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March 15, 2024 51 mins

Kelly & Chip talk to psychotherapist and author, Terri Cole, about what may be their most "daring" and "purposeful" challenge this year....learning to set and hold boundaries. Terri's book, Boundary Boss: The Essential Guide to Talk True, Be Seen, and (Finally) Live Free gives easy changes and action steps that you can take in your life to change the way you relate to others, your career or just your own life in general and start living a truly authentic life that you love. She gives listeners three specific tips on how to set a boundary that have both Kelly and Chip taking notes and explains how to be a clear communicator. 
"It all starts with - I'd like to make a simple request..." 
She is also giving Velvet's Edge listeners a FREE gift with her Boundaries and Codependency Guide Here: boundaryboss.me/velvet 
"People get codepency all wrong, I have clients who are the most high functioning, self sufficient people who shake their heads no when I tell them what they are dealing with is codependency. They simply can't fathom that, but that's what it is....high functioning codependency."  
Website: https://www.terricole.com

Socials: @terricole

Follow Kelly: @velvetsedge 

Follow Chip: @chipdorsch

Email: theedge@velvetsedge.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Chip, Hello, Are you as excited for this conversation as me?

Speaker 2 (00:07):
I am. I'm also nervous because I feel like I'm
going to find out some really bad habits of my.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Like how you're even worse than you thought at boundaries.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
But that's where you grow, right.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah, I mean we think you and I talk about
this a lot. One of the main things we love
about having this podcast is that we get to actually
come on and talk to people who really admire, like
experts in different fields. And also it's like the greatest
teacher of all time because we're getting basically free therapy. Yeah.

(00:39):
So today we are so excited because we have the
Boundary Boss Terry Cole here. She is a psychotherapist and
author of Boundary Boss, The Essential Guide to Talk, True,
Be Seen, and Finally Live Free.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Hi Terry, Well, hello people, how are y'all?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
We are sold to you here? Chip and I equally
talk about this, but we're both just have really been
on a journey, I would say, the past couple years
to really learn about how to take care of ourselves
and how to navigate life with boundaries. So let's just
dive in and I don't know, let's just talk about boundaries.
I want to know, how did you actually become the

(01:18):
boundary boss.

Speaker 4 (01:20):
Well, I started out as the boundary disaster exactly. So
I mean, you know they say that you teach what
you most need to learn. Yeah, I think that that.
In my case, for sure that was true, although I
didn't know in my twenties, you know, when I was
in therapy and trying to figure out, like, why was
I bitter in this relationship and feeling taken advantage of

(01:42):
by this person and pissed off about this thing, I
had no idea that the pain in my relationships a
lot of it was related to me having disordered boundaries.
I didn't know that no one had taught me, no
one had talked about it. So in changing my relationship
to my own boundaries, internal boundaries, and then bringing that
out into my relationships, my life, my career, my romantic relationships,

(02:06):
it obviously changed my life. And I couldn't believe that
nobody teaches us this like incredibly important skill. And so
at the time when all this was happening, I was
a talent agent. I was negotiating contracts or supermodels and celebrities.
That's what I did before I became a psychotherapist, which
obviously is you know, entertainment is not exactly a hotbed

(02:26):
of really good boundaries.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Now it's just awful.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
I mean, just especially as an agent because I was young,
our clients are young, You're socializing your ass off with people.
You really it was very difficult, and that really shone
a light on how not good I was with establishing
and asserting and communicating boundaries. So when I started really

(02:53):
getting it, and I realized at the end of my
career and entertainment that I just literally didn't care about
the Panteene deal or the movie contract. All I cared
about was getting my clients into eating disorder clinics and
drug treatment help and therapy. And I was like, all right,
clearly you're in. You need to get out of here
before you start really sucking, and just you need to

(03:15):
do what you want to do, which was a hard
transition to make because I was really I was incredibly ambitious.
I was only in my early thirties and I was
running an agency like I was sort of according to
my father, I was at the top of my career.
He was like, wait, wait, what are you doing. It
was one hundred percent like, but why I'm just curious.

(03:38):
You want to make no money, you want to get
in debt to NYU to one hundred grand, which I did.
But I was like, dude, I'm grown up, Like I
love you and all, but I don't need your money
or your approval, so hopefully you'll support me, and that
would be great.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
I was going to say, I want to have a boundary.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
Harry, there you go, Okay, yeah, I mean how many
years if there be in those people right right, that
wouldn't happened If I was twenty two, right, I would
have been like, oh, maybe I shouldn't right, Maybe you're right,
maybe I should stay being a talent agent even though
I didn't want to. But what I saw when I
opened my own practice, and you know, X number of
years in and I was always taking copious notes of

(04:18):
like what are the similar pain points that people walk
in with, Like what is it that is killing the
joy in people's lives? What is exacerbating their pain or
creating pain? And no matter what they're presenting problem was,
I could just follow the dots backwards to the fact
that it was all related to them having no clue

(04:39):
as to how to communicate or establish healthy boundaries and
how that eventually made them miserable the same way that
I was saying that when I got into therapy, and
when I was in you know, years into therapy, I
would be like, this person is taking advantage of me,
this person is entitled, this person has all this expect

(04:59):
to how dare they have these expectations? And of course
my therapist was like, how about just say no, I
have an idea, Like we could spend all of our
time judging how what an idiot Betty is, or we
can simply say, oh, hey, that doesn't work for me,
but if you move next Saturday, maybe I can help

(05:19):
you for two hours, as opposed to being like, I
can't believe she'd ask me, because it's very unempowering to
not know what your preferences, limits, and deal breakers are,
which is what I consider your boundaries. Right, so let's
let's go there. I don't know did I answer your question,
even though that was like.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
And now I'm fascinated with this. So you said preferences,
Tell me again, preferences.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
Preferences, limits, desires and dea breakers.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
And deal and what are those like? If you had
to label those four things?

Speaker 4 (05:51):
Those are well that these are your boundaries basically, that is,
and the reason why I give you this spam is
that not all boundary requests or desires have the same weight.
You can have a preference like, hey, I don't really
feel like eating Italian tonight. Yeah, I really would like
to have sushi. That's a preference, right, That's not going

(06:13):
to end your marriage probably, And if your person was like,
I really can't, let's meet in the middle, let's have burgers,
you'd be like, okay, Like that's not the end of
the world. But your preferences matter though, And I think
a lot of us who want to be like you
know me, I'm easy, breezy, no fuss, no musk. Whatever
you guys want to do is good. Like, we get
habituated into these behaviors that are self abandoning in a

(06:38):
way that we're unaware of because we don't want any conflict, right,
we just don't even want to deal with asserting ourselves.
But I'm going to get to the fallout from not
asserting ourselves all right, So let's finish the categories of boundaries.
So you have your preferences, your limits, right, like your
friends like, can you come help me move all day

(06:58):
on Saturday from six am to midnight. No I cannot.
So a limit would say I have three hours I
can help you from twelve to three. I hope that's home, okay, right,
that's a limit. Desires are like sort of bigger things
in your life, like where you want to live and
what matters to you and again sholds around, yes exactly.

(07:20):
Childre are not children, but they're still important because again,
as you're going to see as we go through this process,
your limits, your preferences, your desires, and your deal breakers
they're not just your boundaries, they're also the qualities in
you that make you uniquely you, so they're really important.

(07:42):
And deal breakers. Last one is deal breakers, which this
is just that is non negotiable, no negotiable either way. Right, Like,
if you're someone who's getting in a relationship with someone
and you must have children, that's non negotiable. Do me
a favorite. Don't date people who are like, I'm on
the fence. Forget it. That's a problem. Date people who
you know want kids. But a lot of times we'll

(08:03):
be like, oh, they're so nice, I'm gonna wait and
see they're going to change their mind. Maybe not, Like
so we have to be committed to our deal breakers,
or for me, dating someone in recovery because I'm in
recovery was I didn't want that. That would have been
a deal breaker. Just one addict, one recovering addict in
my relationships is enough, Even though my friends would be like,
you're single and you're so picky, you don't want to

(08:24):
date anyone in recovery work? Are you judging people in recovery?
I'm like no, no.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
I'm meant you're like no, but you are.

Speaker 4 (08:34):
Exactly like. And also, my deal breakers are my business.
It's mine, right. I don't need to convince anyone of anything, right,
and neither do you. Yeah you know, neither do you.
So anyway, according to Terry Cole, those are your boundaries.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
I love that because well the first when I mean
were talking about preferences, you mentioned the words self abandoning,
and I think that that is such a big word
when it comes to boundary because what you said, even
with preferences is like the Italian restaurant, for example, I
actually can do that. I'll be like, oh, I'll find
something on every menu. But before long in a relationship,

(09:12):
if you do that over and over and over again,
you don't even exist, like you're what you like, what
who you are just becomes like melded into who the
other person is and before you know it, and I'm
saying this because I've done it a million times, you're
living in their life and your life is like no
longer even there to be found, so you're just completely

(09:33):
lost because you're.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
You're there, you become a people pleaser, yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
And you're already yeah, you already are a people pleaser
if you're doing that right, right, I think.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
It's probably important to say too, like it is fine
sometimes to be like, you know what, like tonight, I
really don't have an opinion, like whatever you want, Like
that's fine to do occasionally, but I think when you
but it's also important to remember that when you are
craving something, it's okay to be like, you know what,
I'm really I would love sushi tonight. And you have

(10:05):
to find the happy medium there. You don't want to
be the person who's like always putting your foot down
to and saying like no, no, I don't want that.
I don't want that because you have to be open
to other people's boundaries too and preferences.

Speaker 4 (10:17):
Right, If you with someone like I care I have
a hankering for a chicken pop pie, I care about it.
I may not want to eat that, but again, I'll
find something on that menu because he wants to. And
I may not like chicken pop pie, but I really
like him.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, I love that. That Actually did that make me smell?
So that's like, I think that's the best mentality in
a relationship.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Though.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
It's like you care about him, and so that's what
compromise or showing up in the relationship looks like. But
there's a difference between that and doing it all the
time to where like if he's meeting you there, like
if he's doing that for you too, that's great. But
like I've found myself in a lot of situations where
I do that and I'm like, oh, I care about

(11:04):
this person, but then I don't even realize, like it's
not being matched, you know, So it becomes that one
sided dynamic, and so these four things are really just
kind of thrown out the window because I'm just showing
up to the place that I'm not being met there,
if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (11:17):
Right, Yeah, And you're also not you're not inviting anyone
to meet you there. You're literally closing the door on
getting your needs met. You you're the one just slamming
the door and being like, cool, what you want? Cool,
what you want? Right now, I'm the cool girl. It
is the beginning of a relationship. I'mzy. Everything is fine
until it's not, because that is a slow boat to bitterland,

(11:40):
which is like the only stop on that boat. Right,
there's nowhere else to go because none of us can
be invisible for a long period of time and not
become resentful. The way to think about your personal boundaries
is your own personal rules of engagement, and it's how
we let other people know what's okay with us and

(12:01):
what's not okay with us. And there's a way to
do it. And it's always possible to be kind. Yeah,
like Bob from accounting and he is a total jerk,
then you don't need to be kind, right, you could
be you could have a little more heat to the Yeah,
exactly Byob. But I think that the myths that are
around having healthy boundaries, it's like you are saying no

(12:25):
all the time. Kind of what you said Chip, like
the person who's like M constantly, I'm going to assert
what I want all the time, I'm punching people in
the face. Verbally, I'm blocking people out. I'm rejecting people.
That's not true at all, doesn't have to be. And
if someone is doing that, they're not a boundary boss.
They're a boundary.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Bully, which is not the same, not the same.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I want to give an example, Like so, I have
a recent recently started dating this guy and he loves
Mexican food, and last night we had dinner and like
we we now eat Mexican food a lot because he
liked I actually loved Mexican food too. I wasn't really
in the mood for it last night, but he would
like had a hankering for it, and so I said sure.
You know, I just wanted to spend time with him.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
But in hindsight, I look back and I tried.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Because I wasn't really in the mood for Mexican food,
I didn't want what I normally order, so I got
adventurous with the menu last night and I tried things
that I'd never had, and when I left, I was
really happy that I'd had Mexican food. So, you know,
I do think sometimes like I didn't feel like I
was you know, relinquishing any boundaries. I just literally didn't

(13:38):
have much in an opinion last night except for I
wanted him to have what he wanted. So I do
think there are those moments in our lives that we
can look at, like, if we don't have a hard
line reason to say no, then it's okay to like
sort of lean into what you're not sure of because
you might learn something about.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
Yourself without a doubt. But you know, chip what you
see more often than not is people, especially people pleasers
with the disease to please, who are a conflict avoidant,
who fear rejection, that they're not worried about that part
of it because they're they're always doing that. They're always

(14:17):
thinking of the other person, always self abandoning in service
in their mind, in service of being loving, in service
of the relationship, and service of being kind. And so
the mutuality that you're talking about. So the guy you're
dating last night had hankering, You're like, I kind of don't,
but I could kind of find it's not a big deal.

(14:39):
I don't feel put upon by this. And again, those
are conscious choices that you make, and your point was
well taken that you have like a culinary adventure because
you didn't feel like what you normally ate and it
ended up kind of being interesting to you. And there's
no problem with that. It's making choices that are mindful
and not compulsive, not driven by fear, not unconscious, which

(15:01):
is what so much of the time they are, especially
when you're a people pleaser right right, You're you're literally
your default position is is cool.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right, And I suffer from that, like I suffer from rejection.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
I want to keep people happy.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I'm non confrontational, and I mean this, this relationship is
new to me, so I am trying. I'm making and
we can get into this in a minute too, like
my word of the year's Purpose, which I'm wearing this today,
my Justin Bieber purpose sweatshirt that I ordered for eBay,
but I am I want to be very purposeful in it.

Speaker 5 (15:39):
So I am like, I'm trying to not be a
people pleaser whilst also still leaning in and like wanting
to get to know him and know what his desires
and his preferences and all of those things are too,
because I think that's important, especially in a romantic relationship.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
You know, obviously there are boundaries that exist in the workspace.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
And and family relationships and those sorts of things. But
I think in the beginning, particularly for me, of this
romantic relationship, like I'm learning my boundaries within that sphere. Yes,
as it pertains to this one particular relationship.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
Yes, But I have a question for you. So you
want to get to know your person, you're interested in them,
I want them to get to know you, right, So
where is this space? Because here's what ends up happening
a lot of times when we are as you described,
and I was exactly the same, So I totally get it.
Conflict avoidant and just want it to be smooth, and

(16:36):
want to be accepted and want to be loved. Of course,
this is literally what we all want. So really it's like,
how much of the time do you become sort of
an expert listener an expert interviewer? Like I can't tell
you how many conversations I hid behind, like never revealing
anything about myself because I was so good at getting

(16:58):
other people to talk about themselves. Oh, tell me more
about that, and what about this? And then what happened?
And partly because I didn't want to be vulnerable Unconsciously
this was a conscious but partly because I wanted to
have control, yeah, of the conversation, and I wanted it
to go smoothly, and I was worried about a pregnant pause.

(17:21):
And does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Really, it's like your own way of trying to get
safety in a situation.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
And all boundary issues, right, things are boundary issues.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
I was looking earlier. I was telling you, I was
talking your instagram, which also has a really great instagram.
If you guys struggle with boundaries. I highly suggested I'll
put it in the description of this podcast that under
your bio you say helping women liberate themselves with boundaries
to break the cycle of overfunctioning. And I was like,
whoa shots fired? Terry, Like, I feel like you to

(17:54):
call me, but I wanted to know because that is me,
like the overfunctioning until I literally like, my life is
falling apart because I'm overfunctioning in a relationship to try
to maintain things because I think it's going to make
it work or whatever. But do women struggle with that
more than men? I was wondering why you specifically address

(18:14):
women in your bio.

Speaker 4 (18:17):
I mean, I'm more of an expert. I would say
women in bath right, that that's more of my audience
for us than straight men. You're like, well, hello, and
I do think you know. Part of my actually the
next book that I'm writing right now is about high
functioning codependency, Yeah, which is basically what you what resonated

(18:42):
with you, that whole high functioning piece. And the reason
because the foundation of high functioning codependency or any codependency
is disordered boundaries. Right, And when you think about it,
even though most people don't think about it this way,
at its real base, tendency is an overt or a
covert bid to control the outcomes of others. Right. It

(19:07):
means you are overly invested in the feeling states, the situations,
the circumstances, the jobs, the relationships, the decisions of the
people in your life to the detriment of your own
internal peace and maybe your psychological well being, maybe financial wellbeing,
spiritual wellbeit for all of the things.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
So when I started my practice, I was attracting a
lot of women who are like me, which are highly capable,
very high functioning. And so when I would say, oh, hey,
what I'm seeing this is a codependent dynamic, they would
be like, yeah, no, you're wrong. Lady, you misunderstand what's happening.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
You don't know what your job is it because they
think of codependent, They're like, no, I'm independent. Look at
all the stuff I'm doing, because that's what I first thought.
I'm in recovery for coindependency. So this has been a
journey for me as well. But is that what they
were thinking?

Speaker 4 (20:00):
Being like, well, they were like, I'm not dependent on
squat exactly. I am the one that everyone comes to.
I'm making all the dough, I'm supporting.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
All the problems.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
I'm fixing all the problems. I'm the rock in my family.
How can you insult me by telling me I'm codependent?
So after years of this same response, I needed a
way to get in to my people because they were suffering. Yeah, like,
you're not going to stop suffering until we can identify
what it actually is and then change the behavior. And

(20:34):
so I coined a new phrase. Because there are differences
between regular old melody baby codependent no more got to
be involved with an addict enabling codebeddancy and the high
functioning codependency. So as soon as I came up with
this name, then my clients were like, oh, it definitely.
Everyone then was leaning in and being like, oh my god,

(20:57):
that is me and holy crap, I'm exhausted.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, it's so interesting because I love that you're talking
about that, because I find like, even when I say, oh,
I'm in recovery for codependency, people are like, what you're not,
Because I like am a high functioning human in the
areas of my life until it falls apart. But that's
been the thing is like, you know, I can do
a lot of things, and I can do a lot

(21:21):
of jobs and like show up and so it doesn't
look like like I'm not sitting around just like waiting
for a man to fix my life. You know. If anything,
it's the opposite in most cases. But that's where people
get codependency wrong. And so it's really interesting to hear
because I think a lot of times we think like
we're doing something kind for someone else, and it's really

(21:42):
like the people pleasing and the overfunctioning and all this stuff,
it's really for us. And that's like, it's a big
thing that I've had to really accept, is like that's
not the kind generous thing to do for them right now,
actually saying no or holding a boundary or not doing
it for them, and like a lot, allowing the space
to do it for themselves is the kindest thing we

(22:03):
can do for other people.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Agreed. But think about it this way. When people come
to us and they've had a problem and we're just
auto fixing our asses off, we just cannot wait to
get in and be like, I've got a book recommendation,
I'm gonna help me up with my friend who's a doctor.
I've got I'm on Google right now, find answers for you.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
It's yes, I did a podcast about this, and yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
Here's who you should follow. It's going to be great.
But what we're doing, and this was so humbling for
me to really get, is that we're centering ourselves in
the middle of the person's problem. Now your problem is
just about me? Is the solution. I've got it. You're

(22:47):
good because I'm uncomfortable with you being in pain, so
I need I'm compulsively trying to fix my own discomfort
with your pain right So there, it is so distressing
to me that you're in pain that I'm I can't
even stop myself right until you're in recovery. It's like
I couldn't even stop myself from making suggestions, from lending money,

(23:10):
from doing all the crap. But when my therapist was like,
I had a situation with one of my sisters who
was in a terrible abusive situation. Literally no exaggeration, no
filter needed, living in the woods in a house that
had no running water or electricity, with a guy who
was doing crack and being physically abusive. That's the actual situation. Yeah,

(23:32):
so this is very bad and very bad when your
code abandon because I couldn't. I was obsessed with like
saving her from herself, from her choices from him. I mean,
all the revenge fantasy is all the money that I
threw at it. And I remember calling my talking to
my therapist and I was crying and being like I
just can't take it. She tells me how terrible he
is to her and how abusive he is and he's

(23:53):
hitting her, and you know what am I gonna do?
And she was like, terror, what are you gonna do?
I was like yeah, yeah, Like what am I going
to do? She's like yeah, okay. So then she explained,
She's like, listen, do you do you know what's going
on here? And I was like, uh no, but clearly
not by what you're saying, So how about just fill

(24:15):
me in? And she said, you've worked for twenty years
to create a lot of internal peace and you have
a pretty harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire of a
life is really messing with your peace, and you want
it to stop, right, You want it to stop, so
you want to fix that so you can go back

(24:37):
to your like unicorns and butterflies.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
That's a good point. It's so true, and like are
oftentimes too, Like if someone's going through something, you know,
like they're not themselves and so you're like, I just
need you to get back to normal so that we
can go like that's fun again and live our lives
and that kind of thing too.

Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yep. But what I love though, and the end of
the end is I was like, I didn't know I
had a choice. So this is another thing with high
functioning codependency or any codependency. I literally did not know
that I was allowed to not throw myself under that
bus on a daily basis. I didn't know. So I
said to my therapist, so what do you mean. She's like, Sarah,

(25:19):
you need boundaries and you need to communicate them with
your sister and tell her it's too painful for you
to talk to her all the time. Well, she's in
this situation. And then I said, but I want to
help her if she wants to get out, like, I
still want to be her person. She's like, then say
that called my sister told her. Within nine months, I'd
say maybe. We talked twice, and at the end of
nine months, she was like, HI, if your offer still stands,

(25:42):
I want to get the buck out of here. And
I was like, I'm getting in my car right now,
went and picked her up. My husband and I had
this little lake house. We let her live there for
two years, like winter rised it for her. Just she
went back to school, she got sober. She but here's
the most important part of this story is that it
was because I was the hero in her story. It

(26:05):
was because she was the hero in her story. So
the changes that she made stuck because they weren't about
her pleasing me. It was about her reaching that bottom
that you have to reach to decide you're going to
change your life and then appropriately asking for the help
that I said would be there. So that was a

(26:26):
win win, even though those nine months were long and
that was hard to do. But that is exactly what
you were saying before about you know, kel you were
saying before about like the loving thing to do? Yeah,
is not making her situation about.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Me, right, because I mean when we're talking more about
I guess addiction specific situations. But I think people can
apply this to any sort of toxic dynamic in your
you know, people in your life. If you're observing that
it feels cruel to be like I can't pull you
out of this and fix this for you, Like you
have to do that for yourself or to me, it

(27:02):
does like, yeah, I'm like I love this person, why
wouldn't that help them? But you made such a good
point of like it doesn't stick unless they are the
ones to do it for themselves. And that's what I
think a lot of people in recovery learn along the way,
is like, especially if people are deciding to get sober,
like I can't make anybody get sober, it's not going
to stop. It's not going to like fix it for them.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
But also robbing them of their sovereignty. And I think
that that's something that's really important. Why shouldn't I help them?
What makes you think you know what they should do?

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Right? Like I'm not.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
God. Well, that's my therapist said into my face. She
was like, what makes you think you know what lessons
your sister needs to learn? In this Les's exactly right?
And I was like, what do you mean? I don't
think she needs to live in a house without running water?
And she's like, hey, well you don't, are you? God is?
Do you know how she's going to learn? You don't,
And so it's so presumptuous to think, like I know

(27:59):
what you should do. I don't know what you should do,
but I love you and I'm here and I'll listen
and I'll do whatever I can do. But it's it's
like that shifted it as well, because I felt the
same way about like, she's my sister. How can I
not Yeah, my therapist was like, but you can't eat this.

(28:21):
What you have in your mind that you think you're
doing is an illusion of controllatory it's not real. You
don't have control. Your sister's going to change when and
if she reaches a point of pain, tipping point where
she's willing the pain of leaving, right, the pain of
staying is overpowering the pain of leaving.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
I have a question, because you know we talked a
lot about this ship the last couple of months. My
I'm sorry the last couple of weeks that was the
wrong word. My word for this year in general is
dare and ship's this purpose and so we've really applied
all of our topics this month to that. And it
was funny because, like when I was talking to your
rep about doing a podcast, I was like, actually, this

(29:04):
is the perfect time because to me, boundaries are literally
the most daring thing that I'm doing in my life
right now. And some people might be like, what, that's ridiculous,
but when you know my journey of that, Like I
remember when I first started recovery, I set a boundary
and I sobbed for hours after setting it, like it

(29:25):
was the and it was so simple, like I can't
go to lunch with you, and the person was like okay,
and I was like, you know it was. It broke me.
And then there's the other side of it that I
do where I'll wait, i'll wait, i'll wait, I'll stuff
all stuff, all stuff, and then I explode. It's like
the only way I can set of boundaries if I'm
so angry that I can't function. So can you talk

(29:45):
a little bit to people who might be listening that
are like me, or they resonate with that, where it's
just like the simplest things even can seem so overwhelming
and so like setting a boundary can be daring. Why
is that? Like why are they so hard?

Speaker 4 (30:02):
Because we're afraid and because it's the little well, it's
the kid. All of us have children within, right, And
trust me, before I became a psychotherapist, I was like
what No, Yeah, like I had no I had no
love for the child within John Bradshaw's stuff until I
became a therapist, and then I was like, oh my god,

(30:23):
this is so important. This is so true that all
of us have the little kid us where you know,
we've had different experiences at different phases of development that
make us vulnerable to different disordered types of relationships in
adulthood or relationships to substances or whatever it is. So

(30:43):
it's so hard because it's the six year old you
who can't just like hitch it out of there to
go like rent an airbnb, right, Like we're kids are
the most you know, the ultimate captive audience where whatever
was going on in the family of origin, we figured
out how to survive that the good, the bad, the disordered,

(31:06):
the dysfunctional, the painful, the abuse of the addicted. And
so when you're having that experience, that crying experience, that
isn't the adult to you. That's the little kid you
who could never do it in childhood and has waited.
Not just you waiting four months to do it with
this person, it's you waiting forty years to do it

(31:29):
or thirty years to do it in your life. And
so the way that I teach it in Boundary Boss,
the book itself, is there's a way to create proactive
boundary plans, but you do a whole internal deep dive
before that. So identifying anybody listening who's like, I don't
even know where to start, but help it seems so overwhelming,

(31:52):
Which is what everyone says when we talk about boundaries,
is I will invite you to do something that's super
quick to do. Do a resentment inventory, because that's going
to tell you where you need a boundary, or where
you haven't been asserting a boundary, or where you've asserted
a boundary and the person is violating the boundary. Right,

(32:12):
a need is going unmet. If we are feeling resentful
in relationships, some need of ours is going unmecked.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
So if you're that statement, y'all think about that. Though.
If you're mad, like if you're feeling resentful, it's because
a need is not getting met. I think a lot
of times we want to make it about the other person.
You said this at the beginning, it's about us and
it's about our need not being met. Sorry to cut
you off, I just correct touch a good point.

Speaker 4 (32:38):
No, no, no, I think that it's really important, and I
agree with you co I don't think that people look
at it from that way. It's almost like we look
at relationships in this very two dimensional way. It's like
you're wrong and I'm right. You stepped out on me,
so now you're the bad one, and now you could
make it up to me. But like in this two
dimensional way, but there is always a parallel process going

(33:03):
on underneath whatever is happening on the surface. So if
you find yourself in a repeated situation where you're like, wow,
I'm in another relationship with an unavailable person, How the
hell did I get here? Again? There is something that
you are repeating, right, Because there's this great Christine Obah
has this great quote. We repeat. What we do not repair,

(33:29):
and that is a fact, especially when it comes to relationships.
So any repeated thing in your life where you're like,
how am I have no money again? How am I
say I'm gonna work out and didn't do it again?
Or I'm going to stop drinking during the week and
I keep drinking during the week, Like how am I
here again? I'm going to give you, guys, three questions
that you can ask yourself to get clarity on what

(33:52):
is actually happening. Because as human beings, we can only
talk things out or act things out. So if you
have this repeated situation that you're like, why am I
here again, you're acting something out that if we can
identify the original injury, you then have the option to

(34:16):
talk it out, to journal it out, to write it out,
to talk to your friend, to get into therapy, like
there's all kinds of things, But this stuff is in
your unconscious mind. This is like in the basement of
your mind. So the questions are this, if you find
yourself in a relationship, let's say, with an unavailable person again,
you say, who does this person remind me of? Okay,
where have I felt like this before? And how or

(34:38):
why is the behavioral dynamic the way I'm interacting with them,
the way they're interacting with me. How is that familiar?
Because you may have witnessed it, it doesn't mean you
had to have experienced it yourself. Maybe you saw that
dynamic with the adults that raised you. You know what
I mean, we could still be playing out those things.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
I'm processing because yeah, go ahead, Tchip well, I.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
Mean, I.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Don't know if this is a huge gearshift, just say
so we can get to it. But like I'm thinking,
when I'm listening, I'm hearing a lot about myself, but
I'm also thinking about the work that I do. And
I work in music management, so we basically there's a
lot of serving other people.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
You know.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
What's what she was saying at the beginning, I'm.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
A professional codependent, you know.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
And yes, so you know it's obviously it's like you know,
and I do. I love what I do, so I
don't mean for that to sound negative. But I'm also, like,
you know, mindful of how much I work, and especially
in going into this new relationship.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
I'm in an album really cycled.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
I'm like, hey, I just need you to know the
next four weeks are going to be insane for me,
and it's but I want to like be purposeful and
make as much time for him as possible.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
And I don't even know what that's going to look
like yet, you know.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
So I'm just wondering, like the difference between like when
it's romantic and professional, Like how much harder should we
expect boundaries to be? Because when it affects your livelihood
and you being able to pay your mortgage and put
suit on your table, I would imagine that as a
different level of stress than like having to find another
significant other, especially if it's your you know, your serial

(36:23):
data or whatever it is. And you know, obviously if
you're in a committed marriage.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
Or something, it's a different level of stress. But yeah,
I'm just curious.

Speaker 4 (36:32):
Well, here's the thing about being a professional codependent, Yes, agreed.
People in the service industry, who do I see in
my in my practice so much, you know, trauma nurses
like people who life is service, that's what it is,
and that mindset is melding into their personal life. So

(36:55):
the first thing is mindfulness. And you can also be
in a you can be in a service industry and
have boundaries, right, you can actually be healthy because what
I find in working with I mean a lot of
the people I've worked with, super high profile people, is that,

(37:18):
especially in my private practice now right where it's like
they respect me being honest and not being like everyone else.
It's like the Elvis syndrome. This is what they you know,
when I would always be counseling like high profile people
about you have to watch out for the Elvis syndrome,
which is that if you surround yourself with all of
these bottom suckers who are there for money, who don't

(37:40):
give a crap about you, nobody is telling you the
truth about what you're doing, how you're acting, how you're
impacting others. Nobody but I will, and maybe you'll fire me,
and that's okay. But I'm telling you right now now,
I'm not saying with doing what you're doing, you're gonna
like be you know, serving someone that information. But I

(38:01):
also think it's okay to not take someone's phone call
at two in the morning, or to not be available
twenty four to seven, because the unrealistic lives, the how
demanding people who have this crazy power in our society
and working with and I've worked with all different kinds
from pop stars to professional athletes, where it's like not

(38:24):
real life, right, right, not real life, and everyone is like,
you're so amazing, and I don't want you know, it's
all about you being happy person, and I'm like, why
to stop it?

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Right?

Speaker 4 (38:37):
First of all, happiness is not a destination. This is
just moments of happiness. That's kind even normal to think that.
And wait a minute, this is called just because in
your life everything is instant gratification. That's not life, and
that's that's not a life that I want to be
involved with. So I think that one thing is to
look at how your behavior you're in your work, or

(39:02):
are there places where you can sort of tighten up
your preferences, your limits and your boundaries. That makes sense, right,
We're not talking about extremes, right when you're not telling
off like the lead singer of whatever. Right, it's not that.
It's about how are you taking care of yourself while
you're expending so much bandwidth towards the service of others, right,

(39:25):
so upping the self care. And then there has to
be a delineation between work and boyfriend land, work and home,
work and real life where in your own mind, I
always have my clients go through some kind of a
ritual where you're like energetically leaving the day, change change

(39:47):
to a different hoodie right when you get tonight, time
is now we're going to have a different hurdey for
we're going around to Mexico or or just a different
justin Bieber, so that energetically we're sort of moving into
the next place. And really, again, Chip, going back to
what you were saying, you can check your urgency around things,

(40:14):
you can check your resentment because if we're feeling really
urgent around doing something for someone, or like someone has
a problem and the urgency suddenly their problem has like
lit a fire in my chest where it now is
literally my problem. Now I'm not talking about work there,
I'm talking about home because sometimes your client's problem is

(40:37):
your problem if it's your job to fix it. Right.
So again, we need discernment in the workspace around boundaries,
but in home life and romantic life it's the mindfulness piece,
which is why I'm a meditation teacher and i have
meditation CDs and I'm on insight timer with a million
meditations because it's such an important part of people being

(41:01):
healthy is having some internal stillness and silence, which gives
you about two seconds more reaction time, right, so you're
not on autopilot because it's so easy to just as
my teacher David g would say, wake up, earn through
the day, drop and do it all over again.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
You know, I think that's so good too. I love
all of that because also taking the time to pause
or meditate or any of that stuff. It goes back
to what we were talking about with self abandoning, Like
when you're sitting with yourself in those moments, you're actually
able to say, like, what is going on for me?
And like when I can identify it within myself, whether

(41:42):
it's work where I'm struggling because Chip and I both
work in the same industry, or relationships, I mean, they're
all the same to me. I struggle in all of it.
I realized I didn't realize it, but it just it's
all crossover. If you don't do boundaries, you just don't
do them in any of your life. But so when
I sit with myself, I can say, like, why am
I resentful? Why am I bitching about that person today?
And most of the time it's like you said, I

(42:04):
just need to set a boundary, and I can come
to a kind calm way to do that, you know,
if I sit with myself for a second, Yeah, do
you have tips? I know we were running out of time,
but do you have tips? And I'm sure the book
addresses this, but of how to clearly communicate because to me,
like boundaries are getting easier and instead of being in
the child place where I want to cry and I'm like, oh,

(42:26):
I don't know, just don't do that, it makes me that,
you know, I'm able to clearly communicate what I need
or what need I need am doing without even being
like aggressive with the other person about what it's not
about what they're doing. It's like this is me and
this statement or I'm probably not saying that right, But
do you have tips for us to learn about boundaries

(42:47):
of like clearly communicating in an easy manner?

Speaker 4 (42:51):
Of course I do. Yeah, And I mean there's a
whole chapter, okay in Boundary Boss, which people can get
at boundarybossbook dot com. And there's a whole bunch of
bonuses there too. But I created a whole chapter. But
I'll let let's talk about some easy frames and some
sentence starters that people can take away from this podcast.

(43:12):
Where the first thing is knowing what the problem is
and not doing what you said, not waiting until you're
a volcano the second you start feeling that bug in
your chest or your throat or wherever you get it.
Because we all are body. The wisdom of our bodies
is profound. Trust me, somebody says something, you don't say
anything at the moment, your body registered that shit immediately,

(43:36):
and if you think about it later, you're like, oh,
when did I start getting in a bad mood? Oh,
yeah it was, Yes, it's when Betty interrupted me during
the team meeting and stole my thunder right or whatever
the thing is. We identify what it is and the sooner,
like as soon as a boundary violation or you don't

(43:57):
like something, I don't mean again it has to be
of minutia, right, But the sooner we can establish boundaries
right early, and often, I like to say especially in relationships,
because we're establishing how it's going to be. Yeah, So
if you're if you're dating someone and they go, hey,
i'll call you Friday, maybe we'll go out on Friday night.

(44:18):
Don't hear from them Friday. Then Monday they call their like,
how's the weekend, or they text you. Of course they
wouldn't even call. What am I saying? What is it?
Nineteen eighty? So they text you and they're like, how
is your weekend? Right? You can either collude with their
bullshit reality because they didn't do what they said they
were going to do, which is call you on Friday

(44:38):
and tell them how your weekend was, or you can say, oh,
when I didn't hear from you on Friday, I just
figured you flaked. I had a great weekend. How about you? Like,
you say something and we don't need to be all
agro about it, but you say something, and then if
it happens again, you're like, dude, here's the thing. I'm busy, Like,
you don't need to tell me you're gonna call me

(44:58):
on Friday. But if you do say I expect you
to keep your word. Now, yeah you would. You wouldn't
say it with the annoyance that I just said it with.
So let's talk about how how would we say it.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
I'm like, you think that was annoying, Terry note be mad.

Speaker 4 (45:15):
So a really easy frame is I'd like to make
a simple request. Okay, So that's that's the beginning, right,
And this is used in martials. Work easy, Breezy. I'd
like to make a simple request that if you're going
to be more than ten minutes, let you text me
so I would have walked instead of taking an uber.
If I know you were going to be late, just
limit it. We're letting the person know. We don't have

(45:39):
to sit at the dinner all pissy, being withdrawn and anger,
giving one word answers to show them how mad we
are without saying how mad we are. Because life is short.
People like you don't need to spend any minutes of
your life doing that, but we do. You know what
I mean, So say it, you feel the annoyance, say it.
We're giving them an opportunity to do it. Hopefully the

(46:01):
next time they're going to be like they're like, hey,
if you want to walk, walk, I'm not going to
be there at six fifteen. Great, thank you, And how
seen you feel, and how considered and loved you feel
when someone takes into consideration what you've asked them to do,
it's amazing. So by doing it, you're giving people the
opportunity to step up for you. And by holding resentment

(46:24):
and just filing it in that resentment file, cabinet. You're
not letting them right, We're not giving them an opportunity.
I'd say for a lot of people though, with the
kind of disordered boundaries that you're talking about, cal and
really trip you too, is we want to stop the
auto Yes, that's probably one of the most powerful ways

(46:45):
that we can put the brakes on our disordered boundary
tendency or habituated patterns. So for seven days, no nothing,
There'll be no thing that you say an immediate yes too, right.
I mean unless it's like your boyfriend's like, do you
want to go out for dinner?

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (47:04):
Okay, so you don't have to get back to them
on that. But for most of us, where someone's like, oh,
can you help me with this project? Can you help
me move? Can I borrow your car or your whatever
it is? Do you want to do? You want to
come to my house for dinner? Right? All of these
things give yourself the luxury of time. Nobody need it's

(47:24):
an immediate answer from you. Literally, not one person needs it.
And so we you've trained people for what they can
expect from you, and now you're going to retrain them.
So for seven days, you're not giving any immediate yeses
to things. You're going to say that's correct.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
In the middle of an album release, So what are
we going to say?

Speaker 4 (47:49):
What are we going to say? Instead, we're going to
buy time. We're going to say, oh, hey, you know what,
I need to check my schedule. I need to check
with my boyfriend my girlfriend. I'll get back to you tomorrow,
or I'll get back to you wednesday, or I've instituted
a twenty four hour decision making policy, so I'll let
you know by the end of day tomorrow. Right, Like,
for my own sanity, I need I'm not positive what

(48:11):
I'm doing. How about just I need to ef and
think about it. Are we allowed to just think about
things because we're not sure that we want to do
whatever the thing is.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
No.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
I love giving the like time though what you just
said of like twenty four hours or end of day
or even if it was an hour, let me think
on that. I'll be back in an hour because then it,
like to me, calms the nervous system of the other
person too. And so there's not like like you're making
a commitment to show up.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
It's just such a code of pic. No, it's not
my job. I know it's my job, Oh my god,
to stop doing.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
So like it doesn't do the thing where they're like,
h like, I know, we deal with that in work
because it is everything is so urgent. So when I
give people a time frame, they're like, okay, cool, yes
and listen, Yes, but we can call.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
You're doing that for yourself? Is what you to be
thinking of? That?

Speaker 1 (49:01):
That's all I need to think about, isn't that?

Speaker 4 (49:02):
Yes? Because it makes you less anxious. Yeah, to give
a timeframe because you're feeling like they won't come back
to you again about it, or they won't be annoyed
about it. But again, be mindful. How you feel has
to be the most important thing. And that doesn't mean
especially being in entertainment or music. I mean that requires

(49:26):
so much diplomacy and so much strategy, social strategy in
that world. Dude, it's like I'm a spy. Like I
could literally be a spy, like so good at reading people,
reading the room, reading a micro change in a facial expression,
and then suddenly I would be like changing what I
was saying so that their unhappiness would go to happiness. Right,

(49:48):
So what I meant was like avoiding all of the
rejection and the pushback and yet at the expense of
what so part of it is you have to have
boundaries there. And another thing I think you guys are
going to realize is that you can still do your jobs,
you can still deliver, but people will have so much

(50:08):
more respect.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
That's so true for you.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
I read I read a quote last week from Warren
Buffett that said, the difference between successful people and really
successful people is that really successful people say no most
of the time.

Speaker 4 (50:22):
It's yes, so true.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Yeah, and it's really stuck with me. I'm not really
good at remembering quotes, but I remember.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
That one for me too. That's so deep.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, Well, I need to read this book fully because
this is like obviously I'm shown my colors a couple
of times. The book is called Boundary Boss, The Essential
Guy to Talk, true, be seen, and finally live free. Terry,
Where else can people find you? Because I did mention
your Instagram? Will you tell them your handle?

Speaker 4 (50:52):
Sure? Just at Terry Cole, which is Tterry Cole r
r I co l E. I also have a gift
for your audience, so they can they can find it
at Boundary Boss, dot me, forward slash velvet okay, and
it's about it. It's a video and it's a downloadable
guide on boundaries and codependency.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Oh my gosh, well it goes to watch now.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
Yeah, I think you're gonna love it.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
Yeah, she's like, please do you forgot? I love it?
Thank you so much. This is so helpful you guys.
Go follow Terry on Instagram. Go check out the free gift.
Thank you for doing that. That's amazing. Sure, due Chip,
do you have any signing off things? I feel like
you got a purpose here. I think she gave you some.

Speaker 3 (51:35):
Yes. No, I think there's a lot there for me.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:38):
Well, thank you guys so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Of course, thank you for being here, and thank you
guys for listening.
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