Live from CrimeCon, Payne chats with renowned investigative journalist Chris Hansen. Best known for his groundbreaking TV series "To Catch a Predator," Hansen shares insights into his most compelling investigations, the ethical dilemmas of undercover journalism, and the evolving landscape of online crime. Discover the stories behind the headlines and gain a deeper understanding of the impact and legacy of his fearless reporting. Don't miss this captivating conversation with one of journalism's most influential figures.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to
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Speaker 2 (00:13):
Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and
iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to Talking to Death. I'm Dylan Harrington, producer
of the show. On today's episode, we are continuing our
conversations from Crime Con and today's guest. If you're a
fan of true crime or you're a fan of crime TV,
you'll know the name Chris Hansen. Chris Hansen is an
investigative journalist, most well known for his hit show To
(00:41):
Catch a Predator. I grew up with it. I know,
Pain and Mike did. I'm sure a lot of you
did as well. Chris has done a ton of work
to clean up the streets, both figuratively and literally. In
his career, He's been responsible for putting hundreds of pedophiles
behind bars. Pain had an opportunity I need to be
on stage with Chris and they had a really great conversation.
(01:03):
Chris opened up about some of his most compelling investigations,
the ethical dilemmas of undercover journalism, and they talk about
the evolving landscape of online crime and how it's portrayed
on social media. Both Pain and Chris also talk about
investigative journalism and the strides that each of them have
made to put criminals behind bars. It's a fascinating conversation
(01:25):
when you definitely don't want to miss. It's funny, it's insightful,
and toward the end of the conversation, Chris and Pain
both take questions from the audience. So let's jump right
into it. Today's guest is Chris Hansen.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Seek Chris, I'm sorry, I thought that was gonna be
so funny if I could just get.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
He's busier than me, you got to get up early
in the mornings.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Clearly he's a nice guy. But yeah, I just I've
watched so many of your videos and I want to
know what keeps you ticking, because it isn't easy to
go and stake out and deal with these people, and
it's got to be scary. A lot of elements, like
(02:30):
outside of the good that you're doing as a human
being who has a life, has a wife, Like how
do you keep doing it man, and what keeps you ticking?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Well, you know, I'm a curious guy and I have
a lot of energy, and we do a lot of
different projects, right, So it's not all the.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Takedown predator investigations.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
You know, we'll be in San Francisco investigating the illegal
hunter and immigrants bringing fentanyl in and making millions of
and shipping it back to build mansions in their homeland.
So I get to do a lot of different documentaries
and a lot of them well they're all crime r
one way or another. But intellectually it's very engaging to
me to delve into all these different subjects. And I've
(03:17):
just accepted the mantle of the predator investigations as something
that I will always do as long as I am
in this business because it is what people expect from me.
It's something I believe that's important to continue to create
awareness in a dialogue, to remind parents and kids that
(03:40):
this can be out there and that this is a
constantly evolving crime which requires constantly reviewing and reporting on.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It because it does change.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
It's very different than when I started twenty years ago,
and not just because my hair is gray now and
it wasn't what I.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Started, well, it's always been great for the last five years.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Okay, I mean you pull off so well. I couldn't tell.
I mean, I'm grand too.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Us is by design.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I'm sure you put a little design here.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
You got to take the brass oness. But no, so
I've accepted that long time ago.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Look, the truth is, in the very beginning, there were
people who turned their nose up at this particular franchise
because it was different, it was edgy.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
We worked closely ultimately with law enforcement, and it was different. Yeah,
and we took some heat for that.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And I like in the view of like this is.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Traditional, not so much that, but traditional journalists were like,
this is different, this is scary.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
This has become a part of pop culture.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
And I can't help that it became a part of
pop culture. I can't control if South Park does a parody.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Of Chris Hansen and the Pier Investigation. You can't.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
So you can either be afraid of it or you
can embrace it for all the good that it carries.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
With it, which it does.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
And now we're in the third generation of people who
follow this content from the beginning to the work that
we do today at True Blue by streaming Crime Network.
And the beauty of having your own network is that
I don't have to sit in a meetings and b
meetings and green light meetings. I make one phone call
to our headquarters in Cleveland, and I could dispatch crews
(05:23):
around the world and do whatever story I want to
do and own the content and own the distribution of
the content. Finally, so we have it on True Blue,
which we own, We put it on Fox News, we
put it on Fox Nation.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Ultimately some of these documentaries, we hope.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
And so we have these multiple platforms along with what
we do on social media.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So it doesn't get any better than that for a.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Guy at my stage of this business and in my
evolution in this business, I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Forty two years, it's like, let the guy do his thing, right. Yeah,
it's amazing how much, But it's you.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Know, I have to give props to the network because
you know, without twenty one years at NBC and doing
Crimewatch daily and local news, I wouldn't have the platform,
the identity, the brand, yes to do this and all
those experiences you know, working for the man if you will,
you know, yes.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
That gives me.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Well, it was great, you know, but it just again,
it's part of my evolution as well.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Why do you think that there are so many predators
like that? And I mean specifically pedophiles, and in forty
two years you seem to think that maybe it's even
gotten worse in some way. And so from a psychological standpoint,
(06:44):
just from what you've seen, you know, and half these
people look kind of normal when you're just seeing on
the surface, right, So what's your take on that?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
My take is it's the availability, right, It's there are
thirty of these.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Guys who are hardcore predators, pedophiles who do this with
or without the Internet. They'd be the bad coach, the
bad step dad.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Guy hanging out lurking around the food court of them
all that you're never going to get rid of that.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And then you've got a younger.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Group who's so immersed in digital culture that they've become
four chan, eight chan kind of all that, all that stuff,
and they don't they wouldn't say things in real life
that they say online, and they blur this this age difference.
So you got a twenty one year old talking to
(07:35):
somebody that they think is a thirteen year old and
they think, well, it's only seven years.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
You know, it's Romeo and Juliet, and.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
They justify it, and then they come for it because
they don't have the ability to speak to somebody in person.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
And that's bad, that's horrible.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I don't think there's a big difference in terms of
criminal impact. Sure, between a twenty one year old and
a sixty one year old, it's the same crime.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You're an adult, but you can understand it better. Then
there's this guy in between, this third category.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
The doctor we caught, you know, sixty one year old
guy well Off drives his range rover over to have
sex with a teenage girl after communicating with her while
he sees eighteen patients in his practice. You know, we
saw that, and the guy gets caught, and he ultimately
sat down to do a long interview with me.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's not true blue now, but.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
What he said, he said he had a sickness, he
was addicted to porn. He really didn't care that the
girl was under age. He was just looking for any
kind of sex he could find, and he found this girl. Now,
I'm sure he's shaded this.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
That sounds like he's he's glossing it over, for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
But he also did not have any evidence of child
porn or any previous arrests of doing this. He admitted
to online prostitution and engaging in call girl services, but
there was no evidence that he had gone under age before,
and so a judge took that into consideration when he
sentenced him to probation. And he had already in registration
(08:54):
as a sex offender, and he'd already lost his practice,
and you know, you know, had serious probert almost with
his family as you would expect. But there's a guy
who can, probably with treatment, not only not reoffend, but
go out and tell other people on the verge of offending,
don't do this.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, you know. And I know that we have been
a deterrent with these investigations, and might I think guys
are afraid.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Guys have become aware of their own, you know, weaknesses
and their own flaws. And I get letters from the
podcast listeners all the time from guys who say, look,
I am inclined to be sexually attracted to minors. I
know that's wrong. I don't act on it. I go
(09:43):
to therapy every week. My partner knows this and is supportive,
and I know I'm not going to offend.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
But when you read that.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
What do you think it's it's it's it's a little creepy,
to be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
It's I think it's brave on their parts. Do it?
They always do it? You know? He said, I know
you can find out.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
About killing somebody, and I didn't and said, okay, well
let's let's let's not kill that person right.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Right, and maybe we can write exactly.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
And they're very reticent to come on the show because
they don't want to be identified, but I do share
the letters.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
With my listeners on the podcast. Interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Well, I think it's it's important because anything that takes
you inside the mind of a predator, whether it's you know,
the predators and our takedown investigations or you know, other
predatory crimes, the more you understand that mindset, the better
you can protect all of you, all.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Of us from becoming victims of crimes.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
And so I think it's an important understanding, And every
time I do it, we dig a little deeper into
the different personas these guys represent.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
What kind of predators are there out there?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
To you? Well, I think any predator who tries to
violate a.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Child is the worst of them all. But in our
sextortion and investigation. We talked about this on Friday at
our session, and we've got a big documentary going out
about this. We've got guys in Nigeria who are con artists.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Who poses teenage girls. They have pretty pictures.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
They target young men fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, you know, young
men or young men, and they send one of these
hot girl pictures and ask for one of the boy
he sends it.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Then they start the extortion.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
They demand money and they get caught up in this
and these kids sadly don't see a way out, and
in many cases, sadly they commit suicide.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
And I've sat over the last year with four.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Different sets of parents Northern Michigan, California, South Carolina, Ohio
who lost a good kid, athlete, good grades, getting ready
to go off to college, to suicide because they couldn't
see their way out of this.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Short term situation.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
And it's as if a guy in Nigeria came all
the way into market at Michigan, came through an unlocked
door at a nice family house and.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Killed this kid. That's what this is.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
But because it's so far away, they don't often get
prosecuted in this case for the first time I'm aware of.
They were able to go over there, find three guys,
bring them back to the United States, and they pleaded guilty.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
In their prison.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Right now, I know, good jobbing then, but this guy.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
It all comes down to, you know, if you ask
any one of those parents, and I spent and it's
heartbreaking paid to sit in the home with these parents.
Were their son, who's just like one of my sons, right,
just made a mistake and got caught up in this
is because these guys preyed upon them and knew how
to push the buttons. And this poor mother and father
(12:44):
have to do this and do this interview down the
hall from the room where it happened. And I looked
at these parents. I said, I, you know, I got
to tell you I'm a tough guy, but I don't
know that I could survive this the way you survived it.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And it really, I mean, it's from parent to parents.
Suddenly you're not the.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Journalists so much as you are as a fellow parent,
you know, and Johnshall tell you about that like.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Kids like does that has that changed your viewpoint?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I think it's it's given me a greater understanding And
what is that and what is it? Because you understand
the kids can screw up, and you understand that you
have to tell them that you know they're going to
mess up, and in first and foremost, you need to
come to me and let's work on this together. If
any of these kids, these four kids we profile had
(13:32):
come to their dad and say, hey, look, I'm paris
to tell you this. I sent some pictures of my
junk and I don't I'm worried Granma's going to see
them because the're gona send them money, you know, you knucklehead,
don't do it again.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Send yeah, save the text, give them to the local
sheriff's department, the local peace department.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
And don't give them any more money. Just stop talking
to him, and in two weeks this whole thing is over.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
It's we're going to tease you about it at Thanksgiving
dinner when you're thirty. Yeah, because you did something sad
it's a non event.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
But in the moment of an underdeveloped adolescent's brain, they
don't get that.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So we yeah, we see these parents and like you
you can see your son or something in this city.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Are all good kids. They're handsome kids. They look like
what are my kids.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, and it just it really, but if it impacts
the way you tell the story, and if you can
put that emotion along with the intellectual integrity into it,
you can get people's attention. And if you save one kid,
you win, right, if you save a thousand kids, you.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Change the world.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
So what do you tell to parents like that? You
gotta have the discussion. The same thing I tell when
it comes to, you know, online safety, when when your
son or daughter first goes on the internet, you have
to have an age appropriate conversation about the potential dangers.
And it starts very simply with there are grown ups
out there who like to trick kids.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Kids don't like to be tricked.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So, you know, unless you know that person in real life,
you don't know whether it's a grown up. You know,
some fifty five year old fat guy down in his
basement in his underwear, right, you know, the worst surrounded
by pizza boxes. You know, you don't know that it's
and this stuff happens, you know, but you got it.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That's what I always picture they are.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Yeah, well and you should because nine out of ten
times that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
But you got to you got to.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Reach them in a non intimidating creer. You can't just
yell at them and scare them. And you know, the
whole thing I thought, you parent, you trick them into
doing what you want them to do and make them
think it's their idea, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Right, that's kind of the basic rule I think.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I mean, I was joking outside before in the green
room before you got in here, when we're putting these
mics on, I was like, how many times did you
put you put this mic on? Is kind of how
to do this? And like I joked like probably one
hundred thousand, where I was like, probably like a million,
and I was like, yeah, I probably understand it.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
You know, We've been blessed have done some really heavy
duty stories around the world over the years, and two
that stick out our child slave labor and the soap
business in India where we went under cover with business
people and went to China to do counterfeit medicines and
did the whole thing. And in China they don't have
the same open mindedness about journalists that we know. So yeah,
(16:22):
so I can't go back because I'm on a list.
We went as executives of ge.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Being exactly, but we you know, we uncovered it.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
We had set up what would have been a ten
million dollar buy of you know, fake.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Vire ever and some people went to prison in China.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
But we were in Cambodia doing a story on underage
brothels and Americans, so Western Europeans going them sex tourism essentially, and.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
We were all wired up and taped up. And you know,
it's hard to get help right away in India or Cambodia.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
They'll get you out, yeah, but it's not like yeah,
serriffs down the street ready.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
And right thought, hey, I need to right over here.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
And you know it's a little more intense when you
go over there and have to imagine it's.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
It's quite an experience. And it prepared me for the
predator stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
You know, at the end of how many predators do
you think that you have caught? I think were there
any predators like left that you think you need to catch.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
We'll find out in the next.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Couple of weeks because we'll be back out there. But
I would say we're around six hundred six hundred in
the predator investigations. And you know, the way we do it,
and because we've evolved to continue to collaborate with law
enforcement to make sure these cases are very well prosecutable,
and we've got to be at a ninety five success
(17:45):
rate prosecution wise.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Do you think that you are the best predator catcher?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I think so there is I do too.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You've done so much good work with this and that
it's it's created this sort of way where I was
going through Instagram, I was like, is he with Jake
paul Ers and Logan Paul I'm like that. I was
like I felt like I was in like the matrix
or something.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Well, Logan's a great guy, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
He he had reached out and it was before his
fight with Dylan Danis and Dannis was trolling and that
was like pardon to.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Be and he said, hey, I got this crazy idea.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Would you come to Manchester, England where I love this
and we're going to do the news conference and I'm
going to say I'm going to take down this predator
in the ring. And Dannis was really trolling the fiance
hard and heavy, inappropriately and potentially you know, gray area legality,
and so I'm going to introduce you as the you know,
the the most renowned predator catcher and he's going to
(18:50):
help me take this down. So We're in Manchester and
I'm wearing my true blue hoodie with all the cure on,
just promoting, you know, shamelessly or network, and I will.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Go cool, look like a superhero.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I walk out there and I got cruise there.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
The whole team went, and Dannis is like, because he's
talking smack you know this whole time He's like and.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
He's like, is that an actor? Is that really? Christians
going to need you to have a seat right over there,
slack jaw.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
His team was ultimately cool with me, you know, but
but they were kind of scared for a second. Well, yeah,
they were stun and it was brilliant on Logan's part.
I mean, look, the Paul brothers are like you. They
understand like me because they understand, they understand that they
understand this world, this media.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
You know, in a good rush, you get it.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You know, you get it at a.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Level much higher than a lot of your period, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I mean, they did.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
It, they killed that.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
They were great at that. Yeah, I would like to
know as an investigative journalist, you know, so much has
changed in the true crime space since you first started.
I think that you're one of the originators of like
you were even saying, like when you first came out,
you were getting pushed back like this isn't traditional news,
(20:04):
and you know you kind of ruffle the feathers, breaking
the mold. And now that's like you kept doing that
and you you helped normalize that, and you know, I
look at that and the grant seame of things you
go back to you and then to podcasting, and there's
just been iterations of this. You know, when I first
made up and vanished, you know, I got shipped for
(20:27):
being the guy who shouldn't be doing this, and.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Now like, what's your pedigree?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, I'm like I don't have one.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Why not mean? Right?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
But now that's like a trope. It's like that's like
a job if you you know, fail college. Why I
always I could be a true crime podcaster. I guess right,
And I'm like, wow, what did it get there? But
I want to know your thoughts on just the evolution
of everything and where you think you should go next
as someone who I think has laid the foundation and
(20:54):
done it right.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Well, I think that's a great question, and I think
you know, we'll continue or we should continue to exploit
When I say exploit, I mean in a good way
the technology that is out there. Sure, And look, we're
in an industry that is largely self regulated, right, and
so it's very important for us to hold high ethical
(21:18):
standards in terms of what we do. And I also
think it's critically important and we always did this and
continue to do it today in the predator investigations to
be painstakingly transparent about our methodology.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And I mean to to.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
If you are and the listener need to know how
you get the information. They need to know the process
of your getting the information in.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
How you distill it.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
And as long as you're painfully transparent about your methodology,
you can never get yourself into trouble. You have and
then you also have this organic connection to your audience
that creates great loyalty and great man for the quality product.
And what makes me nervous about some of these vigilanti
predators out there today And I get asked about this
(22:07):
all the time, and I go on shows to talk
about it. You know, you got somebody who finds a
bad guy and they catch them, They catch them, you know,
having lunch with the teenage girls under age and they're
in a prominent position in Hollywood, and instead of creating
the situation that would lead to an effective prosecution of
potentially a bad guy, they're out there shooting with smoke
(22:29):
cannons and doing goofy stuff and committing crimes themselves for
which they could be prosecuted. And any chance of getting
evidence on this bad guy is out the window. There's
no chance of getting a warrant from his computer or
his phone to see if he's done this before, to
get the transcripts. They're out there to create clicks and
clout and create a dramatic situation and damages the credibility
(22:53):
of other people who are doing it properly. And there's
a lot of room in our society for citizen journalists.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Right. Any crimes have been crowdsourced and solved because of podcasts.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Right, everybody, he should have a voice, and YouTube and
other platforms have greatly democratized our media. It's changed the world.
But you also have to remember that every any jerk
can get on and say whatever they want, and some
of them, Alex Jones, will say outrageous things that are
(23:24):
untrue and hurtful and and and that is why the
rest of us who don't do that stuff. Need to
be self regulating and make sure that we on our
own create ethical standards that.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
You know, produce truthful.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Content, meaningful content. It could be edgy, it can be controversial,
but I think it already is by nature, right.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
It's it's already cool what we do. We don't have
to over dramatics.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
You're already catching bad guys.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
It's like, you know, let's just tell the truth about
it all. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I did actually see a couple of YouTube and I
won't even name the YouTubers, but I've seen you know
what I'm talking.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yeah, And I remember.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Actually the other day I was watching I was like,
Chris Hansen would hate this.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Is what I was thinking of.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
I was like, and you brought it up first from
like and every time I publicly about it, Yeah, yeah, crap,
And I know.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
It's like no, It's like, yeah, I was like, he
would hate this.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I hate this.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I recently did something and one of my true crime
podcasts up in Vanish which the first one I had,
and it's season four, thank you, and there was there's
a bad guy and I had enough evidence, you know,
in my opinion to think that there was a high
chance that he was. He was involved in potentially a murder,
(24:54):
and he was hard to find. It's hard to track down,
and I spent months trying to narrowed down where he was.
Finally figured out where he was. And in order to
do that, I had I had catfished them. I had
created a fake Facebook account months prior, never thinking that
it actually would work or come into play. But because
(25:15):
I had made it so early on and I had
had this conversation kind of a little bit over time,
I think he believed it to be real, even though
he was a little bit dubious. And it happened in Alaska.
The laws in Alaska or that it's a one party state,
and so I was able to legally record him, and
(25:35):
it was in a public place, and I did something
I've never done before, and I was, you know, on
the fence, ave ballot, you know, some of my team
that's in here. We debated for twenty four hours, like
do we do this, do we do that? Do we
just you know, tell him to go here and meet
this fake person? Then Paylands he shows up and I
was like, you know, like, this isn't the Chris Hanson
thing where you know they've already committed the crime. When
(25:58):
they get to you, right right exactly when I show up,
They're just gonna say fuck off.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
You know, I don't know what do you do?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
And I'm like, Okay, what am I doing this for?
Am I doing it to get that spicy SoundBite? Am
I doing it to get this podcast moment?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Which is okay?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Which is okay? But what's the next step?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
What if I pretend to be this guy? And I did.
I pretended to be this fake person, and I mean
I didn't wear like a mustache or anything, but I
tried to blend in with Alaska, like you know, snow gear.
And we met this guy at a bar that we
(26:38):
had staked out for hours, and he came into our
trap and sure enough, he talked for about two hours
and everything he said made told everyone exactly who this
person wants.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Yeah, and that is a totally legitimate method of investigative
reporting it.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
And I've done it. I mean, we've set up businesses
to lure people in to get to the.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Truth, you know, with hidden cameras around and you know,
again not really disguised, but you know, with a ball
cap on and casual classes.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah, too much. I usually think it.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Made but that's and again it's about sharing with your audience.
This is what we did, this is why we did it,
and these are the results of what happened. And that's
totally legit. That's real investigative reporting, by the way. I
mean one hundred years ago, you know up in Saint
Clair wrote you know in the Jungle about the meatpacking
(27:35):
district in business, and he went and worked there, and
you know, it's it's it's been going on a long time.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
The Chicago sometimes.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Did a great series where they opened up a bar
and and they.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Captured all the bribe taking and everything that went along
with it.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
That's how you get to the I think that people
do it less these days. I think they clicky and
so fast dateline.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
You know, for years we would do that, and then
it became more of a murder procedural, which is great,
which I still want to show, want to show all
those guys are my friends. Yeah, of course, but that's
not what I wanted to do the last twenty years of.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
My career, right.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
So, like one of my fears going into it was
and like it'd be bigger for you, because I mean,
you're Chris Hansen and yeah, I feel like you're a
recognizable figure. But I was like, man, like broth, this
guy's like, holy shit, is this that Penguins? He could
you know? Like right away? I don't know. And it
made me think, you know, have you ever just been
(28:32):
like at like a library or bookstore and just you know,
bent down to get a book and you're next to
somebody and someone catches eyes and goes, holy shit, am
I about to get cat.
Speaker 7 (28:46):
Why?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I think?
Speaker 4 (28:46):
I don't know how many guys who've been nervous for
good reason and I haven't picked up on it, but.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
It's happened, right, I'm sure that someone's creeping.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Up on somebody and you know they see it from
behind in a public place.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
But it's it's.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
I've been able to use that for my benefit because
we have asked to now though, right, yeah, we have
access to law enforcement and investigations because I've done this
for forty two years and never.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Burned its sores.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Right, nobody in law enforcement can ever say, right that
they told me something in confidence, And that's the way
to the right. It's currency in our business, yep. And
you know that because you practice it as well. But
you know you are your reputation professionally in this business,
and it continues to pay off in a great way
(29:36):
for me.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Just asking some personal advice. When I first started, you know,
I was absolutely nobody, and I was always able to
use exactly but I was able to use that to
my advantage, right, and that was you know, there's upside
to that. But once there is some sort of you know,
people know you as a little figure or it's it's
(30:00):
more likely that someone could recognize you in some sort
of way, you have to flip your method a little, right,
And so just advice from in your career. What have
you done so I can think about how I can
apply it to micros.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Well, I think as you become more well known, you
just have to shift your approach. Sure, I mean the
guy say you're Chris Hansen, use that to your advantage.
You're right, you're paying Chris Hanson. Yeah, motherfucking handso right?
Speaker 3 (30:28):
And uh, and you know you just have to, you know,
be quick on your feet and use it to your advantage.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
And again, the order you get in this business, the
more experience you have, the less you are in an
anxious rush to get it done.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I've got nothing but time. If this takes two days.
I've done got days exactly.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
You know, it's it's it's not Oh my god, I
get it. Get back by the five o'clock news.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Which was once the case, which also I think is
a tough place to tell good stories.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
I mean again, I I can't say the Golden Age,
because every age is the Golden Age, but I mean
that being golden, yeah, exactly, and it is it is
for me too. But I remember being a young reporter
in Lansing, Michigan, and the largest walled prison in the
world was Jackson Prison. And there was a riot on
(31:16):
a Friday night, and young reporter out there covering it
and breathlessly coming to the set and we got all
this video. We're talking about it and everything else. And
I was working weekends at the time. It just barely
had graduated from Michigan's We're working TV ten Action News.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Nice yeah, NBC affiliate Lansing, Michigan.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
And so we're literally sitting in the newsroom on a Sunday, Yeah,
drinking coffee, smoking cigarets.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
This is, you know, nineteen eighty back when you do that.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
Planes basically everywhere, I guess, the worst, the worst health
in the world and the phone rings in the newsroom.
No cell phones in those days, we didn't have pagers.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Phone.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Hey TV ten Action News. Chris Hansen was mister Hanson. Yes,
it was an inmate inside the prison two days after
the riot who said we've been given them from mission
to have a news conference. To Eric grievanceays, head to
Jackson Prison, all right, come on, we get our little yeah, yeah,
bring it. Everyone does is get our little TV ten
Action news you know, station, wagon off and go from
(32:14):
the Lansing bureau to Jackson, show up to let us
in the gate.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
They go to the report to the office.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
They bring us in, and the prison's like, you know,
sixty eighty years old. I mean, it's an old prison.
And we sit down a conference room and interview four
inmates and they tell us the story and I'm still
shre how the hell did this?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
This went from having a good time to doing like the.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Biggest story on that day, and they still makes the
network news and obviously make big news locally. And that
following Tuesday, the riots jump off again and the place
is burning again.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Damn.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
And they didn't let us in the second time. Okay, yeah,
but there was you know it was, you know, we
sort of were making it up as we went along.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Sure are you still doing that in a way?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yeah, I think very much.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I mean, they have you learned from anything you've done,
But like.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
It's all in the fault, you know.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
You know, I'm fortunate enough to have a conversation like
this with somebody who's curious enough to ask these questions
that provoke good answers. You know, it brings back things
that you know, it's nothing different from what we do today.
It's just different technology, different tools, but it's the same attitude.
It's like, look, I get paid to find stuff out,
but once I find it out, I share it with
(33:27):
all of you. That's my job, right And if we
can make great pictures and compelling sound and great.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Interviews, that all loes it together. But that's what we do,
find stuff out and tell the people. That's it. That's
It's that simple.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It is that simple, right. I get asked a lot, like,
you know, just kind of like the morality questions and
like you know, moral compass, like how do you decide
what's right and wrong? And like I feel like that's
such a nuanced thing. That's and I think everyone has
their own personal belief systems and different things everybody and
the you know, for you, like, what do you kind
(34:03):
of like how do you stay straight with you know,
catching a bad guy and balancing those things and what
is that for you?
Speaker 5 (34:12):
Well?
Speaker 4 (34:12):
I think the balance is always you know, tell the
truth in your reporting and don't let any personal biases clouded.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Be sure we'll ask you know all the time about
your politics, and I have the same answer. It's I'm
pro justice and it applies to somebody on one side
of the spectrum as it does to the other side
of the spectrum, and I just don't I.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Don't engage in political theater.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Sure, it's all around us, Yeah, and you can argue
as to whether it's good or bad or someplace in between.
But to me, it's it's you know, we're seekers of
the truth, we're witnesses to the truth, we're documentars of history,
and as long as you're just it's it's about being
painfully obvious, in transparent about your methodology and if if
(34:58):
something ends up being different than you thought, then you
follow that path.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And as long as you stay on the path and
you don't find the truth finding the truth, you know
it may not.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
You may not get the answer in part one. But
if you bring the viewer along on your journey of
discovery and take them inside the commission of a crime
or inside a situation, that is also our job. And
I think that's become the signature part of my reporting
(35:29):
is that we bring people inside this, we take you along.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
It's very in the process your exactly you get the
problem is or one of them I see is that. Yeah,
Like I also like to stay like, you know, the
goal is to find the truth. But the difficult part
of that is that sometimes the journey to finding the
truth is an ugly one.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
It is ugly or the truth itself is very ugly
to joke around in the early days, you know, news
is not pretty.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Right, So like, how do you factor in that?
Speaker 4 (36:00):
I think, you know, you have to use a certain
amount of good taste and judgment in terms of what's
too much depending on which platform you're reporting from. I
can be much more graphic in my podcast when I
get into transcripts of predators I've caught and what they
said and done, because I know who's tuning in and
(36:20):
what they want to hear. When it's uh, you know,
a documentary on mainstream television. You know, our sensibilities have
to be a little different based upon the audience. We
don't shade it, but you know, I may, I'm aware,
you're just aware. I may see something you know, from
a transcript that I wouldn't say on this stage, like
(36:41):
what like you know, a characterization of a word you
wouldn't say normally in public.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I don't really get what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, I think you do say the bad word.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
But again, you know, if you feel uncomfortable saying it,
than in all likelihood people are going.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
To be uncomfortable. They might not like to hear it.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
And again, I'll go to that very edge on the
podcast because I know and if I sanitize it too much,
I'll hear from my audience.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Hey, that's not why we do this, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yes, you know, yes, can we admit that being on
South Park is totally a flex?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Very cool?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
You know, they don't tell you when they do that.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
I'm out in San Francisco going to shoot the night
at air and one of my agents text me and says,
South Park is doing your tonight because the East Coast
time I was on West he.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Said, it's pretty funny, and about twenty minutes later, you're taking.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
A dark turn You're like, oh boy.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Yeah, it was funny because you know, my older kids
were in high school at the time, and you know,
they're at a high school where.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Having a dad on TV wasn't a big deal.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
There were other dads on TV, their dads who you know,
owned you know, sporting teams and were captains of industry
and hedge fonds and everything.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
But when dude, your dad was on Salt Park last
night happened, that was you know, I was at a
whole level of yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Next level shit. I liked that a lot.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
It was right up there at the top.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Do you ever think about your legacy?
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I do sometimes.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Is that important to you?
Speaker 3 (38:21):
I think it is.
Speaker 4 (38:22):
I think anybody who's lived their life in the public
eye for so many years, you know, you want to
leave a legacy beyond you know, the number of Emmys
you've gotten.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Or Edward Armor.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
What is the legacy to you?
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Legacy to me is being remembered as somebody who worked
hard to tell the truth and who made at least
an incremental difference in the safety and goodness in society.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
You know, if you leave this.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
World, you know, a little better off than when you
got here, through your reporting, through your storytelling, if you entertained,
if you educated, if you you know, put some bad
guys away. You know, I'm fine with that. If that's
the legacy, that's great. I'm happy with that.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
What's next for you, Well, I'll be back out in
the streets next week. You know. Well, we got some
of that, and we get these other documentaries that are fascinating.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
We've got a dozen documentaries, ranging from the fentanyl story
I told you about in San Francisco and around the country, to.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
The traditional predator shoots, the takedown stories, to other crime documentaries.
Sextortion is one.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
We really have broadened our ability to get story ideas
from folks like you who reach out on social media,
and because I don't have to be limited by this
traditional network structure, all the meetings and bureaucracy, if I
see something that's hot and moving, I can jump on
it right away. Now, it may be a year before
(39:53):
it gets on TV because of our production schedule or
because the story takes that long to tell, but if
it needs to be on right a way, I can
get it on right away and I've got my own.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Network, so you can.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Basically, basically you're saying.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
If if I saw something tonight, it can be on Monday.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
So you can kind of do what you you want.
So can I come on your show? I just want
to be like in the back seat, like yeah, yeah,
go good on, Chris. This is crazy, Like.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
We need we do need to collaborate on something.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It would be fun.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I'm getting like five different ideas as we sit here
at stage, but I mean that you.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Stay there and smoking cigarette or whatever, eat your sandwich.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
And I would love to and we'll do it. I'm
already the wheels are spinning right now.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
We're going to collaborate and.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
I'm not on a bad guys do it.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, we're going to put you toward Yeah exactly. We
have a couple of minutes left, and I figured just
because everyone is such a fan of yours. I don't
know if we have mics or not, but like if
they wanted to ask a couple of questions, I feel
like it'd be cool to do that. We have like
five minutes talk, so I don't know how we do this. Hi,
(41:05):
Hi laugh, Hello O, Okay, it's me there's actually a.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Life back there.
Speaker 7 (41:10):
But yeah, Chris help them out.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Wait wait what Hi?
Speaker 7 (41:15):
My name's Kathy and it's nice to meet y'all. I'm
a zero chance of the meeting greet, so this is
my chance. So I have a question. As someone who
has probably the best chance of getting a straight answer
from a woman who's a heinous murderer, I've got one
(41:37):
shot at getting the actual truth as to why she
did it. We have a long history and we know
each other very well. What would you say, other than
feel out their personality would be the best way to
get it?
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Well, I guess i'd start, uh, you know, with an
open ended question, and what I would say, Look, you're
in this situation.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
You know that. I know that.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Help me to understand why. Everybody's got a reason. And
if I understand it, then you know I can I
can better accept it or forgive it. But you need
to be honest with it. Just tell me what happened, right,
Give me that piece, don't attack create and the best
(42:31):
interrogators of terrorists and criminals are guys that initiate a conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
And a relationship. If you want a cigarette, do you
want some soup? You want a cup of coffee. What
can I get you? And just look, we're both here, right,
You're not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Just just help me out, give me some peace, help
me to understand what led you to this situation and
what led you to do what you do, and let
them take a deep breath and hold please.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
They tell you the truth.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Damn well, he's a.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
I mean right, absolutely Again, Sometimes it's it's just explained
it to me and don't rush through it.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Just you know, spend some time.
Speaker 7 (43:14):
And if I had to ask anything, what would be
your favorite, most important question that you would ask somebody
other than why the hell did you do that?
Speaker 3 (43:26):
You know, I guess I'd ask you know, what is it?
What what happened to you that made you think this
was a good idea to do?
Speaker 7 (43:36):
Gotcha?
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Or why are you the way that you are?
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Right? Exactly exactly.
Speaker 7 (43:43):
Well, thank you very much, Thank.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
You, Thank you, Chris A big fan. Thank you.
Speaker 8 (43:49):
I did want to ask a question about the new
new phenomenon with the daily, so I was going to
get I met you yesterday, so I was you got
a phone call, so I wanted to ask you in person.
But the almost daily reports of female predators and pedophiles,
and there seems to be a different narrative when it
comes to female abusers. They call it affairs a romantic
(44:14):
relationship when a female abuses a child and essentially as
a pedophile, just the same as men are. But yet
when it's a male as the victim. I'm curious. I
don't believe you. Have you ever caught a female? Do
you target or do you target only men? And why
do you think it's so hard to catch? Because we've
(44:35):
seen how many female predators there are in the news
every day, there's almost a new report of particularly teachers,
but they're all in the community. How come it's hard
to catch female predators online?
Speaker 4 (44:50):
The experts tell us, the behavioral folks tell us, the
therapists tell us that it's because when it comes to
the female predator, they don't like the anonymity of the
online engagements.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
It's happened. It's never happened in our investigations, but it
has happened. And what you're more likely to see is
what you alluded to, what we see virtually every.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
Week, which is a female teacher, teacher's assistant, counselor therapist
engaged in an inappropriate sexual relationship with an underage boy.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
And society does view that. They don't like that.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
They like to know the victim of the target, and
again part of society views that as a little boy's fantasy,
which is wrong because it is illegal and it has
a very definite impact on this child's life. And why
we see all these cases now, I have a couple
of theories. One, I think in the criminal area, you
(45:42):
often see what is being exploited on the porn sites.
Every time we catch a predator who's offended before, there's
a very high likelihood that they've been associated with child porn.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
In some of these cases.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
There's a for instance, a big rise in teacher schoolboy.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Porn on these sites.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
There's a big hike in the amount of step mom
daughter porn and stepfather. It was just crazy to think about,
but it does, and I think that breeds some of
this real life activity and we see that in our stings.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
But the female predators like.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
To know their victim, target their victim, and you know,
I think that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Now. We've commissioned a documentary on.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
It because it is such a huge issue, so there'll
be more on that soon.
Speaker 5 (46:37):
Hi, my name's Vicky. Thank you so much for everything
that you do. You guys were talking about legacy, and
I think a lot of people that come to crime
con we're just general folks and we're just going about
our day, but we admire everything that you all do
for society. And I think a lot of us kind
of sit home and think what can we do? What
can we do? We're not you know, we're not in
(46:59):
the public eye. I were just regular people, and so
what could you say advice for all of us if
we want to get involved, if we want to, what
can we do to kind of be able to make
an impact, even albeit very small, but anything at all, Like,
what can we do?
Speaker 6 (47:16):
Well?
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I think it starts at home.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
It starts in the conversations you have with your children,
your nieces, your nephews, you know, your friend's kids, who
often will tell you stuff that they won't tell their
immediate parents.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And so to have an open conversation and.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
To say, you know, I heard a great story or
actually not a great story, but an interesting story.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
The other day, after the sex Station is Sextortion presentation.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
A gentleman went out to call his seventeen year old
son and say, hey, I.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Just was in this thing. I didn't know anything about it.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
You know, you should know about it because dad had
happened to me when I was fourteen and fortunately didn't
lead to you know, a violent act. But yeah, some
guy tried to do this to me and I never told.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
You about it because I was embarrassed.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
You said, oh my god, son, you know, please know
that you can tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
But again, it's awareness.
Speaker 4 (48:00):
It's it's you know, when you see something that you
think is wrong, or you see something online reported to
the to the to the internet service provider, reported to
the local police, and it may not come to anything,
but at least you generate another element of that database
that one day might be important.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
And connect the dots to another crime.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
Just you know, it sounds corny, but if you see something,
say something you know.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Man to me, it's like you being here right now
and asking that question is.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
Probably already part of that. That's a sense of aware.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
It is right because not everyone's doing that. And like
when I get asked like the legacy question, which is
not that often, but I I don't really know what
to think about that. Maybe like down the road, I'll
look back.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
On it more tory about that.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Yeah, he's like you little shrimp. But I I I'm
so focused on right now and like making sure that's
okay and those things become legacy. It comes about what's
happened already.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
I didn't know what it meant when I was your age, right,
But I.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Think what you're doing now, I think is like that
is there you go. That's already a start asking questions
and learning, and to be honest, that's literally all I'm
still doing. So if that means anything, that's that's what
I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
This young lady in the front row keeps trying to
get our attention.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Oh yes, hey.
Speaker 8 (49:30):
Maybe by.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
Law never not once it may have happened at some point.
I certainly can't speak.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Like if it was someone's friend or something, but friend
but not something conspiracy that we're protecting pedophile.
Speaker 4 (49:57):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I I get I you
know kind of how.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
A teenage Yeah.
Speaker 7 (50:03):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
The investigation, I mean you can.
Speaker 7 (50:08):
Invest in or and the investigation that went forward, and
a lot of it seems to me because.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
His arms had been heard.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Enough like other things in your lives and the powers he.
Speaker 6 (50:23):
Said, and you let it go.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
Yeah, he he's young enough.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Uh, probably totally gets your ure watching him when you will.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Yeah, I mean I've heard of scenarios like that.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
I know the one you're talking about, but I I
don't have first hand knowledge that I I'm looking into
a couple of situations never happened to me though.
Speaker 6 (50:47):
Yes, right, sorry, No, we gotta go so real quick.
Thank you both for everything else done. I'm like fangirling
right now.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (50:55):
But so knowing what you know. We know about sex
crimes being the worst thing that could happen to a child,
and then the psychological effects, suicide rates, et cetera. The laws,
A lot of the people that you do catch, especially
if it's their first time that year coming in and
they didn't do the act. It's probation and the sex
offender list, and we know just from all these documentaries
(51:16):
like three Sex Offenders. We're working at Nickelodeon, you know,
and so it's just like with all of them being
around us at all times and just living on the streets.
I'm just wondering what the evolution of the law, if
you've seen it over your years doing this, the laws
cracking down harder. I think it's frustrating, and why the
vigilantes kind of step in is because most of them
(51:38):
get little to no time probation and then sex offendry list. Sarah,
I'm just curious if there's getting any better with the
laws state to state.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
It does vary from state to state, and I know
that you know, one guy can do the same thing
in Polk County, Florida and go away for two years,
and can do it someplace else and get As you said,
probation and registration is a sex offender And the truth
of it is, it does vary in jurisdictions. If you're
in Genesee County, Flint, Michigan, where there are one hundred
(52:10):
murders waiting to be prosecuted, and you've got a first
time offender who've got contonesting who's willing to plead and
go one probation, go to sex offender you know, therapy,
and go on on the list, They're likely to take
that and mark it down as a conviction. Should this
guy go.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Away forever, you know that's prole and probation. Folks have
to court services have to take.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
A look at that and score them as to whether
or not they'll offend again when they do, it's horrendous
and it creates, you know, a horrible impact on society,
and it makes the system re examine itself I as
you might imagine, and more for the send them to
jail for a bit, you know, get their attention, and
(52:53):
if it's a second offense, they should go away forever.
But we have gone from seeing stings in California where
the judges treated this as a you know, a TV
reality show.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
Even though law enforcement was involved too. You know, some
of these guys, if they've been clipped before, they will
go away for a long time.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
And and we've seen some thirty year sentences and some
heavy duty sentences if if there's more than one offense here.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
So it's not perfect. I'm not happy with all the jurisdictions.
Speaker 4 (53:25):
I provide my services and my input whenever I can
to get greater sentences, and you know, you sometimes just
hope for the best.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Thank you, thank you, well, thank you guys. You've been amazing.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
I appreciate it. But it's always a pleasure. It's it's
easy with you. Thanks. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 9 (53:52):
Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and
iHeart Podcast created and hosted by Paynton Lindsay. For Tenorfoot TV,
executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive
producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup
(54:12):
and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,
Sean Nerney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wild for Cohedo. Production
support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing
and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover
art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website
(54:33):
Talking to Death podcast dot com.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.
This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you
want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe
to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus
dot com
Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to
you absolutely free. But if you want ad free listening
and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot
com or on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and
iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to Talking to Death. I'm Dylan Harrington, producer
of the show. On today's episode, we are continuing our
conversations from Crime Con and today's guest. If you're a
fan of true crime or you're a fan of crime TV,
you'll know the name Chris Hansen. Chris Hansen is an
investigative journalist, most well known for his hit show To
(00:41):
Catch a Predator. I grew up with it. I know,
Pain and Mike did. I'm sure a lot of you
did as well. Chris has done a ton of work
to clean up the streets, both figuratively and literally. In
his career, He's been responsible for putting hundreds of pedophiles
behind bars. Pain had an opportunity I need to be
on stage with Chris and they had a really great conversation.
(01:03):
Chris opened up about some of his most compelling investigations,
the ethical dilemmas of undercover journalism, and they talk about
the evolving landscape of online crime and how it's portrayed
on social media. Both Pain and Chris also talk about
investigative journalism and the strides that each of them have
made to put criminals behind bars. It's a fascinating conversation
(01:25):
when you definitely don't want to miss. It's funny, it's insightful,
and toward the end of the conversation, Chris and Pain
both take questions from the audience. So let's jump right
into it. Today's guest is Chris Hansen.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Seek Chris, I'm sorry, I thought that was gonna be
so funny if I could just get.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
He's busier than me, you got to get up early
in the mornings.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Clearly he's a nice guy. But yeah, I just I've
watched so many of your videos and I want to
know what keeps you ticking, because it isn't easy to
go and stake out and deal with these people, and
it's got to be scary. A lot of elements, like
(02:30):
outside of the good that you're doing as a human
being who has a life, has a wife, Like how
do you keep doing it man, and what keeps you ticking?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Well, you know, I'm a curious guy and I have
a lot of energy, and we do a lot of
different projects, right, So it's not all the.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Takedown predator investigations.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
You know, we'll be in San Francisco investigating the illegal
hunter and immigrants bringing fentanyl in and making millions of
and shipping it back to build mansions in their homeland.
So I get to do a lot of different documentaries
and a lot of them well they're all crime r
one way or another. But intellectually it's very engaging to
me to delve into all these different subjects. And I've
(03:17):
just accepted the mantle of the predator investigations as something
that I will always do as long as I am
in this business because it is what people expect from me.
It's something I believe that's important to continue to create
awareness in a dialogue, to remind parents and kids that
(03:40):
this can be out there and that this is a
constantly evolving crime which requires constantly reviewing and reporting on.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It because it does change.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
It's very different than when I started twenty years ago,
and not just because my hair is gray now and
it wasn't what I.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Started, well, it's always been great for the last five years.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Okay, I mean you pull off so well. I couldn't tell.
I mean, I'm grand too.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Us is by design.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I'm sure you put a little design here.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
You got to take the brass oness. But no, so
I've accepted that long time ago.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Look, the truth is, in the very beginning, there were
people who turned their nose up at this particular franchise
because it was different, it was edgy.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
We worked closely ultimately with law enforcement, and it was different. Yeah,
and we took some heat for that.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And I like in the view of like this is.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Traditional, not so much that, but traditional journalists were like,
this is different, this is scary.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
This has become a part of pop culture.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
And I can't help that it became a part of
pop culture. I can't control if South Park does a parody.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Of Chris Hansen and the Pier Investigation. You can't.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
So you can either be afraid of it or you
can embrace it for all the good that it carries.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
With it, which it does.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
And now we're in the third generation of people who
follow this content from the beginning to the work that
we do today at True Blue by streaming Crime Network.
And the beauty of having your own network is that
I don't have to sit in a meetings and b
meetings and green light meetings. I make one phone call
to our headquarters in Cleveland, and I could dispatch crews
(05:23):
around the world and do whatever story I want to
do and own the content and own the distribution of
the content. Finally, so we have it on True Blue,
which we own, We put it on Fox News, we
put it on Fox Nation.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Ultimately some of these documentaries, we hope.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
And so we have these multiple platforms along with what
we do on social media.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So it doesn't get any better than that for a.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Guy at my stage of this business and in my
evolution in this business, I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Forty two years, it's like, let the guy do his thing, right. Yeah,
it's amazing how much, But it's you.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Know, I have to give props to the network because
you know, without twenty one years at NBC and doing
Crimewatch daily and local news, I wouldn't have the platform,
the identity, the brand, yes to do this and all
those experiences you know, working for the man if you will,
you know, yes.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
That gives me.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Well, it was great, you know, but it just again,
it's part of my evolution as well.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Why do you think that there are so many predators
like that? And I mean specifically pedophiles, and in forty
two years you seem to think that maybe it's even
gotten worse in some way. And so from a psychological standpoint,
(06:44):
just from what you've seen, you know, and half these
people look kind of normal when you're just seeing on
the surface, right, So what's your take on that?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
My take is it's the availability, right, It's there are
thirty of these.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Guys who are hardcore predators, pedophiles who do this with
or without the Internet. They'd be the bad coach, the
bad step dad.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Guy hanging out lurking around the food court of them
all that you're never going to get rid of that.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And then you've got a younger.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Group who's so immersed in digital culture that they've become
four chan, eight chan kind of all that, all that stuff,
and they don't they wouldn't say things in real life
that they say online, and they blur this this age difference.
So you got a twenty one year old talking to
(07:35):
somebody that they think is a thirteen year old and
they think, well, it's only seven years.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
You know, it's Romeo and Juliet, and.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
They justify it, and then they come for it because
they don't have the ability to speak to somebody in person.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
And that's bad, that's horrible.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I don't think there's a big difference in terms of
criminal impact. Sure, between a twenty one year old and
a sixty one year old, it's the same crime.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You're an adult, but you can understand it better. Then
there's this guy in between, this third category.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
The doctor we caught, you know, sixty one year old
guy well Off drives his range rover over to have
sex with a teenage girl after communicating with her while
he sees eighteen patients in his practice. You know, we
saw that, and the guy gets caught, and he ultimately
sat down to do a long interview with me.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's not true blue now, but.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
What he said, he said he had a sickness, he
was addicted to porn. He really didn't care that the
girl was under age. He was just looking for any
kind of sex he could find, and he found this girl. Now,
I'm sure he's shaded this.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
That sounds like he's he's glossing it over, for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
But he also did not have any evidence of child
porn or any previous arrests of doing this. He admitted
to online prostitution and engaging in call girl services, but
there was no evidence that he had gone under age before,
and so a judge took that into consideration when he
sentenced him to probation. And he had already in registration
(08:54):
as a sex offender, and he'd already lost his practice,
and you know, you know, had serious probert almost with
his family as you would expect. But there's a guy
who can, probably with treatment, not only not reoffend, but
go out and tell other people on the verge of offending,
don't do this.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, you know. And I know that we have been
a deterrent with these investigations, and might I think guys
are afraid.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Guys have become aware of their own, you know, weaknesses
and their own flaws. And I get letters from the
podcast listeners all the time from guys who say, look,
I am inclined to be sexually attracted to minors. I
know that's wrong. I don't act on it. I go
(09:43):
to therapy every week. My partner knows this and is supportive,
and I know I'm not going to offend.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
But when you read that.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
What do you think it's it's it's it's a little creepy,
to be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
It's I think it's brave on their parts. Do it?
They always do it? You know? He said, I know
you can find out.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
About killing somebody, and I didn't and said, okay, well
let's let's let's not kill that person right.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Right, and maybe we can write exactly.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
And they're very reticent to come on the show because
they don't want to be identified, but I do share
the letters.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
With my listeners on the podcast. Interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Well, I think it's it's important because anything that takes
you inside the mind of a predator, whether it's you know,
the predators and our takedown investigations or you know, other
predatory crimes, the more you understand that mindset, the better
you can protect all of you, all.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Of us from becoming victims of crimes.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
And so I think it's an important understanding, And every
time I do it, we dig a little deeper into
the different personas these guys represent.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
What kind of predators are there out there?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
To you? Well, I think any predator who tries to
violate a.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Child is the worst of them all. But in our
sextortion and investigation. We talked about this on Friday at
our session, and we've got a big documentary going out
about this. We've got guys in Nigeria who are con artists.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Who poses teenage girls. They have pretty pictures.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
They target young men fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, you know, young
men or young men, and they send one of these
hot girl pictures and ask for one of the boy
he sends it.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Then they start the extortion.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
They demand money and they get caught up in this
and these kids sadly don't see a way out, and
in many cases, sadly they commit suicide.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
And I've sat over the last year with four.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Different sets of parents Northern Michigan, California, South Carolina, Ohio
who lost a good kid, athlete, good grades, getting ready
to go off to college, to suicide because they couldn't
see their way out of this.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Short term situation.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
And it's as if a guy in Nigeria came all
the way into market at Michigan, came through an unlocked
door at a nice family house and.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Killed this kid. That's what this is.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
But because it's so far away, they don't often get
prosecuted in this case for the first time I'm aware of.
They were able to go over there, find three guys,
bring them back to the United States, and they pleaded guilty.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
In their prison.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Right now, I know, good jobbing then, but this guy.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
It all comes down to, you know, if you ask
any one of those parents, and I spent and it's
heartbreaking paid to sit in the home with these parents.
Were their son, who's just like one of my sons, right,
just made a mistake and got caught up in this
is because these guys preyed upon them and knew how
to push the buttons. And this poor mother and father
(12:44):
have to do this and do this interview down the
hall from the room where it happened. And I looked
at these parents. I said, I, you know, I got
to tell you I'm a tough guy, but I don't
know that I could survive this the way you survived it.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And it really, I mean, it's from parent to parents.
Suddenly you're not the.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Journalists so much as you are as a fellow parent,
you know, and Johnshall tell you about that like.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Kids like does that has that changed your viewpoint?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I think it's it's given me a greater understanding And
what is that and what is it? Because you understand
the kids can screw up, and you understand that you
have to tell them that you know they're going to
mess up, and in first and foremost, you need to
come to me and let's work on this together. If
any of these kids, these four kids we profile had
(13:32):
come to their dad and say, hey, look, I'm paris
to tell you this. I sent some pictures of my
junk and I don't I'm worried Granma's going to see
them because the're gona send them money, you know, you knucklehead,
don't do it again.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Send yeah, save the text, give them to the local
sheriff's department, the local peace department.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
And don't give them any more money. Just stop talking
to him, and in two weeks this whole thing is over.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
It's we're going to tease you about it at Thanksgiving
dinner when you're thirty. Yeah, because you did something sad
it's a non event.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
But in the moment of an underdeveloped adolescent's brain, they
don't get that.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So we yeah, we see these parents and like you
you can see your son or something in this city.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Are all good kids. They're handsome kids. They look like
what are my kids.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, and it just it really, but if it impacts
the way you tell the story, and if you can
put that emotion along with the intellectual integrity into it,
you can get people's attention. And if you save one kid,
you win, right, if you save a thousand kids, you.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Change the world.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
So what do you tell to parents like that? You
gotta have the discussion. The same thing I tell when
it comes to, you know, online safety, when when your
son or daughter first goes on the internet, you have
to have an age appropriate conversation about the potential dangers.
And it starts very simply with there are grown ups
out there who like to trick kids.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Kids don't like to be tricked.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So, you know, unless you know that person in real life,
you don't know whether it's a grown up. You know,
some fifty five year old fat guy down in his
basement in his underwear, right, you know, the worst surrounded
by pizza boxes. You know, you don't know that it's
and this stuff happens, you know, but you got it.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That's what I always picture they are.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Yeah, well and you should because nine out of ten
times that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
But you got to you got to.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Reach them in a non intimidating creer. You can't just
yell at them and scare them. And you know, the
whole thing I thought, you parent, you trick them into
doing what you want them to do and make them
think it's their idea, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Right, that's kind of the basic rule I think.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I mean, I was joking outside before in the green
room before you got in here, when we're putting these
mics on, I was like, how many times did you
put you put this mic on? Is kind of how
to do this? And like I joked like probably one
hundred thousand, where I was like, probably like a million,
and I was like, yeah, I probably understand it.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
You know, We've been blessed have done some really heavy
duty stories around the world over the years, and two
that stick out our child slave labor and the soap
business in India where we went under cover with business
people and went to China to do counterfeit medicines and
did the whole thing. And in China they don't have
the same open mindedness about journalists that we know. So yeah,
(16:22):
so I can't go back because I'm on a list.
We went as executives of ge.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Being exactly, but we you know, we uncovered it.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
We had set up what would have been a ten
million dollar buy of you know, fake.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Vire ever and some people went to prison in China.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
But we were in Cambodia doing a story on underage
brothels and Americans, so Western Europeans going them sex tourism essentially, and.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
We were all wired up and taped up. And you know,
it's hard to get help right away in India or Cambodia.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
They'll get you out, yeah, but it's not like yeah,
serriffs down the street ready.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
And right thought, hey, I need to right over here.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
And you know it's a little more intense when you
go over there and have to imagine it's.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
It's quite an experience. And it prepared me for the
predator stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
You know, at the end of how many predators do
you think that you have caught? I think were there
any predators like left that you think you need to catch.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
We'll find out in the next.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Couple of weeks because we'll be back out there. But
I would say we're around six hundred six hundred in
the predator investigations. And you know, the way we do it,
and because we've evolved to continue to collaborate with law
enforcement to make sure these cases are very well prosecutable,
and we've got to be at a ninety five success
(17:45):
rate prosecution wise.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Do you think that you are the best predator catcher?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I think so there is I do too.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You've done so much good work with this and that
it's it's created this sort of way where I was
going through Instagram, I was like, is he with Jake
paul Ers and Logan Paul I'm like that. I was
like I felt like I was in like the matrix
or something.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Well, Logan's a great guy, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
He he had reached out and it was before his
fight with Dylan Danis and Dannis was trolling and that
was like pardon to.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Be and he said, hey, I got this crazy idea.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Would you come to Manchester, England where I love this
and we're going to do the news conference and I'm
going to say I'm going to take down this predator
in the ring. And Dannis was really trolling the fiance
hard and heavy, inappropriately and potentially you know, gray area legality,
and so I'm going to introduce you as the you know,
the the most renowned predator catcher and he's going to
(18:50):
help me take this down. So We're in Manchester and
I'm wearing my true blue hoodie with all the cure on,
just promoting, you know, shamelessly or network, and I will.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Go cool, look like a superhero.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I walk out there and I got cruise there.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
The whole team went, and Dannis is like, because he's
talking smack you know this whole time He's like and.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
He's like, is that an actor? Is that really? Christians
going to need you to have a seat right over there,
slack jaw.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
His team was ultimately cool with me, you know, but
but they were kind of scared for a second. Well, yeah,
they were stun and it was brilliant on Logan's part.
I mean, look, the Paul brothers are like you. They
understand like me because they understand, they understand that they
understand this world, this media.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
You know, in a good rush, you get it.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You know, you get it at a.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Level much higher than a lot of your period, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I mean, they did.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
It, they killed that.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
They were great at that. Yeah, I would like to
know as an investigative journalist, you know, so much has
changed in the true crime space since you first started.
I think that you're one of the originators of like
you were even saying, like when you first came out,
you were getting pushed back like this isn't traditional news,
(20:04):
and you know you kind of ruffle the feathers, breaking
the mold. And now that's like you kept doing that
and you you helped normalize that, and you know, I
look at that and the grant seame of things you
go back to you and then to podcasting, and there's
just been iterations of this. You know, when I first
made up and vanished, you know, I got shipped for
(20:27):
being the guy who shouldn't be doing this, and.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Now like, what's your pedigree?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, I'm like I don't have one.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Why not mean? Right?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
But now that's like a trope. It's like that's like
a job if you you know, fail college. Why I
always I could be a true crime podcaster. I guess right,
And I'm like, wow, what did it get there? But
I want to know your thoughts on just the evolution
of everything and where you think you should go next
as someone who I think has laid the foundation and
(20:54):
done it right.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Well, I think that's a great question, and I think
you know, we'll continue or we should continue to exploit
When I say exploit, I mean in a good way
the technology that is out there. Sure, And look, we're
in an industry that is largely self regulated, right, and
so it's very important for us to hold high ethical
(21:18):
standards in terms of what we do. And I also
think it's critically important and we always did this and
continue to do it today in the predator investigations to
be painstakingly transparent about our methodology.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And I mean to to.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
If you are and the listener need to know how
you get the information. They need to know the process
of your getting the information in.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
How you distill it.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
And as long as you're painfully transparent about your methodology,
you can never get yourself into trouble. You have and
then you also have this organic connection to your audience
that creates great loyalty and great man for the quality product.
And what makes me nervous about some of these vigilanti
predators out there today And I get asked about this
(22:07):
all the time, and I go on shows to talk
about it. You know, you got somebody who finds a
bad guy and they catch them, They catch them, you know,
having lunch with the teenage girls under age and they're
in a prominent position in Hollywood, and instead of creating
the situation that would lead to an effective prosecution of
potentially a bad guy, they're out there shooting with smoke
(22:29):
cannons and doing goofy stuff and committing crimes themselves for
which they could be prosecuted. And any chance of getting
evidence on this bad guy is out the window. There's
no chance of getting a warrant from his computer or
his phone to see if he's done this before, to
get the transcripts. They're out there to create clicks and
clout and create a dramatic situation and damages the credibility
(22:53):
of other people who are doing it properly. And there's
a lot of room in our society for citizen journalists.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Right. Any crimes have been crowdsourced and solved because of podcasts.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Right, everybody, he should have a voice, and YouTube and
other platforms have greatly democratized our media. It's changed the world.
But you also have to remember that every any jerk
can get on and say whatever they want, and some
of them, Alex Jones, will say outrageous things that are
(23:24):
untrue and hurtful and and and that is why the
rest of us who don't do that stuff. Need to
be self regulating and make sure that we on our
own create ethical standards that.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
You know, produce truthful.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Content, meaningful content. It could be edgy, it can be controversial,
but I think it already is by nature, right.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
It's it's already cool what we do. We don't have
to over dramatics.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
You're already catching bad guys.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
It's like, you know, let's just tell the truth about
it all. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I did actually see a couple of YouTube and I
won't even name the YouTubers, but I've seen you know
what I'm talking.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yeah, And I remember.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Actually the other day I was watching I was like,
Chris Hansen would hate this.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Is what I was thinking of.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
I was like, and you brought it up first from
like and every time I publicly about it, Yeah, yeah, crap,
And I know.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
It's like no, It's like, yeah, I was like, he
would hate this.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I hate this.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I recently did something and one of my true crime
podcasts up in Vanish which the first one I had,
and it's season four, thank you, and there was there's
a bad guy and I had enough evidence, you know,
in my opinion to think that there was a high
chance that he was. He was involved in potentially a murder,
(24:54):
and he was hard to find. It's hard to track down,
and I spent months trying to narrowed down where he was.
Finally figured out where he was. And in order to
do that, I had I had catfished them. I had
created a fake Facebook account months prior, never thinking that
it actually would work or come into play. But because
(25:15):
I had made it so early on and I had
had this conversation kind of a little bit over time,
I think he believed it to be real, even though
he was a little bit dubious. And it happened in Alaska.
The laws in Alaska or that it's a one party state,
and so I was able to legally record him, and
(25:35):
it was in a public place, and I did something
I've never done before, and I was, you know, on
the fence, ave ballot, you know, some of my team
that's in here. We debated for twenty four hours, like
do we do this, do we do that? Do we
just you know, tell him to go here and meet
this fake person? Then Paylands he shows up and I
was like, you know, like, this isn't the Chris Hanson
thing where you know they've already committed the crime. When
(25:58):
they get to you, right right exactly when I show up,
They're just gonna say fuck off.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
You know, I don't know what do you do?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
And I'm like, Okay, what am I doing this for?
Am I doing it to get that spicy SoundBite? Am
I doing it to get this podcast moment?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Which is okay?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Which is okay? But what's the next step?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
What if I pretend to be this guy? And I did.
I pretended to be this fake person, and I mean
I didn't wear like a mustache or anything, but I
tried to blend in with Alaska, like you know, snow gear.
And we met this guy at a bar that we
(26:38):
had staked out for hours, and he came into our
trap and sure enough, he talked for about two hours
and everything he said made told everyone exactly who this
person wants.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Yeah, and that is a totally legitimate method of investigative
reporting it.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
And I've done it. I mean, we've set up businesses
to lure people in to get to the.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Truth, you know, with hidden cameras around and you know,
again not really disguised, but you know, with a ball
cap on and casual classes.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah, too much. I usually think it.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Made but that's and again it's about sharing with your audience.
This is what we did, this is why we did it,
and these are the results of what happened. And that's
totally legit. That's real investigative reporting, by the way. I
mean one hundred years ago, you know up in Saint
Clair wrote you know in the Jungle about the meatpacking
(27:35):
district in business, and he went and worked there, and
you know, it's it's it's been going on a long time.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
The Chicago sometimes.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Did a great series where they opened up a bar
and and they.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Captured all the bribe taking and everything that went along
with it.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
That's how you get to the I think that people
do it less these days. I think they clicky and
so fast dateline.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
You know, for years we would do that, and then
it became more of a murder procedural, which is great,
which I still want to show, want to show all
those guys are my friends. Yeah, of course, but that's
not what I wanted to do the last twenty years of.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
My career, right.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
So, like one of my fears going into it was
and like it'd be bigger for you, because I mean,
you're Chris Hansen and yeah, I feel like you're a
recognizable figure. But I was like, man, like broth, this
guy's like, holy shit, is this that Penguins? He could
you know? Like right away? I don't know. And it
made me think, you know, have you ever just been
(28:32):
like at like a library or bookstore and just you know,
bent down to get a book and you're next to
somebody and someone catches eyes and goes, holy shit, am
I about to get cat.
Speaker 7 (28:46):
Why?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I think?
Speaker 4 (28:46):
I don't know how many guys who've been nervous for
good reason and I haven't picked up on it, but.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
It's happened, right, I'm sure that someone's creeping.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Up on somebody and you know they see it from
behind in a public place.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
But it's it's.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
I've been able to use that for my benefit because
we have asked to now though, right, yeah, we have
access to law enforcement and investigations because I've done this
for forty two years and never.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Burned its sores.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Right, nobody in law enforcement can ever say, right that
they told me something in confidence, And that's the way
to the right. It's currency in our business, yep. And
you know that because you practice it as well. But
you know you are your reputation professionally in this business,
and it continues to pay off in a great way
(29:36):
for me.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Just asking some personal advice. When I first started, you know,
I was absolutely nobody, and I was always able to
use exactly but I was able to use that to
my advantage, right, and that was you know, there's upside
to that. But once there is some sort of you know,
people know you as a little figure or it's it's
(30:00):
more likely that someone could recognize you in some sort
of way, you have to flip your method a little, right,
And so just advice from in your career. What have
you done so I can think about how I can
apply it to micros.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Well, I think as you become more well known, you
just have to shift your approach. Sure, I mean the
guy say you're Chris Hansen, use that to your advantage.
You're right, you're paying Chris Hanson. Yeah, motherfucking handso right?
Speaker 3 (30:28):
And uh, and you know you just have to, you know,
be quick on your feet and use it to your advantage.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
And again, the order you get in this business, the
more experience you have, the less you are in an
anxious rush to get it done.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I've got nothing but time. If this takes two days.
I've done got days exactly.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
You know, it's it's it's not Oh my god, I
get it. Get back by the five o'clock news.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Which was once the case, which also I think is
a tough place to tell good stories.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
I mean again, I I can't say the Golden Age,
because every age is the Golden Age, but I mean
that being golden, yeah, exactly, and it is it is
for me too. But I remember being a young reporter
in Lansing, Michigan, and the largest walled prison in the
world was Jackson Prison. And there was a riot on
(31:16):
a Friday night, and young reporter out there covering it
and breathlessly coming to the set and we got all
this video. We're talking about it and everything else. And
I was working weekends at the time. It just barely
had graduated from Michigan's We're working TV ten Action News.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Nice yeah, NBC affiliate Lansing, Michigan.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
And so we're literally sitting in the newsroom on a Sunday, Yeah,
drinking coffee, smoking cigarets.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
This is, you know, nineteen eighty back when you do that.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
Planes basically everywhere, I guess, the worst, the worst health
in the world and the phone rings in the newsroom.
No cell phones in those days, we didn't have pagers.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Phone.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Hey TV ten Action News. Chris Hansen was mister Hanson. Yes,
it was an inmate inside the prison two days after
the riot who said we've been given them from mission
to have a news conference. To Eric grievanceays, head to
Jackson Prison, all right, come on, we get our little yeah, yeah,
bring it. Everyone does is get our little TV ten
Action news you know, station, wagon off and go from
(32:14):
the Lansing bureau to Jackson, show up to let us
in the gate.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
They go to the report to the office.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
They bring us in, and the prison's like, you know,
sixty eighty years old. I mean, it's an old prison.
And we sit down a conference room and interview four
inmates and they tell us the story and I'm still
shre how the hell did this?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
This went from having a good time to doing like the.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Biggest story on that day, and they still makes the
network news and obviously make big news locally. And that
following Tuesday, the riots jump off again and the place
is burning again.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Damn.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
And they didn't let us in the second time. Okay, yeah,
but there was you know it was, you know, we
sort of were making it up as we went along.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Sure are you still doing that in a way?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yeah, I think very much.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I mean, they have you learned from anything you've done,
But like.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
It's all in the fault, you know.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
You know, I'm fortunate enough to have a conversation like
this with somebody who's curious enough to ask these questions
that provoke good answers. You know, it brings back things
that you know, it's nothing different from what we do today.
It's just different technology, different tools, but it's the same attitude.
It's like, look, I get paid to find stuff out,
but once I find it out, I share it with
(33:27):
all of you. That's my job, right And if we
can make great pictures and compelling sound and great.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Interviews, that all loes it together. But that's what we do,
find stuff out and tell the people. That's it. That's
It's that simple.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It is that simple, right. I get asked a lot, like,
you know, just kind of like the morality questions and
like you know, moral compass, like how do you decide
what's right and wrong? And like I feel like that's
such a nuanced thing. That's and I think everyone has
their own personal belief systems and different things everybody and
the you know, for you, like, what do you kind
(34:03):
of like how do you stay straight with you know,
catching a bad guy and balancing those things and what
is that for you?
Speaker 5 (34:12):
Well?
Speaker 4 (34:12):
I think the balance is always you know, tell the
truth in your reporting and don't let any personal biases clouded.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Be sure we'll ask you know all the time about
your politics, and I have the same answer. It's I'm
pro justice and it applies to somebody on one side
of the spectrum as it does to the other side
of the spectrum, and I just don't I.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Don't engage in political theater.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Sure, it's all around us, Yeah, and you can argue
as to whether it's good or bad or someplace in between.
But to me, it's it's you know, we're seekers of
the truth, we're witnesses to the truth, we're documentars of history,
and as long as you're just it's it's about being
painfully obvious, in transparent about your methodology and if if
(34:58):
something ends up being different than you thought, then you
follow that path.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And as long as you stay on the path and
you don't find the truth finding the truth, you know
it may not.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
You may not get the answer in part one. But
if you bring the viewer along on your journey of
discovery and take them inside the commission of a crime
or inside a situation, that is also our job. And
I think that's become the signature part of my reporting
(35:29):
is that we bring people inside this, we take you along.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
It's very in the process your exactly you get the
problem is or one of them I see is that. Yeah,
Like I also like to stay like, you know, the
goal is to find the truth. But the difficult part
of that is that sometimes the journey to finding the
truth is an ugly one.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
It is ugly or the truth itself is very ugly
to joke around in the early days, you know, news
is not pretty.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Right, So like, how do you factor in that?
Speaker 4 (36:00):
I think, you know, you have to use a certain
amount of good taste and judgment in terms of what's
too much depending on which platform you're reporting from. I
can be much more graphic in my podcast when I
get into transcripts of predators I've caught and what they
said and done, because I know who's tuning in and
(36:20):
what they want to hear. When it's uh, you know,
a documentary on mainstream television. You know, our sensibilities have
to be a little different based upon the audience. We
don't shade it, but you know, I may, I'm aware,
you're just aware. I may see something you know, from
a transcript that I wouldn't say on this stage, like
(36:41):
what like you know, a characterization of a word you
wouldn't say normally in public.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I don't really get what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, I think you do say the bad word.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
But again, you know, if you feel uncomfortable saying it,
than in all likelihood people are going.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
To be uncomfortable. They might not like to hear it.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
And again, I'll go to that very edge on the
podcast because I know and if I sanitize it too much,
I'll hear from my audience.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Hey, that's not why we do this, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yes, you know, yes, can we admit that being on
South Park is totally a flex?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Very cool?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
You know, they don't tell you when they do that.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
I'm out in San Francisco going to shoot the night
at air and one of my agents text me and says,
South Park is doing your tonight because the East Coast
time I was on West he.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Said, it's pretty funny, and about twenty minutes later, you're taking.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
A dark turn You're like, oh boy.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Yeah, it was funny because you know, my older kids
were in high school at the time, and you know,
they're at a high school where.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Having a dad on TV wasn't a big deal.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
There were other dads on TV, their dads who you know,
owned you know, sporting teams and were captains of industry
and hedge fonds and everything.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
But when dude, your dad was on Salt Park last
night happened, that was you know, I was at a
whole level of yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Next level shit. I liked that a lot.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
It was right up there at the top.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Do you ever think about your legacy?
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I do sometimes.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Is that important to you?
Speaker 3 (38:21):
I think it is.
Speaker 4 (38:22):
I think anybody who's lived their life in the public
eye for so many years, you know, you want to
leave a legacy beyond you know, the number of Emmys
you've gotten.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Or Edward Armor.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
What is the legacy to you?
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Legacy to me is being remembered as somebody who worked
hard to tell the truth and who made at least
an incremental difference in the safety and goodness in society.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
You know, if you leave this.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
World, you know, a little better off than when you
got here, through your reporting, through your storytelling, if you entertained,
if you educated, if you you know, put some bad
guys away. You know, I'm fine with that. If that's
the legacy, that's great. I'm happy with that.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
What's next for you, Well, I'll be back out in
the streets next week. You know. Well, we got some
of that, and we get these other documentaries that are fascinating.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
We've got a dozen documentaries, ranging from the fentanyl story
I told you about in San Francisco and around the country, to.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
The traditional predator shoots, the takedown stories, to other crime documentaries.
Sextortion is one.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
We really have broadened our ability to get story ideas
from folks like you who reach out on social media,
and because I don't have to be limited by this
traditional network structure, all the meetings and bureaucracy, if I
see something that's hot and moving, I can jump on
it right away. Now, it may be a year before
(39:53):
it gets on TV because of our production schedule or
because the story takes that long to tell, but if
it needs to be on right a way, I can
get it on right away and I've got my own.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Network, so you can.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Basically, basically you're saying.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
If if I saw something tonight, it can be on Monday.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
So you can kind of do what you you want.
So can I come on your show? I just want
to be like in the back seat, like yeah, yeah,
go good on, Chris. This is crazy, Like.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
We need we do need to collaborate on something.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It would be fun.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I'm getting like five different ideas as we sit here
at stage, but I mean that you.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Stay there and smoking cigarette or whatever, eat your sandwich.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
And I would love to and we'll do it. I'm
already the wheels are spinning right now.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
We're going to collaborate and.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
I'm not on a bad guys do it.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, we're going to put you toward Yeah exactly. We
have a couple of minutes left, and I figured just
because everyone is such a fan of yours. I don't
know if we have mics or not, but like if
they wanted to ask a couple of questions, I feel
like it'd be cool to do that. We have like
five minutes talk, so I don't know how we do this. Hi,
(41:05):
Hi laugh, Hello O, Okay, it's me there's actually a.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Life back there.
Speaker 7 (41:10):
But yeah, Chris help them out.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Wait wait what Hi?
Speaker 7 (41:15):
My name's Kathy and it's nice to meet y'all. I'm
a zero chance of the meeting greet, so this is
my chance. So I have a question. As someone who
has probably the best chance of getting a straight answer
from a woman who's a heinous murderer, I've got one
(41:37):
shot at getting the actual truth as to why she
did it. We have a long history and we know
each other very well. What would you say, other than
feel out their personality would be the best way to
get it?
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Well, I guess i'd start, uh, you know, with an
open ended question, and what I would say, Look, you're
in this situation.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
You know that. I know that.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Help me to understand why. Everybody's got a reason. And
if I understand it, then you know I can I
can better accept it or forgive it. But you need
to be honest with it. Just tell me what happened, right,
Give me that piece, don't attack create and the best
(42:31):
interrogators of terrorists and criminals are guys that initiate a conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
And a relationship. If you want a cigarette, do you
want some soup? You want a cup of coffee. What
can I get you? And just look, we're both here, right,
You're not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Just just help me out, give me some peace, help
me to understand what led you to this situation and
what led you to do what you do, and let
them take a deep breath and hold please.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
They tell you the truth.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Damn well, he's a.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
I mean right, absolutely Again, Sometimes it's it's just explained
it to me and don't rush through it.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Just you know, spend some time.
Speaker 7 (43:14):
And if I had to ask anything, what would be
your favorite, most important question that you would ask somebody
other than why the hell did you do that?
Speaker 3 (43:26):
You know, I guess I'd ask you know, what is it?
What what happened to you that made you think this
was a good idea to do?
Speaker 7 (43:36):
Gotcha?
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Or why are you the way that you are?
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Right? Exactly exactly.
Speaker 7 (43:43):
Well, thank you very much, Thank.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
You, Thank you, Chris A big fan. Thank you.
Speaker 8 (43:49):
I did want to ask a question about the new
new phenomenon with the daily, so I was going to
get I met you yesterday, so I was you got
a phone call, so I wanted to ask you in person.
But the almost daily reports of female predators and pedophiles,
and there seems to be a different narrative when it
comes to female abusers. They call it affairs a romantic
(44:14):
relationship when a female abuses a child and essentially as
a pedophile, just the same as men are. But yet
when it's a male as the victim. I'm curious. I
don't believe you. Have you ever caught a female? Do
you target or do you target only men? And why
do you think it's so hard to catch? Because we've
(44:35):
seen how many female predators there are in the news
every day, there's almost a new report of particularly teachers,
but they're all in the community. How come it's hard
to catch female predators online?
Speaker 4 (44:50):
The experts tell us, the behavioral folks tell us, the
therapists tell us that it's because when it comes to
the female predator, they don't like the anonymity of the
online engagements.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
It's happened. It's never happened in our investigations, but it
has happened. And what you're more likely to see is
what you alluded to, what we see virtually every.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
Week, which is a female teacher, teacher's assistant, counselor therapist
engaged in an inappropriate sexual relationship with an underage boy.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
And society does view that. They don't like that.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
They like to know the victim of the target, and
again part of society views that as a little boy's fantasy,
which is wrong because it is illegal and it has
a very definite impact on this child's life. And why
we see all these cases now, I have a couple
of theories. One, I think in the criminal area, you
(45:42):
often see what is being exploited on the porn sites.
Every time we catch a predator who's offended before, there's
a very high likelihood that they've been associated with child porn.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
In some of these cases.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
There's a for instance, a big rise in teacher schoolboy.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Porn on these sites.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
There's a big hike in the amount of step mom
daughter porn and stepfather. It was just crazy to think about,
but it does, and I think that breeds some of
this real life activity and we see that in our stings.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
But the female predators like.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
To know their victim, target their victim, and you know,
I think that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Now. We've commissioned a documentary on.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
It because it is such a huge issue, so there'll
be more on that soon.
Speaker 5 (46:37):
Hi, my name's Vicky. Thank you so much for everything
that you do. You guys were talking about legacy, and
I think a lot of people that come to crime
con we're just general folks and we're just going about
our day, but we admire everything that you all do
for society. And I think a lot of us kind
of sit home and think what can we do? What
can we do? We're not you know, we're not in
(46:59):
the public eye. I were just regular people, and so
what could you say advice for all of us if
we want to get involved, if we want to, what
can we do to kind of be able to make
an impact, even albeit very small, but anything at all, Like,
what can we do?
Speaker 6 (47:16):
Well?
Speaker 3 (47:16):
I think it starts at home.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
It starts in the conversations you have with your children,
your nieces, your nephews, you know, your friend's kids, who
often will tell you stuff that they won't tell their
immediate parents.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And so to have an open conversation and.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
To say, you know, I heard a great story or
actually not a great story, but an interesting story.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
The other day, after the sex Station is Sextortion presentation.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
A gentleman went out to call his seventeen year old
son and say, hey, I.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Just was in this thing. I didn't know anything about it.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
You know, you should know about it because dad had
happened to me when I was fourteen and fortunately didn't
lead to you know, a violent act. But yeah, some
guy tried to do this to me and I never told.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
You about it because I was embarrassed.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
You said, oh my god, son, you know, please know
that you can tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
But again, it's awareness.
Speaker 4 (48:00):
It's it's you know, when you see something that you
think is wrong, or you see something online reported to
the to the to the internet service provider, reported to
the local police, and it may not come to anything,
but at least you generate another element of that database
that one day might be important.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
And connect the dots to another crime.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
Just you know, it sounds corny, but if you see something,
say something you know.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Man to me, it's like you being here right now
and asking that question is.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
Probably already part of that. That's a sense of aware.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
It is right because not everyone's doing that. And like
when I get asked like the legacy question, which is
not that often, but I I don't really know what
to think about that. Maybe like down the road, I'll
look back.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
On it more tory about that.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Yeah, he's like you little shrimp. But I I I'm
so focused on right now and like making sure that's
okay and those things become legacy. It comes about what's
happened already.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
I didn't know what it meant when I was your age, right,
But I.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Think what you're doing now, I think is like that
is there you go. That's already a start asking questions
and learning, and to be honest, that's literally all I'm
still doing. So if that means anything, that's that's what
I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
This young lady in the front row keeps trying to
get our attention.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Oh yes, hey.
Speaker 8 (49:30):
Maybe by.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
Law never not once it may have happened at some point.
I certainly can't speak.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Like if it was someone's friend or something, but friend
but not something conspiracy that we're protecting pedophile.
Speaker 4 (49:57):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I I get I you
know kind of how.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
A teenage Yeah.
Speaker 7 (50:03):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
The investigation, I mean you can.
Speaker 7 (50:08):
Invest in or and the investigation that went forward, and
a lot of it seems to me because.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
His arms had been heard.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Enough like other things in your lives and the powers he.
Speaker 6 (50:23):
Said, and you let it go.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
Yeah, he he's young enough.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Uh, probably totally gets your ure watching him when you will.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Yeah, I mean I've heard of scenarios like that.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
I know the one you're talking about, but I I
don't have first hand knowledge that I I'm looking into
a couple of situations never happened to me though.
Speaker 6 (50:47):
Yes, right, sorry, No, we gotta go so real quick.
Thank you both for everything else done. I'm like fangirling
right now.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (50:55):
But so knowing what you know. We know about sex
crimes being the worst thing that could happen to a child,
and then the psychological effects, suicide rates, et cetera. The laws,
A lot of the people that you do catch, especially
if it's their first time that year coming in and
they didn't do the act. It's probation and the sex
offender list, and we know just from all these documentaries
(51:16):
like three Sex Offenders. We're working at Nickelodeon, you know,
and so it's just like with all of them being
around us at all times and just living on the streets.
I'm just wondering what the evolution of the law, if
you've seen it over your years doing this, the laws
cracking down harder. I think it's frustrating, and why the
vigilantes kind of step in is because most of them
(51:38):
get little to no time probation and then sex offendry list. Sarah,
I'm just curious if there's getting any better with the
laws state to state.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
It does vary from state to state, and I know
that you know, one guy can do the same thing
in Polk County, Florida and go away for two years,
and can do it someplace else and get As you said,
probation and registration is a sex offender And the truth
of it is, it does vary in jurisdictions. If you're
in Genesee County, Flint, Michigan, where there are one hundred
(52:10):
murders waiting to be prosecuted, and you've got a first
time offender who've got contonesting who's willing to plead and
go one probation, go to sex offender you know, therapy,
and go on on the list, They're likely to take
that and mark it down as a conviction. Should this
guy go.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Away forever, you know that's prole and probation. Folks have
to court services have to take.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
A look at that and score them as to whether
or not they'll offend again when they do, it's horrendous
and it creates, you know, a horrible impact on society,
and it makes the system re examine itself I as
you might imagine, and more for the send them to
jail for a bit, you know, get their attention, and
(52:53):
if it's a second offense, they should go away forever.
But we have gone from seeing stings in California where
the judges treated this as a you know, a TV
reality show.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
Even though law enforcement was involved too. You know, some
of these guys, if they've been clipped before, they will
go away for a long time.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
And and we've seen some thirty year sentences and some
heavy duty sentences if if there's more than one offense here.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
So it's not perfect. I'm not happy with all the jurisdictions.
Speaker 4 (53:25):
I provide my services and my input whenever I can
to get greater sentences, and you know, you sometimes just
hope for the best.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Thank you, thank you, well, thank you guys. You've been amazing.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
I appreciate it. But it's always a pleasure. It's it's
easy with you. Thanks. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 9 (53:52):
Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and
iHeart Podcast created and hosted by Paynton Lindsay. For Tenorfoot TV,
executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive
producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup
(54:12):
and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,
Sean Nerney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wild for Cohedo. Production
support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing
and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover
art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website
(54:33):
Talking to Death podcast dot com.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.
This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you
want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe
to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus
dot com
Host
Payne Lindsey
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