TNP219 The Metaskills of Healing with Thérèse Cator